China: Human Rights and Sanctions

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Tuesday 29th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My Lords, we are told that when the Foreign Secretary visited China, he raised British citizen Jimmy Lai’s sham detention, and we welcome that. Jimmy is 76 and is being held in solitary confinement, yet the Foreign Secretary has still not met Jimmy’s son, despite his coming to the UK on multiple occasions and asking for a meeting. Yesterday in the other place, the Foreign Secretary failed to answer whether or not he would meet Jimmy’s son, so let me give the Minister another opportunity. Will Ministers meet Jimmy Lai’s son—yes or no?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

That is quite an easy one because my colleague, Minister Catherine West, has met Jimmy’s family on several occasions, both in opposition and since being appointed as a Minister. I also recall from reading the transcript of the Commons exchanges yesterday that the Foreign Secretary did indeed commit to meeting Sebastien Lai.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, the Foreign Secretary said yesterday in the House of Commons

“this Government will set a long-term, consistent and strategic approach to China”.

That would be welcome. He went on, however, to criticise the previous Government in 2015 for what they termed a “golden era” of their relationship with China. Have the Government committed in their strategic audit of their relations with China, which I support, to include all the preferential trading agreements the UK has offered China? This includes financial services, where Chinese state enterprises which have some element of involvement in human rights abuses may be involved in preferential market access to British financial services. Will that review be public?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his support for the China audit. I think the most helpful thing I can say at this point is that the audit will be thorough and cross-government; the whole of Whitehall and all departments will be included in that audit.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

I am astonished that the Foreign Secretary did not offer a Statement to the House of Commons but forced an Urgent Question, which has, of course, limited our opportunity to ask questions as well. Is it because he understands that there are some western democracies that, in the recent past, have got their people out of Chinese Communist Party prisons, yet his kowtowing visit means that he came back empty-handed as far as Jimmy Lai is concerned?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, I must disagree with my noble friend on his assertions and the tone in which he put his question. My right honourable friend David Lammy, the Foreign Secretary, went to China because he wanted to raise these issues. Unless we engage with China, we do not get the opportunity to raise these issues. He raised the case of Jimmy Lai. He has called for Jimmy Lai to be released, as well he should. This is consistent with his position in opposition. He has gone further and made sure that every Minister in their engagement with China continues to raise on every occasion the case of Jimmy Lai. He should be released.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the United Kingdom consistently led on the situation of the Uighurs in Xinjiang. Last year, at the UN Third Committee and subsequently at the Human Rights Council, 51 member states, led by the United Kingdom, signed a statement. I note with some degree of disappointment that there was a statement presented this year at the same forum, where only 16 countries, the United Kingdom included, came behind an Australian- led permanent representative statement. What action will the Government take to continue to ensure the UK’s leadership on this important issue?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We will continue to lead on this issue where we can in international fora. I am grateful for what the noble Lord said, and we share his concerns on this. But, to reiterate, the Foreign Secretary raised Xinjiang and the Uighur people in China last week, and he will continue to do so because our concerns have not changed since the change of Government. He will continue to raise those issues whenever and wherever he can.

[Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws (Lab)]

I will ask the Minister about the situation for parliamentarians in this country who were sanctioned because of raising what was happening to the Uighur community in Xinjiang province. Two Members of this House—myself and the noble Lord, Lord Alton—and five Members of the House of Commons were sanctioned. I understand that that was not raised in the Foreign Secretary’s meeting with the leadership in China. Preserving our right to raise human rights issues, without feeling that there will be consequences for doing so, should concern this House.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I completely agree with my noble friend, as does the Foreign Secretary. These issues are raised. The sanctions against parliamentarians for things they have said are completely unwarranted and unacceptable. The Foreign Secretary met with Speaker Hoyle before his trip to China to reiterate that this was a concern to him. It is a concern to the Foreign Secretary and to all of us in the Government. It is inappropriate that parliamentarians in this and the other House should be sanctioned in this way, and we will consistently raise this with China.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, I am sure that it is right to raise where Chinese behaviour is deplorable and to challenge China robustly, but should we not seek to switch the emphasis to a less defensive and more positive side? We can outsmart the Chinese by showing that our kind of liberal capitalism, when we reform it—it needs reforming—is vastly superior to anything they can deliver, and that freedom under the law and free speech are of more benefit to nations than falling under the Chinese hegemon, as they will find in time. If the security and prosperity of the developing world are the prime requirement, the Commonwealth contains six of the fastest-growing economies in the world—a very much better bunch than the dodgy deals of BRI and other arrangements with the Chinese, where countries just find themselves loaded with more and more debt. Is there not a more positive side to take, as well as raising these issues that have very properly been raised?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

On this Government’s approach, we want a consistent, strategic and pragmatic relationship because we think that is the best way to make progress on some of these issues that are of concern to all sides of the House. The way that we are describing this is that we will co-operate where we can, compete where we need to and challenge where we must.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, did the Foreign Secretary raise the appalling treatment of Tibetans, particularly the sacrilege by which some of their wonderfully famous and sacred sites are being destroyed? If this was raised, does the Minister know the answer?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I am frantically looking through the read-out of the exchange to see a reference to Tibet. I assure the noble Baroness that the Foreign Secretary raised a number of foreign policy and security matters, particularly issues around human rights. As she would expect, you do not get an instant result in these sorts of exchanges—diplomacy is about consistency and it takes time. But we are now in a period where we want a consistent, stable and pragmatic relationship. For 14 years, the relationship has blown hot and cold, and we have not had that stability and consistency. So that is the approach we will see from this Government.

[Lord Hannan of Kingsclere (Con)]

My Lords, the Chinese state is not the first autocracy in the world and it may not be the most repressive, but it is by far the most technologically advanced. The ways in which the People’s Republic uses face recognition technology, surveillance technology and apps that monitor your phone is without precedent, as is the way it uses notionally private companies, such as Tencent, Weibo and Alibaba. Has the Minister’s department made any assessment of whether this kind of surveillance state could be exported; in other words, whether China’s allies and client states might be offered the package of a panopticon state to use on their own citizens?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, we are concerned about surveillance and threats to, for instance, BNO passport holders or others here in the UK, and we monitor that extremely closely. We take our responsibilities towards human rights, compromises of freedom of religious belief and other issues of privacy very seriously.

[Lord Garnier (Con)]

My Lords, what assessment have the Government made of China’s intentions to act aggressively in a military sense in the western Pacific? Do they agree that it is highly likely to come very shortly? What are we doing about it?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, we take the issues of freedom of navigation on the high seas extremely seriously. These were raised with China by the Foreign Secretary, and we made our position on these issues very clear.

South Asia: Minority Faith Communities

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Monday 28th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon, for securing this debate on such an important topic. In the light of his heartfelt introduction, I pay tribute to his previous leadership and activism on this agenda, including but not only when he was a Minister at the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office.

I thank all noble Lords for their insightful and heartfelt contributions. This is a topic unlike any other in the portfolio of any Minister; it is something that I think we all feel to our fingertips. Freedom of religion or belief is something that, as the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, closed with, we enjoy in this country, and we are grateful for that. It is a right that we wish to see extended across the globe, but, sadly, the situation—and not just in south Asia, as the noble Lord pointed out—is not a good one.

The Pew Research Center’s latest study revealed that global government restrictions on religion hit a new high two years ago. This is why we must continue to champion freedom of religion or belief—or FoRB, as we call it—for all, and challenge threats to it wherever they occur, including in south Asia.

Given the devastating ongoing conflicts around the world today, respecting freedom of religion or belief and promoting interreligious dialogue can build trust between communities and contribute to securing sustainable peace. That is the work that we wish to see extended everywhere we can. However, as noble Lords have made clear through their contributions, sadly that is lacking in too many places today.

Across south Asia, many countries have seen a rise in incidents of violence and discrimination directed towards minority communities. This is deeply concerning. We have heard today examples and stories of hideous abuses. In Pakistan, in addition to the accounts we have heard from noble Lords, there have been at least four targeted killings of Ahmadi Muslims this year alone. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Sahota, for sharing his family’s experience of Sikh communities in Pakistan; his insights are of great value to this House.

In September, in Pakistan, two men were killed by law enforcement officers in separate incidents of violence relating to allegations of blasphemy. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Newcastle and the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, raised the blasphemy laws, and we are grateful to them for bringing them to our attention. As noble Lords may know, in May, a large mob violently assaulted a Christian man and his family in Punjab, on accusations of blasphemy. An elderly man died in hospital a week later as a result of his injuries. Elsewhere in south Asia, recently enacted and proposed legislation in Sri Lanka risks limiting fundamental freedoms too. Sadly, the list of examples is far too long.

