Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Excerpts(11 years, 7 months ago)
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Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)
My Lords, first, I welcome the government amendments within this group. As the Minister said, this is undoubtedly a useful addition to the regulator’s toolkit. However, although I am of course delighted that the spirit of my amendment is acknowledged, we cannot wait any longer for this. The Legal Services Act 2007 envisaged that complaints against claims management firms would be able to go to the legal services ombudsman. That was widely welcomed by Which? and everybody else. We know that in August last year the Government made the formal announcement that complaints by consumers against claims management firms would be able to go to the legal services ombudsman. That was agreed on both sides of the House and was warmly welcomed by us.
However, that was in August last year. Since then we keep hearing, “Don’t worry about it, don’t worry about it”. I have raised this issue in other Bills and there was an exchange of correspondence between me and the noble Lord, Lord McNally, about the importance of getting this done. Nothing happened—the last letter was in November. I should explain briefly to the House that the absolute desire is that these complaints should go to the legal services ombudsman. The Legal Services Act only enables that procedure to take money from barristers and not from claims management firms to pay for the ombudsman. Of course, because the regulator is the MoJ, that is a form of taxation so the only thing stopping this happening is the technicality of how we fund it.
That was accepted by the Government but they did not seem to come up with a vehicle to do this. I offered to do it for them via a Private Member’s Bill. That was prepared with the help of Which?, particularly Mark McLaren who did a lot of work on drafting that Private Member’s Bill, which we then offered as the vehicle to solve this. Nothing happened to that, although it was not declined until 12 November when the Government laid these amendments—which we were not expecting. The amendments are very welcome but do not solve the problem for two reasons: first, they do not allow consumers to get redress; and secondly, they therefore preclude the intelligence that would come from complaints. Frankly, people complain against something only if they have a chance of compensation.
Although the Government say that they will look at this, that is what they have said continuously since August last year. That being the case, we will want to put this to the House, either today or at Third Reading. I had hoped that the Government would say today that they would bring this matter back by Third Reading. Perhaps they could clarify whether that will be at some time in the future—which basically means another couple of years—or whether they are willing to do it by Third Reading.
Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 (Regulated Activities) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2013
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Excerpts(11 years, 11 months ago)
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Baroness Kramer
My Lords, I shall comment on three aspects of these orders, of which I am very supportive. First, I welcome the elements of the order that create a regulated environment for peer-to-peer lending platforms. While most industries have spent their energies saying, “Remove red tape”, this industry has been coming to the Government and the regulator saying, “Please can we have proper regulation”, because it knows that without proper regulation, rogue players can come in from the outside, undermine the credibility of the industry and probably provoke a regulator to come in with inappropriately heavy regulation as a consequence.
Can the Minister reassure me that the industry has been involved in negotiating and structuring these regulations? It looks to me as though they meet the test, but can he assure me that they reflect the kind of safeguards that that industry has already outlined in its code of conduct, established under its trade association? I think that that code was to be the basis of most of the discussions. It is a real way forward because, as we know, the banks have been very challenged over providing the credit we need in our economy, and peer-to-peer lending is increasingly coming in to fill that gap to provide both competition and additional resource, which is useful and positive.
Secondly, I pick up my noble friend’s comments on payday lenders. I share many of his concerns about this industry. Indeed, the whole House did so, as the Minister will remember, during the passage of the Financial Services Bill in 2012, when an amendment that we colloquially called the Sassoon-Mitchell amendment put very effective powers into the hands of the FCA. When it takes over supervision of this industry in April 2014, the FCA will have powers to regulate, manage and supervise it.
The powers were written with an eye to some of the regulation that has been put in place in Florida—I believe 13 states use this kind of regulation—which includes the ability to limit the amount of borrowing to $500 outstanding at any one time, to limit the number of outstanding loans, to cap interest rates and fees and to provide for a grace repayment period. It also has various other characteristics. I would like assurance that the order does not compromise the wide range of powers sought by the House in the legislation and in the amendment.
Like my noble friend, I am concerned with the impression the industry is giving of marketing energetically and raising its interest rates above and beyond what most of us already regard as high levels. I hope the FCA will be able to hit the ground running. That means going through the consultation process and deciding how it will manage that regulation.
It is also a systems issue. As the Minister knows, the various US states that have regulation have systems that allow them to see on a real-time basis what applications are taking place, what the amount is, what the interest rate is, unauthorised rollovers and so on, and they are able to manage the process. This not only allows the regulator to look at the data and intervene in retrospect, but enables it to set up systems so that if the rules are contravened an automatic decline shows up and an offending loan cannot be made. While it needs time to put such a system into place, I wonder how likely it is that the FCA will be in a position to deliver it as early as April and, if not, what the thinking is around it.
I am afraid my next question comes from my lack of understanding and my difficulty in reading my way through orders. It concerns social impact investment, the financial promotions order and its relationship to the FCA. The Minister will know that if, for example, a social enterprise attempts to create a new community hall, it can turn to members of the local community and ask them to donate. However, it cannot ask them to invest without offending Finprom unless it has become a qualified investment, which is financially impossible for any kind of small project.
We raised this issue during the passage of the Financial Services Bill and the Government expressed their desire to deal with this problem and enable a project to turn to individuals with small amounts of money and allow them to invest. Will the FCA have the necessary power to make those changes under Finprom without having to come back for new primary legislation? I assume that, in the end, we will see a kind of materiality clause that will state that if you want to make an investment of less than £500, or whatever, you will not have to go through all that incredible palaver and you will be able to do so. Will these orders affect that, or will it fall outside their scope?
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his clarity in introducing these orders. Very often we are not wholly behind what the Government are doing but, on this one, we are. We welcome the move to the FCA and these SIs. I have supported the policy behind them for a long time, but I do not know for how long my party has done so. We particularly welcome the powers they give to the FCA. As the Minister implied, they will be its enforcement tool kit for consumer credit and will strengthen its powers to punish misconduct. We also welcome the Government’s decision not to exempt small businesses, as that might have weakened, rather than strengthened, consumer protection.
Queen’s Speech
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Excerpts(12 years, 1 month ago)
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Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
My Lords, I shall speak about consumer rights, on which a number of things are to be welcomed. First, I welcomed the opportunity of hearing the maiden speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox of Soho. We look forward to her continued activity on behalf of consumers, particularly in disadvantaged communities. Secondly, I welcome the proposed consumer rights Bill and everything in it. Anything which can be done to make markets work better for consumers is good for the economy, as well for consumers. I also pay tribute to the role played by the Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, in accepting our amendment on requiring letting and managing agents to belong to an ombudsman scheme. That is going to make a real difference to tenants and landlords, and help clean up the sector, which can only be good for the provision of much-needed homes. She should be proud of the results of her arm-twisting. Thirdly, I welcome the opportunity that will be provided through pre-legislative scrutiny of a draft Bill. This will ensure that we end up with a Bill that will make a real difference to consumers. That is probably enough of the good side.
I now turn to what is not in the Bill and where the Government have failed to help consumers. We on this side have tried to amend various Bills to help consumers. We sought to have the Prudential Regulatory Authority and Competition and Markets Authority set up consumer panels. The Government resisted. We sought to amend the Financial Services Bill and the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill whereby service providers should have to exercise a fiduciary duty towards their retail savers or beneficiaries. The Government resisted. We asked for the Competition and Markets Authority to include members drawn from a consumer background. We failed. We sought to prevent the closure of Consumer Focus. Sadly, we failed.
