Public Accounts Committee
Monday 7th September 2026
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15:31
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
Welcome to the Public Accounts Committee on Monday, the 7th of September 2026. The Government's Rewiring the State policy paper, published in July of this year, sets out its aim for every area in England to be covered by a strategic authority by the end of 2028. Strategic authorities allow combined authorities to be classified as foundation, strategic authorities or major strategic authorities. Here are in afternoon as MSAs. Eligible MSAs can receive central government funding through a single integrated settlement, bringing together funding from multiple government departments and providing greater local flexibility over spending.
Greater Manchester and West Midlands were the first MSAs to receive an integrated settlement last year, and in April of this year, a further five MSAs began to receive multi-year integrated settlements, which will total 14.8 billion. However, many questions remain about how the government's ambitious plans for devolution will turn into reality, and today we are very grateful to be joined by local authority leaders who we hope can share their thoughts with us, of the insights of working in this area.
Ahead of questioning government officials later this afternoon. If you haven't already heard, it's strongly rumoured that the government is going to delay local government reorganisation and obviously that may or may not have a knock on on strategic authorities, particularly new ones being formed. So anyway, you're very welcome, all of you. Perhaps I could ask you I'm going to use Christian names, if I may, Steve, perhaps to start by introducing yourself, please.
Greater Manchester and West Midlands were the first MSAs to receive an integrated settlement last year, and in April of this year, a further five MSAs began to receive multi-year integrated settlements, which will total 14.8 billion. However, many questions remain about how the government's ambitious plans for devolution will turn into reality, and today we are very grateful to be joined by local authority leaders who we hope can share their thoughts with us, of the insights of working in this area.
Ahead of questioning government officials later this afternoon. If you haven't already heard, it's strongly rumoured that the government is going to delay local government reorganisation and obviously that may or may not have a knock on on strategic authorities, particularly new ones being formed. So anyway, you're very welcome, all of you. Perhaps I could ask you I'm going to use Christian names, if I may, Steve, perhaps to start by introducing yourself, please.
15:33
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Yeah. My name is Steve Rotheram, the metro mayor of the Liverpool City region, formerly of this parish. I was an MP down here for seven years, 2010 to 17, and then myself and somebody who now is familiar to most people called Andy Burnham. He decided to leave here and to try to see whether we could pull the Liverpool City region in Greater Manchester together and get the agglomeration effect and benefits of that.
And I've been elected three times to that post.
And I've been elected three times to that post.
15:33
15:33
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Thank you. Good afternoon everybody. I'm Catherine Faircloth, I'm the chief executive from the Liverpool City Region. I've been there for five years. Prior to that, I was a local government chief executive at Cumbria, and I've had the whole of my career in local government across the North West. It's been a great time to really shape the future of the combined authority alongside Metro Mayor.
15:34
15:34
Blake Stephenson
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Blake Stephenson
15:34
15:34
Michael Payne
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Michael Payne
15:34
15:34
15:35
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15:35
Clive Betts
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Clive Betts
I retired earlier than Steve. I think he's still going. That's right. Stephen. Catherine. The issue of integrated settlements is one of the things that's touted as a real step forward for strategic authorities. So what difference does it actually makes the way you operate? And what more can you do that you couldn't have done without them?
15:35
15:35
15:35
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
So for me, when we first started, we called it devolution. But it was never devolution. It was decentralisation. And what happened was the government decided on a pot of fund for us, for each of those different funding streams, and they told us that we had to spend it in a certain way. With the new process, we get flexibilities around a single pot. So it's obviously an amalgamation of all the different streams that we formerly had.
There's some ability to via between those different funding streams, but also it's the certainty that it provides to us of the one integrated settlement. So we know what we have got to spend year on year, and that's given us a fresh belief, really in proper devolution. And we're doing things now differently than we were doing at the beginning of this experiment.
There's some ability to via between those different funding streams, but also it's the certainty that it provides to us of the one integrated settlement. So we know what we have got to spend year on year, and that's given us a fresh belief, really in proper devolution. And we're doing things now differently than we were doing at the beginning of this experiment.
15:36
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Shall I just come in to add to that? Of course. Would that be okay, please? I think what that's allowed us to do is to unlock growth and to look at the area in the round, rather than through individual funding streams. And if you think about our role in driving productivity and growth, the fact that we can look at both housing, transport and skills alongside of each other, for example, has really helped us to plan better for place even in this early stages. And I think that for us, gives us the confidence, as the mayor has already outlined, that that flexibility will deliver for people on the ground.
15:37
15:37
Clive Betts
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Clive Betts
15:37
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Quite federalism, but I don't think it was ever meant to be that so. But at least there are flexibilities now with the funding and the certainty over three years. That means that we can start to plan for the longer term. So I think that's some of the benefits I face. Clive. There was there was no ability for us to spend it other than the way the government told us what we had to spend it on.
15:38
15:38
Blake Stephenson
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Blake Stephenson
If I may, I think from our perspective, we are now an established authority, but only very recently. And so some of the things we've experienced, what I've experienced since becoming mayor is as Mayor Rotherham has said. So we are told exactly how to spend it, when to spend it by and what to spend it on. When it comes, it comes to certain budgets. So for example, when it comes to skills, we have a very diverse area in Cambridgeshire and Peterborough.
We've got some of the most skilled young people in the entire country, or certainly have the opportunities to be the most skilled young people in the entire country in Cambridge and South Cambridgeshire, whereas the reverse is true in the fence. We really are the most unequal region, if you like, when it comes to skills and opportunities. But we are told exactly how we are supposed to spend that money and on what sort of efforts. So that means that in places like Wisbech or in the Fens, you know, we're not able to actually adapt to the unique challenges that we have around skills.
We try our best. But as I say, we're told exactly what we have to spend, how we spend it on, and when we have to spend it by.
We've got some of the most skilled young people in the entire country, or certainly have the opportunities to be the most skilled young people in the entire country in Cambridge and South Cambridgeshire, whereas the reverse is true in the fence. We really are the most unequal region, if you like, when it comes to skills and opportunities. But we are told exactly how we are supposed to spend that money and on what sort of efforts. So that means that in places like Wisbech or in the Fens, you know, we're not able to actually adapt to the unique challenges that we have around skills.
We try our best. But as I say, we're told exactly what we have to spend, how we spend it on, and when we have to spend it by.
15:39
15:39
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
So if we were to come to government and provide an evidence base and say, we think that we can get some growth in our area by recalibrating where we currently are. So in other words, the skills issue is really important to that. But so is public transport. And so is a whole ecosystem where our universities around how you do that at this moment in time, we haven't got the ability to to draw down additional pots of money over and above what we bid in for what everybody bids in for.
But I'm talking about targeted growth and what we can do now with some of the flexibilities, because we know the certainty of the quantum of funding that we're getting. So if we needed to, we could borrow ahead knowing that there would be a return on that investment that would cover any of the costs and the the sort of inflationary pressures, but also we would get the jobs, we would get the growth, and UK plc would also get the benefit.
But I'm talking about targeted growth and what we can do now with some of the flexibilities, because we know the certainty of the quantum of funding that we're getting. So if we needed to, we could borrow ahead knowing that there would be a return on that investment that would cover any of the costs and the the sort of inflationary pressures, but also we would get the jobs, we would get the growth, and UK plc would also get the benefit.
15:40
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
So I guess what more could we do? So I guess not everything is in the settlement. So it really does focus on things like transport skills and housing, for example. There's very little in the basket of public service reform as things stand at the moment. So there's something about an open mindedness to other funding streams coming into the integrated settlement. And alongside of that, that same flexibility would allow us to join up more connectedly with services for people in the place, as well as the infrastructure for the place, and also about how we simplify some of those funding arrangements that sit outside of the settlement.
We recognise they might not all come in immediately, but how do we start to harmonise and build a common outcomes framework with government to deliver those services?
We recognise they might not all come in immediately, but how do we start to harmonise and build a common outcomes framework with government to deliver those services?
15:41
15:41
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15:41
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I think Paul's hit the nail on the head about skills. So every area had to develop something called skills improvement plan. So we have the evidence which is basically what's the demand on the skills that we are developing and what is our ability then to to respond to the capacity issues, skill shortages, skills gaps for the employment that we're developing. So governments haven't got all of that information. We're the only ones with all of that.
So if we wanted to develop some skills, say for the future under a company that we're trying to attract to invest in the Liverpool City region, then we haven't got the ability to train those people because we've got limited resources around the Fe. Basically, what we do is we fund the stuff that Fe has the capacity to develop, to deliver for us. Well, we might not want those skills in the future. So it's the flexibilities around developing supply and demand.
And we haven't got all of those abilities.
So if we wanted to develop some skills, say for the future under a company that we're trying to attract to invest in the Liverpool City region, then we haven't got the ability to train those people because we've got limited resources around the Fe. Basically, what we do is we fund the stuff that Fe has the capacity to develop, to deliver for us. Well, we might not want those skills in the future. So it's the flexibilities around developing supply and demand.
And we haven't got all of those abilities.
15:42
15:42
Blake Stephenson
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Blake Stephenson
Well the to get an integrated settlement, you have to become what's an established, gained, established status, which we have just recently done, along with York and North Yorkshire and West of England as well. So we've we've just got that. So I anticipate from was it 27, 28 we'll have an integrated settlement and we'll be able to spend it in a in a different way and do lots of things that Mayor Rotherham and Steve Steve has talked about.
So, for example, okay, we would be able to divert 10% of the money we receive in capital to revenue. And you might think, well, why would you do that? Is that not a good thing? The biggest challenge we face as a UN organisation is often capacity. We have to go from an authority, which in the past has perhaps the default has been to passports, you know, money through to constituent councils, to one that's focused on delivery.
For delivery, we need capacity. We need to increase the number of people who work for our organisation, which is only 165, 140 65 was includes the warm the warm homes net zero hub, the greater zero net zero hub. So we have to increase capacity within our organisation to deliver some of these strategic things that the government would expect and establish status authority to do.
So, for example, okay, we would be able to divert 10% of the money we receive in capital to revenue. And you might think, well, why would you do that? Is that not a good thing? The biggest challenge we face as a UN organisation is often capacity. We have to go from an authority, which in the past has perhaps the default has been to passports, you know, money through to constituent councils, to one that's focused on delivery.
For delivery, we need capacity. We need to increase the number of people who work for our organisation, which is only 165, 140 65 was includes the warm the warm homes net zero hub, the greater zero net zero hub. So we have to increase capacity within our organisation to deliver some of these strategic things that the government would expect and establish status authority to do.
15:44
Anna Dixon
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Anna Dixon
Yeah, I think it was sort of covered really. It was really what difference established status is making in terms of those new opportunities. So maybe Paul or Rob, if you would be more specific about what specific new opportunities you'll be driving to deliver for the people of Cambridgeshire and Peterborough must declare I'm a West Yorkshire MP, so I've seen what a good mayor and a strategic combined authority can deliver over as it matured. So I guess thinking ahead, what do you see as new opportunities that you might bring forward?
15:44
Michael Payne
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Michael Payne
Okay. I'll start. I'm sure Mayor Bristow will come in if I've missed anything. So I think from our perspective, obviously there's the integrated settlement, as Paul has outlined. I think there's other things as well. So where there's been the established authorities, there was the local Innovation Partnership Fund. We had to bid with the rest of the country for Cambridgeshire and Peterborough, an area that obviously has quite a lot of exciting innovation.
And, you know, we weren't successful, but in established areas they were allocated the funds, you know, 30 million, 50 million to the combined authority to then work in their area to make that drive, that growth. That's one element that, you know, will be really positive. Equally, we're now part of the right to request process, so we can be thinking much more locally and working with all the mayors in terms of what things would be better if they were devolved more.
And we can start to work that through with partners and stakeholders and businesses in our area. But also, I think there is an element of a reputational piece, I think, about being established. I think when you look at what's happened to strategic authorities across the country, we've talked earlier about West Midlands and Manchester and how they set the trailblazer route many years ago. I think from our perspective, we're now in conversations that we weren't in with the arm's length bodies, like we're, you know, actively with Homes England.
We had a strategic place partnership with Homes England, but pretty much straight away, after getting established status, they want to start working more with their teams embedded in the organisation to help with capacity and delivering of the housing. So I think there's a number of things now and in the framework of the difference between established and just a mayoral combined authority, there's a list of things like more influence on Jobcentre Plus, more influence on the Affordable Homes programme, a number of different things that we couldn't do, which we now can do, and that's what we're working towards.
With the points around capacity, come back to an integrated settlement. The challenge always is the integrated settlement is only the quantum of money that you've got in your area. So we've got a challenge around some aspects of our funding, which is different to all the other strategic authorities, because they're all different, because they all started at different places. So there is something that we need to work up with government in terms of what does the funding envelope need to look like in an integrated settlement, alongside the fiscal devolution conversations that are now actively starting?
And, you know, we weren't successful, but in established areas they were allocated the funds, you know, 30 million, 50 million to the combined authority to then work in their area to make that drive, that growth. That's one element that, you know, will be really positive. Equally, we're now part of the right to request process, so we can be thinking much more locally and working with all the mayors in terms of what things would be better if they were devolved more.
And we can start to work that through with partners and stakeholders and businesses in our area. But also, I think there is an element of a reputational piece, I think, about being established. I think when you look at what's happened to strategic authorities across the country, we've talked earlier about West Midlands and Manchester and how they set the trailblazer route many years ago. I think from our perspective, we're now in conversations that we weren't in with the arm's length bodies, like we're, you know, actively with Homes England.
We had a strategic place partnership with Homes England, but pretty much straight away, after getting established status, they want to start working more with their teams embedded in the organisation to help with capacity and delivering of the housing. So I think there's a number of things now and in the framework of the difference between established and just a mayoral combined authority, there's a list of things like more influence on Jobcentre Plus, more influence on the Affordable Homes programme, a number of different things that we couldn't do, which we now can do, and that's what we're working towards.
With the points around capacity, come back to an integrated settlement. The challenge always is the integrated settlement is only the quantum of money that you've got in your area. So we've got a challenge around some aspects of our funding, which is different to all the other strategic authorities, because they're all different, because they all started at different places. So there is something that we need to work up with government in terms of what does the funding envelope need to look like in an integrated settlement, alongside the fiscal devolution conversations that are now actively starting?
15:47
Anna Dixon
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Anna Dixon
Yeah. Would you wish to undertake as as the mayor, in terms of what new opportunities you hope the population will see? I suppose I'm thinking like in West Yorkshire, you know, something very visible is hopefully a mass transit across West Yorkshire. That was a big priority. And as you say, part of devolution is doing the things that make sense for that place. So again, the industrial priorities of West Yorkshire would be very different in terms of manufacturing industries.
So what are the new opportunities that you hope to deliver through devolution? I mean,
So what are the new opportunities that you hope to deliver through devolution? I mean,
15:47
Blake Stephenson
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Blake Stephenson
I think a lot of the job as a mayor is, is using their convening powers to try and bring pots of money, bring together opportunities and drive them forward. You talked about mass rapid transit in Leeds. That's exactly what we hope to achieve in Cambridge. We've got a new development corporation in Cambridge, which is a little perverse because it's essentially led development corporation. It's a bit perverse because I think we're looking towards more mayoral devolution.
So let's see what happens, you know, in that. But the point of my story is that we are working together on a mass rapid transit system for Cambridge. We've just introduced a a strategic outline business case for it. But some some of the direction of travel around making decisions locally, whether you're established or not, I think can only help with the delivery of projects such as this. Because, you know, if you look at a time frame for something like this, it could take 11 years.
I mean, 11 years is just extraordinary. And just, quite frankly, beyond the willingness of anyone to actually think beyond about four years. So for me, if we get more powers over, twas we get more powers over things like that. We should be able to try and to speed this up. And I think the delivery mechanisms for mayors, it's much more easy to actually go out and try and sell yourself to private capital, to the national wealth bank, to pension funds, and other things that might be able to actually fund big infrastructure projects like this, rather than waiting for central government to think about it, because they've got a million.
And one other things to think about. That's why I think devolution in this way, on a regional level, is the right way forward.
So let's see what happens, you know, in that. But the point of my story is that we are working together on a mass rapid transit system for Cambridge. We've just introduced a a strategic outline business case for it. But some some of the direction of travel around making decisions locally, whether you're established or not, I think can only help with the delivery of projects such as this. Because, you know, if you look at a time frame for something like this, it could take 11 years.
I mean, 11 years is just extraordinary. And just, quite frankly, beyond the willingness of anyone to actually think beyond about four years. So for me, if we get more powers over, twas we get more powers over things like that. We should be able to try and to speed this up. And I think the delivery mechanisms for mayors, it's much more easy to actually go out and try and sell yourself to private capital, to the national wealth bank, to pension funds, and other things that might be able to actually fund big infrastructure projects like this, rather than waiting for central government to think about it, because they've got a million.
And one other things to think about. That's why I think devolution in this way, on a regional level, is the right way forward.
15:49
15:49
Clive Betts
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Clive Betts
Yes. Just coming on to one further look at the future rewiring the state. The government's made its announcement. We still don't know all the details of it. But given that the government may be still thinking about those details, what do you expect to see? The biggest difference to make from we are in this state when it's eventually implemented. You've got your ambitions there as well. Whoever wants to come in first.
15:49
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Leading question. Yes. So myself and Andy wrote a book and that was about rewiring the country. And the idea was to take some of the lessons that we've learned through devolution and to apply them. And demonstrably, the successful bits to ensure that they're embedded. But the other things that we'd seen, which were frustrations, really from the outside of this place, because I know you're all in it.
But honestly, this thing about the Westminster bubble, when you go outside, nobody sees it through the same eyes as you do in here. So there's some truth to that. And that gave us the opportunity really to, to look at how that the, the things within the machinery that slow us down sometimes how you can circumvent them. And so it's a way of speeding things up. I think it's about acceleration. So if I give you one example about beforehand, two, two and a bit years ago under the previous government, we all had to sort of bid in for the same pot of money.
And we knew that there was a very limited number of winners in that because the quantum was small. But there were two things. One, we might have believed that we were unlikely to be successful, but you had to be seen by your electorate to bid in, because if you didn't bid in, then somebody would say to you, well, why haven't you bid in for this money that the government was given away? But it really did spread us very thinly at times.
And you had I think it was eight at the time, eight combined authorities all trying to bid every single time money came out. We bid in for it. Now with integrated settlements, we don't have to do that. And so it releases capacity within all of our authorities to do the things that we want to get on and do. And that's just one instance where it's the rewiring that's the issue, not necessarily the individuals.
But honestly, this thing about the Westminster bubble, when you go outside, nobody sees it through the same eyes as you do in here. So there's some truth to that. And that gave us the opportunity really to, to look at how that the, the things within the machinery that slow us down sometimes how you can circumvent them. And so it's a way of speeding things up. I think it's about acceleration. So if I give you one example about beforehand, two, two and a bit years ago under the previous government, we all had to sort of bid in for the same pot of money.