The situation is troubling, to say the least. The noble Lord, Lord Callanan, pointed us in the direction of data from the Pew Research Center. He told us that three of the 19 countries that scored very high on the Government Restrictions Index are in south Asia: Afghanistan, Pakistan and the Maldives. He also told us that three of the seven countries that scored very high on the Social Hostilities Index are in south Asia: India, Afghanistan and Pakistan. We can see that Pakistan and Afghanistan are among the four countries globally classified as having among the highest levels of both government restriction and social hostilities involving religion.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sugg, asked me to offer her some hope on Afghanistan. I am not sure that I am able to do that this evening, and she will understand why, but I am grateful to her, as I am sure all noble Lords are, for bringing her concerns to the debate this evening. She rightly asked me about women and girls. We know that in conflict and religious persecution it is often women and girls who bear the brunt. I reassure her that the programmes we have on gender-based violence and raising awareness of the harms of early and forced marriage are continuing. I hope that we can continue to have her support for those.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sugg, asked about the Bishop of Truro and his work. The Bishop of Truro’s 2019 review provided recommendations for FCDO support for freedom of religion or belief. In 2022, as she will know, an independent review assessing the department’s implementation of the recommendations was largely positive. I think some of the credit for that may go to the noble Baroness—I am not sure—and certainly to the noble Lord. With this concluded, we are going to look ahead to build on it and on the work that the previous Government did in this area.

Recognising that human rights are universal, indivisible, interdependent and interrelated, this Government continue to champion freedom of religion or belief for all, across the world. It is our firm belief that no one should live in fear because of what they do or do not believe in. Across south Asia, the UK is taking action. The Government regularly raise the importance of religious tolerance and freedom of religion or belief, including at the highest levels. To give just one example, Minister Falconer recently underlined its importance when he met Pakistan’s human rights Minister in September.

Through our programmes, we are directly supporting communities and affected populations and addressing drivers. In Sri Lanka, the UK Integrated Security Fund is working to strengthen social cohesion, countering hate speech and, which is also important, documenting cases of intimidation and attacks against religious minorities. In Pakistan, our accountability, inclusion and reducing modern slavery programme supports policy development and community empowerment to protect marginalised groups. Bringing together community and faith leaders, it promotes interfaith harmony and has reached over 35 million people with information and awareness about rights and government services. The John Bunyan Fund continues to support projects around the world that specifically aim to protect and promote freedom of religion or belief.

Listening to and, when we can, championing the voices of affected communities remains for this Government, as for the last, of the utmost importance. In India, the British High Commission in New Delhi and our network of deputy high commissioners across the country regularly meet religious representatives and have run projects supporting human rights. We have hosted ministerial level round-table discussions with various religious representatives.

I was asked by the noble Lords, Lord Ahmad and Lord Jackson, about Manipur. The situation is incredibly serious, as the noble Lord, Lord Jackson said; it is complex, and we understand that. We are going to continue to monitor it very closely through our deputy high commissioner in Kolkata. It is appropriate to say that we send our deepest condolences to all those affected. I commit that we will continue to raise our concerns directly with the Government there, including at ministerial level.

I take this opportunity to reference Nepal. We regularly interact with an interfaith group of different leaders, including representatives of believers in Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, Sikhism, Jainism and Om Shanti religions. We support the Tibetan Buddhist community, who face discrimination, and ensure that that is visible and impactful.

Noble Lords referenced Bangladesh. As the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, and others said, there has been a great deal of political upheaval in recent months in Bangladesh. The UK will continue to engage with a wide range of civil society and other stakeholders to understand fully what is happening and their concerns. We will continue to support freedom of religion or belief through our development programmes there.

As noble Lords will know, we also work multilaterally. We are an active member of several alliances working to promote and protect freedom of religion or belief, including the Article 18 alliance. These coalitions of member states work to advance this cause around the world. Just this month we have taken several measures. FCDO officials participated—I take the point that it was not a Minister; I believe it was when the noble Lord, Lord Collins, who has ministerial responsibility for this, was at CHOGM, but ordinarily he would very much have wanted to be there—in the international ministerial conference in Berlin, which was focused on freedom of religion or belief and AI.

We also delivered a statement at the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe conference on freedom of religion or belief and fundamental freedoms, given how crucial human rights are to the organisation’s comprehensive view of security. Last week the UK was pleased to participate in an interactive dialogue with the UN special rapporteur in New York, discussing connections between freedom of religion or belief and peace, which is the focus of her recent report. Earlier this month we co-sponsored a Human Rights Council resolution that extended the mandate of UN special rapporteur Richard Bennett to monitor and report on the human rights situation in Afghanistan, including the situation of minority groups, for another year.

The Whip is coughing at me, but I do not want to sit down without answering the point about the special envoy. Noble Lords will probably notice what I have said the last few times I have been asked about this. Their support for the position is noted. I do not have anything new to add today, but I am sure it will not be long before I have something more to say. I assure noble Lords that the torch from the previous Government has been received and we will continue to carry it forward because it is such an important issue.

Red Sea: Houthi Attacks

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Thursday 24th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord West of Spithead]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to respond to Houthi attacks on global shipping passing through the Bab el-Mandeb straits and Southern Red Sea; and what recent advice has been given to UK flagged merchant ships travelling through that area.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, given that my noble friend is in uniform, I feel underdressed on this occasion.

My noble friend asks a serious Question. UK forces have participated in five joint operations with US forces against Houthi military facilities to degrade their ability to persist with their attacks on international shipping in the Red Sea and the Gulf of Aden. We continue to defend the freedom of navigation, safe passage and British lives at sea. We share with British shipping regular updates containing relevant security information, which support commercial decision-making.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend the Minister for her Answer. I am sure she shares my admiration for our ships that have been involved there in very difficult circumstances and the aircraft that have carried out the attacks.

Having one ship there means that we need three ships. If we put two ships there, we need six ships. This being Trafalgar week, I think of Nelson, who said he would die with “lack of frigates” engraved on his heart. He had 210 frigates in his Navy. Today we have six operational frigates in our Navy. For many years we have been warning that this is the state we would get to. Looking to the future, ships are being built but very slowly. Can the Government speed up the rate? For example, the Japanese build a large destroyer in three years. We take eight years to build a small frigate. Can the Government pursue this, to speed up the building rate and get a quicker drum beat?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, as my noble friend would expect, we are committed to making sure that our military, be that on air, land or sea, is adequately equipped and has everything it needs to do its important job. We currently spend around £54 billion on defence and are working hard to get to a point where we can meet our commitment to spending 2.5% on defence.

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is beyond urgent to put global pressure on the parties in the Middle East to bring the conflict to an end, given the devastation, loss of life and instability, as in this case, that it has produced? What action are the Government taking?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The implication of that question is that somehow the behaviour of the Houthis regarding shipping is related to the instability and the war in Israel and Gaza. We do not accept that. The behaviour of the Houthis needs to stop. It is a threat to security and stability more widely in the Middle East. We do not accept the Houthis’ contention that their behaviour is in any way related to the situation in Israel, Lebanon or Gaza.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

My Lords, just to add to that question, will the Minister look at the wider situation regarding the peace agreement in Yemen? Until there is more momentum behind the peace talks in Yemen, this problem in the Red Sea is not going to be solved.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Until the horrendous attacks by Hamas on Israel on 7 October, the peace process was progressing. An envoy was engaged, and it looked as if there may well be some progress. Sadly, that is not the situation that we are in at the moment. We will use every diplomatic lever that we can, in addition to the measures we are taking to defend shipping and prevent further attacks, to bring about stability and de-escalation.

