Hunting Trophies (Import Prohibition) Bill

Baroness Fookes Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 16th June 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Fookes]

That the Bill be now read a second time.

[Baroness Fookes (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my animal welfare interests as set out on the register. It will therefore be no surprise to know that I warmly welcome the opportunity to take the Bill through its proceedings in the Lords, it having been ably monitored by Henry Smith MP in the House of Commons. Although it is in the form of a Private Member’s Bill, it has government backing, and in fact it implements a commitment made in the 2019 Conservative manifesto—although I have no doubt that that will not endear it to some colleagues around me on these Benches.

To deal briefly with the terms of the Bill, it bans the import of any animal trophy into the UK, with a slightly different arrangement for Northern Ireland. It defines precisely what a trophy is and restricts the ban to the lists set out in the wildlife regulations, which go back to the convention on trade in endangered species. There are two lists, the first of animals in danger of extinction, and the second of those getting close to that point. The Bill also arranges for an expert committee of three to be set up by the Secretary of State. He is under an obligation to do so, but, so far as I can judge, he has no obligation to ask it to advise him. That was added during the Commons consideration.

It is of course important to make clear that the Bill does not prevent any hunter from this country going to any country in the world and, subject to whatever regulations there may be in that country, killing an animal for whatever purpose he thinks necessary. What is prohibited is bringing back any part of an animal to this country as a trophy.

Of course, some of us may have had rather romantic notions about intrepid hunters risking life and limb, trekking through wild country in pursuit of a quarry. That is not what happens today. A business called a hunting outfitter either owns or obtains a lease on land for hunting and then sets up a comprehensive service, which will include lodges for overnight accommodation and food. It will provide every kind of expert equipment or weapons that may be needed, local guides and, I gather, transport to a suitable location where the animal may be found. Furthermore, to the best of my knowledge and belief, most of these outfitters are run by white people of European origin, not by indigenous people from Africa. Let us make no mistake: for those few who enjoy its fruits, this is big business. I can quite understand why they will make every attempt possible to get rid of any threat to that business.

Those who watch the wonderful wildlife films we now see, and have access to the much greater information that science has provided about the wonderful interrelationship of animals and the threats that greatly interfere with it, will wonder why anyone should want to bring back trophies of slaughtered animals that, let us face it, are in grave danger. In this Bill we are not dealing with animals that are plentiful. However small a part the Bill may play, we have to try to ensure the conservation of these precious species.

I know that many of those who speak today will describe various reasons why this is of benefit to the local community and for conservation purposes. I remain to be persuaded. No doubt, a great deal of this information will be provided to me—we shall see. As far as I can see, the impact that hunters have is even greater than taking out species already under threat. One of the problems is that hunters will naturally want for trophy purposes the best that can be found. Do not tell me that they will be content with culling some poor weak animal; they will want the lion with the most wonderful mane, the elephants with the biggest feet or tusks, or the horns of whatever it may be. The likelihood is that they will take out the best of the species, which unbalances that very delicate ecosystem, as we have seen having a devastating effect all too often.

There is some evidence that because elephants are shot for their large tusks, the elephants that remain are now producing elephants with smaller tasks—evidence of the way in which genes can be manipulated. There can also be other untoward effects, for example when a major, dominant bull elephant is killed. That leaves young males without what might be called the father figure or the controlling figure, and they can run amok. Again, that can destroy a delicate ecosystem.

I could continue with numerous examples of this, but I hope that others of my persuasion will be able to produce their own very relevant examples. I am concerned about the fact that many people in Africa do not share this view of trophy hunting. I would like to bring to your Lordships’ attention a letter that I think has widely circulated in the House; I will quote from it. It is a letter with 103 signatories, people who live or work throughout Africa. They include wildlife conservation experts, advocates, community representatives and people with detailed knowledge of what they are talking about. They write to

“express our steadfast support for the Hunting Trophies (Import Prohibition) Bill, sponsored by the Rt. Hon. Baroness Fookes, and to urge you to give the Bill your full support”.

Very tellingly, they go on:

“We are well aware that a small number of UK-based academics have been extremely outspoken in the UK media in their defence of trophy hunting in Africa and their associated opposition to this Bill. Although they purport to speak for Africa, they present grossly over-simplified and unsubstantiated arguments, and it is critical for Honourable Members of the House of Lords to acknowledge that they do not represent the views or experience of many scientists and community members living and working throughout the African continent. In addition, many international scientists have voiced their concerns about trophy hunting”.


They are speaking about Africa, of course, but it is important to note that the Bill would also apply to other parts of the world. Notably, Canada, which allows trophy hunting, has polar bears at threat of extinction for other reasons, to do with climate change, so it seems utter madness to allow such trophy hunting of these particularly endangered bears.

I am aware that many others want to speak, so I conclude by saying that I believe that the Bill is important and long overdue, and I commend it to the House. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Fookes (Con)]

My Lords, I have been called many things in my time, but to be referred to as a neocolonialist is a new one for me. I would have thought it would be applied more appropriately those who wish to perpetuate the trophy hunting culture, but I will leave that aside because we have had a long debate. There have been wind-up speeches from the Front Benches and, of course, from the Minister, who was almost doing my work for me, so I will not detain the House too long.

