Tobacco and Vapes Bill (First sitting)

Committee stage
Tuesday 30th April 2024 Public Bill Committees

The Committee consisted of the following Members:

Chairs: Gordon Henderson, † Sir George Howarth, Sir Gary Streeter, Dame Siobhain McDonagh

† Aiken, Nickie (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)

† Baker, Duncan (North Norfolk) (Con)

† Bell, Aaron (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Con)

† Blackman, Bob (Harrow East) (Con)

† Cameron, Dr Lisa (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Con)

† Charalambous, Bambos (Enfield, Southgate) (Lab)

† Foy, Mary Kelly (City of Durham) (Lab)

† Gill, Preet Kaur (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab/Co-op)

† Glindon, Mary (North Tyneside) (Lab)

† Harrison, Trudy (Copeland) (Con)

† Johnson, Dr Caroline (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)

† Leadsom, Dame Andrea (Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care)

† Maskell, Rachael (York Central) (Lab/Co-op)

† Oswald, Kirsten (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)

† Richardson, Angela (Guildford) (Con)

† Tuckwell, Steve (Uxbridge and South Ruislip) (Con)

† Wakeford, Christian (Bury South) (Lab)

Katya Cassidy, Kevin Maddison and Lucinda Maer, Committee Clerks

† attended the Committee

Witnesses

Michelle Mitchell OBE, Chief Executive, Cancer Research UK

Deborah Arnott, Chief Executive, Action on Smoking and Health (ASH)

Sheila Duffy, Chief Executive, Action on Smoking and Health (ASH) Scotland

Dr Charmaine Griffiths, Chief Executive, The British Heart Foundation

Sarah Sleet, Chief Executive Officer, Asthma and Lung UK

Matthew Shanks, Chair of the Secondary Headteacher Reference Group and Chief Executive of the Education South-West Multi-Academy Trust, Headteacher Reference Group

Patrick Roach, General Secretary, NASUWT

Paul Farmer, Chief Executive, Age UK

Public Bill Committee

Tuesday 30 April 2024

(Morning)

[Sir George Howarth in the Chair]

Tobacco and Vapes Bill

09:25

[The Chair]

I will begin with a couple of preliminary announcements. Hansard would be grateful if Members could email their speaking notes to [e-mail]. Please switch electronic devices to silent. It goes without saying, and I can see that nobody is intending to do otherwise, but tea and coffee are not allowed during sittings.

We will first consider the programme motion. We will then consider a further motion to enable the reporting of written evidence for publication, and a motion to allow us to deliberate in private about our questions before the oral evidence sessions. In view of the time available, I hope we can take these questions formally without debate.

Ordered,

That—

(1) the Committee shall (in addition to its first meeting at 9.25 am on Tuesday 30 April) meet—

(a) at 2.00 pm on Tuesday 30 April;

(b) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Wednesday 1 May;

(c) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 9 May;

(d) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 14 May;

(e) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 16 May;

(f) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 21 May;

(g) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 23 May;

(2) the Committee shall hear oral evidence in accordance with the following Table:

09:26

The Committee deliberated in private.

Examination of witnesses

Michelle Mitchell, Deborah Arnott and Sheila Duffy gave evidence.

09:34

[The Chair]

We are now sitting in public again, and our proceedings are being broadcast. Before we hear from the witnesses, do any Members wish to declare their interests in connection with the Bill?

[Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)]

I chair the all-party parliamentary group on smoking and health.

[Bambos Charalambous (Enfield, Southgate) (Lab)]

I do not know whether it is an actual declaration, but I did the Cancer Research 10k fun run in February—the winter run.

[The Chair]

That is more of a boast than a declaration of interest.

[Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)]

I am an NHS consultant paediatrician, and a member of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health.

[Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Con)]

I am a practising psychologist, and I also chair the all-party parliamentary health group.

[Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab)]

Sir George, do we have to declare our memberships of any groups? I am a member of the all-party parliamentary group for responsible vaping.

[The Chair]

Well, whether it was required or not, you have now done it.

[Dr Cameron]

I am, too.

[The Chair]

We will now hear oral evidence from Michelle Mitchell, the chief executive of Cancer Research UK, Deborah Arnott, the chief executive of Action on Smoking and Health, and Sheila Duffy, the chief executive of ASH Scotland. To begin with, I will call on Michelle Mitchell.

Michelle Mitchell: First, thank you for your openness and transparency, Sir George. It is also important to declare whether anybody giving evidence has associations with the tobacco industry; I have none. The principle of accountability and transparency is also important for the people who are giving evidence.

Smoking is the biggest cause of death, ill health and disability. It is the biggest cause of cancer in the UK. It has a huge impact on preventable deaths, the economy, productivity and of course families and loved ones. Cancer Research UK supports the legislation to create the first ever smoke-free generation and to stop young people developing addictions, risk, ill health and, of course, cancer. We believe that the rights and entitlements of current smokers are reasonably unaffected. We urge you through your considerations in Parliament to pass the legislation, as does the public, 73% of whom support the legislation.

[The Chair]

Witnesses may wish initially to introduce themselves or to make a presentation. I am open minded about that. I call Deborah Arnott.

Deborah Arnott: My name is Deborah Arnott. I am chief executive of Action on Smoking and Health. I have held that position since May 2003, so this is my 21st year. I have been around for a lot of tobacco legislation, and it is really impressive to see where successive Governments have brought us.

I do not know whether you want me to go on and make some key points. Would that be helpful?

[The Chair]

Yes.

Deborah Arnott: One thing I would say is that people have said, “Well, why do we need this? Smoking rates are going down.” The evidence is clear: if you take the foot off the pedal, smoking rates do not continue to fall. We have seen that around the world and, in recent years, we have seen that in the UK too. Indeed, our 2024 survey of 11 to 17-year-olds found that smoking rates have pretty much flatlined since before covid. The UCL smoking toolkit study is finding the same thing with adults and in particular with young adults. The smoke-free generation policy is vital to make smoking obsolete. That is the Government’s ambition, and I think it is one that everyone here shares.

I can provide you with the full youth and adult survey data, but we are still working on the detailed analysis. I was asked whether I could also talk a bit about the surveys of retailers we have done. We have published some of the data and some of this data is in addition. For many years, tobacco industry-funded trade bodies have campaigned against successive legislation, against tax increases, against the display ban and against plain packaging. ASH wanted to find out what retailers themselves thought. We commissioned NEMS Market Research to survey representative samples of managers or owners of independent shops selling tobacco. It is particularly important to understand the experiences of our small shopkeepers, as they are the ones who will have the most difficulty implementing potential legislation.

The latest survey, which was conducted in January and early February and spoke to 900 retailers in England and Wales, showed that more than half—51%—support raising the age of sale every year, with only a quarter opposing. Some 79% support fixed penalty notices for breaches of age of sale regulations, which are in the legislation, while 13% were opposed to that. Some 71% support mandatory age verification, with only one in five opposing, which is really important. The legislation does include mandatory age verification for Scotland, but not for the remaining nations of the United Kingdom. That is important because it is about creating a level playing field. It means that anyone going in to purchase tobacco knows that they will be treated the same whatever shop they go in to, which makes it easier for retailers and customers.

I was here when the smoke-free laws were being debated. There was a lot of opposition from the tobacco industry, which said those laws would be unenforceable, and that we could not stop people smoking in public places. Raising the age of sale by one year every year is a very incremental measure. Banning smoking in public places, and particularly in pubs and clubs—those of you who are old enough will remember just how smoky those places were—was a much more dramatic change. Despite that, we actually saw 98% compliance in England in the eight months after the legislation was implemented. Why? Because the measure was popular, just as this legislation is, and because it was underpinned by a good communication strategy, with clear signage in premises and guidance to business. That is what we need for this legislation. If we have that, I do not think there will be difficulties in enforcing the legislation. That is clearly what retailers think, too.

[The Chair]

Thank you. Finally, I call on Sheila Duffy. Unnecessary though it may seem, I ask each of our witnesses to state your name and title for the record—you could do it now, Sheila. The other two witnesses could do it later.

Sheila Duffy: Thank you, Sir George. My name is Sheila Duffy. I am the chief executive of ASH Scotland, which is one of four ASH organisations within the UK. We very much welcome this proposed legislation. These are strong and necessary measures. Tobacco is the most addictive lethal substance openly on sale, and these measures will incrementally clear tobacco from the shelves. However, it is a long-term measure. You cannot do just one thing with tobacco; we know that. You have to have a strategic, comprehensive programme of measures.

Circumstances in Scotland are different in some respects: our cessation services are in the health boards; we have a register for tobacco and vaping products; and we have fines for under-age sales. We in Scotland are particularly concerned about the huge rise in youth vaping, which has been driven particularly by the promotion and easy availability of cheap, brightly coloured, sweet-flavoured e-cigarettes. Moves are being made in Scotland—not, I hope, derailed by recent political changes—to end the sale of single-use disposable vapes, but we need to do more to create an environment that drives health for the next generation. Scotland committed to creating a generation free from tobacco in 2013, with an endgame target of 2034. I would urge you to introduce the strongest possible measures, close loopholes and resist the arguments and blandishments of multinational corporate industries whose interest is profit, not the health of your constituents.

[The Chair]

Thank you. I now intend to take two questions each from the Opposition spokesperson and the Minister. Given that we have very restricted time, I impress upon the witnesses that they need to be very brief in their answers.

[Preet Kaur Gill (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab/Co-op)]

Q You will have seen on Second Reading that there is almost universal agreement on the basic point that smoking is bad, and that we want to see smoking rates come down and to have a smoke-free future. A lot of Members of Parliament raised other issues, especially about raising the age of sale. Can you explain why you support a complete ban as the right way to deliver a smoke-free future?

[The Chair]

Are you going to have just one question, or do you want to put two?

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Do you want me to ask the second question now as well?

[The Chair]

Yes, please.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

My second question is on the point that Sheila raised. Clause 61 gives the Secretary of State powers to regulate on packaging, vaping or nicotine products. Clause 62 makes regulations for the Secretary of State to have powers on substances that may be included and the flavour of vaping. Do you believe that the measures in the Bill to prevent vapes appealing to children are likely to work, and where can we learn lessons to ensure their effectiveness?

[The Chair]

Minister—your questions.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Dame Andrea Leadsom)]

Do you want me to ask both questions now?

[The Chair]

Yes.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Could you talk us through ASH’s assessment of the economic cost to the UK economy of smoking? Secondly, what is your view on the importance of restricting vaping for children?

[The Chair]

Can we start with Sheila Duffy, please?

Sheila Duffy: In terms of a complete ban, you are talking about a ban on retail distribution of tobacco. The hope is that we will put it out of sight and out of fashion for the generation growing up. My preference is always to look at the product and the industry, rather than the consumer, so we need to maintain other issues like good fiscal policy, high price and tax.

On packaging and flavours, we know that the tobacco industry sold the sizzle on tobacco—it sold the image, it sold how it made people feel and it sold the very short-term-felt attractions and benefits. In the 1950s, people were recommended smoking to appear glamorous, to appear rugged and confident and to clear their chests in tuberculosis hospitals, and we did not know at that time how devastatingly harmful it was to health and how many years of life it would rob people of.

We must learn the lessons. It is the sizzle. It is the packaging, the marketing, the promotions that we must get on top of with vaping products, because that has driven the interest among young people, and the exponential —the doubling, tripling of regular use among children that were not smoking. There is a link between regular vaping and moving on to smoking, which I can send you the evidence for.

In terms of the economic cost, the World Bank looked at this years ago. Tobacco is not good value for any economy because the long-term costs are huge. What you are talking about is privatising the profit but socialising the costs, and that is a huge burden on the NHS and a huge burden on people’s lives. It undermines their health and the health of their families.

The final question was on the importance of restricting e-cigarettes for children. Well, let us learn the lessons from tobacco and let us take some strong steps to stop the next generation becoming addicted. I note that the devices mainly being used under-age and by children are of the highest permitted nicotine level. They are advertised with bright colours—cartoon characters in some places. They are absolutely all over social media and there is money going into influencing. These are being targeted. We are not talking about medicinal use. We are talking about recreational products, which are addictive and health-harming. We have to get on top of this.

[The Chair]

In view of the pressure on time, I ask the two other witnesses, if they agree with what has already been said, to say so and then make any additional points that need to be made. Obviously, if you do not agree, that changes the nature of it.

Deborah Arnott: I agree with the points being made. On the costs of smoking, the Minister has cited our figures to date—thank you for that. We have done a lot of work on this. New figures will be published next week, so we will give an update on those and on what additional costs we think there are, other than the ones that have been taken into account by the Government so far. That will be available for the Committee, too.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Q Would you state your latest research for the record, though? Obviously, this Committee is here to provide the evidence on the record.

Deborah Arnott: I would rather not summarise it now, but it will come very quickly and we can provide it to the Committee in advance of publication, so the Committee will get the full details.

[The Chair]

Thank you.

Deborah Arnott: I would like to go on to talk about Preet’s question about clauses 61 and 62, and I would also like to talk about clause 63, because they are the ones that are absolutely crucial to prevent vapes from appealing to children.

I do not know whether I am allowed to do this, but I will show the Committee these things. This is a completely reusable vape and this is a completely disposable vape. They look almost identical and they are the same price. The disposable vapes ban being implemented by DEFRA will get rid of disposable vapes—

[The Chair]

Can I interrupt you there? The rules do not allow the use of props.

Deborah Arnott: Okay, sorry. I will share them with Committee members afterwards.

[The Chair]

We will overlook the fact that you have already used them.

Deborah Arnott: Sorry—I apologise. But they are just as attractive and just as cheap. Children do not vape because they are disposable; they vape because they are cheap, attractive and available. That is what we have to address.

When it comes to flavours, clause 62 is quite a difficult clause to implement. That is why the clause says that the Secretary of State will have to specify in regulations

“how the flavour of a product is to be determined.”

This is not as easy as it sounds. The federal Government in Canada—Canada has probably the best-funded enforcement authority, in Health Canada, which has a whole directorate on tobacco and vapes—banned confectionary and dessert flavours in 2018. However, their regulations do not ban the flavours themselves; they just ban the descriptors, because that is the easy bit. They are still working on how to determine vape flavours and nearly six years on they have still not succeeded in doing so.

That has to be done with care, whereas clauses 61 and 63, which relate to product appearance, packaging and labelling, are much easier to implement and that work can be done much more quickly. Under these clauses, we could get rid of the bright colouring, cartoon-like imagery and promotional names such as those Caroline has mentioned—Unicorn Shake—or sweet names such as Gummy Bears or Banana Milkshake. Those are the things that we can get rid of easily. We need to work very carefully on the regulations to prohibit flavours to make sure that they are effective, but let us get rid of the descriptors now.

[The Chair]

Thank you. Michelle Mitchell—again, could you just make additional points that have not already been made?

Michelle Mitchell: I am Michelle Mitchell, chief executive of Cancer Research UK. I agree with the points that have been made. I will particularly respond to the question about age and potentially the postponement above 18.

The first thing that I will say is that two thirds of people die as a result of smoking. We cannot be complacent about smoking rates among younger people. Of course good progress has been made, but we cannot be complacent. We do not want to postpone people starting smoking; we want to prevent them from starting smoking. We have seen how addictive smoking is and we have seen the impact of previous increases in the age through legislation, with a 30% reduction in the number of people smoking previously between the ages of 16 and 18 when the legislation was introduced. I think that point stands strongly.

I have a prop, which I will not use, given the Chair’s views, but it would indicate, if I was allowed to use it, the tar that goes into somebody’s lungs just from smoking 10 cigarettes a day for one year. That creates damage for families, affects the productivity of the economy, impacts the NHS in a costly way and destroys lives. Strong legislation, applied with the recommendations around the legislation, is supported.

[The Chair]

Thank you. I will take two more questions from Members, one after the other.

[Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op)]

Q Public health messaging is most effective when it is simple. Should the restrictions on vaping being advertised on football shirts, for instance, be in line with those on tobacco advertising, and should there be similar restrictions on where people can vape as there are for smoking?

[Dr Johnson]

I want to ask about the passive effect of vaping. We know that if you are proximal to someone vaping you can smell the blueberry flavour, or whatever it is. Do you have any evidence on the passive health effects of vapes?

[The Chair]

Could we start with Michelle Mitchell, please?

Michelle Mitchell: I think Deborah is going to pick up on vaping.

Deborah Arnott: Actually, I think that question is best put to Professor Ann McNeill, who you are seeing this afternoon. It is a really technical question and needs to be answered by a scientist. In principle, though, as Michelle has pointed out, what cigarette smoke has in it—tar, nicotine and carbon monoxide—is much more harmful than any passive effect from vaping. It may be unpleasant, with the flavours, but that is something else.

[The Chair]

Is that the settled view of all three of you?

Michelle Mitchell: Yes.

Sheila Duffy: I just want to add to it, please. Scotland already has legislation on the books, which was fully debated and passed in the Scottish Parliament in 2016. There are three final sets of regulations to be enabled, which would allow closing down displays of vaping products in shops, on billboards and on bus shelters; ending sponsorship, which speaks to the issue of local sports clubs and so on; and stopping free samples. Scotland has the powers in law to introduce those regulations. I would hope that the Scottish Parliament and Government would move ahead with that, because it is complementary to the measures being discussed here.

In terms of aerosol and heated tobacco product aerosol, there is conclusive evidence of aerosol particulate matter, which is similar to that which has been extensively researched for air pollution, so we could expect to see similar effects. There is specific research going on, I believe in Italy, on vapour and ultrafine particles, which move differently from larger particles. We can send you further information and background on that.