Furthermore, funding of trading standards has been slashed, thereby making the identification and prosecution of scams and rip-offs even less likely. The Government also failed to introduce a register of lobbyists. Yet who has the money to pay for fancy public affairs companies? It is not consumers. Whether it is the tobacco industry, drinks manufacturers, the insurance industry, food producers or newspaper proprietors, their bought access is never in the interests of their customers but of those industries’ bottom line. We need to know who is paying for such access. Sadly, the Government omitted from the gracious Speech proposals in this area. When tested, the Government have shown themselves to be lacking in resolve to help consumers negotiate complicated or unfair markets. The Government have failed to put consumers’ interests centre stage. Other measures in the Queen’s Speech, such as requiring landlords to check the immigration status of tenants, are likely to lead to more unofficial letting or to fewer available lets, both of which disadvantage potential tenants.
I turn to the proposals, which, although welcome, do not go far enough and miss the opportunity to ensure that consumers always get a fair deal or, failing that, easy access to redress or restitution. We welcome the enabling of “opt-out” collective redress in competition cases, whereby firms found guilty of competition law breaches will be more likely to pay damages to all affected consumers. However, the proposals are limited to competition and do not cover breaches of consumer law. Why is there no provision for claims to be brought by representative bodies, which could cover product liability, mis-selling or unfair terms such as over bank charges? We welcome the proposal to clarify the law on unfair terms in consumer contracts, which will enable, for example, bank charges to be assessable for fairness by the OFT or its equivalent body. We welcome the introduction of redress for a breach of consumer protection regulations, which will clarify the law and extend consumers’ ability to claim for losses from misleading advertisements or aggressive sales practice. We welcome the remedy for consumers when they have not received what they expected from a service, although we would like this to be extended to where the service was substandard, even though the provider used skill and care.
We welcome the provisions to clarify consumer rights for purchases with digital content. However, it is not clear whether a consumer can get a refund for faulty digital content. We will return to this matter in due course. As with our letting agents amendment, we support consumers having access to redress but would like to go further, with better enforcement and the possibility of a single portal to assist such access. We will seek to ensure that the Bill provides for a strong, accessible, collective redress mechanism, similar to those in Portugal and Australia.
Finally, where are the measures to respond to constant consumer problems? These include cold calling; energy bills increasing by £300 a year since the Government came to office; ever-increasing rail fares, up 9% a year after the Government allowed train operators to increase some fares by 5% above the cap; and extortionate charges on some pension savings such that on retirement some pensioners find that nearly half their pension fund has been wiped out by charges. We need a tough energy watchdog to force suppliers to pass price cuts on to the consumer and to ensure that the over-75s automatically get the cheapest tariff. We need intervention on rail fares and rights for passengers to get the cheapest ticket available, without having to be a whizz-kid on the computer—be they my noble friend Lord Mitchell or our latest noble Baroness.
We need transparent charges on pensions and savings, and to tackle the worst offenders by capping charges at 1%. In addition, we should have had a communications Bill to help consumers, involving greater protection for children and action to tackle the industry’s concentration and monopolistic nature. We need to strengthen people’s rights in a digital consumer’s charter that should cover privacy and online theft, price transparency, greater ease in switching providers, help for parents to protect their children online, improved access to decent broadband, consumer protection for digital payments, and effective action to tackle nuisance calls, texts and spam e-mail.
In short, we need action to create a culture that respects consumers and helps them to obtain a fair deal across all markets. We need to tackle rip-offs and sharp practice, and we need a Government to be on the side of users and consumers, not a voice for the producer or service provider over the less powerful consumer. We will welcome the consumer Bill but work to improve it to make it the best that it can be.
Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Excerpts(12 years, 4 months ago)
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Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
My Lords, I beg to move Amendment 1 in the name of my noble friend Lord McKenzie of Luton.
Baroness Meacher
My Lords, I support Amendment 1, which seeks to ensure that the Government have flexibility to increase benefits in 2014-15 and 2015-16 taking account of the level of inflation at the time. The amendment does not seek to impose a particular percentage increase in benefits in any year. It simply seeks to avoid the straitjacket imposed by the Bill as it stands.
Amendment 1 covers all the benefits and claimant groups referred to in Schedule 1. It would therefore leave open the possibility of a Government deciding to protect a particular group, perhaps disabled people or children. This amendment has become particularly pertinent in the light of the downgrading of the British economy by the ratings agency Moody’s at the end of last week, along with the anticipation of yet more quantitative easing and the expectation that in these circumstances we will have more inflation year by year. That inflation comes on top of a level of inflation which is already above 1%, which is vital to this set of amendments and, indeed, to the Bill.
This Bill has to be considered in context. As noble Lords know very well, last year’s Welfare Reform Act has already capped benefits and imposed the bedroom tax so that an increasing percentage of everyone’s rent will be paid out of their personal allowance, leaving them with the most pathetically small amount of money to cover food, heating, clothing and other necessities. Also, the Government have already changed the basis of annual welfare benefit increases from the RPI to the CPI. This is absolutely crucial because that measure alone, before this Bill, is expected to save £5.8 billion a year. Such savings can be achieved only through imposing the most incredible hardship on many of the most vulnerable people in this country. The proposed limiting of upratings to an increase of 1% will be an increase in the consumer prices index, not the retail prices index, so it is not even going to cover an inflation rate of 1%. That is how bad it is. It is the compounding of the previous Welfare Reform Act with this Bill that is so deeply shocking to many of us.
The cumulative impact of all these changes and the proposed 1% uprating limit is not yet fully understood even by the experts in the field, let alone by its victims. But it is not surprising that there is deep concern in those organisations which have to work with vulnerable people, including the CAB service. It is worried stiff about its clients and the capacity of the bureaux to cope with what is going to be an unimaginable flood of people in desperate circumstances. The Government are breaking the long-standing link between annual incremental increases in benefits and prices. Once lost, it will be very difficult to restore it. Indeed, it is difficult to imagine that happening for decades. That is how serious this is. It is not just one little part of a Bill; it is actually historic because it changes the whole way we look at increases in welfare benefits.
Has the Minister undertaken an impact assessment on this Bill, including an estimate of the likely cost of increased mental breakdowns and the resulting impact on mental health services? Has the Minister assessed the costs arising from the result of increased crime rates and the impact on the criminal justice system, and from the impact of increased homelessness on local authorities? Also, I refer to the overall impact on communities of what I fear we will see in terms of increased unrest. It is very difficult to believe that we will not experience unrest in communities that are profoundly hit by the combination of all these changes—not just arising from this Bill, but from a combination of everything that is being done. I would be grateful if the Minister would reply to this question: has the impact of this Bill, combined with the previous Bill, been fully assessed in terms of services and costs? If these implications have not yet been estimated, does the Minister agree that that must be done before implementation of this Bill?
I want to challenge the Government’s rationale for this uprating Bill—that welfare benefit increases must take account of the public sector pay freeze and the low level of pay increases across the economy in recent years. Citizens Advice is right to argue that a 1% increase means something very different to somebody on an average wage from what it means to somebody on welfare benefits. A 20% increase in out-of-work benefits in the period 2007-12 resulted in an average annual increase in income of only £2.37 per week. A lower percentage increase, of 15%, in public sector pay during the same period provided an average increase in income for public sector workers more than five times greater. It was a lower percentage but a much greater increase in actual terms.
Small Charitable Donations Bill
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Excerpts(12 years, 6 months ago)
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Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
My Lords, first, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, as through a small misunderstanding the names on the speakers list got put in the wrong order. I am not he. I also thank the Minister for introducing this welcome Bill.
The recent fall-off in charitable income—20% according to one recent report—particularly affects small and medium-sized charities, and this Bill is perhaps therefore even more important than it was when it started its life. Indeed, we understand that some one in six charities is threatened with closure and up to 40% worry that they may have to close if the economic situation fails to improve. A recent ACEVO report commissioned by the Cabinet Office revealed that charities stand to lose £1 billion this year as a direct result of government actions, at a time when demands on many charities are increasing, not least as a result of the Government’s economic policies. Nearly half the charities covered in this month’s CAF survey have been forced to use reserves to cover income shortfalls, with a quarter cutting some of their services.
