Lords Chamber

Wednesday 26th March 2025

(began 3 days, 2 hours ago)

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Lord Hunt of Wirral Portrait Lord Hunt of Wirral (Conservative)
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My Lords, I have noticed the change in leadership at EDF, and I look forward to having discussions in the future, with the new person who has been appointed. Clearly, my Lords, EDF and a major investment at Hinckley C, and as he says, the shareholder will see, we have enjoyed a good relationship with EDF. My right honourable friend, the Secretary of State for energy and the Net Zero, met with his counterpart, the French government, only a few weeks ago, and we maintain contact with only the French government and EDF, and of course, we will have to see how this unfolds over the next few weeks but I'm confident, my Lords, we will see progress towards the opening of Hinkley point C and to file an investment position around letter size -- Sizeable safe size -- Sizeable safe Arafat interest in chairman of the commission and beg leave to ask questions and again my name Order Paper.



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I would like to start by sending my sympathies to all those affected my sympathies to all those affected by what happened at Heathrow. I wish to praise the efforts of all the people who worked so hard to get Heathrow when running again. The Heathrow when running again. The government works continuously with industry regulators and other stakeholders to improve and maintain the resilience and security of the resilience and security of energy infrastructure and to minimise the risk of unplanned minimise the risk of unplanned outages.

Alongside Ofgem, my right honourable friend, the Secretary of honourable friend, the Secretary of State Commissioner National Energy System Operator, to carry out a review to investigate the power disruption to Heathrow. Once we have all the information, we will be best placed to understand any wider lessons learned on energy resilience, and security, for critical and national infrastructure. infrastructure.
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Baroness Twycross Portrait Baroness Twycross (Labour)
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I've resisted puns throughout, however, we are now reaching full- time so decided to make an exception today. I hope to get through this debate without any penalty shootouts. This is a historic piece of legislation that will ensure funds are placed at the heart of our national game. I want to start by paying tribute to the work of Dame Tracey Crouch. Her Fan-Led Review highlighted how to many football fans have been left with nowhere to turn when faced with reckless owners, and threats to their clubs very existence.

This led to all three main political parties have a commitment to introduce Singh an independent -- have -- having a commitment to introducing an Independent Football Regulator. We have made changes to refine and strengthen legislation to ensure the regulator successfully delivers for fans and communities were protecting the strength of English football. We are taking a proportionate and flexible approach to regulation to provide certainty and sustainability required to drive future investment and growth so that English football continues to be a global success.

I thank my noble friends for their invaluable contributions in providing greater transparency of the regulator. We will establish a system for all board members and expert panels to declare interests. I also thank my noble friends who along with other noble Lords championed the inclusion of players and fans. We have amended the regulatory principles to explicitly add players, fans and others who may be affected by the regulator's decisions and the regulator should proactively engage with these.

I particularly want to thank my friend Baroness Blake of Leeds for your continued support and stepping into help on those extremely long committee nice. I want to give special thanks to Lord Addington and Lord Goddard for their constructive and at times humorous engagement and for advocating for a social responsibility duty. In addition to the definition of corporate governance for football clubs to include clubs contribution to the economic and social well-being of its local community will help to shine a light on the good work that clubs do for their local areas.

I thank the noble Lords Lord Birt in Lord Pannick for their considered engagement. I want to particularly mention noble Lady Baroness Grey- Thompson who raised issues about women's foot tall. While not envisaged as part of the initial regulatory regime, we fully support women's football and the aims of the review. While we might not have agreed on every issue throughout the bill's passage, I thank Lord Parkinson and Lord Markham further scrutiny and for ensuring that the niche and highly important issue of her radically -- heraldic names is With expertise in football, Baroness Brady entertainment.

And for occasionally missing matches to take part in parting proceedings. -- To take part in proceedings. This has been a long and so passage through the house so please excuse me briefly for taking a moment to thank the many civil servants who worked so diligently. My thanks also go to the numerous lawyers in my private office who have been very patient. I'm proud to stand here today being the one to pass this bill over to the other has.

Arguably, it is have time, not full-time in parliamentary terms. This is an important and much needed piece of legislation which will protect and promote the sustainability of English football in the address of funds and the local communities football clubs served. Football part -- fans up and down the country deserve and want to this igniter.

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The question is that this bill do now past.