However, I want very firmly to challenge the view that the revenue gained from trophy hunting contributes greatly to local communities. My understanding is that very little percolates down to them, and that is something I stand by.

I was also challenged on why I was not meeting the high commissioners whose letter appeared in the Times yesterday. They are joint signatories to a letter. One of them is the high commissioner for Tanzania. Tanzania is engaged in a bitter dispute with its own people, a Maasai tribe who are being forcibly evicted from their lands. They have even sought help by coming to Europe as a delegation and going to various European countries and the European Parliament. So if trophy hunting is of such benefit to local communities, I wonder why the Maasai are taking that action. I suggest that there are far better ways of dealing with the problems of cohabiting with animals, crops and so on. There is no time now, but there are plenty of opportunities and plenty of examples whereby careful, thoughtful management of land can get animals and people to cohabit.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

I was told on the question of the Maasai that it also involved ecotourism.

[Baroness Fookes]

I have no knowledge of ecotourism. My concern was that they were being forcibly evicted from their land in a way they did not wish. Beyond that I cannot comment.

I can see that there will be no great meeting of minds on this one, so let us be quite frank about it. I believe that the Bill has a modest and useful part to play, and I am encouraged in this by a letter I received this morning from the former President of Botswana, Lieutenant-General Dr Seretse Khama Ian Khama. He writes: “My experience based on facts over 23 years as head of the Defence Force, as Vice-President and then as President, are that hunting contributes to the decline in wildlife populations as hunters in several cases also poached. They corrupted the system to obtain higher quotas of animals to shoot. They seriously undermined the gene pool of male lions, elephants and other species by only shooting the most magnificent species in each category”. He adds that he believes that photographic safaris contribute far more in the creation of employment, revenue streams and so forth. I accept that is not possible everywhere in Africa, but I think we should be looking far more to schemes which allow animals and people to cohabit.

Bill read a second time and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

Horticultural Sector

Baroness Fookes Excerpts

Thursday 13th October 2022 Grand Committee

Asked by

[Baroness Fookes]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what plans they have to support (1) careers in the horticultural sector, and (2) the role of that sector in protecting the environment.

[Baroness Fookes (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as co-chairman of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Gardening and Horticulture—quite a mouthful. I shall refer to it only as a “group” in future. When I first took on the role, some years ago, I do not think that I appreciated the whole role of horticulture. I knew about the craft of gardening and production of plants; what I had not appreciated was that it embraced cell science, inquiry into new plants and how they might be developed, particularly those able to deal with climate change, arboriculture, dealing with amenity trees—quite distinct from forestry—landscaping and gardening design, and so forth.

This came to the fore in 2019 when an independent group, the Oxford Economics group, brought forward an interesting report which gave a very good indication of the scope of horticulture in 2019. I am not very good with figures, so I shall read them very carefully. In 2019, horticulture contributed £28.8 billion to gross domestic product and jobs numbered 674,000. Much more interesting was the scope for development that the report saw, provided that the Government and the horticultural industry co-operated. It reckoned that, by 2030, GDP could be £41.8 billion and there could be 763,000 jobs. If the watchword of the new Government is “growth, growth and growth”, I give them horticulture, on a plate, as a wonderful way of increasing growth to everybody’s benefit.

There are a number of worries in the horticultural world at the moment. One is that employers feel held back by a shortage of skilled workers. That includes not just the lower skills but many of the higher skills that are well paid. We certainly need to address this. I believe that, for young recruits, a lot of the problem lies with schools and careers services, which seem to me woefully inadequate in their knowledge of what opportunities there are for young people. Indeed, it is worse: sometimes I fear that they give a clear indication that they think gardening is only for those who are idiots and cannot do anything more. I put that bluntly, but I believe it to be the truth.

What they do not seem to understand is that a variety of qualifications lead up to degrees in horticulture. Recently, I went to the land-based Plumpton College in East Sussex, where there are a variety of qualifications at different levels, the last one being a degree, and every single person there, the principal assured me, would have a job at the end of the course. Clearly, there is scope for young people. There is another stream, of course, for those who are career changers, who perhaps need slightly different qualifications, but there is not enough time now to deal with that aspect.

To look at it in more general terms, I think it could be very helpful if the Government recognised certain facts which seem to me perfectly obvious but do not always seem so in government circles. First, all jobs in horticulture are by their nature green jobs—and we are supposed to attach great importance to that. Secondly, we need to ensure that the Office for National Statistics, which at this moment is consulting on the definition and classification of green jobs, includes horticulture in its calculations. Thirdly, the Government need to recognise that in the great 25-year environment plan, with its various goals, horticulture contributes to at least half of them, so it has a very important role to play.

