Mental Health Bill [HL]

Baroness Parminter Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 20th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)]

My Lords, this is an important set of amendments, and, as the noble Earl, Lord Howe, said, they are central to decisions about whether to detain people under the Act.

I agree that the definition of “serious harm” is important, and it would be helpful to hear from the Minister what the Government are thinking there, how it will be applied, and how any thresholds will be established.

I endorse what the noble Earl had to say about children and young people, what a huge decision it is to detain someone under 18 in hospital against their will, and how hard we need to work to avoid that, whenever that is safe for themselves and other people.

Finally, and very much linked to that, I strongly support Amendment 139 on the availability of community-based services, which we have already talked about and which we will turn to in subsequent groupings. It is a very good amendment, particularly the provision which states:

“The Secretary of State must publish a report to assess whether there should be more community-based services for community patients in order to prevent”—


I see this as a key preventive measure—

“detention under the Mental Health Act 1983”.

My one point is that the amendment talks about publishing that within two years of the day on which this Act is passed. I personally think that in an ideal world we might see a report a bit earlier than that. However, as I say, Amendment 139 certainly has my full support.

[Baroness Parminter (LD)]

I am sorry that I did not jump up in time before my Front Bench spoke.

I just wanted to add my voice to support Amendment 139 in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Howe, and the report on community-based services. It is really timely and we need it. The case was made very carefully and well by others, so I will not expand much other than to say that an extensive report was done in November by the leading charity, Beat, which looked at the case for more intensive community care and daycare for people with eating disorders in order to avoid—the very point that the noble Earl, Lord Howe, made—ending up getting to such a point of severity that they need to go into mental health facilities and be detained, which indeed happened to my daughter, as I made clear at Second Reading.

The case has been well made that a report should be made. I agree with my noble friend Lady Tyler that two years seems quite a long time off, particularly as recent work has been done, particularly in the field of eating disorders, to show that you can both reduce the number of patients and reduce the cost if you make the investment up front in community services.

[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)]

My Lords, as an ex-community mental health nurse, I wish in particular to support Amendment 139. I am convinced that we need appropriate ratios of such staff to deliver preventive services in the community as well as ongoing support. We need to remember that the NHS rests in the future on preventing rather than treating, and this is an important amendment that acknowledges that.

Mental Health Bill [HL]

Baroness Parminter Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 20th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, I support Amendments 44 and 66. The Joint Committee on which I serve recommended that community treatment orders be abolished for Part II patients. That recommendation is supported by organisations such as Mind. That is partly due to the awful racial disparity statistics—you are up to 11 times more likely to be under a CTO if you are from a black or Caribbean background—combined with a lack of evidence that CTOs reduce hospital admissions. It took a brave gulp, even as the Joint Committee, to recommend that. The independent review had not gone as far as that, but it was in the report of the Joint Committee.

I, too, like the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, recognise the powerful speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, at Second Reading. I remember that, because of the extremely tight timetable the Joint Committee was given, it did not have time to consider in detail eating disorders or personality disorders, which was regrettable.

I can see from the reasons the noble Baroness outlined that there may be a case for retaining CTOs, perhaps even just for eating disorders. To quote her words from Second Reading, a CTO

“puts a boundary around the eating disorder … that a voluntary agreement could not, in that it makes it clear what will be the result”.—[Official Report, 25/11/24; col. 555.]

The Bill outlines protocols for specific treatments, such as ECT, so it seems possible in principle to have the law apply to specific disorders.

Most reluctantly, I have not made an amendment in Committee in support of the Joint Committee’s recommendation. But the independent review stated that “action is required”. We must not lose sight of that urgency. There are significant problems with CTOs. The argument that is proffered—that they help and are the least restrictive measure for a very small number of patients—is not a good basis for retaining them, bearing in mind the enormous harm they are doing on the other side. I ask the Minister to look for another way, going forward, to help this small group, and not to ask racialised communities to, once again, pay such a high cost for such a small group of patients.

In the Joint Committee’s report, it seemed that the group of patients we were talking about were unrestricted patients under Part III of the Act. Bearing in mind that 79% of CTOs are under Part II, which is for civilian patients, can we look in detail at the evidence to find out which small group of patients we are talking about? There are particular issues, according to our report, if a restraint or restriction is being used on people when the small group of patients seems to be within the forensic context rather than under Part II.

I ask the Minister to put CTOs where they need to be, as a result of these amendments. The independent review said that they should be in the last chance saloon. We must be careful not to lose the urgency that the independent review gave to these issues. Although I support Amendment 66, tabled by my noble friends, it is the very least we can do. The restrictions outlined in Amendment 44 are about ending them after a certain period, because part of the problem is that they go on and on, rolling over for years and years. That coercive effect on certain communities seems to remain, as the path of least resistance.

[Baroness Parminter (LD)]

My Lords, I want to say a few things about a couple of the amendments. I thank noble Lords for listening and for recognising the situation. It was powerful to hear that, and I am sure that many in the eating disorder community will be delighted to hear it.

