(4 days, 9 hours ago)
Grand Committee
Baroness Lloyd of Effra
That the Grand Committee do consider the Employment Rights Act 1996 (Application of Section 80B to Parental Order Cases) (Amendment) Regulations 2026.
(4 days, 9 hours ago)
Grand Committee
Baroness Lloyd of Effra
That the Grand Committee do consider the Employment Rights Act 1996 (Application of Section 80B to Adoptions from Overseas) (Amendment) Regulations 2026.
(4 days, 9 hours ago)
Grand Committee
Baroness Lloyd of Effra
That the Grand Committee do consider the Bereaved Partner’s Paternity Leave Regulations 2026.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business and Trade and Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Baroness Lloyd of Effra) (Lab)
My Lords, in moving these regulations, which were laid on 13 January, I will speak also to the Employment Rights Act 1996 (Application of Section 80B to Adoptions from Overseas) (Amendment) Regulations 2026 and the Employment Rights Act 1996 (Application of Section 80B to Parental Order Cases) (Amendment) Regulations 2026.
First, let me express my appreciation to my noble friend Lady Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent for successfully steering the Private Member’s Bill through this House to Royal Assent in 2024. I also thank the honourable Member for Bridgend, who was instrumental in guiding the Bill through the other place. I pay particular tribute to Aaron Horsey, who has campaigned with remarkable dedication on behalf of bereaved fathers following the tragic loss of his wife Bernadette shortly after the birth of their son, Tim; Aaron joins us here today.
The Parental Leave (Bereavement) Act 2024 established a new statutory entitlement to bereaved partner’s paternity leave of up to 52 weeks for employed fathers and partners if the mother or primary adopter dies in the first year of a child’s life or adoption. The Bereaved Partner’s Paternity Leave Regulations 2026 outline the details of this entitlement. The further two sets of regulations ensure that those having a baby through international adoption or surrogacy arrangements are in scope for leave.
Currently, fathers and partners in these tragic circumstances who do not qualify for paternity leave or shared parental leave must rely on the compassion of their employers to take adequate time off work to care for their child. Although the Employment Rights Act removes the continuity of service requirements for paternity leave, fathers and partners remain limited to a maximum of two weeks’ statutory leave. Bereaved partner’s paternity leave will plug this gap to ensure that bereaved partners are guaranteed a longer period off work to care for their child.
Thankfully, the number of people who face this situation is low. Each year, there are around 180 maternal deaths within 12 months of childbirth. We estimate that around half of those eligible will take up this leave, meaning that these regulations are likely to support about 90 bereaved partners each year. Some partners may be eligible for shared parental leave, which accounts for the reduced figure.
Bereaved partner’s paternity leave is a day one right, meaning that there is no continuity of service requirement. Bereaved fathers and partners will be able to start taking leave from the day after the death of the mother or primary adopter. The leave must end on the child’s first birthday or the first anniversary of their adoption, unless it is necessary to go beyond this date to ensure that an employee is always entitled to at least two weeks of leave.
To be eligible, the bereaved partner must be an employee rather than a worker or self-employed. They must be the child’s father or the mother’s or adopter’s spouse, civil partner or partner at the time of the mother’s or adopter’s death. They must also have main responsibility for the child’s upbringing and be taking the leave for the purpose of caring for the child. Together, these regulations will ensure that employees who lose their partner in the time surrounding childbirth or adoption will have access to a guaranteed period of leave to care for a new child.
The notice requirements reflect that an individual will be in a devastating and unforeseeable situation immediately after their partner’s death. Therefore, to start the leave in the first eight weeks after their partner’s death, they can give notice informally, any time before they are due to start work on their first day of absence. This could, for example, be a text message or a phone call to their employer. To take more than eight weeks after their partner has died, an employee must give one week’s notice in writing. This longer and more formal notice period balances the needs of employers with the flexibility needed by employees in these tragic circumstances.
Taking bereaved partner’s paternity leave will not affect a parent’s ability to take any other family leave entitlements they qualify for, such as shared parental leave. However, the entitlement must be taken in one continuous block. If an employee takes bereaved partner’s paternity leave to care for a child, and the child sadly passes away or an adoption placement ends, the bereaved partner will still be entitled to eight weeks of leave. This reflects that the leave is designed to support care responsibilities during an exceptionally difficult time. This approach is consistent with other forms of parental leave, such as adoption leave, helping to maintain a clear and coherent framework across family related entitlements.
Employees on bereaved partner’s paternity leave will be entitled to redundancy protections while on leave, regardless of how much leave they take. They will also be protected for 18 months from the birth or placement for adoption if they take six weeks or more continuous leave. This is equivalent to the protections given to those who take shared parental leave and neonatal care leave.
The Government have assessed the impact of bereaved partner’s paternity leave on businesses and found it to be minimal. We estimate an annual cost of approximately £0.9 million to businesses, mainly from reorganising work during employee absence. As the entitlement is unpaid, the cost is limited, and we considered the measures necessary and proportionate, given the tragic circumstances in which they will apply.
The Government appreciate the challenges businesses face in fulfilling their duties towards their employees. My officials are working with ACAS to ensure that guidance is available. The Government will also publish this guidance on 6 April on GOV.UK.
I take this moment to thank all those who have been involved in the development of the bereaved partner’s paternity leave. I hope they are as proud as I am of the difference this will make to families in one of the darkest periods of their lives.
My Lords, these Benches offer our wholehearted support for these regulations, and I know our colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Palmer of Childs Hill, if he were not involved in the Chamber on the Crime and Policing Bill, would join me in supporting them.
The sort of circumstances we are speaking of can be some of the most devastating circumstances and experiences. This is the sort of grief that does not pause, that does not observe working hours and that demands time, space and the presence of everyone in support. At least, then, the grief can be borne. I pay tribute, as has the Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Lloyd of Effra, to those who have secured—
I pay tribute, as did the Minister, to those who have secured this important step forward. Of course, we on these Benches know this terrain. It was His Majesty’s Official Opposition when in government who laid the foundation upon which these regulations rest. The Parental Bereavement (Leave and Pay) Act 2018 was a measure of which I and my party are proud. It was one of the most humane pieces of legislation of recent decades; a recognition by the state that the law must sometimes speak not in the language of productivity or commerce but in the language of compassion. Fathers must not be left behind, and these regulations are a welcome step forwards to ensure they are not.
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, for his compassion and understanding of the issue and his support for the regulations. They represent an important step forward and will ensure that fathers and partners who experience this unimaginable loss are afforded the protection, stability and support they need in an exceptionally difficult and unforeseeable period in their lives. I commend the instrument to the Committee.
(1 month ago)
Lords Chamber
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business and Trade and Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Baroness Lloyd of Effra) (Lab)
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Hunt for initiating this important debate on an important topic, and all noble Lords from around the House for their contributions today. This Government believe that advanced AI has transformative potential for the UK: from scientific innovation and public service reform to economic growth, as many noble Lords have set out today. However, as we realise these benefits, we need to make sure that AI remains secure and controllable. New technologies bring with them novel risks, and we have heard today from many noble Lords the directions in which technology might take us.
As has been mentioned, the UK is committed to a context-based regulatory approach whereby most AI systems are regulated at the point of use and by our existing regulators, who are best placed to understand the risks and the context of AI deployment in their sectors. Regulators are already acting. The ICO has released guidance on AI and data protection, and last year Ofcom published its strategic approach to AI, which sets out how it is addressing AI-related risks. My noble friend asked about Ofcom’s expertise and resources. Ofcom has recruited expert online safety teams from various sectors, including regulation, tech platforms, law enforcement, civil society and academia, and is being resourced to step up and regulate in this area. The FCA has also announced a review into how advances in AI could transform financial services.