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now past. It is my turn to say a few words. It's been a very interesting experience. I thank the Minister for her engagement in the number of her engagement in the number of meetings when she made her time and meetings when she made her time and staff available to us. Also, to my noble friend Lord Goddard, it was
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Lord Addington Portrait Lord Addington (Liberal Democrat)
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noble friend Lord Goddard, it was nice to have a wing man and occasionally letting him fly the plane. I also thank the Minister for some of the specific things they brought in. The social inclusion, I always felt it was something that was lacking. Although football does good work, it is pretty. We have taken on something that has been outside the remit of government. -- bitty. We have secured it in its current form like it for the foreseeable future.

Ensure that happens also implies a duty for them as a community. I hope now it's mentioned in the bill, that two-way relationship is expanded. Also, for including both fans and players in the bill. At something I was only starting in the chorus for but I'm glad it happened. Players, people who have short careers, most of the people despite the myths about it in football, have short, not very well paid careers in the lower divisions. They deserve to have some consideration as well.

I also thank many people from the opposition benches for enlightening me on a range of subjects. I never thought I would learn something about heraldry on this. I thank the noble Lord Parkinson on that. I would hope this bill fulfils its functions and goes forward, and I hope we don't have to

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The passage of this bill free

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The passage of this bill free chips has has been a game of two chips has has been a game of two halves. We began our arrangements on the governance version of the bill in November, as the noble Lady says,
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Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay Portrait Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Conservative)
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in November, as the noble Lady says, at second reading, join her in the thanks she has given again to Dame Tracey Crouch and the fans that contributed to the Fan-Led Review that initiated this process and set out our reports for principles, including preserving the heritage of football clubs, particularly against rogue owners. At the same time, highlighted some of the concerns about the changes the government have made to the bill, compared to the one in the last Parliament. I'm sorry we weren't able to persuade the government about all of those concerns, but I am very glad that, thanks to the careful deliberations of your Lordships house, the bill will indeed go to another place in a better state than when we started.

I know there was some criticism in the length of time taken in committee, and we certainly seem to go into injury time before the first half of the match was over. But I do think some of the cries of foul were unfounded, both in committee and report, the majority of the members scheme from beyond these benches, and Iama glass roof and consensus even beyond the debate and disagreement. Thanks to the in-depth knowledge and passionate engagement from noble Lords right across the House, and thanks to the generous engagement and time provided by the noble Lady, the minister, particularly between committee and report and the many meetings she had.

And I know the Secretary of State and sports Minister made themselves available for meetings as well for we are grateful to the ball. And I am pleased we secured some two dozen important concessions on the bill for in particular, my noble friends, Lady Brady, Lady Evans, Lord Monaghan, Lord Jackson of Peterborough, Lord Pannick, consistently raise the importance of having light touch regulation, which having light touch regulation, which I'm glad to see reflected in the changes to clause 8, noble friend, Lord Markham and I also pushed for the interest rate, the regulator might charge on unpaid levies to be capped, we are pleased the government accepted that.

I want to pay particular thanks to my noble friend, Lady Brady, who cannot be in her place today but who, as the noble Lady said, Mr number of important fixtures for her own club to scrutinise the bill. She brought her extensive and first-hand experience of the commercial workings of football clubs, to highlight some of the issues in the bill. Again, while it is unfortunate we were not able to persuade the House to protect parachute payments from the redistributive backstop, I know my noble friend will continue to highlight in your Lordships house and beyond how important they are for the financial sustainability of the whole football pyramid.

I would also like to highlight, as the noble Lady did, the role of the noble Baroness, the Lady Taylor of Bolton, and Lord Bassam of Brighton, from the benches opposite, they probed many areas of the bill with a perceptible love for the game, secured important amendments as well, particularly to create interests for those appointed to the I am pleased the government saw sense to remove the power of the Secretary of State to amend the definition of the football season, which always struck as an unnecessary power.

Of course, I am particularly grateful to the noble Lady, the Minister, to the building -- Bill team for their considerable engagement with me, to ensure the bill avoided the incorrect use of her old it can terms, higher issue with this was not an issue the noble Baroness and Bill team thought they would be spending quite as much time on but I'm glad we got it right. I hope when she receives her own grant of arms, the noble Lady will find a way to record this legislative monument in this hurrah that achievement.

There was indication in the work of another friend who argue throughout about the need for post- legislative scrutiny of the bill. Joined by others, including the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor. We are glad to see the five year statutory review, which the government have added. That review may prove to be particularly important. Despite the many improvements your Lordships To the bill, there remain a number of areas that we haven't been able to resolve. My noble friend, Lord Moylan, ably led the charge and trying to ensure the regulator will not fall foul of UEFA or FIFA rules.

