Government Record on Education, Employment and Welfare

Baroness Lister of Burtersett Excerpts

Thursday 16th July 2026 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome this opportunity to take stock of what I am sure the Minister will demonstrate is a pretty positive record. I will focus on social security—called “welfare” in the Motion—but first I shall mention the education reforms that have contributed to the child poverty strategy by reducing the costs of education: action on school uniforms, free breakfasts and free school meals. On the last, I will quote Davina, a member of the Child Poverty Action Group’s youth panel, on why they matter so much:

“It’s not just about food, it’s about dignity, equality and belonging. Hunger makes you tired, embarrassed and left out. A hot meal gives you the energy to focus and the confidence to feel like you belong in the room”.


The Government can take pride in a number of measures on social security, including the modest real increase in the real value of universal credit, the fair repayment rate that reduces the overall level of UC deductions and, most significantly, the abolition of what the noble Lord, Lord Freud, described as the “vicious” two-child limit. A self-described mother in a hard-working family of five writes that,

“it feels like a heavy weight has been lifted off our shoulders; we can finally breathe”,

after the “devastating financial impact” of the limit.

Of course I was not happy about the cuts, but at least the worst of them was averted by the establishment of the Timms PIP review, which was co-produced with disabled people. This is such a positive initiative, as has been the ongoing engagement of the child poverty strategy with parents and children experiencing poverty. I very much hope the Government will build on such initiatives in their policy-making.

The Timms review’s excellent interim report pulls no punches in its critique, including of the dehumanising treatment of those claiming PIP, which raises wider questions about the need for a culture of dignity and respect in the social security system. The report also questions the false narrative of a ballooning overall working-age benefits budget. One consequence of cuts by the Conservative-led Governments has been a significant reduction in the real value of benefits, according to the child poverty strategy documents.

The strategy makes it clear that social security plays a vital role in reducing child poverty, critical to the goals both of security and opportunity, a point also emphasised by charities in the field and by academic and think-tank analysis. Far from restricting opportunity, as the noble Baroness, Lady Evans, said, the child poverty strategy is increasing opportunity for children with experience of poverty. So, wearing my Olivia Twist hat, I hope that serious thought will be given to further action, in particular on the benefit cap, the frozen local housing allowance and the adequacy of UC in meeting need.

The End Child Poverty coalition speaks for many charities when it says that we

“must shift from viewing social security as a sign of failure towards viewing it as an essential investment in children and families”.

According to research by Turn2us, a more positive political narrative could increase public trust in the social security system. I urge the Government not to listen to the siren voices of those baying for cuts but instead to defend social security robustly as, to quote Minister Johnson,

“the bedrock of our welfare state”.—[Official Report, Commons, 30/6/26; col. 875.]

Child Trust Fund Accounts

Baroness Lister of Burtersett Excerpts

Wednesday 19th March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wilson of Sedgefield (Lab)]

As of 5 April 2024, some 2.5 million child trust funds accounts and 670,000 mature child trust fund accounts had not been claimed. The Government recognise the importance of ensuring that we marry up young people with those accounts. HMRC is working very closely with opinion-formers and stakeholders to try to ensure that this group is reached. This includes, for example, working closely with UCAS, joining with younger influencers who discuss personal finances online, and using traditional media and HMRC’s own social media channels to target young people to ensure that they know the trust funds exist.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, I very much support my noble friend in his efforts, but as there do not seem to be any more questions on that subject, I will broaden it out to another of the Treasury’s responsibilities for children. I realise that my noble friend may not be able to answer this now, but is there any evidence of the impact of the high-income charge, introduced by the previous Government, on the take-up of child benefit? Child benefit is a crucial source of secure income for parents.

[Lord Wilson of Sedgefield (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness for that question, and she is absolutely right: it is not an area I know very much about. I will get the department to write to her with the answer she requires.