As my noble friend also mentioned, the Government are working proactively with regulators, through both the Digital Regulation Cooperation Forum and the Regulatory Innovation Office, to ensure that regulators have the capabilities to regulate what we see today and anticipate regulations that may be needed in the future, both in respect of AI and of other scientific and technological developments in other areas that are coming towards us. We heard many suggestions today on how we might regulate further. The Government are prepared to step up to the challenges of AI and take further action. We will keep your Lordships’ House updated on any proposals in this area. However, I am unable to speculate on any further legislation ahead of parliamentary announcements.
We have heard a lot of testament to the abilities and expertise of the AI Security Institute. Equally, as other Lords have mentioned—the noble Lord, Lord Tarassenko, brought precision to the definitions here—we cannot be sure how AI will develop and impact society over the next five, 10 or 20 years. We need to navigate this future based on evidence-based foresight to inform action with technical solutions and global co-ordination.
We should be very proud of our world-leading AI Security Institute: it is the centre of UK expertise, advancing our scientific understanding of the capabilities and the associated risks. Close collaboration with AI labs has ensured that the institute has been able to test more than 30 models to understand their potentially harmful capabilities, and we think this is the best way to proceed. It is having a real-world impact. The institute’s testing is making models safer, with findings being used by industry to strengthen AI model safeguards. It is carrying out foundational research to discover methods for building AI systems that are beneficial, reliable and aligned with human values.
One of the AISI’s priorities is tracking the development of AI capabilities that would contribute to AI’s ability to evade human control, which has been raised many times in the debate today. It supports research in this field through the alignment project, a funding consortium distributing £15 million to accelerate research projects. To ensure that the Government act on these insights, the institute works with the Home Office, NCSC and other national security organisations to share its evidence for the most serious risks posed by AI.
The noble Baronesses, Lady Foster and Lady Neville-Jones, spoke about the risks associated with AI cyber capabilities. We are closely monitoring those, in terms of both the risks posed and the solutions for combating the cyber risks that AI can contribute. We have developed the AI Cyber Security Code of Practice to help secure AI systems and the organisations that develop and deploy them. That is another example of the UK setting standards that can be followed by others—another point made by noble Lords today, when they spoke about how the UK can contribute to the safe development of AI. The institute will continue to evaluate and scan the horizon to ensure we focus our research on the most critical risks.
As has been pointed out, AI is being developed in many nations and will also have impacts across borders and across societies, so international collaboration is essential. The Deputy Prime Minister set out to the UN Security Council last autumn the United Kingdom’s commitment to using AI responsibly, safely, legally and ethically. We continue to work with international partners to achieve this.
The AI Security Institute is world leading, with global impact. Since December it has assumed the role of co-ordinator for the International Network for Advanced AI Measurement, Evaluation and Science. That brings together 10 countries, including Commonwealth countries such as Canada, Australia and Kenya, and the US, the EU and Singapore, to shape and advance the science of AI evaluations globally. That is important because boosting public trust in the technology is vital to AI adoption. It helps to unlock groundbreaking innovations, deliver new jobs and forge new opportunities for business innovators to scale up and succeed. The UK has shaped the passage of key international AI initiatives such as the Global Dialogue on AI Governance and the Independent International Scientific Panel on AI—both at the UN—and the framework convention on AI at the Council of Europe. The convention is the world’s first international agreement on AI and considers it with regard to the Council’s remit of human rights, democracy and the rule of law, seeking to establish a clear international baseline that grounds AI in our shared values.
I shall close by talking about the importance not only of the UK taking the risks of AI seriously, but of our conviction that it will be a driver of national renewal, and of our ambition to be a global leader in the development and deployment of AI. This is the way that will keep us safest of all. Our resilience and strategic advantage are based on our being competitive in an AI-enabled world. It matters who influences and builds the models, data and AI infrastructure.
That is why we are supporting a full plan, including our sovereign AI unit, which is investing over £500 million to help innovative UK start-ups expand and seed in the AI sector. It is why we are progressing the infrastructure level, including the announcement of five AI growth zones across the UK, accelerating the delivery of data centres. It is why we are expanding National Compute and why we are equipping all people—students and workers—with digital and AI skills. We want to benefit from AI’s transformative power, so we need to adopt it as well as manage its risks. That is why we have also committed to looking at the impact of AI on our workforce through the AI and future of work unit. We are working domestically and collaborating internationally to facilitate responsible innovation, ensuring that the UK stands to benefit from all that AI has to offer.
(1 month ago)
Lords ChamberMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper, and declare my interests as an adviser and investor in start-ups.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business and Trade and Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Baroness Lloyd of Effra) (Lab)
My Lords, the latest ONS figures highlight the continued resilience of UK entrepreneurship. One-year survival rates have also remained strong, holding at over 93% in recent years. Furthermore, the percentage of adults starting or running a new business in the UK in 2024 was 14%, as opposed to 12% in 2023, remaining above France, Germany and Italy. This underscores the ability of new British firms to establish themselves successfully.
I thank the Minister for her response, but I think it is fair to say that key data on our start-ups is missing in action. Since the enterprise investment scheme was introduced 30 years ago, I have calculated that £40 billion has been invested in EIS start-ups, triggering £12 billion in tax credits. I declare an interest in that I am a beneficiary. And yet what has been the economic impact? What is a true success rate of these start-ups? How many permanent jobs have been created and sustained? What is their net contribution to GDP? And what is the return on investment of that £12 billion from the public purse? If the Minister is unable to answer these questions, can I suggest that her colleagues at the Department for Business and Trade knock heads with the ONS so that they can produce this data?
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
The evidence from HMRC’s 2022 evaluation shows that 75% of enterprise investment scheme companies strongly agreed that finance led their company to grow. As the noble Lord is aware, in the Budget the Government introduced an entrepreneurship tax package to support innovative young companies, doubling the eligibility of the EIS. At the same time, the Treasury is running a call for evidence to gather evidence on how well existing support is working, including the EIS, and on options for further support. The questions that the noble Lord asked will be addressed, at least in part, by the consultation that the Treasury is launching now.
Baroness Kingsmill (Lab)
My Lords, I too have been very much involved in start ups, including chairing a fintech. At the moment, the real issue for start-ups is scalability. I wonder what the Government can do to assist companies and the brilliant entrepreneurs that we produce in this country in scaling up their businesses.
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
My noble friend raises the equally important point that, as well as supporting start-ups, we need to support scale-ups. One initiative that the Government have taken is the entrepreneurship prospectus, which takes action on four important areas that create the ecosystem for companies not only to establish themselves but to thrive. That includes: on R&D, focusing public research firepower on priority sectors; changing the procurement rules and approach so that the Government are a better customer for innovative businesses, which is something that scale-ups often raise with us; the changes to tax reliefs, which I mentioned; and strengthening the ability of public finance institutions to invest at series B and beyond.
My Lords, many SMEs and start-up businesses are facing a challenging time, not just because of high taxation but because they are heavily regulated as well. To open a bank account can take as much as three months, registering VAT takes time and a contract with a lawyer could be as much as 60 pages. Can the Minister give us an assurance that the Government will look into all this? We should genuinely be celebrating wealth creation and help our GDP.
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
The UK has an extremely strong track record as a vibrant ecosystem for start-ups and scale-ups, and that is something the Government are committed to building on—hence, as I mentioned, the entrepreneurship package. Specifically on regulation, we are not sitting still on that either. We have announced, as part of our regulation action plan, a commitment to reduce the administrative burden on all businesses by 25%. We have already announced several specific measures to ease the regulatory burden for smaller companies. For example, we announced in October 2025 that we would exempt tens of thousands of companies from producing strategic and directors’ reports. We are looking carefully across all departments at how we can optimise regulation. In addition, through the Regulatory Innovation Office, we are looking at how to regulate new technologies that perhaps do not fit within the existing regulatory purview, such as drones or novel foods.