I will add that, much as I respect Ann McNeill, her background is in psychology, and you probably need to be looking at air quality research. There has been some work done on that, for which I will send you references.

Michelle Mitchell: We are also happy to provide a literature and evidence review of the leading science on this issue from around the world.

[The Chair]

Thank you. I will take two more questions, from Kirsten Oswald and Bob Blackman.

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

Q To expand on a point made earlier, I wonder what more is necessary in terms of promotion and advertising action. I am very concerned about the matter of football strips and, indeed, sports stadiums being sponsored by vaping companies. The messages that that sends to the young people who are taking up vaping in such numbers is hugely problematic. It strikes me that within your areas of expertise there are probably other areas where we could extend what we are seeking to do here, in order that we do the best job possible of trying to close these loopholes.

[Bob Blackman]

All three witnesses have given support for the Bill. You have already suggested one change that could be made in terms of age verification, similar to the system in Scotland. Are there any other changes that you think should be implemented that could make the Bill stronger? One of the concerns that many of us have is that we get only a limited number of chances to deal with this challenge in primary legislation, so we need to get in as much as we can to make sure that we achieve the smoke-free England that we all want to see.

[The Chair]

We have five minutes left and I do not think there will be time for any further questions. I may have missed it, but I am not sure whether anybody responded to Rachel Maskell’s points. In responding, could you cover those as well?

Deborah Arnott: Can I just confirm, Rachael, that your question was about public health messaging, restrictions and smoke-free laws?

[Rachael Maskell]

Including where people can vape, yes.

Deborah Arnott: To go to that one first, I think it is really important—the chief medical officer has said this too—to make the distinction between smoking and vaping. Smoke-free laws were implemented after very strong evidence about second-hand smoke causing lung cancer and heart disease. We do not have that for vaping. It is important that regulations are in place, and we are seeing that—you cannot vape on public transport or aeroplanes or in most workplaces, and that is fine—but making it legislative implies that it is equivalent to smoking.

On the point about displays and promotion, our surveys show that children are most aware of the promotion of vapes in store and online, and that is where the priority has to be in strengthening the legislation. Restrictions on how products are displayed, and the packaging and labelling stuff that we have already talked about, are really important.

In terms of additional measures, on the vaping side, there is one thing that I would say is vital. At the moment, clause 63 does not allow for a change in the product requirements set out in the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations, following on from the EU tobacco products directive, which was designed in 2013, over 10 years ago. We need the Government to have powers to change the general product requirements, not just ones related to branding, and that is the other amendment on vaping that I think is really important. There are other things, but I have possibly run out of time, so we can share those with the Committee separately.

[The Chair]

That would be helpful, thank you. We are up against the clock, but is there anything additional that either of the other two witnesses want to say very briefly?

Sheila Duffy: Thank you for your time. ASH Scotland supports an increasing European movement towards SAFE—smoke and aerosol-free environments—for the sake of health. I would say, on the evidence base on tobacco, that we have 100 years of scientific evidence, and it took 30 to 60 years to see the heaviest health impacts from tobacco. We should be more cautious about e-cigarettes as recreational products. The World Health Organisation, in its call to action in December last year, suggested that they should be carefully handled as cessation products, not as a whole-population approach. We would support ambient advertising and sponsorship being closed down. In terms of what further the UK Parliament could do, use the powers you have to regulate things like social media and be very aware of the massive commercial influences on thinking, which far outweigh any resource that small third-sector advocacy organisations can bring.

Michelle Mitchell: We need to keep our eye on the big prize. We have talked about the evidence and statistics relating to smoking. This would be a world-leading piece of legislation, and we urge you in Parliament to pass it in full with the scope recommended by the Government. I think you would be leaving an incredible legacy of health, wealth and a healthy country for future generations.

[The Chair]

Thank you very much. Apologies that it was all a bit rushed, but the nature of these things is that we have to use the time as effectively as possible. On behalf of the Committee, I thank the witnesses for their helpful evidence and guidance. We very much appreciate it.

Examination of Witnesses

Dr Charmaine Griffiths and Sarah Sleet gave evidence.

10:05

[The Chair]

We will now hear oral evidence from Dr Charmaine Griffiths, the chief executive of the British Heart Foundation, and Sarah Sleet, the chief executive officer of Asthma and Lung UK. We have until 10.40 am for this session. Could I ask the witnesses to introduce themselves and give their titles for the record? Then we will move into the questions.

Dr Griffiths: Good morning. My name is Dr Charmaine Griffiths and it is my privilege to be chief executive of the British Heart Foundation.

Sarah Sleet: My name is Sarah Sleet and I am the chief executive officer of Asthma and Lung UK.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Q You will know that the Government have a clear target to narrow the gap in healthy life expectancy between the highest and lowest areas in the next five years. Do you think that smoking rates are particularly high in certain parts of the country, and are the health benefits following the ban therefore likely to be more prevalent in some places than in others? That is my first question. Secondly, I am concerned about the huge rise in youth vaping in recent years. Are you concerned about the increase in vaping even among groups who have not previously smoked cigarettes?

[The Chair]

We will also take the Minister, and then we can answer both sets of questions together.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

I am also interested in the impact of smoking and vaping on children’s hearts and lungs in particular. I would very much appreciate hearing the professional assessment of you both of the particular vulnerability of children’s lungs and hearts, as compared with adults. I know that the Opposition spokesman and I share that grave concern, as do a number of colleagues. My second question is: do you expect the smoke-free generation policy to stop young people starting smoking?

[The Chair]

I do not know which order you want to take the questions in.

Dr Griffiths: I am happy for us to do a double act between us.

Thank you for such clear questions. In terms of inequality, we know that the burden of smoking falls unevenly. We have a third more smokers in the third most deprived areas, so it affects people’s health unequally. Heart disease is the world’s biggest killer, and there is absolutely no doubt that smoking is one of the major drivers of cardiovascular disease, so the picture is clear and very well established from an inequalities point of view.

In terms of young people, we share your concern at the British Heart Foundation. It scares me to think that, today, 350 young people will start smoking for the first time—and the same tomorrow and the day after, and the day after that. We know that a huge proportion of them go on to become long-term smokers. Tragically, we see the burden and the cost to life and quality of life that that causes, with about 15,000 deaths every year across the UK from heart and circulatory disease associated with tobacco. So, we are deeply worried about people starting, and it is not just us at the British Heart Foundation who are worried. We know that the majority of smokers wish they had never started, but nicotine is an incredibly addictive substance. Once people have started, it is incredibly difficult to stop, so we share your concern.

Just to cover two things on the biology, the way that smoking is so damaging to our hearts and circulatory system is manifold. It damages the lining of our circulatory system, causing our arteries to clog up with fatty deposits, which puts us at an incredibly high risk of heart attacks and strokes. We know that a smoker’s risk of having a heart attack is double that of someone who does not smoke. For stroke, the risk is three times greater, but if someone smokes 20 cigarettes a day, they are six times more likely to have a stroke. So, there is really clear evidence on the biology that smoking is damaging.

We are deeply worried about young people starting, which is where the power of this Bill comes in. What an opportunity to create, for the first time, a smoke-free generation, relieving tens or hundreds of thousands of people from the risk of death and disability from smoking. We, as the BHF, would urge for the Bill to be pushed through in full.

[The Chair]

Sarah, is there anything you wish to add to that?

Sarah Sleet: Yes, Asthma and Lung UK very much support this bill because the effect of smoking on lung disease is profound; it is deadly. Lung disease is the third biggest killer in the UK. Of the 100,000 people who die every year, 35% of those—more than a third—are, in effect, killed by smoking. Smoking is profoundly damaging to people, their children, and those who live around them. It is not just the person smoking who is profoundly affected; it is also the family living around them.

We know that smoking drives health inequalities and is also a cause of health inequalities. We know that smoking is responsible for half of the gap between those with the best and worst life expectancy. If you really want to tackle health inequalities, you need to tackle smoking as your first port of call. It is the biggest single driver of health inequalities. People with lung disease are most exposed to that health inequality. We really support driving this forward and support everything that the BHF have said.

[The Chair]

Thank you. Can Members of the Committee who want to ask a question indicate so.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Q I asked a specific question about children’s asthma and children’s heart damage. Could I urge our witnesses to respond to that question?

Dr Griffiths: Thank you, and apologies if we did not cover that as clearly as we could have. Obviously, there is no such thing as a safe cigarette, there is no safe number of cigarettes to smoke, and there is no safe age to start smoking at all. We would emphasise our concern for children starting to smoke, because the damage starts as soon as you start smoking. There is no safe number of cigarettes to smoke. Combined with that, the fact that nicotine is so addictive that it leads to most people—over two thirds of those who start—becoming long-term smokers, worries us enormously. In terms of both the risk and the damage of starting smoking, the number of people who start and the fact that they go on to adopt a lifelong smoking habit caused by nicotine is of deep concern to us.

Sarah Sleet: It is worth thinking about children’s wider environment. Children who live in households where the adults smoke are four times more likely to smoke themselves, and find it much harder to give up. Children are getting into a cycle of deprivation and damage to their long-term health right from the very beginning. For children, stopping smoking availability is going to be profoundly helpful for their future lives, their ability to contribute to the economy and their overall prospects. This Bill, which tackles the issue from childhood up, will be one of the most profoundly important health interventions that you can make.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Q I think the Minister was referring to vapes and the evidence based around the impact on growing lungs and hearts. Is there anything you would like to say about that before we move on?

Dr Griffiths: As Deborah from ASH said, vapes are a fairly new product, so the research and evidence base, which we have in abundance for tobacco and smoking, is still forming for vaping. However, there are indications that it is not great for health. We are cautious and worried about the long-term implications. What we do know is that vaping can be an important cessation tool for those trying to quit smoking, and that many do want to quit, so we strongly encourage anything that stops smoking, but the people who are turning to vaping as an alternative to smoking for the first time is of deep concern to us. We do not understand the long-term health implications, but the addiction to nicotine deeply concerns us.

Sarah Sleet: We strongly agree. It is a very delicate balancing act between stopping the harm caused by smoking and looking to the long-term with regard to vaping. Quite clearly, smoking is far more damaging for adults and children. Anything that can steer people away from smoking will be healthier than continuing to smoke in the long run, but we do recognise that more attention and more research need to be put into vaping.

[Rachael Maskell]

Q Clearly, smoking is far more harmful than vaping, but research by UCL has shown that there are DNA methylation changes linked to carcinogens from vaping in the oral cavity, which quite probably translates to the lungs as well. Should we be looking at this legislation not with the naiveté with which smoking was looked at in the past, but rather as taking advance steps to ensure that we do not see an inducement of lung disease in the future?

Sheila Duffy: As I said earlier, it is a delicate balancing act. We need to move people away from smoking, and anything that does that is a good thing, but we need to look at the long-term effects of vaping. The balancing act in the proposals around restricting access to vaping—making sure that nobody under-age gets access to vapes, denormalising them by taking them away behind the counter and so on—all of those are good measures to reduce the number of children moving on to vaping, but they need to be enforced. We need to make sure that we have the right enforcement action in place to make sure that that actually happens.

Dr Griffiths: You gave a great example of early science that causes us concern, and it perhaps will not surprise you to know that as a body that is based in science and evidence, we at the BHF take statistics incredibly seriously. We are worried that the body of evidence will grow. We would hugely support and welcome a position where vaping was available to people as a cessation tool, but absolutely would discourage anyone else from taking it up as a starting point for nicotine consumption.

[Steve Tuckwell (Uxbridge and South Ruislip) (Con)]

Q Could you take us through the impact second-hand smoking has on health?

Dr Griffiths: It has a huge impact, and thanks to some of the previous legislation there have been some improvements that we can measure and track with great certainty. Second-hand smoke is undoubtedly a cause of cardiovascular disease, and for those people unfortunate enough to be exposed to it, it is a serious issue. Just over 15 years ago, there was a study that looked at coronary heart disease and cardiovascular disease in men. It showed a significant uplift for those exposed to second-hand smoke on a regular basis that was roughly the equivalent in risk of smoking nine cigarettes a day. So there is a very clear basis for saying that second-hand smoke causes heart and circulatory disease.

Sarah Sleet: I would add the legislation on smoking in closed places—there was of course the legislation back in 2015 about children and smoking in cars—was based on very good evidence and was introduced for very good reasons. It proved to be a popular measure. Second-hand smoke in this context as well is an important additional factor to consider in terms of the harms balanced against the need to restrict these particular products.

[Trudy Harrison (Copeland) (Con)]

Q Thank you. While the harms of vaping are becoming better understood, what do we know about the behaviours around vaping? I ask as an MP who represents the northern constituency of Copeland, where smoking levels are above the national average, where health inequalities are more prevalent, and where deprivation is also a factor. Are we seeing the same kind of mapping of deprivation in areas where people are starting to vape? Are we aware of copycat behaviour—children mimicking their parents or other people in their households—and are we starting to see some patterns in age groups starting to vape? That statistic—350 young people starting to smoke every day—is shocking. What do we know about vaping?

Dr Griffiths: Not as much as we would like. That is the headline, but I do not think it will surprise any of us to know that people follow cues in their environment. That is partly what happens around them in their social environment, but I would like to draw attention to what happens in shops and convenience stores where people buy vapes. I was looking around my local convenience store, which is not far from a school, and thinking about today. It does not take a lot to look at what is happening behind the counter and see the packaging, the marketing and the highly, brightly coloured products that are clearly labelled, named and flavoured in a way to be attractive to children, whether it be cherry cola vapes or cotton candy vapes. They are things that are deliberately sweet and targeted at children, so it causes us great concern that that will be such a huge influence on so many children. We see that playing out in prevalence. I do not know if there is anything that you would add, Sarah.

Sarah Sleet: I think you are right that there is no real evidence base around this. That research should be done and we would very much like to look at. Where smoking is very prevalent—as you say, in more deprived areas—people take cues from the people around them in terms of their behaviour. I have no doubt that look to similar cues for vaping. Are people around them smoking? Is it easy to get hold of vapes? Is it completely normalised? I think we would find a very similar pattern, but we need to get that evidence.

[Mary Kelly Foy (City of Durham) (Lab)]

Q We have heard that this Bill covers tobacco and vaping, and we have talked quite a bit about the advertising and packaging of vapes. Do you think that we could go further in actually tackling tobacco, which is the biggest killer, around the advertising and packaging of tobacco and flavoured tobacco?

Dr Griffiths: We would welcome anything that stops people smoking or beginning to vape as a starting point for their addiction to nicotine. Given the scale of the devastation that that has on people personally as well as on our NHS in terms of cost burden and all the other impacts that it has, we fully support the Bill going through in full as it is now. If there are opportunities and support for strengthening it, I am sure that we would welcome that too.

The majority of people across the UK support the Bill and would love to see a smoke-free generation. The fact that you have 51% of retailers supporting it also speaks to how powerful a moment it is. We should do anything that we can to strengthen the Bill and prevent it from being diluted. We know that the tobacco industry will be campaigning in the opposite direction to limit any restrictions that would reduce its success, so we are really mindful of that. We urge the Committee and everyone who can to protect the Bill from dilution. It can save and improve lives. It is potentially a transformative piece of legislation.

Sarah Sleet: We asked our supporters who was in favour of the Bill. Bearing in mind that many of our supporters may still be smoking or are ex-smokers, 84% supported the Bill and really wanted to see it come through. Daily on our helplines we hear people saying, “I wish I had never taken up smoking.” They are completely addicted and find it almost impossible to get out of smoking, and their health is being slowly degraded over time. They are having to come out of the workforce and retire early and potentially face death as well.

[The Chair]

We have time for another round of questions, if Members want.

[Kirsten Oswald]

Q I am grateful to you both for your comments so far. Would you say more about your thoughts on groups of people, particularly young people —this is a thing you will hear around the table—who are taking up vaping but have not previously smoked. Do the measures in the Bill go as far as you want in trying to prevent that from being the direction of travel?

Dr Griffiths: If the Committee is minded to strengthen anything that would prohibit people from starting vaping in the first instance, where they are not doing so as a cessation tool—I hope it is really clear that we believe that, as a cessation tool, this is a product that has its place that would help thousands of smokers give up and, ideally, prevent them from losing their quality of life or, tragically, their lives; I hope that is explicitly clear—I think that could have incredible impact. What we are worried about is people using vaping as a start and an entry point to nicotine. Nicotine is so highly addictive. You see that in the number of smokers who desperately want to give up. We have spoken to such people in abundance. Anything that helps us get to that point would be welcome.

Sarah Sleet: Nicotine, we know, is as addictive as heroin and cocaine. It is a terrible addiction. However, in terms of vaping, it is going to be quite tricky to get that balancing act right. We really need to have vaping as a cessation tool. We know it is more effective than just about anything else you can have in terms of cessation. For example, when it comes to flavouring, if you make that too difficult or make it problematic for people to switch, then there is a chance that we may have a real problem in terms of stopping smoking. On the other hand, we really do not want people to be attracted into vaping who have never smoked. I understand that that bit of the legislation is in secondary legislation and can be adapted over time; I think a lot of attention is going to need to be given to how people are actually responding and how they are behaving, and then adjusting that over time.

[Angela Richardson (Guildford) (Con)]

Q You have been quite clear that even though we do not yet have the evidence to understand the impacts of vaping, it is a very important cessation tool. Do you see a world in which it could be prescribed as a cessation tool, as opposed to being available as a retail product?

Sarah Sleet: I believe that is the system in Australia—it is prescribed. I think it is a possibility. It needs to be well researched. Would it still encourage people who need to stop smoking to use it as a tool, or would it put a barrier up to using that tool? Before we move to that system, we would need some really good behavioural evidence that it is not going to be a further barrier for people. If it is not, then that could be a really good option.