Economic Activity of Public Bodies (Overseas Matters) Bill

Baroness Lister of Burtersett Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 7th May 2024 Lords Chamber

Friends, all Governments are made up of frail human beings like you and me, and we can all err. You cannot, it seems to me, put this into a Bill and explain it in such a way. Otherwise, the freedom that some noble Lords here have worked hard to bring to my continent to hold Governments to account will look absolutely self-contradictory—as though we are willing to say one thing to them over there, but we want to muzzle those over here so that they cannot speak because they happen to be a public body. I rejoice that, at the moment, I am still part of the Church of England, and we have open debates. Some of our decisions take a long time to reach, but at least people are allowed to voice their views. If you shut them up, you create a pressure cooker that is totally unnecessary.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, I will make three short points, the first following on from the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Sentamu. I made the point at Second Reading: I find it really disturbing that the Minister said we must speak “with one voice internationally”. For me, that is not democracy; it smacks of totalitarianism. There is a multitude of voices in a democracy, not a single one.

Secondly, the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, finished her speech with reference to a Muslim group that called for the Bill to be thrown out, and she seemed to imply that that meant it was against the State of Israel. There are myriad groups that want the Bill thrown out. Many of us made the same point at Second Reading: we do not think this is a proper Bill, but we are working with it, and what one thinks of it says nothing about one’s attitude to Israel. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Deben, called it “improper” because it is so badly drafted.

Thirdly, and going to the substance of the amendments that we are discussing, my noble friend, in effect, held out an olive branch to the Government by taking the Bill at face value. I agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Warner, said about the statements of compatibility with the European Convention on Human Rights, but let us take that at its face value. If the Government genuinely believe that the Bill is compatible with the ECHR, why should they oppose what the noble Lord, Lord Warner, and my noble friend put forward in their amendments? They would strengthen and give substance to the declarations about human rights.

I hope that when the Minister comes to respond to my noble friend, she will take his amendment in the spirit that he put it to her and be willing to discuss whether it is a way forward. Although many of us dislike the Bill completely, we could at least work on the basis of that amendment.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, it is not my usual role, but I shall be a bit more conciliatory than other speakers. Although I see the Bill as very heavy-handed, almost draconian, and it should never have been brought to your Lordships’ House, at least we have an option now. As the noble Lord, Lord Collins, pointed out, the House can work together. The Minister herself said that she values this House’s expertise. We have not noticed that over the past few years, because virtually everything we suggest gets thrown out. Amendments 19 and 48 would make the Bill less heavy-handed and would mean that public authorities could make decisions of their own when they saw illegitimate human rights abuses. I do not see why anyone would want to reject that idea.

I say to the Government: bring your own amendments if you want to, but, in essence, repeat what we are trying to say here and, perhaps, make this Bill less awful.

Economic Activity of Public Bodies (Overseas Matters) Bill

Baroness Lister of Burtersett Excerpts

Wednesday 17th April 2024 Lords Chamber

Debate on Amendment 15 resumed.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, I support all the amendments in this grouping. I think we still have to hear one of them being set out.

The climate emergency is surely the most important issue facing our planet. We should not be responsible for tying the hands of any body, such as a local authority, that might be able to use its position to oppose actions that contribute to environmental degradation. At Second Reading, the Minister, moving onto climate change, said:

“I would like to clarify that the Bill will ban only considerations that are country-specific. It will therefore not prevent public local authorities divesting from fossil fuels or other campaigns that are not country-specific”.—[Official Report, 20/2/24; col. 593.]


But she did not mention the question of legality, because paragraph 10(3) of the schedule makes clear that environmental misconduct means conduct that

“amounts to an offence, whether under the law of a part of the United Kingdom or any other country or territory”.

Yet many of the actions driving the climate emergency are perfectly lawful. Indeed, as Friends of the Earth points out in its briefing, the fact that destructive environmental activity is allowed to continue legally could even be the rationale for a boycott or disinvestment campaign.