[Lord Beamish (Lab)]

My Lords, one effect of the attacks on shipping in the Red Sea is the increase in maritime insurance premiums. London is a world leader in maritime insurance. What discussions are taking place with the maritime insurance industry to ensure that shipping is insurable?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Clearly, the cost of insurance has been impacted by the activities of the Houthis. We have seen much shipping diverted around the Cape of Good Hope, which takes much longer and is more expensive. We are concerned about this. London is host to the International Maritime Organization, so we play a leading role in international maritime security. We continue to monitor closely the implications of this activity on the cost to shipping, which is one of the reasons why the action we have taken has been so decisive. We will continue to work as hard as we possibly can, using whatever levers are available, to prevent this danger to life and to stability in the region.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, one of the things that affect the security of the Red Sea routes, as we have discussed before, is security in the Horn of Africa. With the current inability of Ukraine to export its grain to that region—it is now almost exclusively going to western Europe—Russia has seized the opportunity to back-fill the provision of that grain to the region and to use food as a political tool to spread its malign influence. What are the UK Government doing to counter Russia’s activities in this regard?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The behaviour of Russia in this instance, as in many others, is deplorable. This shows how interconnected many of these conflicts are, meaning that our response to these issues and the posture that we adopt need to be carefully calibrated so that we work very carefully, consistently and with some effect—although we want to achieve far more to make sure that aid can get into Yemen and that the people of Somalia and Ethiopia get the support they need. The activities of Iran and Russia have been devastating to the lives of many people living in those countries.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My Lords, I think we all wish to commend the professionalism of our Royal Navy personnel, so evident in this part of the world. In particular, HMS “Diamond” has been protecting shipping in the Red Sea. She called in a couple of weeks ago to refuel at Diego Garcia. Can the Minister confirm that the recent transfer of sovereignty of BIOT to Mauritius will not in any way obstruct the ability of the United Kingdom to protect UK-flagged merchant shipping in the region?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Absolutely. I am happy to provide that assurance, particularly since, as I am sure the noble Baroness is aware, the Houthis have made statements on wishing to extend their activities into the Indian Ocean. She is completely right to raise that, and I can provide the assurance she seeks.

[Lord Turnberg (Lab)]

My Lords, the Houthis have cast the United Kingdom as one of their enemies. People have been marching on the streets of Britain disgracefully supporting that. Will the UK Government proscribe the Houthis now?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We are doing everything we can to de-escalate the situation. We do not seek a conflict with the Houthis. We have had to take military action to respond to the threats to shipping, including to British vessels, and we will continue to do that as we need to. Everything we do is with the aim of de-escalation, not least because that is what the people of Yemen need. They are experiencing extreme hunger. We need to be able to keep getting the aid into the north of Yemen for the sake of those people.

[Lord Geddes (Con)]

My Lords, can UK-flagged merchant ships be armed if the owners, captain and crew agree?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Regarding decisions on maritime security, we have constant conversations with those responsible for shipping and give advice on security. We have not advised shipping to divert away from this route, but clearly those responsible are making decisions for themselves. We have seen a large number of vessels divert around the Cape of Good Hope, for obvious reasons.

[Lord Sandhurst (Con)]

I thought the question was about arming vessels, not the route they took. Can the Minister answer that, please?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The answer I provided may not be the one that noble Lords opposite wanted to hear but, none the less, it is my answer. We work closely with those who are responsible for maritime security and for shipping. I think that is what a responsible Government would do. That is as far as I will go today.

Ukraine: North Korean Troops

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd October 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, it is highly likely that the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea has begun to send troops to Russia. This is a deeply concerning development that risks prolonging the war and augments DPRK’s already significant support to Russia, including munitions and arms that are being used by Russia in its illegal war against Ukraine. This further illustrates Russia’s growing reliance on third-country support and the deepening military co-operation between Russia and DPRK, which has security implications for Europe, the Indo-Pacific and the wider world.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, I doubt anybody in NATO would wish to see a shooting war with Russia, far less, God forbid, a nuclear conflict. The aggressor, Putin, threatens the West throughout with dire consequences unknown if there is any escalation of the war, yet he is now apparently bringing in thousands of North Korean troops to assist him, from an ally in the axis of evil. Putin is already waging war against the West. In the UK, Litvinenko was murdered 18 years ago, we had the Salisbury poisonings and only last month we had the warning from Ken McCallum of MI5 about Putin’s intention to disrupt British life. Will the Minister please go back to her colleagues in the department so that we can further assist Ukraine in defeating the aggressor? In particular, will she lobby for allowing Storm Shadow missiles and other weaponry to be used for attacks on Russia, because the best way to maintain peace in Europe is to defeat the aggressor, Putin?

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

Before my noble friend responds, this is called Question Time for a reason. We want short, sharp questions.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I am grateful to my noble friend the Chief Whip. With absolute respect for the long experience of the noble Lord, Lord Robathan, and the conviction and passion that he brings to his question, there were several points in there. We have discussed Storm Shadow at length in this Chamber. The only person who benefits from us discussing it in this way is Vladimir Putin. I will not say any more than what I have already said on Storm Shadow, but I absolutely agree with the noble Lord that this is further evidence of Russia’s hypocrisy, as he alluded to, its recklessness and its absolute disregard for international peace and security.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, we read and hear a lot about the military pressure Russia is exerting on Ukraine, but are not the increasing numbers of North Koreans involved in the conflict, along with the widening of the pool of prisoners from which Russia seeks to recruit soldiers, evidence that the pressure is far from one-sided? Does this not underscore the importance of sustained resolve on the part of the West?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The noble and gallant Lord is correct, and that is what we will have. We have gone over this ground very many times, but it is always worth repeating that the defence of Ukraine is the defence of Europe. The consequence of the West doing anything other than showing the resolve that the noble and gallant Lord recommends would be to send a deeply worrying message that we fail to stand up to aggressors such as Putin. That must never, ever be something we can tolerate. We stand united in this House, in the country and with our allies.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, part of the pernicious relationship between North Korea and Russia is the supply of military equipment, but the disturbing BRICS summit, which many of our trading allies are currently attending with Putin, means that there are too many countries supplying component parts that can be channelled through North Korea and end up being used on the battlefields of Ukraine against our ally. Will the Minister ask the Office of Trade Sanctions Implementation—a new development that we welcome —to be proactive in ensuring that component parts for military equipment from our trading allies do not end up in Ukraine, and to look at widening our trade sanctions?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Our sanctions regime and the legislation that surrounds it apply to any UK entity, be that in the UK or worldwide, as the noble Lord knows. We will speak to anyone we need to, using any appropriate channels, to try to dissuade others from supplying Russia through whatever means. All anybody supplying Russia with munitions, troops or anything else serves to do, whether they are an ally of ours or not, is prolong this illegal war and the suffering of the people of Ukraine.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My Lords, we on this side stand united with the noble Baroness and the Government in our support for Ukraine. Yesterday, it was reported in the Daily Telegraph that South Korea could send lethal weapons to Ukraine after North Korean troops land in Russia. Could she therefore confirm whether the Foreign Secretary was privy to any conversations during his recent visit to South Korea about whether it will provide support to Ukraine?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary recently spoke with his counterparts in South Korea and, indeed, in China. Noble Lords can rest assured that he raised at the highest level all the issues we would want him to raise regarding Russia, Ukraine and China.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, will the Minister confirm that if North Korean troops were deployed in Ukraine or North Korean materiel were passed to Russia, that would be a breach of UN Security Council resolutions for which Russia voted in favour?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

It would clearly be a breach. It is deeply concerning, and the most recent reports seem to indicate that it is highly likely, hence the deep concern we are expressing at the moment.

[Lord Houghton of Richmond (CB)]

The effective control of escalation in this conflict appears to be vital. Can the Minister in any way reassure the House that we are a fundamental part of some international mechanism that assesses escalation risk?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Everything we have done has been with a view to avoiding escalation, because that is the last thing we want to see. However, the reports we have had in recent days are a significant step, and we are deeply concerned. So, our approach will be to discuss the implications of this closely with our partners, as noble Lords would expect.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

Will the Minister please reflect on two points made this week at the All-Party Parliamentary Group on North Korea, which I co-chair? The first was that the young soldier who walked across a minefield in August is representative of many North Koreans who would like to escape from that tyranny. Can we reach over the heads of their armed forces commanders and make sure that they receive messages in Korean, so they know that they are entitled to take up Korean citizenship in the Republic of Korea should they defect? The second point concerns the United Nations commission of inquiry report 10 years ago. It found crimes against humanity by the North Korean regime and called for a referral to the International Criminal Court. That has never been done. When is the United Kingdom going to raise this?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I will give consideration to the last point the noble Lord raised, which is very important. On his point about the young Korean soldier, we have known for a long time that the people of North Korea are not masters of their own destiny and do not make their choices freely and willingly. It is desperately sad that we now seem likely to see further decisions made on their behalf, but not in their interests.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

Does the Minister agree that this very serious recent development reinforces the importance of the UK’s programme for training Ukraine’s troops? Will she give the House an update on that programme?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The noble Lord is right: this is an important contribution that we make and will continue to make. It sits alongside measures announced yesterday—the £2.6 billion additional funding for Ukraine, to be supported by interest on seized Russian assets, alongside the £3 billion per year that the UK has committed to for as long as Ukraine needs it.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister said in her initial Answer that she thought that the deployment of North Korean troops would prolong the war. When does she think this war is going to end, with or without the North Koreans?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, I only wish I had the answer to that. All I can say is that the way this war ends and the circumstances in which it concludes must be and can only be the decision of the people of Ukraine.