Lord Fox (LD)
My Lords, I am pleased to hear that the Government are going out and looking for evidence. I want to add another sector that has not really been mentioned here. From my meetings with businesses, there is a whole section of businesses—a large lump—with perhaps 100 employees, which are successful and are doing well, and are often family owned or privately owned, but they find it difficult to get the capital they need, not to turn themselves into unicorns but perhaps to double in size or get half the size again. Can the Minister take on board that sector? Can she discuss with colleagues how those firms can get access to the finance they need? That incremental growth would make a big difference to our economy.
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
As noble Lords may know, we are supporting our public finance institutions. We are increasing the capitalisation of the British Business Bank, which can play a role in this area, complemented by the National Wealth Fund’s new mandate, which includes a focus on other sectors such as digital and technology. As the noble Lord is aware, we are also acting over the longer term, which may take a little longer, to increase the amount of capital that domestic pension funds can allocate to private assets, including through the Mansion House Accord and the Sterling 20 group, in order to continue to support businesses getting access to finance in the UK.
My Lords, I am a member of the expert advisory council of the Government’s Help to Grow: Management scheme set up by Rishi Sunak when he was Chancellor, which this Government have happily continued. Some 10,000 businesses have graduated from this, but is the Minister aware that only businesses with five to 249 employees are eligible for the scheme? Micro-businesses, including start-ups, which make up 90% of SMEs in this country have fewer than five employees and so are not eligible for this programme. Will the Government consider expanding this very successful programme to include micro-businesses?
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
I am happy to take away that question and consult with colleagues on it. The noble Lord is right that businesses of all sizes make up the huge vibrancy of our economy and we must think about the right intervention from government and the private sector to help them to grow.
My Lords, if the Government are as keen on entrepreneurship as the Minister keeps suggesting, why did the Chancellor in her last Budget reduce the tax relief for venture capital trusts, which I set up in my last Budget in 1997 precisely to encourage the kind of investment she is so enthusiastic about?
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
I thank the noble Lord for his question. We expanded the eligibility for various schemes to support entrepreneurs and scale-up businesses such as the enterprise management incentives and the enterprise investment scheme. I will need to consult with Treasury colleagues specifically on venture capital trusts, because I believe that we increased the investment limits for venture capital trusts but the nature of his question suggests otherwise.
My Lords, does the Minister share my concern that an increasing number of entrepreneurs are saying that Britain is becoming an increasingly unattractive place to grow a business? Given that AI start-ups, in particular, depend on access to powerful data centres for success, the principal barrier that she could address is that we have the highest electricity prices in Europe. Will she now set out a clear strategy to reduce electricity costs so that AI companies can realistically build scale and remain in Britain?
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
Our approach to the AI opportunity is comprehensive. It includes the AI growth zones which are being announced and include full access to energy as part of the package as well as local skills packages of £5 million per area to ensure that local areas benefit from these AI growth zones.
(1 month, 1 week ago)
Lords Chamber
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business and Trade and Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Baroness Lloyd of Effra) (Lab)
We are aware of the case brought in the United States. No parent should have to go through what these parents have. Our deepest sympathies are with those affected. We have commenced powers through the Online Safety Act to require information from services about a child’s online activity in the tragic event of their death. We have also established a data preservation process to ensure that services preserve relevant data. We are committed to making those powers work effectively.
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for her reply. Ellen Roome is one of a number of bereaved British parents who are suing TikTok. Ellen had been fighting for four years to get access to her son Jools’s social media account after he died performing a TikTok challenge. Digital data that should be preserved as evidence in the critical early period following a child’s death is not being requested and is routinely being deleted or lost. Justice must prevail. Will the Government ensure that there is automatic digital data preservation for every one of these tragedies so that they can be fully investigated?
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
The Government are aware of calls to make the data preservation process faster. These are new powers and we are actively monitoring the effectiveness of the current process, working closely with Ofcom to do this. We are carefully considering any means that could allow relevant data to be preserved in a timely manner to ensure investigations are well informed and families get the answers they need.
My Lords, the litigation alleges that TikTok’s algorithm deliberately promoted harmful content to children. That is exactly what we originally thought the Online Safety Act was going to help protect our children from, but that appears to be wrong. Will the Government, given their statement of strategic priorities, insert a statutory definition of safety by design and require Ofcom specifically to address addictive algorithms and compulsive design features?
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
The noble Lord will be aware of the Statement that the Technology Secretary made last week to initiate a short consultation looking at further measures that could be taken, which responds to some of the questions that underlie his question about the nature of social media use and actions that could be taken in response to parental and other requests to deal with it—for example, looking at breaks to stop excessive doomscrolling, or further enforcement of the law. That consultation will take place swiftly before the summer.
My Lords, the noble Baroness says—and I absolutely believe her—that she personally and the Government will do everything they can to address these issues. Is she aware that later today we will debate a group of amendments to the Crime and Policing Bill that would very simply close the gap and ensure that coroners and the police have access to the digital and social media data they need? Those amendments would put an end to the unimaginable pain that families are going through, waiting to find out how and why their children died.
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
Yes, we are aware of those calls and those measures that have been put forward. We are working closely with Ofcom and the Chief Coroner’s office to understand how those would work. We are closely monitoring this and actively considering options to strengthen the process.
Will the Minister please draw to the attention of her right honourable friend the Secretary of State the following facts about TikTok? In June 2025, TikTok announced that it would expand its investment and presence in the UK, proudly declaring:
“What underpins our continued growth is our deep commitment to safety”.
Two months later, in August, TikTok announced that it was going to fire almost all its content moderation team in the United Kingdom. One of those moderators said that, as part of their daily job, they were told to scrutinise 1,200 videos every working day. Does that give us confidence that TikTok is a company that can be trusted?
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
All services operating in the United Kingdom must comply with the Online Safety Act. Ofcom is the regulator of online services and, when services fail to comply with the duties under the Act, it has enforcement powers to take action against them. We have made it very clear that Parliament has given those powers to Ofcom and the Government are backing Ofcom to use the measures in its remit to scrutinise the operation of services operating in the UK to provide the right environment for children and all users of social media here.
Baroness Shah (Lab)
My Lords, as the mother of a tech-savvy 16 year-old, access to social media is a topic of discussion in our household and among her friends. They do not believe an outright ban will work. Parents who have suffered incredible loss have also voiced differing views on how we keep children safe online, which is why I believe a consultation is the best way to proceed. Can the Minister tell us how the Government will make sure that all views are considered in the consultation?
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
My noble friend is right to highlight the fact that we all share the objective of a safe online space, but one where children and others can benefit from the digital world and the digital economy. Navigating that and getting the right measures in place was the subject of some debate in this House last week, which showed exactly how defining these parameters and the way in which we proceed will take a short amount of time. On her question about how to ensure that we hear the voices of all, that is exactly what we intend to do during the course of this consultation, particularly the voice of young people.
My Lords, bereaved parents in this case say that they repeatedly warned platforms about dangerous content but were ignored until their children so tragically died. What assurance can the Minister give that victims’ families are now being listened to directly by regulators, rather than having to resort to the courts to be heard?
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
The noble Baroness makes a point about the effectiveness of the regime as it stands and future developments. As I mentioned, we are looking carefully at how the regime is working currently, at the timeliness of the preservation of data, and at the communication of those steps. As she also knows, further measures will come into force over the coming year or so. Ofcom and others are consulting on measures that will take those further requirements forward for categorised services.
My Lords, the Government are being asked to introduce a legal compulsion to force big tech companies to preserve the relevant data. Why do we not just do it?
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
We have put in place powers under the Data (Use and Access) Act, which established the data preservation process, to require Ofcom, when notified by a coroner, to issue a data preservation notice to the specified online service companies. Since coming into force on 30 September, Ofcom has issued at least 12 data preservation notices. As I mentioned, we are looking carefully at how this is working, at the speed at which this is taken forward and at what more needs to be done.
My Lords, further to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Russell, is the Minister confident that TikTok can be trusted when looking at the interests of children and young persons? Yes or no, please.