I shall deal now with one or two more specific ways in which horticulture could be helped. Research funding for horticulture has declined in recent years to a scandalously low level, and it seems to be very much the poor relation to agricultural research. However, if it is to play an even greater role in developing skills and, more importantly, in the environment, it is vital. I hope that the Government will give strong consideration to real research funding. We have had an example in recent days; the new Secretary of State for the Environment has trumpeted a very new scheme which is to help horticulture in edible terms—the crop side—through £12.5 billion of research funding, matched to others, to develop high-tech skills and robotics. That helps deal with the difficulty of finding people to work on seasonal jobs, and ones which require a lot of effort, unless they can be dealt with in new, innovative ways.

Unfortunately, there was no mention of horticulture in its ornamental sense beyond a passing reference to the fact that a new government adviser is to be appointed shortly who will cover both sectors. I have to say to my noble friend the Minister: “This is not good enough”. I expect that horticulture in its ornamental role should have equal access to such funds and I hope very much that he will persuade the Secretary of State to amend somewhat this excellent new scheme as far as it goes, because it does not go far enough. I hope that I will not be pushed into the role in the biblical story of the widow whose just complaints the unjust judge did not want to deal with—in the end he gave way because she persisted and persisted and he could not stand it any longer. But if I am pushed into that, I jolly well will.

Let us look now at other aspects to mitigate climate change, where I believe that horticulture has a very important role. We all know about planting trees, but has anyone looked at the number of private residential gardens that could play a role in this on a small scale? I asked a Parliamentary Question about this: 1.5 million acres—I do not do hectares—in the land are there for the taking and that does not include parks, green spaces and great historic gardens. So, all in all, you have an enormous contributor.

Of course there is tremendous biodiversity with garden plants. It is very interesting: the RHS did a survey and found about 400,000 ornamental plants growing in gardens in the UK alone, but only 50,000 food crops worldwide. That gives an indication of the diversity that can be utilised in gardens. We are very worried about the decline in insects, because it has such implications for food production. I believe that gardens and green spaces could have a very good contribution to make. You have only to look at the Chelsea horticultural show and the number of insects that gather around the new gardens. I hope that that will be taken on board.

I will make one final point in the time that remains. I am concerned that new developments will often make short shrift of landscaping and the maintenance of plants. It is usually there in theory, but by the time they get to the end of the development, there is not enough money left. I suggest that there should be a special fund into which the developers have to put their money and then it will not be sent out to them until they start on the actual landscaping and maintenance of plants. We certainly do not want to see the scandal repeated of 100% of trees dying because nobody thought to water them in this hot summer.

I see the clock flashing so, although there are many other points I would wish to make, reluctantly I will have to rest my case here.

Tree Health in England

Baroness Fookes Excerpts

Thursday 9th June 2022 Grand Committee

[Baroness Fookes (Con)]

My Lords, I must first declare my interest as co-chairman of the All-Party Parliamentary Gardening and Horticulture Group—and what a mouthful that is to say. I would like to make a general point first about the three types of trees: there are those that are involved with forestry; those involved with woodland management; and those involved with arboriculture—the amenity parts of trees. I have a suspicion that the Government take the arboricultural side of things less seriously, and I hope I can be told I am wrong by the Minister when he comes to sum up. But they are an extremely important aspect when dealing with the health of trees.

I will not dwell on the issue of ash dieback, as it has been so comprehensively dealt with by the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, and others before me. I want to concentrate now on threats to come. I have been told that there are at least 47 pests and diseases beyond our shores, at present, but which may reach our shores in the next decade. Therefore, it is extremely important that every measure possible is taken to deal with that issue.

I spoke a year or two back to the director of horticulture at Kew’s Royal Botanic Gardens and I thought that their policy on new trees was a lesson for us all. First, they seek to buy from British sources only—British nurseries. If that is impossible, they will buy imported trees but those are then, rather like dogs of old, quarantined for six months in a special area before they are allowed out into the wider community.

That may be a counsel of perfection not possible for all, but it chimes with the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Young, that we need to increase production in tree nurseries by helping and supporting them. I guess there is a limit to the number of sites on which they can produce, but it is important that they have some knowledge of the future orders that might be placed by local authorities or the Government. They need good warning, because it takes up to five years to produce the sorts of trees required for such schemes.

Next, it is important that the public are warned loudly, clearly and frequently about the dangers of bringing in a few little plants that they saw abroad and think would be rather nice to have at home. That is one way in which pathogens, pests and diseases can come in.

Finally, there is the position of the Government in dealing with both research and, more importantly, biosecurity measures for imports. I hope there will be both thoroughness and speed because, if things take too long and are too bureaucratic, living creatures may die on the way to their destination. That must be avoided. It would help if the Government had a list of the most dangerous pests and diseases and concentrated their controls on those they regard as the most difficult to deal with. That would help the nursery trade and others to deal with a very serious situation.

Among the 47 is the emerald ash borer. On this pessimistic note, because it might nibble horribly at trees that we hope are resistant so must not get in at any cost, I rest my case.

