The Ukraine Effect (European Affairs Committee Report)

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Thursday 21st November 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, for his speech and for the way the Opposition are approaching this important issue. It is vital that we maintain the bipartisan approach towards Ukraine, and we continue to appreciate his words and sentiments and the way in which the noble Lord puts his points across.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Ricketts, and all noble Lords on the European Affairs Committee for the valuable insights in the report. Normally I complain about the length of time it takes for us to get to examine these reports, but on this occasion I do not think it has been a problem. It may even have been a benefit that some months have passed.

I particularly thank the noble Lord, Lord Levene, for his valedictory speech and for his years of service. As the noble Baroness, Lady Helic, said, he has done so much and brought a lot of experience to bear, and I shall remember his golden rules.

Earlier this week we passed a grim milestone, as the Foreign Secretary said in the other place. Not only is it 1,000 days since Putin’s full-scale invasion stunned the world and brought turmoil, violence and bloodshed to millions, including the Russian people, but 1,000 days of Ukrainian bravery has inspired the world to stand with Ukraine.

Russia’s illegal and unprovoked invasion of Ukraine poses a direct threat to European and Euro-Atlantic security. It struck at the heart of the international rules-based system on which our shared global security and prosperity depend, and that is why supporting Ukraine to defend itself against Russian aggression is this Government’s foreign and defence priority.

The Foreign Secretary has made it his personal mission to do all we can to constrain the Kremlin. Earlier this week he announced more sanctions in response to Iran’s transfer of ballistic missiles to Russia, including on Iran Air, and measures against the monsters who forcibly deported Ukrainian children for attempted indoctrination by the Kremlin.

All this builds on the sanctions that we have ramped up, sanctioning almost 40 vessels in Putin’s shadow fleet of oil tankers, leaving many of them idling or at anchor since sanctions were imposed; sanctioning cybercriminals from the aptly named Evil Corp; sanctioning Russian troops who used chemical weapons on the battlefield and mercenaries responsible for destabilising Africa; and sanctioning firms that supply Russia’s military-industrial complex, including Chinese firms, sending critical components for weapons including drones. Indeed, the cost of components has risen by 30% for the Russian defence sector, and Russia’s military exports have fallen to levels not seen since the Soviet Union’s collapse.

The UK’s military, economic, political and diplomatic support for Ukraine remains ironclad as we have made clear to the world just what is at stake. The vivid description by the noble Lord, Lord Banner, of the cost of allowing Ukraine to fall is vital. We work alongside our European partners to rally international support. The noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, encouraged the deepening of our defence and security co-operation, and she is right to do that.

Since taking office, the Foreign Secretary has visited Ukraine with US Secretary of State Tony Blinken, the first such joint visit to any country for more than a decade. He discussed Ukraine with the EU Foreign Affairs Council in October, the first appearance by a Foreign Secretary at a regular council meeting since our exit from the EU, and in recent days he chaired a meeting of the United Nations Security Council on Ukraine before joining a meeting of close European allies to discuss how to bolster our support for Ukraine.

In our very first week in office, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister confirmed that we would provide £3 billion a year in military aid this year, next year and every year that it is needed. That includes my right honourable friend the Defence Secretary’s announcement earlier this week of more funding for Ukraine’s navy and for drones, and the extension of Operation Interflex, which has trained more than 50,000 Ukrainian troops to date.

We have increased non-military support for Ukraine this financial year. We will give at least £250 million in bilateral assistance for work such as protecting the Ukrainian power grid, which this weekend suffered one of Russia’s biggest aerial assaults since August, involving 120 missiles and 90 drones, causing an emergency blackout in several regions across the country just as the Ukrainian people head into winter, when temperatures can drop to minus 20 degrees.

Crucially, with the realism so eloquently expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, our bilateral support, both military and non-military, will be higher this financial year than in any previous financial year since the war began. As many noble Lords are urging, we are finding creative ways to strengthen the Ukrainian economy. We have brought the UK-Ukraine digital trade deal into force, so that Ukraine benefits from cheaper and quicker trade. UK Export Finance has provided more than £500 million in loan guarantees, including for Ukraine’s own defence industry.

British International Investment is working with the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development to support Ukrainian trade. By the end of this year, we will have deployed a further $484 million in World Bank loan guarantees. Colleagues have now begun debating a Bill confirming a new £2.6 billion loan to Ukraine as part of a G7 package of $50 billion to sustain Ukraine’s fight, all paid for by the profits from frozen Russian assets primarily held in the EU.

It is profoundly in our interests and those of the UK’s European partners to make sure that Ukraine is able to restore its sovereignty and territorial integrity and the integrity of international law, including the UN charter. Just as Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine has made NATO stronger, it has brought about intensified foreign policy co-operation between the UK and the EU.

We are working together closely on a wide range of issues, from sanctions against Russia and making sure Ukraine gets the resources it needs to sustain its military campaign and grow its economy, to training Ukrainian soldiers, recovery and reconstruction. This Government are committed to continuing and strengthening this co-operation.

I was asked to comment on Storm Shadow, but I do not think it would be wise to go any further than the Defence Secretary did this morning. I do not have anything in addition to say—just that, as the Prime Minister has said, it is important that we double down and ensure that Ukraine gets the support it needs.

The noble Baroness, Lady Nicholson, rightly praised the support of many of Ukraine’s neighbours and welcomed the work across Europe to help Ukraine. We welcome the progress that Ukraine is making. She was talking about accession to the EU. We welcome the progress that has been made on its path to Euro-Atlantic integration, and we welcome the EU’s continued commitment to Ukraine.

The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, and the noble Baroness, Lady Helic, asked about talks on UK participation in Permanent Structured Cooperation, PESCO. The UK will continue to progress our application to join the PESCO military mobility project. We will explore the opportunity to engage with other projects that align with UK interests on a project-by-project basis, and we continue to review the progress of other PESCO projects.

I note the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Ricketts, and how the UK can be a force in cybersecurity, AI and soft power. I think that point might actually have been made by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup—if it was, he will have to forgive me. His point was that projects are very good but that strategic leadership and integration are far better. His encouragement of fresh thinking and creativity on this is very welcome.

Noble Lords including the noble Baroness, Lady Helic, and the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, asked about EU-UK sanctions co-operation, and this is important. We continue to prioritise co-ordination with international partners including the EU to enhance the impact of our collective sanctions and share information more seamlessly. We have frequent engagement with EU institutions and member states at all levels. We hold quarterly consultations with the EU to enable strategic co-ordination and co-operation on sanctions.

We will continue to work closely with the EU to jointly engage with countries where we are seeing spikes in trade of sanctioned goods with Russia, as many noble Lords mentioned. This has included the central Asia region and the UAE. In early September the UK sanctions director, the EU sanctions envoy and the US sanctions co-ordinator jointly visited Malaysia to discuss growing trade and maritime circumvention risks in the south-east Asia region. Together we are developing our collective offer of capacity building and technical assistance to third countries to support improved sanctions compliance and enforcement, and to offer assistance to both government and the private sector.

The noble Lords, Lord Alderdice and Lord Ricketts, and the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, asked about the impact of sanctions on Russia. Sanctions have deprived Russia of over $400 billion since February 2022. By one estimate, that is equivalent to four more years of funding for Putin’s invasion of Ukraine. The UK has sanctioned over 2,100 individuals and entities under the Russia sanctions regime, over 1,900 of which have been sanctioned since Putin’s full-scale invasion. Over £22 billion of Russian assets have been frozen because of UK financial sanctions.

Putin thought that he could take Kyiv in three days; two and a half years on, his military is turning to North Korea and Iran for supplies. Sanctions are putting grit in the system; they are increasing costs and delays and reducing equipment quality. Russia has managed only to stabilise supplies, not increase them, and at a cost. Russia has been forced to pay over 135% more for microelectronics; over 320% more for advanced machine tools, procured by China and Turkey; and over 210% more to import critical US-origin items through third countries.