And we knew that there was a very limited number of winners in that because the quantum was small. But there were two things. One, we might have believed that we were unlikely to be successful, but you had to be seen by your electorate to bid in, because if you didn't bid in, then somebody would say to you, well, why haven't you bid in for this money that the government was given away? But it really did spread us very thinly at times.
And you had I think it was eight at the time, eight combined authorities all trying to bid every single time money came out. We bid in for it. Now with integrated settlements, we don't have to do that. And so it releases capacity within all of our authorities to do the things that we want to get on and do. And that's just one instance where it's the rewiring that's the issue, not necessarily the individuals.
15:51
Blake Stephenson
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Blake Stephenson
I mean, from my perspective, I think it allows us to do the job we were elected to do. Right? What are mayors there for? Mayors are there for to economic growth. Okay. To try and promote economic growth and be ambassadors for your region. You can't effectively do that if you have your hands tied behind your back and only be able to do certain things that government tell you to do when you want to do it.
Certain things such as fiscal devolution, be it a share of locally raised income tax or a share of business rates, even if it's just the growth. Okay. On that basis, A, it does two things. First, it gives us an incentive to really go for growth and make decisions that are going to create economic growth, rather than be looking over our shoulder for short term politics. But secondly, and this is really, really important, if you get a long term revenue stream like that, you can borrow off the back of it, okay.
And then invest locally in what you perceive to be the best for your area in terms of transport or, or infrastructure, rather than waiting for some spending round where guess what, if you're lucky with a, with a headwind and you know the right people, you might get your kind of particular scheme on, you know, in the Green book or whatever it is. There are certain things such as the Ely area capacity enhancements. I'm not going to bore the committee with today, but that has been for 23 years, been a either third or fourth most important rail intervention in the entire country, because it's all based on freight, and the GVA is 4.8.
And it's a really, really good case. But it's it's about freight and it's not really particularly sexy. And the idea of connecting Peterborough and Cambridge, rather than a train that takes longer than 55 minutes, is so important to our to our area and could just transform our area. So rather than waiting for the government just to give it to us, what we could do is we could look to try and fund that ourselves, because we can borrow off the back of our own revenue.
And that's something that I don't think central government would ever really invest in because I haven't for 23 years. So what's going to make anything, any, any what's going to change their mind? So let's do it ourselves. Similarly, stuff we talked about , massive mass rapid transit. We can do stuff like that ourselves to create a revenue stream, which we could borrow against to try and invest in the infrastructure that our area needs. I think that is the biggest difference that rewiring the state could could lead to.
Certain things such as fiscal devolution, be it a share of locally raised income tax or a share of business rates, even if it's just the growth. Okay. On that basis, A, it does two things. First, it gives us an incentive to really go for growth and make decisions that are going to create economic growth, rather than be looking over our shoulder for short term politics. But secondly, and this is really, really important, if you get a long term revenue stream like that, you can borrow off the back of it, okay.
And then invest locally in what you perceive to be the best for your area in terms of transport or, or infrastructure, rather than waiting for some spending round where guess what, if you're lucky with a, with a headwind and you know the right people, you might get your kind of particular scheme on, you know, in the Green book or whatever it is. There are certain things such as the Ely area capacity enhancements. I'm not going to bore the committee with today, but that has been for 23 years, been a either third or fourth most important rail intervention in the entire country, because it's all based on freight, and the GVA is 4.8.
And it's a really, really good case. But it's it's about freight and it's not really particularly sexy. And the idea of connecting Peterborough and Cambridge, rather than a train that takes longer than 55 minutes, is so important to our to our area and could just transform our area. So rather than waiting for the government just to give it to us, what we could do is we could look to try and fund that ourselves, because we can borrow off the back of our own revenue.
And that's something that I don't think central government would ever really invest in because I haven't for 23 years. So what's going to make anything, any, any what's going to change their mind? So let's do it ourselves. Similarly, stuff we talked about , massive mass rapid transit. We can do stuff like that ourselves to create a revenue stream, which we could borrow against to try and invest in the infrastructure that our area needs. I think that is the biggest difference that rewiring the state could could lead to.
15:53
15:53
Michael Payne
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Michael Payne
So, I mean, again, this is where there's a difference between and the the combined authorities that are established in an integrated settlements and ourselves. So ours really is a yearly basis because we haven't had that integrated settlement. The one difference being the gain share pots that all of the strategic authorities get, that's subject to the gateway review process. So we passed that step again this year. So we were confirmed for the next five years.
But then, you know, as Mayor Rotherham and Catherine and Mayor Bristow have said, there's a number of things that we wait for and get informed on what the amount of money and the skills part for us in this particular area. What will our transport allocation be? What will we get for other innovation and housing, for instance? So we we have to wait for that on a yearly basis or subject to when might be an allocation for 2 or 3 years, depending on what the spending review is.
Obviously getting into an integrated settlement conversation, which might not happen for us until 2829. Align to the next spending review would be when that changes. I suspect for Liverpool, they've got an idea for a sustained period of the amount of funding, and I think that's one of the big differences. As Mayor Bristow said, with fiscal devolution, I think you look beyond that because with business rates and income tax that's being looked at, you look at them.
When do you reset and what's the right time to reset? How do you make that growth continue to allow you to then, you know, get that certainty. And that's not about the capacity in the organisation as much that is about if you can borrow to then deal with some of those infrastructure deficits that, you know, parts of the country have, we know we have in Cambridge and Peterborough to hopefully then drive that growth.
But then, you know, as Mayor Rotherham and Catherine and Mayor Bristow have said, there's a number of things that we wait for and get informed on what the amount of money and the skills part for us in this particular area. What will our transport allocation be? What will we get for other innovation and housing, for instance? So we we have to wait for that on a yearly basis or subject to when might be an allocation for 2 or 3 years, depending on what the spending review is.
Obviously getting into an integrated settlement conversation, which might not happen for us until 2829. Align to the next spending review would be when that changes. I suspect for Liverpool, they've got an idea for a sustained period of the amount of funding, and I think that's one of the big differences. As Mayor Bristow said, with fiscal devolution, I think you look beyond that because with business rates and income tax that's being looked at, you look at them.
When do you reset and what's the right time to reset? How do you make that growth continue to allow you to then, you know, get that certainty. And that's not about the capacity in the organisation as much that is about if you can borrow to then deal with some of those infrastructure deficits that, you know, parts of the country have, we know we have in Cambridge and Peterborough to hopefully then drive that growth.
15:55
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
I think you're telling us that your current system makes it quite difficult to plan, whereas Steve has got a block of money. He can he can plan and he can move bits of it between revenue and capital. Very different thing. Steve, are you I mean, we'll ask the officials in a minute, but I still gather that 2829 funding, even for you, is not actually baked in. Or is that is that not the case?
15:55
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Well, as a three year settlement, but obviously there has to be ratified each year by government, by Parliament. And so, you know, we're planning on what we've been told we're going to get. But I think the certainty, even if sometimes it's not the best news, at least if you have the certainty, then we can plan for what that is, if it gets better, brilliant. But we to attract somebody in, we have to start planning, you know, years before.
And then all of the infrastructure has to be put in place. So we've really benefited benefited from that strategic overview. And areas like Saint Helens, for instance, which is a former coal mining town. Absolutely. You know, decimated that started now to to find its way back with infrastructure that we've built. And then the ability then to attract that inward investment. It's when we talk about growth, nobody talks about growth on the doorstep.
Do you talk about jobs though. Talk about apprenticeships. They talk about wealth. Talk about improving the area. That's all the sorts of stuff that we are doing.
And then all of the infrastructure has to be put in place. So we've really benefited benefited from that strategic overview. And areas like Saint Helens, for instance, which is a former coal mining town. Absolutely. You know, decimated that started now to to find its way back with infrastructure that we've built. And then the ability then to attract that inward investment. It's when we talk about growth, nobody talks about growth on the doorstep.
Do you talk about jobs though. Talk about apprenticeships. They talk about wealth. Talk about improving the area. That's all the sorts of stuff that we are doing.
15:57
Matt Turmaine
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Matt Turmaine
Thank you, chair, and you from both sides. You've started to touch on some of these issues already, but I wonder if you could just outline a little bit more detail. What opportunities will fiscal devolution unlock that are difficult to achieve under the current system that you're operating in? You started to talk about investment, transport and skills and stuff, but.
15:57
Blake Stephenson
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Blake Stephenson
Sure. Well, I kind of outlined some of the things that I would do if I had the opportunity to, to go for fiscal devolution would be either business rates or income tax. I'd borrow off it for in order to invest in infrastructure, because, you know, you're never going to be able to do that with a, with a budget that that we have, you know, it's only going to be one pot, certain pots of money over here and certain pots of money over there.
And it's very, very challenging. But if you can borrow over a long period of time, you can create a model where you can fund something like the Ely area capacity enhancement or a mass rapid transit or a rail system. And you can you can have that certainty. And at least the investors have that certainty that you can repay that money, even if it's over 50 or 60 years. And I think that's, that's the way. And secondly, as well, as I said, it also gives us the incentives to go for growth.
You know, I'm very lucky to have in my area a high growth area. The Prime minister, when he was mayor of Manchester, talked about Manchester effect of 3% growth over a certain period of time. Over the same period of time, Cambridgeshire and Peterborough were growing at 2.7, 2.8% and but we didn't really have the opportunity, I don't think, because we didn't have the same resources and the same status as Greater Manchester in order to ride the benefits of that and go for even greater growth.
And it felt a bit bitty. It felt we will do one project over there because we were told we could do it and one project over here, but it wasn't, you know, that big strategic piece that we could try and grow a region. Now fiscal devolution and established status can change all of that.
And it's very, very challenging. But if you can borrow over a long period of time, you can create a model where you can fund something like the Ely area capacity enhancement or a mass rapid transit or a rail system. And you can you can have that certainty. And at least the investors have that certainty that you can repay that money, even if it's over 50 or 60 years. And I think that's, that's the way. And secondly, as well, as I said, it also gives us the incentives to go for growth.
You know, I'm very lucky to have in my area a high growth area. The Prime minister, when he was mayor of Manchester, talked about Manchester effect of 3% growth over a certain period of time. Over the same period of time, Cambridgeshire and Peterborough were growing at 2.7, 2.8% and but we didn't really have the opportunity, I don't think, because we didn't have the same resources and the same status as Greater Manchester in order to ride the benefits of that and go for even greater growth.
And it felt a bit bitty. It felt we will do one project over there because we were told we could do it and one project over here, but it wasn't, you know, that big strategic piece that we could try and grow a region. Now fiscal devolution and established status can change all of that.
15:59
15:59
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I feel the pain because I went through that for nine years myself. And it's so debilitating because that certainty does allow you to do the things that you plan for. So everything that we've done is contained within a ten year plan. So that's our local growth plan in the Liverpool City region. It's been ratified by national government. So we know the areas with the spatial development strategy that we've got.
We know where we can build out. We know where housing is going, we know where the industry's going, we know the transport links, we know the skills needs. All of that is available to us now. And that certainty of funding provides us with the launchpad to to go further than we currently have gone so far. So if you have a look at what we've done in the Liverpool City region, we've grown the economy by £3 billion in the last few years, £3 billion.
Don't forget, you know, Liverpool was often seen as being one of those areas in the post-industrialized world that people often cited. You know, look at the state of of what's happening there now, because we've got a very innovation led economic growth plan. We're teaming up not with Cambridge, but with Oxford, Oxford University. So they've chosen the Liverpool City Region to partner with for scale up spin outs and start ups. So it just shows you that we are changing the very nature of the economy.
Whilst of course we we're very proud of our visitor economy and not not decrying that either. We've gone from £4.4 billion. When I first took over to £6.8 billion last year. So we're seeing growth in that as well. But we don't just want that. We want to look at the technologies of the future, the opportunities of AI and the dangers of AI as well. We've just seen Jaguar Land Rover and what they've talked about with job losses.
I'm not apportioning all those job losses to AI, but it is a danger. So what can we do to get ahead of the curve. And that's really where those certainties are funding a really, really helpful as well as the fiscal stuff. If we get an overnight visitor levy, just imagine what we could do.
We know where we can build out. We know where housing is going, we know where the industry's going, we know the transport links, we know the skills needs. All of that is available to us now. And that certainty of funding provides us with the launchpad to to go further than we currently have gone so far. So if you have a look at what we've done in the Liverpool City region, we've grown the economy by £3 billion in the last few years, £3 billion.
Don't forget, you know, Liverpool was often seen as being one of those areas in the post-industrialized world that people often cited. You know, look at the state of of what's happening there now, because we've got a very innovation led economic growth plan. We're teaming up not with Cambridge, but with Oxford, Oxford University. So they've chosen the Liverpool City Region to partner with for scale up spin outs and start ups. So it just shows you that we are changing the very nature of the economy.
Whilst of course we we're very proud of our visitor economy and not not decrying that either. We've gone from £4.4 billion. When I first took over to £6.8 billion last year. So we're seeing growth in that as well. But we don't just want that. We want to look at the technologies of the future, the opportunities of AI and the dangers of AI as well. We've just seen Jaguar Land Rover and what they've talked about with job losses.
I'm not apportioning all those job losses to AI, but it is a danger. So what can we do to get ahead of the curve. And that's really where those certainties are funding a really, really helpful as well as the fiscal stuff. If we get an overnight visitor levy, just imagine what we could do.
16:01
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I could just add to what the mayor has said. I think what we are very keen to emphasize is how much we welcome having the integrated settlement, but it is still a series of pillars of funding with some flexibility within them. And I guess what we're seeing in rewiring the state is a much more open minded approach to fiscal devolution, where some of those grants would be replaced by other sources of funding from income tax business rates. So we would be able to flex that funding more significantly than we can do now.
And we know that in order to give that confidence, both in terms of service delivery, but also to investors and to communities, being able to demonstrate how that investment is being used in the round in future years is what will be the big game changer. As the mayors described, you know, we have high level of interest from investors. They want the certainty. They want to know that things will continue well in the Liverpool City region. So consequently, if we can see that growth that's coming through more devolved funding through fiscal devolution and a fresh reworking of the settlement, I think that will really give us the push that we need for the long term.
And we know that in order to give that confidence, both in terms of service delivery, but also to investors and to communities, being able to demonstrate how that investment is being used in the round in future years is what will be the big game changer. As the mayors described, you know, we have high level of interest from investors. They want the certainty. They want to know that things will continue well in the Liverpool City region. So consequently, if we can see that growth that's coming through more devolved funding through fiscal devolution and a fresh reworking of the settlement, I think that will really give us the push that we need for the long term.
16:02
Matt Turmaine
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Matt Turmaine
That's great. Thank you. And Steve, you kind of preempted my next question, which is going to be to ask Paul and Rob about what systems do you think you need to put in place to take advantage of the new fiscal devolution? But I was going to ask if you were talking to another you're talking to Oxford, but, you know, what do you think you need to put in place to take advantage of it? And then perhaps you, Catherine and Steve can say, are they barking up the right tree or the wrong tree in terms of anything else they need to think of?
16:02
Blake Stephenson
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Blake Stephenson
And I'll let Rob, you know, kind of answer as well. But I mean, just just a couple of things. I mean. I guess the first thing to just to stress is that when we talk about fiscal devolution, it's not necessarily new money, okay? This is going to be the opportunity to, to, to raise locally what we already receive. And then what we may be able to get is the proceeds of growth. Okay.
So it's not necessarily we're going to expect, you know, game changing new cash to provide all these kind of goodies and everything else. So I mean, that's the first we're still we still in our area just talking from our area of face, huge sort of challenges around the fact that we're not part of the funding, which is like city deal or transport funding. We Greater Manchester, I think I wrote this down. Greater Manchester gets 2.4 billion for transport for city regions.
I think Greater Manchester also gets another billion from City Region sustainable, sustainable transport settlement. You know, Tees Valley, which is two thirds smaller than we are. That gets a billion over four years. Our bus budget is 44 million a year. And so we have still got huge challenges when it comes to the amount of money that we're expected to provide for predominantly rural region with two big cities, you know, Peterborough and Cambridge, two, you know, reasonably sized cities.
But we in terms of our funding, different mayoral strategic authorities are at different places. Okay. And ours is is certainly not at the place of Greater Manchester or even Liverpool. What I did quite enjoy is that Liverpool have done a partnership with Oxford. You know, we went one better. We've done a partnership with your boss and Manchester.
So it's not necessarily we're going to expect, you know, game changing new cash to provide all these kind of goodies and everything else. So I mean, that's the first we're still we still in our area just talking from our area of face, huge sort of challenges around the fact that we're not part of the funding, which is like city deal or transport funding. We Greater Manchester, I think I wrote this down. Greater Manchester gets 2.4 billion for transport for city regions.
I think Greater Manchester also gets another billion from City Region sustainable, sustainable transport settlement. You know, Tees Valley, which is two thirds smaller than we are. That gets a billion over four years. Our bus budget is 44 million a year. And so we have still got huge challenges when it comes to the amount of money that we're expected to provide for predominantly rural region with two big cities, you know, Peterborough and Cambridge, two, you know, reasonably sized cities.
But we in terms of our funding, different mayoral strategic authorities are at different places. Okay. And ours is is certainly not at the place of Greater Manchester or even Liverpool. What I did quite enjoy is that Liverpool have done a partnership with Oxford. You know, we went one better. We've done a partnership with your boss and Manchester.
16:04
16:04
16:04
Michael Payne
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Michael Payne
So I mean I think you talked about what do you need in place. So I think one of the things that we've had to do in Cambridge and Peterborough is a lot around improving the governance and decision making for significant projects. So if you have an integrated settlement, you have to have something called a single assurance framework. You need to have certain things in place to ensure the value for money for the projects that are taking place. And I think that's really important.
And if you look at the rewiring document, it talks about local accounting offices. It talks about how do you make that locally accountable for value for money . So the taxpayer can see what's been spent in an area. And I think that is where there is a big change. Because if you're saying the proceeds that are generated in an area are now going to be used to do different things in an area, I think it's right that there is something in there that makes sure that , that the people who are responsible for it are held to account.
Now, in local authorities, you do have a similar arrangement. You'll have section 151 officers who are personally responsible for the financial stewardship and the use of public funds, and I don't think the local accounting officers coming through this, whether they're chief execs, which I think is what's been suggested. I think that's a very sensible way and some way with the local audit offices, making sure that the money that's generated in the place is then being spent on the right things in the place.
I think one of the questions that needs to be answered is what money are are you talking about in terms of the area? Is it purely what comes through the strategic authority? There was a mention around health earlier. Are you going to start talking about, you know, the health elements? Are you going to start talking about local authorities? That's a very important question that needs to be understood. But I think the governance around and disciplined governance around project management, how decisions are made, you know, do they provide the right payback , recognising that the Green Book has been reviewed as well? There is a point around a balance.