Glue Traps (Offences) Bill

Baroness Fookes Excerpts

3rd reading
Tuesday 26th April 2022 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Fookes]

That the Bill do now pass.

[Baroness Fookes (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak only briefly to pay a tribute to Jane Stevenson, my honourable friend in the other place, who had the initiative and drive to get this Bill through all its stages there. I felt privileged to take it through this House. I am also very grateful to the Minister, my noble friend Lord Benyon, for his co-operation, and to Defra officials, who suffered with great good humour my somewhat detailed examination of the Bill when it first arrived. I believe that it will contribute to animal welfare by ending a very cruel practice—or, at any rate, reducing it greatly. However, I am more concerned to see this Bill on the statute book than I am to listen to my own voice—so, on that point, I resume my seat.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, very briefly, I want to congratulate everyone who has been involved in bringing forward this important Bill. The noble Baroness, Lady Fookes, has done us all a service in bringing it to your Lordships’ House—as did Jane Stevenson in the other place. So I welcome the Bill and thank the Government for their support.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Benyon) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lady Fookes for her hard work in guiding this Bill through the House. I congratulate her on progressing the Bill to this stage with such determined enthusiasm. I am grateful to all the noble Lords who contributed at Second Reading, and I am pleased that the Bill has been widely supported across the House. I also thank my honourable friend Jane Stevenson, the Member of Parliament for Wolverhampton North East, for successfully stewarding the Bill through the other place.

We have been clear that high standards of animal welfare are one of the hallmarks of a civilised society. We already have some of the highest animal welfare standards in the world, but this Bill takes forward an important commitment in the Government’s action plan for animal welfare to restrict the use of glue traps and make sure that, when rodents are dispatched, it is done in a humane manner. Throughout the Bill’s passage we have heard about the extreme suffering that can be inflicted by these traps, and it is right to take them out of the hands of amateurs and ensure that they are used only by professional pest controllers when absolutely necessary, where there is a risk to public health or safety and there is no satisfactory alternative.

As well as thanking my noble friend Lady Fookes and my honourable friend Jane Stevenson for their dedicated work in progressing this Bill, I am grateful to the Conservative Animal Welfare Foundation for its support as we progress this important legislation. I also extend my thanks to all the animal welfare organisations, pest control organisations and suppliers that have engaged with my officials throughout the passage of the Bill. I know that my officials are looking forward to continuing their engagement with these organisations as the details of the licensing regime are rolled out. This Bill will add a vital part to our animal welfare legislation, and I look forward to seeing it on the statute book.

[Baroness Fookes (Con)]

My Lords, I think everything has been said. Let us pass it.

Bill passed.

Glue Traps (Offences) Bill

Baroness Fookes Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 25th March 2022 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Fookes]

That the Bill be now read a second time.

[Baroness Fookes (Con)]

My Lords, I pay tribute to my honourable friend in the House of Commons, Jane Stevenson, who ably took the Bill through all its stages in that House. Without her valiant efforts, I would not be standing here today to introduce this Bill—so my warm thanks go to her and the colleagues who supported her. Before I forget, I declare my interests in the register relating to animal welfare.

I am extremely proud to take this Bill through the House, as it will end a great deal of animal suffering. Let me sketch in the background. Glue traps are widely available and cheaply sold online and in various stores and shops. They are small boards covered by a non-drying glue. They are usually set down on the floor or on some horizontal surface. Any animal that gets on to them is then immediately trapped by its feet or paws. This can lead to horrific injuries and suffering. In a panic, the animal may try to tear itself away, maybe tearing its skin or fur. It will certainly suffer from exhaustion and hunger, if it is not found immediately, and could have a slow, lingering death. That is torture in my language, and no animal, whether regarded as a pest or not, should have to suffer such an inhumane way of dying.

It is not only rodents, for which these traps are intended, that are caught. The RSPCA says, horrifyingly, that over the last five years it has found over 200 animals caught, including an unfortunate cat, many birds and a hedgehog, which is endangered. This is a truly horrifying spectacle.

It is made worse because many members of the public, rather than professional pest controllers, apparently panic when they see an animal caught and then commit the ghastly second torture of either throwing it away or drowning it. That is quite horrible to contemplate. There are plenty of other ways of dealing with this. The gold standard, of course, is to rodent-proof buildings. Failing that, there are traps that will catch the creatures alive, so they can be dispatched humanely, or there are what are usually called snap-traps, which immediately cause the death of the animal. That may be rather sudden but that is all to the good. There is no case for the general use of these inhumane traps.

Every animal welfare organisation I know of deplores them, so does the veterinary profession. Yesterday, I had an encouraging conversation with the noble Lord, Lord Trees, who is one of the most eminent veterinary surgeons in the country. He warmly endorses this Bill, and is sorry that he could not be here to offer his commendations in person.

I turn to the terms of the Bill. Clauses 1, 2 and 10 are the key parts, and I will concentrate my attention on them, since I must not try the patience of the House too much with a lengthy speech.