By the end of the first two years of the war, Russia had lost about 3,000 tanks and 5,000 other armoured vehicles. The difficulty in getting components is hampering Russia’s ability to build new tanks and infantry vehicles, as well as to refurbish old ones. A “new” Russian T-90M tank captured by Ukraine last year was found to have a gun made in 1992. Since the imposition of the oil price cap, data from the Russian Ministry of Finance showed a 30% reduction in tax revenues from oil in 2023, compared to the year before.

Thanks to the efforts of the UK and our allies, Putin faces extreme costs from the conflict. According to Putin himself, sanctions are causing a colossal number of difficulties. Of course, sanctions are only one lever and when people say, “Are sanctions working?”, that is probably the wrong way to look at this. They are one tool that we can use.

I was asked about Chelsea Football Club. I am afraid I am no further forward than when I was last asked about this. The funds remain frozen while a new foundation is established. We continue to hold talks with Mr Abramovich. All I can do, I suppose, is to promise to redouble our efforts and try to reach a solution as quickly as possible.

The noble Lords, Lord Callanan and Lord Risby, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Blackstone and Lady Suttie, among others, asked about sanctions enforcement. The idea of sanctions is that they work well as a deterrent, and we are working to make sure that businesses know how to comply with our sanctions regime. However, we accept that they have given rise to some challenges, which is why the Minister for Europe, who has responsibility for sanctions, is reviewing how they work, as you would expect of a new Government.

The noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, and others asked about the overseas territories. I can confirm that these issues were raised at this week’s JMC with the OTs. We are committed to working with them to investigate and act on any evidence of breaches. For noble Lords’ information, a communique will be issued at the end of the conference, and I expect sanctions to feature in it.

The noble Lord, Lord Ricketts, asked about the shadow fleet. The shadow fleet undermines our sanctions and poses serious maritime security and environmental risks. We are working closely with partners to tackle the risks posed by these vessels. Since July, the Government have sanctioned 39 vessels under the Russia regime that were transporting oil originating in Russia to a third country, leaving many of them idling or at anchor since the sanctions were imposed. The Government have also sanctioned nine LNG carriers and six vessels involved in the transporting of military goods, and another four oil tankers and two military goods transport vessels were sanctioned under the previous Administration. In July, the UK hosted the European Political Community at Blenheim Palace, as noble Lords will know, and launched a call to action to tackle Russia’s shadow fleet. It was signed by 40-plus countries and has since been endorsed by the US and Canada.

The noble Baronesses, Lady Blackstone and Lady Suttie, and the noble Lord, Lord Tugendhat, asked about the recovery and reconstruction of Ukraine. This is an important issue, and I can assure noble Lords that we are working closely with a range of international partners—including the EU and EU member states such as Germany, France, Italy, Poland, Sweden, Denmark and the Netherlands—to deliver reforms and economic support for Ukraine’s recovery and reconstruction through the Ukraine donor platform and bilaterally.

The noble Lord, Lord Risby, invited me to explore the French insurance scheme, and I am happy to do that. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chichester reminded us, too, of the value of faith-based organisations. It was good to hear about the work the Church is doing in Ukraine.

Like the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, I, too, met the delegation from Lviv recently, and we discussed the psychological, societal and physical reconstruction that is needed. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, spoke movingly about these issues in her speech. We were asked about the airport. The UK specialists are in close contact with Ukraine about the airport, and we are providing technical assistance to get it open safely.

On the issue of reconstruction, the noble Lord, Lord Banner, was inspiring in his vision. It is vital that we keep the hope that he expressed. I think I remember that last time, he read us a note from his niece. I take this opportunity to wish her and the rest of his family well in Ukraine.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, for noting that, on the issue of UK-EU security co-operation, on 14 October the Foreign Secretary attended the EU Foreign Affairs Council. I hope the noble Lord will welcome the fact that we agreed to work towards a security partnership and have committed to six-monthly foreign policy dialogues, starting in early 2025. We are engaging with the External Action Service to explore options for a new security partnership, focused on foreign policy and defence co-operation. In particular, we want to work closely to address wider global challenges, including economic headwinds, geopolitical competition, irregular migration, climate change and energy prices, which pose fundamental challenges to the shared values of the UK and EU.

I listened carefully to the noble Lord, Lord Godson, and I would just say that no one wants to spend years reopening old divides. This is not about renegotiating or relitigating Brexit; it is about looking forward and realising the potential of the UK-EU relationship as it stands today. He spoke about his frustrations at the EU’s treatment of third countries. We get it, but clearly, the EU is free to make its own choices. We are no longer members, so of course, our influence is not what it was; but the relationship is improving now, and we see this as being very much in the UK’s interests.

I end by echoing the Foreign Secretary in recent days and weeks. He said:

“UK security is indivisible from European security. This government is determined to reset our relationships and deepen ties with our European partners in order to make us all safer”.


We are working with our international partners, including our European colleagues, because we are always stronger when we work with others, for the freedom of all states the world over to choose their own future. That includes brave Ukrainians, who need not just words but actions. This Government have not wavered, ramping up the pressure on Russia, stepping up support to Ukraine and rallying the international community. We can all be proud of the unity we have shown as this country proves that Britain will remain Ukraine’s staunchest friend throughout this war and in the peace that follows.

COP 29: United Kingdom Delegation

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Thursday 21st November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Robathan]

To ask His Majesty’s Government how many people were in the United Kingdom delegation to COP 29 in Baku, what work they did, and what was the total cost of attendance including air fares.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, the UK’s COP 29 delegation is smaller than that for COP 28, but our delegation is planned to ensure a productive summit that will progress UK strategic outcomes. The carbon footprint of this travel is outstripped by the benefits of delivering this agenda. As well as Ministers, diplomats, thematic experts and negotiators, overall UK attendance at COP includes businesses, arm’s-length bodies, devolved Administrations, those from Crown dependencies and overseas territories, parliamentarians and external event speakers from businesses and civil society. Because COP 29 is still ongoing, it is not possible to provide a final number of participants or a cost of attendance.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

I thank the Minister for her Answer, although it did not really increase the sum total of human knowledge. My understanding is that the delegation was 470 strong, which is over four times the size of the French delegation and larger than the American delegation—the size of a small army battalion, actually. Can the Minister now confirm whether that is the number? What were they doing? What did they achieve? How much did it cost? She says that she cannot tell us, but she can give us a guess. And what was the carbon footprint?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The noble Lord, with respect, might wish to retable this in a couple of weeks when COP has actually concluded. At the moment, although we know how many people we have accredited, we do not know how many of those attended, how many attended in person or for how long they attended. We will obviously be able to provide full information, which I am sure he will enjoy reading, once COP concludes, but we are not in a position to do that today.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that the noble Lord, Lord Robathan, has scored an own goal with his Question? Although the Labour Government sent fewer to COP 29 than the Tory Government sent to COP 28—

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

No, it was not in Glasgow; it was in Dubai. That is two own goals—that is better than England. The fact that our delegation was led by the Prime Minister, unlike under the previous Government, shows the real importance that we give to climate change.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I agree with my noble friend. We need to be serious about this, because the threat of climate change is real and it is driving a loss of resource and of water, it is driving competition for land, it is causing the displacement of people and it is incredibly expensive to deal with. There is a massive opportunity for growth based on climate investment for the UK, which is an opportunity that, as my noble friend said, I am proud is being led by the Prime Minister. I reflect today, on the day that we have learned of the sad death of our friend Lord Prescott, on the work that he did, before many people caught up with him, to lead on this issue. I am proud of what he did, and I am glad that we are able to follow and honour his legacy.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, if the Minister cannot estimate the cost of the trip to Baku, can she perhaps give us an estimate of the CO₂ emissions that emerged from all the aircraft flights to Baku and back again?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, these matters are hugely significant for the future of the world. Yes, it would be wonderful if we could reach agreement on really difficult issues—where the UK, I am proud to say, plays a leading role—by circulating an email or on WhatsApp. Sadly, we cannot do that; we need to meet face to face and we need to hammer these things out. The cost of this and the CO₂ that may be included in gathering together to make these decisions and to provide that leadership pales into insignificance compared with the benefits to the climate of being able to reach agreements together. I just encourage noble Lords to perhaps raise their sights ever so slightly to look to the longer term.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, the vital issue of loss and damage for developing states, which are at the front line of the climate emergency, was not mentioned at all in the Prime Minister’s speech in Baku. I met a delegation of MPs from Barbados on Tuesday and they, alongside the SIDS community, told me—quite alarmingly—that they see little support from the UK for climate mitigation efforts. First, can the Minister assure me that UK support for loss and damage is ring-fenced against the development cuts that were announced in the Budget? Secondly, does she agree with me that—as the Barbadians told me—when the UK does not offer support, China does? It offers support with conditional lending. Surely, within the Commonwealth, the UK should be doing more and not creating gaps that China fills.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