Russia (Sanctions) (EU Exit) (Amendment) (No. 4) Regulations 2024

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd October 2024 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington]

That the Regulations laid before the House on 5 and 12 September be approved.

Relevant document: 3rd Report from Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. Considered in Grand Committee on 21 October.

Motions agreed.

St Helena: UK Immigration

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd October 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, the following Statement was made in the House of Commons on Monday 21 October:

“The House is aware that a political agreement has been reached with Mauritius about the long-term future of the British Indian Ocean Territory. Once any treaty with Mauritius comes into force, following its proper parliamentary scrutiny, Mauritius will be responsible for any migrants who arrive there. However, we needed to find an interim contingency solution for the period before that agreement comes into force. Given that there is no permanent population, BIOT has never been an appropriate long-term location for migrants due to the logistical challenges of providing appropriate care in such a remote place without civilian infrastructure.

On 15 October, a new memorandum of understanding was reached with the Government of St Helena so that any new migrants arriving in the interim period will be transferred to St Helena. The intention is for that agreement to last until the treaty with Mauritius comes into force, recalling that, in practice, no new migrants have arrived on Diego Garcia since 2022.

We are hugely grateful to the St Helena Government for their assistance. Their Chief Minister has said:

‘This arrangement presents a unique opportunity for a British Overseas Territory to be in a position to assist the UK, and we are pleased to be able to work in close partnership with the UK Government towards a mutually beneficial solution’.


The UK Government have agreed to provide one-off funding of £6.65 million to St Helena to improve health and education outcomes, and upgrade government infrastructure. This is consistent with our long-term support to the community in St Helena, which is of course crucial. This is a long-term, consistent partnership. We will support St Helena by providing technical support and funding the transfer and subsistence costs for any migrants affected. Of course, this is not the first time that St Helena has supported the wider UK family. The agreement is testament to its integral place in our family. We thank it for its support”.

[The Earl of Courtown (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. As noble Lords will remember, the previous Government were often criticised, sometimes justifiably, for making announcements in the media as opposed to making them to Parliament. It was therefore disappointing to see that this announcement was made by briefing to the media before Parliament was briefed on it.

As the noble Baroness said, an agreement was reached with the Government of St Helena. Does that mean that it was reached with the entire Legislative Council of St Helena and the residents who will be affected by this policy? Can the Minister say whether the Government are now in favour of offshoring asylum seekers while their applications are processed?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

As to whether the agreement was reached with the entire Legislative Council, we respect the democratic autonomy of St Helena. It is for St Helena to determine what consultation or engagement it wishes to have; it is not for the UK Government to take those decisions on behalf of St Helena, which has the right to take them and has chosen to handle this in this way. The Minister from St Helena’s comment is very clear.

On offshoring, I think the noble Earl is trying to probe how this may or may not relate to the previous Government’s Rwanda programme. Noble Lords will recall that that programme cost £700 million and returned four migrants, voluntarily.

[Lord German (LD)]

My Lords, it is good news that the Government have reached an agreement with Mauritius in principle, although there are of course still concerns about the involvement of the Chagossians in the process. Will any migrant who gets to these territories and is then transferred to St Helena have an opportunity to apply for asylum in this country, given the role we are playing in the interim period before Mauritius takes over its responsibilities? Will the Mauritius agreement be subject to scrutiny by the International Agreements Committee of this House? If so, when is it likely to come before us? Will the Tamil asylum seekers, who were kept in awful conditions on Diego Garcia without a solution being found until recently, be able to seek asylum in this country, even though they may have to transfer elsewhere in the interim? If so, what will be the timescale?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

These are theoretical migrants, as no migrants would be subject to the new agreement with St Helena. It is not an international agreement in the same way that our agreement with Mauritius is; it is an agreement with one of our overseas territories, so it is slightly different. In the very unlikely event that any new migrants arrive in the Chagos Islands, they would be removed to St Helena and it would be for St Helena to process them and make any decisions about their status. It is our position that Diego Garcia is not a suitable place for the current migrants; most have left, as we discussed a couple of weeks ago. They will not be subject to this agreement and will be dealt with separately.

[Baroness Hooper (Con)]

As I was recently in St Helena at a Commonwealth small islands conference, I was shocked to hear about this development. The education, health and other facilities for the small population of the island will be severely stretched. Can the Minister give us some idea of the numbers envisaged and the timescales, given the remoteness of St Helena and the transport difficulties?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I shall endeavour to reassure the noble Baroness, whose care for St Helena is clear in her question. Our hope is that no migrants arrive in the Chagos Islands during the 18 months that this agreement will be in place—it is either for 18 months or until the agreement with Mauritius is ratified, whichever is sooner. We hope that it is much sooner than 18 months and that nobody arrives and needs to be taken to St Helena. However, the noble Baroness is right to say that, regardless of any new migrants, St Helenians face health and education support challenges, and we are providing them with £7 million for that. We would also pay for the transport and subsistence of any new migrants, so we think this agreement is good for St Helena, which is why it has welcomed it so warmly.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

My Lords, this is a substantial amount of money. Does the Minister agree with me that it could be much better spent on a comprehensive feasibility study of the practicalities of resettling the Chagossians on the outer islands? If that was successful and worked, surely the Sri Lankans currently on Diego Garcia could go to the outer islands.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The noble Lord rightly says that £6.65 million is a lot of money, but I point out that the previous Government were spending £50 million every year on housing those migrants on Diego Garcia. We think that that is not an appropriate place for them to be, and we are going to work to make sure that they are more appropriately dealt with.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I agree with the Minister that Diego Garcia is not an appropriate place to house migrants; indeed, there were returns of Sri Lankans to Sri Lanka. But under the agreement, if people arrive during the 18-month period, what happens to those who are rejected for asylum after the processing takes place on St Helena? Secondly, will those who are entitled to claim asylum in St Helena be granted the same entry rights that St Helena’s residents are to enter the United Kingdom?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

It is important to note that there would be no automatic right to entry rights or citizenship. It is for the Helenian Government to make a determination about anybody who arrives and facilitate their removal.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

How will people be physically removed? How will they get to St Helena? Is accommodation being provided for them on St Helena on their arrival?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Again, we are not anticipating migrants arriving, and this is very much a contingency measure. But should that happen, transport would be provided and they would be accommodated, in line with all the obligations anyone would expect in terms of decency, far better on St Helena, where there is a civilian population and healthcare and education facilities. It is far better there than on BIOT, where no such facilities were available.

Russia (Sanctions) (EU Exit) (Amendment) (No. 4) Regulations 2024

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Monday 21st October 2024 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Russia (Sanctions) (EU Exit) (Amendment) (No. 4) Regulations 2024.

Relevant document: 3rd Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, these regulations amend the Russia (Sanctions) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019. This instrument was laid on 5 September under powers in the Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Act 2018, and the measures in it entered into force on 6 September as “made affirmative” measures.

In recent years, the UK has transformed its use of sanctions. We have deployed them in innovative and impactful ways, including in our response to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. This includes our prohibitions on the legal sector. We take a rigorous approach that is carefully targeted to deter and disrupt malign behaviour, as well as to demonstrate our defence of international norms.

In June 2023, a prohibition on legal advisory services, Regulation 54D, was introduced to prevent UK lawyers providing their services to those seeking to continue trading with Russia in goods or services that the UK had sanctioned. This was a unique prohibition that sought to prevent access to our world-renowned legal services market while retaining and upholding the UK values of access to justice and representational advice. Once introduced, it became clear that the sanction had the unintended effect of preventing the legitimate provision of advice on non-UK sanctions compliance, for instance in advising companies on compliance with US or EU sanctions on Russia. A general licence was therefore rapidly implemented in August 2023 as a temporary fix to enable UK lawyers to continue to provide this advice.

This instrument provides the permanent solution and clarifies in legislation the kinds of legal advice that the Government intend UK lawyers to be able to continue to provide. For example, it ensures that advice can be given on compliance with non-UK sanctions, on Russian counter-sanctions and on global criminal law. Receiving this advice is paramount to the functioning of an effective international sanctions response to Russia.

In amending this legislation, a full and thorough review was undertaken, including engaging with esteemed stakeholders in the legal and financial sectors. This engagement has assured us that this amendment will ensure greater clarity for the sector and continue to support our robust and unwavering commitment to cutting off access to our world-leading legal sector from those wishing to advance the interests of Russia.

The review also highlighted a number of other areas for improvement, which have been reflected in this instrument. They include amending Regulation 54D to align more closely with the way the existing circumvention regulations work, creating greater parity between legal advisory services that can be provided to a UK person and a non-UK person. The amendment clarifies expressly that Regulation 54D covers activity outside the UK, meaning that it more clearly operates alongside the existing circumvention regulations and avoids overlapping offences.