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
We have set a regime. This House passed the Online Safety Act. It is a regime supervised by Ofcom. We have given Ofcom the resources it needs to supervise against the Online Safety Act. We have made it clear that we back the use of those powers and, as we have seen recently, the Government are prepared to make it clear that they stand behind Ofcom in taking action where that is seen to be fitting.
My Lords, the Minister will be aware that Australia has already instituted a ban. I welcome the consultation that was announced last week. Will we look at Australia’s experience and try to interpret the experience of other jurisdictions in carrying out the consultation?
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
My noble friend is right that there are other practices in other jurisdictions. We should absolutely learn from their experience of taking measures to protect children online and how they are enacted, and look at the effect on both the social media space and on children.
(1 month, 1 week ago)
Lords ChamberTo ask His Majesty’s Government what plans they have to regulate the development of superintelligent AI.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business and Trade and Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Baroness Lloyd of Effra) (Lab)
AI’s superintelligence is the subject of ongoing debate regarding its definition and whether it is achievable. Advanced transformative AI presents both significant opportunities, such as improvements in healthcare and climate action, and risks. As frontier AI evolves, the AI Security Institute helps the Government assess and identify potential emerging risks, which would include pathways towards any kind of superintelligence. The Government will remain vigilant and prepare for new AI risks, including rapid advancements that could affect society and national security. AI regulated by existing expert regulators will be informed by the AISI findings.
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that considered Answer. Clearly, AI has great potential; the UK is third in the global league of AI investment. I understand the Government’s response, which is essentially a nuanced approach to encourage both proper regulation and investment.
However, superintelligent AI undoubtedly does present risks. The Minister will know that the director-general of MI5 has warned of the
“potential future risks from non-human, autonomous AI systems which may evade human oversight and control”.
Meanwhile, the UK’s AI Security Institute has warned:
“In a worst-case scenario, this … could lead to catastrophic, irreversible loss of control over advanced Al systems”.
The problem is that the companies developing superintelligence do not know the outcome and there are currently no barriers to the development. I urge the Government to take this really seriously and to start talking to other countries about putting some safety controls in.
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
My noble friend is right to mention the research of the AI Security Institute, which is advice the Government listen to and take very seriously. AI is a general-purpose technology with a wide range of applications, which is why the UK believes that the vast majority of AI should be regulated at the point of use. My noble friend is also right that collaboration with other countries is critical, and the UK’s approach is to engage with many other countries, and through the AI Security Institute with developers so that it has good insight into what is happening in development today.
My Lords, I declare an interest as a consultant to DLA Piper on AI regulation and policy. In their manifesto, the Government promised
“binding regulation on … companies developing the most powerful AI models”,
yet, 18 months later, even in light of the harmful activities of stand-alone AI bots, we have seen neither the promised consultation nor any draft legislation. How can the Government credibly claim to be taking superintelligence seriously when they cannot get round even to publishing a consultation, let alone legislating?
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
As I mentioned earlier, most AI systems are regulated by our existing expert regulators, and they are already acting. The ICO has released guidance on AI and data protection and the MHRA is taking action to allow a sandbox for AI as a medical device product. We are working with regulators to boost their capabilities as part of the AI opportunities action plan, and where we need to take action—for example, as we have under the Online Safety Act—we will do so. We do not speculate on legislation ahead of future parliamentary Sessions, but we will keep noble Lords updated should and when we bring forward a consultation ahead of any potential legislation.
My Lords, in 1982, the then Government commissioned a philosopher, Dame Mary Warnock, to explore the moral and ethical frameworks around human embryology and fertilisation, long before many of the developments were really possible. I worry that the AI Security Institute is just trying to work out what it does, rather than what it should do. Will the Government consider a similar commission to establish the ethical frameworks for superintelligence?
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
The AI Security Institute looks at the science and the implications of AI, and collaborates with many other research institutes to examine some of the implications for our society and economy. That approach is bearing great fruit. The institute publishes findings so that we can all take account of them.
Can the Minister elaborate on what economic and labour market risks are associated with superintelligent AI, as distinct from generative AI?
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
As I mentioned at the start, there is a lot of debate about the pathway that AI development will take and the pace at which it is developing. The AI Security Institute has reported a sharp rise in AI capabilities over the past 18 months, with continued growth almost certain, and it is looking at the implications of this. For example, one of its research focuses is tracking the development of AI capabilities that would test the limits of human control, which is one of the most pertinent questions for anybody thinking about the implications of superintelligence.
My Lords, I want to build on the very important point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. Given that AI research and development can be conducted, in effect, anywhere, regulation of the development of superintelligent AI is going to have to be global. Does the Minister feel that the UK is genuinely taking full advantage of our considerable convening power in this space to drive forward the global AI safety agenda? Further, might there be grounds for concern that our convening power may be diminished over time by the emerging political uncertainty that came to the fore over the weekend?
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
The Government have forged many extremely successful relationships; as evidenced, for example, by the number of trade deals secured over the past 18 months or so. These relationships with the EU, the US, India, France and many other countries include discussions on AI. In addition, the UK is the co-ordinator on related questions for the International Network for Advanced AI Measurement, Evaluation and Science, which aims to shape and advance the science of AI evaluations globally. Our engagement is on all levels, and specifically on the technical level. The noble Viscount makes an extremely important point. This is an effort of global development, so it is important that we engage with developers globally and with other countries.
My Lords, I am and always have been a faithful. With tighter regulation in the future confidently anticipated, is it not often the case that its absence in the present can impede innovation rather than foster it? Given that many of those responsible for the development of AI—and, in some cases, the development of AI superintelligence—have repeatedly requested tighter controls on their activities, can my noble friend the Minister assure your Lordships’ House that the existing regulatory structures are adequate? Can she describe the mechanisms through which their salience and strength are kept under constant review?
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
My noble friend makes a very good point: our regulators need to be equipped and to have the capabilities, capacity and expertise to regulate a fast-advancing technology. We have put in place many actions and convening powers as part of the AI action plan, to make sure that our regulators have that capacity and capability. Through the AI Security Institute, we are making sure that they have the information they need to regulate. Many departments are thinking about this in concert with their regulators, to ensure that we are taking advantage of the opportunities and preparing for the risks that AI will undoubtedly bring.
(1 month, 2 weeks ago)
Lords ChamberMy Lords, we on the Liberal Democrat Benches welcome the Secretary of State’s Statement, as well as her commitment to bring the new offence of creating or requesting non-consensual intimate images into force and to make it a priority offence. However, why has it taken this specific crisis with Grok and X to spur such urgency? The Government have had the power for months to commence this offence, so why have they waited until women and children were victimised on an industrial scale?
My Commons colleagues have called for the National Crime Agency to launch an urgent criminal investigation into X for facilitating the creation and distribution of this vile and abusive deepfake imagery. The Secretary of State is right to call X’s decision to put the creation of these images behind a paywall insulting; indeed, it is the monetisation of abuse. We welcome Ofcom’s formal investigation into sexualised imagery generated by Grok and shared on X. However, will the Minister confirm that individuals creating and sharing this content will also face criminal investigation by the police? Does the Minister not find it strange that the Prime Minister needs to be reassured that X, which is used by many parliamentarians and government departments, will comply with UK law?
While we welcome the move to criminalise nudification apps in the Crime and Policing Bill, we are still waiting for the substantive AI Bill promised in the manifesto. The Grok incident proves that voluntary agreements are not enough. I had to take a slightly deep breath when I listened to what the noble Viscount, Lord Camrose, had to say. Who knew that the Conservative Party was in favour of AI regulation? Will the Government commit to a comprehensive, risk-based regulatory framework, with mandatory safety testing, for high-risk models before they are released to the public, of the kind that we have been calling for on these Benches for some time? We need risk-proportionate, mandatory standards, not voluntary commitments that can be abandoned overnight.