You know, there was a decision made a few years ago in Peterborough to invest in a new university, and that had a big social value impact, as well as what it costs to build. It was one of a big allocation. It was jointly done with the City council, with government, with the combined authority. You've now got a university in an area where 50% of the people who go if over 50% come from a postcode from the area, who would have never gone to university and from a from a social mobility point of view, alongside what it's cost to do in there has been phenomenal, phenomenal.
And it's been a real impactful point around how devolution works in an area. Hold on.
And if you look at the rewiring document, it talks about local accounting offices. It talks about how do you make that locally accountable for value for money . So the taxpayer can see what's been spent in an area. And I think that is where there is a big change. Because if you're saying the proceeds that are generated in an area are now going to be used to do different things in an area, I think it's right that there is something in there that makes sure that , that the people who are responsible for it are held to account.
Now, in local authorities, you do have a similar arrangement. You'll have section 151 officers who are personally responsible for the financial stewardship and the use of public funds, and I don't think the local accounting officers coming through this, whether they're chief execs, which I think is what's been suggested. I think that's a very sensible way and some way with the local audit offices, making sure that the money that's generated in the place is then being spent on the right things in the place.
I think one of the questions that needs to be answered is what money are are you talking about in terms of the area? Is it purely what comes through the strategic authority? There was a mention around health earlier. Are you going to start talking about, you know, the health elements? Are you going to start talking about local authorities? That's a very important question that needs to be understood. But I think the governance around and disciplined governance around project management, how decisions are made, you know, do they provide the right payback , recognising that the Green Book has been reviewed as well? There is a point around a balance.
You know, there was a decision made a few years ago in Peterborough to invest in a new university, and that had a big social value impact, as well as what it costs to build. It was one of a big allocation. It was jointly done with the City council, with government, with the combined authority. You've now got a university in an area where 50% of the people who go if over 50% come from a postcode from the area, who would have never gone to university and from a from a social mobility point of view, alongside what it's cost to do in there has been phenomenal, phenomenal.
And it's been a real impactful point around how devolution works in an area. Hold on.
16:06
16:07
16:07
16:07
16:07
16:07
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Strange in the, the, the place that you work, but we don't have to be party political as metro mayors. And so there's a thing called UK mayors, where we all come together from all the different parties and we share ideas. And that's because, you know, I don't think any of us believe in drawing up the drawbridge just because we're doing well. So we're saying, have a look at this. We were talking outside this morning.
I've been on our buses because we've just reregulated our buses. We've taken them back into public control and something that Paul might be interested in. So we're just sharing notes. But that's the way I think that we learn those lessons. That's because the country has to benefit and look for the one of the first times in my lifetime, the Liverpool City region is really doing well. If you have a look at all the economic indicators, all going in the right direction, even on productivity, which is the most sticky part, was closing the gap nationally.
But if you have a look at what we've done with qualifications, you know, we've half the number without people, people without qualifications, NVQ level four and above were smashing it above national averages. So we're doing some really good stuff, but I'm more than happy to share with him or with anybody else and learn those lessons between us, because it's UK plc has the benefit.
I've been on our buses because we've just reregulated our buses. We've taken them back into public control and something that Paul might be interested in. So we're just sharing notes. But that's the way I think that we learn those lessons. That's because the country has to benefit and look for the one of the first times in my lifetime, the Liverpool City region is really doing well. If you have a look at all the economic indicators, all going in the right direction, even on productivity, which is the most sticky part, was closing the gap nationally.
But if you have a look at what we've done with qualifications, you know, we've half the number without people, people without qualifications, NVQ level four and above were smashing it above national averages. So we're doing some really good stuff, but I'm more than happy to share with him or with anybody else and learn those lessons between us, because it's UK plc has the benefit.
16:08
16:08
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
If I could just come in on a final point, please. I think one of the things that I was really struck by when the mayor and I began working together was how we needed to build the organisation in order to respond and be sustainable, because we'd had a very busy first term. It was the mayor's second term, and the more and more responsibility was coming our way to the point that Mayor Bristow and Rob made, which is about building their organizational capacity and capability and resourcing is absolutely key.
And, you know, it's really great to see and rewiring the state where they're putting a real emphasis on that, as much on accountability as building the capacity and capability. And also, you know, the way in which our deals came together were quite opportunistic for each area. It was a moment in time. We need more consistency across the board now. Not that everywhere will be the same, but access to core funding. We need to really have that challenge conversation and it feels the right space now with rewiring the state, which is set out a really clear direction of travel.
But you have to build the institution to run and deliver the msa's business every day. And we can't underestimate the scale of doing that. You know, we have doubled in size over this period of time in order to respond. And we grew out of a transport authority which was already operating and very well run. Not everybody starts in that place.
And, you know, it's really great to see and rewiring the state where they're putting a real emphasis on that, as much on accountability as building the capacity and capability. And also, you know, the way in which our deals came together were quite opportunistic for each area. It was a moment in time. We need more consistency across the board now. Not that everywhere will be the same, but access to core funding. We need to really have that challenge conversation and it feels the right space now with rewiring the state, which is set out a really clear direction of travel.
But you have to build the institution to run and deliver the msa's business every day. And we can't underestimate the scale of doing that. You know, we have doubled in size over this period of time in order to respond. And we grew out of a transport authority which was already operating and very well run. Not everybody starts in that place.
16:09
16:09
16:09
Chris Kane
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Chris Kane
Steve, can I just come in and that sort of shared learning piece that you know I'm a Scottish MP. So we've had devolution for a long time. And I remark in this committee quite a lot that it bothers me that the component parts of the United Kingdom just don't learn from each other and don't learn from each other in a structured, almost strategic and statutory function. Do you think as we're embarking on more devolution, that we should give more time here to thinking about how we bake in that requirement to take the time to learn and learn strategic lessons about when we're tackling similar challenges, how we can learn what is happening in Cambridge or Liverpool or Manchester or Glasgow or Aberdeen and get that right, because it doesn't feel like it's strong enough at the moment in terms of the institutional requirements to do so.
16:10
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I think there's a difference in the devolution for nations than there are for regions, to tell you the truth, and I'll point to some of them. But we went again, myself and Andy went to to Glasgow and when we were speaking to to Glasgow, they were saying that devolution feels sometimes as if it's bypassed it because it's mainly Edinburgh that gets the funding and they distribute it. So I think we need almost double devolution for the nations in the regions, though I think because we're all very, very different and sometimes competitive.
But also there's a lot of complementarity between what goes on and when you pull that together. We're going to India, and I think there's a number of metro mayors all going to India, but we're going to sell the UK. We're not going necessarily to sell our individual bits. So I think there's a lot that we can do to learn from that sort of more collegiate approach. And getting above some of the, what I'd call the Mickey Mouse politics.
But also there's a lot of complementarity between what goes on and when you pull that together. We're going to India, and I think there's a number of metro mayors all going to India, but we're going to sell the UK. We're not going necessarily to sell our individual bits. So I think there's a lot that we can do to learn from that sort of more collegiate approach. And getting above some of the, what I'd call the Mickey Mouse politics.
16:11
Blake Stephenson
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Blake Stephenson
And if I may, I talked a second ago about this Manchester Cambridge partnership. So that's something that our two areas have come together to learn from one another. Now, the reason we did this is we've got a ecosystem in Cambridge where you do have on around life sciences and manufacturing. You do have industry, academia and government all working together to try and create this. And this is why the Cambridge economy has grown to such an extent around the biomedical campus.
In certain ways, we can't keep up in terms of congestion and water and energy. And that's some of the challenges that I have now. I know Manchester are very, very interested in looking at, you know, how that occurred and what they can learn from it. And so I was with my eyes open, completely aware of that. And so when we when we have been to Manchester and Andy and his team came to Cambridge, what I wanted to learn from was how their organisation has worked so effectively.
And one of the lessons I learned was how the university there is so integral in terms of Greater Manchester to their combined authority and how they work together. We've got perhaps the best university in the world as far as I'm concerned, in in Cambridge, and there's a real opportunity for us to try and get the university really involved in everything we do as a growth organisation. So I'm always learning from other people. And look, there's this thing called the rural sort of transport group where again, mayors and other areas kind of get together.
And while other sort of rural areas are kind of dipping their toes in bus franchising and, you know, I'm going to go ahead with bus franchising, not necessarily because I'm a huge, you know, this is a conservative, you know, kind of doing this. And there's a huge national kind of push to, to this sort of model, not because I'm a huge ideologically in favour of local authorities running bus services necessarily, but I just think it's probably the best thing we can do for, for our area in terms of getting a reliable service.
And while other rural areas are kind of dipping their toes in and thinking about it, and York and North Yorkshire, we're actually doing it, you know, we're actually doing it on a budget of 44 million. And if there's one thing that keeps me awake at night, you know, as mayor, it's not necessarily opening Cambridge South Station or, you know, university in Peterborough. It's actually making sure that we have a long term sustainable bus service and that that doesn't bankrupt us basically , because buses are expensive.
And but we're we're doing it. And if we can learn from Liverpool or Manchester, understanding that this is a predominantly rural authority of around 900,000 people, rather than a metro authority of 2.5 million people or whatever. If we can learn lessons from, from, from other areas, we're going to take them, whether they're conservative, labour reform or whatever. We're going to do what we can to try and make sure that our area learns from the rest of the country.
In certain ways, we can't keep up in terms of congestion and water and energy. And that's some of the challenges that I have now. I know Manchester are very, very interested in looking at, you know, how that occurred and what they can learn from it. And so I was with my eyes open, completely aware of that. And so when we when we have been to Manchester and Andy and his team came to Cambridge, what I wanted to learn from was how their organisation has worked so effectively.
And one of the lessons I learned was how the university there is so integral in terms of Greater Manchester to their combined authority and how they work together. We've got perhaps the best university in the world as far as I'm concerned, in in Cambridge, and there's a real opportunity for us to try and get the university really involved in everything we do as a growth organisation. So I'm always learning from other people. And look, there's this thing called the rural sort of transport group where again, mayors and other areas kind of get together.
And while other sort of rural areas are kind of dipping their toes in bus franchising and, you know, I'm going to go ahead with bus franchising, not necessarily because I'm a huge, you know, this is a conservative, you know, kind of doing this. And there's a huge national kind of push to, to this sort of model, not because I'm a huge ideologically in favour of local authorities running bus services necessarily, but I just think it's probably the best thing we can do for, for our area in terms of getting a reliable service.
And while other rural areas are kind of dipping their toes in and thinking about it, and York and North Yorkshire, we're actually doing it, you know, we're actually doing it on a budget of 44 million. And if there's one thing that keeps me awake at night, you know, as mayor, it's not necessarily opening Cambridge South Station or, you know, university in Peterborough. It's actually making sure that we have a long term sustainable bus service and that that doesn't bankrupt us basically , because buses are expensive.
And but we're we're doing it. And if we can learn from Liverpool or Manchester, understanding that this is a predominantly rural authority of around 900,000 people, rather than a metro authority of 2.5 million people or whatever. If we can learn lessons from, from, from other areas, we're going to take them, whether they're conservative, labour reform or whatever. We're going to do what we can to try and make sure that our area learns from the rest of the country.
16:14
Chris Kane
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Chris Kane
And the chair will indulge me quickly. Local government colleagues in Scotland are pretty concerned that the Scottish Government has announced a consultation on local government reform north of the border, and I think the concern is that it's going to be done to them rather than with them. How important is it at your level of of, of devolution to nurture relationships both down the way to local government and up the way to national government in a way that's lacking in Scotland at the moment.
There's a real fear that this is going to be something that's done for the wrong reasons and done to local government, not with local government.
There's a real fear that this is going to be something that's done for the wrong reasons and done to local government, not with local government.
16:14
16:14
Blake Stephenson
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Blake Stephenson
If I may, I mean, politics in Cambridgeshire and Peterborough is, is is very diverse. We've got parts of Cambridge with green councillors, you know, a Labour city run Cambridge City Council, a Liberal Democrat run, you know, county council and a conservative mayor. You know, if we we have to we have the combined authority. We have to have effective working relationships with our constituent councils, whether they're run by conservatives or liberals. And if we don't, we won't get anything done.
And if I'm being honest, and you look back to our authority, that's perhaps what's led us down in the past. But we're not going to make those mistakes again.
And if I'm being honest, and you look back to our authority, that's perhaps what's led us down in the past. But we're not going to make those mistakes again.
16:15
Blake Stephenson
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Blake Stephenson
But we have to we have to have partnerships with these organisations because quite often we're passporting money to them and they're the delivery vehicle on the on the ground, you know, the Station Quarter in Peterborough, £50 million worth of public money, real opportunity to transform Peterborough or gateway to to that area. We have to work with local government to get that done. If we don't, then we might as well pack up and go home.
16:15
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Yeah. And we're called a combined authority. So our six local authorities are the combined authority. And each of those leaders individually has a portfolio, but they're part of the cabinet that make the overall decisions for the whole of the city region. So it's not taking powers away from local authorities. It's enhancing what they've already got. And it's providing that strategic leadership at times , because as we know, councils can change colors one year after another, at least, you know, for an elected for four years, you can head in a strategic direction and have at least four years to try to get there.
Councils don't have the same opportunity really, so I've not had any problems with our councils, and they actually like what we're trying to do to lead the area. But also we've now got reform as a council in our city region, which we've never had before. It was Labour which provides, by the way, its own opposition, just to let you know. But we've got reform now. And this morning the reform leader was at the launch of the the the new buses, brand new bus fleet in Saint Helens.
So I think it works.
Councils don't have the same opportunity really, so I've not had any problems with our councils, and they actually like what we're trying to do to lead the area. But also we've now got reform as a council in our city region, which we've never had before. It was Labour which provides, by the way, its own opposition, just to let you know. But we've got reform now. And this morning the reform leader was at the launch of the the the new buses, brand new bus fleet in Saint Helens.
So I think it works.
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
Thanks very much, Chris. Before I ask Sarah Olney, I'd just like to clarify really one thing that I was asking you about Steve and Catherine. The report on page 25, paragraph 2.14, in relation to multiyear settlements, says that budgets for 2009 and 29 30th May be re-examined during 27 spending review. But I take your point, Steve. Of course you're going to get something, something reasonable to keep the services going so you at least can plan for that.
And if you get a good settlement, well, sky's the limit. So anyway, I thought I'd just clarify that. Sarah Olney.
And if you get a good settlement, well, sky's the limit. So anyway, I thought I'd just clarify that. Sarah Olney.
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Sarah Olney
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Sarah Olney
Thank you, chair Paul, you were talking on a couple of occasions there about Passporting and that the the strategic authority is a I assume what you mean, you're kind of like you're getting funds from central government, and then you're passing them through to your constituent local authorities to spend. There's a mention in the report that some of the frustrations that leaders have of the strategic authorities are facing is that they're somehow just another arm of central government delivery, which seems to me sort of a kind of a similar kind of complaint.
But clearly this what the government, what Mhclg are putting in place to try and combat this as the outcomes frameworks. What's your experience of working with the government on the outcomes frameworks and what what changed? And obviously, they're committed to making changes to the way that they're put together. What change do you think would make the biggest difference in terms of your ambitions for your strategic authority?
But clearly this what the government, what Mhclg are putting in place to try and combat this as the outcomes frameworks. What's your experience of working with the government on the outcomes frameworks and what what changed? And obviously, they're committed to making changes to the way that they're put together. What change do you think would make the biggest difference in terms of your ambitions for your strategic authority?
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Blake Stephenson
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Blake Stephenson
We're already slightly curtailed, as I mentioned, about what we can spend and when we can spend it by and what we we can spend it on, but that will change when we get to established status, and hopefully that will change further when we get to fiscal devolution. And we are negotiating. What you've said is an outcomes framework. What I'll say about the criticism about are we just another layer of government if we're just passporting the money? I mean, two things for that.
First, we have to get used to being a delivery organisation. Okay. And that's something we are we are very proud of things we delivered, such as AR Peterborough and you know, the, the Tiger Pass, which benefits, you know, so many young people across our area around travel. So, you know, we are a delivery authority at the same time, but it's about partnership working. I think a lot of the time, our constituent councils would not have the capacity to think about a big infrastructure project in their area, such as the Peterborough Station Quarter.
We talk about it for 30 years, but would they ever get it done or the university or other things? And that's what an organisation such as ours is. A combined authority can provide that strategic focus to get these projects, you know, over the line. But I guess one of the challenges around a potential outcomes framework is that why we get further devolution. One of the criticisms could be that the outcomes framework is just another opportunity for central government to control what it is you can do and what you can spend it on.
What I'm asking the that is a challenge. That is a risk. I'm not going to pretend, but I think, you know, it can't get any worse perhaps than than it's been. And so this should be seen as, as a natural optimist, this could be seen as a as an opportunity rather than just a potential. Another constraint on our on our time.
First, we have to get used to being a delivery organisation. Okay. And that's something we are we are very proud of things we delivered, such as AR Peterborough and you know, the, the Tiger Pass, which benefits, you know, so many young people across our area around travel. So, you know, we are a delivery authority at the same time, but it's about partnership working. I think a lot of the time, our constituent councils would not have the capacity to think about a big infrastructure project in their area, such as the Peterborough Station Quarter.
We talk about it for 30 years, but would they ever get it done or the university or other things? And that's what an organisation such as ours is. A combined authority can provide that strategic focus to get these projects, you know, over the line. But I guess one of the challenges around a potential outcomes framework is that why we get further devolution. One of the criticisms could be that the outcomes framework is just another opportunity for central government to control what it is you can do and what you can spend it on.
What I'm asking the that is a challenge. That is a risk. I'm not going to pretend, but I think, you know, it can't get any worse perhaps than than it's been. And so this should be seen as, as a natural optimist, this could be seen as a as an opportunity rather than just a potential. Another constraint on our on our time.
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Blake Stephenson
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Blake Stephenson
know, you try and do what you want. But there will always be central government priorities about what they want to do. I guess for me, it's not necessarily about where you want to get to, it's how you get there. Okay, no government is going to come in and say, right? To be honest, I'm not interested in having a skilled population or I'm not interested in, you know, economic growth in this particular area. Apparently , we're going to have growth in every postcode, apparently.
Okay. So this is about trying to help us get there. And I think as long as you go into that negotiation on an outcomes framework with that in mind, I think we're going to be positive, I think. Rob, do you want to come in on. Well,
Okay. So this is about trying to help us get there. And I think as long as you go into that negotiation on an outcomes framework with that in mind, I think we're going to be positive, I think. Rob, do you want to come in on. Well,
16:21
Michael Payne
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Michael Payne
yeah. I mean, I think in many ways, I'm sure Mayor Rotherham and Catherine will give a view about how the outcomes framework has played into the integrated settlement conversations. And I think at times it's probably been more challenging than that than it needs to be. I think, as Mayor Bristow just said, I've seen some of it. It almost feels like a constitutional scheme of delegation to the authorities. So it's basically saying that you must do this, this and this.