We have worked with the sector to ensure that the language in the instrument is as clear as possible regarding the provision of its services. By ensuring that legal advice can continue to be provided for the purposes of non-UK sanctions compliance, we enhance the effectiveness of the sanctions that the UK and our allies have placed on Russia and intensify the pressure on Putin. As well as ensuring that advice can be given on compliance with non-UK sanctions and on Russian countersanctions, we have ensured that advice can continue to be provided on compliance with global criminal law. By protecting the fundamental right to legal representation, we continue to distinguish ourselves from Putin’s oppressive regime.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My Lords, I too can be brief. These are of course updates and clarifications of sanctions introduced by the previous Government. We were grateful for the support of the Opposition then and, on behalf of the Opposition now, I offer my full support for the changes that the Minister announced. It is important that we maintain the principle of unity across the parties in support of these sanctions and of Ukraine, taking action wherever possible to restrict Russia and its activities across the world. We need to be mindful of the big role that the City of London plays across the world in legal, financial and professional services. Some UK companies are undoubtedly involved in helping the Russians to circumvent these sanctions. We fully support the strictest clampdown on these activities. We should be very proud of these industries, but they should be used for right, not for helping Russia in this regard.

Following the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, I offer my support for the letter from Sir Iain Duncan Smith to the Foreign Secretary. We support these sanctions but ask the Government to look again at what more can be done to clamp down on the shadow fleet of tankers that Russia is using to spread its oil and gas around the world. As the noble Lord said, I do not expect the Minister to reply now to a letter that was sent only today and probably has not been received yet, but I hope that the Government can bear this in mind and can possibly give us an answer on Friday. We fully support these sanctions.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the support of the noble Lords, Lord Purvis and Lord Callanan. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, in particular, for his ongoing—I will put it that way—interest in this issue. I very much welcome the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, on how vital it is that we keep our unity on these issues intact as we move forward. I am grateful and pleased that this is what we have seen today.

On the specific issue about the natural gas tankers, I am grateful to both noble Lords for their forbearance, as I do not have a full response on this today. The insurance is a complex issue. I will endeavour to get a fuller response by Friday. That is not a guarantee but, if I cannot get it by Friday, we will make sure that there is a response to the letter from Mr Duncan Smith.

I will do what I believe is called a pivot, to liquified natural gas more generally. I point out—because it is quite interesting and helpful, although it does not address the issue of insurance head-on—that Novatek, Russia’s largest producer of LNG, suspended production at its flagship Arctic project in April 2024 because of sanctions and a shortage of specialist tankers. This project is critical to Russia’s ambition to triple LNG production by the end of the decade, so we are taking measures that are having some effect on LNG. However, I will come back to noble Lords on the wider issue of insurance.

Motion agreed.

Iran (Sanctions) (Amendment) Regulations 2024

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Monday 21st October 2024 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Iran (Sanctions) (Amendment) Regulations 2024.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, these regulations amend the Iran (Sanctions) Regulations 2023. The instrument was laid before Parliament on 12 September under powers contained in the Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Act 2018. The measures entered into force the following day.

The UK has transformed its use of sanctions. We have deployed sanctions in innovative and impactful ways, including in our response to the threat from the Iranian regime. This instrument contains measures to deter the Government of Iran from causing regional and international instability by disrupting their unmanned aerial vehicles—UAVs—and missile industries, and their access to items critical to military development.

The Iranian regime’s development and proliferation of large volumes of advanced conventional weapons, including UAVs and missiles, continues to destabilise the Middle East and prolong Russia’s illegal war in Ukraine. Iran’s use of an unprecedented number of UAVs and missiles during its attack on Israel on 13 April 2024 demonstrated how Iranian weapons development and proliferation is fuelling conflict in the Middle East. The Iranian regime also used hundreds of these arms in its attack on Israel on 1 October, which we condemn in the strongest terms. This attack once more endangered the lives of innocent civilians and escalated an already incredibly dangerous situation. It cannot be tolerated.

In response to Iran’s attack on Israel on 1 October, the UK has designated nine individuals and entities involved in facilitating Iran’s destabilising activity. These include senior military figures and the Iranian Space Agency, which develops technologies that have applications in ballistic missile development. We are deeply concerned about the prospect of further escalation. All efforts must now be on breaking the cycle of violence. At this moment, when tensions are at a peak, calmer heads must prevail. All sides must take immediate steps to de-escalate. A regional war is in no one’s interest.

This is the latest in a long history of Iran destabilising the region, including through its political, financial and military support for its proxies and partners, such as Hezbollah, Hamas, the Houthis and aligned militia groups in Iraq and Syria. We have been clear that Iran must cease this support.

Iran is now one of Russia’s top military backers; it has supplied Russia with hundreds of UAVs since 2022. Russia has used these to target Ukraine’s critical infrastructure and kill innocent civilians, prolonging the suffering of the Ukrainian people. In September, Iran also supplied Russia with hundreds of close-range ballistic missiles. This is a further escalation of Iran’s military support to Russia’s war of aggression against Ukraine and will further enable Russia’s invasion. In return, Iran is receiving Russian military and technological support, enabling it to further develop its military capabilities and enhancing the risk that it poses to the region and beyond.

This legislation expands the UK’s trade sanctions against Iran with the aim of disrupting its UAV and missile industry, as well as its access to items critical to military development. It includes sanctions in relation to items on the Russia common high-priority list. This list was jointly agreed by the UK, the EU, the US and Japan in the context of Russia’s war against Ukraine. It identifies items that Russia is using in its weapons systems, ranging from semiconductors to machine tools.

These items are also significant in Iran’s production of advanced conventional weapons. As the Committee will know, there have been many public reports about Iran’s supply of weapons to Russia. We are therefore prohibiting the export, supply, delivery and making available of these items to Iran through the measures in this instrument. We are also prohibiting the provision of ancillary services associated with the goods, such as brokering services, technical assistance, financial services and funds.

All of the items prohibited by the EU in May have been prohibited by this instrument. In addition, prohibitions will also be applied to some items identified by the Ministry of Defence as significant to Iran’s UAV and missile industries. These trade restrictions complement our existing export controls and sanctions, ensuring that no UK business or person, wherever they are in the world, can facilitate the export, transfer, supply, delivery or making available of these items to Iran without the appropriate licence.

Finally, this Government are committed to enforcement. It is right that we ensure that we have the necessary powers, tools and capacity to implement and enforce our sanctions regimes effectively. That is why, on 10 October, we launched the Office of Trade Sanctions Implementation, with enhanced civil enforcement powers, in order to maximise the impact of the UK’s trade sanctions against Russia. These powers include the abilities to issue civil monetary penalties for breaches and to make details of breaches public. There are also new reporting requirements on sectors well positioned to find evidence of trade sanctions breaches.

To conclude, these new regulations will increase the pressure on Iran’s defence industry. They will disrupt Iran’s production of UAVs and missiles that could be supplied to its proxies in the Middle East or to Russia. We will continue to work with like-minded partners to disrupt, deter and respond to threats from the Iranian regime and to co-ordinate sanctions action. These regulations send a clear message to the Government of Iran and those seeking to harm the UK’s security, as well as that of our partners: we will not stand idle in the face of this aggression. I beg to move.

[Lord Polak (Con)]

My Lords, I totally support these regulations and agree with every word that the Minister has just spoken. The Iran regime is the problem, not the Iranian people. I remind the Committee that two Members of your Lordships’ House are proscribed by the Iranians: me and the noble Lord, Lord Alton, to whom the Minister referred.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I thank the Minister for her kind introduction to this subject. We also fully support these regulations on drones, broader drone technology, financial services, funds and brokering services related to other items of strategic concern; of course, they are one piece of a much larger jigsaw. The Minister commented on the impact of Iran in our previous debate on Russian aggression in Ukraine.

Both the other noble Lords who have spoken outlined graphically how actively and malevolently Iran is undermining the international order through its support for Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis. While it is tempting to think that these are faraway conflicts, any action by the Houthis in the Gulf has the potential to undermine international shipments of oil, gas and other important commodities, which can affect the economy and well-being of this country. Therefore, it is right that we are targeting further the Iranian regime. We fully support these sanctions.

I lend my support to the point made by my noble friend on the proscription of the IRGC. It is strange that so many Conservative Ministers and MPs were in favour of proscription but never managed to get it through the Foreign Office bureaucracy and now so many Labour Ministers and MP who were previously in favour of proscriptions also do not manage to get it through the FCDO bureaucracy. It makes you wonder whether “Yes Minister” was a commentary or a documentary indicating the true state of affairs with the standing bureaucracy in this country. I know that this is difficult, but political will must win over bureaucratic will. I hope that the Minister can influence the Foreign Secretary to return to his previous views and hers and those of her ministerial colleagues and finally proscribe the IRGC. That would meet with widespread support across both Houses of Parliament and from me and many of my noble friends.