[The Chair]

I am going to take the Minister at this point, and then Preet Kaur Gill.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Q Some people say that the smoking generation does not need to be raised a year higher every single year. Can you say for the record what your view is of that? Does it need to keep lifting each year?

Dr Griffiths: We support the Bill exactly as it is written at the moment. It is really important to recognise that, as proposed, it does not inhibit anybody who is currently a smoker from purchasing tobacco, but it does take us on a really clear and, I believe, a transformative path to a smoke-free generation.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

I understand that, but why?

Dr Griffiths: Because it is a really clear path to make sure that we move to a situation where we have a generation that is prohibited from buying cigarettes, and who are disincentivised from doing so.

Sarah Sleet: We have heard today the evidence about just how harmful and destructive smoking is, particularly for people in more deprived areas. If we really want to tackle that, we need to remove smoking as a normalised, available, legal option going forward. This seems to me a very measured and thoughtful way of introducing a smoking ban that will take hold. It is very important for our children going forward.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Q I want to ask about the information that is given to parents, especially if their children have never smoked but have taken up vaping. We know that a generation of children is becoming addicted to nicotine because products that have been classified as 0% nicotine do actually contain it. One of the parents that I spoke to asked, “Well, how many puffs are there in one vape? If my child has two or three of those in a day, what does that actually mean?” It is about the information on that sort of risk, and how we share that information with parents who are trying to address this issue with their children. Is there anything you want to say about that, and is there any research being done to look at that?

Dr Griffiths: I would observe that there is so much variation between products and how people are consuming them. I think it is quite difficult to give advice in a standard way, and that it is part of it being an emergent product and market. As we have discussed, there is no doubt that, with nicotine being so deeply addictive, it is an incredible worry that a child has a single puff on a vape, given the potency of nicotine and where we know it leads people, having seen that over generations with smoking.

I should perhaps take a moment to emphasise that we also really support the £70 million investment being allocated to public health campaigning and cessation services, as well as enforcement. You are right that we need to be really clear with the messaging of the Bill to encourage support from parents and others around children in particular. We really applaud the decision to put resourcing behind this as well. We know that effective public campaigning can be an incredibly powerful tool. We were really proud to run the “Give Up Before You Clog Up” fatty cigarette campaign way back 20 years ago, and we know even that campaign led to 14,000 smokers seeking to quit. We know public campaigning works, and it was a great thought to allocate that resource as part of this work—it will be needed.

Sarah Sleet: The variation in nicotine levels and the method of delivery, which affects the uptake of the nicotine, is undoubtedly very concerning in vapes. I am a mother of three adult children who all vape, and I am very concerned about how often they are doing that and what impact that is having. We must also remember that, from what we know at the moment, it would appear that smoking is far and away the most damaging activity, compared with vaping. There is a little bit of concern that we overemphasise the harms of vaping to the extent that people say, “Well, I might as well smoke then. I’ll do that instead.” We need to be very careful about how we have this conversation.

[Dr Cameron]

Q I want to follow up on something that both of you alluded to earlier in the evidence you have given. Is there any research beginning to form that suggests that, while vaping can be helpful for cessation, it might also be a gateway to smoking itself for young people?

Dr Griffiths: That is an interesting question, and I can see the clear linkage you have described, but I am not able to provide any evidence. I am very happy to go back and provide that as a follow-up.

Sarah Sleet: I am not aware of any evidence around that either.

Dr Griffiths: It is a great question.

[The Chair]

I call Dr Caroline Johnson, and this will be the final question.

[Dr Johnson]

Q In the Health Committee, of which I am a member, we heard evidence that some schoolchildren with lung diseases, such as asthma, were not able to visit school toilets during the day because the overwhelming smell of people vaping in there was triggering their asthma. Have you heard anything about that? Do you have any evidence about asthma in children or adults being triggered by vaping?

Sarah Sleet: We have heard anecdotally that people have had issues with being around vaping, but there is not any robust evidence as to whether it genuinely triggers asthma for some of those people. It is an area we want to look into a bit further, but I would say that here is a clear case of where the law is that children should not be vaping. We need to ensure that enforcement is in place, as far as possible, to prevent that from happening.

[Dr Johnson]

Q Is that an absence of evidence, or does evidence exist but is inconclusive?

Sarah Sleet: I am not aware of any serious evidence that has been gathered around this at this stage. It probably needs to be looked at.

[The Chair]

I thank the two witnesses for being not only concise, which enabled us to get through all the questions, but informative. I am sure we have benefited from the evidence you have given.

Examination of Witnesses

Matthew Shanks and Patrick Roach gave evidence.

10:35

[The Chair]

Q The third panel consists of Matthew Shanks, the chair of the Secondary Headteacher Reference Group, and Patrick Roach, general secretary of the NASUWT. We have until 11.10 am for this session. Will the two witnesses state their names and titles for the benefit of the record, please?

Matthew Shanks: I am Matthew Shanks, the chair of the Secondary Headteacher Reference Group. I am also CEO of a MAT or multi-academy trust in Devon, Education South West.

Patrick Roach: Good morning. I am Patrick Roach. I am general secretary of NASUWT, the teachers’ union.

[The Chair]

We will move straight into the questions. Preet Kaur Gill will ask the first question, and then I will move to the Minister for her first question.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Q Thank you, Chair, and I thank the witnesses for giving evidence today. First, is under-age smoking or vaping the bigger issue in schools today, and what is the impact on education, behaviour and so on? Secondly, will the measures in the Bill to restrict sales of vaping products to children under 18 work, in your opinion?

Matthew Shanks: It is an interesting question, whether vaping or smoking is more popular among children in schools. All I can say is that it has increased in the past three or four years. We see evidence of vaping; it is more difficult to catch children vaping, because of the size of the vapes, the fact that the smell is slightly different and does not set off smoke alarms in the same way, and so on. I think it is fair to say that smoking and vaping are still as popular as they were among younger children in certain areas, and vaping is being seen to be a safe alternative.

The marketing of vapes in different flavours and colours makes them akin to a progression from chewing gum for some families—with bubble gum flavours and so on. There is also anecdotal evidence of parents talking about, “If it’s grapefruit, it must be safe.” There is that evidence around it as well out there—because of the way in which vapes are marketed, and if you see them in shops, they seem safe and okay.

With behaviour, the size of vapes makes it very difficult to admonish children, because they can hide them very easily. They can look like mini hard drive sticks—I think that is deliberate targeting in how they are marketed, with the cleverness of it. Certainly in terms of behaviour, it is something else that we are dealing with, when we say to a child, a teenager, “You’ve been vaping”, but they say, “No, I haven’t”—there is nowhere for us then to go, which immediately sets up an issue.

The earlier question about toilets was interesting, because children tend to vape in toilets. It is easier for them to vape in toilets than it was for them to smoke in toilets. You just need to see people on public transport vaping—it is easy for it to dissipate and disappear quickly. So, yes, I would say that vaping is a real issue in schools for children.

Patrick Roach: I support fully what Matthew has just said. I do not think that it is an either/or; the reality is that smoking is a threat to children and young people, in terms of their health and wellbeing and their ability to participate and progress educationally, but so too is vaping.

The NASUWT, at the start of this academic year, published our own research into vaping in schools from the perspective of teachers and school leaders, and it very much reinforces what Matthew has just said, in that vaping is pretty much predominant as an activity taking place among secondary-aged pupils. But we are also seeing teachers reporting pupils vaping from as early as 10 years of age, so the primary phase is also impacted. Three quarters of teachers report a significant increase in the participation in vaping by pupils in their schools, so we are seeing an upward curve in respect of vaping activity within schools.

On the issues that have just been mentioned about the difficulty that schools have in detecting and controlling this kind of behaviour, the way in which vape products are available to pupils is that they are masquerading as hard drives, as highlighter sticks or as other things that it would be legitimate for a pupil to bring into school. This is not like a situation in which you catch a pupil with a packet of cigarettes and you confiscate it; first, you have to identify what on earth it is that that pupil has. At the end of the day, good order in schools is dependent upon there being trust and respectful relationships between teachers and students. You cannot go around every moment of every day asking pupils to turn out their pockets and then inspecting what is in them.

The reality is that we are seeing the impact of vaping not just on pupils’ health, because we are seeing pupils who are presenting as ill as a result of the overuse of vaping products—although, in fact, all of it is overuse—and therefore becoming ill in schools, but on educational participation, progression and achievement. When pupils are diving off into the toilets to vape, that interrupts teaching and learning. When pupils are late arriving at school, perhaps because they have been vaping en route, that impacts on pupils’ learning. We are also seeing bullying behaviours within schools because, quite often, vaping products are being informally circulated, exchanged or acquired. Therefore, it becomes another source of behavioural challenges for teachers and head teachers. So, from a teacher’s perspective, vaping is a serious issue within schools, and one that we are pleased that this Bill is seeking to address.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Q Thank you so much for being here, and also particularly for the work that the NASUWT has done in terms of the impact on schools. Could you expand on that a bit further? I have done a couple of visits ahead of this Bill. I met enforcement officers, for example, who gave me anecdotal evidence that teachers say that pupils will return to the classroom with their eyes spinning and unable to concentrate because of the heady nature of whatever it is they have just been vaping or smoking. There was another anecdote about a school where children decided to drink the vape fluid and the school actually had to have a sort of emergency evacuation as a result of that.

Could you therefore expand on that, in terms of the specific health impacts and, at the one end, the ability of children to concentrate on the class when they are spaced out on vapes, and, at the other end, the very real risk to children from doing something stupid with a vape that was entirely unintended, with disastrous consequences?

Patrick Roach: I very much appreciate your remarks about the research that the NASUWT has undertaken. We come at the problem of vaping from the point of view of our members in classrooms, in schools the length and breadth of the country. What do teachers need in order to be able to teach effectively and what do they believe that pupils need in order to learn effectively? They need good order in the classroom.

My perspective is not that of a medical practitioner or of someone wanting to assume that I have the knowledge about the impact of vaping on a child’s physical development. Our concern is the impact on a child’s educational development, participation and achievement. The reality is that everything you have mentioned there is absolutely right, whether it is about the way in which vaping products might be unintentionally used by pupils; or about how they seek to conceal them about their person; or, indeed, the drinking of vaping fluids, as if somehow that will get the high without necessarily being detected; or about the use of vaping products as a stimulant, which impacts not only on concentration but on behaviour and, indeed, on a child’s wellbeing in the classroom.

Matthew has already referenced the difficulty of detecting vapes sometimes, because they can dissipate very quickly; and they can also trigger fire alarms in schools. We have had plenty of examples of teachers and headteachers reporting that their school has had to evacuate the building not just on one or two occasions in a day but multiple times—five or six occasions. That is a loss of learning not just for one pupil or class of pupils but the entire school. We are really concerned about the impact of all that.

Teachers are not just concerned about a child’s educational development, though; they are also concerned about a child’s wellbeing in the round. Teachers are reporting the very damaging impact that vaping can have on a child’s mental and physical development, just as smoking can. That is one of the reasons we have spoken out—and we are pleased that the Government have responded—to say that we need to be doing more to strengthen the enforcement of rules around vaping, access to it and the availability for school-age pupils. We need to do as much as we possibly can to prevent any school-age pupil from getting access to vaping products, whether in or outside school. We are pleased that the Bill seeks to do just that.

Matthew Shanks: I absolutely echo and reinforce what Patrick has said. Also, as school leaders we are looking after teachers, but we are caring for families as well. The Bill will help families to understand that it is not okay for their children to vape. Anecdotally we have parents saying to us that they let children vape at home, because it is better than them smoking or being out on the streets; parents do not see the harm in it. It is really important that that is recognised. The banning of tobacco sale was interesting in terms of the prescription of it; I would posit that at the moment vaping is seen as safe by the general public.

[Kirsten Oswald]

Q I wonder if you can develop some of the points you have made, which have been very useful. I am hearing anecdotally about issues in schools where the addiction of children to these vapes is itself causing a problem, because the children are unable to sit in the classroom and have to go out to vape, with whatever excuse is made, so that they then feel able to come back to the classroom, such is the level of their addiction to these products. If I may go beyond that slightly, what are your views on the way these things are promoted—for instance, on our particular concern about vape companies advertising on sports strips and in sports stadiums, and the impact on the same young people who are so addicted?

Matthew Shanks: I completely agree. The way in which vapes are marketed—the colours, flavours and so on—and the places where they are marketed suggest to people that they are safe. The fact that they are put forward as a “safe” alternative to cigarettes, the fact that parents use them and the fact that there are lots of colourful vape shops open in high streets: all those aspects promote the idea that vaping is okay.

At the same time, getting into a child’s mindset—we have all been there, as children—we like to break the rules and feel like we are pushing at boundaries. We know that it is not okay, but it is made okay. I would suggest that more children engage in vaping than in cigarette smoking, because they are not sure what the harmful effects are. That is the danger in it. I do think it leads on, because the younger children vape, but by the time they are 16 or 17, vaping might not be cool any more, so they go on to cigarettes or other things.

Anecdotally, we have heard of schools down in the south-west where people are putting cannabis into the vapes, so the addiction grows from that point of view as well. It leads to children coming out of lessons agitated. If I did not have three coffees in the morning, my agitation would be quite high. If children are not getting nicotine, as well as going through all the other things they are going through, they really do present as confrontational to staff, which makes it difficult to deal with them in classrooms and engage them in their learning. At the same time, to repeat a point I made earlier, you have parents at home who are saying, “Well, it’s okay to do.” I absolutely concur about the way it is marketed and so on.

Patrick Roach: To add to that, because those are important points: vape producers and manufacturers, and indeed those supplying vapes, are advertising freely in ways that make their products increasingly attractive to children and young people, with the way vapes are advertised and the marketing descriptors used for them. All the evidence we have, and certainly what our members tell us—our survey was of 4,000 teachers, so this is not anecdotal; it has an impact right across the system— suggests that the way those products are marketed and described deliberately seeks to entice young people to make use of them.

We believe that this is a strong Bill that very clearly sets out the societal expectations in this space, but as with any legislation, there is always scope for loopholes. If there are areas in the Bill where there is potential to further strengthen the legislation, I think the enticing way products are described, before an individual understands what they are getting themselves into, is something that needs to be considered and addressed.

From our point of view, it is about advertising, but it is also about access to these products. With the best will in the world, and no matter how they are advertised, if the products are easily available at the point of sale it makes things incredibly difficult. I remember that when I was bringing up my own children I worried about going to the supermarket with them, because they would be surrounded by candy and sweet products at the checkouts. You could not navigate your way through the checkouts. Thankfully, things have moved on: that has changed, and many parents are benefiting from those changes.

Young people are very much interacting with many of these products at the point of sale. They are in the shops that are in the vicinity of or on the route to and from school. They are being marketed in places that young people will frequent, whether that be a local café, the hairdressers or the barbers. They are in places where young people will be. They are also immediately available. The more we can do to stop the immediacy of marketing of these products and that easy availability, no matter how they are described, the better.

[Dr Cameron]

Q I have been hearing from parents and schools in my constituency that they are very concerned that children are going out at lunchtime and spending their lunch money on vapes, so they are not having anything nutritious during the day. Is there any evidence that indicates that there might be a pattern developing in that respect that will have an impact on children’s physical health and wellbeing?

Matthew Shanks: Absolutely: children will find any which way they can to do what they want to do. At the moment, while this is not illegal, they will gather more people to follow the crowd and go out. In my experience, the majority of children want to do as they are instructed—probably about 85%, anecdotally, over the years—but they will follow the herd. At the moment, there is a greater herd growing because of all the things we have talked about, with the marketing and colour of vapes. I can absolutely see children going out at lunchtime and spending their money on that, instead of on food. There is peer pressure to do that as well—it is taking more people with them. As Patrick said, you can see these products in the barbers, in the shops and so on.

Patrick Roach: To add to that, there are also bullying behaviours that manifest themselves. Whether a pupil is making the choice to go out at lunchtime to acquire vapes or is feeling coerced to do so, there is an issue either way. The availability of those products in the proximity of schools needs to be considered. That is a point that we would make.

Increasingly, schools have introduced systems to seek to ensure that children are being fed at lunch times, for example. We should not lose sight of that, but in some instances these products—particularly disposable vapes —are cheap as chips. I know that that is an issue of concern to the Government, and it is of concern to us and our members.

It is really important that we look at how we can ban the sale of disposable vapes entirely, because frankly no one knows what is in them, and they are incredibly cheap to acquire. Even if your parent can see what you had on Tuesday lunchtime because it comes up on their phone, how will they know if you have spent 10 minutes popping out to the local shop to acquire some vapes, particularly if they are of the disposable variety? More can be done not only to limit appeal, but to reduce the availability and accessibility of those products to young people. The more that can be done on that, the better.

[The Chair]

Four more people want to get in—actually, it has just gone up to five—and we have about 12 or 13 minutes left. It is unlikely that I will be able to get everybody in, but if Members put their questions as briefly as possible and witnesses respond as concisely as possible, I will try.

[Rachael Maskell]

Q There is nothing magical about your 18th birthday, but the legislation clearly talks about 18 being a cut-off age. Would it assist if that age were heightened—for instance, it is 20 in Japan and 21 in California—not least because of the impact of nicotine and cannabis, which have been mentioned? I have been hearing about synthetic drugs as well.

Matthew Shanks: Yes. I absolutely agree.

[The Chair]

That is really helpful.

Patrick Roach: I am not going to add to that, partly because I am here representing the interests of our members. The issue is about how we can control access to products, particularly illegal products, for school-age pupils. We therefore think that it is absolutely right that the Bill has identified the need to secure robust measures to protect the health and wellbeing of children and young people.

