Security in the UK

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Monday 10th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, this has been a well-informed—one might even say learned—debate, and I hope that I do not bring the tone down too far. It is obviously a huge topic, so I am going to pick a few issues where I feel the Government have got it extremely badly wrong. I would have added digital issues as well if I knew more about them, but as it is I have four.

The first issue is Prevent. No one would disagree that prevention is better than cure, but at the same time you have to make sure that what you put in place actually functions. I argue that Prevent does not: it has far too many failings. It has targeted too many innocent people, including children. At this stage, it does not have the respect of the communities that it is meant to be engaging with and has become counterproductive. Part of the problem is that it is vague and prone to misapplication, particularly because its definition of extremism is so broad. The noble Lord, Lord Macdonald, QC, a former Director of Public Prosecutions, has described the definition as “hopeless”. Despite a declared intention to introduce a counterextremism Bill, there is not yet a statutory definition of extremism. The only working definition of it is the Prevent one:

“vocal or active opposition to fundamental British values”.

That is just too broad and encompasses far too many people.

The NGO Liberty has done a very good briefing on Prevent, which I can pass on to noble Lords. Its three recommendations are: repeal the statutory duty, which has absolutely failed and brought Prevent into disrepute; drop the focus on non-violent extremism; and establish an independent review of Prevent. We have had something close to this from the Prime Minister, but we really do need to move on with it. We need a community-led, collaborative approach to tackling extremism. The vast majority of people want to help to defeat terrorism, and we tend to ignore them. What the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, called a “culture of resistance” is exactly what we need. We need to engage with people and get them to trust us.

My second issue is the Government’s declared intention to establish a commission for countering extremism. We still do not know much about this commission, but we understand it will be statutory and called “the Commission for Countering Extremism”. Apparently it will,

“identify examples of extremism and expose them”.

It also includes proposals to regulate online spaces with a digital charter. We already have laws that fulfil these needs; we do not need any more. We need to use the laws we have and resource them properly. Part of the problem is that the agencies responsible just do not have the resources to do the job. The Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation, Max Hill QC, has said that we do not need new laws to tackle the current terrorist threat. Despite this, the Government are still going to try to legislate and not even just for terrorism, but for what they call “non-violent extremism”. What does that mean? Is it ideas that are difficult, unpleasant or offensive or just ideas that the Government disagree with? The simple fact is that it is impossible to agree a definition of what constitutes an extremist. We all have very different ideas—personally, I would argue that the DUP is an extremist organisation. It is quite dangerous to set up a commission responsible for defining, identifying and exposing people whom it thinks are extreme. As I have said in your Lordships’ House before, I am concerned that we will create our own distinctively British brand of McCarthyism.

I also have concerns about press freedom. It is surely a fundamental British value that our press is free and reports on all our strange ways, whether we are politicians or members of the public. I also have concerns that people will be seen as criminals through thought crime. They will not actually commit a crime; they will just be thinking about it. However, that does not make them criminals.

I am also curious to know whether we will have our own equivalent of the European Court of Justice. I think I saw something today about our having an interim relationship with it. I would like to know more about that, if possible. Where will people take their cases when they feel that the Government have been intrusive or that they have been overpoliced? Where does the DUP sit in deciding all these things? How much of a voice does it have? I would like some answers to those points. At the moment, there are more questions than answers, so anything that we can be told would be great.

My third issue concerns policing. Given the more than decade and a half during which I was a severe critic of the Met, when I sat on its police authority and then on a policing committee, I did not think that I would defend it quite so fiercely today. It has experienced massive budget cuts, which were far too fast and far too hard, which meant that no rational decisions could be made. The Met had to cut many millions of pounds every year. Personally, I think that has created a Met police force which perhaps is no longer quite fit for purpose. Although one might argue that its budget is not changing, if the budget is static while costs are rising, the force is much worse off.

The Mayor’s Office for Policing and Crime said recently that the Met already has a budget shortfall of £170 million for national counterterrorism work. That is work over and above its responsibility as a police force for the capital. That money is normally expected to come from the Government, so will the Government please pay that back to the Met? I would like to know that. Personally, I think that the Government should, of course, pay that, but somehow the magic money tree cannot be found when it is a question of Londoners’ safety. I find that quite offensive. If we are to forge better relations with communities so that we can have vital intelligence on all kinds of crime, including terrorism, many more community police officers are needed. That means understanding how we can prevent attacks on our freedoms. It is what the noble Lord, Lord Bach, called neighbourhood policing. There just is not enough of it anymore, which means that communities do not have an easy way to express their fears and concerns if they think they are a little too mild to report officially.