We support the sanctions and hope that the Government have success in implementing them.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, I again thank noble Lords for their contributions and support for these measures.

On the IRGC, I note the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, about the frustrations of political life and government. That is all I will say on that line of inquiry. We have already sanctioned the IRGC in its entirety. The separate list of terrorist organisation proscriptions is, as noble Lords know, kept actively under review. We do not routinely comment on whether an organisation is or is not under consideration for proscription. I will leave that there for today.

The noble Lord, Lord Purvis, makes an important point on Sudan. I will write to him about Sudan, but I point out that when sanctions are applied to Iran, they will affect Iran’s ability to supply Sudan as much as it would Russia. That will be the intention. On the issue of personal property, we have in minds such things as laptops, phones and other personal items. It would be restricted to that. It is right to flag this issue, and we are aware of it, but we felt it was important to include it.

This will apply to UK entities and individuals overseas and anyone who is in the UK. It will not apply any more widely than that. This is how the UK organises its sanctions, as the noble Lord knows. I know that he has long had a very keen interest in the issue of secondary sanctions and how we might engage with them. That is the situation as embodied in these regulations and with regard to the UK’s policy towards sanctions more generally. If I have missed a point there, which I think I may have done, the noble Lord must feel free to come back and help me out.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

It might be my ignorance about how this operates, as it may well be covered elsewhere. I understand that there will be a prohibition on exporting this equipment, but I am not sure that any of it has end-use certificate requirements. Therefore, how will we know if we are sending it to another country which then immediately ships it to Iran? How is that covered?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I will hopefully improve my note-taking as we go on with this. Brokers would be specifically in breach of sanctions were they to facilitate or knowingly support in any way something ending up with Iran. I hope that helps the noble Lord. If he needs any further information, I would be happy to speak to him about it.

These measures represent a step forward in our capability to restrict Iran’s proliferation of advanced conventional weapons, which continue to fuel conflict in the Middle East and support Russia in its illegal war in Ukraine. The UK Government are firmly committed to using sanctions to hold the Iranian regime to account for its malign activities in the UK and elsewhere. I beg to move.

Motion agreed.

Somaliland

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Thursday 10th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hoey]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what consideration they are giving to recognising Somaliland as an independent nation.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, the UK, alongside others in the international community, does not recognise Somaliland’s unilateral declaration of independence. The settlement of Somaliland’s status is an issue for Somalia, including Somaliland, to decide through a consultative process and dialogue.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer, but does she realise that since 1991 Somaliland has had six democratic elections, observes the rule of law, has religious tolerance and is a haven of piece in that awful area of the Horn of Africa? Why will His Majesty’s Government not recognise that we must support and encourage democracy around the world, particularly in Africa where we give money to some appalling regimes such as Zimbabwe? Surely this is a time for the Government to face up to the fact that, like other countries, such as France, we should recognise Somaliland now.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is right in her strong support for Somaliland, but that does not change our position on the question of recognition of Somaliland as an independent state. She is right, and we have a very long-standing and deep relationship with Somaliland, not least because of the large number of Somalis living here in the UK, but also our support for the port there, for health, education, security and in many other ways. We are very pleased to continue that relationship.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, are we sure that we have got this completely right? I remember 10 years ago at the Foreign Office having to give exactly the same answers about this as the Minister has given now. On reflection, and in totally changed conditions, particularly in the Middle East and in east Africa, surely those new considerations come in. Why do we have to wait for every other nation to recognise and help Somaliland? It is an extremely feisty country, if I might use that word. It is quite well run and passionately pro-British. It would do us enormous help to have a good friend in that very sensitive area, with the Chinese pouring in next door. It makes utter sense for our own foreign policy to think about this positively. Would the Minister take it back to the Foreign Office and ask it to think again?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Well, I am very pleased to provide consistency in the Government’s approach. The UK needs to tread carefully in the Horn of Africa in regard to this, given the situation that the noble Lord has just described. We have strong links; we have a permanent diplomatic presence in Somaliland. But my sense is that it would not be the right thing to do for stability in the wider region to wade in and take such an action at this time.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, given that Ethiopia has recognised Somaliland in return for Red Sea access, and Egypt has signed a military and security defence arrangement with Somalia, and with Ethiopian troops currently in Somalia, I believe caution is justified. The UK was the lead funder for the African Union peacekeeping mission in this area in Somalia against Al-Shabaab. Is it not in the UK’s key strategic interests that we restore the funding for the new mission, whose mandate will be renewed at the end of this year, to ensure that Al-Shabaab does not benefit from the tension and standoff between Somaliland, Somalia, Ethiopia and Egypt?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for reminding us just how complex this situation is. We have to keep in mind where Ethiopia, Egypt, Somalia and Eritrea are—this is somewhere where you do not take rash decisions. We are committed to making sure that the fight to combat Al-Shabaab is taken forward and we will play our role in that, as the noble Lord would expect.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, reinforcing what the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, just said about the importance of keeping the battle against Al-Shabaab at the top of our priorities, and bearing in mind what has already happened in the Horn of Africa—not least in Tigray—are the Government not right to proceed with caution? Can the Minister tell us whether she is in discussion with members of the African Union to discover what their views are about this? Will she also bear in mind that independence in the case of South Sudan has hardly led to peace in that troubled part of the continent?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We are desperately worried about what is happening in South Sudan. Minister Anneliese Dodds has visited there very recently. We will be keeping this at the front of our minds. As I said earlier in the week when these matters were discussed, my noble friend Lord Collins has been in Ethiopia in the last few days, and the noble Lord is right to urge caution and wisdom at all times in this.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, can I also urge caution on this matter? It has wider implications for places like Ukraine. Any decision made here must take into account the wider implications that will remain if a change is made.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The noble Lord has summarised what I have tried to say very well, and I thank him for that.

[The Earl of Courtown (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, for bringing this matter to the attention of the House. It is an important issue. As the Minister said, stability in the region is paramount. She also mentioned the influence of the African Union. We have to take this matter further and encourage dialogue between the parties themselves so that sovereignty can be recognised for Somaliland. Can the Minister comment on ways of persuading the parties to this disagreement to come to the table and come to an agreement?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I thank the noble Earl for the approach he has taken to this topic. It is our role to encourage dialogue, but I do not think it is our role to specify what the outcome should be, so that is the approach that we will continue to take.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, I am deeply concerned about the implications of some of the questions being put to my noble friend. My suspicion is that some Members clearly have an appreciation of just how near war in the Horn of Africa is and how many moving parts are already out of our control. Perhaps the Government could find time for us to have a debate in government time on the Horn of Africa so that people can fully understand just how much on the verge of war this area is and why asking questions in this House that are consistent with our long-term interest in the possibility of stopping a war would help because some of these questions will undermine our attempts to stop the war.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My noble friend makes an important point. He is a far more experienced parliamentarian than me, and I am sure that he is able to navigate the powers that be to enable such an opportunity, which I would very much welcome.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

Is the Minister satisfied that the UK is marshalling its soft power in a sufficiently coherent way to promote stability and combat malign influences throughout the Horn of Africa?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

That is an important question, and I will consider it further. I think we sometimes underestimate the impact soft power can have. We are well placed to act in that way, given our historical links and the community in the UK. If the noble and gallant Lord does not mind, I will take that away and give it further consideration.

British Indian Ocean Territory: Negotiations

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Wednesday 9th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, these Benches believe that the UK has a very special responsibility for the overseas territories and the people who live within them. There should be a fundamental principle that nothing should be decided about them without them. Their participation, and ultimately their consent, is of the greatest importance. I hope that the Minister will agree with that.

It has been interesting to see this suddenly becoming a highly party-political issue. The overseas territories and their sovereignty were not part of a negotiating mandate with the European Union after Brexit, for example. The noble Lord, Lord Callanan, was the Minister at the time. When it came to consideration for the overseas territories and their sovereignty in our key relationship with the European Union, the Falkland Islands were excluded. That has meant that they have been paying £15 million in tariffs to land fishing, critical for not only the economy but the sustainability and the sovereignty of the islands. Therefore, some vessels from the Falkland Islands have to be flagged as Spanish in order to access the single market, something that my party leader, Sir Ed Davey, challenged the Prime Minister on. I hope that we can correct this as a result of the previous Government’s omission with the OTs.