[Bob Blackman]

Q You talked about the escalation whereby young people, possibly as young as 10, start by vaping and then go on to other tobacco substances. What further measures would be required, in your view? What further support would teachers need to explain the harm that young people are doing to themselves as a result of vaping and smoking?

Matthew Shanks: There are lots of campaigns that explain the harms of vaping and smoking. Sometimes people do not listen and do not engage with them. The only thing that I would say is that more people vape and smoke than take drugs, because drugs are illegal. If we are saying that tobacco is dangerous and harmful to people in our society, and our role is to protect them and educate them to see what is better, why is tobacco not illegal as well? Vaping started as an alternative to tobacco, but it is now catching on with young people. Is there a similar thing to be done with vapes? That is the view within schools on how we can help children to engage in what they should be doing at school, which is working at their education. There will be other things that have come along, but 15 years ago it was chewing gum everywhere—nicotine chewing gum was a big thing.

Patrick Roach: The reality is that schools are doing an awful lot to inform, to educate and indeed to regulate the conduct of children and young people, as well as to engage with parents and carers, but schools by themselves cannot change society. They can have a tremendous influence over wider society, but by themselves they cannot change it.

Anything that we can continue to do to educate young people about the harms and dangers of smoking and vaping, we should continue to do. Notwithstanding this legislation, that is essential, because no legislation is going to eliminate illegality. We have to continue to strive to eradicate those behaviours wherever they manifest themselves.

What other practical measures could the Bill include? I have mentioned the way in which vape products are described. We think that something could be done there. On availability—this is potentially outwith the scope of the Bill, but it could happen through other legislation and regulation—we think that the prohibition of disposable vapes is an issue that needs to be addressed.

There is also the issue of enforcement measures. There is no point in passing legislation if it is not enforced in practice. We need to ensure that the enforcement measures are absolutely robust. The proximity to schools of any retailer selling vaping products also needs to be looked at.

[Mary Kelly Foy]

Q Following on from Bob’s question, you are in a position to educate young people about the harms of tobacco. Is there a point here about educating young people about the harms, about the unscrupulous measures that the tobacco industry takes and about the horrific products that it is making? Young people are often interested in climate change and wider issues. These industries and organisations are having an impact across the whole world. It could be something that young people are interested in—not just for their health, but for the wider impact on their local communities and across the world. If we had more funding for education, maybe with a payer levy, those types of measures could be looked at. Is there any opportunity for that type of education in schools?

Matthew Shanks: That is happening at the moment within education, in curriculums and so on, but there is a lack of messaging around vaping, its harmful effects and its cheapness compared with tobacco. Even with the teaching of the harmful effects and the messaging compared with tobacco, there are still some families who smoke and you still see celebrities smoking. You are fighting that all the time.

It is good that we are educating young children about the harmful effects of things and the need to change, and we will continue to do that. We talk about big tobacco companies, big pharma, the global environment and so on, all within the curriculum.

Patrick Roach: The reality is that we need more space in the curriculum to do all that and to make the connections between vaping, the impact on a child’s health, and how these companies are profiteering, often from the most vulnerable. The producers of vaping products, the degradation of the environment, the way products are manufactured—all of this is very rich territory.

I would like to see more by way of permission for teachers and school leaders to engage with their pupils about the real everyday concerns that young people have. There should be more scope and space in the curriculum to do that. That is not to argue against the teaching of maths, science and languages; it is about saying that we want to produce well-rounded individuals. For us, that is the purpose of education. This is an area where educators have an important role to play.

Matthew Shanks: I would just add to that by encouraging you to visit your local schools and see what they are doing.

[Angela Richardson]

Q This morning, in evidence from previous witnesses, we heard a lot about how vaping is a great smoking cessation tool, but there is not enough evidence about the harms of vaping. You have described social harms; you probably see health harms as well. You have surveyed people, and you have come to give evidence this morning. Have you been asked, outside this, for evidence of the harm from vaping to the young people you look after? Do you believe that the evidence gathering on whether vaping is harmful is going at a fast enough pace?

Matthew Shanks: No, prior to now. This is very welcome, which is why we have both given our time because this is important. There was something in the papers this morning about evidence of harms of vaping for children, but it is not the headline; it is seven or eight pages in, so people will not read it.

I absolutely think that there should be more about the harm of vaping or just the unknown. You do not know necessarily what the dangers are, so therefore why would you engage in it? We talk a lot when we are doing drug prevention with children about—apologies if this offends—where the drugs come from, what the base of them is and what they contain. In the same way, you do not know what is in a disposable vape or another type of vape, so why would you put that in your body? Those are the lessons we are talking about, so we would certainly welcome more evidence to support that.

Patrick Roach: We know, from the feedback we have had from teachers as part of the research we have done, which includes both quantitative and qualitative feedback, that children are getting ill as a result of using vaping products. That is the daily reality that school leaders and teachers have to deal with.

The more that we can systematically collect and collate that data and evidence—whether that is a child who ended up being rushed into hospital because they became very ill on the school premises or, indeed, a near miss within the school—the better we will be. But the reality is, on an everyday basis, that teachers are experiencing this and having to deal with these issues and to intervene on and support pupils who are impacted physiologically by other harms of vaping products.

[The Chair]

A very brief final question from Dr Caroline Johnson. We have to finish at 10 past 11, so I ask the witnesses to bear that in mind.

[Dr Johnson]

Q I want to ask about flavourings because we have heard that flavourings may encourage some adults to switch. We know that where adults stop smoking using vapes, flavourings might prolong their addiction to vapes, and we know that flavourings entice children to vape. Some people say that we need to keep the flavours for the adults; some people say no flavours because they entice children. To govern is to choose, so which do you think is the most important—supporting adults to stop smoking or protecting children from starting vaping?

Matthew Shanks: A simple question to finish with—thank you! I think you can have both, because I would. If you look at the way cigarettes are marketed—behind a shelf with the pictures of the damage they cause—that is different from the way vapes are marketed, with their colourful packaging and excellent flavours that appeal to children. If you change the way they are marketed, you could have both, because you could still help adults with the flavourings but not make them appealing to children.

Patrick Roach: A simple answer: protect children from harm.

[The Chair]

I thank the witnesses for giving us a very particular perspective that we have not previously heard about on how all this impacts on teaching and the education sector in general. We are grateful for that, and I am sure the Committee found it helpful.

Examination of witness

Paul Farmer gave evidence.

11:09

[The Chair]

Q We will now hear evidence from Paul Farmer, who is the chief executive of Age UK. This brief session will last only until 11.25 am, so the time will need to be snappily used. Mr Farmer, this seems unnecessary, but for the record can you simply state your name and title?

Paul Farmer: Good morning, everyone. I am Paul Farmer and I am chief executive of Age UK, the charity supporting older people.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Q Welcome, Paul. It is good to have you here. My first question is simple and straightforward: what is Age UK’s view on the Bill?

My second question is this. I know that over-65s are much less likely to smoke. I have a constituent, Eric, who has suffered from a stroke and has suffered with chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and is now a tobacco campaigner in his 80s. Why is this Bill important to the people Age UK works with?

Paul Farmer: Age UK fully supports the proposed legislation, and we have been working alongside the Richmond Group of Charities to highlight the significant health benefits of phasing out smoking, which will help individuals and have a wider impact on society. It will have particular benefits for the NHS, which as we know faces significant challenges at the moment.

Our job at Age UK is to think about not just the health and wellbeing of older people as they are now—I will come to your second question in a moment—but issues affecting future generations of older people. This is quite a rare opportunity for us to have a significant impact on those future generations for reasons we will look at later.

It is worth noting, however, that this Bill is heavily supported by older people. Polling shows that 69% of over-65s support it. Why is that? That goes to your second question. We know from older people and the work we are currently doing that health and wellbeing in later life is pretty much the top priority for older people. Age UK has recently published our blueprint for older people for the next few years, as we enter an election year. It is very clear from the work we have done with older people that health and wellbeing is right at the heart of what is most important for people.

Of course, that is logical: the ability to feel well, remain active and maintain our independence is a major determinant of the quality of life that we aspire to in later life. We also know that there is a huge gulf in life expectancy and life experiences between those who have the opportunity to age well and those who do not. I will not go into the points your earlier witnesses made about the importance of healthy life expectancy in detail, but that is right at the heart of older people’s considerations. It is important that we do something about the fact that healthy life expectancy for those who are most disadvantaged is quite so stark.

How does that affect smoking? As you know, smoking is a leading cause of death and disability. It is responsible for half the difference in healthy life expectancy between the most and the least affluent communities. People living in the areas with the lowest healthy life expectancy are 1.7 times more likely to smoke than those living in the highest healthy life expectancy areas. These are fundamental reasons why the intervention of this legislation will make a difference.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Q I really appreciate your being here—thank you. I would like to tackle the fact that young people tend not to consider either their own mortality or their health and wellbeing. The majority of young people tend to take those for granted, and yet there is a complete correlation: the age at which you take up smoking—or, indeed, vaping—is when you are young and feel pretty immortal, or are at least not concerned about later life.

Could you give us a view, as an Age UK representative, of the sort of advice that older people who have smoked all their lives and are now bearing the brunt of the decisions they took would give to those who argue, “It’s a matter of personal choice. Everyone should be free to smoke if they want”? What would an older person say to that young person?

Paul Farmer: I think a lot of people would say that they wish they had never started. Those are certainly the conversations we have been having with older people in preparation for this session. The reason for that is that, as you enter into your later life, you start to understand the consequences of smoking through your personal experience. The list is frightening.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Q For the record, can you outline some of those experiences? Obviously this is a public evidence session and we are looking to make the strong case for this Bill.

Paul Farmer: Very clearly, there is the relationship between smoking and multiple forms of cancer, COPD, pneumonia, heart disease, aortic aneurysm and stroke, vascular diseases, diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis, hip fracture, cataract and macular degeneration—and dementia. In a society where we are increasingly debating dementia’s impact, I think the relationship between smoking and dementia is a really important context.

These are in and of themselves very challenging physical health conditions, but we can also see the correlation with people who experience multiple long-term conditions. I think many older people who experience those multiple long-term conditions—who have to live with the impact of them often because they smoked in their early life—would say this impacts on the individual being able to do the things they want to do in their later life. There is a severe detriment on pursuing their ambitions of later life as a result of having smoked in earlier years.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

My last point: may I just pursue that—

[The Chair]

Very briefly.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Q Thank you. Would that older person suffering those consequences say: “Yes, it was all a matter of free choice”?

Paul Farmer: I think different people will have different opinions about choice, and whether it was as a result of choice. I think what many older people have been telling us is that if they had known about the damaging consequences of smoking, they would not have started in the first place and would certainly have considered it in a greater way.

I want to pay huge tribute to colleagues at British Heart Foundation, who I know you have just heard from, who I think have taken the best way of trying to campaign over a long term on this issue. This is a long-term issue. Sadly today’s generation of older people is seeing the consequences of what has not happened.

[Kirsten Oswald]

Q Could you explain who “older people” are? Sadly, I recently recognised that that might include more of us than we might like to believe. We need to take that on board. What I am really interested in are the different demographic groups, and where you think there might be disproportionate levels of harm from tobacco and vaping within the groups of older people that you support.

Paul Farmer: We work with people over the age of 50, which may be news to some of you here. One of the reasons why we have recently chosen to drop the age group that we increasingly work with is precisely for prevention and early intervention.

This is not the earliest intervention; you can, of course, argue that many health interventions need to take place among children and younger people. However, from an Age UK point of view, we know that there is potential to intervene in people’s lives and support them to live healthier lives—it is not just about health, but in this context it is mainly about health—which means that your healthy life expectancy can improve and, as I mentioned earlier, you can fulfil some of the ambitions of your later life. The burden on the NHS of unhealthy life expectancy is a big issue.

The bulk of our direct work is with people over pensionable age, if you like. In each of those generations, you see the differences in experiences of smoking. Somebody now in their 80s or 90s almost certainly will not be alive if they are a heavier smoker, because they probably will not have benefited from any of the public health information that has taken place under previous Governments, so that is obviously the major difference.

In terms of the different health conditions, we know that certain health conditions will increase with age. Dementia is the greatest example of that, where we know that the older you are, the more likely you are to develop dementia. In a sense, as our population as a whole has gotten healthier and lived longer, it has become increasingly apparent where those health inequalities are at their most acute.

[The Chair]

I will attempt one final question from Dr Lisa Cameron. I simply make the point that the briefer the question, the more possibility there is that she will get an answer.

[Dr Cameron]

Q Thank you; I will be very brief. Do you think it is fair to describe older adults as having made a choice, when perhaps it was not an informed choice, given the misinformation and lack of evidence at the time that they made the choice to start smoking?

Paul Farmer: I think a lot of people made a choice without having the information in front of them. I suppose my parting thought to this Committee is that the consequences of failing to intervene in previous generations are now seen by the older people of today. If this legislation is implemented, the first generation of people will not reach 65 until 2074, but I can tell you that that generation of 65-year-olds will look back and recognise the contribution that the Government have made to changing and impacting on their long-term health in the same way that this generation looks back on the contribution of other Governments in other health initiatives.

[The Chair]

I thank the witness for his answers to the questions from Members, which were really helpful. They gave us not only the perspective of those who his organisation represents, but the intergenerational nature of their role in the world. That brings us to the end of this morning’s sitting. The Committee will meet again at 2 pm here in the Boothroyd room to continue taking oral evidence.

Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(Aaron Bell.)

11:22

Adjourned till this day at Two o’clock.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Second sitting)

Committee stage
Tuesday 30th April 2024 Public Bill Committees

The Committee consisted of the following Members:

Chairs: Gordon Henderson, Sir George Howarth, † Sir Gary Streeter, Dame Siobhain McDonagh

† Aiken, Nickie (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)

† Baker, Duncan (North Norfolk) (Con)

† Bell, Aaron (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Con)

† Blackman, Bob (Harrow East) (Con)

† Cameron, Dr Lisa (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Con)

† Charalambous, Bambos (Enfield, Southgate) (Lab)

† Foy, Mary Kelly (City of Durham) (Lab)

† Gill, Preet Kaur (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab/Co-op)

† Glindon, Mary (North Tyneside) (Lab)

† Harrison, Trudy (Copeland) (Con)

† Johnson, Dr Caroline (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)

† Leadsom, Dame Andrea (Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care)

† Maskell, Rachael (York Central) (Lab/Co-op)

† Oswald, Kirsten (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)

† Richardson, Angela (Guildford) (Con)

† Tuckwell, Steve (Uxbridge and South Ruislip) (Con)

† Wakeford, Christian (Bury South) (Lab)

Katya Cassidy, Kevin Maddison, Lucinda Maer, Committee Clerks

† attended the Committee

Witnesses

Cllr David Fothergill, Deputy Chair of the LGA, Chairman of the LGA Community Wellbeing Board and Leader of the Opposition at Somerset Council, Local Government Association

Greg Fell, President, Association of Directors of Public Health

Ailsa Rutter OBE, Director, Fresh and Balance North East

Adrian Simpson, Policy Adviser – Retail Products, British Retail Consortium

John Herriman, CEO, Chartered Trading Standards Institute

Kate Pike, CTSI Lead Officer for Vaping, Chartered Trading Standards Institute

Laura Young, Centre for Water Law, Policy and Science, University of Dundee

Public Bill Committee

Tuesday 30 April 2024

(Afternoon)

[Sir Gary Streeter in the Chair]

Tobacco and Vapes Bill

Examination of Witnesses

Councillor David Fothergill and Greg Fell gave evidence.

14:00

[The Chair]

We will now hear from Councillor David Fothergill, deputy chair of the Local Government Association, and Greg Fell, president of the Association of Directors of Public Health. We have until 2.30 pm for this session. I ask the witnesses to introduce themselves for the record—I do not really need opening statements, because we will have plenty of questions for you, but if you want to add a sentence to your introduction, I will not object.

Cllr Fothergill: Thank you for the invite this afternoon to speak on behalf of the Local Government Association, which speaks for all councils across England and Wales. I will present a combined view to you. I am chair of the community wellbeing board, the lead policy board, which is responsible for adult social care and health matters. I am delighted to be here. On the whole, we are supportive of the Bill, and that will be the thrust of the evidence I give.

Greg Fell: I, too, thank the Committee. I am Greg Fell, director of public health in Sheffield and president of the UK Association of Directors of Public Health, thus representing DPH. Similarly, all DPH strongly support the Bill—I have yet to find a public health professional who does not, as I do not think that one exists, particularly on the smoking elements. No other product is as uniquely dangerous as smoking; we strongly support both the smoking and vaping elements of the Bill. I look forward to talking more.

[Preet Kaur Gill (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab/Co-op)]

Q36 Effective enforcement will be key to the success of part 1 of the Bill, yet some local authorities tell me that they do not have even a single full-time trading standards officer. The illicit market in vapes is substantial—in Birmingham, 17,000 illicit vapes were removed. Do you think that local authorities have the resource needed to enforce the new measures on age for the sale of tobacco, and the new regulations on vapes?

Cllr Fothergill: Our view is that enforcement is key to the success of the legislation, and enforcement has to be through trading standards. Over the past few years, trading standards has had a number of reductions in its budget and cuts, as well as a restriction on the number of people being trained to come through in this area. We believe that we need clarity from the Government as to what the responsibilities for trading standards will be, and we need clarity about the funding that will be allocated. We also want to see an apprenticeship fund set aside for the training of new trading standards officers to come through. We need a longer-term view of trading standards. It is worth noting that trading standards is responsible for enforcing more than 300 pieces of legislation, so this is just another one, but it will add strain unless we get those clear responsibilities, clearer funding and apprenticeship levy put aside for the future.