Clause 1 makes it an offence for a person to set a glue trap if the intention is to kill rodents or if they know it could kill a rodent. It would be an offence for a person to allow or permit someone else to set the trap. In addition, if a person passing sees such a trap and does nothing whatever about it, this is also an offence. Some people have suggested that this could be unfair on the innocent passer-by, but there is a useful addition: it has to be without reasonable cause. A passer-by who would not even recognise a glue trap if they saw one would be quite safe, so there is no real problem there.

Another point that has been put to me is why this is confined to rodents and not all vertebrates. My understanding from the officials is that they could come under this Bill anyway. In any case, as was discussed as part of the previous Bill, the Animal Welfare Act 2006 made it an offence to allow an animal to suffer unnecessarily, which includes an animal that has been trapped, as it would then be under a person’s responsibility or control. I am reasonably happy about that.

The only exception to all these persons who commit an offence is a pest controller with a licence to do so. That brings me to the second important clause, Clause 2, which institutes a licensing regime. Given what I have just said, people may ask why on earth we would want a licensing scheme to permit these traps to be set. In fact, the Bill is tightly drawn: the Secretary of State may grant a licence only to preserve public health and safety and, importantly, if there is no other satisfactory solution.

It may perhaps be helpful if I give one or two examples. Rodents may have gnawed through the wiring in a hospital or power station where there is an imminent worry about danger to human life or health or danger from fire. The other possibility is if an aircraft is in flight, or even taking off or landing, and an animal is found. These traps are useful, in that they are simple and can be tucked into places where perhaps another trap could not.

Interestingly, New Zealand, which we have sometimes looked to for examples, instituted an Act that forbade all glue traps, but had to roll that back a little to allow it in particular circumstances—the kind of circumstances that I have described. Happily, though, I gather that there are very few of these that now take place in New Zealand.

The Secretary of State can attach all manner of conditions to the issue of a licence. It could be for a single person or a group of persons, and the licence can be revoked; a great deal of power rests with the Secretary of State to have a solid and clear-cut set of conditions. Regulations made under the Bill—or Act, if it reaches the statute book—will be via statutory instrument with the negative procedure in place.

I have to declare that, as a former chairman of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, I am always very wary of regulations that give Ministers power, now and in the indefinite future, to do whatever they wish by regulation. I would have preferred if it had been possible—it was not possible for me—to ask that draft regulations and a draft licence should be here for us to look at, so that we had a much better idea of precisely what would be covered. For example, I would want to see a regulation stating very clearly that the traps had to be inspected every hour or two hours, so that they were not left for a long time, which is one of the horrors of the regime as it currently stands. However, I am in the hands of my noble friend the Minister as to what he may be able to tell us in response. The Bill has government support, so I live in hope.

The final clause, Clause 10, is also of some importance. It applies only really to England because the devolved Administrations have the power to work on this issue themselves. My understanding is that the devolved Administrations are very likely to have Bills very similar to this one, or may already have them, and I hope that is the case.

The other part of Clause 10 relates to the time when the Bill, if it became law, would be implemented. The Secretary of State has the power to decide the day on which it should be implemented, and it could be that different parts of the Bill were implemented on different days. My understanding, from discussions with officials and from the Explanatory Memorandum that the Government produced, is that they have in mind about two years. I have to say that that is a disappointment to me. I understand that those who produce these traps have to change their ways of doing business and that a licensing system needs to be set up, but I still think that the two years that has been suggested is far too long; I would like to see a much shorter time span. That said, I believe the Bill is three-quarters of the way to where I want it to be, and I very much hope that it will receive a fair wind through this House.

I must add by way of warning that, if anyone seeks to amend the Bill, it will have to return to the House of Commons and the Bill will then be lost. I issue that as a final warning. I hope very much that it will be sufficiently good to win the acceptance of this House and will soon pass on to the statute book. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Fookes (Con)]

My Lords, in turn, I thank all those who took part in this debate. I also thank the Minister. I was much encouraged by most of his remarks. The old schoolteacher in me says, “Seven out of 10”.

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I will take that.

[Baroness Fookes (Con)]

One query about bodies corporate was not answered by the Minister. My understanding is that this is simply to ensure that corporations cannot get away with it because they are corporations and so can give the blame to somebody else, which is why there is a reference to particular senior people in a corporation who would have to take the blame if anything happened.

The noble Baroness made another point, which I did not quite get, but which related to the paragraphs about inspectors on premises. I know these look rather detailed, but the idea is to make sure that nobody has any wiggle room. They perhaps rather overegg the pudding, but better that than to underegg, in the circumstances.

I very much hope that the Bill goes through unamended, because of the danger that it would otherwise be lost altogether. I will be closely following the speed with which the department acts in dealing with these matters and the care that it takes in drawing up the conditions attached to licences. I forewarn my noble friend the Minister that I will be after him if progress does not seem satisfactory.

Bill read a second time and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

Hunting Trophies

Baroness Fookes Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

My Lords, there is a Bill coming forward relating to issues of animals abroad. That will be published in the near future. The noble Baroness would not expect me to second-guess parliamentary procedures, but it will be introduced soon.