So I invite the Minister to reconsider what she said at Second Reading, or, better still, amend the Bill’s schedule so as to remove the reference to an offence under the law and work with other noble Lords whose amendments are in this group to see how we can take on board the concerns that they have raised in those amendments.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, I rise to support these amendments and simply emphasise that the whole issue of climate change and environmental degradation is now a very major one, which divides generations. My children care about it much more passionately than my generation does. In the United States on the hard right, there is still a very powerful climate change denial lobby pushing against the inclusion of environmental sustainability and development goals in company statements and so on. So I think it would be wise to widen this part of the schedule, not just to deal with environmental misconduct but to accept some of the language in the various amendments that we have seen. Again, this goes back to the Government. They are thinking of the long term and about long-term planning and public opinion. It would be wise to see what can be done to adjust the language to accommodate the very real concerns which have been expressed.

Economic Activity of Public Bodies (Overseas Matters) Bill

Baroness Lister of Burtersett Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 20th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, when I was a child, we always had grapefruit for Sunday breakfast. However, for some months of the year it was tinned grapefruit because my mother, one of the hundreds of thousands referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Hain, refused to buy South African Outspan when that was all that was available. Now, of course, the Bill would not have prevented her personal anti-apartheid boycott, but that was brought to mind by the Quakers’ warning, cited by my noble friend Lord Boateng, that the Bill would restrict their ability to put

“their faith into action by campaigning on matters of conscience, particularly at the local authority level where opportunities for citizens to influence democratic decisions are greater”.

In addition, as Bond points out:

“We now know that the local authorities who took a stand against Apartheid were on the right side of history”.


Had the Bill been in force, it suggests, as have a number of noble Lords,

“it is likely such campaigns would have been illegal”.

What does it say about local democracy that local authorities will no longer have the right or the power to respond positively to such campaigns? The Bill represents a further erosion of local democracy, which is one of many reasons why it prompted so much criticism on the Conservative Benches in the Commons. Indeed, it is tempting just to string together quotations from what they described as “bad legislation” and “a very un-Conservative measure”.

One important point some of them made was that this may have been a manifesto commitment, but that commitment was country-agnostic. As we have heard, the Bill singles out Israel and the Occupied Territories for special treatment. In doing so, it undermines its own stated aims. In particular, many organisations, including some Jewish organisations, warn that, in the words of Kit Malthouse MP, it is

“playing into the anti-Semitism we have seen rise in this country”.—[Official Report, Commons, 25/10/23; col. 904.]

Data published last week, referred to by the Minister, underscored just how serious that rise has been.

The impact assessment admits that official assumptions about the impact of the legislation on community relations are just that—assumptions in the absence of adequate data. My honourable friend Dame Margaret Hodge pleaded with the Minister to withdraw what she called

“an act of complete irresponsibility and unbelievable foolishness”,

particularly in the context of the unspeakable horrors taking place in the Middle East as we speak. It will, she warned,

“only heighten tensions between communities”.—[Official Report, Commons, 25/10/23; cols. 888-89.]

The other stated aim is to stop public bodies pursuing their own foreign policy agenda, as we have heard, so that the UK

“speaks with one voice internationally”.

I think I heard the Minister say at the outset that the nation must speak with one voice. That to me smacks of totalitarianism—it is frightening.

On foreign policy, the chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee, Alicia Kearns MP, warned that by, in effect, conflating Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories, the Bill

“is a departure from our foreign policy”.

The fact that they are listed separately does not, as Ministers have tried to argue, negate the point. Furthermore, as has been said, it risks putting us in breach of UN Security Council Resolution 2334, which the UK itself drafted. Kearns expressed the worry that

“the Bill will leave the international community questioning whether Israeli settlements in the OPTs and the Golan Heights are still regarded as illegal by the UK Government”.—[Official Report, Commons, 3/7/23; cols. 604-05.]