We welcome the intention of the Bill and, indeed, its timing. We are not alone. The RNLI called it,
“a great opportunity for charities”.—[Official Report, Commons, Small Charitable Donations Bill Committee, 16/10/12; col. 36.]
The Institute of Fundraising estimates that it will benefit “a range of charities”.
The idea is good but the Government have made things far more complicated than they need to be. “Overly bureaucratic”, says the National Association for Voluntary and Community Action. Peter Lewis of the Institute of Fundraising said:
“The way that it has been drafted makes it far more difficult than Gift Aid itself”.
The Charities Aid Foundation, with all its experience and knowledge in the field, believes that,
“many charities that should be eligible for the Small Donations Scheme will struggle to access it”.
In particular, it stated that,
“linking the Small Donations Scheme to Gift Aid ... means that there is a hidden codicil”—
to the scheme—
“which should read ‘as long as they are also claiming sufficient normal Gift Aid on other donations, and have been doing so for at least two years’. This makes it less likely that very small organisations will be able to benefit from the scheme”.
Although we heartily wish the Bill well, we ask the Minister to think seriously about the problems raised repeatedly in the other House, especially where no movement was made by the Government. Of course, we are delighted with the changes that were made, in particular the changed ratio from 2:1 to 10:1, which opens up the scheme to many more charities, and the reduction from three to two years to qualify. I pay tribute to my colleagues in the other place, Cathy Jamieson and Gareth Thomas, whose determination and hard work, and in particular their understanding of the sector, enabled them to change the Minister’s mind. I hope that I will have similar success this evening; if not in amending the Bill, at least in getting a commitment out of the Minister. I will come on to that.
In seeking to assist small charities, the Government have come up with the most complicated of procedures that will involve far too much paperwork. This risks undermining their whole purpose. Of course, given that there is so much paperwork, there will undoubtedly be charities—Eton comes to mind—that will be well placed to take advantage. I am sure Eton has a large staff and, no doubt, a whole office dedicated to fundraising and gift aid. However, small grass-roots charities, parent-teacher associations or groups looking after victims or those with drink problems will not be able to. Many have no full-time staff, and they are exactly the charities that are answering phones, seeing clients, teaching riding to disabled children or running food banks. There is too much bureaucracy for them to handle.
Indeed, it seems that HMRC is more concerned with fraud than helping charities—the same HMRC, we must remember, which fails to tax Amazon, Starbucks, or Google, whose own executive chair said that he was,
“very proud of the structure that we set up”,
which was based on government incentives.
Will the Minister assure the House that those small but essential charities will be able to operate the complexity of this scheme, without the mass advice of a Google-sized team of lawyers and accountants? What thought has been given to those small charities which, by virtue of their size or lack of big donors, are not able to take advantage of gift aid and will therefore be excluded? Even those who do use gift aid are concerned, as the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, said in your Lordships’ House on Wednesday, that despite the fact that,
“the number of donations being given online and by text is increasing … charities are losing out, because gift aid is not yet fully digitised”.—[Official Report, 12/12/12; col. 1059.]
The scheme will succeed only if small local charities are aware of it, but these are precisely the ones less likely to be involved with the Charity Finance Group, the NCVO, CAF or the other umbrella organisations. How are they going to hear of it? We were disappointed that the Charity Commission chose not to give evidence to the Public Bill Committee. It makes us wonder how big a role it sees for itself in promoting the scheme—but if the commission does not do it, who will? Will the Minister outline his plans for publicising the scheme? We have heard talk of road shows, but we know that small charities do not have the time to spend time at those. I hope there will be something a bit more imaginative.
Perhaps the biggest problem with this overcomplicated scheme is the set of regulations covering community buildings. Although this might have been designed to assist church collections—which we thoroughly understand and endorse—it has ended up disadvantaging some of our most important groups. The RNLI is one organisation that has concerns, given that lifeboats, needless to say, carry out their work not in buildings but at sea. Where does the defined charitable activity take place: at sea or in the lifeboat station? If donation points are outside the station, how can one determine whether a donation was made during charitable activities or events? The definitions are too specific and not grounded in reality. Given such concerns about the workability of the new scheme, will the Minister tell the House whether HMT—or HMRC—consulted with relevant experts on the charity sector and, if so, which ones?
I come to the point where I seek a commitment from the Minister. We want this Bill to work. We need this Bill to work. However, it is key, given that we cannot amend it, that the Government look long and hard after two years at whether it is achieving all that we hoped for it. I therefore ask the Minister, quite simply, to commit to undertaking a review that will ask that question and report its results to Parliament. We need to know: how many charities are benefiting from the scheme; which are full, exempt or excepted charities; what the total outgoings on the scheme have been and how much extra money reached the charities, as well as the cost of administering it; and, finally, the level of identified fraudulent claims.
I feel certain that the Minister himself will want to know the answer to these questions. Will he undertake to share them with this Parliament—not after five years but after two? If the scheme does not work, those charities will need help by some other route to enable them to continue to do their work.
Financial Services Bill
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Excerpts(12 years, 7 months ago)
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Viscount Trenchard
My Lords, I support the amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Flight. Since the disappearance of the traditional bank manager from the high street, customers have increased difficulty in communicating with their banks at all, let alone to request a transfer to another bank.
What particularly irks me is that when you seek to engage with the successor to a bank manager by telephone—or when you respond to a text message requiring you to telephone the bank—you first have to go through a long process of answering questions put to you by a machine to establish your identity. If you successfully pass such questions, you may eventually be able to speak to a human being, who will then proceed to put you through an identical process of security checking. I wonder why you cannot be put straight through to a human being, rather than wasting time on your telephone, usually on an 0845 number or something like that, answering questions put to you by a computer, because it does not make any difference. When you speak to the person, the person requires you to do the security again. It is then very often the wrong person and you are transferred to another department and you have to go through the process again, probably in duplicate, first with a computer and then with another human being. Therefore, you have to allow at least 30 minutes if you are going to attempt to engage with a bank to do something that ought to take five minutes.
I welcome my noble friend’s amendment. It should be made much easier to transfer your bank account to another bank. For a long time the mobile telephone companies resisted a similar facility to change supplier; I understand that it is now much easier to change from one company to another. I see no reason why it should not be so in the case of banks.
However, in order to permit the customer to do this, banks should be required to provide forms for this purpose on request—and the request should be able to be given in writing or orally—making clear what information is needed. Otherwise, people writing in may not give the correct address or branch of the bank, and the banks will have reason not to act on the request. So the forms should be standardised and make clear what information should be given.
At the same time, the individual should be required to grant permission to bank A that it may release on behalf of the customer what my noble friend calls the anti-money laundering information—the material that it holds in that connection—because otherwise bank A will surely be prevented from releasing such information to a third party under data protection legislation. It would be necessary to agree a prescribed time limit for the transfer of such information, because in the case of somebody who has banked with a certain bank for 40 or 50 years, material that bank may hold dating many years back may be irrelevant to bank B. Does my noble friend have any comment on that?
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
My Lords, my noble friends Lord Mitchell, Lord Peston, Lord Barnett and Lord Davies of Oldham have all had the opportunity to thank the Minister today for hearing their arguments and meeting them. Perhaps it is now time for the Minister to do the same for one of his own side, and accept these arguments from his noble friend Lord Flight. The noble Lord, Lord Flight, is right on this: consumers will only be able to drive competition if they can swiftly, easily and cheaply change bank accounts. Without that, there really will be no way to drive up standards.