My last issue concerns Saudi Arabia. As a politician, I understand that we sometimes have to work with some very unpleasant people and we have to sit down with them and negotiate with them. We might loathe them, but we have to keep a dialogue going. However, we do not have to sell them arms. Saudi Arabia is a brutal dictatorship. It is one of the world’s worst Governments in terms of human rights abuses. We should not be selling it arms. Today the High Court ruled that the case brought by Campaign Against Arms Trade was not valid and that it was perfectly legal for the Government to sell Saudi Arabia arms. I would argue that, if it is legal, the law needs to be changed. We also all know that “legal” does not mean ethical— tax avoidance springs to mind, for example, in this context.

The Labour leader has said:

“If Theresa May is serious about cutting off financial and ideological support for terrorism, she should publish the suppressed report on foreign funding of UK-based extremism and have difficult conversations with Saudi Arabia, not hug Saudi and allied Gulf states even closer”.


It is very embarrassing that we are selling arms to a country that is responsible for human rights abuses in its neighbour Yemen. It is bombing hospitals, schools and wedding parties. How do we square with our conscience the fact that our arms are being used in that way? I would like to know a little more about publishing that report. We heard a little about that earlier, but I would like to know more about publishing it. Is it true that the Saudi royal family is involved in some way in the foreign funding of extremist terrorist groups here, because that is what people appear to be saying? It would be good to know that. If it does involve Saudi financing of groups here in the UK, that is absolutely unforgivable, and the Government need to do something about it.

Does the Minister truly believe that we need more laws to fight terrorism, or does she accept that we have enough laws and we just have to apply them properly? We already have a lot of intrusion into our private lives, and we have a significant amount of repression of people who think a bit differently. I find that unacceptable. Theresa May herself said something about celebrating the diversity of Britain, but everything the Government are doing seems to be closing down that option.

Finally, to echo the noble Lord, Lord Harris, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chelmsford, how far are we prepared to go in reducing our own freedoms as a response to people who are trying to take them away? It seems to be the exact opposite of what we should be doing—we should be celebrating our freedom and allowing more of it rather than closing it down.

Terrorist and Extremist Propaganda: Online Sources

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Wednesday 28th June 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Baroness is absolutely right not only that the internet is a useful tool to challenge this sort of activity, but that freedom of speech and use of the internet are important in our society. There is a fine balance between freedom of speech and speech that is downright extremist and hateful. That is why we have adopted our approach, which is to take down extremist material and put up a counternarrative, in the meantime, helping to educate people about the dangers of radicalisation.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, following that answer, can the Minister tell us what definition of “extremist” the Government are using?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The Government are not using the definition of extremism which I know the Metropolitan Police has designated the noble Baroness with. “Extremist material” refers to content that is assessed as contravening UK terrorism legislation.

Terrorism: Domestic Extremism

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Wednesday 26th April 2017 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they intend to refine the definition of domestic extremism, in order to enable the police to focus on those involved in terrorism and serious crime.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, the definition of domestic extremism used by the police is not statutory. Questions about the police definition and their work on domestic extremism are matters for the police.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

I thank the Minister for that evasive Answer. Quite honestly, of course it is a matter for the Home Office whether the police misuse their time. There is now a huge amount of incontrovertible evidence showing that the police watch peaceful, non-violent environmental campaigners. They are utterly wasting their time and not concentrating on people who can actually cause terrorism—terrorism, not tourism—in this country or commit violent crime. Will the Home Office take its responsibilities seriously about preventing such crime and make sure that the police follow some reasonable guidelines on what a domestic extremist is?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I do not agree with the point on the police misusing their time. On whether the Answer was misleading, the Question read:

“To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they intend to refine the definition of domestic extremism”.


It is not our definition.

Brexit: Crime Prevention

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Thursday 30th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Perhaps the right reverend Prelate would like to comment.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, perhaps I can bring us back to the Question. Will the Minister clarify whether, if sensitive information is going to be passed to the EU, that will exclude information that is held by the security services and by the police on environmental campaigners, journalists, photographers and even politicians who have committed no crime?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The information that is shared is for the purposes of investigating crime, so someone who had not committed a crime would be unlikely to have their information shared with other countries.

Illegal Imports: Dangerous Materials

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Monday 13th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I can assure the noble Lord that I am not going to shoot him. The NMIC brings together 14 maritime security stakeholders to provide the UK with a unified picture of maritime threat around the UK and globally. As I think I pointed out in previous Questions, a multi-agency, multi-effort approach to intelligence and security and control of our borders is the way forward.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

I am sure that the Minister is aware that wildlife crime is another international illegal activity that feeds into all sorts of crimes here in the UK. The wildlife crime unit is always under pressure. Interpol takes it incredibly seriously: it has 30 officers. Are the British Government going to take it seriously as well, and not cut its budget?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The British Government do take it very seriously; in fact, I was watching last night, as I am sure that the noble Baroness was, the programme that is on at teatime on Sunday, which I think is called “Countryfile”. It was about the death of wildlife and some of the wildlife crime that goes on. Yes, the Government do take it very seriously indeed.