In this context, I welcome the reassurances given by the Foreign Secretary to your Lordships’ House last week, and his reminder that

“we should focus on what is happening in the West Bank as well as Gaza”.—[Official Report, 13/2/23; col. 147.]

He cited what he called the “chilling statistic” that 96 Palestinian children had been killed there since the horrors of 7 October, but I respectfully suggest that his proud statement that the Government had for the first time just taken out sanctions against violent settlers does not add up to much, given that it was only four settlers. On the Government’s own website, the FCDO’s press release announcing those sanctions states that Israel’s “failure to act” in the face of “unprecedented levels” of violence, harassment and intimidation,

“has led to an environment of near total impunity for settler extremists”.

I echo my noble friend Lord Grocott when I ask what hope there is for the holy grail of a two-state solution if one of those states is subject to ever more illegal settlements that deprive Palestinians of their land and livelihoods? When the Government talk about speaking with one voice internationally, they cannot be surprised if some organisations and citizens want to see more than speaking—actions, not words. And if central government will not take decisive actions against the illegal settlements, of course they might well look to local government, which will now be powerless to act.

The Minister sent us a letter which tried to reassure us about some of the concerns raised in the Commons, including those regarding protection of the environment and freedom of speech. There is not time to go into any detail now, but suffice it to say that civil society organisations concerned about the Bill have not been reassured. Nor has the higher education sector—I declare an interest here as an emeritus professor. Universities UK fears that the Bill will have

“severe unintended consequences for the higher education sector”,

including contradicting existing duties regarding freedom of speech and academic freedom, as well as official policy and guidance on establishing international partnerships and collaborations, as has been already mentioned.

To conclude, the impact assessment explains that the Government decided on primary rather than secondary legislation so as to “allow for proper scrutiny”. It points out that

“good parliamentary scrutiny of legislation can allow parliamentarians and civil society to highlight problems in bills before they become law”.

Well, the Government have not shown much, if any, willingness to listen and act on concerns raised so far. While I wish they would withdraw this miserable, dangerous Bill, I, like my noble friend Lord Wood, am a realist and I hope that, at the very least, they will take seriously the problems that I know will be highlighted during its passage through your Lordships’ House and that they will act so that those problems do not become enshrined in law.

Minister for Disabled People

Baroness Lister of Burtersett Excerpts

Tuesday 19th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I do not see it as a downgrade at all. The previous Minister was also the Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work. To the extent that portfolios are changed, when Ministers are experienced—I know this myself—you can sometimes improve how the work is done through these other areas. There is a big example here in the back to work package announced in the Autumn Statement. We really need that multibillion-pound package pushed through with vigour and energy, which I am sure the new Minister for the Disabled will deliver.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, not only have the Government downgraded the role of Minister for Disabled People but a recent report of the Women and Equalities Committee concluded that:

“The National Disability Strategy does not resemble a strategy”,


and that engagement with disabled people in its formulation was poor to say the least. What steps are the Government taking to try to restore—or perhaps I should say build—the confidence of disabled people and the organisations that represent them?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

The Government are doing just that. The noble Baroness will know that the national disability strategy promised in the 2019 manifesto was held up in the courts. That is now behind us because the courts found in favour of the Government. We are also developing a disability action plan for the next 12 months. These are immediate actions to help people. The consultation on the action plan closed in October, and we will carry that forward very soon.

Universal Credit (Transitional Provisions) Amendment Regulations 2022

Baroness Lister of Burtersett Excerpts

Monday 24th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Farmer (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister told the House on 17 October that, as of February 2022, 5.18 million working-age adults, or 12.7% of the GB working-age population, were receiving out-of-work benefits. She explained that the largest categories were universal credit “out-of-work” or those with “no work-related requirements”, but can she inform the House how many are claiming the legacy employment and support allowance? Presumably, they would all be migrated as part of “move to UC”.