Will the Government mandate the adoption of hashtagging technology that would make the removal of non-consensual images possible, as proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Owen of Alderley Edge, in Committee on the Crime and Policing Bill—I am pleased to see that the noble Lord, Lord Hanson, is in his place—and as advocated by StopNCII.org?
The Secretary of State mentioned her commitment to the safety of children, yet she has previously resisted our calls to raise the digital age of consent to 16, in line with European standards. If the Government truly want to stop companies profiteering from children’s attention and data, why will they not adopt this evidence-based intervention?
To be absolutely clear, the creation and distribution of non-consensual intimate images has nothing whatever to do with free speech. These are serious criminal offences. There is no free speech right to sexually abuse women and children, whether offline or online. Any attempt to frame this as an issue of freedom of expression is a cynical distortion designed to shield platforms from their legal responsibilities.
Does the Minister have full confidence that Ofcom has the resources and resolve to take on these global tech giants, especially now that it is beginning to ramp up the use of its investigation and enforcement powers? Will the Government ensure that Ofcom uses the full range of enforcement powers available to it? If X continues to refuse compliance, will Ofcom deploy the business disruption measures under Part 7, Chapter 6 of the Online Safety Act? Will it seek service restriction orders under Sections 144 and 145 to require payment service providers and advertisers to withdraw their services from the non-compliant platform? The public expect swift and decisive action, not a drawn-out investigation while the abuse continues. Ofcom must use every tool Parliament has given it.
Finally, if the Government believe that X is a platform facilitating illegal content at scale, why do they continue to prioritise it for official communications? Is it not time for the Government to lead by example and reduce their dependence on a platform that seems ideologically opposed to the values of decency and even perhaps the UK rule of law, especially now that we know that the Government have withdrawn their claim that 10.8 million families use X as their main news source?
AI technologies are developing at an exponential rate. Clarity on regulation is needed urgently by developers, adopters and, most importantly, the women and children who deserve protection. The tech sector can be a force for enormous good, but only when it operates within comprehensive, risk-proportionate regulatory frameworks that put safety first. We on these Benches will support robust action to ensure that that happens.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business and Trade and Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Baroness Lloyd of Effra) (Lab)
I thank both noble Lords for their contributions to the debate. We all agree that the circulation of these vile, non-consensual deepfakes has been shocking. Sexually manipulating images of women and children is despicable and abhorrent. The law is clear: sharing or threatening to share a deepfake intimate image without consent, including images of people in their underwear, is a criminal offence. To the noble Lord’s point, individuals who share non-consensual sexual deepfakes should expect to face the full extent of the law. In addition, under the Online Safety Act, services have duties to prevent and swiftly remove the content. If someone has had non-consensual intimate images of themselves created or shared, they should report it to the police, as these are serious criminal offences.
I turn to some of the points that have been raised so far. The Government have been very clear on their approach in terms of both the AI action plan and the legislation that we have brought forward. We have introduced a range of new AI-related measures in this Session to tackle illegal activity; we have introduced a new criminal offence to make it illegal to create or alter an AI model to create CSAM; we are banning nudification apps; and we are introducing a new legal defence to make it possible for selected experts to safely and securely test models for CSAM and non-consensual intimate images and extreme pornography vulnerabilities.
AI is a general-purpose technology with a wide range of applications, which is why we think that the vast majority of AI systems should be regulated at the point of use. In response to the AI action plan, the Government are committed to working with regulators to boost their capabilities. We will legislate where needed and where we see evidence of the gaps. Our track record so far has shown that that is what we do, but we will not speculate, as ever, on legislation ahead of future parliamentary Sessions.
I come to the question of Ofcom enforcement action. On Ofcom’s investigation process, the Secretary of State was clear that she expects an update from Ofcom on next steps as soon as possible and expects Ofcom to use the full legal powers that Parliament has given it to investigate and take the action that is needed. If companies are found to have broken the law, Parliament has given Ofcom significant enforcement measures. These include the power to issue fines of up to 10% of a company’s qualifying worldwide revenue and, in the most serious cases, Ofcom can apply for a court order to impose serious business disruption measures. These are all tools at Ofcom’s disposal as it takes forward its investigations. On the question of whether Ofcom has the resources to investigate online safety, as I think I have mentioned in the House before, Ofcom has been given additional resources year on year to undertake its duties in respect of enforcing the Online Safety Act: that is, I think, £92 million, which is an uplift on previous years.
I come to the question of the Government’s participation in news channels and on X. We will keep our participation under review. We do not believe that withdrawing would solve the problems that we have seen. People get their news from sources such as X and it is important that they hear from a Government committed to protecting women and girls. It is important that they hear what we are doing and hear when we call out vile actions such as these. We think it is extremely important to continue to take action and continue to back Ofcom in the actions that it is taking in respect of this investigation, and in fact all of its investigations under the Online Safety Act.
The noble Lord asked whether it should be mandatory for AI developers to test whether their models can produce illegal material. Enabling AI developers to test for vulnerabilities in their models is essential for improving safeguards and ensuring that they are robust and future-proofed. At present, such testing is voluntary, but we have been clear that no option is off the table when it comes to protecting UK users, and we will act where evidence suggests that further action can be effective or necessary. We are keeping many of the areas that have been raised today under review and we are seeking further evidence. We are looking at what is happening in other jurisdictions and at what is happening here and we will continue to take action.
I also reflect on the point that the noble Lord made that the issues around enforcing illegal activity are nothing to do with free speech. These are entirely separate issues and it is incredibly important to note that this is not about restricting free speech, but about upholding the law and ensuring that the standards that we expect offline are held online. Many tech companies are acting responsibly and making strong endeavours to comply with the Online Safety Act, and we welcome their engagement on that. We need to make sure that our legislation and our enforcement is kept up to date with the great strides in technology that are happening. This means that, in some cases, we will be looking at the real-life impact and taking measures where new issues arise. That is the track record that we have shown and that is what we will continue to do.
My Lords, from any reasonable reading of the Online Safety Act, X either failed completely to carry out a risk assessment in relation to the potential of its Grok AI tool to create harmful content or, if it did so, it did it in such a totally incompetent way that it might as well not have bothered.
I think that this Government are doing exactly the right thing and that we have given Ofcom the powers. I would like to know as soon as possible about Ofcom— well, that would be good but, in parliamentary terms, it can be rather a stretch. But we do need to have a deadline for when we are going to hear from Ofcom on how quickly it is going to do this.
Nobody has referred yet to the victims of this activity. What help and support can we give to those who are being attacked in this way? What advice is being given to them and by whom, so that they can be effectively supported when these devastating images are created?
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
My noble friend is right to raise the extremely important point about victim support and the impact that this has on people. We have seen testimonies and reports of how devastating, degrading and humiliating this experience can be. The Revenge Porn Helpline is doing fantastic work in providing specialist support and help with getting images removed from the internet, and I commend it for that activity.
On the question on the investigation process, the Secretary of State has been clear that she expects an update from Ofcom on next steps as soon as possible and that she expects Ofcom to use its full legal powers. We hope that that will be clear as soon as possible.
My Lords, I declare an interest as I am receiving pro bono legal advice on NCII from Mishcon de Reya. I am delighted that the Government are finally enforcing the law that noble Lords in this House pushed so strongly for in the passage of the data Bill, criminalising the non-consensual creation and requesting of intimate images. However, I cannot help but feel frustrated that, along with survivors, I have been asking the Government to enforce this law since it achieved Royal Assent last June. I hope it is now clear to the Government that we cannot afford any similar delays. With this in mind, will the Minister commit to looking again at my amendments to the Crime and Policing Bill that just last month the Government would not accept, which would implement a 48-hour time limit for the takedown of NCII material and a hash registry? Will she also join me in thanking the survivors and campaigners, who have fought for so long for this law, for their bravery and perseverance?