On Gibraltar, the prospect of the EU frontier force, FRONTEX, being at the border entry point into the United Kingdom is a result of the previous Government not including sovereignty of the OTs as part of a negotiation mandate. Both the Falkland Islands Government and the Gibraltar Government warned the previous Government of the consequences, and now this Government have to correct those errors.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sugg, said yesterday that the issue of the Chagos Islands’ sovereignty was a non-starter. It apparently took 11 rounds of negotiations for the previous Government to decide that it was a non-starter before the general election. A cynic might think that the previous Government knew that there would have to be some tough decisions on the Falklands for fishing, Gibraltar for EU security and Chagos for international law and thought that this was probably best left to their successors in government.

The Minister said yesterday in response to my question that there was not one Chagossian voice. If that were the case, the need for their participation and consent in the process going forward is critical. The House is well aware of my views on the deficiencies of the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act on treaty ratification in previous times. Labour, in opposition, had supported calls for resolutions on potential treaty areas which were of concern for human rights. The previous Government resisted this; I welcome the U-turn of the Conservative Party in now calling for a resolution on a treaty. I tried 17 times to call for Motions on treaties, which were resisted by the previous Government, so I hope that there will be consensus on this.

Perhaps the Minister will respond to some specific points. First, how will the financing with regard to the Chagossians’ relocation work, and what will be the timetable? How will location and relocation mechanisms be put in place and over what timeframe? Finally, regarding the Minister’s reply to me yesterday on primary legislation, what is the extent of that legislation, and will the Government commit to ensuring that the Long Title is sufficiently flexible for there to be scrutiny of the wider impacts? Of course there are geopolitical impacts; therefore, the timing of this decision, the treaty and the legislation, linked with the strategic defence review, are critical, as well as the ability for Parliament to resolve that the voice of the Chagossians will be heard and that consent will be a critical part of it.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Purvis of Tweed and Lord Callanan, for their remarks. The noble Lord, Lord Callanan, asked me to clarify who is right—me or the Foreign Secretary. All I can say is that it certainly is not the noble Lord. I am surprised at the lack of background work that he has been able to do on this topic between yesterday and today, because a few things in his contribution were factually incorrect.

On the reaction of the Americans, President Biden has applauded the statement that we made; he calls the agreement “historic” and says that it

“secures the effective operation of the joint facility on Diego Garcia into the next century”.

I would rather take his assessment of the deal that we have just done than that of the noble Lord, Lord Callanan —with all respect.

On parliamentary scrutiny, as I tried to outline yesterday, but obviously in the context of a Question I perhaps could have gone further, there will be the CRaG process to which the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, referred. There will also be primary legislation, and this will be implementing legislation. I do not know what the Long Title of that legislation will be, but I take on board the comments from the noble Lord, Lord Purvis—but that will be to amend other legislation, which we need to do to implement the treaty. There will be an opportunity between signing and ratifying the treaty for both Houses to debate it.

On funding, we do not disclose the costs of bases overseas. One of the researchers of the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, has found that there are some costings from the MoD on the sovereign base in Cyprus. There are many costs of running a base, but we do not pay for the privilege of running the base in Cyprus—the noble Lord ought to know this. There are additional costs around facilities and other things that we will be able to share, including on the base in Diego Garcia, but the basing costs that we will pay to Mauritius are completely separate. We do not disclose them, and we will not be disclosing them.

The issue of China came up yesterday. I am very sad about this, because when we were in opposition, we took great pride in how we approached issues of foreign policy. There were opportunities to make mischief, but we stood shoulder to shoulder with the Government whenever we could, and it saddens me that in the context of a Conservative leadership contest the opportunity is taken to play fast and loose, to play political games, on some of these issues. Not every concern that is raised falls into that category, but unfortunately some of them have.

Mauritius is not, as some in the Conservative Party have suggested, in hoc to China. It is not part of the belt and road initiative; it is one of only two African countries not to be. It is an ally of India, and India too, as well as the African Union, has welcomed the clarity that this deal provides. The Foreign Secretary will make further announcements on the financial support for Chagossians, which noble Lords were quite right to ask about, when the treaty is signed. That is an important element; it is not about the treaty—it is something that the UK is deciding to do, because they have been shockingly treated for many decades. The sad truth—and this is not something that any of us in this Chamber will be pleased to know—is that those islands are uninhabited but for the military personnel, and in that situation the right to self-determination enjoyed by the Falkland Islanders and Gibraltarians is very different. The circumstances that have led to this are sad and shameful, but that is the situation in which we find ourselves today.

I am very happy to take any questions on this matter, but it is important that we stay focused on the primary purpose of this negotiation—that is, the same thing that drove the last Government to have 11 rounds of negotiation—which is to secure this base, which is really important for security in the Indian Ocean. That is the motivation; it is why we wanted to get the deal done, and it is why the Americans are so pleased that it has been done.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, we now have 20 minutes of Back-Bench questions. To get as many Back-Bench Members in as possible, we need short, succinct and to-the-point questions and not speeches.

[Lord Jay of Ewelme (CB)]

My Lords, I congratulate the Government on reaching this agreement, and I congratulate the last Government on initiating the negotiations for it. They right a long-standing wrong. As the Minister has said, we await the details of the agreement, but can she assure us that the Government will continue discussions and negotiations with the Government of Mauritius about the implementation of the agreement, including the risk of any entryism by China?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

That is an important question from the noble Lord. Yes, the agreement will mean that it will not be possible for other foreign states to operate from the other islands, which has been raised as a concern.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, to cut to the chase, the Government took the only sensible strategic path as regards this decision. To do otherwise, especially in view of the covetous eyes referred to by my noble friend Lord West, would have been to put at risk our control of Diego Garcia and, with that, our national security and defence. It is about time that the previous Government faced up to the reality in opposition —which they faced up to when they were in government, to be fair—and that reality is that the International Court of Justice, by a majority of 13 to one, found that the 1965 secession of these islands from Mauritius was unlawful. Certainly, that was advisory, but it was followed by a decision at the United Nations General Assembly of 116 to six welcoming that judgment, making it extremely likely there would be a further judgment far more stringent than the previous one. So the Government have taken the decision—in my view, a right one—to put the national security and interests of this country before everything else.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My noble friend is completely right. On this issue of the legalities, which I am sure will come up, we had a choice. We could wait for the legal tide to come in still further and have rulings that were binding made against us. In that situation, we would be negotiating from a position of particular weakness, we felt, so it was much better to get ahead and get this deal done before we reached that circumstance.

[Lord Sandhurst (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness has not answered an important question which my noble friend asked. Does the agreement give the United Kingdom an absolute right to extend the lease at the end of the 99 years, or is it just a right to ask for renewal? That is very different. Which is it?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, the treaty will be published very soon, and we will have a chance to properly test it according to the things that are of concern to the noble Lord. I suggest that we wait for the treaty to be scrubbed and printed so that we can all satisfy ourselves about the precise nature of what has been agreed.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, it is very important that this House remembers that both major parties were seriously guilty of the most appalling behaviour towards the Chagossians. When I was a member of the Court of Appeal, under the then Conservative Government, we were not able to help the Chagossians, but we gave a judgment that absolutely excoriated them, quite correctly. But, equally, a Labour Government behaved in exactly the same way. But my question to the Minister is: are the Government satisfied that China is not a real danger?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We are watchful; of course we are. But there is nothing in this treaty, however, that leads us to have the kind of concern that has been alluded to. As I have said, the treaty would prevent not just China but any other foreign nation from undertaking activities on the other islands other than Diego Garcia.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

My Lords, the expulsions were a major blot on our latter colonial history. But those expelled are now living in exile, and many of them are settled and have got used to the countries where they are. Are the Government concerned that there is a certain romanticism about the idea of returning to these islands—particularly for the children and grandchildren who have never seen them and have got used to the good life elsewhere—and that many of those with that romantic view might return only for a brief period before returning to their places of exile?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I think it is very important that we allow Chagossians, whether they are first generation or grandchildren, to decide for themselves how they feel about that. They will have the ability to return and they will also have the ability to visit Diego Garcia. I am reminded of a question from the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, about visits. He probably does not realise, but visits to Diego Garcia were taking place before Covid. There was then a pause and they have not restarted since then, so this is not the first time this has happened. The intention is for visits to Diego Garcia to be able to take place in the future.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, I join others in the congratulations on the partial addressing of this gross humanitarian injustice. I congratulate the previous Government for initiating and the present Government for concluding the treaty. Has the Minister had to deal with completely unnecessary alarm, created in Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands, by the hypocritical noises that have come out of the Opposition Benches? Have the Government been able to completely address those unnecessary concerns?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I have been disappointed, as I said in my earlier remarks. We would not have played political games with the sovereignty of our overseas territories, but we have been able to offer the reassurances that were needed. We have been in close contact with the Governments in both Gibraltar and the Falklands, and I think they understand what is really going on here. I hope we have been able to offer the assurances that the noble Baroness refers to.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, in relation to the lease, will His Majesty’s Government bear in mind that Gan, in the Maldives, is a vital defence dimension, as is Hambantota, in Sri Lanka? Those are both owned, in a sense, by the Chinese, and it is a very dangerous situation if the lease can be broken at any point.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