What the noble Lord highlights is the importance to many of our global partners of action on the climate, whether that is prevention of climate change through the work that we do, not just here in the UK but internationally, on reducing carbon, or whether it is on loss and damage mitigation or resilience against extreme weather events. Many of the countries that the noble Lord refers to are very low emitters but are on the front line of this. That is why I am proud of the leadership that this country takes on this issue.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, in welcoming the presence of the Prime Minister in Baku, does the Minister recall that, in 2023, 120,000 Armenians were driven out of Nagorno-Karabakh in ethnic cleansing, when Azerbaijan cut off electricity, medicine and food? During this conference, even on its margins, did the Prime Minister have the opportunity to raise with President Aliyev the continuing failure to create a peace agreement between Azerbaijan and Armenia and provide for the return of prisoners?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The UK has been consistent in seeking a peaceful resolution. We take every opportunity that we can to move that forward.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, earlier this morning, I chaired a meeting of indigenous peoples from Colombia, Peru and Indonesia. They welcomed the fact that the UK Prime Minister was in Baku, because there is an urgent need to discuss climate change mitigation and how to deal with corporates—many of them from the UK and other large countries—that undertake enormous amounts of wood felling to pursue their particular business, at the expense of indigenous people. Therefore, in the interests of climate change mitigation internationally, would my noble friend meet me and those groups and campaigners who are directly involved on this issue in the UK?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We are not going to get any improvement in stemming the loss of biodiversity or deforestation without working with indigenous communities. I was very pleased to meet Domingo Peas, the head of Amazon Sacred Headwaters Alliance, on a recent visit to Ecuador, looking at just this topic. I would be very happy to meet representatives alongside my noble friend.

[The Earl of Courtown (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister, in her initial Answer to my noble friend, talked about outcomes from COP 29 in Baku. Can she outline how these outcomes align with our broader environmental and economic goals?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Our economic goal is around achieving growth for the UK, and our environmental ambition is to reduce the amount of climate change. We are aiming, still, for 1.5 degrees. How close the precise negotiations at this COP will get to delivering on those ambitions remains to be seen because, as I have already said, COP is still ongoing and there is another round of ministerial talks to take place. Really, the thorny issues have yet to be considered. Perhaps we can return to this topic when COP is completed, when we might have a better chance of assessing how successful it has been.

[The Lord Bishop of Manchester]

My Lords, last year I took a group of leaders from different faiths in Greater Manchester, along with civic leaders, to meet Pope Francis in Rome to discuss his work on climate change, which makes me think: will the Government commit to working with faith leaders, in this country and overseas, as we seek to mitigate the climate emergency?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I welcome contributions from any leaders who have influence anywhere. It is important that this task is not just left to the politicians and that community leaders and faith leaders from across the world step up and use whatever power they have to help.

[Baroness Hayman (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my interests as set out in the register. One of the most memorable experiences of my first few months in government in 1997 was repeating the Statement on the Kyoto conference in this House that the Deputy Prime Minister had given elsewhere. He was an extraordinarily committed environmentalist before many other people, as the noble Baroness said, and he will be missed on that account and on many others. After Kyoto, we had Paris and the 1.5 degree target, to which the noble Baroness has referred. That is in danger of being breached as we speak. Does she agree that the real issue about COP and that process is how we turn an international agreement into delivery locally?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Absolutely I would, and if there was anyone who took a pragmatic lens to these issues, it would be our friend John Prescott. Perhaps we could think to ourselves “What would John say?” when we reach these agreements. I hope that we do reach some meaningful agreements but, as the noble Baroness implies and as he would no doubt have said, “It’s about getting it done, love, isn’t it?”.

Jailing of Hong Kong Pro-democracy Activists

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Wednesday 20th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My Lords, the jailing of 45 pro- democracy campaigners in Hong Kong is a serious blow to the freedoms of the people of Hong Kong. The fact that this happened only 24 hours after the Prime Minister cosied up to President Xi is particularly concerning. I welcome that the Prime Minister publicly raised the issue of Jimmy Lai, but did he also raise all these other cases where the verdicts were, at that time, imminent?

China has flagrantly ignored the Sino-British declaration in respect to Hong Kong, and it continues to flout international law in the South China Sea. Therefore, given that China has an observable track record of violating such international agreements and given that Mauritius was the first African country to sign an FTA with China, why does the Minister not believe that China is easily capable of similarly disregarding the agreement handing over sovereignty of the Chagos Islands and therefore establishing a competing base on one of the neighbouring islands to Diego Garcia?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

I was not expecting Chagos this afternoon, I have to say. We have discussed the issue around Chagos and the treaty we have with Mauritius at length. As the noble Lord knows, Mauritius is a close ally of India and the UK, and the treaty will be subject to scrutiny in this House, so I hope that the concerns he raises about Mauritius somehow being susceptible to something around China can be responded to during that process.

The noble Lord is right, though, to draw attention to the fact that the UK Prime Minister met President Xi at the G20 in Brazil in the last few days and rightly raised the case of Jimmy Lai. Noble Lords can see the footage of that exchange for themselves, and they can reach their own conclusions about how it went.

On the 45 who were sentenced under the NSL, we are opposed to the NSL. We see this as in breach of the agreement that we reached with China in respect of Hong Kong; we are deeply concerned about what has happened. The 45 people were exercising their right to political expression and have now been imprisoned for it, and we oppose this.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, after meeting President Xi, our Prime Minister said that he wanted to see more trade with China, notwithstanding the fact that the UK has a trade deficit in goods with China of over £25 billion. The previous Government refused to even countenance the suspension of some trade preferences from China in the UK economy if there were significant human rights abuses. In opposition, the noble Lord, Lord Collins, and I were at one in calling for a statutory human rights and trade policy. Can the Minister state that it is still the intention of the Government to ensure that human rights can trigger suspension of certain trade preferences from China if there are significant human rights abuses?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

As the noble Lord knows, we keep these things under constant review. We are deeply concerned about what has happened, not just in recent days in Hong Kong with the sentencing but about wider issues that I know he and my noble friend Lord Collins will have worked on together in the past. We have made quite strong statements at ministerial level in the last few days on these issues, and we will continue to do so as appropriate.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, 1,800 pro- democracy activists are in prison in Hong Kong, including the British national, Jimmy Lai. Even yesterday, he was interrogated in the Hong Kong courts, including being asked about a visit to your Lordships’ House. Given the situation that they find themselves in, why did the Prime Minister decline, according to a Guardian report this morning, on two occasions during the G20 summit to condemn the decision to extend the sentences on the 45?

Will the noble Baroness repudiate reports that a deal has been offered between the British Government and Xi Jinping to remove the sanctions on British parliamentarians—there are seven of us—in exchange for removing sanctions on those responsible for genocide in Xinjiang? Surely that would be morally reprehensible and something that we should never countenance.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, I will double-check, but I know of no such arrangement and I would be very surprised if that were the case. As he knows, we do not comment on sanction designations before they take place, and I would be very surprised if we would comment on something like that. I will check and get back to the noble Lord if I am wrong, but I would be very surprised if that report was in any way accurate.