Police National Database: Facial Images

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Thursday 2nd March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Generally, the presumption is that anyone concerned with crime, and fighting crime, will have access to the PND. As to which countries will have that access, clearly there are international arrangements for the sharing of data, and I am sure that that includes America.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, I still do not understand how an innocent member of the public will know that their image is on the database. Surely it would be easier for the police just to delete those innocent people without putting them to the trouble of applying. It would be more work for the police that way.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Baroness has a point, but in fact it is a manual process and would be incredibly resource-intensive. There will be people who do not mind their image being there. If my image were on the PND, although I do not think that it is—[Interruption.] If the noble Baroness’s is, I would expect her to request deletion immediately.

Pitchford Inquiry

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Monday 9th January 2017 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether a person may be designated as a core participant in the Pitchford inquiry into undercover policing if they are currently under surveillance, or subject to data access requests, for activities unrelated to any investigation of a serious criminal offence.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, the designation of core participants is a matter for the chairman of the undercover policing inquiry. The chairman will consider the inquiry’s terms of reference and the requirements of the Inquiry Rules 2006 when making his decisions.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

I thank the Minister for her response. It does not answer my Question, obviously. The problem is whether or not the police are still spying on people they have spied on before, who are now subject to an inquiry. Has the Minister asked for assurance from the police that they do not still have those core participants under surveillance? If she has, has she told the inquiry chair, Lord Justice Pitchford, who really ought to know?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I have not told the police. Obviously, I will not ask from the Dispatch Box whether the noble Baroness has asked the police but perhaps we could have a conversation about it afterwards.

Immigration: Detention of Pregnant Women

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Thursday 27th October 2016 Grand Committee

Asked by

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they plan routinely to publish statistical information on the detention of pregnant women under the Immigration Act 2014.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, I make no apology for returning to an issue that was discussed at length in this House earlier this year during consideration of the then Immigration Bill, now the 2016 Act, and which I raised again on 25 May, but I do regret having to do so. I feel that the Government have behaved badly here and I would like to hear an explanation. This is a vital issue that goes to the heart of the sort of nation we want to be and think ourselves to be. In the words of the Royal College of Midwives:

“Women who are pregnant are uniquely vulnerable in so far that they (and their babies) will always have specific, and sometimes serious healthcare needs which are time critical and may impact on health outcomes … Given these risks, and the fact that pregnant women are very rarely removed by means of immigration detention, there is simply no justification for detaining pregnant women in immigration facilities”.

To their credit, after more than a bit of nudging by this House, Ministers largely accepted that argument and Section 60 of the 2016 Act provides for a new 72-hour time limit on the detention of pregnant women. This can be extended to seven days if authorised by a Minister. In common with the Royal College of Midwives, the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, Maternity Action, Women for Refugee Women, Medical Justice and many members of this House, I believe that pregnant women should never be held in detention. I would have much preferred to see the Government agree to an absolute ban on such detention. In the words of Medical Justice:

“Even short-term detention can be harmful to pregnant women and their unborn babies”.

As I said, the 72-hour time limit, which came into force on 12 July, represents a significant and very welcome step forward. However, if we are going to have confidence in this time limit and its effectiveness, and in the Government’s stated intention to end the routine detention of pregnant women, it is essential that meaningful statistics on the detention of pregnant women be publicly available. On this, not only has there been disappointingly little progress since the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen, told me on 25 May that the Government were considering how best to collate the information on detained women, but the Home Office has actually actively hindered efforts by Women for Refugee Women and others to monitor the use of detention and compliance with the new time limit. Since the Home Office started collecting information on the detention of pregnant women in August 2015, following a recommendation from Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Prisons, Women for Refugee Women has asked to access that data through freedom of information requests.

The Home Office took almost five months to respond to the first request, which was made in February this year, and did so only after the Information Commissioner’s Office upheld Women for Refugee Women’s complaint that the Home Office had breached Sections 1(1) and 10(1) of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 by failing to respond substantively within 20 days. Women for Refugee Women put in a second freedom of information request at the Home Office on 23 August, but as of today it is still awaiting a response and has been forced to lodge a further complaint with the Information Commissioner’s Office. I find it a matter of concern that even after the upholding of a complaint by the Information Commissioner’s Office, the Home Office still does not appear to regard responding to such requests in a timely manner as at all important. Its failure to comply with the 20 working-day period specified in the Freedom of Information Act hinders scrutiny of the use of detention of pregnant women.