Greg Fell: I agree with all those points. There has definitely been a reduction in funding for trading standards over the years. It still exists—many local authorities spend quite heavily on trading standards—and it makes a difference. Enforcement against illegal vapes and tobacco is a clear example. Our trading standards team in Sheffield regularly confiscate very large quantities of illegal tobacco, which we know are linked to organised crime. Trading standards still exists and it does make a difference, but to make the Bill—hopefully Act—as successful as possible, we will need to invest sustainably in trading standards and other enforcement.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Q In what circumstances do you envision that local enforcement would not be enough and the Secretary of State would need to use the powers to intervene granted to her by the Bill? That is in clause 64.

Cllr Fothergill: We fully support the local penalty notice being issued by the councils. We believe that that is the right way to go and that it will not clog the courts, but there is always the option to refer to the magistrates court if required. Our big concern is the size of the fine, which we believe needs to be reviewed: £100 or, if paid within 14 days, £50 is hardly a penalty. We argue that we need to have greater opportunity to fine those in contravention of the law. Then, we believe, there would be less and less need for the Secretary of State to be involved. The reason he or she would need to be involved is if we cannot contain it—because we cannot issue enough penalty notices to contain it locally.

Greg Fell: A similar issue would be multi-local authority enforcement scenarios. We know that organised crime networks are not linked to an individual area, so it stands to reason that there will be a need for enforcement that cuts across many authority areas, hence there is a need for networked trading standards. That might also include, possibly, the borders—stopping the imports of illegal vapes and tobacco.

Additionally, as Councillor Fothergill said, we are concerned about the size of the fine. Certainly I hear through DPH parochially, who talk to their trading standards and licensing teams, that when there is a much larger fine that may or may not be linked to the removal of an alcohol licence, that will make a retailer really sit up and think.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Dame Andrea Leadsom)]

Q I appreciate you being here. Can you give me an idea of the LGA’s view of a licensing regime? That is not proposed in the Bill, but some people say that licensing would be a better alternative than the measures we are proposing here.

Cllr Fothergill: Certainly. Although we fully support the Bill, we think there could be one or two changes, which I have already referred to—we would like to see amendments—and there is the option of a licensing scheme, which we would support. If it was done on a similar basis to liquor licensing, we would be able to enforce that, because it would be backed by legislation. Of course, we would need to make sure that trading standards were fully funded for that. We would support that, if it was something that the Government brought forward.

Greg Fell: I cannot speak for the LGA’s position; ADPH does not have a formal view on licensing. I would broadly support it, but there is a danger that putting that into the mix delays getting the Bill through Parliament and turned into an Act, and getting the Bill through Parliament is arguably the most important thing.

I would broadly support that, but I come back to the complexity. Vapes are sold in hairdressers and beauty parlours and so on, so we would need to think it through. Arguably, if we are going to get into a licensing scheme, that should be for tobacco and nicotine-containing products, not just vapes; I would personally go to tobacco as well. Critically, the resourcing to make it work properly would need some very careful thought and consideration. All of that would need to be in the mix, but broadly I would support it, with those caveats.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Q You have already said that you do not think the penalties are high enough, but do you think that the enforcement rules as they are, with the proposals to change the packaging, move the location of vapes and so on, will make it easier or harder to enforce? Do you think that enforcement officers will have sufficient time to train and gear up to meet the challenge of the legislation?

Cllr Fothergill: Specifically on vaping, we support the move to plain packaging, moving them away from the counter and restricting flavours—we support all those things. I have to say that we recognise the role of vaping in helping people to give up smoking, but where children and younger people are involved, we want to move the vapes away and make them less accessible. Trading standards will enforce that, as long as there are clear definitions of what can be sold, where it can be sold and who it can be sold to. A lot of the work that they do is evidence-led, so they will work on people who are giving them tip-offs or where they are seeing that there is a trend in an area where those products are being sold. As long as we are resourced and we recognise that a lot of that evidence-led work is required, it is entirely achievable.

Greg Fell: I have a fairly similar view. Largely, trading standards do this work now. The easier and simpler we can make it, and the more we make sure that it is resourced appropriately, the better, but they largely do this job now pretty well.

[Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op)]

Q My question is for Greg Fell. The clarity and simplicity of knowing where you can smoke has meant that the universal principle of that bar has largely been applied, but it has not applied to vaping to date. Given that vapes contain not just nicotine but cannabis, Spice and other illicit substances, should the same restrictions be applied to vaping?

Greg Fell: Hopefully only illegal vapes contain cannabis or Spice, and not legally produced ones—I sincerely hope that is the case. I have mixed views on vaping in public. I think that Prof McNeill will talk later this afternoon. It is worth reading her evidence review for the Office for Health Improvement and Disparities, which has a whole chapter on the passive inhalation of vapes. The ADPH does not have an official position on the passive inhalation of vapes, but my personal view is that in open spaces I am not too worried about it. In enclosed spaces, I might be, particularly for people who have pre-existing respiratory conditions, but I do not think that the evidence supports it being as big an issue as people think. However, that is definitely a question for Prof McNeill, who is the expert on such matters.

[Steve Tuckwell (Uxbridge and South Ruislip) (Con)]

Q The LGA has previously called for strict enforcement measures for those selling tobacco to those under-age. Do you think the Bill goes far enough in achieving that?

Cllr Fothergill: I have already said that we believe the amount of the fine needs to be reviewed. We believe it is right to do it by a local penalty notice, which is issued locally and can be enforced. We do not believe that £100, reduced to £50 if it is paid within 14 days, is sufficient. It will not have the effect that it needs to have and it should be reviewed.

We are also keen, as part of the Bill, for a review of whether we should be brought into line with Scotland on age verification. Scotland has very clear guidelines that legally, people have to produce identification that they are of an age to buy, and we think this is an opportunity for us to bring that in as well. There are two things where we would like to see enforcement strengthened: mandatory age verification and an increase to local penalty notices.

[Nickie Aiken (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)]

Q I have a question for Mr Fell. Obviously the Bill will cover shisha, so I would welcome your views on shisha smoking and whether there is more we can do within the Bill or in general to tighten up shisha smoking.

Greg Fell: I would say that we need a licensing scheme for shisha smoking, and probably more education about the fact that it is a potent way to consume large amounts of tobacco really quickly and is quite damaging for people’s lungs. I am not sure what more could be achieved in the Bill, but I would like to see a licensing scheme for shisha bars. We enforce the law to its limits, but there are some limits to it.

[Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)]

Q I thank you for covering the issue of age verification; I think it is important to have a similar scheme across the UK. The other issue relating to licensing is that there are potentially two ways of licensing. One is to add to the existing alcohol licensing regime, and the other is to have a separate regime for vaping and tobacco. Which would you prefer to operate if we were to introduce a licensing scheme?

Cllr Fothergill: It is not a topic that we have a policy position on, but my personal view is that it would need to be a separate scheme, because it would have separate enforcement and separate legalities within it. It needs to be very clear for trading standards what they are enforcing against, whereas alcohol is quite different. We should not mix the two just because they both need licensing. I think that they need to be separate.

[Bob Blackman]

Q What is your view on the limitation of the number of premises that would be allowed to sell tobacco or vaping products?

Cllr Fothergill: I could not answer that one, I am afraid, but I would be happy to come back to you with a view on that.

Greg Fell: I have the same view. It is not my area of expertise so I would rather think about that one carefully.

[Mary Kelly Foy (City of Durham) (Lab)]

Q This is a question for Greg. It would be useful for the Committee and for people watching to hear your view on the impact of smoking and tobacco on public health.

Greg Fell: It is the single biggest cause of death. There is no real question about that. It may not be in many years’ time when smoking prevalence has come down, but right here, right now, it is. No other product is available that kills more than half its users when used according to the manufacturer’s instructions. Death is often preceded by a long illness—sometimes a short illness, but often a long one—often in folk of working age. Most people who die from smoking-related illnesses die too early.

Sheffield-wise—I know my numbers locally—it is a bit north of 700 deaths a year out of 5,000 or so, so not insignificant. To give you a reference, covid killed 1,500 people over the period of the pandemic. Smoking kills 700 people every year, year on year, and that is before we get into the illnesses. Aggregated across the country, that is 80,000-odd people—a Wembley stadium-sized group of people, a non-trivial number. It is also very inequitable and led by addiction. People spend enormous amounts of money on smoking, so stopping smoking would free up that money to be spent in other ways. Smoking remains the No. 1 cause of death and it is very inequitable—almost certainly causing the largest gap in healthy life expectancy and life expectancy inequality.

[Mary Kelly Foy]

David, do you want to add anything?

Cllr Fothergill: I think Greg summed that up perfectly.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Q Why do you support the complete ban as opposed to raising the age from 18 to 21, as many people often say? I know the Khan review has talked about not getting to a smoke-free future if we did that, but is there anything you would like to say about that?

Greg Fell: Years and years ago, the narrative was about raising the age of sale to 21, but I think the evidence has shifted. I hear from a number of stakeholders and sources that the tobacco industry is targeting its public relations at slightly older young people—the 18 to 25 age group. If you were to stop at 21, the tobacco industry would just change its marketing and you would therefore get a new target group recruited into smoking. Nobody thinks that that is a good idea, so the evidence is shifting.

The ban sets a really important norm. We can all remember walking out of a pub smelling of cigarettes. We cannot imagine that now, so continually shifting the norm changes population behaviour just by norm shifting, which is important and often underplayed. I would support the lifting lid—I think that is the right phrase.

Cllr Fothergill: I think Greg is absolutely right. At the LGA, we support the progressive lifting of the age as opposed to raising it to 21. We think that is the right way to go. It will then move through the population over a number of years rather than just being static at a single point.

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

Q We heard in an evidence session earlier about the challenges in schools, with children vaping in increasing numbers. There is an impact on their education because of their becoming addicted, and that causes challenges in their interactions with the learning process. Do you think that the measures in the Bill are sufficient to deal with that growing problem? Do you have a view on whether we have a handle on the quantum of that problem, and are the measures on advertising sufficient to try to remedy that?

Greg Fell: Yes, in part, in terms of the measures in the Bill. I would treat vapes like I would treat cigarettes in terms of colours and marketing, with plain packs out of sight behind the counter and strongly enforced. I would take care, though: we use and want to continue to use vapes as a route out of smoking cigarettes, so getting the balance right remains important, but I would be quite aggressive about the regulation and the deterrent.

Education in schools by itself will not be sufficient. It might or might not be effective, but it will not be sufficient. Action on Smoking and Health has co-produced with a number of local authorities a range of resource packs for parents, teachers and others, which are fairly widely used, but they are not sufficient by themselves to stop the rise in young people vaping, so we need strong regulation with the enforcement of that to boot.

Cllr Fothergill: It is not part of this Bill, but it is part of LGA policy that we would like to see a ban on disposable vapes. There are 5 million sold every week, with the vast majority sold to younger people. The vast majority are thrown away. Those that are thrown away responsibly finish up in one of our recycling lorries where the lithium batteries cause major problems with fires. It is not part of this legislation, but we think that that needs to be tackled separately; I think it will be.

Greg Fell: One point that I just remembered on the resource pack that has been widely circulated to headteachers and schools: a line was taken in that to tell the truth—not to over-egg the pudding but to tell the truth and say what we do and do not know, because in my experience scaring kids usually switches them on to something rather than turning them off something. In the pack, we have also told the truth about the methods and tactics that the tobacco industry has used to get kids hooked on vapes, and that as a rule makes kids pretty angry. It certainly makes parents pretty angry when they realise what has happened.

[Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)]

Q If I may, Mr Fell, I will bring you back to the issue of passive vaping. You talked about there not being so much evidence on the harms of passive vaping compared with passive smoking, which is correct. Of course, smoking has been around much longer for the effects to be understood. However, there are papers, published in reliable journals such as The BMJ, saying that those people—in particular, young adults who do not smoke or vape—who are exposed to passive vaping do get an increase in bronchial symptoms.

Greg Fell: Agreed.

[Dr Johnson]

Q There are effects. One reason why a former Government brought in the ban on smoking in enclosed public spaces was so that people would not be forced to experience such a risk, either at work or socially, which was one that they did not want to take. Would you, as a director of public health, support a ban in enclosed spaces for vaping, too?

Greg Fell: Possibly. I would need to go back to the science and have a really careful look at it. There is the danger of unintended consequences and turning people away from vaping as a route out of smoking. Outdoors it is not a thing; indoors—for me, it is a carefully balanced thing and I would want to go back to read the science. It is a while since I have read it, to be fair.

[Dr Johnson]

Q If someone cannot smoke in a pub, why would not being able to vape in a pub make them smoke?

Greg Fell: I am thinking of my logic now, and would agree. What I would not want is for somebody to not switch from smoking tobacco to vaping because they fear they would not be able to vape in a pub. That would be the unintended consequence I would try to avoid.

[The Chair]

David, do you want to add anything?

Cllr Fothergill: I have nothing to add.

[Rachael Maskell]

Q Again, the question is to Greg Fell. We know that there is a risk around a transition between vaping and smoking. I understand that a paper will soon be published on that in Sweden. A York schools survey has shown that 42% of children think that vaping is as dangerous as smoking and that 17% think that vaping is more harmful than smoking. How are we going to avoid future risk around young people taking up smoking, even if that is in later life? They are young people, obviously, today, but I am talking about young people outside the age group for the year-on-year increase.

Greg Fell: I do not know that there is a lot of evidence on the gateway effect of switching from vaping to smoking. Again, there are proper experts, some of whom are sitting behind me. It might be something that you want to test them on later, but I do not know that there is lots of evidence of that. Nobody thinks it would be a good thing to do. I think it is fair to say that there is widespread misunderstanding, and occasionally misinformation, about the dangers of vaping in much of the popular press. When we read a study about immensely high doses of vape in the lungs of mice, that leads to awfully lurid headlines, and that causes people to have misunderstandings and misinformation about the relative risks and benefits of vaping compared with smoking. Sadly, I cannot stop that, but it is a problem and I do not think there is an easy solution, because the media like to publish good headlines. I get that; I understand it, but it often skews us away from what the science is actually telling us.

[Bob Blackman]

Q One issue that was raised on Second Reading but which is not in the Bill at the moment is the practice, particularly by people originating from the Indian subcontinent, of chewing tobacco, particularly paan, and the fact that it can be bought in any place. There are no regulations on it; there is no control over what the product is or what the contents of the product are. What is the view on bringing some regulation in? It is questionable whether it can be within the scope of this Bill, but clearly that causes throat and mouth cancer in large numbers of people.

Greg Fell: I do not have a view, Bob.

[Bob Blackman]

You do not? I am surprised.

Greg Fell: I do not think it is a terribly sensible thing to do. I do not think it would be possible to get it into this Bill. How one would regulate it I do not know. I shall give some consideration to that and get back to the Committee.

[Bob Blackman]

That would be helpful.

Cllr Fothergill: Again, from our perspective, it is not an area that we have looked at in terms of policy. We do have a policy on shisha, but we have not gone as far as the product you have just mentioned. But we will, I am sure.

[Bob Blackman]

I think we should have one.

Cllr Fothergill: I agree.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Q You made a very good case for the age of sale rising each year, but as the LGA, do you think that will be tricky for enforcement purposes? An argument is often made that if you were 40 and I was 41, we would go into a store and I would have to buy your cigarettes for you. What would you say to that as an argument for continuing with the smoke-free generation legislation?

Cllr Fothergill: We have to be very careful that we do not spook ourselves out of doing something that is absolutely right. If people get to the age of 40 and have to show that they are 40 to be able to buy cigarettes, that is what they should do. I am sorry to say that I am 67. I have to show a bus pass every time I get on a bus to show that I am old enough to travel for free.

[The Chair]

You don’t look it.

Cllr Fothergill: Thank you very much—I’ll take that.

At every stage in life, you are asked for verification, and this is just another time. It should not stop us from doing the right thing and moving the age up so that we eventually achieve a smoke-free population.

Greg Fell: It is a long time since I have been asked my age. It may throw up some tricky moments, but as Councillor Fothergill said, let’s not stop ourselves doing the right thing here. I think most people agree that it is broadly the right thing. The Bill itself is massively important for norm-setting. Even if the norm-setting achieves half of the goal, thousands of lives will still be saved.

[The Chair]

Greg, before I bring Andrea in again, you do not look 67 either. I want to get that on the record.

Greg Fell: Not a day over 25, Chair.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Q I beg people to ask me my age when I am buying a drink, and they just will not.

The additional things—heated tobacco, shisha and so on—that come under this legislation include cigarette papers. We all know that they can be used for rolling joints and other purposes, and that cigarette papers contain carcinogens. However, some have quite a strong desire to exclude them—I do not know why. What is the view of the LGA and ADPH on that point?

Cllr Fothergill: We believe that the scope of the Bill as it is currently written is right, and that is what we would support. We would not want to see anything excluded. Every time there is a change to smoking legislation, we hear the argument that it will increase the amount of illicit trade coming into the country. That is not a reason not to do it. It is our responsibility as trading standards to enforce, and although people always use that argument, we have to do the right thing and enforce by properly funding trading standards.

Greg Fell: If I had £1 for every time I have heard the illicit trade argument, neither of us would be here. The heat-not-burn—the clue is in the title—is a tobacco product, and I would treat it like a tobacco product. It may be safer than burned tobacco—we do not know. I would like to see some independent research. However, I would not delay the Bill until I see independent research. I would personally argue to not allow exclusions. It may seem much harder to enforce, but there will already be some tricky points in enforcement; we already know that we need to resource that properly. I would keep the simplicity and not allow exclusions.