[Lord Garnier (Con)]

My Lords, in the other place, the Minister’s right honourable friend said at the end of her Answer that the United Kingdom Government will always stand up for the people of Hong Kong. Could the Minister explain what she meant by that?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, I was among the people in the other place who called for the BNO passport holders to be given the rights that they have, and we will continue to do that. That is one way in which we stand up for the people of Hong Kong. The other way is through using our voice when we can. The view that this Government take—and I appreciate that this is a different take on this from that which the previous Government had—is that, through some engagement, we might be better able to effect the kind of change that we would all wish to see.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, I do not think that this is a party point at all. It all seems a bit defensive. Has not the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, got a point? We find all the time the Chinese trying to undermine our democracy by various subterranean or covert arrangements inside this country and in many other parts of the world, including most of the Commonwealth. Can we not at least be reassured that we are using the same degree of ingenuity to undermine completely false claims by the Chinese, particularly where they are flouting United Nations directives themselves? Can we establish that, while we have to trade and work on climate issues with the Chinese—you cannot just cancel them—nevertheless, we will be absolutely determined to hold them to the rule of law, which if they undermine they will pay the price for?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I agree with the gist of what the noble Lord has just said. He is right to point out that we have concerns with China on issues of human rights, and we raise them; we seek opportunities to do so. We do have a trade relationship with China and we also have global challenges on climate, health and other issues. It is in our best interests to co-operate and collaborate with China, but we will compete when we need to and we will not shy away from challenging when that is right as well.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that, in Opposition, the present Government pressed the previous Government to take steps of a trade kind when we had human rights situations of this kind? Now, in government, she has not given us an undertaking that she will do in power what she tried to get others to do when she was not in power.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

No, I do not agree with that. I would point out that this Government are taking a very different approach to China in many ways. The previous Government had what at best could be described as a passive approach, where criticisms were made here in the UK but there was very little engagement to speak of, especially not on a ministerial level. We are taking a different approach; we are having a review of China which is going to go across Whitehall, so noble Lords can expect to see a different tone from this Government. I do not know whether this new approach is going to have the effect that we would all wish to see on human rights—nobody could know that—but I am confident that our approach has a far better chance of achieving a good relationship, where we are able to be heard and have the conversations we need to have at the right level, with the effect that we wish to see.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I am saddened by the Minister’s response, because she will recall that the previous Government took a very robust stance when it came to the issues of human rights, particularly the situation in Xinjiang. She will also recall that it was the previous Government who took action on sanctioning what was happening in Xinjiang. The previous Government also took action in leading the way at the UN and at the human rights committee with other countries and building a coalition. So I ask the noble Baroness to reflect on her remarks, because the previous Government was pretty robust when it came to these issues.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I do accept that. The noble Lord is completely right. He will recall that we supported the previous Government in all those endeavours. The difference is that this Government are attempting to engage in a different way, at a different level. Noble Lords can have a view on whether that is something that they welcome or that they think will ultimately be futile. But this Government’s position is that it is right to engage and to try. However, I wholeheartedly accept the points that he made about the work that the last Government did and I want noble Lords to know that we supported those measures at every step and called for some of them.

European Forest Institute (Immunities and Privileges) Order 2024

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Wednesday 20th November 2024 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington]

That the draft Order laid before the House on 15 May be approved.

Considered in Grand Committee on 13 November.

Motion agreed.

Chagos Islands

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Thursday 14th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My Lords, the new Government were suspiciously quick to conclude the deal, within weeks of taking office, with the Mauritian Government, represented as they were by a close legal friend of the Prime Minister. They now seem strangely reluctant to allow anyone to see the actual text of this handover. Since then, of course, we have had two important elections, so can the Minister confirm what discussions the Government have had with the new US Administration and with the new Mauritian Government? Is this not a case of negotiating with the wrong people at the wrong time?

Today, the Chagossian Voices group sent a letter, signed by 200 Chagossians, to the Foreign Secretary, again confirming that no Minister has ever responded to its previous letters. Can the Minister confirm whether there are any plans to engage with Chagossians in these negotiations? Can she explain why no Chagossians have been consulted so far? The vast majority of Chagossians deeply resent their homeland being handed over on a subsidised plate to Mauritius, a country 1,000 miles away. Lastly, does the Minister think there are adequate safeguards in this treaty—which, of course, we have not yet seen—to allow the lease of Diego Garcia to be extended beyond its current 99 years?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, said, there have been changes of Government in the US and Mauritius. I take this opportunity to congratulate both President-elect Trump and the new Prime Minister, Dr Ramgoolam, in Mauritius, on their election victories. Changes of Government are an inevitable part of negotiations with fellow democracies. We have also had a change of Government in this country since these negotiations began. This is the conclusion of a few years’ worth of negotiation—11 to 13 rounds of negotiation took place under the previous Government. We were aware that this could happen, and we are working closely with our allies, in both the US and Mauritius, on making sure that everyone is comfortable with the deal and the treaty. We have no reason to think that this is not the case at this stage.

On engagement with Chagossians, it was not possible for them to be party to these negotiations because they took place between Governments. I regret what happened to the Chagossians in the past—it was over 50 years ago, but that in no way diminishes the pain and hurt that they will have experienced. I accept that Chagossians will be concerned about the arrangements reached. We have prioritised the security of the US-UK military facility on Diego Garcia. People can disagree with that and can say that prioritising security was the wrong thing to do, but that is what the Government have chosen on behalf of the people of the United Kingdom, because we think that was in the best interests of the UK. There are arrangements in the deal to allow Chagossians to visit and return, and some Chagossians will be able to take advantage of that.

The treaty will be published as soon as it has been finalised with the Mauritian Government, and there will be a process for Members of this House and the Commons to debate it.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

Given that there was no public information from the previous Government—of whom the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, was a member—about any of the 11 rounds of negotiations that took place, does the Minister agree that two points of principle should be adhered to now? First, for the treaty approval process, nothing should be done on behalf of the Chagossians without their involvement, and Parliament should have an ability to vote on the treaty proactively, rather than the limited process under the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act. Secondly, unlike what Nigel Farage or Kemi Badenoch might suggest, British foreign policy should be formed and set by us, not Donald Trump.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My understanding is that the process will be the usual one for agreeing these treaties. We need to be careful about the use of the word “consultation”, because there will be an opportunity to listen to the views of Chagossian communities and to understand that there is more than one view among them about this deal. It would be wrong to give the impression that there would be an opportunity to have a treaty changed in light of Chagossian voices. We can all have a view on that, and some of us might wish that it could be otherwise, but when we are dealing with a matter of security like this in the Indian Ocean, and with a treaty between two Governments, it is far better if we are up front and honest about what will be possible during that process.

[Baroness Whitaker (Lab)]

My Lords, is this not something of a trumped-up objection on the part of the Opposition? Does my noble friend agree that the previous Government never questioned the legitimacy of Mauritius’s eventual sovereignty over the Chagos Islands, very many years ago and internationally confirmed? Does she further agree that the majority of Chagossians do agree with this, and that all Chagossians are now being consulted by the Government? But can she say whether our Government are also discussing the resettlement plans with Mauritius?

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[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

What is important is that Chagossians have the right to visit and return that the Mauritian Government will be free to enable. This is new, and some Chagossians have said that they wish to see this. It will now be possible under this deal. On the record of the previous Government, it is not for me to say whether the outrage is faux—others will judge. But I will say that I regret very much the implication by some on the Opposition Benches—by no means all, and I do not point the finger at the noble Lord, Lord Callanan—to attempt to co-opt other overseas territories into this, and to somehow suggest that there is a vulnerability there, which there is not. This is a unique situation, and I am glad that we have been able to move this forward and resolve it. It secures our base in the Indian Ocean and gives certainty on that and to Chagossian communities here.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, as the noble Baroness’s brief will probably be telling her, the Chinese are taking an immensely close interest in what is happening in the Chagos Islands and Mauritius. Can she reassure us that the Foreign Office has a clear focus on how the Chinese are playing this situation and what they are up to generally, in the Chagos Islands and in many other islands and coastal states of the Commonwealth, where they are involving themselves increasingly closely?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We consider this issue closely. I draw noble Lords’ attention to the fact that Mauritius is a close ally of ours and of India, and it does not take part in the Chinese belt and road initiative. It is our view that the stable, secure and long-term arrangement we now have protects the Chagos Islands from any interest from any other parties that we would not wish to see.