So I think what we need is flexibility within that outcomes framework. So it allows local choice for whatever those funds are. So yes we will. And it comes back to my, my, my previous comments around local accounting officers, local audit office, if you look at those as a whole and make sure you have a system that holds the right people to account, make sure that you see outcomes for what is being done, but is flexible enough to give people on the ground enough flexibility to be able to move that rather than saying, well, you said you would do this by this date and you haven't.
Well, sometimes big infrastructure projects aren't as simple as that.
So I think what we need is flexibility within that outcomes framework. So it allows local choice for whatever those funds are. So yes we will. And it comes back to my, my, my previous comments around local accounting officers, local audit office, if you look at those as a whole and make sure you have a system that holds the right people to account, make sure that you see outcomes for what is being done, but is flexible enough to give people on the ground enough flexibility to be able to move that rather than saying, well, you said you would do this by this date and you haven't.
Well, sometimes big infrastructure projects aren't as simple as that.
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Blake Stephenson
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Blake Stephenson
have, you know, kind of, you know, that sort of control. But, you know, one thing I'll say is, you know, if the mayor of of greater as mayor of Greater Manchester, if he he talks about if he does his prime minister or the Prime Minister does what he said he would do as greater mayor, the mayor of Greater Manchester, if he if he pursues those ambitions he pursued as mayor of Manchester in terms of devolution and greater powers and the flexibility of, of of locally elected mayors.
I think Steve and I would probably both welcome that.
I think Steve and I would probably both welcome that.
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16:22
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
You need parameters, don't you, by which you operate within. And and that provides then the opportunity or a framework for people like yourselves and all of the different tiers that we have to go through with scrutiny. And believe me, there are many, but I think that's a good thing. I think the, the transparency of how we're spending public funding taxpayers money is the right way. So I'm not moaning about that.
I do agree with the flexibilities. So say, for instance, one of our targets is that we had to try to get more people with NVQ level three. We don't have all the levers for that at the moment. We have the adult education budget and we do a lot on that, and we have some limited funding below that. And that's why I think the move by the Prime Minister to try to free up some of that funding means that we can hit those targets more readily.
So on what the suggestions are that DWP budgets, for instance, would come under metro mayors, that's a big chunk where certain people need to get these qualifications as a prerequisite of getting employment so we can match things up more easily, but we haven't got all the levers of the input that were expected then to be measured on the outputs. So I just. Think
I do agree with the flexibilities. So say, for instance, one of our targets is that we had to try to get more people with NVQ level three. We don't have all the levers for that at the moment. We have the adult education budget and we do a lot on that, and we have some limited funding below that. And that's why I think the move by the Prime Minister to try to free up some of that funding means that we can hit those targets more readily.
So on what the suggestions are that DWP budgets, for instance, would come under metro mayors, that's a big chunk where certain people need to get these qualifications as a prerequisite of getting employment so we can match things up more easily, but we haven't got all the levers of the input that were expected then to be measured on the outputs. So I just. Think
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Incredibly positive. And I'll just go back to to what Paul was saying earlier about Passporting. That's the frustration. So we're just a conduit for funding really. Is that what devolution is? It's not for me. And so I genuinely do feel that sort of pain that the likes of Peterborough and Cambridgeshire and the other not non MSAs are going through. But for us it was that it was that for nearly eight years , and even within the constraints of those frustrations, we still did wonderful things because you can work with partners differently.
Again, you mentioned about the soft powers. The convening powers are huge. You know, when you become the Metro mayor, the focus is about you trying to get more out of what's there. And we've always believed that there's as much talent in the Liverpool City region as Peterborough and Cambridgeshire on it anywhere else. What's not been there is opportunity, so we're now providing that.
Again, you mentioned about the soft powers. The convening powers are huge. You know, when you become the Metro mayor, the focus is about you trying to get more out of what's there. And we've always believed that there's as much talent in the Liverpool City region as Peterborough and Cambridgeshire on it anywhere else. What's not been there is opportunity, so we're now providing that.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I could give you a practical example if that would be helpful. So what what was really significant for us when we heard we would be getting the integrated settlement and the conversations we had with the local authority leaders and their offices was around the opportunity to shape the outcomes framework and how we would then look at the whole system that we're all involved in in order to drive the change that we needed. So the actual negotiation of the outcomes at times, like any negotiation, you know, I want a bit more than you want to give, you know, was was challenging, but we secured a really strong set of outcomes.
You're absolutely right in terms of sometimes too much focus on dictating delivery and inputs rather than broad outcomes. But what it led to, and I think this is really powerful, is a whole system conversation with our local authority constituents, with DWP, with our Fe colleges and others in the system to think about, in an ideal world, what system would we be looking for and how do the inputs we all provide help deliver that overall outcome? And what we see through rewiring the state is more steps in that direction.
So there's something about breaking into a cycle, which we did with the outcomes framework and the integrated settlement, and then continuing to work through that into the future.
You're absolutely right in terms of sometimes too much focus on dictating delivery and inputs rather than broad outcomes. But what it led to, and I think this is really powerful, is a whole system conversation with our local authority constituents, with DWP, with our Fe colleges and others in the system to think about, in an ideal world, what system would we be looking for and how do the inputs we all provide help deliver that overall outcome? And what we see through rewiring the state is more steps in that direction.
So there's something about breaking into a cycle, which we did with the outcomes framework and the integrated settlement, and then continuing to work through that into the future.
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
Thank you, Sarah. So following on from that exchange, let's just talk about the programme board, which is the board that meets every six months. It contains the greater good of the Treasury. CLG yourselves, and it measures delivery against that outcomes programme framework that Sarah was talking about and resolves cross-departmental issues. How well does it work?
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Well, because we're in year one of our integrated settlement, we haven't yet had a formal engagement on that front. There's lots of informal conversations checking off points along the way. So at the moment, what we're finding is things are working effectively. We're able to demonstrate progress and delivery. And as we get into the more formal stages, as we work through the rest of the year, I feel confident that things will be effective.
We have we're very good lines of communication between the departments in terms of delivery, what's on track, what may be struggling to deliver. So I guess if you've got an open and transparent culture and way of working that will give you the benefits in the long term.
We have we're very good lines of communication between the departments in terms of delivery, what's on track, what may be struggling to deliver. So I guess if you've got an open and transparent culture and way of working that will give you the benefits in the long term.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Especially when we. We specifically ask for things which will help our organization. Operate more constructively. I mean, a bit like our voting system. You know, I need a two thirds majority on my board in order to move a bus stop. You know, if it's a transport, you know, kind of issue, it's incredibly frustrating. But and it's incredibly frustrating that sometimes government are quite slow in order to try and .
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Are more. proactive and easier to work with than others. Want to expand on that? Yeah. Okay. So I had some terrible. conversations with DFA because we want to do so much more. And if we've got an employer who wants to relocate to our area or FDI coming into our area, we need people with the right skills for that employer. And yet we don't have some of those pots of money.
And that was a huge. drawback for us. But there are others that have been problematic. DWP at one stage wouldn't share data with us. So that we thought was because we're all trying to do the same thing. So that was a bit problematic. But I genuinely think over the last few weeks and months things really it's it's so stark. The difference now, people in the machinery of government really do want to work closely with us, and they see .
Us
And that was a huge. drawback for us. But there are others that have been problematic. DWP at one stage wouldn't share data with us. So that we thought was because we're all trying to do the same thing. So that was a bit problematic. But I genuinely think over the last few weeks and months things really it's it's so stark. The difference now, people in the machinery of government really do want to work closely with us, and they see .
Us
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16:30
Tristan Osborne
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Tristan Osborne
Thank you for that candour, Chris. I think you're next, please. Yes, thank you very much. So my question is just around the local accounting offices. I know, Rob, you mentioned earlier, in fact, you sort of preempted my question somewhat. But obviously in the paper it says that the new white paper will look consider a system of local accounting offices. You alluded to the fact that that could be a chief executive officer or similar in a.
151 officer. Obviously, it doesn't give that clarity at present. Is that how Catherine and Rob, is that how you foresee this local accounting officer? Would it be the chief executive in your in your mind? Because that would be common sense, but . It
151 officer. Obviously, it doesn't give that clarity at present. Is that how Catherine and Rob, is that how you foresee this local accounting officer? Would it be the chief executive in your in your mind? Because that would be common sense, but . It
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Chris Kane
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Chris Kane
paper. White paper, is it? Do you want to start? Yeah. I mean, I suppose one of my, my, my, my background is finance. So I have been 151 officer. So I suppose I just go back to those principles. I think it should be the chief exec. I think it's a similar to the permanent Secretary role for departments. I think that would be very much a. strengthening of what that arrangement is into a local audit office, into a local accounts committee or whatever needs to be there.
So there's a mechanism for signing off and making sure that the funds that are being used are meeting all those requirements that permanent secretaries do on behalf of .
So there's a mechanism for signing off and making sure that the funds that are being used are meeting all those requirements that permanent secretaries do on behalf of .
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Parliament now. So I think that's probably the right place that it should be. Certainly, you know, I would absolutely agree with Rob. There's something about the oversight we have for the whole. organisation and responsibility for good governance, resource. management and so on and so forth. So it feels like a natural place that that would be located. I do think there's some development to be done around that and to understand the. parameters and also about development support for all of us, because it's a new role in a new world.
So
So
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Tristan Osborne
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Tristan Osborne
really want to make sure that we could fulfill that role completely. Thank you for that. And I think they're both very clear answers about where you see that. And I suspect that's probably similar in other similar authorities. I suppose then with the local accounting officer in terms of parliamentary scrutiny within the report, there's a lot of tension. I think, Steve, you highlighted some of that tension that you have with government in terms of the strategic levers government is telling you to do stuff.
You're expected to deliver the outputs and then held to account on the outputs. We have resource challenges. That does come out of this report very clearly. And then we have the different challenges around how you manage internal stakeholders, be that within within your group, but also politically, externally as well. My colleague Rupert might be, might be, might have some further something further to add on that. But, but I was just wondering, in terms of the parliamentary scrutiny, how do you foresee that that accountability with accounting officers, is it similar to a council .
You're expected to deliver the outputs and then held to account on the outputs. We have resource challenges. That does come out of this report very clearly. And then we have the different challenges around how you manage internal stakeholders, be that within within your group, but also politically, externally as well. My colleague Rupert might be, might be, might have some further something further to add on that. But, but I was just wondering, in terms of the parliamentary scrutiny, how do you foresee that that accountability with accounting officers, is it similar to a council .
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Chris Kane
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Chris Kane
I mean, so I think it is slightly different because, you know, one, five, one officers are responsible directly to their councillors and to the council and obviously and the auditors. So I think there is a point about how do you set up a mechanism that comes back to Parliament? Because I think, you know, I've always said it very clearly. We can't be asking, you know, whether it's mayors or senior officers. We can't be asking for more.
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Chris Kane
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Chris Kane
More funding, and then not think we've got to be accountable for it and demonstrate how that is being used in an area. And I think some mechanism within it that, you know, means that, you know, the accounting officers have to come and speak to Parliament on their area. It's probably a sensible thing to be explored because at the end of the day, you know, we need to show members of Parliament and give you the trust that we are.
delivering what you've asked us to deliver. When I say that, I don't mean, you know, back to the outcomes framework, but more about your devolve those funds. You're going to do something really important in that area to grow the economy, the skills, the jobs, the connectivity.
delivering what you've asked us to deliver. When I say that, I don't mean, you know, back to the outcomes framework, but more about your devolve those funds. You're going to do something really important in that area to grow the economy, the skills, the jobs, the connectivity.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
whole range of. measures and can demonstrate really strong and robust governance and value for money. So it's about being complimentary to that because the local. assurance mechanisms are very strong already. The challenge that local scrutiny committees bring is hugely significant for us, very beneficial. And though there's always scope to develop that further and to continuously improve, there is something about. complementarity in another layer . Of
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Tristan Osborne
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Tristan Osborne
So you've poacher turned gamekeeper, not to use the expression but to use it sensibly. But is there anything you would given you've seen you both worked in Parliament and also you've had your current roles. Where would you say that there's some lesson learned from an accountability perspective? Do you think we should be less. controlling effectively? Because implicit . Within
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
But we have to be more accountable. I think that's the, the, the big thing to take away that, you know, we're talking in the billions. So, you know, sometimes councils, you might be talking about tens of millions if we've got something wrong, the enormity of it is for all to see, and we'd be happy with any form of scrutiny at all. I think probably genuinely after the Prime Minister, we are.
individually the most scrutinised. politicians because of the processes that we have to go through.
individually the most scrutinised. politicians because of the processes that we have to go through.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
We have to comply with the assurance framework. We have overview and scrutiny all the time. We have audit and governance all the time. It goes on. And then I don't know whether you have one, but local radio now has more of these houses called the Hot Seat. But Andy used to do a phone in. We do a phone in and you'll see that mayors are accountable also to the electorate, which is I think it's really important.
And then over above all of that sort of stuff,
And then over above all of that sort of stuff,
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
mayoral question times. Yeah. They're fun. Yeah, yeah. I'm looking forward to my mayoral question time in Ely on September the 17th. No. But I think in terms of scrutiny, you know Steve's right. We do have a quite a few opportunities for councillors in our area to ask us questions. And then government, you know, in our area to ask us questions and the public. But do you know something? I think you know, this experience coming before you today, the Public Accounts Committee, to to what Steve was saying.
We're responsible for spending huge amounts of public money. And I think in some sort of structure in place where . Members of
We're responsible for spending huge amounts of public money. And I think in some sort of structure in place where . Members of
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Tristan Osborne
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Tristan Osborne
Hold mayors to account. It's probably not a bad thing. Okay. Just my final question, because obviously with announcements today, time scales around how this will all be settled around. Accounting offices, I suppose is a moot point because there might be changes coming. But my last question just around using figure eight refers to Australia and the model they have around. devolution and their approach to agreements between central government and the devolved bodies is there is there is the I don't know if you've had a chance to see that, but is that a reasoned model where they've set up a sort of a financial relations council which basically oversees you rather than a.
parliamentary direct line of scrutiny, maybe having a body which. oversees or is that another another body which is in between you and government, which is . Almost
parliamentary direct line of scrutiny, maybe having a body which. oversees or is that another another body which is in between you and government, which is . Almost
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
like triple tiered evolution creates another sort of barrier, in a sense. Well, I mean, I'm not familiar with the model, so you'll have to forgive me. But look, you know, I always take the view that, you know, opening up the windows and. transparency and accountability leads to good decision making and good, good governance. I've got no problem with that at all. I guess sometimes it does become frustration. Frustrating is when, you know, you certainly with central government, when you've got more kind of hoops to, to, to, to jump through and more things, you know, to get in order to get to a point of delivery.
So that becomes frustrating. And sometimes a willingness, as Steve was saying, sometimes for Whitehall to, to engage. I think that is changing. And I think if you're a civil servant now and your your focus is delivery, you probably be looking to probably should want to come to a, a devolved authority or moral authority more than you perhaps you would at Whitehall department with the direction of travel that is now. But if there was some sort of mechanism by which we can be held to account, you know, I quite like the MP system, to be honest.
I was one you know, I think, you know, MPs, you know, that's, that's what you're there to do. And what we . Were, we
So that becomes frustrating. And sometimes a willingness, as Steve was saying, sometimes for Whitehall to, to engage. I think that is changing. And I think if you're a civil servant now and your your focus is delivery, you probably be looking to probably should want to come to a, a devolved authority or moral authority more than you perhaps you would at Whitehall department with the direction of travel that is now. But if there was some sort of mechanism by which we can be held to account, you know, I quite like the MP system, to be honest.
I was one you know, I think, you know, MPs, you know, that's, that's what you're there to do. And what we . Were, we
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
there to do, to scrutinise, you know, and I think that would be a good thing. Can I give an example of where it the constraints are really the problem. If we want to do a transport project. You're talking about big money. Most transport projects are ridiculous amounts of money. Anything over. £50 million to date, we would have to go back, say to the Department of Transport and say, we want to build a train station.
Why are we asking national government for the permission to build it when we've got the funding? So it's the money that's being allocated to us. We want to build it. We've gone through all of the planning application, all the consultants and all of that sort of stuff, spends a lot of money, and then we have to get permission off a national government. I . Think
Why are we asking national government for the permission to build it when we've got the funding? So it's the money that's being allocated to us. We want to build it. We've gone through all of the planning application, all the consultants and all of that sort of stuff, spends a lot of money, and then we have to get permission off a national government. I . Think
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
a little bit. Yeah. Thank you very much. Thank you sir. So we on this committee are the main committee that scrutinises government expenditure. So we recognise absolutely the need for scrutiny. And I'm glad you recognise it this morning. But in order for that scrutiny to be effective, it needs to have resources and it needs to have independence.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
is also a degree of separation. When it's done locally, you can sometimes get an element of politics involved. But that's that's fine. Okay. That's, you know, I don't mind that. And you have to be accountable to your locally elected councillors and everything else. But perhaps with members of Parliament, you know, there is that sort of slight. separation come a step back and you can look at things.
holistically .
holistically .
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
what have you done for my particular area? Do you have any further comments? Yeah, I think that's the important point. I was just thinking, I wonder whether he says this. We, we , we shouldn't be scrutinised on a project by project basis. We're involved in hundreds and hundreds of them. So how would even with members as astute as this committee, how would you understand genuinely what I'm trying to do in a place called Kirby and Liverpool when we have another place called West Kirby, which is miles away, and you wouldn't know the difference between them.
Two things. So why would you get involved in that detail? So I think we should be left to that. But we should be held. accountable for the way we spend public money. And in other words, if we're not. demonstrating additionality to you, then that's something quite rightly, you should be flagging up. Because if . We're not
Two things. So why would you get involved in that detail? So I think we should be left to that. But we should be held. accountable for the way we spend public money. And in other words, if we're not. demonstrating additionality to you, then that's something quite rightly, you should be flagging up. Because if . We're not
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
What are we there for? Thank you. Sorry. Yes, Catherine. Thank you. I think for us, there's also a really strong role for the National Audit Office and local audit and the way in which the learning, the best practice, the standard setting, is drawn from that source as well. And, you know, we would it's really important to. emphasise the importance of the local, as the mayors have done and the freedoms that devolution brings, but within a framework and within a recognised framework.
And I guess your point about the Australian model is there is something about how do we have that extra layer of. consistency as mayoral strategic authorities become more of the norm rather than an experiment? And I guess for us, there is something about the next few years and how that continues to be .
And I guess your point about the Australian model is there is something about how do we have that extra layer of. consistency as mayoral strategic authorities become more of the norm rather than an experiment? And I guess for us, there is something about the next few years and how that continues to be .