It was interesting to hear the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, talk about phone calls and automatic voice recognition. It reminds me of a wonderful publication produced by the National Consumer Council called The Stupid Company. This asked a whole lot of consumers, not just in financial services, “What are the things you most hate about companies?” In the top three was automatic voice recognition. It was really interesting that when that was played back to companies, they continued to use it although they knew that it was the thing their consumers most hated. Banks are like that. Until people can change banks easily, I fear that they will continue to do things that none of us likes. I hope very much, therefore, that the Minister can send Lord Flight home happy this evening by having accepted his amendment.
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts
The noble Baroness leapt to her feet very quickly. I know that the House is like a horse running for the stables, and I will not detain the House long. I support my noble friend’s amendment. As regards money-laundering and transferability, I would like to pick up a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Newby, in replying to the debate on 24 October, when he talked about the transferability of direct debits and how that works as regards the Payments Council initiative.
I am afraid that this again involves the charity sector. There is general agreement that there are far too many charities and that many ought to be closed down. There are many thousands of shell charities, which are the result of mergers. There has been a perfectly proper merger and there was no problem as the Charity Commission, the trustees and the lawyers were all happy with it. However, when you ask why this shell charity remains, it is because the banks will not accept the transfer of standing orders and direct debits to the new, enlarged charity. The charity then has to go through the process of asking every single direct debit and standing order signatory to re-sign. Administratively, that is an extremely complicated process and many of course decline to do so.
I am not asking my noble friend to reply tonight but I say this in the hope—it is probably a forlorn hope—that the Payments Council is listening to this debate and might therefore see whether it can find some way to enable this administrative inefficiency to be dealt with. That would enable some of these shell charities, which no longer need to exist and exist only to collect direct debits and standing orders, somehow to be subsumed into the new charity of which they are now a part.
Financial Services Bill
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Excerpts(12 years, 7 months ago)
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Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
My Lords, I thank the Minister for what I think he thought was reassurance on this amendment. Nevertheless, he will not be surprised to know that I still find it regrettable that it makes permissive, rather than obligatory, the publication of names and details where a firm has been obliged to withdraw a misleading advertisement rather than withdrawing it voluntarily.
At the very least we seek an assurance from the Minister that the default is publication, with non-publication being the exception, rather than each finding of misleading ads having then to consider whether publication of the fact should proceed. Otherwise, it is a complete reversal of what I think the Government seek to do. Had the Government accepted my amendment earlier, which would have introduced a code of conduct for financial services, we may have had to rely much less on this, because there would have been fewer ads to withdraw.
I will take only two seconds here. I was very interested to read on Thursday that the Chancellor of the Exchequer accepted the need for professional standards to keep banks’ behaviour in check. It is a shame that he did not tell his noble friends beforehand, otherwise perhaps the Minister could have accepted our amendments. Perhaps, in compensation, the Minister will take a moment when replying to indicate what sort of organisation the Chancellor envisaged should be set up to ensure professional standards in the banking industry.
This is of course relevant to the Bill because it is about preventing bad behaviour, whereas the amendment that the noble Lord has just moved is about dealing with something after the event. For the moment, will the Minister assure the House that the default position will be to publish the findings on misleading promotions, with details being withheld only in exceptional circumstances?
Lord Peston
Partly because of the noise I did not quite get all the argument that the noble Lord was putting forward. Is his argument that the FCA thought there was a problem, got involved, then heard some cogent reasoning from the firm concerned and therefore felt that there was no need for this to become public knowledge? That, I think, is the noble Lord’s argument, but there is one bit that troubles me. Would firms—and consumers, for that matter—not benefit if they knew about the problem and discovered that there was a good case for not proceeding with it? In other words, one of the things that we lose from not making what happened public is that, outside of this, no one gets to learn anything from what happens. Can I persuade the Minister just to respond to that?
I agree with my noble friend on the Front Bench, of course, that if we had had a code of conduct in the first place, along the lines that she suggested, we would not have a problem anyway.
“140CA Co-ordination with FCA on exercise of functions to promote competition
(1) The FCA and the competition authority must coordinate the exercise of their functions to promote competition in financial services.
(2) The FCA and the competition authority must prepare and maintain a memorandum of understanding which describes the role of each regulator in relation to promoting competition in financial services markets.
(3) The memorandum of understanding should make clear the OFT will only conduct a market study into a financial services market within the regulatory remit of the FCA in exceptional circumstances.
(4) The regulator must publish in such manner as it thinks fit the memorandum of understanding.”
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
My Lords, in moving this amendment standing in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Eatwell, I can hardly do better than quote directly from the Association of British Insurers. The association supports the new rule for the financial services regulator to promote competition in financial services because it believes that properly functioning, competitive markets can deliver good outcomes for consumers. However, the ABI urges further consideration of the practical implications of the FCA’s enhanced role in ensuring such competition. Given that the OFT, and later the CMA, will retain general competition law powers and the right to conduct market studies in financial services, there is, says the ABI, a risk of duplication and/or a lack of co-ordination between the two bodies. Uncertainty about the expected role of the two organisations is unlikely to lead to good regulation either for the industry or consumers. The ABI therefore thinks that the FCA and the OFT should be subject to a statutory duty to co-operate and to produce a memorandum of understanding. While the FSA and the OFT have voluntarily published an MoU, this will become a “must have” when the FCA receives its enhanced competition remit. The MoU should be a statutory requirement and should make clear that the FCA would normally take the lead on competition matters in financial services, with the OFT undertaking market studies only in exceptional circumstances. While the OFT and the Competition Commission and, later, the CMA would lead on enforcing the Competition Act—for example, over cartels—it would be the FCA, as the specialist regulator, that would be best placed to conduct analysis of financial services markets and pursue any necessary regulatory changes. It is for these reasons that the ABI has supported Amendment 86A.
Those in this House who are also following the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill, which will bring about the merger of the OFT and the Competition Commission into the CMA, will have been struck by the comments in government briefings on financial services. The BIS papers on the ERR Bill stress the FCA’s stronger role in promoting competition compared to the FSA at the moment. It notes that both the CMA—the Competition Markets Authority—and the FCA will regulate financial services, with the FCA being the lead regulator and the roles of the two bodies therefore complementary. BIS goes on to state that the FCA will have a mechanism to make sure that the CMA’s powers and expertise are brought to bear in financial services. The CMA will have a mechanism to review competition in financial services and to recommend that the FCA takes action. Indeed, the FCA will have a power of referral to the OFT which will not prevent the FCA taking the lead in addressing competition issues where it is better placed to do so. I hope that noble Lords are all following this.
The FCA will also be required to respond to any recommendation given by the competition authorities. Furthermore, under the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill, the CMA will be able to appoint a third party to monitor the implementation and compliance of remedies. Within financial services, we assume that the FCA could be one such third party where this is deemed appropriate by it and the CMA.
As must be clear from the briefings from BIS, which I assume noble Lords from HMT have also read, there are major competition issues within the financial sector, yet the ERR Bill regrettably makes no mention of the uncompetitive nature of the banking sector, which is highly damaging to our economy. We are all aware of the denial of access to finance being experienced by SMEs. We need a more diverse and competitive banking system, and the PRA, FCA and CMA simply must address this if the financial sector is to serve the wider economy. Neither the Bill before us today nor the ERR Bill indicates how this issue will be tackled, but tackled it must be. It must be crystal clear, as BIS says in its note, that the FCA and CMA will need a memorandum of understanding.
It is not enough for such a vital document to exist on a voluntary basis. It should be a requirement. Equally important, it should be visible to all with an interest and should therefore be published by both parties. In due course, I will seek to lay this responsibility on the CMA under the ERR Bill. Today, we seek to lay it on the FCA in this amendment. Similarly, I will in due course propose that the CMA has an obligation to co-ordinate its work with the FCA. Today, we ask the equivalent of the FCA. I beg to move.