[Lord Hain (Lab)]

As a Minister of State who dealt with this matter a quarter of a century ago, I applaud the Government for reaching an agreement. Does the Minister agree that if the treaty were somehow derailed by some of its critics, surely the losers would be not just our country but the United States, Mauritius, the Chagossians themselves, the United Nations General Assembly, the Commonwealth, the African Union and international law?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

It is hard to believe that it was 25 years ago. We are confident about this treaty and the fact that it secures our presence in the Indian Ocean. We accept that when there is a change of Government questions are raised and it is right that new Governments will want to cast their own eyes over the deal that has been done. We respect that and will co-operate, but we are confident that we can answer any concerns that may exist, because we think this is the right thing for us, for Mauritius and for the Chagos Islands, in securing our security.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, will the Minister accept my welcome for what she said—that this treaty, when it has been concluded, will be brought to both Houses? If it involves the International Agreements Committee, on which I have the honour to serve, will she undertake that the committee will be given sufficient time to take proper evidence on the treaty before it?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

That would be very helpful indeed. My experience is that the more people find out about the treaty and the deal that has been done, the more likely that some of the concerns they will naturally have—we welcome questions and scrutiny on this—can be answered fully. I am not responsible for the scheduling and timing, but I am sure my noble friend the Chief Whip has heard what the noble Lord said.

BBC World Service

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Thursday 14th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, the BBC World Service provides impartial, accurate news and journalism in 42 languages to 320 million people globally. It remains the world’s most trusted international news broadcaster. The Government recognise the World Service’s value as a soft power asset and its contribution to countering disinformation and ensuring access to free and impartial news. We value the emergency response services stood up recently in Gaza, Ukraine and Sudan to provide vital safety and security information.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that Answer. It is welcome that the Government have improved funding of the BBC World Service in the coming financial year, but is the Minister aware that in the past, cuts in the World Service have led to frequencies being withdrawn and immediately being taken over by the Russians and the Chinese in order to push out their propaganda? Surely, the BBC World Service is source of great strength to this country. Could we not have a long-term funding arrangement to secure what is, after all, one of Britain’s greatest assets?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I agree with my noble friend. Although decisions about where to operate and what channels to use are clearly for the BBC to make—it is independent of government in that way—it is a service that we have insufficiently valued and promoted over the years. I am pleased that we have been able to improve the situation somewhat so far, but I completely agree with my noble friend that a long-term solution is what is really needed.

[The Earl of Courtown (Con)]

My Lords, in her Answer to the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, the Minister mentioned the issue of disinformation, which is of prime importance and obviously a threat to democracy around the world. What steps is she taking further to promote the BBC World Service as a trusted source of information?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, that is a very good question. At the moment, 75% of those who listen to the World Service live in places that do not have good levels of media freedom, so we need to work with the World Service to promote what it does, both around the world, as the noble Lord says, and here in the UK. I think more people would benefit from and feel pride in knowing what the World Service has done to counter disinformation around the world.

[Lord Birt (CB)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a former director-general of the BBC. For nearly a century, the BBC World Service has been a key element of the UK’s soft power globally. For almost all of that time it was directly and completely funded by the FCO. Can the Minister articulate any justification at all for the World Service being funded in whole or in part by the UK licence fee payer?

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[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

That is not a decision that this Government made. Looking back, it was a mistake to put that burden entirely on the licence fee payer. We are looking at long-term solutions and we are open-minded about what they might be, but I repeat: the important thing is that we preserve all that is good that the World Service does for us around the world, but it needs to be on a much more secure footing so that we do not have the annual discussions we have had to have. It needs to plan, and it needs security to enable it to continue to do the amazing work it does.

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans]

My Lords, there is a tension here between having an independent BBC, which we are all grateful for—indeed, that is part of its integrity—and it being part of our strategic soft power. Could the noble Baroness tell us a little bit more about the strategic approach His Majesty’s Government are taking to thinking about the key places we need to engage with, not least in countering the deliberate disinformation coming from China and Russia, which is fundamental to the future of our democracies?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

It is vital that we maintain the independent position the BBC has, so that it makes its own decisions. However, this Government want to refresh the approach to soft power. We are establishing a soft power council, in which I hope the World Service will take part. From my point of view, it is absolutely legitimate for the Government to say that we are worried about these circumstances in these places and to share our understanding of situations around the world, and it is for the BBC to tell us to back off and to make its own decisions. My aim is to have a collaborative, respectful relationship with the BBC, preserving at all times its independence and ability to make its own choices.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, I agree with the comments the Minister just made and thank the Leader for her response to me two weeks ago, when I raised concerns about World Service cuts in Lebanon. Does the Minister share my concern that, although the BBC World Service is critical for supporting civil society in many conflict areas, the more recent government development cuts of £2 billion—a reduction from 0.58% of GNI to 0.5%—could put at risk the very kind of programmes that support civil society resilience in many conflict areas? I welcome the extra support for the BBC World Service, but will the Minister make sure that there are not cuts elsewhere to programmes that support civil society in these critical vulnerable areas?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We are reviewing development spend, as noble Lords would expect. We do not have the luxury of limitless funds to spend. We are spending a lot of our development money on housing people who arrive here in the UK for 12 months after their arrival. We need to get that spend down so that we can spend it much more wisely on preventing conflict, educating women and girls, supporting freedom of religion and belief, and all the other really positive, important work that we want to do in country. That is our aim.

[Lord Grade of Yarmouth (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I draw attention to my interests, past and present, as listed in the register. The Minister referred to a long-term strategy for the World Service. Such a document exists. I chaired a group commissioned by the then Foreign Secretary, Jeremy Hunt. This report got lost in one of those infrequent reshuffles of the last few years, but it stands today as a blueprint for enhancing the BBC World Service’s influence in exercising the great soft power that exists for Britain’s foreign policy. Will she dust it down and read it?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for bringing that to my attention. I was not aware that there was a strategy dating back to that time, but I commit to finding it and reading it.

[Baroness Coussins (CB)]

My Lords, will the Minister undertake to conduct and publish, before any future funding formula for the BBC is agreed, a dedicated impact assessment for the World Service which takes into account criteria such as the value of soft power and the need for built-in budgetary flexibility, so that the World Service can respond to geopolitical situations in times of jeopardy, which is part of what the charter says it is there for?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The key thing is that we reset the relationship we have with the World Service and stop using the BBC as some kind of political football. In recent years, and without the knowledge of many people, BBC Monitoring and the World Service have provided the most accurate assessment of the Russian war dead in Ukraine. They are educating women and girls in Afghanistan who have been excluded from education. They are the most reliable source of information in areas of conflict, where there is very little else available that can be trusted. We call what they are doing soft power; I think that is the wrong name for it, frankly. Other nations are investing heavily in their propaganda. We do not do that. We allow the independent, high-quality journalism of the World Service to speak for us and to support people in country. I am immensely proud of it and we need to work long term to support it.

[Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford (Con)]

My Lords, we have already heard today of the importance of the BBC World Service as a voice for accurate reporting in many conflict states and politically restricted states, but just this week we had a Question about the risks journalists face in order to do this reporting. Can the Minister say what support and measures the Government are offering to ensure the safety and security of journalists and staff in hostile environments?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

It is vital that journalists be able to go about their work in telling the truth, often in the most difficult of circumstances. They have full consular support from us. We are a member of several multilateral organisations supporting media freedom and the rights of journalists to do their work. We will continue that. I am proud of what the UK has done over many years in this space. We will continue to do that as a new Government.

West Papua

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Wednesday 13th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what representations they are making to the government of Indonesia to ensure that the recommendations of the UN Human Rights Committee regarding the indigenous population in West Papua are fully implemented.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, the UK welcomes the recommendations of the UN Human Rights Committee in response to the second periodic report of Indonesia under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. We regularly raise our concerns about the human rights situation in Papua, both with the Indonesian embassy in London and directly with the Government in Jakarta. In July 2024, the Foreign Secretary raised Papua with the then Foreign Minister, Retno Marsudi.