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Rupert Lowe
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Rupert Lowe
So that's the balance. We want to try and strike Rupert Lowe. Thank you Geoffrey. Well fine place Liverpool. But I think scrutiny is my concern. If you're going to devolve power I prefer to devolve it to the individual and let them make the decisions. But if we're going to devolve it to local mayors, can I just ask you, what do you think your local.
constituents think a local mayor does? Do you . Think
constituents think a local mayor does? Do you . Think
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Rupert Lowe
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Rupert Lowe
electing you to understand what they're electing you to do. You're asking me. That is my that's why I ask you the question, because I think the concept of mayors is quite new to a lot of people. And I look in shock horror when I see boards across London. That would make you think that Sadiq Khan is handing out large quantities of money himself. That's how it appears on the boards.
I don't know whether you do that in Liverpool. I'm sure you don't. I love the people of Liverpool and I'm sure you do a great job for them. But the point is I think he loses sight of whose money it is. It's not his money. It's a budget that's handed out by government to the mayors. And my concern here as I look, I sit on this committee and as Geoffrey says, this committee is here to protect the taxpayer.
It's the taxpayer who takes it on the chin the whole time. Taxpayer money is I see it being wasted on a huge scale. Around this table. I see many local government bodies have audited accounts. They have no accountability. They file their accounts late. Nobody punishes them. There are there are large data lags between the data being collected and the data being analysed. So I see all sorts of weaknesses and I just I guess that my concern for the public is if we're going to have all this devolution business,
I don't know whether you do that in Liverpool. I'm sure you don't. I love the people of Liverpool and I'm sure you do a great job for them. But the point is I think he loses sight of whose money it is. It's not his money. It's a budget that's handed out by government to the mayors. And my concern here as I look, I sit on this committee and as Geoffrey says, this committee is here to protect the taxpayer.
It's the taxpayer who takes it on the chin the whole time. Taxpayer money is I see it being wasted on a huge scale. Around this table. I see many local government bodies have audited accounts. They have no accountability. They file their accounts late. Nobody punishes them. There are there are large data lags between the data being collected and the data being analysed. So I see all sorts of weaknesses and I just I guess that my concern for the public is if we're going to have all this devolution business,
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Rupert Lowe
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Rupert Lowe
that spend, which we do with directly elected. At the moment, the government is handing you the money with with conditions. What you're saying is you want less conditionality. The question then is how do we have more scrutiny? And I'm not clear, having read this document, that we've got the necessary scrutiny. I mean, there's questions, as far as I'm concerned, is a farce. I watched Sadiq Khan. He doesn't answer any questions. The Prime Minister never answered any questions in Parliament.
So ultimately I don't think that's scrutiny. So the question, I guess, for the mayors is how can we . Get
So ultimately I don't think that's scrutiny. So the question, I guess, for the mayors is how can we . Get
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
that we need to make sure that you're held to account? I can't let that pass without defending Sadiq Khan. I think he's done an absolutely fantastic job as the mayor of London. Some of the things that Sadiq has done, I only aspire to achieving some of the great things, the amount of housing that he's built, he's bringing in . Derelict
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Let's talk about accountability. I didn't make a judgement on whether he'd failed on accountability. I think there are a number of things that we have, in. addition to what you've just said about local authorities being the. recipients of funding down to that level. We have a a more rigorous and more more.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
And to, to Parliament. And we have an assurance framework. So what we do is sign to say that if you were to give us some money, that we will spend it in these terms. Now that's that's codified. You can have a look at what we've agreed between ourselves. And so the money itself and the way it's spent is obviously something that you can you can scrutinise and you can have at the overview of.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
That's not what we do. What we do is we look to see whether we can use the government funding that we get along with our own funding and some of our local authorities, including ourselves, combined authorities, including ourselves. We have our own monies, so we make money from some of the the things that we do, the. investments that we've had, we get returns on those and which local authorities would be able to do .
And
And
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
What order? Order. Let's just let Steve answer. And then the funding is not just it. See, this is where I think there is the fundamental issue of not understanding devolution. Devolution is not just about getting money and doing what government would have done for us. It's about doing things differently and it's about growing the pot. So we're getting money from all different. sources and we're using that to build a an economy in our city region that we can.
identify four, five, six year. trends in and then build the skilled. workforce for when we get those jobs, when they come on stream, that's what planning is about. And ten year planning, which is what we've all had to do through local growth plans, means that you can. scrutinise where I'm going with the Liverpool City region.
identify four, five, six year. trends in and then build the skilled. workforce for when we get those jobs, when they come on stream, that's what planning is about. And ten year planning, which is what we've all had to do through local growth plans, means that you can. scrutinise where I'm going with the Liverpool City region.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
is quite hard. I mean. scrutinising a one year, two year three for ten years now Rupert. So you can have a look at what I've done over the last ten years and see whether I've achieved what I said I was going to achieve ten years ago. If you have a look at what I said I'd achieved ten years ago, I wanted to get even close to national averages on qualifications. We're smashing it. We're way, way beyond all of that.
I wanted to get economic growth. We've created an economy that's.
I wanted to get economic growth. We've created an economy that's.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
it was when I first started. We said we'd integrate our public transport system. I bought brand new trains that cost less. We've bought brand new trains. We had 50 odd year old trains. The new trains cost less than the old trains cost us. We've just bought a brand new ferry cross the Mersey. We've just bought brand new buses and we're bringing. There's not a chance that either a local authority .
Or. Government could have done that. That dichotomy wouldn't . Have
Or. Government could have done that. That dichotomy wouldn't . Have
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
you know, there are gateway reviews. You have to often two intense, often two intense, right. But there are certain things you have to go through in order to get permission. If you like to spend public money to make sure it's being spent correctly. And I think this kind of pushed a devolution that sometimes these things are too intense. But then there's the element of scrutiny as well to make sure you're actually spending that that money well, and you have to be held to account for your.
successes or your failures. Now, ultimately, we go through quite a lot of scrutiny locally. Local councillors will will talk to us about how things have been done. And, and believe you me, they're reported. They usually end up on leaflets as well and delivered delivered everywhere. So but that's politics right. But that that that is that is scrutiny. I would welcome the opportunity to be honest, to have scrutiny by members of Parliament.
I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing because we are spending significant amounts of public money. But ultimately I'm going to make, you know, it's not I'm certainly not going to defend Sadiq Khan in the way he's spent public money. But I will you know, I don't want to make Steve blush. One of the challenges, I think, of elected mayors. And you asked the question at the start, do you know what average constituent knows who their elected metro mayor is now? There have been examples where there have been successful Greater Manchester.
Okay. I think in Tees Valley, I think in the West Midlands, you know, you had high profile mayors and I'll put Steve down as that as well. In Liverpool, if I knocked on doors in Liverpool, a lot of people would probably know who Steve Rotherham was. One of the things that I did when I was campaigning for this job was go around and ask people if they knew who the mayor of Cambridge and Peterborough was, and very few people did.
Now, I hope that's beginning to increase slightly, but that's one of the. challenges of mayors, you know, and we've got to get the public used to the fact that there are these metro mayors in place responsible for spending huge amounts of public money, and they need to be held to account in exactly the same way that members of Parliament are.
successes or your failures. Now, ultimately, we go through quite a lot of scrutiny locally. Local councillors will will talk to us about how things have been done. And, and believe you me, they're reported. They usually end up on leaflets as well and delivered delivered everywhere. So but that's politics right. But that that that is that is scrutiny. I would welcome the opportunity to be honest, to have scrutiny by members of Parliament.
I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing because we are spending significant amounts of public money. But ultimately I'm going to make, you know, it's not I'm certainly not going to defend Sadiq Khan in the way he's spent public money. But I will you know, I don't want to make Steve blush. One of the challenges, I think, of elected mayors. And you asked the question at the start, do you know what average constituent knows who their elected metro mayor is now? There have been examples where there have been successful Greater Manchester.
Okay. I think in Tees Valley, I think in the West Midlands, you know, you had high profile mayors and I'll put Steve down as that as well. In Liverpool, if I knocked on doors in Liverpool, a lot of people would probably know who Steve Rotherham was. One of the things that I did when I was campaigning for this job was go around and ask people if they knew who the mayor of Cambridge and Peterborough was, and very few people did.
Now, I hope that's beginning to increase slightly, but that's one of the. challenges of mayors, you know, and we've got to get the public used to the fact that there are these metro mayors in place responsible for spending huge amounts of public money, and they need to be held to account in exactly the same way that members of Parliament are.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
and transparency? Just a quick comment, because I know the the local government. reporters do a great job and they do follow us around. So if we're in their patch, say I went to Crosby, which is in Sefton, they would be there, the local government reporters, and they ensure that that's posted on the BBC and other other websites. So people do get to know a little bit about it. But just picking on, on the point that I mentioned before, we still get people coming to see us about the bins.
So there is a confusion, there's no doubt about it. That's a council's job. But they'll come also for things that people would have before us gone to see their MP about. So I think there's an issue here, say, in this country. around people. understanding political systems, and maybe we should do a lot more in citizenship, and then we won't see some of the things that . We've
So there is a confusion, there's no doubt about it. That's a council's job. But they'll come also for things that people would have before us gone to see their MP about. So I think there's an issue here, say, in this country. around people. understanding political systems, and maybe we should do a lot more in citizenship, and then we won't see some of the things that . We've
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
recent years in our political system happening. I mean, I agree with the point you've made about local media and particularly local television and local and local radio media. You know, I, I think Steve was talking about in the hot seat, you know, that's something I think BBC Radio Cambridge have done a number of times with me. They don't on a regular basis. I think it's a good thing. Right. You know, and you get people ringing in and asking this, this, that and the other.
And it's about building a. profile of mayors and trying to increase their profile and so the public can hold them to account. You know, maybe if we do give more kind of powers and .
And it's about building a. profile of mayors and trying to increase their profile and so the public can hold them to account. You know, maybe if we do give more kind of powers and .
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
Then maybe mayors, and then maybe more, the public would know who they were. So we we've used up our allocation of time. Can I thank particularly our two mayors, but the two chief executives, the two new accounting officers, very much. I think we've had a very interesting session. We've learnt a lot. And you've informed our report, which we will have an uncorrected version of the transcript out in the next few days, following which we will write a report, maybe with some recommendations.
And no doubt you will want to scrutinise that, but . We've
And no doubt you will want to scrutinise that, but . We've
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
Order, order. Welcome back to the Public Accounts Committee on Monday, the 7th of September 2027. We now move on to our second panel. We've just heard from our local mayors across England and their chief executives about the impact of introducing integrated settlements, as well as the challenges of mayoral strategic authorities could face as their responsibilities grow. We will now look to explore the government's plan for advancing devolution, as set out in its Rewiring the State policy paper, and challenge Mhclg and HMT on how central government's oversight of mayoral strategic authorities can be more proportionate and better focused.
We will also be scrutinising plans for strengthening accountability arrangements for strategic authorities and press MH CLG on how central government should tackle poor performing. RSAS. So I'm going to ask you all to introduce yourselves, please. Perhaps starting with. We're very pleased to have you, Kat. I unexpected but welcome guest appearance.
We will also be scrutinising plans for strengthening accountability arrangements for strategic authorities and press MH CLG on how central government should tackle poor performing. RSAS. So I'm going to ask you all to introduce yourselves, please. Perhaps starting with. We're very pleased to have you, Kat. I unexpected but welcome guest appearance.
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
remit covers devolution and local government. Thank you. I have to say that at the timing of today's statement is very frustrating. I was provided with a copy of the statement only after my clerks asked for it, literally just before the hearing started. I really don't think this is good enough. We work very hard to ensure that our sessions are up to date and as useful as they can be for members of the public.
I expect a little more helpfulness. And next time, please, learning. I don't think it was even an hour before the start of this session. I think it was literally less than half an hour. It's really not good enough, if I may say so. I've got two front top of the session questions, perhaps starting with you, Kat, and I think I warned you of this. I think you did promise me after our joint session with PAC that you would keep me up to date with the rectification progress on capita and your department.
I expect a little more helpfulness. And next time, please, learning. I don't think it was even an hour before the start of this session. I think it was literally less than half an hour. It's really not good enough, if I may say so. I've got two front top of the session questions, perhaps starting with you, Kat, and I think I warned you of this. I think you did promise me after our joint session with PAC that you would keep me up to date with the rectification progress on capita and your department.
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
out how we plan to further update you. And we're still waiting. Still. Sorry to interrupt you. We're still getting dreadful cases. I was in my doctor's surgery for a blood test the other day, and a couple came up to me saying that there aren't sister had just died. They'd been in touch with Capita in October, and the poor aunt system was living on benefits. I have to say, when I got hold of it, it was sorted within an .
Hour, but
Hour, but
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Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
that's not good enough. They should have been able to sort it out themselves. I entirely agree with you, and I hope is, as I've said several times here and committed to Parliament, this is not acceptable and we have got to to fix this and say, let me give you an update. There were two things that capita committed to this committee and to Parliament. When they met with you in July, the first thing was to clear all the remaining workable stock cases by.
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Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
However, we are going to do our due diligence. We're looking at all of the MI and I have asked my teams to assure me that they agree with capitals conclusions. The intention is for ministers to update the House later this week through a ministerial statement. There are also two other things that we're doing, as you know. So we've got an. independent auditor looking at a number of aspects of their.
remediation plans to assure us that the remediation plan is on track, and that includes looking at their technology, the data.
remediation plans to assure us that the remediation plan is on track, and that includes looking at their technology, the data.
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
update the House as quickly as possible this week. Understood? Absolutely. And I don't want to prolong this any more, but I've got one further question. If you remember, at that joint session, there was one item that was causing a great deal of concern, and that was how you were going to deal with McLeod. And there's a, I gather, a deadline next year. So can you if you . Can't
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
Assurances on how best to respond to you. So I will write to this committee. That's very helpful. Thank you very much. Thank you for that. Will. Can you I can see the minister is still on her feet, but can you give us any sort of sense of in a pithy way, I don't want the entire statement repeated because it's a long old statement, but in a pithy sense, what this statement this afternoon means. People out there will be wondering about the elections next year.
They'll be wondering what's going to happen in their own local situation, and again, how this will affect the setup of strategic authorities. Which
They'll be wondering what's going to happen in their own local situation, and again, how this will affect the setup of strategic authorities. Which
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Chris Kane
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Chris Kane
As I can. Chair. Thank you. So if you haven't had a chance to catch up as the Secretary of State is said to the House this afternoon that following the Prime Minister's statement last week that he was prepared to look at legal local government. reorganisation and following fresh legal advice, the department has made the decision to. withdraw its decision in four cases. They are Essex, Hampshire, Norfolk and Suffolk and review a further 14.
decisions made in tranche three, which were announced in July. And included in that review is two areas where decisions have not yet been made. Those are Cambridge and Peterborough and West Sussex. The Secretary of State has been clear that she wants to assure herself that those current set of decisions are the right ones, that we will work urgently over the next few weeks. We want this to be a short, sharp exercise so we can provide clarity to the sector.
We are incredibly mindful about the amount of work that has gone into local government.
decisions made in tranche three, which were announced in July. And included in that review is two areas where decisions have not yet been made. Those are Cambridge and Peterborough and West Sussex. The Secretary of State has been clear that she wants to assure herself that those current set of decisions are the right ones, that we will work urgently over the next few weeks. We want this to be a short, sharp exercise so we can provide clarity to the sector.
We are incredibly mindful about the amount of work that has gone into local government.
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Clive Betts
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Clive Betts
I mean, you welcome to answer anything on that if you want to or go into the session. I might do because I can just add it on to the question I was going to ask and probably the capital first. You know, what steps the government are taking to ensure that the. reforms set out in general principle terms in rewiring the state are actually delivered?
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Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
And will today's statement make any difference to that? Should I perhaps start with the delivery of rewriting the state? And I'm sure we'll want to add on statement today. So the. rewiring the state. statement sets out the three areas under which we're going to be delivering a new model of government under devolution by default. And that was also set out in the First Secretary's oral statement last week.
There are three big parts to it, firstly, supporting local leaders, and that involves a range of actions to empower and to provide local leaders with the resources, the decision making and also the.
There are three big parts to it, firstly, supporting local leaders, and that involves a range of actions to empower and to provide local leaders with the resources, the decision making and also the.
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Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
It also looks at control over local tax revenues, and I'm sure we'll come on to some of the fiscal devolution questions and accountability issues that you've got. And thirdly, strong local institutions. All of that has significant. implications for the working of central. government and also the civil service and arm's length bodies. And part of the work that we're doing now is to make sure that there are full, detailed.
implementation plans, which will be set out in the white Paper, which the government has set out, will be coming over the course of the next two months or so. So I can go into any any detail in any of those areas. There's a lot of work that's currently underway. I suppose one of the most immediate things that I would highlight is we have. reorganised the centre of. government to be a much more.
strategic centre of government, with the creation of the office of the Prime Minister and Cabinet. We've also created a number ten North as part of the engine room for delivering the.
implementation plans, which will be set out in the white Paper, which the government has set out, will be coming over the course of the next two months or so. So I can go into any any detail in any of those areas. There's a lot of work that's currently underway. I suppose one of the most immediate things that I would highlight is we have. reorganised the centre of. government to be a much more.
strategic centre of government, with the creation of the office of the Prime Minister and Cabinet. We've also created a number ten North as part of the engine room for delivering the.
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Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
we won't know the details until sometime in the future. Well, there's quite a lot of detail in the. blueprint and you know, as much detail as we could put in there at that point in time. You know, we're about six weeks into the delivery of that blueprint. The details will be fleshed out with full. implementation plans very shortly. And as we are doing things, we are. communicating and updating the House accordingly.
And I hope the First . Secretary.
And I hope the First . Secretary.
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Chris Kane
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Chris Kane
Statement last week was helpful to put a bit of flesh on the bones and chair. I failed to answer your question. Sorry about the implications for for devolution. I mean, the straight answer is we can carry on. Whatever the outcome of the review, we can carry on with setting up mayoral strategic authorities in all the. places that we have committed to do so, and indeed those impacted by local government reorganisation. So to give you a couple of.
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
which is a two tier area with a mayor. Well, you see, you came up with a one unitary solution for Gloucestershire, which everybody was delighted about. I think everybody will be tearing their hair out tonight. You want to then move on to a mayoral strategic authority, which is going to be very tricky in Gloucestershire because we have various difficult options who we're going to combine with. How is this timetable . Really going
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Chris Kane
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Chris Kane
work when you want that all done by the end of 2028? And it's not straightforward. Nothing in local government reorganisation is straightforward. There are, you know. opinions are rightly extremely strong and often divided. My only point is it is entirely. possible to do devolution, have enter into devolution agreements with unitary areas and two tier areas. We've done both in the past.
We can do both in the future and nothing in. Today's announcement means that devolution for Gloucestershire or any other . Part of the
We can do both in the future and nothing in. Today's announcement means that devolution for Gloucestershire or any other . Part of the
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Chris Kane
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Chris Kane
don't know what the constituent parts are going to be? So, so you need to you need to know if you like the outer perimeter, you do need to know that. Let's take the East Midlands, which is the as you members of the committee be well aware, is two tier government currently in Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, Derby and Derbyshire. So you need to know the outer perimeter. I think we have a pretty good understanding and the vast majority of areas of where that is likely to be.