Viscount Trenchard
My Lords, I support the amendment because I believe that there is too little in the Bill about the maintenance of competition. It is too confused. I personally regret that the PRA has no need to have regard to the maintenance of the competitiveness of the market place. The co-ordination between the FCA and the CMA, as the amendment would require, would help to concentrate minds on exactly how important competitiveness is and to increase awareness among consumers as well as firms and participants. That competition is extremely important and must be maintained and, where possible, enhanced. The amendment would help in that regard and I am inclined to support it.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Newby, for making my case. He said that who the lead regulator is will depend on the issue. The bodies will have to work closely together. The one thing that he did not explain was why on earth we should not write into the Bill that the two regulators should co-ordinate and have a memorandum of understanding. It seems a simple point.
I thank the noble Lords, Lord Trenchard and Lord Phillips, and my noble friends Lord Peston and Lord Barnett, for their support. I also thank my noble friend Lord Borrie, whose advice, given that he was director general of the OFT, I take seriously. The last of the three amendments does not touch on the difficult issue he raised, that is, laying down who does what. It basically says there should be a MoU between these two very important issues. The Minister says not to worry, that there is one and they are working on it, but in the interests of transparency, I would have preferred to see it statutory and therefore published. However he is clearly not going to give way on that, so I fear I must. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Financial Services Bill
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Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts
My Lords, I wonder if my noble friend could deal with one aspect of his explanation of government Amendment 94A. It may be that I misunderstood what he said. Is this to be a general removal of power—that is, a backstop—or is it going to be available in individual cases? It is not clear from his explanation whether it will be gone for ever or if an individual case could say to the Treasury, “We are going to be unfairly treated. Please step in”. At the moment, the former is a very blunt instrument and a lot of eggs could be broken before you get back to a more satisfactory situation if you felt that the regulator was using the power unwisely, unfairly and disproportionately. Could he explain the point when he comes to wind up the debate?
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing these amendments and I hope I am right in understanding that the backstop power is for the whole thing and not for individual cases. I see that the Minister is nodding in agreement that I have the interpretation right. I thank him for that now being an affirmative order if it was to be changed. I am confident that the public interest will not bring it back to this House, so I am quite relaxed about it.
The other amendments aside from the first one relating to the backstop power are about ensuring some independence on the issue of warning notices, or in the case of Amendment 97ZA in the name of my noble friend Lord Eatwell and myself, on the whole disciplinary process. This amendment would ensure that a properly constituted and independent determinations panel would be responsible for dealing with all cases presented by the FCA or indeed by the PRA. As I explained in Committee, that is in effect the procedure introduced for the Pensions Regulator in 2004. It is seen as robust and independent, and it has indeed turned down some of the cases that have been taken to it. I would have to say, of course, since I was a member of it, that it was effective. It has been a useful way of ensuring that there is confidence that when cases are brought by staff, they are well scrutinised.
As the Minister has said, the government amendments in this group other than the first one on the backstop go some way to answering our concerns. However, I do not think that they go quite far enough, although I guess that we should be grateful for some movement. They introduce a degree of independence to the consideration of a case brought by FCA or PRA staff, but they fail to ensure the continuance of the RDC to give its statutory backing. We hear what the Minister says about the statement of the current FSA on what the future FCA will voluntarily choose to do, but I hope that the Government do not at some point in the future rue the day that they failed to protect the RDC’s existence and independence. For the moment, however, perhaps the noble Lord could confirm the Government’s commitment, not just that of the FCA, to the continuance of the RDC.
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I think that I can probably be briefer than I had intended in responding to these amendments. I will confirm again that the backstop power is, as my noble friend has characterised it even though it may not be what he would like to see, a “gone for ever” backstop. However, I hope it will give comfort that we will keep under review the way this important new power is operated.
On Amendment 97A, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Flight for saying in terms that he is reassured by the effect of Amendments 97ZA and 97ZB, to which I spoke at some length, so I will not go over that ground again. The issue about the difference between the FCA and the PRA here is a simple one. We see the FCA as being the regulator that would issue these types of warning notice and to which the new power applies, and we do not actually see the PRA doing it. That is why we have constructed things as they are and we can rely on the approach of the RDC continuing as we have discussed. But if the PRA were to get into the warning notices business, which we do not anticipate, there are provisions in the Bill that would cause it to look at how it would construct an independent process that might take it down an RDC-type route.
I am not sure whether the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, was expecting me to say more about Amendment 97ZZA because we have agreed that we went over this ground on 15 October. I am grateful to her for what she said about the government amendments, so unless she would like me to go on at some length, I think that we have probably done it justice. However, I am grateful for this short debate.
Lord Whitty
My Lords, with most of this Bill being about regulators and the whole structure of regulation, I am returning to a proposition which would in due course return some power and leverage to consumers directly. As we just heard from my noble friend Lord Kennedy of Southwark and others speaking on claims management companies, it is often the case that in widespread abuse by financial services operators a common issue between a number of consumers, often a very large number of them, is that the process of seeking any redress is lengthy and complicated if conducted on an individual basis. It is also open to the intervention of the rougher end of the CMC market, which manages simultaneously to exploit the consumers and the providers.
In Committee, I tried to do the Government’s work for them and offered them an easy way of taking on board a system of collective action and redress by consumers. I proposed a fairly detailed set of amendments, which were almost precisely the same as those that were included in the 2010 Bill, that were dropped without debate in the wash-up prior to the general election. At that time, I proposed that various amendments should immediately be adopted by the Government. They had cleared the Treasury hurdle. They had cleared the hurdle of parliamentary counsel and could have been adopted.
The Government resisted that, and I am suggesting that we push it back to the Government to come up with an alternative version. I am giving them more flexibility to draw up their proposals, so this amendment would require them to come up with secondary legislation which would effectively give collective redress and action provisions for consumers in the financial area three months after the passage of this Act. To give them more time would probably not be sensible, given that had these provisions existed before the great PPI scandal, a lot of it would have been resolved by now.
In the last debate in Committee, the Minister referred in rather Delphic terms to a more general approach to collective redress for consumers, which was being considered by his sister department, BIS, in its approach to consumer affairs. He did so in a way which implied that it was probably going to act on that in the near future. It is true that BIS has included collective action and redress in its consultation paper on the consumer landscape. Now, we have before this House a Bill from BIS dealing with enterprise and regulatory reform, which has not a word about consumer protection and certainly none about the ability of consumers to engage in collective redress. This is in marked contrast to the determination rapidly to reduce protection for employees in that Bill. Consumers hardly get a look in.
I come back to the need for particular provisions in this Bill for the financial sector. There is an additional point in this amendment, which was not in my previous amendment, but was in an amendment proposed at that stage by my noble friend Lady Hayter. It is that this provision for collective action should also apply to small businesses. Like individual consumers, they are often faced with mis-selling or other misbehaviour by financial services, which affect a large number of small businesses, but which would be expensive and time-consuming for any individual business to pursue. If there were a framework, whether on an opt-in or opt-out basis, for small firms to take action against the financial institution or institutions, again their detriment could be met much more rapidly. Hence, I am proposing that the Government cover them within this review, with the requirement to report back and present regulations in three months’ time.
I hope that the Government at the very least accept a need to move in this direction either individually in respect of the financial sector, which has some peculiarities, or more generally. If it is to be done solely on the financial services front at this stage, then perhaps they could accept my amendment as it stands and we will in due course receive the regulations. If they want to move more broadly, I would welcome that, but I have received no indication as yet that the Minister’s colleagues are proposing in any very near-time dimension to bring such broader provisions forward. I hope that either the amendment can be accepted or that we will have a firm commitment to broader action in the near future. I beg to move.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
My Lords, I support the amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Whitty. To some extent, the third arm of this amendment has been partially agreed by the Government, in that their proposed criteria for designating super-complaints to the FCA include representatives of SMEs—although they wisely exclude authorised bodies from this category. I have two questions to pose.