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth (CB)]

I thank the Minister for her reply. Since Indonesia invaded and occupied West Papua there have been the most appalling human rights atrocities. Perhaps as many as 300,000 people have been killed, and particularly worrying at the moment is the way West Papua is being repopulated by people from Indonesia so that the indigenous population is in danger of becoming a minority in its own country. The world does not know about this, because Indonesia refuses to allow the press, NGOs or human rights commissioners in. What further steps could the Government take to press the Indonesian Government, and what further steps might they take with the UN itself? This situation has gone on for far too long.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The noble and right reverend Lord raises his concerns about this issue consistently, and we respect him for doing that. As I say, we will continue to raise concerns through the Foreign Minister and others. Minister Dodds visited Indonesia in September, and she also raised concerns about Papua.

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

My Lords, the Government are committed to universal human rights. The Minister may anticipate my question, as I have mentioned it before in the House. When are the Government going to appoint a special envoy for freedom of religion and belief? Contrary to the promises that have been made, this has not happened. This is a bipartisan issue, which we all support.

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[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

This is very much a bipartisan issue, and so it should always be. The Government will be making announcements about trade envoys and others, I hope very soon.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, has the Minister been briefed on the Human Rights Watch report from September, which recommended that the Indonesian Government unconditionally release West Papua and other detainees in exercise of their fundamental political rights, and specifically for the new Indonesian Government, just formed, to permit UN human rights monitors to visit West Papua? This would honour a commitment that the previous Indonesian Government gave in 2018 but that has yet to be honoured. Have His Majesty’s Government specifically asked for that latter point with the new Administration?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We support the work of the UN Commission on Human Rights in this regard. As the noble Lord suggests, this was raised in recent dialogue with Indonesian political representatives.

[The Lord Bishop of Manchester]

My Lords, do His Majesty’s Government agree with the Pacific Conference of Churches that the future for West Papua, alongside Mā’ohi Nui, or French Polynesia, and Kanaky, or New Caledonia, lies in self-determination? If so, what conversations have His Majesty’s Government had with the Indonesian Government to put the case that they should give freedom to those territories they have invaded and annexed?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The issue here is that we support self-determination but recognise the territorial integrity of Indonesia. There are many cases where there are independence movements, including, it should be noted, here in the UK. It is usually wise for international partners to raise these sorts of issues in a very careful way. We have raised issues of human rights, but we respect, as I have said, the integrity of the borders of Indonesia.

[Lord Gold (Con)]

My Lords, the deliberate abuse going on is terrible. If the Government are going to be consistent with their policy, should they not be doing something more than talking to the ambassador for Indonesia? We have seen elsewhere that they are prepared to stop trade. There is £3.5 billion-worth of trade going on with Indonesia each year. Perhaps the Government should stop some of it.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We have a range of options, as the noble Lord indicates, and these judgments can be very finely balanced around how to have influence and how to become an irrelevant voice on the sidelines. We encourage Indonesia to co-operate with the United Nations. I do not think that all we are doing is talking to the Indonesian ambassador —although of course we do that. These issues have been raised by the Foreign Secretary and by the Minister for Development, Minister Dodds, in person, in Indonesia, at ministerial level.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister is right to be realistic. Is there any evidence whatever that taking action against one country on trade would make any difference? Quite frankly, if we go down that road then there will be hardly any nations we can trade with.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Every circumstance is different. All the situations where we have concerns are unique. Sometimes it is not possible to raise concerns through dialogue. Sometimes the nature of the relationship is such that that is completely unproductive; we can all think of examples where that is the case. In the case of Indonesia, we have a good relationship with the Government there. We seek to use that relationship to raise these concerns. I think that is the right approach.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I am sure the Minister is aware that the alien and invasive crop of palm oil, which was imposed on the people of West Papua little more than a decade ago, has caused enormous destruction and is very much associated with the human rights abuses that the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, raised in his Question. I do not know whether she is aware of an excellent anthropological study of this, In the Shadow of the Palms: More-Than-Human Becomings in West Papua, which describes how, for the indigenous people of West Papua, oil palms are like sessile triffids that have come in and destroyed their environment and their communities. Can she assure me that no palm oil from West Papua is coming into the UK?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We have worked with the Indonesian Government on sustainable palm oil. I have not read the anthropological study that the noble Baroness refers to, but if she wants to send it to me I would be very happy to look at it. We very much support the role of indigenous communities, particularly in promoting biodiversity and preventing deforestation. They are vital partners and we will achieve very little unless we work closely with indigenous communities.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

My Lords, should we not be concerned about the Indonesian colonisation of West Papua, which, as the noble and right reverend Lord said, has led to the deaths of tens of thousands among the indigenous population? Will the Government do all they can to stir the international community into action on this matter?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I think the international community is aware of the situation in Papua, hence the interest from the United Nations. We will continue to work through that method, and bilaterally, to raise the issues that we are all so concerned about.

[Lord Spellar (Lab)]

My Lord, I congratulate the Minister on the very measured approach that she is taking. Can she reassure us that the Foreign Office recognises the crucial importance of Indonesia, which is the fourth most populous nation in the world, the most populous Muslim nation, and a crucial part of the economic and security infrastructure in the Indo-Pacific? While we make those representations, can we also advance our relationship?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Whenever possible, influence should be gained through a good relationship and, sometimes, by being a critical friend. The noble Lord’s points about the wider Indo-Pacific and the security situation are things that a responsible Government here in the UK need to take into account.

[Lord Hannan of Kingsclere (Con)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for her answers to the noble Lords, Lord Spellar and Lord Watts. Will she take this opportunity to congratulate Indonesia on having last month deposited its formal application to join the CPTPP? Will she congratulate it on, like us, having had a recent democratic and peaceful transition of power, where the new Government keep the same trade policy towards the Pacific bloc as the previous one? Will she take this opportunity to confirm that we will not engage in the kind of protectionism disguised as environmentalism that has led the rapeseed oil industry in Europe to come up with, effectively, a sabotage of any trade deal, thereby opening the door towards the UK being Indonesia’s chief trading partner in this part of the world?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We note the approach to the CPTPP by Indonesia. We believe in free trade and we want to strengthen our trading relationship with partners through the CPTPP, as the noble Lord would expect.

Journalists Detained or Killed Overseas

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Wednesday 13th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Black of Brentwood (Con)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper, and I declare an interest as patron of the Rory Peck Trust and note my other interests in the register.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, we urge the South Sudanese Government to protect journalists and end impunity for human rights abuses. We consistently pressed them to conduct a thorough and credible investigation into Christopher Allen’s death, which resulted in the formation of the investigative committee in 2003 and the subsequent report in March 2024. The UK is examining options to strengthen support for British nationals abroad, including a right to assistance in cases of human rights violations.

[Lord Black of Brentwood (Con)]

My Lords, in August 2017, journalist Christopher Allen, a UK-US citizen, was brutally murdered by government forces in South Sudan while reporting on the conflict there, his corpse despoiled and trophy images of it displayed and filmed in an act of barbarity. No one has been brought to justice, and the report the noble Baroness mentions was deeply flawed and was condemned by international lawyers and press freedom groups as a whitewash.