I will not repeat what I said at Second Reading, as there seems no need, but in mentioning that, I want to support the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, which picks out the focus on community care and the need for more psychiatrists. I and others have made the case for why CTOs can be valuable for people with eating disorders—and for forensic patients, I understand. The value of the CTO is that the individual is helped to engage in the community with their mental health team. It is a multidisciplinary team, but the anchor is the psychiatrist. The noble Baroness was not sure if this was the right place to put her amendment because it has wider ramifications, but it certainly has value in this debate. CTOs, which I believe should be retained, can work only if there are proper multi-disciplinary teams anchored by a psychiatrist in the community, so that those individuals can be kept out of detained settings and engaged in the community. I thank her for bringing that forward, and I support it.

With regard to Amendment 44, I do not support a maximum duration for a community treatment order, because this is about the individual and what they decide, with their multidisciplinary team. What I like about the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, is that it rightly says that we have to review community treatment orders. People’s mental health situations change, and it is important to have step points at which people know they will be reviewed. I do not support a maximum time limit but the break points, which his probing amendment talks about, are worthy of further debate and discussion. I am grateful to him for bringing that forward.

I say with regret that I do not agree so much with the support of the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, for retaining the automatic referral to a tribunal of any CTO that is lifted. Again, that goes against my sense that CTOs are about what is right for the individual. With eating disorders, there will be cases of CTOs being lifted because the person is no longer able to engage with the community team because the eating order has gone beyond the bounds of the CTO and is compromising their health and putting them, bluntly, at risk of death. I do not see why, in those circumstances, there needs to be an automatic referral to a tribunal. Strengthening people’s rights to go to a tribunal where there is a case for that is right and proper, but, because of my view about personalised care—especially for eating disorders, but this has wider ramifications—I do not support the case for automatic referral.

I know that there are people around the Committee who understand the concerns far better than me, particularly about the high preponderance of people in the black community who are on CTOs. I understand and hear that concern. I tried to get to the bottom of the figures, like the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, to find out how many forensic patients were on CTOs. Given that you are four times more likely to be in prison if you are a black person than a white person, I tried to work out what the figures were to get the correlation to say whether it is because there are more people in prison that CTOs are preponderantly in the black community. I could not work that out. Equally, I could not work out how many people with eating disorders were on CTOs. I got the Library to try to help me, and it said that the figures are not cut that way and do not work that way. It seems to me that there is an issue about the data that we, and the Minister, are working with to make informed decisions.

I am not sure about the exact terms and conditions of the review that has been proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, and which in a later group is proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, but I think there is an issue about the data out there. It is not helping us, or anyone else, make CTOs work for those where they can work, are working and should work in the future, and is clearly causing a problem. We need to get to the bottom of that.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken on this group. I will speak to Amendment 66 in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Howe. One of the motivations when we were considering amendments from our Benches was not only to respond to concerns raised by stakeholders but to probe the Government on why they did not accept some of the recommendations of the pre-legislative Joint Committee. That is the nature of these amendments. To the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, I say that the amendment is meant as a probing amendment to ask the Government why they have not adopted all the recommendations of the Joint Committee.

One of the things that drives many of us—I feel particularly strongly about this, given my background—is why so many people of an Afro-Caribbean background are being detained or are subject to CTOs. The noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, made a valuable point. One of the reasons I have tabled other amendments along those lines, which will be discussed in later groups, is that, after all these years of saying that too many people from the black community are being detained, if we want to do something about it, we need data, and we need to understand why they are being detained. Without the data, it is left to rumour or speculation, or people make up reasons. Everything needs to be driven by the data if we are to address the fact that a disproportionate number of black people are detained.

We tabled Amendment 66 because the pre-legislative committee recommended that community treatment orders be abolished for Part II patients, those not in the criminal justice system, and wanted a statutory process and timeline to be put in place for the review and potential abolition—I say those words from the Joint Committee’s recommendation very carefully—for Part III patients, those involved with the criminal justice system.

Many noble Lords came to the Second Reading debate wanting to see an end to community treatment orders, and many noble Lords have spoken tonight about this. We were all struck by the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, and of the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, who very honestly said that, having listened to patients and families, she knows that there is a small group of people for whom CTOs work, are the least restrictive option and are beneficial, and we should therefore keep them. I was particularly struck by that. The noble Baroness, Lady Fox, said that people do not change their mind very often, but the views that we brought to the debate in the first place have been challenged.

The noble Baroness, Lady Barker, made the important point that, while she is reluctant to admit it, she believes that there should be a change in the process around CTOs. That is important. This is why this probing amendment is asking for a comprehensive review of CTOs. We have listed a number of criteria that should be in that review, but I know that many noble Lords have concerns over CTOs.