I'm sorry we were not able to persuade the government or the Liberal Democrats of the merits of his rather modest amendment. My noble friends, Lord Hayward, raise the cost of compliance, we remain concerned about that and I am grateful to my honourable friend, Lord Ranger, who highlighted the impact on ticket prices. And I would like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Bird, joined by an impressive team of his friends from the crossbenches for their hard work and trying to improve the backstop mechanism.

I do hope the government will continue, as I'm sure they will come to engage the noble Lords on this matter, as they said they would, as the bill heads to another place. But this postmatch analysis and focus on areas for improvement should distract us from the considerable progress we have made together. I'm grateful to all the noble Lords and the noble Baroness, the Minister, highlighted. I am grateful to Lord Markham who saved me from describing football terms inaccurately. To the excellent Jamie Tucker for the opposition whips office, and of opposition whips office, and of cause, to the noble Baroness, the Minister, the Bill team and her excellent private office.

I'm sure she has spent longer on the pitch than she anticipated, but she is able to pass this bill to her colleagues in another place, should prove, thanks to her patient and generous engagement with us all. As I said at second reading, my knowledge of football does not compare to that of the noble Lords. It has always abused me -- Amused me, how a ball kicked onto the pitch can unlike some passion and anguish, we have talked about that in the debate on this bill, but as the referee's whistle blows, I think all sides can look back on some satisfaction and say good game.



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Can I also thank the Minister and the ability matter Secretary of State, for the exceptional level of engagement they have shown in the relation to the concerns of the interests of those around the House.
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Lord Pannick Portrait Lord Pannick (Crossbench)
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interests of those around the House. It has resulted in a much better bill. And that causes the function of this House. -- And that, of course, is the function of this

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I was not planning to respond, but I thank all noble Lords for

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their comments. The question is that the bill do now past. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Content". Of the contrary, "Not content". The contents have it. Shall we take a

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As As it As it will As it will Urgent As it will Urgent Question As it will Urgent Question ask As it will Urgent Question ask in the House of Commons yesterday on the House of Commons yesterday on asylum and legal channel crossings.

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asylum and legal channel crossings. Before the Minister claims this

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Before the Minister claims this is an entirely inherited issue, the government has, since taking office nine months ago, put up an additional 8,500 illegal immigrants additional 8,500 illegal immigrants in hotels. And the number of small boat crossings since only refers to boat crossings since only refers to thousand and 25 are up 37.5% from the same period last year. These already shocking numbers, and are going in the wrong direction and the taxpayer is picking up the tab while the government fails in its election promise.

Can I therefore ask the noble Lord cabinet minister, what new concrete steps this government is taking to deter those who are right now on the cusp of crossing the channel and how they intend to terminate the use of hotels and terminate the use of hotels and housing illegal immigrants, without reducing the number of homes which should be prioritised for British citizens and those who have citizens and those who have citizens and those who have
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None Portrait Urgent Question - Asylum Hotel And Illegal Channel Crossing Lord Davies of Gower (Conservative)
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I am grateful to the noble Lord. I will just remind him that in 2016,
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Lord German Portrait Lord German (Liberal Democrat)
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My Lords, I declare my interest, and supported by the organisation. I know that the noble Lord cabinet minister, accepts that hotels are unsuitable accommodation, and there are other forms provided. In order to do that, there are two questions. One of which of course is about reducing the number of people who are waiting to have their cases heard. Can the Minister tell us whatever that being made to ensure that individuals can have their appeal is heard in a timely way? With adequate legal representation, to ensure that correct decisions are taken.

At the time when they first heard, rather than having to go through many steps following. Secondly, of course, we could remove this problem, by allowing people to pay for their own accommodation. As the government assess the opportunity to allow people, who are being kept in this long queue, the

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opportunity to work. The real opportunity we are

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The real opportunity we are trying to do was reduce the asylum backlog in the first place. If people claim asylum on arrival in the United Kingdom from whatever source, we have a duty to assess that asylum claim, sadly, the that asylum claim, sadly, the previous government allowed that asylum claim backlog, the balloon completely. So, what we have tried completely. So, what we have tried to do is put in place 1,000 extra staff, funded from the resource we have saved, from scrapping the Rwanda scheme, which deterred nobody at that extra staff are now doing at that extra staff are now doing Lord has mentioned, which is reducing the asylum backlog and making sure we deal with asylum claims.