I have two points for the noble Baroness. First, what pressure will the Government bring to bear on South Sudan to facilitate a proper, independent report which allows Christopher’s family finally to learn the facts about his killing and establish lessons for the UK Government? Secondly, what action will the Government take to bring an end to appalling levels of impunity? Some 80% of the killings of journalists worldwide go unpunished, which directly puts the lives of British journalists in jeopardy.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his supplementary question, and he is absolutely right to draw attention to this issue. We recognise the criticisms about the report that he outlined. We want to know what happened. When you lose a member of your family in such circumstances, in the conduct of their work in a dangerous situation, the family is entitled to know what happened. Sadly, I am afraid that I do not have a great deal of optimism about getting another investigation that would be any more credible or shed any more light on what happened. However, I thank the noble Lord for again bringing the House’s attention to Christopher Allen’s case, and we send our deepest sympathies again to his family.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, in the second part of the noble Baroness’s very welcome reply to the Question that has been put to her, she referred to providing assistance in cases of human rights violation. I welcome the fact that it was a manifesto commitment to do that. Considering the recent meetings that the Foreign Secretary has had with his Chinese and Egyptian counterparts, can the Minister outline what concrete steps His Majesty’s Government have taken to secure consular access to Jimmy Lai, a British publisher who was unjustly jailed in Hong Kong, and Alaa Abd el-Fattah, a British blogger who has been arbitrarily imprisoned in Egypt for the past 10 years?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

As the noble Lord knows, I believe that we have answered questions on Jimmy Lai very recently, but we continue to raise these cases at ministerial level with the relevant Governments, and we remain deeply concerned that we have been unable to gain the access that we would wish.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her Question. We in the previous Government were very much focused on this; can the Minister reassure us about the focus of this Government on media freedom globally and the international alliance that the previous Government set up with Canada? Secondly, the previous Government were exploring the issue of compensation. She may recall that, back in 2014 under the leadership of my noble friend Lord Cameron, we set up a compensation fund for victims of terrorism abroad. Efforts were made to see whether we could also look at extending the scope of that fund, which—from memory—sits with the Ministry of Justice.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

In thanking the noble Lord, I note that sometimes, where there is a change of power in our democracy, former Ministers take with them different things; the noble Lord takes with him a desire to make sure that the torch is received by the incoming Government and that we will carry on doing the work that he initiated. We respect that. I will consider the points he makes about compensation; as he rightly says, that may well lie in other departments, but he was right to raise them.

[Baroness Boycott (CB)]

My Lords, so many conflicts now are incredibly dangerous that reporters who are on the front line—often the faces and the voices that we see and hear on our news channels—are not the people who actually shoot the footage and get out there on the front line. Often, these freelance journalists are inadequately protected. I know that they are protected by some statute, but could the Minister look to see whether, in the case of broadcasts that we see here in the UK, we could at least offer them flack jackets and some level of support, and ensure that, if they do get into trouble, they are helped and, possibly, returned, if that is necessary, to the UK or a place of safety?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We respect enormously the work that is done by journalists. We advise against all travel to South Sudan, and yet we know that it is important that the truth of what is happening there is reported by brave journalists. We will offer every assistance that we can, should they need it.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware that aid to South Sudan comes in different strands, including humanitarian development and direct budget support. As far as the latter is concerned, that is money paid by the UK Government to South Sudanese government departments, where there is obviously some leverage that can be made. Therefore, can she comment on what pressure is being put on them and how they are using that leverage in a constructive way?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

It is true that there are different options we can use to approach South Sudan. We can disengage or we can use various levers. We have a relationship with the Government there, and our view is that that is the best way to have some influence. We have a team in Juba, and we provide assistance to people in the most desperate situations. It is one of the most difficult areas on the planet at the moment. Our Minister for Development, in her first visit to Africa, chose to visit South Sudan just to make sure that we use every opportunity to raise our concerns.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, the situation in Juba, South Sudan, requires the kind of reporting and free media that the Minister states, and I agree with her very strongly. However, in Sudan, with the world’s greatest humanitarian crisis and the conflict going on, there is scant reporting and still very brave journalists who are under very considerable threat. The Disasters Emergency Committee has told me that it is not willing to open a humanitarian appeal for Sudan because of the lack of public awareness of the Sudanese crisis. Will the Government support UK-based media and those who are seeking to allow the public to understand that the world’s greatest humanitarian crisis is going on? Those who are responsible for asking the public for support are not being asked.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I was not aware that the DEC took that view. I will look into that, following the noble Lord’s question. It is clearly right that journalists should be able to report from situations that they feel we need to know about, and we respect their freedom to do that and support it. I assure journalists who wish to report from Sudan that they will have the support of the British Government in doing their job.

[Lord Curry of Kirkharle (CB)]

My Lords, the situation in South Sudan is dangerous for all citizens, not just journalists. Democratic elections planned for this month have been cancelled. Can His Majesty’s Government explain what they are doing to achieve stability and to re-establish democracy in South Sudan?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

It is true that progress on the peace agreement has been slow and progress towards holding democratic elections is not what we would want to see. We continue to press upon the Government in South Sudan the importance of making progress and our continued support for the peace process. However, the institutions needed for elections are not sufficiently developed as yet. None the less, we will continue to make the case for free and fair elections in South Sudan.

[Lord Camoys (Con)]

My Lords, there are more than 1,400 political prisoners in the Russian Federation, at least 63 of whom are journalists and media actors. There have been reports of Russia targeting journalists in the Ukraine war. Does the Minister know how many British journalists are in Ukraine, and how does she plan to keep them safe?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The truth is that I do not know how many British journalists are in Ukraine or whether anybody would be able to answer the noble Lord’s question. However, we work with media organisations, we listen to Reporters Sans Frontières and we take the concerns that they raise seriously and use every lever that we can, multilaterally and bilaterally, to ensure the safety of journalists, who, as I have said, do such an important job for us. It is vital that we understand what is happening in Ukraine.

European Forest Institute (Immunities and Privileges) Order 2024

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Wednesday 13th November 2024 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington]

That the Grand Committee do consider the European Forest Institute (Immunities and Privileges) Order 2024.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, copies of this order were laid before this House on 15 May 2024. The order was laid in draft before Parliament on 15 May, in accordance with the International Organisations Act 1968. It is subject to the affirmative procedure and will be made once it is approved by both Houses. The order was approved in the House of Commons on 23 October 2024.

The main legal recourse to grant privileges and immunities to international organisations with a presence in the United Kingdom is the International Organisations Act 1968, which specifies the maximum privileges and immunities that may be accorded in the UK to various categories of international organisations. The provisions of the Act are applied to different organisations by means of Orders in Council. This order will confer on the European Forest Institute, referred to as the EFI, a bespoke set of privileges and immunities to enable the organisation to function and operate effectively in the UK. It does not confer legal capacity, as this was conferred on the EFI in the European Forest Institute (Legal Capacities) Order 2005.

This order will contribute to the fostering of closer collaboration between the EFI, its members and the UK Government, and support the establishment of an EFI UK office. In addition, in granting these privileges and immunities, we will be able to host an expansion of the EFI’s international partnerships facility in the UK through the opening of a UK office. The international partnerships facility is a global centre of knowledge and expertise that supports policy and governance reforms to improve forest governance and safeguard the world’s forests.

The EFI would host a small, permanent UK-based team, as well as drawing internationally renowned expertise into the UK. With London a major hub for private sector climate finance, there are potential opportunities to bring international forest and finance experts together to foster new financial initiatives, aimed at protecting the world’s forests and tackling climate change and nature loss. The order affords the director, the head of office and EFI staff members a bespoke set of privileges and immunities which diplomatic agents of a diplomatic mission established in the UK are entitled to, including an exemption from the suit and legal process. However, no immunity is conferred in the case of a motor traffic offence or damage caused by a motor vehicle. This is now a standard clause included in statutory instruments and treaties providing for privileges and immunities.

The Government consider these privileges and immunities necessary and appropriate to deliver on the interests and commitments that the UK has towards the EFI. The privileges and immunities conferred will enable its staff to operate effectively in the UK. They are within the scope of the International Organisations Act and in line with UK precedents. The EFI’s board members, and representatives of members, are subject to “official act” immunities. These immunities cover the inviolability of official papers and documents, customs provisions and immunity from suit and legal process, within the scope of official activities. The order also covers the inviolability of the EFI premises and archives, taxes and customs rates, and an immunity waiver.

The support for the EFI’s establishment of an office in the UK is a unique opportunity to reinforce the UK’s leadership on international forests and climate policy. The UK has been involved with the EFI for over 10 years, including through the FCDO’s flagship forest governance, markets and climate programme. Together with the EFI, we have supported national processes on forest and land-use governance in 17 countries across the three tropical forest basins. The EFI is key to that work and the UK remains committed to the organisation. I beg to move.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, for her comprehensive introduction to this subject. She will not be surprised to know that we are fully supportive of the European Forest Institute. It is a good idea for it to be based in the UK and we support the instrument that the Minister has brought before us today.