More generally, I find it astonishing that five months after the Minister told this House that the Government were busy considering the options for the collection of data on detained women, we are still awaiting a mechanism for making that data publicly available. After all, we are talking—at least, I hope we are—about a relatively small number of women, so I simply do not see how difficult it can be. Once they have said that they might be pregnant and they have been examined, surely it is easy to collate that information. Ministers have asked us to accept that they have committed themselves to a new policy to minimise the number of pregnant women in detention. I am willing to accept that, if the Home Office would only make the tiny effort necessary to allow proper scrutiny.

Data collection aside, in June the Home Office issued a draft detention services order on the care and management of pregnant women in detention. It sought comment on the draft and stated that a final DSO would be published over the summer, but as of today it has yet to release that—not to mention that in the view of the Royal College of Midwives, the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, Maternity Action and a host of others, the draft DSO was absolutely inadequate. Accordingly, I have some questions to which I would very much like answers. I understand that it may not be possible for the Minister to give them all today, but I hope I do not have to go through a freedom of information request because obviously, that will take a long time.

I would like to know how many pregnant women have been held in immigration detention since the implementation of the new time limit on 12 July. How many of those women were held for more than 72 hours? How many were removed from the country and how many were released back into the community? When will the Home Office start publishing these figures and other data on a regular basis, and when will it publish the final revised detention services order? On a day when we have heard that the Government have been forced to pay out £14 million to 573 people who were wrongly imprisoned under immigration powers, and earlier this year an inspector’s report said that Europe’s largest detention centre near Heathrow was “dirty and run down”, “overcrowded” and with “seriously insanitary” toilets and showers, it seems that something has to be done. If we are a nation of people who pride ourselves on our compassion and upholding our principles, this is something that we need to deal with, and quickly.

Finally, I hope that the Minister can give us an assurance today that any further freedom of information requests on the detention of pregnant women will be dealt with by the Home Office in a legal and timely manner, and certainly within the 20 working-day time limit.

Immigration: Detention of Pregnant Women

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Wednesday 25th May 2016 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will make it their policy routinely to publish statistical information on the detention of pregnant women under the Immigration Act 2014.

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Keen of Elie) (Con)]

The detention of pregnant women under Immigration Act powers occurs in only very limited circumstances, either where there is a clear prospect of early removal or in very exceptional circumstances. Very few pregnant women are detained. With the implementation of the Immigration Act 2016, the Government are considering options for the collection of data on detained women who have disclosed their pregnancy to the Home Office.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

I thank the Minister for that reply, and it is welcome news. Is there any timetable on this? Can we be sure that it is going to happen within the next few months? It seems incredible to me that it is beyond the wit of the Home Office to count the number of pregnant women who are held in detention.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

At present there are management data from diverse sources, including medical data, border data and detention data. The Government are considering how best to collate the information and whether it will be necessary to actually publish it. I ask the noble Baroness to bear in mind that our intention is to minimise the number of pregnant women in detention, and that will dictate how we proceed.

Investigatory Powers Bill

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Wednesday 27th April 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

With respect to the noble Lord, Clause 217 does not provide anyone with unlimited powers with respect to these matters; it deals with technical capability notices—a notice which is given after discussion with the Technical Advisory Board to a company requiring it to retain the ability to decrypt information if and when an appropriate warrant is served pursuant to Clause 36 of the Bill. Therefore, it applies only to the extent that it is reasonably practicable for the company to comply. The relevant tests are clear in the Bill, as the noble Lord may recall, as he sat on the Joint Committee that considered the Bill between November 2015 and February 2016.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, will the Minister explain Clause 217 a little more clearly? It suggests that a warrant might be sent overseas from the UK. Does the opposite apply as well—that UK tech companies might get an overseas request to break encryption, with which they have to comply?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am obliged to the noble Baroness. Let me be clear: Clause 217 is not concerned with warrants but with technical capability notices. They precede any question of a warrant. A warrant or a notice would proceed under a different part of the Bill. I do not want to elaborate on this because the Bill will be before this House in the very near future, at which time these details can be considered. However, to pick up on the noble Baroness’s last point, on companies that are overseas but have a presence here and provide services here, the warrant does extend to those companies. With regard to companies overseas, the warrant may be served there. They may have an answer that it is not reasonably practicable to respond because, for example, their own domestic law forbids them doing so. However, the Government have already initiated discussions with the United States of America to come to an agreement on reciprocal enforcement of these relevant and important provisions.