[The Chair]

We have two minutes left. Is anyone burning to ask the last question? We have had very clear evidence and it has been an excellent session, but is anyone sitting on a question they have not yet asked?

[Angela Richardson (Guildford) (Con)]

Q Yes. Greg, I am picking up from the witnesses and evidence sessions we have had so far that there is almost an ideological feeling about vapes as a smoking cessation tool. You talked about the unintended consequences of people going back to smoking or not giving it up if we were to take a tougher line on vaping or the effects of vaping on others. I am slightly worried from a public health point of view: what if we discover that vaping is dreadful and we have taken the really strong stance of maybe not looking into it enough and giving it the urgency it needs?

Greg Fell: Again, without wanting to take the fifth amendment, that is a question for some of the experts behind me, who will give you a full view based on the science. We are 20 years into vaping now—we would probably have started to see significant amounts of vaping-related harm. Cases can always be found of somebody who has terrible lung damage as a result of vaping, but they are usually the exception rather than the rule. The comparator is always tobacco smoke: is it safer than tobacco smoke on the basis of all the science that we know, 20-odd years in? Yes, unequivocally. Is it safer than fresh air? No—hence we do not recommend that people who do not smoke start vaping. As the chief medical officer has said repeatedly, the tobacco industry marketing vapes to kids is completely unacceptable. I am happy—hand on heart, I can say that ADPH pretty much follows the line that it is a route out of tobacco smoking, as we know that smoking kills half of its customers or more. Should the science change in another 10 years, then we would change our view, but on the basis of the evidence we have now, I am happy that we have got the right position.

[The Chair]

Thank you very much, David and Greg, for an excellent session with some very clear evidence.

Examination of Witness

Ailsa Rutter gave evidence.

14:30

[The Chair]

We now move on to our next witness, Ailsa Rutter, who is the director of Fresh and Balance North East. I am looking forward to find out what that is. We have 20 minutes for this session. Ailsa, could you kindly introduce yourself for the record? By all means, add some more if you wish to, but the Committee will have plenty of questions for you.

Ailsa Rutter: Thank you so much. I am absolutely privileged to be here with you this afternoon, speaking on behalf of the north-east and the many partners in the region who will give you their overwhelming support for this absolutely crucial, complete once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to have the single biggest impact in addressing the biggest cause of cancer. For those of you who might not know what Fresh and Balance is, we are a regional tobacco and alcohol programme based in the north-east of England. We have been going for 20 years, we are funded by our local authorities and our NHS trusts, and we are doing a lot of work to drive down the harms on both tobacco and alcohol.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Q My first question to you is, what is the impact of tobacco smoking on public health? Secondly, do you think the Bill’s measures to prevent vaping products from being sold to children will be successful? That is essentially clauses 61 and 62.

Ailsa Rutter: Tobacco is devastating. It is devastating to every individual who dies way too young, and to the family who lose their loved one. In my region alone, just since the turn of the millennium, 120,000 of our loved ones have died from smoking. It is not an adult choice, but a childhood addiction. The vast majority of those smokers reach a point where they deeply regret having got hooked in childhood, not thinking that first puff on a cigarette would be so addictive. It is really important that we remember the 6.4 million remaining smokers in the UK and the fact that 350 18 to 24-year-olds will get hooked on lethal tobacco smoking today.

I would like the Committee to imagine that cigarettes did not exist. It is 2024, and here we are discussing a product that is designed to hook, kill, maim, and be completely addictive. This discussion today needs to be about the future world we want to strive for. We can talk a lot about how we will enforce it, which is very important, but for me this is about imagining that in 20 years’ time we have created an entire new generation protected from this uniquely lethal product. That is why in the north-east, all 12 local authorities, all 10 NHS trusts, our integrated care board—the biggest in the country—and our Association of Directors of Public Health have given whole-hearted, unanimous support to the “stopping the start” proposal on the age of sale of tobacco.

We absolutely recognise that smoking is much more harmful than vaping, but vaping is not risk-free. Vaping is playing a pivotal role in our region—with our higher levels of deprivation and addiction—to get people off lethal smoking, but that is not to say that we do not absolutely agree that much more needs to be done to reduce the appeal of vaping to young people. We wholeheartedly believe that we must address the inappropriate packaging that is too youth-friendly. Some of the in-store promotions are completely inappropriate, where children are really noticing it. We must ensure that we recognise that children are growing up within a family context; children do not live in isolation. There is also the importance in our region of sending clear, evidenced-based messaging. We can also see the positive impact on children’s health if we can get the parents and carers off lethal tobacco smoking and if we can reduce second-hand smoke harm. Really important as well is more money in people’s pockets, because cigarette smoking has such a negative effect on your income.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Q Thank you so much for being here and for all you do in the north-east. It is fantastic.

As you will know, rates of smoking during pregnancy in the north-east are some of the highest in the country. Do you think this legislation will help to reduce those very high numbers? The rate is somewhere in the region of 14% in the north-east.

Ailsa Rutter: We have made really good progress in the north-east in reducing maternal smoking; that has come through very good collaboration between our local maternity services and our local authorities, as well as the fantastic leadership from key people in the local maternity and neonatal system, the LMNS, and the direction from directors of public health.

As with anything, there is not one magic solution; it is about taking comprehensive measures. The tobacco age of sale increase will undoubtedly have a really positive impact on reducing maternal smoking. It needs to be coupled with important things that we must continue to do as well, so we also welcome the increased investment for stop-smoking services.

We hugely welcome—thank you—the reinvestment in the evidence-based health harms campaigns. We are thrilled that nationally you are using our fantastic “smoking survivors” TV advert featuring Sue Mountain. The role of financial incentives is also really important; we know that they have a very strong evidence base. This will have a positive impact on maternal smoking.

[Nickie Aiken]

Q If there was one thing you could add to this Bill, what would it be?

Ailsa Rutter: Gosh! There are already some fantastic elements in the Bill. The key thing for me is to make sure that we can get the Bill through—particularly the focus on tobacco. It is really good to think that there is going to be subsequent consultation on the important elements around vaping. Factoring in what colleagues said previously, we need a simple mandatory age verification scheme. That is already in place in Scotland, and I would certainly welcome its introduction in England.

[Trudy Harrison (Copeland) (Con)]

Q Thank you, Ailsa, for all the work that you do up north in the north-east. I represent the north-west, Cumbria, which also has higher than national average rates of mothers saying that they are smoking at the point of birth—about 12.3%. I am told by our authority in Cumbria that about 3,500 hospital admissions, 74,000 GP appointments and 80,000 sick days are caused by smoking-related illnesses. But why not just do more of what you are doing in the north-east? Do you really need this Bill to tackle the problem?

Ailsa Rutter: I think we are doing some really good work in the north-east but I absolutely think that this Bill is required. I go back to the uniquely lethal nature of tobacco smoking; that is the one key argument that we need to think about. This is guaranteed to kill. For me, this is about a societal shift.

I am really pleased with the huge shift in the north-east on the social norms of smoking. We talk to people who smoke every single day, and you have their backing because they desperately do not want their own children to fall into the same trap. As I mentioned before, this is about aspiring into the future. We are all conscious of the pressure and strain on our NHS. Think about the impact—one in four beds in the north-east and elsewhere with somebody suffering from a smoking-related condition. I think our NHS colleagues in particular really welcome this.

There is another important aspect when it comes to the economic costs. We all get the healthcare costs and we also really understand the strain on social care, but actually it is business that bears the brunt of this. That can surprise people. It is about the lost productivity and people having to retire early and dying early. I would like to think about who these people are. I have mentioned the pivotal role of Sue Mountain and the showing of her TV advert, but so many other people have come forward who sadly were diagnosed in their late 40s—women in the north-east who are desperate to tell their stories. Cathy Hunt, diagnosed with lung cancer at 49; Claire Oldfield, diagnosed with lung cancer at 49. Their real appeal to you today is to think about taking this seismic leap forward and about the leadership the UK can show globally by recognising that smoking had a beginning and a middle, and it is down to us to say that it can have an end.

[Mary Kelly Foy]

Q Thanks to Ailsa for everything that Fresh does in the north-east and for the wonderful results we have seen in the north-east, which is a very deprived area in places. I want to follow up on the question on evidence in vaping. Although there are still a few grey areas and unknowns about vapes, we know that vaping is much less harmful than tobacco. Crucially, it is a really important tool for those people who do smoke. What evidence does Fresh use to back up this argument? Do you feel there is a worry that if we focus too much in the Bill on youth vaping, we will leave behind those dependent, addicted and, very often, deprived smokers?

Ailsa Rutter: I think we are really fortunate in the UK. The UK has shown great leadership by commissioning evidence-based reviews that are completely independent of Government; we have had eight of those now since 2014. That has been incredibly important. Fresh is not complacent. We have been monitoring the evidence around the rise in vaping and how this is positioned in terms of public health for the last 20 years—since we were set up. I would strongly recommend that many of the really useful questions we have had today could be answered by looking at those systematic reviews from the Office for Health Improvement and Disparities. In particular, when people say, “We don’t know what’s in vaping,” there is a significant chapter on the constituent chemicals and so on in vaping, and the magnitude of potential harm.

I have forgotten the second bit of your question, Mary.

[Mary Kelly Foy]

It was about the use of vapes by heavily dependent smokers.

Ailsa Rutter: Yes. In the north-east, vapes have been a “game changer” for some of our heavily addicted smokers. I have permission to share with you the fantastic role that vapes have played in our biggest mental health trust, Cumbria, Northumberland, Tyne and Wear. We are talking about people who have been smoking 40 or 50 cigarettes a day, often for decades, who have really struggled to imagine that they could ever get off lethal smoking. Being able to give them something that still gives them their nicotine, but in a much purer, safer and cleaner form, has been a game changer.

Vapes are being used successfully in our drug and alcohol treatment services—on the point about alcohol, the two often go hand in hand. If we are really intent on ending smoking, we must do more on alcohol. Wearing my Balance hat—Balance is the alcohol bit—it is really important that we do not think of risk-taking behaviour in youth as just vaping. Last week, the World Health Organisation published a report that shows that across 44 countries, the UK sadly has the highest use of alcohol among 11-year-olds. I hope nobody thinks that the amount of alcohol promotion, advertising, marketing and so on is okay. I think it is quite important that we look at risk-taking behaviours in the round.

[Bob Blackman]

Q In answer to my colleague, Nickie Aiken, you raised the primary issue of age verification. We get an opportunity to change the law on tobacco and vaping only once every 10 years or so, so it is quite important that we get as much in as we can. What other improvements would you like to make to the Bill to strengthen the argument you are putting, to get people to quit smoking or not even start in the first place?

Ailsa Rutter: That is a really good point. I think it goes back to not wanting to delay the progress of the Bill. It is not necessarily for legislation, but it is important that we have a very clear communications strategy. Reflecting on previous legislation, much of the high levels of compliance we have seen in this country have come from very proactive communications in advance. We need to be really careful that the narrative does not get overly confused. It worries me enormously that too many people are staying on smoking because they are scared of even trying to switch over to a significantly less harmful product. I worry enormously about scaring people. It is absolutely right that we have evidence-based messaging to children and young people, but they are messengers who go back to their parents, and we know that it is very important that they are sending clear messages back. So, I will defer on your question about additional amendment—sorry.

[Bob Blackman]

Q May I prompt you? We have heard from previous witnesses about licensing. The Minister has talked about warning messages in packs and individual cigarette papers. Would you support those measures?

Ailsa Rutter: I absolutely would. Fresh has been advocating a tobacco licensing scheme for many years. I do not know whether it is in the parameters of the Bill, but it is wrong that anybody can set up their car boot and sell a lethal consumer product. I would also strongly recommend that previous consultations on things such as pack inserts are looked at again: there is a strong rationale for that. Canada is leading the way with a clear message on the cigarette stick itself. Those are called dissuasive cigarettes. There are certainly other things within that realm. I would also be really willing in the future to discuss the role of a “polluter pays” levy; that is something worth considering.

[The Chair]

Thank you. There are four minutes left and three people have already caught my eye, so short questions and short answers please, colleagues.

[Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab)]

Q It is always great to see you and your enthusiasm shows through. We are very grateful for what you do in the north-east with Fresh and Balance. Does there need to be some kind of balance—no pun intended—between education and enforcement in order to make this a successful campaign, and to make the Bill as successful as we all want it to be?

Ailsa Rutter: We have a really good track record over the last two decades of collaboration and cross-party working, with fantastic support from civil society, the NHS and local authorities. The previous legislation has gone through really well, overall, because we have worked together to build up public awareness and support. It is really important that we have adequate resourcing for our important professional groups, such as trading standards.

For me, it is about the communication, the vision and the narrative that we can set. Undoubtedly, if we can get this through, it will not just stop a whole new generation starting; we also know that it will trigger many people to think, “You know what? I am going to give it another go. I am going to try to quit.” We know that it can take people many attempts to quit for good. That is why it is really good that this is being backed up by additional investment in the important stop-smoking support systems and in our NHS trusts.

[Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Con)]

Q We heard this morning that some individuals and families had misinformation about vaping. We were given the example that, where the flavour is grapefruit or another fruity flavour, people might think that it is actually beneficial for children to be using vapes. Should we tackle those types of flavours and do more in terms of education, to make sure that families are aware that just because something has a fruity flavour, that does not necessarily mean that it is good for their health?

Ailsa Rutter: I note the aspects of the Bill that deal with flavours. We absolutely think that more should be done on the descriptors. We wholeheartedly agree that some of the description is completely inappropriate. However, flavours play a really important role. For example, in our mental health trust, it is the fruit flavours that have got addicted smokers to stop. I genuinely have not heard that come up in the north-east—parents thinking that it is somehow healthy for a young person if it has a fruit flavour. What is wrong, though, is when it is in a packet called “Unicorn bubbly shake” or whatever, with a cartoon image on it. Those are things that we should look at addressing.

On vaping by young people in the north east, I want to make the point that we need to be careful about the data. Sometimes people say that all young people are vaping, but the evidence does not stack up. All of our local authorities do health behaviour questionnaires and, across the board, around 10% occasionally vape. I am not at all saying that we should be happy with that, but the risk of a public narrative that all young people are vaping is that we inadvertently promote it as a norm. Schools North East—

[The Chair]

Order. I am sorry, but we have hit 2.50 pm. Caroline, I am sorry to you, too. We are not allowed to go over the time limit. Ailsa, thank you so much for your evidence; it has been absolutely first-class. We wish you well with all the important work.

Examination of Witness

Adrian Simpson gave evidence.

14:50

[The Chair]

We now turn to our next witness, Adrian Simpson, a policy adviser at the British Retail Consortium. Colleagues, we have until 3.10 pm for this session, which is 20 minutes—it flies by when the witnesses are so good. Caroline, you can have the first question after Preet if that would help you. Witness, would you please introduce yourself and say an additional sentence, and then we will throw lots of questions at you?

Adrian Simpson: Good afternoon. My name is Adrian Simpson. I am from the British Retail Consortium. We are the trade association for large retailers throughout the UK.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Q Hello Adrian. I know that ASH has done some surveys that show that the majority of small retailers are in support of age-of-sale legislation, and I know that the Association of Convenience Stores is equally supportive. Would you say that the retailers are broadly supportive of this Bill?

Adrian Simpson: Yes, the large retail sector, which we represent, is broadly in favour of the Bill. We recognise that these products do require regulation. Putting forward this Bill at this time certainly feels like the right thing to do. Our members take their responsibilities around safe, responsible retailing very seriously indeed, but we feel that, for all this to be successful, there needs to be strong and robust enforcement behind it all.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Q As you know, as well as introducing the £100 fixed penalty notice, the Bill grants new powers to trading standards to make restricted premises orders and restricted sale orders. Do you think that those new powers get the balance right between providing an effective deterrent and proportionality, and do you think that, at £100, the spot fines are set at the right level?

Adrian Simpson: I am not sure I can comment on whether the amount is right, but one thing we would like to caution on around fines is the need to make sure that businesses are adequately notified of those fines. Some of the big retailers might not always be aware that a fine has been issued at the store level. For this to be effective, we think that trading standards officers will need to work with, for example, head offices as well. Something to be aware of is that some of these fines will have substantial personal effects on the shop workers who are given them. We need to think about how that is communicated to the shop workers themselves, but also to the head offices of these large retailers.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Q Is there anything you want to say on the age-of-sale verification process?

Adrian Simpson: In the large retail sector, we have worked on things such as Challenge 25 for many years, so we are used to challenging consumers buying products. One thing that we would like to make clear is that this can be a very controversial issue. We know that challenging consumers for proof of age leads to violence and aggression against shop workers. We think it would be beneficial if a long period were given for these regulations to come into effect, to give retailers the chance to educate their staff on these issues and to educate consumers.

[Dr Johnson]

Q I want to ask you about the licensing regime. You have to have a licence to sell alcohol and tobacco, and some have suggested that you should have to have a licence to sell nicotine full stop because it is an addictive substance. That would mean that you would need to have a licence to sell vapes, partly as a way of making them less accessible to children in the places that they may be sold. Would you support that?

Adrian Simpson: It is not an issue that we have discussed at any length in the British Retail Consortium. We are aware, of course, that there are parts of the UK where licensing is required for certain tobacco products. We are well used to the alcohol licensing that has been going on for many years. Unfortunately, I cannot comment on whether the whole sector would be in support of that. We would perhaps need to see how a potential licensing system would operate before we gave our full support to it.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Q Thank you so much for being here. You will be aware that, in putting together legislation, huge effort is made to be balanced and not excessive and to make it doable and achievable, nowhere more so than for those who are trying to enforce it.