The EFI plays a pivotal role in advancing research, fostering innovation and developing evidence-based policy recommendations for the extremely important subject of sustainable forestry. As ecological degradation threatens forests worldwide, the institute has a key role to play and its work is becoming ever more vital. As the Minister said, this order seeks to grant immunities and privileges to the EFI, in line with a number of similar agreements that we have established with other international institutions—I took some of those orders through Grand Committee a matter of months ago. Immunities such as those outlined in the order are essential for allowing the EFI to operate independently, free from local administrative and judicial interference.

The UK has historically been a leader in international environmental co-operation. Supporting the EFI aligns with our commitment to combat climate change. It reflects our shared desire for forests that are productive, biodiverse and resilient against the stresses of modernity. The only question I have for the Minister is whether she has any more of these orders coming forward for other international organisations or whether this is the only one outstanding at the moment. We support this order.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his support. It is very good when we can agree on important issues such as this on a long-term, bipartisan basis. It is good to be able to work in this way on an issue such as forestry, especially in a week when the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary are at COP in Baku, where deforestation and the responsible management of forests will no doubt be discussed. I welcome the support from the Official Opposition.

Motion agreed.

China: Human Rights and Sanctions

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Tuesday 29th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My Lords, we are told that when the Foreign Secretary visited China, he raised British citizen Jimmy Lai’s sham detention, and we welcome that. Jimmy is 76 and is being held in solitary confinement, yet the Foreign Secretary has still not met Jimmy’s son, despite his coming to the UK on multiple occasions and asking for a meeting. Yesterday in the other place, the Foreign Secretary failed to answer whether or not he would meet Jimmy’s son, so let me give the Minister another opportunity. Will Ministers meet Jimmy Lai’s son—yes or no?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

That is quite an easy one because my colleague, Minister Catherine West, has met Jimmy’s family on several occasions, both in opposition and since being appointed as a Minister. I also recall from reading the transcript of the Commons exchanges yesterday that the Foreign Secretary did indeed commit to meeting Sebastien Lai.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, the Foreign Secretary said yesterday in the House of Commons

“this Government will set a long-term, consistent and strategic approach to China”.

That would be welcome. He went on, however, to criticise the previous Government in 2015 for what they termed a “golden era” of their relationship with China. Have the Government committed in their strategic audit of their relations with China, which I support, to include all the preferential trading agreements the UK has offered China? This includes financial services, where Chinese state enterprises which have some element of involvement in human rights abuses may be involved in preferential market access to British financial services. Will that review be public?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his support for the China audit. I think the most helpful thing I can say at this point is that the audit will be thorough and cross-government; the whole of Whitehall and all departments will be included in that audit.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

I am astonished that the Foreign Secretary did not offer a Statement to the House of Commons but forced an Urgent Question, which has, of course, limited our opportunity to ask questions as well. Is it because he understands that there are some western democracies that, in the recent past, have got their people out of Chinese Communist Party prisons, yet his kowtowing visit means that he came back empty-handed as far as Jimmy Lai is concerned?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, I must disagree with my noble friend on his assertions and the tone in which he put his question. My right honourable friend David Lammy, the Foreign Secretary, went to China because he wanted to raise these issues. Unless we engage with China, we do not get the opportunity to raise these issues. He raised the case of Jimmy Lai. He has called for Jimmy Lai to be released, as well he should. This is consistent with his position in opposition. He has gone further and made sure that every Minister in their engagement with China continues to raise on every occasion the case of Jimmy Lai. He should be released.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the United Kingdom consistently led on the situation of the Uighurs in Xinjiang. Last year, at the UN Third Committee and subsequently at the Human Rights Council, 51 member states, led by the United Kingdom, signed a statement. I note with some degree of disappointment that there was a statement presented this year at the same forum, where only 16 countries, the United Kingdom included, came behind an Australian- led permanent representative statement. What action will the Government take to continue to ensure the UK’s leadership on this important issue?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We will continue to lead on this issue where we can in international fora. I am grateful for what the noble Lord said, and we share his concerns on this. But, to reiterate, the Foreign Secretary raised Xinjiang and the Uighur people in China last week, and he will continue to do so because our concerns have not changed since the change of Government. He will continue to raise those issues whenever and wherever he can.

[Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws (Lab)]

I will ask the Minister about the situation for parliamentarians in this country who were sanctioned because of raising what was happening to the Uighur community in Xinjiang province. Two Members of this House—myself and the noble Lord, Lord Alton—and five Members of the House of Commons were sanctioned. I understand that that was not raised in the Foreign Secretary’s meeting with the leadership in China. Preserving our right to raise human rights issues, without feeling that there will be consequences for doing so, should concern this House.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I completely agree with my noble friend, as does the Foreign Secretary. These issues are raised. The sanctions against parliamentarians for things they have said are completely unwarranted and unacceptable. The Foreign Secretary met with Speaker Hoyle before his trip to China to reiterate that this was a concern to him. It is a concern to the Foreign Secretary and to all of us in the Government. It is inappropriate that parliamentarians in this and the other House should be sanctioned in this way, and we will consistently raise this with China.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, I am sure that it is right to raise where Chinese behaviour is deplorable and to challenge China robustly, but should we not seek to switch the emphasis to a less defensive and more positive side? We can outsmart the Chinese by showing that our kind of liberal capitalism, when we reform it—it needs reforming—is vastly superior to anything they can deliver, and that freedom under the law and free speech are of more benefit to nations than falling under the Chinese hegemon, as they will find in time. If the security and prosperity of the developing world are the prime requirement, the Commonwealth contains six of the fastest-growing economies in the world—a very much better bunch than the dodgy deals of BRI and other arrangements with the Chinese, where countries just find themselves loaded with more and more debt. Is there not a more positive side to take, as well as raising these issues that have very properly been raised?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

On this Government’s approach, we want a consistent, strategic and pragmatic relationship because we think that is the best way to make progress on some of these issues that are of concern to all sides of the House. The way that we are describing this is that we will co-operate where we can, compete where we need to and challenge where we must.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, did the Foreign Secretary raise the appalling treatment of Tibetans, particularly the sacrilege by which some of their wonderfully famous and sacred sites are being destroyed? If this was raised, does the Minister know the answer?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I am frantically looking through the read-out of the exchange to see a reference to Tibet. I assure the noble Baroness that the Foreign Secretary raised a number of foreign policy and security matters, particularly issues around human rights. As she would expect, you do not get an instant result in these sorts of exchanges—diplomacy is about consistency and it takes time. But we are now in a period where we want a consistent, stable and pragmatic relationship. For 14 years, the relationship has blown hot and cold, and we have not had that stability and consistency. So that is the approach we will see from this Government.

[Lord Hannan of Kingsclere (Con)]

My Lords, the Chinese state is not the first autocracy in the world and it may not be the most repressive, but it is by far the most technologically advanced. The ways in which the People’s Republic uses face recognition technology, surveillance technology and apps that monitor your phone is without precedent, as is the way it uses notionally private companies, such as Tencent, Weibo and Alibaba. Has the Minister’s department made any assessment of whether this kind of surveillance state could be exported; in other words, whether China’s allies and client states might be offered the package of a panopticon state to use on their own citizens?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, we are concerned about surveillance and threats to, for instance, BNO passport holders or others here in the UK, and we monitor that extremely closely. We take our responsibilities towards human rights, compromises of freedom of religious belief and other issues of privacy very seriously.

[Lord Garnier (Con)]

My Lords, what assessment have the Government made of China’s intentions to act aggressively in a military sense in the western Pacific? Do they agree that it is highly likely to come very shortly? What are we doing about it?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, we take the issues of freedom of navigation on the high seas extremely seriously. These were raised with China by the Foreign Secretary, and we made our position on these issues very clear.