[Baroness Fookes (Con)]

My Lords, given that there are suspicions arising that certain other animal welfare aspects are to be dropped from the Bill to which my noble friend refers, will he forgive me if I say that I entertain considerable suspicions as to whether the Government are back-tracking?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

My noble friend’s question suggests that she has the advantage on me and a greater understanding of the pre-legislative discussions that are going ahead. As far as I am concerned, what was in the manifesto will be brought forward in a Bill in the near future.

Animal Welfare (Sentience) Bill [HL]

Baroness Fookes Excerpts

Report stage & Lords Hansard - part one
Monday 6th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I echo my noble friend Lord Robathan’s remarks. I think this a perfectly terrible Bill, and I would like to speak to Amendment 1. The noble Lord, Lord Trees, made the point that this Bill was Article 13 of the EU with bells on. He knows a lot more about this sort of legislation than I do. I hope that the Minister, when he comes to speak to this amendment, will explain why this Bill has to have bells on. Why could it not be just Article 13 of the withdrawal agreement? Why did we have to add things on to it? Many of us are disturbed at the propensity of our government machine—Whitehall departments—to always add things on to Bills and make them even more elaborate than they were originally intended to be.

The noble Lord, Lord Trees, also made the point that his amendment was about process. Process, as I see it, and certainly in the days when I was in government, was all to do with legislation. When a department produced legislation, if that legislation affected other departments, it was circulated through those departments for their comments on it before it was ever submitted to Parliament. I do not quite understand what this new committee is going to do in looking at legislation before it is actually submitted to Parliament, compared with what happened before. Presumably, if the question of animal welfare came up, it went to the Department of Agriculture and it went to the Animal Welfare Committee who looked at it and said whether it was within its remit and whether it approved of it. So what is this committee doing that the Animal Welfare Committee did not do before? Perhaps my noble friend could elucidate that when he comes to speak.

Generally, what we are doing is expanding the whole mass of quangos and we have to think about the Climate Change Committee. It always advertises itself as a committee that advises the Government but seems to have a complete mind of its own when it comes to climate change. It seems to be obsessed with CO₂ emissions. It never seems to champion or recognise what has actually been done in this country to reduce CO₂ emissions, and it does not seem to take any account of the collateral damage. I hope this committee is not going to be another one like that.

[Baroness Fookes (Con)]

My Lords, I profoundly disagree with the two previous speakers, and I have no wish to be associated with the views that they expressed.

To look at one particular detail, my understanding of the committee is that it will produce reports which will then come to Parliament, where we can all see them. That publicity seems to me an excellent way of dealing with things. Of course, the committee would not be instigating legislation; it would be an advisory body. It will be up to the government departments concerned whether they choose to accept its advice, but at least we will know what this committee is thinking.

Animal Welfare (Sentience) Bill [HL]

Baroness Fookes Excerpts

Report stage & Lords Hansard - part two
Monday 6th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak in support of Amendment 27, to which I have put my name. I have the great privilege of following the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, in doing so. This amendment goes to the heart of what I see, perhaps eccentrically, as the problem with the Bill. The Bill seems to be about animals and their welfare, and it seems to be based on science, but really it is a Bill about humans and our moral standing. It is not about our moral obligations—all animal welfare legislation for the last 200 years either articulates or creates moral and legal obligations on us; that is what law does—but rather it is about our moral standing. It is the ambition of the people who are promoting the concept of animal sentience that it should be a common moral measure, putting humans and animals on the same moral plane, differenced only by the degree of sentience that they evince.

I find this a really false anthropology. So it is absolutely right that the Bill, which actually makes no reference to humans, should say something about them, if only to try to achieve a better balance in the moral architecture that the Bill seeks to create. Amendment 27 does that. It says that there are some things about human beings that should not be trampled on by this Bill, by the principle behind it, or by the animal sentience committee it creates. Those are quite basic things: they are to do with religion and religious practice, culture and your local region or locality—the place where you belong. All Amendment 27 does is ask that those things should be carved out and specially protected—not in an innovative way, because in fact they are already protected in the European Union treaty, in the language that we adopted before. It is simply about incorporating that language back, not in a copy-and-paste way but because we genuinely believe that those things about human life are important and should be protected. That is why I support Amendment 27.

While I am on my feet, I am going to make a comment on Amendment 48, in the same group. It is a slightly more procedural comment—it is really a question to my noble friend. We have been told since Committee, through the issuance of the terms of reference of the new committee—which are not statutory as I understand it, but of course I am always happy to be corrected—that it is to be set inside and corralled by, so to speak, a new Defra centre of excellence on animal welfare. Other committees that already exist will also be brought within that nest, but the other birds in this nest are not statutory committees—they are creatures or creations of Defra, whereas this new committee is a statutory committee. I simply do not understand—this may be because I am relatively new—how it is that, through some non-statutory terms of reference, a committee that we are today being asked to give statutory independence to, can be reliably told that it will be part of this centre. What if it decided not to be? It is going to have an independent board; what if the board decided that the centre trammelled it or interfered with its work? My question to my noble friend is this: if this committee is going to be on the basis he says, corralled inside the new centre for excellence, should that not be in the Bill?