May I press you a bit further on the point that Preet made about whether the fines are sufficient? You have said that it is a bit complicated and will require some lead-in time—which is obviously provided, with the 2027 date—to give appropriate training to shop staff. The quantum of the fine was intended to enable on-the-spot fines, rather than having lengthy litigation because the person who incurs the fine does not have the cash and needs to go away, may or may not pay it, may or may not have to be pursued, may or may not have to go to court, and so on. Understanding that there are different views on all sides, is the balance just about right or, if you could have put your own wish list together, are there things that you would have done differently?

Adrian Simpson: We would have liked to see more education provided to retailers who might have broken the rules. A fine can be life-changing for someone who is given one, so we like to see whether there might be a way around that; perhaps the shop worker could be educated first, rather than going straight to a fine, if at all possible. We would like to see that balance of education before strict enforcement, if possible. That would be our wish.

[Steve Tuckwell]

Q Thank you for coming in this afternoon. It is a pleasure to hear your thoughts. What will be the challenges for retailers in enforcing the ban on sales?

Adrian Simpson: The first challenge is education of all the shop staff. Our members are the very large, household-name retailers, and it will take a long time to get that education out to the hundreds of thousands—in some cases—of shop workers throughout the UK. We also think that there will be issues to do with changing our point of sale systems, things like where we are going to store some of these products if we need to, and even things like the size and nature of the tobacco notices. Retail operates in many different ways—we think of the large supermarkets, but there are very small stores as well—so a lot of thought needs to be given to the technical parts of the legislation, which of course we always work with you on.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Q What conversations has the British Retail Consortium had with local authorities? They have a lot of data locally on the amount of illicit vapes or illicit tobacco being sold. They are already enforcing trading standards, so there should already be a level of awareness. What kinds of conversations have you been having with local authorities?

Adrian Simpson: Certainly. Ever since the point at which a potential vape ban and the rolling age restriction on tobacco were announced, we have been working very closely with the Chartered Trading Standards Institute, which represents local authority trading standards officials. Ever since the beginning, we have been in close conversation with them, talking about our concerns on the points I made about education and enforcement. Many of our members are closely linked to trading standards already, through the primary authority scheme. I am pleased to say that many of our BRC members have long-standing primary authority relationships, so they already work very closely with trading standards. Certainly at the BRC, I have been working closely with colleagues in the Chartered Trading Standards Institute.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Q You mentioned that your members are used to working with Challenge 25. Do you see the Bill working in the same way? As the age of the smoke-free generation rises from year to year, will your colleagues in the retail sector manage to look at two different customers and ask the one that they are concerned about to verify their age?

Adrian Simpson: I think you made a wise point earlier, Minister, about the difference between a 40 and a 41-year-old. That is absolutely our concern: how will we do that? We hear a lot of things about artificial intelligence and new technology for age verification, but a lot of it is still down to human interaction—whether a human can tell the difference between 40 and 41, which can be difficult. That is certainly one of our biggest concerns. Again, we are keen to avoid situations where there could be a touchpoint for violence against shop workers.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Q You will have heard Mr Fothergill from the LGA saying that he has to show his bus pass every time he wants free transport. Do you feel that that is where the solution lies?

Adrian Simpson: There certainly needs to be a bit more research into what the best methods are to keep this age restriction going. It is a new challenge in the retail sector. We have never had anything like this before, and the UK is a leader in this area. I think that, at the beginning, it will be about us all working together to try to get the age restriction going and to make sure that it is enforced, because—this is one point that I would like to make—our members are obviously very compliant and want to do the right thing. These household names are very protective of their reputations; they want to be good and to do the right thing for society. However, I certainly think that, with this new system that might come in, there could be some teething problems. We hope not, but that can naturally happen with all new systems.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Q May I just clarify, then, that your members support the uplift in age, year on year? As you will no doubt be aware, there are some who challenge that and say, “Well, it shouldn’t keep escalating,” but the British Retail Consortium does support the idea of the increase, year on year, of the smoke-free generation, as so many of our other expert witnesses have done today. Would that be right? I do not want to put words in your mouth.

Adrian Simpson: It was definitely a point that came up quite a lot when we were debating this with members themselves. I would say that we are cautiously welcoming it, just because it will then bring about a level playing field for all retailers—because we know that these measures are not necessarily directed at our members, who are, as I say, in the legitimate, responsible retail sector. It will bring about a level playing field but, as I say, we might still need to see how it would operate in practice, I suppose, before we give it our wholehearted support.

[Mary Glindon]

Q I was just searching for a quote, which I think I cited in a debate last year, about a survey that had been commissioned about buying vapes. Out of the 28 vapes that were bought, 25 were illicit vapes. I presume that those are from places that are not responsible retailers—they clearly are irresponsible if they sell those. Are there a lot of retailers that do not subscribe to your organisation where this sort of thing could be occurring? If that is the case, how can we encourage them to become responsible retailers and join the consortium? What should be done? Do you try to reach out to retailers that you know are perhaps not the best and that you would like to see engage with your organisation to help to prevent this kind of illicit sale?

Adrian Simpson: Exactly. Our membership is predominantly the household-name retailers—the large retailers; the ones that certainly would not be selling illicit vapes. We have comprehensive supply chains, and our members put a lot of effort into making sure that their supply chains are operating with integrity, so that illicit products cannot enter them. I have not seen that report, but my feeling would be that the sellers mentioned in it are highly unlikely to be members of a reputable trade organisation. They might be ones that would not be looking for the same standards that our members would operate to.

[Dr Cameron]

Q Do any of your members worry that they might get into some bother if they think that someone looks a bit older than they are, and they do not ask them for identification? I am just wondering what sort of training would be beneficial, because you mentioned that you were looking to put in place training prior to this going through.

Adrian Simpson: A lot of the training done by our members has been put together with the help of trading standards’ services, so there is a lot in there about the law, but also about what perhaps is termed the soft skills—how to deal with the aggression, and with violence as well. Of course, this is a high-profile issue, and it is one of the top priorities at the British Retail Consortium as well.

We know that, with new rules, new regulations and new opportunities to challenge consumers, there will always be some resistance from consumers. We will certainly make sure that all our colleagues working in our members’ stores are given all the support they need to deal with any potential aggression or any bother, and our members will comply with whatever the law says. They will not let someone who should not buy a product buy it just because they are worried, or something like that. They will follow whatever the in-store procedures are and the training from the work with trading standards.

[Dr Cameron]

Q But it is probably more difficult to tell whether someone is 35, 40 or 45 than whether someone is an older adult, going on a bus, or whether someone is a teenager rather than someone in their mid-20s. I am just wondering how that could work, in a sense, in terms of the training.

Adrian Simpson: I agree—that is difficult. It takes me back to discussions around Challenge 25, which we have mentioned. It started out as Challenge 21, and the age was raised because it was very difficult to tell the difference between a 21-year-old and an 18-year-old. Technology is evolving in this area. There are new things. We know that members are using new forms of technology to help with that. They rely on things like Government-issued ID. There are various ways of challenging someone. It comes down to things like the training and how the consumer is around the till. Are they acting nervous or like they are up to something? It is then down to the retailer to use the training that they have been given to check the ID and use their own in-store procedures, as well to try to operate responsibly.

[Kirsten Oswald]

Q To follow on from that dialogue, it strikes me that a degree of social change will be needed, because it will have to become normal for you to go into a shop and provide whatever kind of ID. It seems to me unlikely that that will be a conversation that will centre on whether you look this age or a year older. Has that led you to any conversations with people who deal with things like bus passes or the voter ID that is required? Is the communication of that to the public—a different angle from the communication to the retail staff—something that you are working on?

Adrian Simpson: Yes, we do work closely with trading standards, who are very good at doing the education side. It is not just about educating our members, but educating the public and bringing about a cultural change where it is almost expected that you will be asked for ID. If you have been in any large retailer recently, you have probably seen the badges they wear that say, “It’s our job to ask for your age”, for example. Certainly, among our member businesses, it very much is the culture to go for the Challenge 25. Although these regulations with the rolling age will have challenges, I am sure our members are well placed to overcome them.

[The Chair]

Adrian, thank you so much for your evidence this afternoon. It has been clear and concise.

Adrian Simpson: Thank you, Sir Gary, and thank you, everyone.

[The Chair]

We will now move on to our next session—I am speaking slowly to allow John and Kate to find their way to their places.

To colleagues and anyone else tuning in, we are likely to have votes in the Chamber from about 3.30 pm or 3.45 pm—we are not quite sure; it is always fluid. That might do two things. It could curtail this session and prevent us from having the later sessions. Colleagues, in this session, in which we will hear extremely important evidence from the Chartered Trading Standards Institute, we might want to be concise for the first 20 minutes in case that dreadful bell goes and we all have to scarper. We will be voting four or five times and therefore not coming back. Let us get what we can from our two excellent witnesses.

Examination of Witnesses

John Herriman and Kate Pike gave evidence.

15:08

[The Chair]

John Herriman and Kate Pike, will you introduce yourselves, please?

John Herriman: I am John Herriman, chief executive at the Chartered Trading Standards Institute. We welcome the Bill, as I hope has been clear from the stuff that we provided before. It provides important clarity for businesses and enforcement agencies, as well as the public. We have also welcomed the early engagement in the development of the Bill.

Kate Pike: I am Kate Pike, lead officer for tobacco and vaping at the Chartered Trading Standards Institute. I have been involved for many years on the regulatory side. I was a member of the Department of Health tobacco expert group for many years, and I am now a member of the vaping expert panel as well, so hopefully I can answer your questions—fingers crossed.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Q Can you talk a little bit about your work on illicit vapes and tobacco, and talk us through how trading standards works and how you share information between the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency, Border Force and His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs? One thing that I am concerned about in Birmingham, for example, is the fact that 17,000 illicit vapes were removed by trading standards. The notification process sits with MHRA. Is there triangulation in the feeding back of that information, so that products can be removed? Can you say something about that?

Kate Pike: I will separate out illicit tobacco and illegal vapes, if that is okay. Illicit tobacco is the day job, which we have been doing for years. You are probably aware that HMRC came up with the first strategy on tackling illicit tobacco around the turn of the century, and since that time the amounts of illegal tobacco consumed in this country have come down hugely. Seventeen billion illegal cigarettes were consumed in 2000 and we are now down at 2.5 billion to 3 billion— I always say that as though it is a small number, but I know it is still huge. We have the latest strategy from HMRC to tackle that. Trading standards undertakes a really important role locally on illicit tobacco—your colleagues in Birmingham will be doing that work locally—but we work closely with HMRC and Border Force overseas, at the borders and inland, so we are on that.

With vapes, however, it is a different story. Obviously, the illegal vape market is much newer. Trading standards is responsible at ports and borders, and inland. The rise of illegal vapes probably took us by surprise, but we are now getting all our ducks in a row and starting to seize the products that are illegal. We work incredibly closely with our colleagues at HMRC. The notification system is helpful—it could be better, so we welcome the Bill clarifying that it can be extended and strengthened. We are getting on to the case now. There is a huge illegal market for vapes at the moment, but we can learn from what we have done on illegal tobacco and apply it to vapes, to ensure that we tackle those as well.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Q The Bill will ban the sale, rather than the import, of illicit vape products. Is that the right approach?

Kate Pike: The Bill gives enabling regulations to ensure that vape products can be reduced in attractiveness to children. There will be restrictions on the flavours, on the packaging and on the display to reduce the attractiveness of vapes to children. That is really important, because no problem has ever been solved by enforcement alone, whatever industry says. The approach has to be holistic: demand reduction as well as supply disruption. No problem has ever been solved like that, so the enabling powers, on sale and supply, will be brilliant.

Other bits of legislation are going through, such as the statutory instrument to ban single-use disposables. Potentially, that is an opportunity to look at an import ban on such products. Obviously, we will never get an import ban on something that we make here and sell overseas, because that is just not allowed under international trade law, but we talk all the time about how the ports and borders are such a pinch point.

[The Chair]

John, did you want to say anything?

John Herriman: I want to pick up on Kate’s point about the ports and borders. One of the challenges is that stuff coming in through the ports and borders is not being detected. Something will be flagged—we produced a manifesto in the past couple of months to highlight the importance of ensuring the right level of enforcement and activity at the ports and borders. If we think about it in the context of vapes—or any other illicit product, to be honest—the reason they get on to the high street is that they come through the ports and borders. At the end of the day, we are an island, so if we have the right level of activity there, in co-ordination with other agencies, hopefully we will stop it getting through to the high street, and that reduces the burden of activity on trading standards.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Q Finally from me, in your response to the Government’s “Creating a smokefree generation” consultation, you called for a fixed penalty notice of £200 and maybe the option of increasing that. Do you think that the fines and the monetary penalties in the Bill are appropriate?

Kate Pike: We really welcome the addition of a fixed penalty notice to our enforcement toolkit, but we absolutely want to have our own range of sanctions, which includes the opportunity to go to prosecution for persistent or egregious offenders. The fixed penalty notice can be a really quick solution, potentially against an individual salesperson, depending on the setting and the nature of the offending. I think that £100 can be quite a lot; £200 would be more. I think that is enough, given the opportunity in the Bill to increase it at a later stage if it is not working or having the impact that we want.

John Herriman: It is all relative at the end of the day. It needs to be tested first. To some illegitimate businesses, that will be seen just as a business cost. Whatever the amount is, we need to ensure that it is not seen as a business cost that can just be absorbed. It has to be a tangible deterrent: that is the key.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Q It is great to see you—thanks for coming today. I think you are saying that at the moment the fine is set at the right level. It is a really important issue: by no means do we want it to appear to be a cost of doing business. Our previous witness was suggesting that for some shop workers it is a very significant sum and is quite problematic for them, so perhaps there should be training in the first instance.

We have sought to get the right balance, with a £100 fine that can be reduced to £50 if it is paid on the spot. For any of us, a day when we have to dish out £50 because we have done something wrong is a significant bad day. On the other hand, there is an escalation process to criminal prosecution. I am really keen that we get the balance right up front, notwithstanding that there will be powers to change it. Can I press you a bit further: is this or is this not the right place to start?

John Herriman: Can I make a broader point, and then maybe Kate can come in on the specifics? This is all about the market surveillance activity that allows you to understand what is happening on your local high streets and your ability to take enforcement action where necessary, whether that is a £100 fine or a prosecution. Fundamentally, that is the challenge at the moment. It is about the ability to have the right level of market surveillance and the right level of enforcement activity. I am sure it is a question that will come up. It is a challenge for trading standards at the moment, because over the past decade or so it has had significant cuts, in the region of 50%.

There are two halves to this question. First, is this the right legislation and are the amounts right? Secondly, legislation is only as good as the ability to enforce it. It feels as though the legislation is right—I will let Kate comment further on that—but the ability to enforce it is critical.

Kate Pike: Absolutely. Whenever we look at a new piece of regulation—as I think somebody mentioned earlier, we enforce more than 300 pieces of legislation across the spectrum—we ask, “Do we have the powers to enforce?” In the Tobacco and Vapes Bill, yes, we do. “Are there criminal penalties in there?” Yes, there are. The key things from our point of view—the building blocks—are there.

Across the spectrum, how many businesses sell tobacco? The impact assessment for the Bill says that there are something like 60,000 or 70,000 across the United Kingdom. On that spectrum, there are big businesses that know what they are doing and do not need a lot of support from us. There is a big chunk in the middle that might need a bit of support and guidance—they may make a mistake, but we can support them, help them and train them. Then there are a small amount at the other end that are the dodgy ones. We need to focus our enforcement efforts on them, because we will never be able to put one trading standards officer outside every business to be watching all the time.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Q It is clear to me, having done a visit with enforcement officers, that some so-called specialist vape shops and some newsagents just have the vapes next to the sweets. It is a free-for-all: you get your bubble gum and your vape there. Is that problematic? Will this legislation mean that enforcement officers shut them down? Will there be enough powers and resources to ensure that this can no longer happen?

Kate Pike: The Bill will have enabling regulations on vapes, with powers and criminal sanctions. That is good, but the specifics around where the vapes are positioned in store will be down to the next stage. We get calls all the time from people saying, “There’s a shop in my area called Toys and Vapes—do something about it!” There is actually no legislation that we can use to tackle that.

If you do not want the vapes next to the sweets, legislate for it. We will enforce what it says in the legislation, but we cannot make it up. People are always saying, “That’s not right,” but we cannot enforce morals. We can only enforce the law, so get it in there. If you do not want the vapes there, for very good reasons, give us legislation and we can enforce it.

[Rachael Maskell]

Q My big concern is the illicit trade around vapes. What further measures would be helpful in the legislation to enable you to do your job? Vapes are clearly a delivery mechanism. We have particularly focused on lung health; I am more concerned about the use of vapes for synthetic drugs, which are available in my community and, I am sure, elsewhere. What more can be done to ensure that we do not see the growth of illicit vapes on our street corners or in our shops?

Kate Pike: Illegal drugs are not a trading standards issue. If drugs are consumed via vape or by injection or rolled up in a roll-up, that is not our issue; that is a police issue. We can only enforce the law around the products where the enforcement is given to trading standards. We have no role whatsoever in illegal drugs in vapes. But there is a huge amount of enforcement around illegal drugs in this country, with the police, and the public health approach, about ensuring that people do not use illegal drugs. However they consume them, it is really important that they are on board—

[Rachael Maskell]

Q But a vape product looks like a vape product, in all its various kinds. That is really what I am getting at.