She also said that the DWP is trying to reduce the flow into unemployment and inactivity through prevention and retention work by supporting disabled people and people with long-term health conditions. Will the migration of people currently claiming legacy employment and support allowance into universal credit mean these claimants receive more attention from work coaches, with the aim of their being better enabled to work? This is not about being punitive, but ensuring that no one is simply parked on benefits when their well-being and sense of purpose would be greatly boosted by working or increasing their hours. This is obviously even more important when there are so many vacancies.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for tabling this important regret Motion, which she introduced with her usual power and precision. All I can do is reinforce some of the points she and the noble Lord, Lord Storey, made emphasising how much this matters for both the well-being of claimants, particularly those in vulnerable circumstances, and transparency and accountability to Parliament.

I have yet to see a convincing justification for the removal of the stage gate, which was introduced to assuage concern raised in both Houses. Two reasons were given by the then Secretary of State in a letter to the chair of the Work and Pensions Committee in May: first, that early lessons and observations were captured during the truncated pilot in Harrogate. We have not been told what those lessons were and, curiously, in oral evidence to the committee in June, the next month, the same Secretary of State said:

“We learned a bit in Harrogate, but not a lot. The main thing we learned in Harrogate is not to do it the way it was done in Harrogate.”


That is all the more reason, one would have thought, for maintaining the piloting approach that Parliament was promised. But, no, apparently UC’s resilience during the pandemic means that a pilot is no longer needed. As my noble friend pointed out, that was a very different exercise involving a very different group of people, almost certainly far fewer in vulnerable circumstances. Instead of the pilot, as we have heard, we have what is called the discovery phase—which sounds so appealing, like a mystery cruise, but has actually reassured no one, particularly the SLSC and SSAC, never mind external stakeholders.

Although ultimately SSAC drew back from recommending that the stage gate be retained, it made clear its concerns at its abolition. Among the points it made was the need to monitor the impact of the declining ratio of staff to claimants during the discovery phase and to publish before the Summer Recess the criteria for scaling up and moving on to the next phase of implementation, yet, to my knowledge, they have still not been published. Why not? Will the Minister give an undertaking today to do so, and to ensure that the declining staff/claimant ratio is monitored?

These and other issues, as we have heard, stem from a concern about the risk to claimants of the whole exercise. When the original regulations were considered, the view was put strongly by SLSC and SSAC that the balance of risk lay too heavily on the claimant. This was why CPAG, of which I am honorary president—I am grateful for its full briefing—Z2K and disability organisations called for the automatic transfer of migrated claimants, rather than requiring them to make a new claim. I never saw a plausible reason for rejecting that idea, but clearly it will not happen. As my noble friend asked, could the department at least consider the suspension of an existing claim rather than its termination in cases where a new claim is not made in the required period—not least because of the implications for transitional protection?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

I think I have emphasised the value of regular meetings, updating people and giving them the opportunity to advise us of things they are worried about and things that have gone wrong. I have given my word here. I know our Secretary of State—

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

Whoever it is.

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, saves the best line till last. I have no doubt that we want to take people with us; we want to know what does not work, and we want to amend it. I give noble Lords my word and the Government’s word that we will have that interface.

The point the noble Baroness raises about the people who will be better off and those who will not—they will not be any worse off with transitional protection—is a very fair one. These are the sort of things that people talk to each other about and get very worried about, so I will take that back and try to give a more definitive answer than I have given, if that is acceptable to the noble Baroness.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

The Minister keeps talking as if transitional protection is the answer. As noble Lords have pointed out, many people will not get it or will not get it for very long, and there is the whole question of the inflation uprating. It is worrying for people: if they know what is going to happen, they know that transitional protection may not last long at all. So, please do not talk as if that is the answer.

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

I have no intention of talking as if that is the answer and nothing will be wrong after that. I understand that it has a fixed life. Our job is to work with these people, and I understand the vulnerabilities. I understand the barriers people face when work coaches are trying to find them extra hours they can do, taking into account the things that are stopping them now. The relationship with their work coach will be invaluable. There is nothing in a work coach’s job description that says they must say, “You’ve just got to do this”. I hope that the relationship with the work coach will make a huge difference, and that they will go to their superiors when there are real issues that cannot be overcome through those channels.