First, what is the timescale for the designation of SMEs as super-complainants? In his response in Committee, as my noble friend Lord Whitty has just reminded us, the Minister, Lord Newby, said that the Government hoped,
“to publish their response”—
to the consultation—
“before the end of the year”.—[Official Report, 15/10/12; col. 1351.]
Unless the Minister is to forego his Christmas holiday altogether, this is going to stretch even his capabilities, as responses to the super-complaint issue are due only on Christmas Eve. Amendment 106 adds a timescale to the exercise. Perhaps he could either give a definite date or accept the timescale suggested by my noble friend Lord Whitty. There is some urgency to this. The FSA estimates that more than 40,000 interest-rate swaps were mis-sold to small businesses. It is silly for each of them to have to take individual action over this, so only collective cases will satisfy. We see no reason why each individual or firm must make a separate claim. I cannot see why the onus should not be on the banks, which are the major mis-sellers, to write to those to whom they have mis-sold and repay the monies due to them. We understand that some banks have now agreed to do this, but faster action is required. We hear that ominous noise of foot-dragging. Small businesses simply cannot carry this unwarranted expenditure; they need a more rapid remedy.
My second question relates partly also to Amendments 105E, 105F and 105G, which deal with super-complaints with profits. As the Government have moved some of that oversight to the jurisdiction of the FCA, our original request was superfluous and we shall not press those amendments. However, the question remains how either individuals or SMEs can pursue, through their representatives’ use of a super-complaint, market failures where these relate to the bit of the banks’ activity that is under the PRA’s remit.
As noble Lords will recall, the Government have resisted our attempts to have any channel of communication between the Financial Services Consumer Panel and the PRA. Nor will they have access to super-complaints to the PRA and the collective action suggested by my noble friend Lord Whitty. It rather smacks of the banks’ regulator being deaf to alleged failures in any of the banks serving the needs of their customers.
Hitherto, the Government have suggested that all such representations can be made through the FCA, even though it will have no responsibility for PRA areas and even though it will have a wider remit than just the interests of one group of clients. It will anyway be very much at arm’s length from actual consumers. The issue remains of how collective action can be taken, particularly with respect to banks. Can the Minister therefore offer some reassurance that the PRA, in its regulation of banks and with the new Governor in place, will keep the interests of consumers central to its thinking and policy, so that further consumer detriment does not arise?
Financial Services Bill
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“( ) In seeking to ensure an appropriate degree of protection for consumers, the PRA and FCA shall—
(a) require banks to provide clear and prominent warnings to consumers where deposits are not covered by the Financial Services Compensation Scheme; and(b) make and maintain effective arrangements to consult consumers on the prominence and method of such warnings.”
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
My Lords, this amendment stands in the name of my noble friend Lord Eatwell and myself. It relates to passporting and, in particular, where a UK-authorised bank works in another EEA member state. Our concern, as we raised in Committee, is about adequate protection for consumers in those EEA states. This amendment would require the relevant authority, be it the FCA or the PRA, to require banks to make clear, prominent warnings to consumers where their deposits are not covered by the Financial Services Compensation Scheme. It is fairly obvious that it is vital that consumers know precisely and clearly whether their deposits would be covered by this compensation scheme and the extent of such coverage.
In Committee, the Minister assured us that it was sufficient for such a requirement to be in the regulator’s rule book. We have considered this further and we would beg to differ. It is such an important area of consumer protection and really important for the confidence in our banks that we must ensure that every depositor knows the security of their deposit. Furthermore, given that we saw a range of views in Committee on where and how such warnings to customers should appear, it is important that consumers themselves are consulted on this so that the most effective method of communication is used. I beg to move.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
My Lords, I am generally sympathetic to Amendment 77AA, but what would the consequences be of a breach of its provisions?
Lord Newby
I will check what I said, but it may have covered what the noble Lord is looking for. If it does not, I shall write to him with the relevant wording.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
My Lords, I am sorry that the Minister did not listen to what I said, which was the reverse of passporting. It was about the passporting of our banks into EEA countries. I was interested in the protection of customers in those areas who are served by the UK banks that are being passported there but would be regulated here. Our regulator should therefore cover that. That is a different issue from the one that the Minister has answered. If he would check on that, I would be quite happy for us to revert to the matter at Third Reading. I am interested in consumers wherever they happen to dwell, such as the consumers in EEA areas being served by our banks. I am therefore worried about their lack of coverage by our compensation scheme, which should be brought to their attention. If I could leave the Minister to clarify that, at this stage I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“( ) In the event of a prohibition order being made, the FCA and PRA shall—
(a) publish an explanatory statement regarding the decision; and (b) include the individual on an updated list of those subject to prohibition orders to be presented on HM Treasury’s website.”
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
My Lords, this amendment stands in the name of my noble friend Lord Eatwell as well as mine. It is about transparency and we have moved from passporting to prohibition orders, with a big jump to Clause 12. The amendment would ensure that, when a prohibition order is made, the regulator publishes its reasons and the individual's name appears on a list of people subject to prohibition orders on the Treasury website. The purpose of this is both to promote good practice, by making it clear what constitutes bad practice, and to enable investors and others easily to identify who has been subject to such an order.
As was clear in Committee, the issue did not really divide us. At that stage, I quoted Matthew Hancock as saying in another place,
“the principle that prohibition orders on people who are not fit and proper persons should be published is crucial … Prohibition must not only be a sanction for past irresponsible behaviour, but a deterrent for future irresponsible behaviour … the point of prohibition is not only … to stop the actions of those who have … committed acts that make them not fit and proper, but to demonstrate the bounds of behaviour that are deemed responsible and reasonable”.—[Official Report, Commons, Financial Services Bill Committee, 6/3/2012; col. 384.]
The then Minister, Mr Mark Hoban, agreed that prohibition is both a punishment and a deterrent.
When we discussed this in Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Newby, replied in this House along similar lines, saying that,
“regulators ought to give explanations of their actions and I do not think anyone would dispute the need for the identity of persons subject to prohibition orders … to be made known”.—[Official Report, 8/10/12; cols. 860-61.]
However, he felt that the existing duty on the FSA to maintain such a list was sufficient. We disagree with regard to the list of those prohibited. Investors and borrowers here and abroad would be more likely to see the Government as a source of such information, and we would therefore like HMT, via its website, to have a role in this.
With regard to the first part of our amendment, it is crucial, if the findings of a case are to help influence the future behaviour of other firms and authorised persons, that they can read and understand exactly what was alleged and why it was found to have transgressed acceptable behaviour. Hence there is the need to publish reasons. I beg to move.
Lord Newby
My Lords, as the noble Baroness says, we discussed this at some length in Committee and, to a certain extent, I am afraid I can only repeat what I said then. I repeat that FiSMA already requires the FSA to maintain a publicly available record of individuals subject to prohibition orders. The relevant subsection simply says that the register must include a record of every,
“individual to whom a prohibition order relates”.
and provides that the register must include the name of the individual and,
“details of the effect of the”,
prohibition order.