[Baroness Fookes (Con)]

My Lords, I understand the worries of the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, about including or not including matters that relate to medical science and the slaughter of animals by ritual, religious methods. But unless I am much mistaken—the Minister will correct me if I am wrong—the Act that deals with the slaughter of animals specifically exempts ritual slaughter from what would otherwise be illegal. By the same token, we have legislation that deals with medical experiments which already tightly controls what may or may not be done. I cannot see, therefore, that the amendment being advocated can have any real substance to it, given those restrictions, and also bearing in mind that the committee that is being set up, although it is being set up by statute, does not have legal powers of any kind whatever. It will be entirely up to the relevant Ministers whether or not they accept any recommendations from that committee. In order to change the rules about medical science or the slaughter of animals, I believe there would have to be primary legislation. I hope my noble friend can confirm this.

[Viscount Trenchard (Con)]

My Lords, I intervene briefly to support Amendment 2 in the names of my noble friends Lord Mancroft and Lord Marland. I also wish my noble friend a speedy recovery from Covid. As my noble friend Lord Marland, who spoke so convincingly to the amendment, said, the animal sentience committee will be both judge and jury. My worry is that it will also be legislator, since it seems to me almost certain that, in the way the Bill is currently drafted, it is likely to stray into the area of scrutinising policy as well as process.

I remain worried that the committee will also overlap with the work of the Animal Welfare Committee, as the Countryside Alliance and other institutions that actually understand nature and animal behaviour have pointed out. This committee is likely to be comprised of people who may have a huge understanding of matters of science and parts of the countryside but lack the experience to really appreciate the relationship between the countryside and the animal kingdom.

What about this animal welfare centre of expertise? I understand it is supposed to settle points of dispute with other committees. Which other committees is the new committee likely to be in dispute with? Obviously, it will be the Animal Welfare Committee. I cannot, for the life of me, understand why we would wish to create an animal sentience committee which is obviously going to cover points that are already covered by the Animal Welfare Committee. I thought that, under this Government, we were likely to see some rationalisation and reduction of the number of committees and quangos being established. I regret very much that it looks as though we are likely to see the reverse.

I would also like to comment on Amendment 27, in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, spoken to very well by the noble Baroness, Lady Deech. My noble friend Lady Fookes has just pointed out, quite correctly, that there are already exemptions for medical science in some legislation, but I think those exemptions are very much narrower than the exemptions that would be achieved by the amendment in the name of the noble Earl. The amendment is quite welcome, and I strongly support it, particularly as, having spent many years in Japan, I came to be very partial to Japanese cuisine. I fear that most methods used, including in this country by Japanese restaurants, to kill fish might fall foul of the opinions of the animal sentience committee. I think it could easily lead to a lot of unwelcome interference.

I also very much welcome the speech by my noble friend Lord Moylan, who explained so well that the sentience of animals is different from that of us. It is relative, and nobody would argue that the sentience of a dog is the same as that of a lobster.

I also strongly support Amendment 48, because to set up a statutory committee of this kind without including a schedule clearly setting out the committee’s role and functions is bound to lead to trouble.

Animal Welfare (Sentience) Bill [HL]

Baroness Fookes Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 20th July 2021 Grand Committee

Thus I support Amendment 57 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Moylan. It would limit the extension to cephalopods—they are already protected in the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act so there would be consistency there—and decapod crustaceans; there is mounting evidence that the latter are sentient beings. They are protected in the animal welfare legislation of many other countries and are a subject on which the LSE report is about to pronounce. This amendment would provide a hard stop at that point. It implies that, should there be further pressure to extend the range of animals, this can be considered but through primary legislation duly debated, considered and scrutinised in Parliament.

[Baroness Fookes (Con)]

My Lords, I apologise to the Committee for not being here earlier in the afternoon when noble Lords debated amendments to which I added my name. Unfortunately, there was an additional meeting of the Constitution Committee, of which I am a member, meeting on a different day and at a different time. However, I am here now. I will speak to Amendment 51 in particular; in that connection, I have been asked by my noble friend Lord Randall of Uxbridge and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, to say that they fully support the remarks I intend to make about it.

I make no apology for wishing to see cephalopods and decapods included in the realms of sentience and not left until some future date. I am aware that the Minister is awaiting the LSE report to which the noble Lord, Lord Trees, referred. I would be interested to know from the Minister when we might expect to see that report and whether it is likely to be in time to make a decision about including these creatures in the Bill before it reaches its final stages. For my part, I believe that there is already sufficient hard evidence to make it perfectly acceptable to include them here and now.