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
I thank the noble Baroness for her remarks, and for her expertise and input over the course of many years in this area. On the take-down time, we are looking at the experience in other jurisdictions, as I mentioned. We are also looking at the experience of the timelines that are implemented in this country; that is something that Ofcom will look at. We will look at both the scope and the speed of both those jurisdictions. As I think noble Lords have seen, we will look at measures, and if we believe that they are effective and speak to the harms that we are seeing, we will take action.
My Lords, I was in the other place when the Secretary of State made her Statement. I commend her for the strength of her words, but we are beyond words now. We are living in a country where any woman or child can be stripped to a bikini and turned into abuse material, as the price and entry point of being online. I do not accept the Government’s defence. There are many ways to communicate with the electorate, and to choose a company that monetises the humiliation and degradation of women and girls as part of its business proposition is to demonstrate that this is business as usual. It is not action for change.
I also disagree very strongly with the Minister: it has not been shocking. We have had the amendments that the noble Baroness referred to—most of those came from Members of this House, including the AI CSAM amendment that she referred to. In the last few weeks, the Government have pushed back on the amendments to the Crime and Policing Bill and, before that, to the data Bill. We have amendments on these issues. We foresaw it and, to be honest, we foresaw it in the Online Safety Act, so even on the other side this is not a shock.
I ask the Minister now to commit to placing the violence against women and girls guidance on a statutory footing, accepting amendments on chatbots and LLM risk assessments, and making a move with Ofcom to say that companies are not required only to do a risk assessment; they must, on a mandatory basis, mitigate those very risks that they find. We must not legitimise a platform which sows division, degrades women and sexually humiliates children.
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
I thank the noble Baroness for her points and for her expertise that she brings to the House. I should have mentioned that I commend all those who have been speaking up from a position of experience. It is a very difficult thing to do, and it brings a unique perspective into the debate.
I spoke before about the Government withdrawing from using these platforms; we do not think that would be effective. We understand why people feel strongly about it. It is something that we keep under review.
The noble Baroness raised a number of other important issues. We are monitoring how Ofcom’s code on violence against women is being implemented. We think it is very important. I will discuss the many other areas she raised with my colleague who is taking that Bill through and, indeed, with the noble Baroness outside the House if that would be of interest.
Lord Pack (LD)
My Lords, last week the Government stated in this House that 10.8 million families use X as their main news source, which obviously would be many more people in total, but Ofcom’s data shows that only 3% cite X as their primary news source, which is under 2 million people—such a small number, in fact, that it is smaller than the number of people who believe that the moon landings were faked. Is it not time for the Government to rethink their approach to X, and, in particular, to rethink the Home Office’s published social media policy, which positively prioritises and encourages people to use X? Is it not time to start discouraging rather than continuing to encourage it?
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
I have responded to this question before. I understand why people feel strongly about it. As I mentioned, the Government keep participation under review, but it is important that we can communicate with people wherever they get their news from. We have things to say about our violence against women and girls strategy, about what is acceptable in terms of social media, and on many other topics. It is important that we reach all people.
The US Under-Secretary of State for Public Diplomacy, Sarah B Rogers, an appointee of President Trump, said in an interview that was broadcast on GB News in the early hours of this morning that if the UK Government were to ban X, nothing was off the table, in what were clearly threatening remarks. She said that the political valence of the British Government is antagonistic to that of X. Given what we are talking about, one would really hope so. Will the Minister confirm that the British Government will act in the interests of the well-being of the British public and the country, stand up to such threats to democracy and not allow themselves to be bullied by the Trump Administration?
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
The Government’s motivation is to take action to protect users in the United Kingdom and to support Ofcom in implementing UK law. That is what we have made very clear. We have made it very clear that Ofcom has our full backing in implementing compliance with the Online Safety Act and that we have given Ofcom tools that it can use, and the Secretary of State and others have made it clear that it has our support in using those tools. I hope that clarifies our motivations in these areas.
Lord Wigley (PC)
My Lords, the Minister will have gathered that all parts of this House feel very strongly indeed on this matter. It is quite outrageous that people’s bodies should be used in that way. I pick up one point that was mentioned on the Front Bench: surely, in extremis, there should be custodial sentences available.
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
These are serious offences and the noble Lord is right that there is consensus on this. The decisions on prosecution and sentencing are for the police and courts. They should know that, as we have said, they have our support in taking that action.
My Lords, I welcome the Government’s announcement that they are bringing legislation into force this week to tackle this issue, and I welcome the news that Ofcom has launched a formal investigation to determine whether X has complied with its duties under the Online Safety Act. Ofcom should act urgently on this. I also support the Government’s intention to act on gaps identified in our online safety legislation, such as the fact that not all chatbots are covered.
I commend my noble friend Lady Owen of Alderley Edge for her work on banning deepfakes through amendments to the Data (Use and Access) Bill, and her excellent continuing work on this issue. There is an issue about the lack of transparency in how chatbots such as Grok are trained. As I understand it, if an image or multimodal model can generate non-consensual sexual imagery or deepfake pornography, it is certain that the model was trained on large, uncurated web scrapes where such material is common. Does my noble friend the Minister agree that this gives new impetus to the Government tackling the issue of transparency in the training of AI models, which is a matter we are looking at on the Communications and Digital Select Committee in terms of the transparency needed to deal with issues of AI copyright? This is a new and very pressing part of that issue.
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
My noble friend raises good questions about training and testing. As she will also know, we are bringing forward measures in the Crime and Policing Bill that will allow testing in certain narrow circumstances, so that developers can make sure that the models they bring forward are not able to disseminate these kinds of awful images or CSAM. These are very important things and we are working very carefully with others to find the right regime for these models.
My Lords, I welcome moves by the Government on this issue. I came off X last September and there is wider debate to be had about that site. Given that we know that the use of AI tools to harm women will only accelerate—recent research has found thousands of nudification apps available—I repeat my question from earlier this week: what more will the Government do to create a robust framework so that AI will be used responsibly in the whole landscape of misogyny and abuse?
In relation to Ofcom, I heard what the Minister said about increased funding year on year, but why therefore does it seem that Ofcom does not have teeth?
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
I thank the right reverend Prelate for her comments. In terms of Ofcom’s enforcement powers, it has imposed four financial penalties under the Online Safety Act, including of over £1 million. From the Government’s point of view, we are clear that it should be confident that it has our backing to use the powers that Parliament gave it, and we are resourcing it with the additional funding that we have provided. We believe that that is sufficient and we will see from its updates on its online safety activities exactly what it is doing, and that is part of its accountability to Parliament and the Government.
In terms of other things that we are taking forward, noble Lords will know that we are legislating in the Crime and Policing Bill to criminalise nudification tools. That offence will target tools that are specifically designed to generate non-consensual intimate images and make it illegal for companies to supply those tools.
Baroness Shawcross-Wolfson (Con)
I was very glad to hear the Minister say that she believes in upholding offline standards online, and I hope the Government will consider the amendments from the noble Baroness, Lady Bertin, to the Crime and Policing Bill, and try to regulate online pornography as they do offline pornography. Can the Minister clarify whether the Government’s very welcome ban on nudification apps is going to apply to all apps with this capability, or only to single-purpose apps? There have been some worrying reports today that only single-purpose apps will be covered, and it is very easy to see how developers could add secondary functions to circumvent the law.
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
The proposed offence will target tools which are specifically designed to generate non-consensual intimate images. General purpose AI tools which are not designed solely or principally to generate non-consensual images will not be included; this is for those that are designed specifically for that purpose.
My Lords, I hope the whole House welcomes the Secretary of State’s Statement. Can my noble friend say whether it is thought that the social media platform X understands the revulsion caused by its AI Grok tool? I ask this question of my noble friend because the reported comments of the founder of X certainly suggest that he does not, and some aspects of the initial reaction by the company, such as saying it is acceptable as long as it is paid for, suggest that that it simply has no idea about the strength of the public reaction to this.