One of the reasons that it took so long to get this deal over the line was because of concerns such as that, and wanting to make sure that the 99 years are fixed and firm, and it is never up for question in the way that the noble Lord describes. He is quite right to raise those concerns.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

On the security question and the Chinese issue, does the Minister agree that the United States Administration are in quite a good place to assess the security of the base in Diego Garcia? Will she again confirm that they have warmly welcomed the agreement? I was always less diplomatic than the noble Lord, Lord Jay. Would the Minister like to confirm that it takes chutzpah verging on hypocrisy for the Opposition Front Bench, populated by the luminaries of the last Government, to criticise an agreement negotiated with the support and under the supervision of the last two Conservative Foreign Secretaries and approved by the last Conservative Foreign Secretary? For them to criticise it now seems to me to be—well, I will settle for chutzpah.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I have said my piece on what I think of the way the Opposition has been handling this. It is true that President Biden, Secretary Blinken and Secretary Austin have all welcomed this agreement in terms that they really did not need to use if they were not so concerned to see the security of the base at Diego Garcia. I am glad that we have managed to secure the base; it is important for regional, and indeed global, security. I will leave others to reach their own conclusions about the way that the Conservative Party is approaching this.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, leaving aside, as I noted yesterday, the fact that the whole of Diego Garcia will remain out of bounds to Chagossians, the Statement says that Mauritius will now be free to implement a resettlement programme to the other islands. It does not say explicitly that Chagossians will have a right to resettlement. Can my noble friend the Minister now confirm that they will have such a right?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

There will be a right to visit Diego Garcia, and it is important that we recognise that. The details of what Mauritius will agree on the rest of the islands will be included in the treaty. However, at this stage, it is the intention that those islands will be able to be reinhabited by Chagossians if that is what they wish to do.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

The Green Party welcomes the ending, finally, of UK colonialism in Africa, although it regrets deeply that the Chagossian people, who were so shamefully and secretively dispossessed as late as the early 1970s, were not involved in the talks with Mauritius. The UK has benefited over decades from holding on to this colonial possession. Can the Minister assure me that the UK will continue to provide support and resources to Mauritius to protect the magnificent, unique and irreplaceable marine and coastal habitats of the Chagos archipelago after the handover?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The security of the marine conservation area is very important; I think it was Foreign Secretary Miliband who instigated it. We will see it continue, and Mauritius has agreed to that.

[Lord Hannan of Kingsclere (Con)]

My Lords, Mauritius was paid the then immense sum of £3 million in exchange for this agreement in 1965, and treated it as a final settlement. In 1972 it was then paid again, if memory serves, £620,000 for the resettlement of the Chagossians—moneys which I am afraid it hung on to until their value had been eroded by inflation, which may explain why Chagossians are not enthusiastic about Mauritian sovereignty. It does seem extraordinary that we have given away this prime strategic location, the so-called Malta of the Indian Ocean, not only for nothing but somehow managing to pay for the privilege. I think I have heard three or four Ministers today talk about this black hole. Is it really credible, when we are hearing about that, that the Government will not disclose either what we are paying to the Mauritians or what we are putting in the fund for Chagossian resettlement?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I did not say that we would not disclose what we are putting in the fund for Chagossian resettlement; I said that the Foreign Secretary will make a more detailed statement at the time that the treaty is signed. We do not disclose the costs of basing overseas. We do not, and I do not think other nations do, either. We are very clear about that. We do disclose some of the associated costs; the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, mistakenly tried to make an equivalence between the two, but we will not be disclosing the costs of basing.

[Baroness Whitaker (Lab)]

When James Cleverly announced the Conservative Government’s policy of negotiations with Mauritius, one outlying MP, who has since lost his seat, under the banner of the anxiety of a small group among all other Chagossians, asserted that colonial ownership of the so-called British Indian Ocean Territory was better than the decision of concerted international and much British opinion on the rights of this long-running injustice. The agreement preserves the long-standing UK/US base on Diego Garcia. Do the Opposition not want that to be funded? It is mysterious to me why, all of a sudden, this furore has erupted.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The noble Baroness puts it very well and I think she does know why this furore may have erupted. I have said all I need to say about my views on that.

[Lord McDonald of Salford (CB)]

Like other noble Lords, I congratulate the Labour Government on finishing what the Conservative Government started. I will ask the Minister two questions. Would the Mauritian Government pay for any repatriation scheme to the islands, and can the Minister confirm that this treaty is compatible with existing other relevant treaties, such as the Treaty of Pelindaba?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Yes; we are not party to that particular treaty, as the noble Lord probably knows, but we are party to some of its annexes. And I can confirm that this treaty is compatible with all our other international obligations.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister mentioned the Cyprus sovereign bases. Surely the reason why we do not pay rent to Cyprus is that those bases were granted in perpetuity as sovereign base areas. If you lease a base, you pay rent, presumably. Can she tell the House why the Government did not hold out for a similar arrangement with Diego Garcia? Can she also tell the House what will happen if the Government of Mauritius under Pravind Jugnauth fall and they want to reopen the discussions?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The treaty will be legally binding and that is the basis on which we proceed. As to why we did not hold out to get a better deal, there had been quite a lot of holding out and we needed to get this resolved. The noble Lord outlined quite well the difference between Cyprus and the circumstances on Diego Garcia. As he explained— I think he answered his own question—these are very different circumstances.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

My Lords, can I press the Minister further on the response she gave on the Chagos marine protected area? It is one of the world’s largest and richest officially designated areas and my understanding is that its status will be transferred to that of a Mauritius marine protected area, which is not a serious conservation status. The Mauritius Government have got neither the resources nor the expertise—nor indeed the political clout—to protect that area adequately against the adverse fishing impacts that nearly destroyed it until Foreign Secretary Miliband got the protection arrangements for it. Indeed, one of the reasons Mauritius wants access to the Chagos archipelago is in order to recommence fishing. Can the Minister tell us what safeguards are going to be put in place so that we are not regarded by future generations as having handed childcare over to Herod?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I should probably have been clear about this earlier, but the detail will be in the treaty for noble Lords to see for themselves. The UK will be co-operating alongside Mauritius to make sure that the marine protected area is secure.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, on rushing ministerial decisions, when I was first appointed to the Foreign Office in 2017, as the noble Lord, Lord McDonald, will recall, my first meeting was on BIOT, and what the previous Government did was careful consideration in negotiations with Mauritius about what was possible and what was not. And repeatedly it was concluded that the issue of sovereignty was a sticking point for security. My question is a simple one. We engaged at the very top at prime ministerial level on negotiations, so I ask the Minister, what level of negotiation took place before this key decision was taken?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

A fair point. Discussions did take place between our Prime Minister and the Prime Minister in Mauritius.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, it has been refreshing to hear the Minister be quite pragmatic in her explanation about what has occurred. Does she agree that it is unhelpful when some Ministers pose this as some kind of heroic anti-colonial victory? And how does she feel about the fact that Chagossian voices feel as though they have been treated with contempt, especially when their aspirations for self-determination are written off as romantic and naive? There is a sense of betrayal. How will she tackle that?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My feelings are neither here nor there. No Government or political party, including my party, have covered themselves in glory on this issue in recent decades and there is no point pretending otherwise—but find a solution and get a deal we must, and that is what we have done. We have prioritised security and the base, and we have done the best we can to get the right to return for some Chagossians and the right to visit Diego Garcia. This is not a situation that is going to please everybody—that option was not open to us—but we have managed to get the security outcome that we wanted.

[Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister earlier explained that the reason why the Chagossians did not have the right to self-determination was that the islands are uninhabited. That seems to rather ignore the reason for the islands being uninhabited. Surely it is right that the Chagossians should have a meaningful say in their own future in this respect.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I was talking about where we stand legally in that regard, but morally the noble Lord is completely right. The forced removal of the Chagossians at that time was shameful, but we are where we are and we cannot pretend otherwise. But for military personnel, these islands have been uninhabited for a very long time. That does not mean that we should not respect and listen and do the very best we can by the Chagossian communities, whether they are here, in Mauritius or elsewhere—many are in the Seychelles. It is not the outcome that every Chagossian would have wanted, but it is better than the situation that they currently have.