It is interesting that, way back in 2005, the European Food Safety Authority’s Scientific Panel on Animal Health and Welfare considered these animals sufficiently sentient to be included. Since then, a lot of work has been done by Professor Robert Elwood of Queen’s University; I believe that he has provided good scientific evidence. I am happy to accept scientific evidence. I think mention was made earlier of one experiment where hermit crabs, which like to retreat to quiet places, were given an electric shock if they entered one refuge but not if they entered another. It soon became evident that they knew which one to choose and that they remembered it. Shortness of time forbids me from giving any further examples, but I firmly believe that there are good examples that give hard evidence. We know, too, that a number of other countries are ahead of us on this issue. They include, for example, New Zealand, some of the Australian states, Austria and even, surprisingly, Italy.

The final point I want to make is that I commend to the Minister the precautionary principle. Great publicity was given to it in the Environment Bill as one of five principles. It was given a good boost. I suggest that the precautionary principle is one to adopt here and now. As I understand it, it means that, if there is some evidence, you do not have to wait until something is proved to the hilt before you take action. On that basis, I have no hope that the Minister will accept Amendment 51 as it stands, but I hope for better things before the Bill reaches the statute book.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Lexden) (Con)]

The noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, whose name is next on the list, has withdrawn.

Animal Welfare (Sentience) Bill [HL]

Baroness Fookes Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 6th July 2021 Grand Committee

[Lord Randall of Uxbridge (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I shall be brief. By and large, the Government have got this reasonably okay. I can understand the sentiments of some of my noble friends and those on the other side. However, I have to say that Amendment 11 in the name of my noble friend Lord Forsyth of Drumlean has a great deal of merit. I was a bit sorry to hear him, in his typically self-deprecating way, describing himself as an extinct volcano. He is possibly a dormant volcano, and something we should always watch—you never know when the smoke may rise—but at the moment he is still there. I regard myself more as a drumlin, as distinct from the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean —that is, a small, egg-shaped glacial deposit. That is my place in life. We need to know more about the set-up of the committee and so forth. As I said, Amendment 11, which puts this so that it is in front of both Houses of Parliament, is a good solution.

[Baroness Fookes (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Forsyth may be slightly surprised, given my interest in animal welfare, to find out that I share his criticisms of the Bill’s format. Indeed, I thought there was a Cabinet committee charged with ensuring that Bills came forth fully formed; I am therefore surprised that this one got through the gate of that Cabinet committee. It verges on being a skeleton Bill—or, if not a skeleton, it is seriously underweight, which has caused a lot of the difficulties and misgivings on all sides of the Committee.

I am concerned, too, not just that the way the first clause is set out gives unlimited power to the present Secretary of State over the membership of the committee and the terms on which they will serve, but that if that stands in the Bill, it will stand for ever. We cannot tell how that might be interpreted by future Secretaries of State, which I find very uncomfortable.

This is one reason why I have supported the two amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb. First, her proposed new subsection (2) tries to set out that the function of the committee should be set out in the Bill. Secondly, she has proposed a schedule to point out who the members of the committee might be, how long they might serve and the committee’s general powers. I am quite sure that other Members of this Committee will find fault with whatever I have put down, but it is at least a worthwhile attempt to sort out what the Government really intend the committee to do and how it is to be constituted. I am anxious to see that people of varied expertise are chosen. I have no truck with what I call animal extremists and no wish to see them on a committee of this type. I want to see a well-established committee of experts who can offer sensible advice to the Secretaries of State of the day—because this will cover more than Defra, or I imagine it should if it is to relate to animals in general.

I very much hope that we can have considerably more thinking on the Bill on the Government’s part. I would prefer to see regulations brought in giving the details of the committee and how it will work, which could at least then be considered by Parliament, even if it cannot amend them. I ask the Government to look more closely at what they are asking us to accept.

[Lord Sheikh (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I should like to comment on Amendments 11 and 14. I agree in principle with what has been stated about these two amendments, which are concerned with clarifying the operational capabilities of the animal sentience committee.

I love animals and care deeply about their well-being. I have pets and I was brought up in home where we had chickens, ducks, rabbits, dogs and cats. I formed a bond with these animals and know that they had emotions and felt pain. In my language we say, “An animal is not able to speak but it does have feelings”. Of course, this makes it even more important for us to care for them, which is the reason I support the Bill. However, certain improvements need to be made to address this fact. We must ensure that the animal sentience committee is able to undertake its work as adequately as possible to fulfil its range of responsibilities.

I am a businessman and have been the chairman and chief executive of a successful public company. In business, if a company wants to undertake a project, it must thoroughly work out the details. Thereafter, adequate resources must be provided, including funding, the provision of appropriate staff and the sourcing of suitable accommodation.

Similarly, we must set out quite clearly what we are trying to achieve, and we must set out our objectives throughout. If the intention is to establish and maintain an effective committee, the terms of reference among other things need to be set out in clear terms. Amendments 11 and 14 address these requirements by setting out provisions, making adequate resources available for staffing composition as well as defining the relationship and appropriate consultation between the Secretary of State and the committee. I support all that is set out in the amendments but would like them to be streamlined and consolidated in one properly worded clause.