That's not always settled, but . Where, you
That's not always settled, but . Where, you
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Chris Kane
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Chris Kane
be, how can you conform this authority? Well, it'd be perfectly possible for in a hypothetical. situation for to have a county combined authority, as they're called. So in a two tier area over a geography, let's say there are eight councils, including the district in that area. It would be perfectly possible for local government reorganisation to take place. And the final number of councils to be four, making up the constituent members in the new .
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
But it's perfectly possible to do well, what you've just said is that Gloucestershire could become its own mayoral strategic authority with the seven constituent authorities that we've got at the moment. So why on earth are we going to an interim step of one unitary authority? Why don't we go . Straight to
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Chris Kane
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Chris Kane
mayor or a strategic authority? The government has got governments got two objectives, hasn't it? One, two. unitaries local government. And, you know, views will differ on whether that is a good, bad or indifferent thing to do. But that is one objective. And second, to set up combined authorities, which are multiple local authorities over a functional economic area, to start to take. responsibility for planning.
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Chris Kane
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Chris Kane
The adult education budget and the like. So we. But both of those are objectives. We are policy position currently is that we don't have a mayor over a single local authority. That's been a policy decision that ministers have made in the past. We want to see councils combine over a bigger travel to work area that also resonates with people's identity. So .
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Clive Betts
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Clive Betts
decision that ministers have made. I'm puzzled. But anyway, one follow up point, and that's about the devolution itself. If you don't know what the first tier authorities are going to be, you can't begin to. determine what's going to be devolved to them, can you? Unless, of course, there isn't . Going to be
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Chris Kane
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Chris Kane
Yeah, I think you can decide what's going to be. Let's let let's take the example of Cambridge and Peterborough. You just had the mayor in the room. We have said that the local government reorganisation in Cambridge and Peterborough is subject to a review. It is entirely possible that. simultaneously Cambridge and Peterborough, Cambridgeshire and Peterborough has become an established mayoral strategic.
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Clive Betts
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Clive Betts
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Chris Kane
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Chris Kane
devolving any powers to those first level authorities, local authorities? Yes. Well, in the as you'll be familiar in the rewiring the statement document, we are really, really clear. And this is the kind of lesson from Manchester that good. The most effective combined authorities are just that. They are a partnership with councils, with local governments. So the the rewiring the state document sets out that we want to do much more on sustainable local government, including a higher proportion of business rates retained.
So councils . Have a
So councils . Have a
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Chris Kane
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Chris Kane
Particular powers are you looking to devolve? There aren't any, are there? Well, I think, I think I think you I don't think you are giving credit to how the majority of mayoral strategic authorities work in practice. What happens is this is not a strong executive power from the mayor. It is a partnership and a. collaboration between a number of different councils. So, for example, when. 16 to 19 goes, that's a commitment made in the document.
What you often see and you've seen in the Manchester example is a particular local . Authority
What you often see and you've seen in the Manchester example is a particular local . Authority
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Chris Kane
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Chris Kane
terms of particular powers to individual councils. The rewiring the state is. largely focused on mayoral strategic authorities. I think the I think it is inevitable that as a result of that, councils will take on more. responsibilities and more powers. But that is that is a that is a decision to be made locally. Not. But not least because the voting . Arrangements
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Sarah Olney
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Sarah Olney
Thanks. Thank you. Clive. Sarah Olney, please. Thank you. Chair. So in the English Devolution Community Empowerment Act. 2026 established the Law Foundation, strategic authorities, including all non mayoral combined authorities and combined county authorities, along with any local authority designated as a strategic authority without a mayor and mayoral strategic authorities, including the Greater London Authority and all mayoral combined authorities and mayoral combined county authorities.
So the government have said that mayoral strategic authorities will have access to a greater suite of powers. But how will you ensure that foundation, strategic authorities and MSAs without established status are not disadvantaged? So we've clearly got a patchwork of different kinds of strategic authorities across the. They've all come into being at different times and in different ways. Yeah, but you are only making provision for greater powers for . The
So the government have said that mayoral strategic authorities will have access to a greater suite of powers. But how will you ensure that foundation, strategic authorities and MSAs without established status are not disadvantaged? So we've clearly got a patchwork of different kinds of strategic authorities across the. They've all come into being at different times and in different ways. Yeah, but you are only making provision for greater powers for . The
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Chris Kane
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Chris Kane
wouldn't that's not my. That's not my language. That's that's yours. But we are very clear in the document. And it says that the government thinks that there are benefits to having strong executive power and to having a single figurehead. I realize there may be a divergence of views, but that is nonetheless ministers views. Therefore, a share of local income tax, to take an.
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Chris Kane
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Chris Kane
Forward and bribe, sorry to use that language. But again, not, not not language that I would use. There's an incentive, I think is probably the language I would use. If places want to come forward and they want to have a mayor, then we've written out to every place that doesn't and said, come and talk to us. Let's find a way to establish it. If you prefer not to have a mayor and you'd prefer to have a foundational strategic authority, that is your prerogative.
Nothing will be forced on anyone. But if your question to me, is there a different level of power and responsibility . For places
Nothing will be forced on anyone. But if your question to me, is there a different level of power and responsibility . For places
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Sarah Olney
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Sarah Olney
with a mayor and without a mayor, the answer to that question is yes, there is. Are you asking when you say you've written to those places, local authority asking local authorities. So if I if I may just just use the London example as a as a London MP, we go all the way back to 2000 with our mayor and our. But what what I find is that it's not anything to do with the local authorities. They're not working closely with the mayor.
Can you just perhaps, you know. So so we don't get, you know, my local.
Can you just perhaps, you know. So so we don't get, you know, my local.
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Chris Kane
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Chris Kane
that London is similarly disadvantaged? And what can we do about that? I'd certainly agree. London is different to the combined authorities that exist elsewhere in the country. With the make up of the Assembly. It is not a combined authority, like every other devolution agreement that's been reached since Greater Manchester in. 2014 has a different set of arrangements. They are set out, as you well know, in the.
1999 act. That's a big bit of legislation. So I agree that there is a different . Role for
1999 act. That's a big bit of legislation. So I agree that there is a different . Role for
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Chris Kane
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Chris Kane
Okay. Thank you Sarah. Chris, please. Thank you. Chair, can I talk about funding flexibilities, please? Any report, paragraph. 1.16 bodies receiving an integrated settlement with full flexibility in how they spend the funding within each theme and some flexibility across themes. Then I want to talk about the Rewiring the state policy paper that was published in July that says , we therefore agreed a set of immediate steps that we are taking now.
These include greater. flexibility to deploy funding within existing integrated settlements. So that is a long winded way of me getting to the question of what new funding. flexibilities are you going to provide the authorities, and when will they be able to use them? That's probably a question for James. Yes. Thank you. I was feeling lonely out here. Yeah. So it's worth starting at this year.
This last year. 2526 has been the first full year of integrated settlement funding. Flexibility is a very, very big change in local and.
These include greater. flexibility to deploy funding within existing integrated settlements. So that is a long winded way of me getting to the question of what new funding. flexibilities are you going to provide the authorities, and when will they be able to use them? That's probably a question for James. Yes. Thank you. I was feeling lonely out here. Yeah. So it's worth starting at this year.
This last year. 2526 has been the first full year of integrated settlement funding. Flexibility is a very, very big change in local and.
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Chris Kane
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Chris Kane
So the first big change is multi-year, not annual, which this committee would have heard a lot about over the last decades. And the second big change is a single fund. And the. flexibilities within that are that you can flex money between the six pillars that I think are in the Nao report. You can move. 10% of your funding between those. You can move all your money from resource into capital spend and.
10% the other way. And there's forward flex into future years. So that that's the structure that the act and the integrated settlements that we've put in place have under and. rewiring the state has said we're we're happy to consider.
10% the other way. And there's forward flex into future years. So that that's the structure that the act and the integrated settlements that we've put in place have under and. rewiring the state has said we're we're happy to consider.
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Chris Kane
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Chris Kane
And then the spending review, which will set future years, are spending, which is due next year will will do the sort of quite a bit of the delivery of the how to date for spending views and set, but it's due next year. And whenever you do, more or greater. flexibility also introduce greater risk. How will you manage that additional risk? So I think we've got three ways. Three buckets, if you like, of, of, of, of greater risk.
We think that more. devolution is the right thing to do and we think it will lead to better outcomes. But the checks and balances are in the system are a greater. accountability at different levels, which I'm sure we'll come on to, but greater accountability, including local scrutiny committees and local accounting officers. The checks into into government are on the performance side. So this is the outcomes. framework and performance boards.
And ultimately we have powers to intervene if we feel the risks have gone too far via MH CLG. So those are the the buckets. And it's. important we think it's the right policy to to do further devolution, but it's right to proceed with with greater accountability and audit as we do it. Are you expecting many big changes to the way that you're managing the risk or just a general evolution? I mean, devolution, yeah, I mean, I think I think the the major change is that we are.
devolving a big chunk of funding and then the tax assignment will come in to a local and regional level. And I think the big change is the capability and.
We think that more. devolution is the right thing to do and we think it will lead to better outcomes. But the checks and balances are in the system are a greater. accountability at different levels, which I'm sure we'll come on to, but greater accountability, including local scrutiny committees and local accounting officers. The checks into into government are on the performance side. So this is the outcomes. framework and performance boards.
And ultimately we have powers to intervene if we feel the risks have gone too far via MH CLG. So those are the the buckets. And it's. important we think it's the right policy to to do further devolution, but it's right to proceed with with greater accountability and audit as we do it. Are you expecting many big changes to the way that you're managing the risk or just a general evolution? I mean, devolution, yeah, I mean, I think I think the the major change is that we are.
devolving a big chunk of funding and then the tax assignment will come in to a local and regional level. And I think the big change is the capability and.
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Chris Kane
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Chris Kane
Including to do. accountability and audit at that level so that local and regional voters can be assured of the accountability of the money that's been spent in their area, as well as having. accountability back into Parliament and the government. But I think the big change, which comes with local scrutiny. committees and local accounting officers, and indeed the build up further of . The
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
throughout the rest of the hearing. But thank you for that just now. Thank you, Chris. James, if I could ask you to different financial questions, one is to clear up what I was asking in the last session. And it's this, and it's referred to on page 25, paragraph 2.14. And figure four. Afterwards, multiyear settlements. Yeah. You've given them a multiyear settlements according to figure four.
Nice colored graphs for four years. But lo and behold, they've got this multi-year settlement for 267 and 278. But then when it comes to 289 and 29 30th May . Be. Examined, re-examined during 2027.
Nice colored graphs for four years. But lo and behold, they've got this multi-year settlement for 267 and 278. But then when it comes to 289 and 29 30th May . Be. Examined, re-examined during 2027.
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Chris Kane
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Chris Kane
28, 28. 29 for resource. That's what we set at the. 2005 spending review three years ahead. And then you use that last year. 2829 as the base from which you roll forward future spending views. So the next spending review will then roll that forward on capital. We do it a bit longer. And I think the local level is four years of thing there. And that's the same as we got as we have for the Department of.
Education or any other department. So the way we do spending reviews, and it's one of the more. multiyear that you'll get anywhere in the world is that we do we do the spending review, do three years ahead on resource , longer on capital. And that's the same for this tier here.
Education or any other department. So the way we do spending reviews, and it's one of the more. multiyear that you'll get anywhere in the world is that we do we do the spending review, do three years ahead on resource , longer on capital. And that's the same for this tier here.
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Chris Kane
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Chris Kane
I'm being clear . Plus plus a plus a base year for the next for the next. So m a so if I'll try, say for a department, let's take Mhclg. We give them their resource budget three years hence they Mhclg know what their funding is up to. 2829 when we when we do the next spending review next year, we'll start with that year and then we'll add further years on. So obviously Mhclg can't devolve or allocate money after that because of resource because they don't have that money.
The big change at the regional level is, is we've is for the this is the first time last year they had this. multi-year settlement. And I mean, this committee has been excellent on this. If you look at what happened before, it was really sub optimal. You basically had a whole the whole regional and local tier facing into central government and having to bid often or sit with budgets
The big change at the regional level is, is we've is for the this is the first time last year they had this. multi-year settlement. And I mean, this committee has been excellent on this. If you look at what happened before, it was really sub optimal. You basically had a whole the whole regional and local tier facing into central government and having to bid often or sit with budgets
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Blake Stephenson
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Blake Stephenson
the reform and change in this last year has , I would assert, the biggest in certainly. regional and to a certain extent, local government funding for a long time. And that. multi-year settlement is one aspect to it. Also, the fact that they have a single budget where you can flex money, as I said to Mr. Kane, is another. So it's a really big change that we've made on on funding flexibility.
And it comes actually including from this committee,
And it comes actually including from this committee,
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
From the reality that we thought what went before it was really suboptimal. Now, that's very helpful. Thank you. Can I go on to fiscal devolution? Yes. And just ask how that's going to work. I think today has been mentioned income tax and rates retention. But could it go further than that? If you were a strategic authority and you wanted to encourage employment measures, you might want to do some different fiscal measures to encourage .
That
That
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Blake Stephenson
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Blake Stephenson
employment? Or is that going to be without outwith their competence? That is out with their confident competence at the moment? Obviously, what what's devolved is a matter for policy decisions for for ministers. Obviously, we've had the experience of of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland that has come before , as you've seen this. So you can see it there. What is being slated for. devolution on the tax side of things is roughly three areas at the moment.
We've talked about business rates, retention. The second one is income tax. It's worth stressing that that is an assignment. of income tax raised in that area, to that area. And the amount of grant given taken away. It's not the devolution of rates or thresholds of that tax. The third is a smaller change at the moment which is the overnight visitor levy. So those are the tax things.
You could go further. You certainly could. And those would be policy. decisions for ministers and to a certain extent. Scotland,
We've talked about business rates, retention. The second one is income tax. It's worth stressing that that is an assignment. of income tax raised in that area, to that area. And the amount of grant given taken away. It's not the devolution of rates or thresholds of that tax. The third is a smaller change at the moment which is the overnight visitor levy. So those are the tax things.
You could go further. You certainly could. And those would be policy. decisions for ministers and to a certain extent. Scotland,
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Blake Stephenson
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Blake Stephenson
government decide how much they should retain and how much they should be redistributed? So when you do an assignment of tax, like the income tax proposals that we have, you have to. basically decide on three things the the level, the amount you're going to assign. So roughly in this case, you've got you link it to the integrated settlement. The second thing you have to decide is the. redistribution element you want to put into that.
entirely based on the fact that need is different in different areas. And the starting position is different in different areas. And then the third thing you have to decide, which I think colleagues before us were talking about, is the growth.
entirely based on the fact that need is different in different areas. And the starting position is different in different areas. And then the third thing you have to decide, which I think colleagues before us were talking about, is the growth.
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Blake Stephenson
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Blake Stephenson
Which is essentially as the tax base, we will be giving an incentive that that means that as the tax base grows, the area keeps the upside. But you have to work out how much that is the case. It's quite an intricate thing. As I said, we've done it in devolved countries and the fiscal roadmap we're due to publish on, in and around the budget is the is the document. We're saying we'll we'll set out some of those decisions.
It doesn't come into play until April 2028. Thank you. If I may just very briefly . On that,
It doesn't come into play until April 2028. Thank you. If I may just very briefly . On that,
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
the only thing I'd add is I think that's exactly right. We we do have some experience of doing this because we do it in the business rate system. Exactly the same set of choices that James describes. How often do you reset? What's the growth incentive? What's the fairness argument? But and it's a smaller scale. So I'm not saying it's not a big and ambitious reform. It's hard to do.
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Blake Stephenson
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Blake Stephenson
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Blake Stephenson
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Blake Stephenson
The, you know, the way a spending system works. And I think our multi-year assessment actually is, is superior in terms of length of settlement to other countries. You you want to give long term certainty, but you do have to trade that off against whether you can be certain about how much tax revenue and other borrowing you're going to be in. So we we think we've got the right element. We go a lot.
We go a lot further on. capital because we recognise that people have to take some longer term decisions in capital . Funding, But it's a very big change in a short period of time. It might also just sorry, very briefly, just to add, I suppose it's also where there is a link with what we were just talking about with the chair on fiscal devolution, which is while the advance to multi-year integrated settlements was a step towards multiyear, where previously it was only a year.
So will the allocation of a share of income tax be an even more certain and long term, long term stream of revenue? So once that takes place in. 2028 for MSAs, that will be much greater certainty even than . The
We go a lot further on. capital because we recognise that people have to take some longer term decisions in capital . Funding, But it's a very big change in a short period of time. It might also just sorry, very briefly, just to add, I suppose it's also where there is a link with what we were just talking about with the chair on fiscal devolution, which is while the advance to multi-year integrated settlements was a step towards multiyear, where previously it was only a year.
So will the allocation of a share of income tax be an even more certain and long term, long term stream of revenue? So once that takes place in. 2028 for MSAs, that will be much greater certainty even than . The
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Blake Stephenson
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Blake Stephenson
delegation, isn't it really? Well. Well, no, particularly because of what Will's been saying there. Once you assign income tax to an area, you're you're reducing the grant equivalently. So you're no longer saying you have to wait for grant from above to be allocated to you. You can be more certain that you will permanently be getting a share of the tax that is raised in your . Area to
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
spend. So that's quite a. significant change in terms of the the powers that are going to be really new powers and new. flexibilities for strategic authorities. How are we going to make sure that spending departments, the permanent secretaries there that want to keep a grip on their money going to strategic authorities because they don't be very happy? Oh, they've, you know, the they're going to spend some money that was meant for .
A new
A new
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Blake Stephenson
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Blake Stephenson
school on a railway station, because that's the decision the authority's taken. Yeah. I mean, I mean, the pushing down more. flexibility to local and regional level has been something that we've been pushing for a little while. Our view is that it is indeed better for outcomes that these decisions are taken locally, not regionally. And we've made some progress in. reducing ring fences and all the rest of it. But the answer is that departments are are going to go that way in terms of the accountability.
The Permanent Secretary of MH CLG is accountable for the system, the the whole system and how that works. The individual accounting officers for departments are accountable for the policies they're pursuing, including through that route. But if you take your example on schools, you know, obviously the local authorities or or other oversee quite a lot of the decisions on schools and have done for years, mainly so, so permanent secretaries like myself are used to working and collaborating through a whole host of different structures to deliver .
Their things.
The Permanent Secretary of MH CLG is accountable for the system, the the whole system and how that works. The individual accounting officers for departments are accountable for the policies they're pursuing, including through that route. But if you take your example on schools, you know, obviously the local authorities or or other oversee quite a lot of the decisions on schools and have done for years, mainly so, so permanent secretaries like myself are used to working and collaborating through a whole host of different structures to deliver .
Their things.