Mental Health Bill [HL]

Baroness Parminter Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 25th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Parminter (LD)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Adebowale. I will not have quite as many questions for the Minister as he had, but I very much agree with what he says about community treatment orders, which I will return to at the end of my remarks. Like many other Peers, I welcome the Bill, which I hope will improve the treatment of people who are detained when they need to be, for their safety and other people’s, because they are in mental crisis. As others have said, it is a long time coming, and I very much congratulate the Government on bringing it forward so early in their term.

I am not an expert in the field, unlike just about everybody else in this debate, and nor do I have scars on my back from considerations of the legislation in the past. I come to it as someone with lived experience of the impacts of the deadliest of all the mental health conditions, eating disorders, and, in the context of the Bill, as the mother of a daughter who was sectioned aged 17. I know that sectioning is hard. It is hard for the individual: they are separated from their loved ones and the people who care, they cannot do what they want, and they are not where they want to be. It is hard for families and loved ones who are trying to navigate the system. But I know that sectioning works. It saves lives. It saved my daughter’s life when she was in the grips of an extremely vicious eating disorder. She was so malnourished that she could not even allow anyone to feed her by a nasogastric tube, and the state had to step in and save her life. She went to a hospital more than 100 miles away. She was initially restrained and then kept there for five months. We visited her and they kept her safe. At the end of those five months, we were able to bring her home. She was treated in the community by the NHS team, and we are grateful for that care.

I know that detention works, but as the noble Baroness, Lady Watkins, rightly said, we would need less of that detention if there were more provision of community services all around the country so that people could be treated quickly and appropriately. We know that will require more funding, and that was a point that the noble Lord, Lord Adebowale, raised very well. It will require a bigger workforce, and it will require those community services to support people when they need it.

It will also need more specialist beds, and these are particularly needed in the field of eating disorders. At the moment, there are only 251 NHS beds in our country and 198 in the independent sector of specialist adult eating disorder services. The Bill covers England and Wales, but there are no beds at all in Wales. Yet we know that they are absolutely needed. Beat, the leading charity for eating disorders, estimates that about 1.25 million people in this country have an eating disorder. Mental health eating disorder services are absolutely up to the gunnels and beyond, and since 2010 the number of hospital admissions for eating disorders has quadrupled from 7,000 to 28,000—so there is a real pressure point.

When my daughter Rose needed an eating disorder bed, one was not available. She was kept for a month on an adult general ward in the local hospital, where her condition deteriorated to the extent that she had to be sectioned. We need more of these beds. It is no good if we just spend all our time in this Chamber focusing on the particulars of this very small but important part of the Mental Health Bill, on detentions, if the Government do not also grasp the nettle about the need for more beds for people when they really need them.

The other worrying aspect about not having beds is that it stops the mental health law being applied in the first place. The 1983 Act insists that local areas make arrangements for beds in urgent circumstances. I was talking to Dr Ashish Kumar, the chair of the eating disorder faculty at the Royal College of Psychiatrists, who told me that

“even after two medical recommendations, clinicians are not allowed to apply the section because the tier 4 (inpatient unit) services do not offer them a bed. Hence this is a silent crisis—where these seriously unwell patients are not admitted to psychiatry wards or given the opportunity to have a legal provision of the MHAct applied … The whole legal provision is disregarded in a very high number of cases”.

Therefore, I ask the Minister to reassure us—in summing up today and, I am sure, in Committee—that the Government will put equal focus on ensuring that there is community provision for people with eating disorders to minimise the need for people to go into beds, and that there will always be sufficient beds for people with severe eating disorders who really need it.

I agree very much with the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Adebowale, about community treatment orders. It pains me to disagree with the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, for whom I have the highest regard, and with Mind. When we faced Rose being sectioned, the place we turned to for advice to understand the Mental Health Act, as parents literally pushed into it, was Mind and its fantastic website, and I pay tribute to it for that. But I believe that for eating disorders, community treatment orders can be very beneficial.

If you are sectioned for an eating disorder, it is because your condition is such that you are at risk. When you come to be released, you are at high risk, even if you have community support, of losing weight quickly and facing an urgent readmission. That is because the complexity and the tyranny of the eating disorder mean that the person cannot, of their own volition, maintain their weight. A community treatment order puts a boundary around the eating disorder in a way that a voluntary agreement could not, in that it makes it clear what will be the result and what will result in an in-patient setting.

Eating disorders are a really complex battle of control. The person with an eating disorder feels that they are completely out of control, but they are desperate for control. A community treatment order gives them control by not keeping them in a hospital, but it also gives them some sense of control through the terms of the order: they know what is going to happen. Let us not forget that it also gives some control to the community treatment team, who do not have to wait for a medical emergency in order to readmit if that is needed.

I contend that if it is done in the right way—in an open and consultative manner, with the intention of supporting that person to live in the community and access their community care—a community treatment order can be uniquely beneficial for people with eating disorders. It has the benefit of keeping that person out of hospital, and the restriction is on the eating disorder and not on the person. In Committee, I hope to carry on making the case for people with eating disorders and their carers, alongside the many other experts in this field, so that we can ensure that this welcome Bill is as good as it needs to be.