Those that I hear can go on to work, those that are here can go on to provide their own accommodation but those who are not here, including the 19,000 we have removed between July 4 and January 31, that is because we are speeding up the asylum claims.
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None Portrait Legislation: Non-Domestic Rating (Multipliers and Private Schools) Bill) - consideration of Commons amendments
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lieu of amendment seven. The seek to exclude healthcare from the higher multiplier. The Noble Baronesses lady Scott has tabled amendments in lieu of of amendments... We have discussed during the passage of this bill the importance of having a higher multiplier which applies to all properties at £500,000 value or above. This is the only fair way to raise the revenue needed. We have ensured that the VOA have published data on those within the healthcare and retail sectors with a value of £500,000 or more.

The value is limited to supermarkets and retail warehouses. I have previously provided the house with the statistics which show that and they have been published at the VOA. Nevertheless, I can assure the house that the powers already contained with -- in clause 3 of the bill would allow the higher multiplier classes to be excluded based on their use. The amendments put forward to close one and therefore unnecessary. Therefore, I respectfully ask the noble Baroness lady Penick and lady Scott not to move these.

I asked noble Lords not to insist on their amendments. This is on the basis that the other place disagreed with amendments 14 and 16 on the basis they disagree with the public revenue. Plays did not offer any further reason trusting that this reason is sufficient. -- And the other place. The government has already agreed to publish information about new multipliers and new information is not necessary. The noble Lord has tabled an amendment 13B in lieu of amendment 13.

Amendment 13 B seeks to undertake a review of how provisions within the act might affect businesses the value of which is close to £500,000. The requirement is that this be late between -- before Parliament within six months of passing. The review must consider of a separate use class and separate multiplier for retail services provided by warehouses. Amendment 14 B is similar to the amendment previously tabled by Lord Thurlow but removes the requirement for recommendations of that review to be implemented.

As set out, amendment 13 and also now amendment 13 B probes the way multipliers can operate whether this may serve as the disincentice to invest. This is something the government is already looking at are transforming business rates work. The government has published a report on reforms. Reforms will be phased over the course of this Parliament. Furthermore, the objective set out now in both 13 B objective set out now in both 13 B and 14B to identify fulfilment by warehouses which do not have a presence on our high street is something that is already done.

As set out previously, the project will allow the government to access property level data with HMRC level data. This will help us to improve the way we target business rates and identify property and businesses within the business rates system. These amendments are not necessary
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None Portrait Legislation: Non-Domestic Rating (Multipliers and Private Schools) Bill) - consideration of Commons amendments Lord Khan of Burnley, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
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for this reason, as they are already being pursued through other government work. Therefore, I respectfully ask the noble Lord is not a press these amendments. About to move.

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The question is that motion A be
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Baroness Pinnock Portrait Baroness Pinnock (Liberal Democrat)
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agreed to. My Lords, as the noble Lord the Minister has sent, the higher rate or multiplier being introduced in this bill is to apply to all properties with a rateable value of more than £500,000. Now, this is a worthy attempt by the government to have a fairer approach to business rates. However, 290 hospitals are captured by this new branding. It means a considerable increase in their business rates, potentially of a 20% increase in the rate, for which government funding has not made provision.

So, hospitals will have less funding in order to drive down waiting lists, which is something that has all of our support. Just one example. University College Hospital here in London has a rateable value of nearly £12 million. With the new higher multiplier, its business rates will increase by over 1.2 £1.2 million. So, 1B amendment in lieu to motion A provides the government by regulation at the option to exclude hospitals from this higher branding.

And at this late stage, I urge the noble Lord the minister to agree. None of us want to see the waiting list not going down as fast as they could do because of the reluctance of government to exclude hospitals not from business rates but just from the higher multiplier. If I may from the higher multiplier. If I may speak very briefly to motion B, 1, whatever. The second one which is very important to the viability of our towns and city centres.

I support Baroness got on this issue if she wishes to take it to a vote of the House. And motion N1 in the name of noble Lord Lord Thurlow. This is of concern to businesses and we will support the noble Lord if he intends to divide the house on this issue. As an amendment to motion A,

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I propose amendment 1B in lieu. The question is that motion A be

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The question is that motion A be agreed to. At the end insert... The agreed to. At the end insert... The question is that motion 1A be agreed

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to. First of all, can I declare my

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First of all, can I declare my interest as President of the Local
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Baroness Scott of Bybrook Portrait Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Conservative)
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interest as President of the Local Government Association. There are ongoing issues which have been debated throughout the progress of this will. These clauses present to major problems. They do not respect -- respect the government's previously stated ambition to reform the business rate system, to protect the high street and ensure that online businesses pay their fair share. The higher multiplier will damage businesses on the high street and drive them out of the town centres. This bill is an attempt for the government to deliver on their manifesto commitment to reform the business rates system.