The FCA will keep these records in future and the Bill, in paragraph 17 of Schedule 12, also requires the PRA to assist the FCA in keeping the record up to date, including by notifying the FCA of every prohibition order that the PRA makes. The principal effect of the amendment would be to move these records from the FSA website on to the Treasury website. The noble Baroness said, in effect, that the Treasury website would almost command more respect or be more likely to be looked at for this purpose. We disagree with that. The Treasury website sets out government policy, not records of regulatory decisions. The logical place to go for a record of a regulatory decision is to the regulator. We think that it would be confusing if investors expected to go to the Treasury website rather than to the regulator’s website to get the relevant names and other information. In our view, it would be contrary to the noble Baroness’s stated objective of ensuring clarity and transparency. I am afraid I cannot give her much comfort. We believe that what we are doing meets her requirements and that those are better met by doing it via the regulator’s website rather than via the Treasury website.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
I thank the Minister for that response. I have a query that is not so much on the website. I think he said that the list was kept along with details of the effects of the prohibition order, which I assume means that this person cannot do this, that, or the other. We were asking for the reasons. I hope that he will look at this, even if there is only a recommendation back to the regulator. It is really important that the allegation and the reason why it was found proven is there as guidance for others. I hope that he will look at that and reassure me that the reasons are there, not just the effects of the prohibition order. With those comments, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“( ) The Treasury must lay before Parliament a copy of any statement published under this section.”
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
My Lords, we reach the last amendment of the evening, which stands in the names of my noble friend Lord Eatwell and myself. It is short, sharp and clear. The Bill allows for FCA statements of policy relating to its use of disciplinary powers to be provided to anyone, for a fee if necessary; to be given to the Treasury, presumably for free; and to be published as appropriate. Noble Lords will have noticed that the one body not automatically to receive the statement is Parliament. This amendment would correct that oversight. I beg to move.
Lord Newby
My Lords, no one disagrees with the proposition that certain important reports and other documents that are produced under the new regime should be laid before Parliament. A good example of this view is to be found in Clause 80 under which, if the Treasury in future receives a report relating to an inquiry or investigation carried out under the provisions of Part 5 of the Bill, it must publish the report and lay what it publishes before Parliament. Since these reports concern inquiries or investigations in connection with possible regulatory failure or on other matters relating to the public interest, this is clearly the right approach. It enables Parliament to consider the matter and, where appropriate, call upon Ministers or the regulators themselves to give an account of their actions. Indeed, the Government are so committed to ensuring parliamentary accountability in this area that they have tabled Amendment 107D to ensure that any direction that the Treasury gives regarding these investigations is also laid before Parliament.
However, the statement of policy issued by the FCA under new Section 88C is not a report of that kind. It is more like the guidance issued under FiSMA, although it is really guidance for the regulator itself rather than for regulated firms. This explains why the FCA must follow the procedure in Section 88D before it issues a statement, which is essentially the same as the procedure when the FCA issues guidance to firms set out in new Section 139A. The Treasury must be notified of any new FCA guidance or changes to existing guidance but it has never been thought necessary for the Treasury to lay that guidance before Parliament, although it will be available on the FCA website.
The approach that we are taking not only follows the general FiSMA model but it is the same approach that is taken in other regulatory legislation. For example, Section 38 of the Competition Act 1998 requires the OFT to prepare and publish guidance on the appropriate amount of any penalty imposed for abuse of a dominant position. It must get the Secretary of State’s approval for it but there is no obligation to lay it before Parliament. Equally, Section 392 of the Communications Act 2003 requires Ofcom to prepare and publish a statement containing guidelines on the penalties that it may impose under that Act or other legislation, except the Competition Act 1998. Again, though, Ofcom is not required to lay that before Parliament.
All we are doing is following normal procedure. We do not think that this kind of guidance should be laid before Parliament because it is guidance to the regulator and will be available on the regulator’s website. In those circumstances, I hope that the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that answer and, via the Minister, I thank his Bill team because they have clearly done some interesting research for us in areas beyond HMT.
Ministers have probably not made the right call. There will be an increased requirement for transparency and Parliament is becoming more interested in questions of guidance, particularly in relation to disciplinary matters. My guess is that there will come a time when more of these will come to Parliament, because saying that it is normal practice and we can go on as before is not necessarily always the right view. We will get there, even if it is not in the Bill, but for the moment I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Financial Services Bill
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Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
My Lords, there can be little doubt that an enforceable code of conduct is sorely needed in this industry. Many banks publish so-called codes of conduct that read impressively. The Barclays code of conduct says:
“We … expect every Barclays employee, and others who work on our behalf, to conduct themselves according to consistently high professional and ethical standards. This expectation applies equally to all, whatever their role”.
This from the bank that sold PPI and whose employees fixed the LIBOR rate. HSBC encourages employees to make decisions based on,
“doing the right thing but without ever compromising the ethical standards and integrity on which the company was built”.
Yes—that is the same HSBC that we learnt on Friday had been facilitating tax and AML-avoiding bank accounts in Jersey. Some integrity.
The Chartered Banker Code of Professional Conduct, which sets out the ethical and professional attitudes and behaviours expected of bankers, has been endorsed by virtually every major high street bank. But there is clearly something missing. The words are there, but the behaviours do not follow. The code does not have the necessary sanctions to strike people off the register, nor does it have governing structures independent of the industry.
Other professions have codes of conduct which are independently supervised and enforced. In the case of barristers and solicitors, the functioning and enforcement of these are overseen by the Legal Services Board. In the case of accountants, auditors and actuaries, they are overseen, and in the last resort enforced by, the Financial Reporting Council, which I noted before, sadly, gets no mentions in this Bill, despite the importance of its role. But here we are concerned with those bankers, and others, who do not belong to one of those professions and therefore have no individual code of conduct to cover integrity, the avoidance of conflict of interest and other behavioural matters. For them, there is no supervision of their individual behaviours, and no professional enforcement procedure; action kicks in only when specific rules are broken. This is not good enough for an industry that has shown itself lacking in the very attributes that this vital sector should have engraved in its DNA. The evidence read out about the last amendment by the Minister is ample evidence of that. It is an industry where conflicts of interest are too rarely identified, declared and avoided. LIBOR and PPI are examples.
There is a Bank of England code for members of the FPC, but there is no requirement for a code for directors and senior executives of banks and other parts of the financial services. Yet as the noble Lord, Lord Turner, acknowledged, bank directors bear responsibilities to the public which go beyond those of other private sector directors. Any failure on their part is therefore,
“of public concern, not just concern for shareholders”.
Hector Sants, then of the FSA, told the Treasury Select Committee that,
“we should change the regulatory regime to … ensure that people who have shown … serial misjudgment are not allowed to run financial institutions again”.
However, where does this Bill stop them? Simply relying on the significant influence function procedure may not be enough and, anyway, it is a slow burn. If the person concerned moves abroad, no penalty is exercised and no bonus returned. Or if they apply for a significant influence function after some years, there may be no current or warm evidence or witnesses on which to base a decision. A code of conduct is needed to which these people must individually sign up and a breach of which should expose them to investigation and possible action. Without this, we will continue as before with all our interests at risk.
I should note that the Government have accepted the need for a code to cover one aspect of banks’ day-to-day work—the submission of rates for the LIBOR benchmark. Amen to that; we will welcome that shortly. However, surely it is nonsense to agree the need for a code for just one aspect of the banks’ work, because it has been found wanting, but not to the myriad other decisions which banks and their staff take every hour of the day. The exact name of such a code may be debated: John Kay’s review spoke of good practice; some professions call it a code of ethics. The principle is that it governs behaviours, outlaws conflicts of interest and is enforceable. It governs the profession of stewardship, which is what most of this industry is about.
Since the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards was established, the BBA has launched a taskforce to investigate a code of conduct. However, I believe that a standards board run by the BBA—the organisation that administered LIBOR—would have zero credibility. A standards board must be independent of the industry, with the ability to set high standards, the tools to supervise the code and the power to strike off those who breach the code. The other professions’ codes of conduct lay down exactly what is expected of people and we need the same for banking. Anyone who breaks the conduct code should be struck off, whether for market manipulation, gaming indices or deliberate mis-selling. People should not be allowed in banking again if they have mis-sold a product.