Out-of-work Benefits

Baroness Lister of Burtersett Excerpts

Monday 17th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

My noble friend makes many important and accurate points. As of February 2022, 5.18 million working-age adults, or 12.7% of the GB working-age population, were receiving out-of-work benefits, the largest category being UC out-of-work or no work-related requirements. We are trying to reduce the flow into unemployment and inactivity by supporting disabled people and people with long-term health conditions; prevention and retention work, including launching a national information and advice service to help employers, because it is only employers who create jobs so they are the ones we need to work with to move people into work; and our interventions that I have already described, including large-scale trials of additional work coach support for the 2.8 million customers with health conditions.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, as the noble Lord acknowledged, many of those in receipt of out-of-work benefits are not in a position to take paid work because of, for instance, caring responsibilities or long-term incapacity. Given the evidence of the dreadful hardship they are already experiencing, will the DWP do all it can to ensure these benefits are uprated in line with inflation next year and are not subject to further cuts, as has been rumoured?

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

Please believe me when I say that we all understand the desire for benefits to be uprated in line with inflation. I have to wait until the Secretary of State carries out her review, which will be announced to the House on 25 November. We will work with people with really bad conditions and real difficulties to see whether they can move into work, but they will be dealt with compassionately and carefully.

Carer’s Leave: Government Departments

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Tuesday 19th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I am responsible for the Civil Service, but obviously I hear the sentiment of the House. I have indicated the way forward. Some of the things that the great legion of carers does you cannot place a monetary value on. You cannot cost love. However, I take very firmly the points that the noble Baroness has made.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, I was heartened by what the Minister said about the Private Member’s Bill, but what criteria will the Government use to decide whether to support it? Carer’s leave should not be thought of as special leave. Caring is fundamental to human life, particularly the lives of many women. Under what circumstances would the Government not support the Bill?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, that is a matter for colleagues across the Government. I have reported to the House the current situation. It may be no accident that the Bill has come forward but I undertake, as far as I can on behalf of my colleagues, that we will be as accommodating as we can be to that Bill.

Elections Bill

Baroness Lister of Burtersett Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments
Wednesday 27th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Willetts (Con)]

My Lords, I want briefly to refer to Motions B and B1. In this House, we moved and passed an amendment that would have significantly added to the list of possible identifications that could be used by voters. I continue to believe that that would have reduced the risk of genuinely eligible voters finding themselves unable to vote. Nevertheless, that amendment has been substantially rejected in the other place and, as we have just heard from my noble friend Lord Cormack, we are drawing to the end of this Session.

I take some comfort from the words we have just heard from the Minister; I thank him for his engagement with this issue. He assured the House that it will be perfectly possible through secondary legislation to add to the list of identifications that can be accepted. He also assured the House that the Government will monitor the potential for new forms of ID to be used and improvements to the security of IDs, which appeared in our original amendment but have now been rejected. I hope that the evaluation he has promised will show that it is possible to add to the list of further IDs that can be used; that would be desirable. I very much hope that the Minister and the Government will be as flexible as he has said. In the light of his assurances and the clear rejection from the other place, I do not think that it is now our role to pursue this issue further.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, I support Motion A1, but I want to speak briefly to motion B1, which I also support. My primary concern throughout our debates has been the impact on the ability of people experiencing poverty to exercise their right to vote. I am not going to repeat the arguments, but I hope I can get a couple of assurances on the record from the Minister.

First, I thank him, as I understand he has asked officials to include organisations led by people in poverty— such as Poverty2Solutions and, I would add, the APLE Collective—in their ongoing consultations about the implementation of the Bill, so as to get their expertise on the experience of poverty. I would welcome it if the Minister could place that commitment on the record.