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Blake Stephenson
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Blake Stephenson
things that they're responsible for, they have, but that won't happen in future isn't going to happen. But we think that's the right thing to do. Because if in the. past where you have said, well, we'll give you the money, a local authority or, or MSA, but you must only spend it on this explicit thing. And you've got to tell us, do 45 performance measures against it, and it's ring fenced so you can't move around. You multiply that by every department doing that multiple times.
And the local authority and the mayoral. authority just is just in receipt of a vast number of penny pockets of pots with things. And we think it's much better. system and it's better for local outcomes and therefore better for growth and therefore better for public services that we do that. I think the Nao . Report
And the local authority and the mayoral. authority just is just in receipt of a vast number of penny pockets of pots with things. And we think it's much better. system and it's better for local outcomes and therefore better for growth and therefore better for public services that we do that. I think the Nao . Report
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
acquiesces in. That will give you a good example. So and this is why fiscal devolution is such a game changer, because currently, if I'm the chief executive of a. council and I raise a pound of council tax that I want to spend on homelessness and rough sleeping, then I have pretty much autonomy on how to do that in conjunction with my leader. If you also get a pound of grant from.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
as you put it, permanent secretaries in Whitehall, right. Are you sure that your colleagues are really bought into this and and see it as something they're enthusiastic as he probably really enthusiastic. Something about them arguing for for years, actually, it's been a convert somewhere along the road.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Across the whole of cabinet. And obviously, as accounting officers, our job is to deliver the policy of government. And I think there's some really good. examples here of where actually taking that accountability and that control away from government leads to better outcomes. The rewiring the state document sets out some of the big delegations we've already changed on transport. So that is a really good example of central government saying, let's lift our controls.
Let's make sure that local leaders can take more decisions. And we're very grateful for the way in which . They'll be
Let's make sure that local leaders can take more decisions. And we're very grateful for the way in which . They'll be
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
should be spent on. In what way do you want to do that? Yeah, sure. So yes, there has been pushback. And one of the things that we're looking at in line with the ambitions set out in the cabinet statement is ways of streamlining the outcomes framework. So making them a sort of higher level, if you like, and actually creating greater. flexibility for MSAs. We do recognise that the outcomes framework as they exist at the moment for the current integrated.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Which will enable kind of stronger level of scrutiny into Parliament and locally. We'll come back to that. But I can remember back to the. comprehensive framework assessments that were done in the . 1990s and after, you know, which. incredibly time consuming were stored away in in the Department of the Treasury, all these. metrics and statistics that no one took any . Notice of, as
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
compared to that, that we've achieved. But it's definitely not job done. I think it's probably also worth adding very briefly that the I mean, this is where there's huge alignment between the report. Obviously, no colleagues used to producing reports at times of government policy change, but this one in particular coming out just as we switched administration and had the statement. So particular challenges for the for the team, but actually huge alignment there between what the report says about the outcome frameworks being that the right direction of travel.
But as you just described, in some cases still too restrictive, still too focused on outputs over outcomes. And what the cabinet statement said about that at exactly the same time. And while, of course we're telling you that it is in the white paper to come later this autumn, that you'll see more detail on how we'll put that into effect. I think it's also true that, to your point about agreeing it with the MSAs, that white paper process itself is being hugely collaborative and probably more collaborative than white paper processes that we might tend to see in the way that we're constructing it and running it .
With the MSAs, mayors and chief execs directly through
But as you just described, in some cases still too restrictive, still too focused on outputs over outcomes. And what the cabinet statement said about that at exactly the same time. And while, of course we're telling you that it is in the white paper to come later this autumn, that you'll see more detail on how we'll put that into effect. I think it's also true that, to your point about agreeing it with the MSAs, that white paper process itself is being hugely collaborative and probably more collaborative than white paper processes that we might tend to see in the way that we're constructing it and running it .
With the MSAs, mayors and chief execs directly through
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
through number ten North and with Mhclg. If I could just very briefly add, I mean, the whole point of number ten North is to engage with MSAs and with local leaders in a completely different way. And at the first National Economic Council, we had the. mayoral leaders there around the table engaged in the policy formation of the rewiring, the state policy statement. They are talking to us constantly. So this is a completely different way of shortening the.
connections between central . Government
connections between central . Government
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
policy and what's happening at local level. Just to follow up questions and the mindset of permanent secretaries, the now make clear on paragraph 17, page 11, and this is outcome frameworks that the Department of Transport initially proposed 44 indicators, which it then later revised down to 21 following negotiations with MSAs. Who has the final say? I mean, clearly the mindset of the Department of Transport at that point was we need a lot more control.
And then somehow they've decided they don't need all that control. I understand the Department of Transport has the biggest amount of money, but nevertheless, there's got to be . A certain
And then somehow they've decided they don't need all that control. I understand the Department of Transport has the biggest amount of money, but nevertheless, there's got to be . A certain
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
It's their personal judgment in how they're using taxpayers money. Under managing public money. We're directly accountable to this committee and Parliament as a whole. And that is an example where there is open. engagement about the competing priorities within a large, high risk financial system, working with the mayors to work out what the right answer is in managing financial risk. I think that's a really healthy. example of us having that open debate and coming to a proportionate answer.
So I really do believe the mindset of permanent secretaries is proportionate control to the risks that we are. responsible to the . Public
So I really do believe the mindset of permanent secretaries is proportionate control to the risks that we are. responsible to the . Public
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Tristan Osborne
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Tristan Osborne
Thank you. Very helpful. Thank you. Tris, please. Yes. So my colleague Clive raised about the local accounting officers. So a couple of questions, if I may, and also utilizing some of the feedback we've had from the mayors previously. Obviously this report in. 3.9 is more open ended than in the rewiring the states, where it specifically says that CEOs should be the local accounting officers.
Is that your. understanding of where we're heading in terms of the white paper, just because this report is a bit more open ended in terms of whose. responsibility it would be. So . I just
Is that your. understanding of where we're heading in terms of the white paper, just because this report is a bit more open ended in terms of whose. responsibility it would be. So . I just
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Tristan Osborne
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Tristan Osborne
to be sustainably accountable for the use of public funds. Okay. And that's a very simple question, simple answer. The second one is in terms of the engagement with existing MSAs, obviously, that was a question again, I asked of the mayors. They seem to be quite relaxed. If that's the approach that you wish to go down, are we still on in terms of with recent change? Obviously the announcement today, are we still on course with the time.
frames around this? I know you alluded earlier to say that this wasn't our timeframes on this were. unrelated to the LGR changes.
frames around this? I know you alluded earlier to say that this wasn't our timeframes on this were. unrelated to the LGR changes.
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Tristan Osborne
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Tristan Osborne
Desire drive impatience to get this done. Okay. And my third question is just linked to parliamentary scrutiny. Again, I challenged both the executive officers and MP, a former MPs, as the two mayors were around this. Obviously on figure five, it does define how external assurance would be undertaken. I think the two parts of this. First of all, within the document itself, there is weakness in the local government sector around audit that has been well.
documented in previous history. So I just my question two parts. First of all, can we assume that the the these bodies will be appropriately audited, perhaps by the NIO or perhaps by an external auditor like councils are undertaken. We have problems with local councils in terms of audits, which take many years, and there's a long standing complaint in the sector audit around how long it's taking to audit. And then secondly, just around the parliamentary role.
Obviously, this committee does have overarching responsibility around public accounts. We are very busy. So have we looked at other types of models similar to.
documented in previous history. So I just my question two parts. First of all, can we assume that the the these bodies will be appropriately audited, perhaps by the NIO or perhaps by an external auditor like councils are undertaken. We have problems with local councils in terms of audits, which take many years, and there's a long standing complaint in the sector audit around how long it's taking to audit. And then secondly, just around the parliamentary role.
Obviously, this committee does have overarching responsibility around public accounts. We are very busy. So have we looked at other types of models similar to.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
the financial risk and controls around some of the spending. Excellent questions. So on audit, I mean, I've been in front of this committee quite a few times, as has James, on all the heinous problems in local audit. I mean, I would say it's improving. It's getting better. In 22, 23, 1% of audit opinions were published on time.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
That number was 91%. Now a fair number of those are still disqualified. I'm not saying this is like game, set and match. It's time to declare victory. Absolutely not. There's a lot of work to do, but it is an improving situation. And yes, the answer to your question is yes. The local audit office will engage with mayoral strategic authorities, as they do with local authorities. We should think of them as part of the same system.
And the department engages particularly with value for money reports, public interest reports that auditors produce, even though we haven't cracked it but are making progress on audit. Secondly, on what are we doing on scrutiny and accountability? As you say, this committee or any other parliamentary committee can call anyone that they want to. The things I would add are that the English. Devolution Act that got gained royal assent in April makes provisions for local scrutiny committees.
They are. They are explicitly tasked with looking at value for money. They are made up of local councillors and up to 40% independence. They are incentivised to take expertise from external parties. If a mayor weren't to turn up six times during the course of the year, the mayor would lose their job. So there is proper scrutiny being put in the system. In the current legislation that Parliament has just passed, and we need to lay secondary.
legislation in the next few months to ensure that those scrutiny committees are up and running by April next year. But we are also clear that in rewiring the state for the massive transfer of power that is going to that is going to happen, that we need to do . More in
And the department engages particularly with value for money reports, public interest reports that auditors produce, even though we haven't cracked it but are making progress on audit. Secondly, on what are we doing on scrutiny and accountability? As you say, this committee or any other parliamentary committee can call anyone that they want to. The things I would add are that the English. Devolution Act that got gained royal assent in April makes provisions for local scrutiny committees.
They are. They are explicitly tasked with looking at value for money. They are made up of local councillors and up to 40% independence. They are incentivised to take expertise from external parties. If a mayor weren't to turn up six times during the course of the year, the mayor would lose their job. So there is proper scrutiny being put in the system. In the current legislation that Parliament has just passed, and we need to lay secondary.
legislation in the next few months to ensure that those scrutiny committees are up and running by April next year. But we are also clear that in rewiring the state for the massive transfer of power that is going to that is going to happen, that we need to do . More in
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Tristan Osborne
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Tristan Osborne
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
for fixing it even if I didn't create it. Thank you Rob, thank you very much. Will you say that it's not going to affect the Strategic Mayoral Authority's programme? It may be not, but nevertheless, I've got to quote to you what the LGA put out in a statement just now, and I'm quoting from their statement. Councils across the country will hold different views on the local government reorganisation LGR programme for what it means for their areas and the announcement of today's review, unless they go on to say.
But there is no excuse for the government's mishandling of this process. Denise announcement, however, will, of course, significant uncertainty after councils have invested scarce public money and countless hours in the government's local government reorganisation programme. So, I mean, this is clearly going to be meeting with dismay. I mean, I indicated to you earlier what I think people in Gloucestershire will be saying . About
But there is no excuse for the government's mishandling of this process. Denise announcement, however, will, of course, significant uncertainty after councils have invested scarce public money and countless hours in the government's local government reorganisation programme. So, I mean, this is clearly going to be meeting with dismay. I mean, I indicated to you earlier what I think people in Gloucestershire will be saying . About
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
it, because I know how many meetings I've had with them and how much work has gone into all this. And the Secretary of State was very clear about that in her statement to the House. We don't we don't. underestimate how much blood, sweat and tears has gone into getting us this far, how difficult it's been. And I'm aware of that from my own engagement with councils up and down the land. So that is taken as a given.
We take that incredibly seriously. That's why we want to do this piece of work quickly and get back and tell the House the conclusions of our review. But that doesn't come as a surprise to me, I'm afraid. I know just how much effort has gone into it. Nonetheless, ministers have. This new administration has wanted to satisfy itself that the current arrangements are the right one. Hence our taking the decision to pause . And
We take that incredibly seriously. That's why we want to do this piece of work quickly and get back and tell the House the conclusions of our review. But that doesn't come as a surprise to me, I'm afraid. I know just how much effort has gone into it. Nonetheless, ministers have. This new administration has wanted to satisfy itself that the current arrangements are the right one. Hence our taking the decision to pause . And
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Oh, sorry. It's actually for the make up of the new councils will then require secondary legislation. Yes, as we've done in Surrey. But that's not a that's not we're not asking Parliament for a new power. That will be us saying secondary, I forget, I'm afraid, whether it's affirmative or not, for for the kind of final make up of councils. But we are well used to doing that. That's not a.
We don't need primary legislation or something like that to give . Us
We don't need primary legislation or something like that to give . Us
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Matt Turmaine
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Matt Turmaine
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Thank you. I might ask Will's to start and I'll add. So to be really honest, I don't think we have a fixed view on this. And I think it's something that we want to engage with Parliament on. And in a sense, we're not the best people to say how MPs. experience should be utilized. But you see it there in black and white. There's a commitment that members of Parliament have to be involved, both in terms of.
accountability and decision making, so ministers will want to engage with members of Parliament over the coming weeks and months, and let us try and set out a plan in. conjunction with Members of Parliament as to how we do it. But there isn't in my bottom drawer somewhere a kind of. This is the best way . To
accountability and decision making, so ministers will want to engage with members of Parliament over the coming weeks and months, and let us try and set out a plan in. conjunction with Members of Parliament as to how we do it. But there isn't in my bottom drawer somewhere a kind of. This is the best way . To
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Matt Turmaine
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Matt Turmaine
engage with Parliament because we. I think we need to ask Parliament that. I think so that's interesting. I mean, any ideas that you have will definitely be interesting to hear about across the across the board, because it can be quite challenging for MPs to. engage from a. scrutinising level with their local authorities as they exist at the moment. Obviously, I appreciate they're going through a stage of. transformation and there'll be something new when this is envisaged to happen.
But .
But .
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Any sort of with the experience that you've got any pointers or. Sure. I mean, one thing that's in the pipeline and it's not it's not being lived yet because we are doing the regulations for local scrutiny committees. But once they're up and running, MPs will be able to sort of make submissions to their local scrutiny committees , where they have.
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
operation of the MSA or lines of inquiry that they would want the local scrutiny committee to follow. So that will be that will be a sort of a new a new route into that. strengthened local scrutiny committee. I would also just flag like as we are, as we are thinking about the role of local accounting officers, like we all said, the sort of the options are quite broad and we're genuinely, genuinely sort of wanting to engage and understand the best route here.
But there are there are sort of there are different models that you could apply in relation to, you know, this sort of committee or the way . That
But there are there are sort of there are different models that you could apply in relation to, you know, this sort of committee or the way . That
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Committees would be an effective way of doing that? Do you think, you know, we actually the model of local scrutiny committee is akin to a local public accounts committee and the way in which it doesn't currently match up to the model that some people talk about is insofar as the scope of public spending, currently within the purview of a local scrutiny committee is limited to that which flows through the mayoral strategic authority and associated bodies like development corporations.
As we go further with.
As we go further with.
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
And more powers come within the remit of the strategic authority that will sort of naturally make the local scrutiny committee more of a sort of a true L PAC model, where you see the sort of a fuller sort of gamut, if you like, of public spending falling within the scope of that committee. So I think it . Will
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
further we go down the devolution journey. Okay. Interesting. Thank you. I add one point to that directly, which is just I suppose we're also conscious and you see this in the cabinet statement with the reference to the now of just how important for the ability of this committee to scrutinise government departments. The support you get from the now is to the ability to do that effectively. And how, of course, hearings are preceded by reports.
And so one of the things that we're also thinking about is how, in the context of local scrutiny committees, can we make sure that the right support is provided to those committees to have, you know, a sort of similar sense of infrastructure and support to enable them to scrutinise effectively? That can't mean suddenly asking the Nao to replicate their function directly for those authorities. That wouldn't work. But that is precisely the discussion that the cabinet statement sort of indicates we .
Want to have
And so one of the things that we're also thinking about is how, in the context of local scrutiny committees, can we make sure that the right support is provided to those committees to have, you know, a sort of similar sense of infrastructure and support to enable them to scrutinise effectively? That can't mean suddenly asking the Nao to replicate their function directly for those authorities. That wouldn't work. But that is precisely the discussion that the cabinet statement sort of indicates we .
Want to have
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
What is being done to very rapidly scale up those local. I mean, just in we needed, as you know, primary. legislation to establish the local audit office because the previous architecture was dismantled. So we needed primary legislation. We got royal assent in April. We need the secondary. legislation to establish it in July. We've appointed, as you know, Bill Butler as the chair. We're making executive.
appointments over the course of this year. We are seconding people from the department in to get it up and running. But you are right, if that. The danger of asking the local audit office to do more is. I think our priority for them is the accounts, and we mustn't lose focus on that. But I think over time there is an option. Good to discuss and get input and views from this committee of asking them to take a wider role and look at the value for money of spending .
In
appointments over the course of this year. We are seconding people from the department in to get it up and running. But you are right, if that. The danger of asking the local audit office to do more is. I think our priority for them is the accounts, and we mustn't lose focus on that. But I think over time there is an option. Good to discuss and get input and views from this committee of asking them to take a wider role and look at the value for money of spending .
In
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
the West Midlands Combined Authority, for example. Well, just back to what you were just saying then. I mean, this committee knows more than anybody else the value of scrutiny of central government spending and the way that we are lucky enough to be able to do that is, firstly, we've got the resources, we have the resources of the Nao behind us to provide us with the information. That's the first thing. The second thing is that it's independent.
It has to be chaired by a member of Her Majesty's opposition. So are we going to provide it provided in this strategic authority settlements, enough resources to be able to do that properly? Because if we're going to hand down billions and it will be 15 billion over the next four years, it's essential that it's properly scrutinised. I think, chair, hopefully the thing that can give you comfort on that is the way the cabinet statement, again, even within those first two weeks, recognised the importance of capacity and capability to the system as a whole.
If it's to operate at the deeper level that the government envisages. And that is in part, of course, about the capacity and capability of MSAs themselves. And, you know, there is a huge discrepancy already because of the time period at which different MSAs have have developed in, for example, the capacity and capability of Greater Manchester versus, for example, some of the more nascent and recent MSAs. And so a part of what government will need to do is make sure that the funding is there for capacity and capability of the MSAs themselves.
And then, of course, you're completely right. In order for the system to function in the way we've just been discussing, there's also making sure there's the right funding and resource for the organisations that are going to support it. And that's exactly where the the local audit office is key to that. So I think for now, the answer to that is yes, we completely recognise that and indeed are determined if the system is to work to make sure it's there.
That's the direction ministers have set us. Our expectation is . That it will
It has to be chaired by a member of Her Majesty's opposition. So are we going to provide it provided in this strategic authority settlements, enough resources to be able to do that properly? Because if we're going to hand down billions and it will be 15 billion over the next four years, it's essential that it's properly scrutinised. I think, chair, hopefully the thing that can give you comfort on that is the way the cabinet statement, again, even within those first two weeks, recognised the importance of capacity and capability to the system as a whole.