I believe that confidence will not return until we strike off those whose conduct has let us all down. The details of the code need not detain us here. Amendment 31A, which is consequent on Amendment 25B, allows for the code to be drawn up by, we hope, the FCA and the PRA in consultation with relevant stakeholders. No one, I am sure, can argue against the intention of this amendment. I trust that the Minister will not argue against its wording. I beg to move.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have spoken on the amendment. I will give one specific answer to my noble friend Lord Peston: there would be a range of penalties possible under an enforceable code, from working under supervision to requalifying or even paying fines
It is disappointing that the Minister, if I heard him correctly, accepted the problem and—I think—the need for a code but simply said, “Not yet”. I do not think that is the right answer. We need to have stronger regulation. I do not agree that the approved persons regulation system worked—if it had, we would not have had all these problems. We need action now. It was not lack of regulation that led to PPI mis-selling, it was the banks’ lack of concern for their customers. It was not the absence of regulation that led to the LIBOR manipulation, it was, in the words of the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, a lack of morals.
Until we have an enforceable code of conduct across the whole of the financial sector to govern internal behaviours, we will not see the difference between the past and the future, to which I believe the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, also referred. I feel certain that the House will support the inclusion of a code of conduct within this Bill. We do not want to wait for a commission that may not have a unanimous report and whose findings the Government have said they will only consider, not endorse. Therefore, I would like to test the opinion of the House.
“( ) As part of upholding the FCA’s consumer protection and integrity objectives, and in order to support a cultural change across the UK financial system, the FCA shall also have a general duty to take into account firms’ professional standards.
( ) This must include—
(a) an assessment of firms’ competencies including the extent to which professional qualifications and continuing professional development are embedded across core functions; and(b) an assessment of firms’ conduct including adherence to a code of conduct or code of ethics, and the extent to which employees are members of a recognised professional body.”
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
My Lords, historically, bank managers were much trusted to act in the best interest of their clients, especially when I was a child. Sadly, however, today consumers and small businesses no longer retain that trust. Bank staff have been incentivised to sell complex and sometimes worthless financial products, such as interest rate swaps or PPI. Lloyds alone, for example, has had to set aside £5.3 billion to make good those mis-sellings. We need a banking system which is trusted: a return to old-fashioned stewardship banking which serves every region, business and family in the country. This demands professionalism, which this amendment seeks to embed within the Bill.
Ministers and regulators have both spoken about the importance of instituting cultural change within firms. The then FSA Chief Executive Hector Sants argued that regulators should,
“ensure firms have the right culture for their business model—the right ethical framework—to facilitate the right decisions and judgements”.
Earlier this year, in setting out his vision for a “new orthodoxy” in financial services, Martin Wheatley said that he wanted a world,
“where the culture of firms, from product governance to sales, is aligned with the best interests of the customer”.
These amendments seek to promote such a cultural change by ensuring that FCA supervisors judge professional standards when assessing the conduct risk posed by firms.
Professional standards are vital. The higher a practitioner’s commitment to professional standards, the lower the likelihood of customer harm. Likewise, high levels of professional standards are linked to increased consumer trust and confidence. However, the Bill makes no reference to professional standards, despite the recommendation of the Joint Committee and the evidence of incompetence and even dishonesty. This is a significant omission. Were they written into the Bill, the regulator would have greater persuasive powers and there would be a power incentive for firms to embed higher standards at every level. This would enhance consumer protection and underpin the integrity of the UK financial system. I beg to move.
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I spoke about the role of the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards when discussing the previous group of amendments. I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, doubts the seriousness with which the Government intend to take its recommendations. It is a joint commission of the two Houses—something that any Government would take extremely seriously. We acted to initiate the setting up of the commission so I am disappointed that the noble Lord seeks to tweak my tail on this one. When it comes to a legislative vehicle, I could not have made it plainer that we have already published a draft Bill. The Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill is on its way. That provides potentially a perfect legislative vehicle if there are things that come out of the commission, as no doubt there will be, that require legislation. The issues raised by Amendments 25C, 25E and 26C are firmly within the remit of the commission and it would be wholly inappropriate for us to jump the gun in a semi-considered way rather than waiting for the magisterial output of the commission in a short time.
Amendment 26D would add a new paragraph (f) to proposed new Section 1D(2) to be inserted in FiSMA 2000 under this Bill. It refers to,
“the fairness and integrity of policy and conduct of those directing or operating in the financial markets”.
That is on the same theme but seeks to place specific emphasis on issues of integrity and fairness by making changes to the FCA’s objectives. As we have heard from my noble friend Lord Phillips of Sudbury, Amendment 27A would specify that, in considering the effectiveness of competition, the FCA may have regard to the extent to which the,
“methods or culture of any competition may undermine the integrity objective”.
I sympathise with the amendment to the extent that it is clear that when the FCA considers taking action, it will need to consider all its objectives. Recent events have demonstrated how important it is that the regulator has a mandate to take action to protect and enhance the integrity of the UK financial system.
The Government have given the FCA the three operational objectives, as we have been reminded, of competition, consumer protection and integrity so that it determines the right balance between them in individual cases. The regulator cannot unduly prioritise any one objective and neglect to consider the others. My noble friend Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts has already given another construction, which perhaps is more balanced, of proposed new Section 1B(4) and I am grateful to him for that.
This is a complex interaction of provisions. In one case we are talking about a competition objective but also, in the context of proposed new Section 1B(4), a duty designed to ensure that the FCA considers competition as a means to, and in the context of, delivering other objectives. But that needs to happen only as far as it is compatible with the integrity and protection objectives. I believe that it is a keenly balanced series of interlocking provisions here, of which these are only two. Of course, there are further elaborations of just what the integrity objective and the other objectives involve. Further, it is important to “have regard to” under this new section. I believe that the balance is right and that there is no need to adjust the structure of the competition objective to require the FCA to consider integrity in the way proposed here.
Similarly, the FCA’s integrity objective will come into play when the FCA is exercising its general functions in relation to conduct. While it must think about whether competition is working in the interests of consumers, I do not believe that it is for the FCA to police the markets to establish and enforce what fairness is. I do not believe that fairness should form part of the explanation of the term “integrity”. It is a separate issue.
There are other issues about the interrelationship between the two new authorities. Proposed new Section 3D requires the PRA and FCA to co-ordinate their functions in areas of common regulatory interest where one may have relevant expertise or wherever one may have a material adverse impact on the objectives of the other. This means that, while it is right that the PRA must focus on its safety and soundness objective, where its actions may impact adversely on consumer protection it will have to listen to the FCA, which has a strong consumer protection objective.
In summary, I accept the wider point about the importance of these issues. As this short debate has teased out, these issues are very complicated. They are best addressed through the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards. In the light of that, I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
I thank noble Lords for their support on the amendment. I actually think that the Minister is wrong. This is not complicated; this is about integrity. The noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, had it right. We are not talking about how to impose rules. We are talking about something within the people who work in this industry. The problem is that the significant influence function has not worked. Sir Fred Goodwin was appointed under it. It was not working, it has not worked, and we need something different. We need it in the Bill.
The Minister talked about the report of the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards and what is going to come out of that, but that was not set up when the Bill was written. Would the Minister have accepted the code and the amendment on professional standards if Libor had not happened and if a banking commission had not been set up? The Bill was intended to mean no more failures and no more of that behaviour. We are talking about integrity. I had not planned to divide the House on this. However, as the Government have just voted against a code of conduct, I am so tempted now to put it to them that we should vote on professional standards to see whether they really want to say that they have a Financial Services Bill to make changes to the way we regulate but they do not want professional standards in that. For once in my life I will resist temptation. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.