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
I cannot speak for others but, from our perspective, it is clear under the Online Safety Act what illegal content is, and what the child safety duties are. Operating in the United Kingdom means abiding by those; it means doing the risk assessments, taking swift action against priority offences, and abiding by all of the regime in place here in the UK.
The Earl of Effingham (Con)
My Lords, this is all happening on social media, so does the Minister agree with the largest union representing teachers in the UK on banning social media for under-16s?
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
There are strong views about access to social media for under-16s, and we understand that it is an area of concern for many, especially parents. We are keeping evidence on the impact of social media on children under review. While a ban is not our current policy, we are closely monitoring what is happening in Australia and looking carefully at the evidence. We have already taken some of the boldest steps to protect children with the Online Safety Act, and we are listening to views, for example, from the NSPCC and others. These include concerns about setting age limits which might mean that people are unprepared for the digital world, which is also a responsibility in terms of media literacy and ensuring that people can operate safely and securely in this new digital world.
(2 months, 2 weeks ago)
Lords Chamber
Baroness Lloyd of Effra
That this House do not insist on its Amendments 120N and 120P to 120S, to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reason 120T.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business and Trade and Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Baroness Lloyd of Effra) (Lab)
My Lords, in moving this Motion, I will also speak to Motion A1. Throughout the passage of this Bill, which arrived in your Lordships’ House nine months ago yesterday, we have scrutinised, deliberated and debated all areas. Once again, I thank noble Lords for fulfilling their scrutiny role and, in the course of doing so, providing their invaluable insight.
However, we are now in round 4 of ping-pong on a Bill that the Government have a clear electoral mandate to deliver. We cannot be accused of attempting to push the Bill through without listening to the concerns raised by noble Lords. We are immensely grateful for the more than 60 occasions on which noble Lords have engaged with us, offering rigorous scrutiny and thoughtful challenge. It is because of this valuable feedback that the Government have been able to act and make changes where appropriate, including through technical amendments in Committee and on Report and the publication of an implementation road map outlining what the Government will consult on, when, and at what point new rights are expected to go live.
The Government are pleased to have found commonality in the three previous rounds of ping-pong on 11 of the 12 issues the House asked the Government to look at again. The contributions of noble Lords from across the House have helped bring forward solutions on a range of specific issues, from heritage railways to paid time off for special constables. On a number of other issues, such as the right to be accompanied, the Government have made non-legislative commitments which noble Lords have recognised as important progress. Most recently, during ping-pong, the Government brought forward amendments to the Bill on zero-hours contracts, seasonal work, trade union ballot thresholds and trade union political funds, which will help to ensure that stakeholders’ views and insights are represented in the final policy outcomes as we shift into the implementation phase for this Bill.
On the final issue of unfair dismissal, in the face of successive Lords votes against day-one rights to protection from unfair dismissal, itself a manifesto commitment, the Government took the extraordinary step of convening a series of constructive conversations between business representative organisations and trade unions, which reached a workable agreement on the unfair dismissal provisions. Yesterday, those representatives—from the British Chambers of Commerce, the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development, the Recruitment and Employment Confederation, Small Business Britain, the Federation of Small Businesses, and the Confederation of British Industry—wrote to the Secretary of State for Business and Trade, stating that the outcome of the dialogue
“represented a significant step forward which will have a positive impact on growth and opportunities”.
Lord Fox (LD)
My Lords, this time last week I said that much had happened in the preceding interval. Today, the opposite is true. We are now down to one issue, but the arguments on that issue remain as they were last week. For that reason, unlike last week, this speech will be short.
There remain concerns about the removal of the cap on compensation, as we have heard. As he did last week, the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, has taken those concerns and amplified them, to the seeming exclusion of the wider strategic position of what we are discussing. I understand the motives, and those motives became ever clearer just now. If the noble Lord would like to have a face-off on the water industry, I would be very happy to discuss with him the hundreds of thousands of tonnes of sewage that went into the rivers under the Conservative Government and the compensation terms that he very helpfully enumerated, which happened on his watch. However, this is not the arena for that argument, and I will pass without comment. My critique of the noble Lord’s amendment to the Motion is unchanged. We believe there are better ways of dealing with the cap than derailing the package that got the key concession with which we are all very pleased.
As set out last week, reiterated in the Minister’s letter and by the Minister just now, the Government will publish an enactment impact assessment for the Bill. They will do so prior to commencement regulations which would put in place the dismissal package. That was what we on these Benches were asking for and we were pleased to receive that assurance. Further, the impact assessment will be publicly available, and I was pleased to hear the Minister say that we will be engaging the community of business in the process of developing that impact assessment.
Many UK business associations and organisations share the feeling that there is nothing to be gained from the opposition amendment today. They are asking the opposite. As the Minister set out, six of the major organisations have sent a letter. It is a longish letter, as the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, demonstrated by selectively picking elements out of it. But as the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, pointed out, the conclusion is clear and actually unambiguous, in saying,
“we believe that the best way forward is to keep working with the government and trade unions to find balanced solutions through secondary legislation. To avoid losing the 6 months qualifying period, we therefore believe that now is the time for Parliament to pass the Bill”.
I said that last week, and it is truer this week.
I also pointed out last week that, as the business organisations said, the key to enacting the Bill will be through secondary legislation. If His Majesty’s loyal Opposition care about how the Bill is brought into life, it is on those statutory instruments that they should focus their attention. Their critical actions must extend to include the possibility of fatal Motions to vote down secondary legislation and keep the Government focused on the needs of British business. That is the real arena that we should be working in.
If the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, is put to a vote and he seeks to extend ping-pong to yet another round, that will clearly be against the advice of the business groups which have been cited. I urge your Lordships to heed the advice of those organisations, and the advice of the noble Lords that we have heard opposite, and pass the Bill now.
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
My Lords, I again thank your Lordships’ House for its attentive scrutiny throughout the passage of the Bill. There can be no doubt, as the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, mentioned, that this House has discharged its duties as a revising Chamber. Your Lordships’ House asked the Government to look again, and we have worked collaboratively with noble Lords to reach this agreement. I thank the noble Lords, Lord Fox, Lord Pannick and Lord Vaux, for their speeches in favour of the compromise proposed by the Government.
I turn to a number of the issues raised, in particular by the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe. I remind noble Lords that negotiations are successful only where there is compromise, as was so eloquently put in the previous debate by my noble friend Lord Barber of Ainsdale, the former chair of ACAS. The Government and worker representatives moved considerably during negotiations to agree to retaining a six-month qualifying period. Without similar compromise from business representatives on the removal, this deal would have been one-sided and undeliverable.
On the question of the impact of the cap, I do not think I can do better than the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, who said last week that
“the concerns that have been expressed about the impact of the removal of the cap are perhaps … exaggerated”.—[Official Report, 10/12/25; col. 276.]
Just now, he mentioned that he does not believe it will lead to the chaos that the noble Lord outlined earlier. It is not our view, but, in any case, as I mentioned, we will publish the enactment impact assessment as soon as the Bill achieves Royal Assent. It will be public and transparent, and will include an assessment of the impact of removing the compensation cap.
I remind noble Lords of our commitment to convene meetings with shareholders so that those from the City, law practitioners and others can feed into that. Those findings will be taken into account by the dispute resolution task force that we are setting up—it will have all that information to hand. We are obviously very keen to improve the functioning of the dispute resolution system. We inherited something that was not in a good state. We are providing ACAS with over £65 million in resource funding, which is a significant increase. We are working actively to make this a system that works extremely well.
I hope that this afternoon will mark the end of the Bill’s journey through Parliament. I reiterate the Government’s commitment, mentioned by other noble Lords who spoke today, to continue talking to and genuinely engaging with interested parties in the way we have recently about the full range of issues discussed today. The Bill will deliver a generational shift in employment rights. It will do so by working with businesses and trade unions in a collaborative manner. These changes to the qualifying period and the compensation cap are proportional and practical. For those who are concerned about business impact, the joint letter should provide noble Lords with reassurances that businesses support this workable agreement. As they have stated,
“now is the time for Parliament to pass the Bill”.