If it's to operate at the deeper level that the government envisages. And that is in part, of course, about the capacity and capability of MSAs themselves. And, you know, there is a huge discrepancy already because of the time period at which different MSAs have have developed in, for example, the capacity and capability of Greater Manchester versus, for example, some of the more nascent and recent MSAs. And so a part of what government will need to do is make sure that the funding is there for capacity and capability of the MSAs themselves.
And then, of course, you're completely right. In order for the system to function in the way we've just been discussing, there's also making sure there's the right funding and resource for the organisations that are going to support it. And that's exactly where the the local audit office is key to that. So I think for now, the answer to that is yes, we completely recognise that and indeed are determined if the system is to work to make sure it's there.
That's the direction ministers have set us. Our expectation is . That it will
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
be at the budget that we are able to say more about how that will work. If I could just very briefly add, I said right at the top of the session, you know, this has large. implications for central government and for the resources that we have. And the really interesting question is, if you take if that resource is being moved in financial terms, then the capability and capacity of central government has also got to got to flow to local level.
And that's why we are. seconding people directly from central government into MSAs. We have a whole. programme of options for how we build capability. I think the National School for government will play a really important role in building capability across the whole of the public sector, but the civil service has got to get smaller. We've got to get much more strategic and much more deft in our ability to move that .
And that's why we are. seconding people directly from central government into MSAs. We have a whole. programme of options for how we build capability. I think the National School for government will play a really important role in building capability across the whole of the public sector, but the civil service has got to get smaller. We've got to get much more strategic and much more deft in our ability to move that .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
the nature of what we do on behalf of the state, we happen to run a very high risk set of systems on behalf of the. taxpayer and what we do. And of course, there are things that we have to do better. But when it comes to the capability that we've got, if I take the 6000 commercial. professionals that I run through the Cabinet Office, I absolutely expect us to be sharing that capacity and capability across the whole of the United Kingdom.
And we've got to get better at being more porous with the private . Sector
And we've got to get better at being more porous with the private . Sector
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Rupert Lowe
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Rupert Lowe
as well in building that. capability for the whole economy. But what I'm glad that you're proposing to cut central government as you increase. devolved local government. I think that's that's absolutely essential. So so when the Nao says in their summary that they found tension between MSAs. expectations of. autonomy and funding department's.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
after that to talk about MPs, because I think that's a very important point. I mean, I think I think it's a work in progress. So as I as I tried to illustrate with my how do we do accountability at the moment? Let's just take it what exists there? Well, currently I think Steve Rotherham or Paul Bristow would say, I feel accountable to my electorate. You may or may not agree with that. Secondly, they've got to get their budgets and all of their plans through their local authorities.
So it is a combined authority, apart from in the case of of London. So there is a second element there. Then we've also discussed if you're in receipt of the integrated settlement, you have a number of outcomes that you have to try and hit. Queue debate are the too many have we got? Is it too hot, too cold or just about right? We've got. 12 to 14 at the moment. If you don't hit your outcomes, we've got a matrix of interventions from a bit more monitoring to intervening and ultimately clawing back money.
Then we've got the local scrutiny committees that Melissa has talked to, which are new and have more teeth than any other form of local accountability that we've had thus far. And then we say in the cabinet statement, but we still don't think this is enough, and we want to set out plans to go further still. So that's where we are. I recognise that views will differ on that. Is the right level of accountability too much .
Or
So it is a combined authority, apart from in the case of of London. So there is a second element there. Then we've also discussed if you're in receipt of the integrated settlement, you have a number of outcomes that you have to try and hit. Queue debate are the too many have we got? Is it too hot, too cold or just about right? We've got. 12 to 14 at the moment. If you don't hit your outcomes, we've got a matrix of interventions from a bit more monitoring to intervening and ultimately clawing back money.
Then we've got the local scrutiny committees that Melissa has talked to, which are new and have more teeth than any other form of local accountability that we've had thus far. And then we say in the cabinet statement, but we still don't think this is enough, and we want to set out plans to go further still. So that's where we are. I recognise that views will differ on that. Is the right level of accountability too much .
Or
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Rupert Lowe
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Rupert Lowe
little, but that is the square that we are trying to circle. We're trying to square. Well, fine, but I think it's absolutely essential. We do have that on the MPs. I, I think it's again, good that we see them included in here because again, MPs are the elected. representatives of the people ultimately. And therefore and James, you've done me a favour actually, because you've raised an issue that I was going to find a way of raising here which which the overnight levy which again.
So I was going to use that as an example. So say, for instance, in my.
So I was going to use that as an example. So say, for instance, in my.
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Rupert Lowe
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Rupert Lowe
Even if it's in not just. scrutinising but also the decision making. And to see an overseas, well, not an overseas sort of overnight levy, which again, I've seen suggestions that. £5 or £10 charge, and I've also seen polling that suggests that it will put a lot of people off holidaying here and they will go abroad. So again, at a time when our tourism, our.
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Blake Stephenson
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Blake Stephenson
grab the power and the MPs will appear to be irrelevant. Yeah. But is it is it worth me saying a little bit about the over, over, over overnight levy. So yeah. So the government will set out the framework in which you can do that. It's worth saying, you know, why is why is in place. Well, I think we're the only G7 country without that. So in terms of your competition point, lots of other countries do have that.
In terms of.
In terms of.
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Blake Stephenson
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Blake Stephenson
I think the key to the point about, you know, is it a good idea is or should should it proceed is a couple of things. Firstly, you know, there's no compulsion. So it doesn't have to you don't have to have an overnight levy and you can decide not to go ahead with one. And secondly, there is a requirement for an authority if it wishes to have a levy to consult. So I'd say that's probably the the time in which everyone .
Can get
Can get
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
This is important. This is why it's important that MPs are involved. Yes. I mean, just to add to what Will said, we absolutely agree with you. That's and you know, yes, we are talking we are. engaging with MPs. We're engaging with the NEA, with this committee. We are looking at other models of doing this well, because we are moving fast. We're going to set out . Exactly
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Rupert Lowe
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Rupert Lowe
how we're going to do this as part of the white paper, but we're going to be taking action. We're discussing things and they keep changing. So again, we really do need a sitting. target so that we can actually judge whether it's going to work or not. At the moment you say it's work in progress. We haven't got a firm idea. We're talking about this. We're talking about that my. constituencies in Norfolk.
So we're now going to be standing in as of this afternoon,
So we're now going to be standing in as of this afternoon,
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Rupert Lowe
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Rupert Lowe
in a borough council election next year because yeah, it's back to normal. Whereas, you know, all these things are changing and it's extremely destabilising. So if we can't even basically set out what we're going to do because we haven't reached a conclusion on that, that's when things go . Wrong and
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Mistakes are made because it's all being done in a hurry and it's not being thought about well, for us, this is how good policy development works. We want to engage, we want to iterate. And that's why the white paper will be coming out fairly . shortly once we've undertaken a good policy development process. To your point,
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Mayoral strategic authorities. I think that is a if you mean the. 12 to 14 indicators that we have at the moment for the integrated development, if you mean when do those fall away? I can't give you a straight answer to that because that is still a decision that we have to make. We've said that we've talked about how they can be useful for scrutiny and accountability. We've said that we think that.
12 to 14 is far fewer than we've ever had previously. Ministers the next announced an intention to streamline them, but I can't tell you what decision will be made over the course of the coming months as to when there will be fewer . Or how
12 to 14 is far fewer than we've ever had previously. Ministers the next announced an intention to streamline them, but I can't tell you what decision will be made over the course of the coming months as to when there will be fewer . Or how
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
establishment of decent accounts in local government , establishing a local audit office? So the local audit office now is established. It is a body, thanks to the regulations that Parliament approved in July. We've been out to advert for a chief executive. We've appointed a chair. We want it up and running early next year. We're not waiting for the local audit office to be in operation to tackle the crisis in local authority accounts.
As I said to you earlier, we've upped from 1% to 90 odd percent in terms of accounts published on time. Just for the avoidance of doubt, Mr. Low, I wasn't saying that I was no way complacent that this is is fixed, not least given the number of disqualified opinions. I am . Simply
As I said to you earlier, we've upped from 1% to 90 odd percent in terms of accounts published on time. Just for the avoidance of doubt, Mr. Low, I wasn't saying that I was no way complacent that this is is fixed, not least given the number of disqualified opinions. I am . Simply
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
In in providing a strengthened local accountability? Yeah. Well, the first job of the local audit office is to fix the unacceptable state of local authority accounts. That is the thing that they must focus on beyond anything else, because we can't have a system where James and I return every year, and the whole of government accounts are disqualified because of I mean, frankly, because this government's view is the decision to abolish the Audit Commission was a mistake and the provision was not made to replace it.
So that damage is being undone is the view of ministers now. So that is the absolutely primary thing that they must get right. And nothing must take their focus off it. The thing that we have explored this afternoon, which I think is tentative, but as hinted at in the cabinet statement, is in order to support scrutiny locally, what is the best way of doing that? We've discussed how this committee benefits from the expertise of the Nao and the Comptroller and Auditor General and I are meeting tomorrow to discuss how we might do more on this.
And I think one option that we will want to discuss with ministers, although no decisions have been made, is do we ask the local audit office to sort of play a bit of a role in assessing value for money of the integrated settlement in the West of England Combined authority? That is, that is an. option open to ministers. It's not something we've decided on, but that would be a that would be an additional ask to fixing the accounts,
So that damage is being undone is the view of ministers now. So that is the absolutely primary thing that they must get right. And nothing must take their focus off it. The thing that we have explored this afternoon, which I think is tentative, but as hinted at in the cabinet statement, is in order to support scrutiny locally, what is the best way of doing that? We've discussed how this committee benefits from the expertise of the Nao and the Comptroller and Auditor General and I are meeting tomorrow to discuss how we might do more on this.
And I think one option that we will want to discuss with ministers, although no decisions have been made, is do we ask the local audit office to sort of play a bit of a role in assessing value for money of the integrated settlement in the West of England Combined authority? That is, that is an. option open to ministers. It's not something we've decided on, but that would be a that would be an additional ask to fixing the accounts,
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yes. Thank you very much. Thank you , chair. Thank you very much, Sarah. Clive, please follow on this about local scrutiny. I've got many good things about local government. I'm very supportive of it. One thing I think has never really worked very well as scrutiny committees. And I think you talk to most councillors, they've got concerns and.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Particularly when the scrutiny committee sits down and the officers advising them about scrutiny come from the same departments being scrutinised, and that happens on a regular basis. So how when these billions are being spent and scrutinised, are we going to get that degree of. independence of both.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
terms of. process into the scrutiny? So local scrutiny committees that we've legislated for and forgive the slightly duplicative language, do replace the mayors, replace overview and scrutiny committee. So it is a deliberate attempt to have a regime with more teeth, the ability to have up to. 40% independence. And experts on the committee, I think, is a good innovation. The ability to insist that the mayor.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
there's clearly more to do. I think just as we've got here, the now, to give us that technical, professional advice, we've also got our excellent committee staff who are here to advise and assist us as well. Now, local scrutiny committees don't have that in terms of they have good staff, but . They're not.
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Independent of the areas being scrutinised. So so one of the one of the changes that we are moving towards is to say is, is partial independence, independent membership. alongside membership with sort of representatives from the constituent authorities. And we're also designing in a sort of a mechanism whereby the local scrutiny committee needs to take advice from a panel of independent.
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Where those experts are focused around the different areas of. competence for which the strategic authority is responsible. So we are we are trying to build in that that level of independence. We're also working really closely with the centre for Governance and. Scrutiny on how they can provide support to sort of. upskill and sort of offer training and support to the local . Scrutiny
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
right way. Yeah. Clunky isn't it? Well, I mean, I share it, I try to make my meetings, I say, I say it's no more than an hour and a half. I mean, it's a triumph. There's a tension, right? There's just a there's a tension on one hand. It's clunky. There's too many outcomes. You guys are. micromanaging these people, I get that.
On the other hand, how are you ensuring consistency and value for money. accountability and so on and so forth. So. People can say, we're too light, too little, not enough. We're trying to . Get it
On the other hand, how are you ensuring consistency and value for money. accountability and so on and so forth. So. People can say, we're too light, too little, not enough. We're trying to . Get it
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Blake Stephenson
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Blake Stephenson
we do to the best of our ability. If I may. I mean, the one thing, the one thing I'd say about the programme boards, I agree that I agree with the tension is you do. You must have in the checks and balances as as you as a committee do so well in the now to a check on delivery. So you're not just doing. announcement and target, you're actually getting in and looking at delivery and.
implementation and all the learning we've had over public sector in all of its guises. You
implementation and all the learning we've had over public sector in all of its guises. You
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Strategic boards, how are you going to actually cope? That's kind of your chair to I'm I'm confident that we can cope. I actually think when I look at what local government is doing under significant resource pressure and actually what the new mayoral strategic authorities are achieving, my bigger worry is, are they set up for success? Not the department. Whitehall will be central government will be will be fine. I think we cope by ensuring that our partners in.
places are properly resourced, that they have enough capacity funding in order to recruit staff and bring expertise into the organisation. So I think a mistake would be I'm not saying this is quite what you're saying, but the wrong the wrong response to this would be devolution is now a massive thing. Let's hugely increase the number of staff in. Mhclg instead. I think as with the rest of the civil service, we should be looking to reduce the number of staff in.
Mhclg and transfer at least some of that.
places are properly resourced, that they have enough capacity funding in order to recruit staff and bring expertise into the organisation. So I think a mistake would be I'm not saying this is quite what you're saying, but the wrong the wrong response to this would be devolution is now a massive thing. Let's hugely increase the number of staff in. Mhclg instead. I think as with the rest of the civil service, we should be looking to reduce the number of staff in.
Mhclg and transfer at least some of that.
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
combined authorities so that they are they are our decent partners. Coming on to that in a minute. I want to just talk about when things go wrong. The rubbish is building up on the streets of Birmingham at the moment. You've got a fairly quick mechanism. You can put that authority into strategic measures and you can send in the commissioners on the ground and they can do something about it quite quickly. I'm looking at the now figure nine, and that's gradated into minor things that might go wrong and moderate things that might go wrong.
And then it goes on to major things that might go wrong. But I'm just still wondering whether the commissioners are option the strategic measures are still there because .
And then it goes on to major things that might go wrong. But I'm just still wondering whether the commissioners are option the strategic measures are still there because .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
If something really major goes wrong, you need to do something about it quickly. The answer the question is yes, they are. And the best value regime that the department runs applies equally to local. authorities as it does mayoral strategic authorities. So we have the same I sometimes call it a climbing a ladder, but my team correct me and say it's a climbing frame because you don't need to go from one stage to the other. A best value notice, a best value.
inspection and sending in commissioners.
inspection and sending in commissioners.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Exist in a strategic authority as they do a local authority. And we've had two strategic authorities that have received best value. notices in the past, who are now sort of actually had quite a useful bit of. engagement with the department on improvements. Those are Cambridge and Peterborough in the west of England. Those have now established status and due to receive an integrated settlement in the next spending review. So we have .
Intervened
Intervened
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
In combined authorities in the past and we are prepared to do so again. Very good. Thank you. That's helpful. Mayoral strategic authorities are building up capacity paragraph 2.17 in the report. And I'll quote two little bits of it. They the strategic authorities will not always hold the relevant expertise themselves and may need to draw on capacity of constituent authorities or other local partners. And this is the important bit.
MSAs may grow faster than their capacity to deliver, particularly the newer MSAs. Still putting core system staff and processes in place. How will you make sure that the devolution of functions to these authorities. That they're
MSAs may grow faster than their capacity to deliver, particularly the newer MSAs. Still putting core system staff and processes in place. How will you make sure that the devolution of functions to these authorities. That they're
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
going to be able to grow. capacity at the speed that's required? I mean, this is the I think this is the single most important thing for the. department or one of the most important things for the department. This bit of the department over the next six months. So we are acutely conscious that we are building new institutions. And that takes time, effort and resource. So the first thing we're doing is putting a bit more money in.
It's a straight answer actually. Just administration funding needs to go up a bit. Most of these combined authorities are, even as a proportion of their budgets, have less. administration spend than Whitehall departments. Katz talked about the immediate actions we're taking on secondments from MSAs, from the civil service, opening up the Civil Service Future Leadership Scheme, the National School for government, the LGA, peer Support and review. So those are all sort of immediate things and low hanging fruit.
I think that is necessary, but not sufficient for the scale of the. transformation that is needed. So we said in the cabinet statement that we wanted to publish a blueprint of what a good strategic authority would look like to start, and we'll do that, of course, in partnership with our colleagues who actually run these.
It's a straight answer actually. Just administration funding needs to go up a bit. Most of these combined authorities are, even as a proportion of their budgets, have less. administration spend than Whitehall departments. Katz talked about the immediate actions we're taking on secondments from MSAs, from the civil service, opening up the Civil Service Future Leadership Scheme, the National School for government, the LGA, peer Support and review. So those are all sort of immediate things and low hanging fruit.
I think that is necessary, but not sufficient for the scale of the. transformation that is needed. So we said in the cabinet statement that we wanted to publish a blueprint of what a good strategic authority would look like to start, and we'll do that, of course, in partnership with our colleagues who actually run these.
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
and plans to to fill that. So all of that detail is coming in the autumn. I'm glad you recognise the scale of the problem, because this is this is starkly revealed in the local government chronicle of the 5th of August. And I quote the second paragraph from that. Staffing levels range from 5.9 full time equivalent staff at Devon and Cornwall Bay to over 1500 at the Greater London Authority, and nearly a thousand at both West Yorkshire and West Midlands.
So there is a really big job of work to be done here.
So there is a really big job of work to be done here.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
If some of these are going to be ready for become mayoral strategic authorities, and often those large staffing numbers are where the combined. authority comes from existing transport authority. So transport authorities predate mayors in many circumstances. If you go to the North east, for example, and they've had a transport. authority for longer than they've had a mayoral combined authority, so they've got more of a history of working together via the transport authority and an infrastructure to build on.
We're acutely conscious that in other parts of the country there isn't that existing.
We're acutely conscious that in other parts of the country there isn't that existing.
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
Infrastructure, and this is a priority for us to get right over the coming weeks and months. I think we've covered the subject fairly well. Unless anybody's got any more questions, I think I'm going to draw us to a close. So can I thank you all? You're all very busy people. We're very pleased to have with us three, no less than three permanent secretaries. It's been useful, I think, this afternoon because this is a big, important and diverse subject.
So an uncorrected version of the transcript will be available in the next few days, following which we will Few days, following which we will produce a report, maybe with recommendations, which I hope you will study carefully. And we look forward very much to seeing how it goes. Just finally to say please, please do try and clear up what's been done today as quickly as possible, because the people out there will be in despair tonight. I think it's very well understood.
So an uncorrected version of the transcript will be available in the next few days, following which we will Few days, following which we will produce a report, maybe with recommendations, which I hope you will study carefully. And we look forward very much to seeing how it goes. Just finally to say please, please do try and clear up what's been done today as quickly as possible, because the people out there will be in despair tonight. I think it's very well understood.
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