But they have instead used a blunt instrument as a cut-off. This means a number of businesses will be paying this higher multiplier, which they should not be doing. The government will be hitting stores up and down the high street and despite promises that reform will follow, this bill leaves a number of important High Street businesses paying higher rates with no certainty at all as to when the situation will improve. My motion B1 seeks to give the Secretary of State discretionary power to retain the standard multiplier for anchor stores.

This would allow the Secretary of State to remove the higher multiplier if it becomes apparent that there are a number of integral businesses leaving the high street or opening new stores out of the town centres. It does not require any action but instead gives the Secretary of State the discretion to exempt these shops should our fears that the bill will harm our high streets proved to be Nothing I have heard from the noble Lord at the moment gives me any reason to believe this has been dealt with.

Therefore, my Lords, I do intend to test the opinion of the House. It is also important to protect our healthcare properties. The noble Baroness, the Baroness Pinnock, is, as she said, is seeking to protect our health sector. Should they choose to divide on the issue, we will be supporting. The noble Lord, Lord Thurlow's amendment calls on the government to review both the £500,000 threshold and the specific use class for fulfilment warehouses. It is important for government follow through with their manifesto commitments, so I see no reason why they should not accept any amendment which calls on them to do so.

And if the noble Lord chooses to divide on the House, we will also support

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My Lords, we have already had reference to this but I have noted the objections that came from the Commons to my amendment report. I
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Lord Jamieson Portrait Lord Jamieson (Conservative)
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My Lords, I declare my interest as a counsellor in central Bedfordshire full summarise to speak in support of the noble Lord, Lord Thurlow, in his motion. The noble Lord has been persistent in his efforts to get the government to listen and bring forward a serious review for the case of a separate use class for retail fulfilment centres that are not on the High Street. He is an excellent example of a peer who brings his experience and expertise to your Lordships house.

As a professional chartered surveyor, he has brought that expertise to bear during the debate on this bill, and I am very grateful on this bill, and I am very grateful to him for that. My Lords, this bill fails to deliver on the government's own manifesto commitments. To replace the business rates system and level up the playing field between the High Street and the internet giants. A so-called Amazon tax. It fails on both counts. This amendment's reviews will provide the basis to achieve this.

The new 500,000 threshold for the higher multiplier is a blunt tool which will impact many organisations which were never intended to be hit with higher business taxes. It does not deliver the governors own objectives of targeting online giants. I have consistently made the point that 1/2 £1 million threshold is a cliff edge that will create perverse incentives at the margin, disincentive eyes investment, particularly on the High investment, particularly on the High Street. The Lord, Lord Thurlow, has gone further, arguing forcefully that the government must review the case for a separate use class for retail fulfilment centres that are not on the High Street.

I'm grateful to him for including my concerns about the impact of the half a million threshold in his motion, and I'm pleased my party will vote for his amendment, should he choose to

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test the opinion of the House. My Lords, I realise I omitted to

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My Lords, I realise I omitted to refer to P1, which is in the same group, and so very briefly, it is consequential on my amendment, N1, consequential on my amendment, N1, and will depend on the outcome of that division.

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that division. My Lords, I thank all noble Lord who took part in a short debate. We who took part in a short debate. We heard the concerns of the noble Lords that the measures in this bill for new multipliers do not deliver on this intention on the policy, as announced on the Budget. I do not agree with that, at the Budget, the governors announced its intention to introduce multipliers for retail, hospitality and properties, and in particular, to end the uncertainty of annual RHR relief.

It has been a temporary stopgap measure that has been extended, year-on-year, since the pandemic, and does not provide the certainty businesses require. The government, through this bill, is taking steps to address that. It was also announced the budget that the permanent tax rate for RHR businesses needs to be sustainably funded. This is an appropriate and prudent approach. The challenging fiscal environment as government faces requires this, but furthermore, it goes without saying that any tax cut must be funded as part of sound financial management.

part of sound financial management. To do this, the government intends to introduce a higher multiplier for the most valuable properties, those with the rateable value of £5000 and above. The higher multiplier will affect less than 1% of properties in England. This delivers on the policy, set out at the Budget by the Chancellor. Furthermore, representative of the government's first step on delivering the commitment to transform the business rates system to one that is fairer, protects the High Street, and is fit for the 21st century.

I've explained to noble Lords here today while the amendments tabled are not necessary. For these reasons and the other reasons I have already set out, I respectfully ask noble Lords not to press their motions contained in amendments 1B, 2B, 7B, 8B, and 14B.

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I thank the noble Lord, the minister, for his response, which gave me no hope that the government
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