I hope noble Lords will recognise the progress made over the past nine months, oppose the amendment tabled by the Opposition Front Bench, and, in doing so, support the package to deliver certainty for businesses and fair rights for workers. It is indeed time for Parliament to pass the Bill. I commend it to the House.
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
I thank the noble and right reverend Lord for his question. As I mentioned last week, the context here is Bill specific and the changes that have been proposed and have been put in terms of this tripartite agreement were in response to issues that had been raised in your Lordships’ House. We went away and convened a particular mode of operating, and we have brought it back as a Bill-specific package. As I also mentioned last week, there are many discussions in the House about how we want to take business forward. The Leader of the House has set that out very clearly. That is the way we intend to proceed more generally.
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in this very brief debate. The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, is of course right—I did not quote that bit of the letter because the Minister did. The House generally does not like needless repetition, so I am following the rules.
I am very grateful to the Minister for those assurances, and I am somewhat reassured. I am grateful—correct me if I have any of this wrong—that the impact assessment will be published before commencement and will be public and transparent and include a dispute resolution mechanism, that the tripartite agreement will endure going forward in further discussions around the Bill, and that all stakeholders will be consulted widely. That is, in effect, what we were asking for. The simple fact of the matter, though, is that we on these Benches will continue to hold the Government to account on behalf of the wealth creators, the businesses, the employers and their workers in this country.
I have heard what has been said and will emphasise a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, which I should have made in my speech: we are particularly concerned about the impact of the entire Bill on small businesses. We will return to that theme unless their interests are very carefully protected going forward.
As to the comments by the noble Lord, Lord Fox, regarding the strategic position, I am not entirely sure what the strategic position is. But I am grateful for his comments.
I am also enormously grateful to all those on His Majesty’s Loyal Opposition’s Benches and the many on the Cross Benches who stuck to their principles. We have achieved a great deal and made a bad Bill marginally more palatable. I beg leave to withdraw Motion A1.
(2 months, 2 weeks ago)
Lords ChamberTo ask His Majesty’s Government what progress they have made in implementing the recommendations of the Technology Adoption Review.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business and Trade and Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Baroness Lloyd of Effra) (Lab)
The review’s recommendations were incorporated into the industrial strategy and since its launch we have begun to deliver on our commitments. For example, we have allocated £99 million of funding to allow for the expansion of the Made Smarter programme to support increased adoption of technologies such as AI in advanced manufacturing. We are taking forward work to implement the recommendations of the SME Digital Adoption Task Force, which published its recommendations in July.
My Lords, among its many findings, the review identified that there is a proliferation of different business support schemes designed to improve technology adoption and productivity. Many of these are short lived, their impact is variable and they are hard for SMEs to navigate. What consideration is being given to streamlining business support based on the evidence of which interventions have proved most successful in the past?
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
I thank my noble friend for her commitment and sponsorship of this important area. Long-term certainty is critical in driving private sector investment. That is why we are expanding successful programmes such as Made Smarter Adoption, and making changes to government procurement and regulation. To make it easier for businesses to find the support they need, in July we launched the new Business Growth Service, including developing a single online access point for government-backed advice and support services. It has already seen over 127,000 domestic users.
My Lords, it is really encouraging to hear in the report about AI adoption hubs set regionally around the country. I would like to ask the Minister about AI literacy, which is also referred to in the review. Is she happy that we are doing enough to bring about that literacy? That seems to be one of the big problems with the development of AI in this country.
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
The noble Lord is absolutely right that we need to take action on a number of fronts, including AI literacy and digital skills more generally. The Government are taking action on digital skills in a number of areas, including through what was the CyberFirst programme and is now the TechFirst programme, looking at both young people and students.
On AI skills, particularly for those in the workforce, the Prime Minister announced a plan to train 7.5 million workers with essential AI skills by 2030 through our industry partnership with key players. It is great to have those players collaborating with us on that.
My Lords, the Technology Adoption Review is clear that the UK’s ability to turn research excellence into productivity gains depends on skills and access to world-class talent across our innovation system. In light of Sir Paul Nurse’s recent warnings that high visa fees and restrictive rules are actively deterring early career researchers and damaging the UK’s science base, will the Government commit to aligning research visa policy with their technology adoption ambitions, say, by emulating the Canada Global Impact+ Research Talent Initiative?
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
The noble Lord is right that attracting high-calibre talent to this country is incredibly important. We have a number of ongoing initiatives to do that, including the Global Talent Taskforce, as well as through academia, as my noble friend the Minister with responsibility for science and technology talked about. The digital skills jobs plan will also set out how we can support that aim and get the balance right between growing homegrown talent and attracting those we need to from abroad, so that we have the best chances of growing our science base and the spin-outs.
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that AI literacy should be extended to the police force and the judiciary? In very recent cases, it is clear that AI provided incorrect quotes in compiling reports and writing judgments; and in the case of the West Midlands Police, a non-existent football match was cited as a reason why Maccabi fans should not be allowed into Birmingham. Do we not have to do a lot more to teach people how to use AI properly?
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
My noble friend is absolutely right that AI has huge potential, but that getting right its adoption and the use of critical skills, whether in the public or private sector, is an integral part of ensuring that it drives productivity and all the promised expectations.
My Lords, impressive work is already under way to drive technological innovation across local and regional government. Derby City Council was the first in the UK to introduce phone assistants powered by generative AI—they are called Darcie, Ali and Perry; do come and ask me why they have those names if you want to know—to streamline call centre interactions with residents. I declare my interest as Bishop of Derby and a member of the Derby City Partnership board. How will the Minister’s department learn from best practice and pilot initiatives across local and regional government to ensure that AI implementation maintains inclusivity and high ethical standards in all sectors?
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
Learning from best practice is a critical part of our approach, as is taking test and learn pilots out so that we can see what works on the ground, particularly in collaboration with local government, businesses and civil society. It is an approach that we take across many different parts of the public sector, and I will make sure that we look at that example in particular.
My Lords, the report is critical of skills shortages, problems with regulations and the financial constraints on investments. I know that it is not directly the Minister’s responsibility, but could she talk to the Treasury about looking for alternative systems of raising funds, and involving the public and extending public/private partnerships, so that we can get some initiative and money going in, in addition to the money that will be invested that she already mentioned?
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
In many areas—in fact, the entire industrial strategy and particularly the Technology Adoption Review—that has been done in concert with the private sector. It is an incredibly important part of the approach. To take one example, the skills package in construction takes that approach forward; both the private and public sectors are putting themselves forward together to provide more opportunities for young people. That is the approach that we will take across digital and AI skills, as I mentioned.
I draw noble Lords’ attention to my technology interests, as set out in the register. What assessment have the Government made of the critique of the CBI and others that their technology adoption plans are too fragmented? Does the Minister agree that, without strong co-ordination across different technology adoption initiatives, we will be unable either to assess their collective impacts or to learn their individual lessons?
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
The technology review and many others have identified that there is no silver bullet in respect of technology adoption. What is needed in the creative industries is perhaps completely different from what is needed in the energy sector, for example. The review’s approach and its adoption into the industrial strategy is to match the needs of a particular sector with a set of technological or digital approaches. Beneath that are some common themes—for example, on skills, connectivity or infrastructure. We have to look at it in that way: measures cut across the economy and specific measures are suited to subsectors.
My Lords, as a teacher, when anybody in the House says, “We need to teach people stuff”, I keep on saying, “Why do we not teach it in schools and why do we not teach it properly?”
Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)
The question of digital skills and media literacy is probably most relevant to this area. The noble Lord will have seen that the curriculum and assessment review, which came out recently, has taken into account the need to update our approach to embrace both the risks and the opportunities of the digital world and AI.