Kate Pike: If you have intelligence around a vape seller selling an illegal drug in a vape, or in any other sort of format, that should be reported to the police. The police will take action against illegal drug sales, or Border Force at the ports and borders. There is a huge enforcement body around illegal drugs.

John Herriman: It is the market surveillance point again. If you have the right level of market surveillance, which is down to capacity, you will have trading standards officers, as well as those from other agencies, out and about who will detect the stuff. Then you can take the appropriate enforcement activity by whichever agency is appropriate at that particular point.

I take the point that was made earlier. I was walking down Hackney high street with trading standards just a couple of weeks ago. About every third or fourth shop, regardless of whatever the main thing it sold was, was also selling vapes on visible display. It is about making sure that we are aware of the level of vapes being sold, and that we therefore take the appropriate action, which is what the Bill should enable us to do.

[The Chair]

Colleagues, we might be voting fairly soon, so short questions, please, and concise answers.

[Dr Johnson]

Q My question follows on from that of my colleague. Lincolnshire police measured what was in vapes confiscated from children in my constituency. They found chemicals like diethylene glycol diacetate, antifreeze, Steol-M, poster varnish and others. As I understand it, when they look at a vape in a box, one of the challenges for enforcers is being able to tell whether it is a real, legitimate vape that contains what it is supposed to contain or a fake vape that contains a whole load of nonsense and potentially harmful chemicals. How could the legislation help you with that?

Secondly, someone showed me on packets of cigarettes recently that there is a scannable code, and trading standards have a special scanner that they can scan that with. Would that sort of thing help on so-called legitimate vapes?

Kate Pike: Potentially. The track-and-trace legislation on tobacco that enables us to scan a packet of tobacco and find out if it is where it should be—it is tracked all the way through the system—could potentially work on vapes. It would be very complicated to bring in—well, not complicated; it would be a big exercise to bring in track and trace for vapes, but it is potentially something. As you know, there is a consultation out at the moment for vapes to become an excise product, so it could possibly be that we introduce track and trace alongside that for vapes.

If you look at a vape and you look at the packaging, there are lots of red flags that tell us if it is illegal. We can usually tell by the packaging alone. We are doing some market surveillance work at the moment for vapes that look as if they should be compliant; they are notified to the MHRA, to check the ingredients. So far, touch wood, we are not finding too many issues in those nominally compliant vapes. But there are so many illegal vapes out there. It is actually quite easy to see that they are illegal, when you see them. We do know how to identify them at the moment, but obviously it could become more difficult. We will just have to make sure that the new regulations are still enforceable when they come in. For example, if there is a ban on types of flavour, we would want that to be really clear. We do not want to have to go round sniffing or tasting. It needs to be clear by the description, rather than just some sort of guess along the lines of, “Is that strawberry bakewell-flavoured?” It would be very difficult for us to manage that.

[Kirsten Oswald]

Q I do not know if others have had this experience, but I am aware that I am increasingly being advertised at online by products that, although I am not really sure what they are, are certainly connected or proximate to tobacco or vapes. That leads me to wonder whether there are any tobacco, vaping or other connected or related products that are not covered by this Bill, which you think perhaps should be.

Kate Pike: I think the Bill is really good at closing some of those loopholes. It will include an age restriction on 0% nicotine vapes, for example. There are other nicotine products, such as the little nicotine pouches. The popular term is, I think, snus, but we know that snus is already banned in this country. The enabling regulations to put a regulatory framework around products like that will be really helpful. These industries are very innovative, so we just need to make sure that we are keeping up with our regulation. I think that the enabling regulation powers will enable us to keep up with new products, but it is continually little steps, and regulation chasing after innovation. We would like it to be the other way round, really.

[Trudy Harrison]

Q You are both very effectively articulating the complexity of your programme of work within trading standards, but 2027 seems like a terribly long timeframe. Given what we know about nicotine addiction and the outcomes, is it the right timeframe, and what will you need to be doing in that timeframe to achieve the deadline?

John Herriman: I think this is all about strategic resourcing. As I have already articulated, the profession has had a significant cut in resources over the last decade or so. Actually, we now have to go into a phase where we are rebuilding the capacity. We can do this; we know that we can enforce regulations, because we have seen that we can do it successfully within the world of tobacco. It is now about what we are doing as a profession to start building back that capacity. We are taking some new steps: for example, there are now apprenticeship schemes running in England, both at level 6 and level 4, and we are supporting the level 4 apprenticeships in Scotland and Wales.

One of the things that I think is really good about the Bill, and the work that DHSC and other Departments have been doing, is the taking of a strategic view. We have to build this capacity gradually—fairly swiftly, actually—into trading standards, but we also have to be clear on expectations with businesses, so that they know what is coming and we can therefore make sure that we are moving at the same sort of pace. By taking that strategic approach, it allows us to build the capacity at the right level and make sure we have trading standards officers who are qualified—it can sometimes take two to three years to train somebody as a fully-qualified trading standards officer. That way, we have a sustainable platform to make sure that the legislation can be enforced. Essentially, that is what we are seeing here. We have not seen this level of strategic approach to resourcing and tackling a problem in many other areas, so it is quite welcome.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Q You mentioned that trading standards has faced huge amounts of cuts, with many telling us that in some places there is not even a single trading standards officer. The enabling regulation and the powers within that will be really important, especially when making it clear what trading standards officers must look for when they go into a shop, how vapes are being marketed, and so on. The Government have already consulted on that. Do you think the Government should release that information now, so that they can work with you and do the preparatory work? What kind of timescales do you think there should be? We heard today from ASH that there is some evidence—for example, from Canada—around descriptors that we could already put in the Bill, or that we could implement immediately—why should we wait? Would it have been helpful to have some of that consultation around the enabling regulations already there?

John Herriman: The Bill itself is helpful in that it has enabling regulations within it. It is about a phased approach. We cannot turn a switch overnight: we have to build it up gradually. We will need to do a lot of training—and not just training, but recruitment of new apprentices, students and trainees into local authorities, as well as doing the business education part, alongside that—and move in a very structured way. The worst thing that could happen is that we have the regulations, we have the law in place, but cannot enforce it. That would mean that it became ineffective. It is about having a phased approach, and the Bill does that quite nicely. It fits within where trading standards is as a profession. We need to build back that capacity over time. We are still waiting to hear the outcome of the discussions on funding, which are happening at the moment.

[Bob Blackman]

Q You probably heard the previous witnesses giving their views about a licensing scheme. From your members’ perspective, would that make the issue of where tobacco and vaping products can be sold more enforceable? You made a comment in relation to other tobacco products. I have raised the issue of chewing tobacco and paan, in particular, which does not come within the scope here but has no enforcement from Trading Standards at all. Do you see that happening in the future?

Kate Pike: We pushed for tobacco licensing for many years. Since the last time we did that we have had tobacco track-and-trace sanctions come in and the regulation around track and trace, which ensures that every single business selling tobacco in the UK has to have an economic operator identifier, so that, using our scanner, we can see whether a particular product is legal for sale, or whether a business is legally able to sell. Although that is not a licensing system, it does give us many of the advantages of a licensing system that we would look for. Although there are potential benefits in thinking about a licensing system for nicotine products, I am not sure that it is a silver bullet to some of the answers. We have said before that the issues are not just around tackling supply, which licensing does; they are also about tackling demand. We just need to get to grips with a holistic approach to vapes in order to do that. In terms of licensing on the tobacco side, we are probably okay now, as long as we can make use of the track-and-trace sanctions. We might be able to use those for vapes as well, further down the line, given the vape excise duty.

[Bob Blackman]

Q And the attitude to paan and chewing tobacco?

Kate Pike: We do enforce around products. Any tobacco product has to be notified to OHID—it was PHE when it first started. So, there is responsibility for enforcement around products that are legally allowed to be sold in the UK. If they are tobacco products, if they are not notified they cannot be sold. So, there is a role there, although it is more difficult—it is not a day job. Certain local authorities will have more of an issue than others. It is probably not going to be everywhere, but for some local authorities it is a big issue. Perhaps we need to do more enforcement around what we can already do, and see where the gaps are.

John Herriman: To go back to the first point, there is a layered approach, which I think Kate has just articulated. There is a lot in the Bill that should work, so we need to look at that and see how we can enforce it and whether it works. There is a subtlety to this whole issue, particularly with regard to vapes, given that although there are under-age sales and illicit vapes, there is also a positive public health benefit for those that are smokers. So, we do not want to withdraw that access. Trading standards sits right in the middle of that. We can do a really good job when the regulations are clear; so we would like to have that clarity at the outset, which the Bill will give us. We can see whether that works; and there are always opportunities to come back if it does not. We have proved, though, that we can make it work in other areas.

[Bob Blackman]

Thank you.

[Dr Cameron]

Q This question is for John. You stated in the response to the Bill that enforcing the new age restriction will present its own challenges. What challenges do you foresee? Will the sector be penalised if it cannot tell the difference between a 35-year-old and a 40-year-old? How do you manage those intricacies?

John Herriman: I will let Kate answer on this one as well. There was a really good, comprehensive answer earlier from one of the people giving evidence: if this is the right thing to do, the right idea, it is something we will have to get used to doing. I think that is probably the principle that we would apply within the world of trading standards as well. We just have to get used to the new legislation and what it asks us to do, and then make sure that sellers are following that legislation. Probably the problem will be more at the business end rather than at our end, and this is where there is a really important role for business education and the likes of the British Retail Consortium, the Association of Convenience Stores and other organisations.

We must get the balance right: this is about the enforcement activity and the right level of legislation, but we also have to make sure there is an onus of responsibility and accountability on businesses themselves to solve part of the problem. I do not think it is right to put all of the problem on enforcement, for example. Therefore I would definitely be looking towards businesses to make sure that they are embracing this and making sure that they are doing the right business education and training along the way. Have you anything else to say on that, Kate?

Kate Pike: Absolutely. The other point, obviously, is about resources, which John has already highlighted. We are in discussions, but we do need to make it clear that trading standards needs more resources to enable it to deliver the enforcement in this Bill.

[The Chair]

I think we have received that message very loud and very clear.

Kate Pike: Good.

John Herriman: Did I mention that? [Laughter.]

[Steve Tuckwell]

Q You may have touched on this in some of your previous answers, but are there any tobacco and vaping products that are not covered by the Bill but which you think should be?

Kate Pike: We think that the tobacco age of sale should definitely apply to all tobacco products, and that the enabling regulations for vapes also allow the opportunity to add other nicotine products. The definition of nicotine is really helpful. The closing of the loopholes is really helpful. Loopholes are not helpful to enforcement, but closing the loopholes is really important to enforcement, so we are happy with that.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Q To come back to your answer about the track and trace that you have for tobacco, have you had any conversations with Border Force and the MHRA about perhaps doing this for vapes? As you said at the beginning, you did not imagine that the industry would grow in the way it actually has around illicit and illegal vapes.

Kate Pike: Yes. As I say, we are already in the consultation that HMRC has running now about a vape excise tax. One of the questions is, “Would you want to see these products subject to track and trace?”, and the CTSI will go back and say, “Yes, but let’s get the vape excise tax in now,” because of what that is going to give us. A number of you have said your worry is illegal vapes. HMRC being involved in this enforcement picture will be a real game changer, because there will be extra boots on the ground in addition to ours, and that will really help in tackling illegal vapes.

[The Chair]

Q There are no more questions around the table, so thank you to John and to Kate for your excellent and very clear evidence, and thank you for coming to see us.

Examination of Witness

Laura Young gave evidence.

15:39

[The Chair]

Colleagues, we have at least 10 minutes left—perhaps 10 or 15 minutes. We are now, by the science and wonder of technology, zooming up to Dundee, I think. We welcome Laura Young from the Centre for Water Law, Policy and Science at the University of Dundee, via Zoom. I am going to ask you to introduce yourself in a moment, Laura, and I will just say that when Division bells start ringing in about 10 or 15 minutes, we will all be dashing off. It will be nothing you have done wrong or something you have said that we don’t like; it is nothing at all like that. Laura, over to you, please.

Laura Young: Well, I am Scottish, so I will try to speak as fast as we are known for. Hello, I am Laura. I am a PhD researcher in environmental science and a campaigner, and I have worked extensively, looking specifically at disposable vapes but also looking at vaping in general over the past 18 months. I very much welcome this Bill and support a lot of what has been said, but I also think there is room for taking more action and I am happy to be giving evidence today.

[The Chair]

Thank you very much. You will hear first from your own Member of Parliament, Kirsten Oswald, who will ask the first question.

[Kirsten Oswald]

Q I have kept you as a constituent, Laura, despite your being away studying. I know that you will have handled conversations probably significantly better than the rest of us on the prevalence of vapes in all our communities, particularly in areas near schools and the coast, where they can lead to plastic pollution. Can you tell us what change you have seen over the last couple of years in terms of the numbers and explain why that is problematic to the environment ?

Laura Young: The environmental impact cannot be overstated. Vapes are a huge issue, especially for waste, and we have seen the numbers growing and growing. Material Focus, an environmental electronics charity, did some research specifically looking at disposable vapes in 2022 and 2023 and the number quadrupled. In 2023 we were looking at about 5 million a week. Jam-packed inside each and every vape are lots of precious materials, which of course are going to waste after one single use. We know they are not being recycled, so those materials are just being wasted. We are not getting them back.

We also know that vapes pose a huge risk to our waste workers. They have lithium batteries inside them and we have seen some devastating fires already because of them. That represents what we have been hearing today. Walking down any high street you will see the prevalence of these being sold in almost every type of shop everywhere. We see them sold everywhere, wasted everywhere, and having a huge impact on the environment and the health of people and children who get their hands on them.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Q Would you like to say a little more around how tobacco and vaping products impact the environment? There was an opportunity for the Government to do a lot more on cigarette butts. Do you want to say anything about that?

Laura Young: Of course, one of the obvious things is litter. Every single street has cigarette butts on it and that is very harmful. We do not want any litter, if possible. Disposable vapes have become an increasing site of litter as well. They are not just litter; they are electronic devices and are very damaging with lots of chemicals inside them. We have even had garage owners talking about people popping tyres with these shards of metal as they get squashed and run over, so they are very damaging.

All the way through the process of particularly vapes we see a lot of material resource—lithium, copper and cobalt, things that have to be mined around the world—put together for these devices to be used just once before they run out and are thrown away. The disposability speaks to a lot of the other problems. These are made as disposable. They are throwaway and cheap, and that leads to the fact that so many young people buy them because they are cheap, accessible and throwaway. Something that is absolutely an environmental issue with waste and litter is also a big problem in terms of accessibility for young people.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Q What impact do you think the Bill will have on improving the environmental outcomes?

Laura Young: I think the regulations and how those are designed will be crucial. I know there will be follow-up legislation mopping up other parts of the issues, with disposable vapes hopefully being banned, but it is important that we look at the design. How we get the most circular economy version of vapes is crucial: limiting as much as possible single-use plastic, looking at how we can make them modular, making sure we do not just shove a charging port at the bottom and hope for the best, but actually looking at how they can be circular by design.

On design, it is also important that we are beginning to see vapes that are legal—there are the illegal ones, which are to one side—that I believe are getting around existing legislation in terms of capacity. You now see ones that have different cartridges, so it is almost like the pens that you had where you could switch between the inks. You can now do that with vapes that are being sold legally. They are getting over the limits because they are saying, “This isn’t one big cartridge. This is four small ones.” We are already seeing the industry innovating in a negative way to get around the legislation, so we need to make sure that that does not happen when we bring in environmental topics as well as all the other ones for public health.

[Trudy Harrison]

Q You have expertly explained the concerns around plastic pollution from vapes, but what do we know so far about the impacts on nature and biodiversity from cigarette butts? Also, are you aware of any concerns about the air pollution risks on biodiversity from cigarettes?

Laura Young: This may be something that has gone under the radar: the No. 1 item littered is cigarette butts, particularly when you look by number. They have a huge environmental impact, particularly because plastic is inside the filters, and the filter is the butt that is let behind. Although there has been a lot of campaigning around the environmental impact of vapes, there have been amazing efforts to raise awareness of the environmental issues around tobacco by organisations like ASH Scotland and the Marine Conservation Society, one of which I know has already given evidence.

Globally, we also need to look at this as a huge industry. Of course, kind of like any other industry, they need to be looking at their footprint and their sustainability measures. We know of course that air pollution is absolutely key to the conversation, and that has an impact as well on wildlife and biodiversity. Neither tobacco or nicotine products, such as vaping, are good for the environment; they are very harmful to the environment. We are just beginning to see those harms with disposable vapes in particular, but we know that cigarette butts have had a longstanding impact on the environment. They are also just a nightmare to collect. They are so small and so problematic. On beaches, you will see them as much as you see sand. We definitely need a lot more action across both those sectors.

[Mary Glindon]

Q The concerns about the environment are important, but the other issue about banning the use is that it sends out a message that vapes may not be safe. I know a lot of vaping companies are trying their best to see how vapes can be disposed of safely. They have these new vapes where they are disposable, but they are not single use. Do you think there could be any alternative to a ban? Do you think a ban might deter people from giving up smoking because they think that because vapes are banned, they are not good for you? It is a complicated discussion to have about what should be done. Do you want to comment on some of the things I have said?

Laura Young: Absolutely. The first thing to remember is that vaping is not good for you. It is slightly better than smoking, but let us definitely not push the message that it is good for you.

On disposables, that is something I got to see first hand just last week. Only one place in Scotland has the capacity to recycle disposable vapes or any vapes at all. From watching that process, it takes an individual staff member with personal protective equipment under a ventilation hood—if you remember chemistry from when you were at school—pulling them apart manually with pliers. They separate the parts of the vape out and put lots of it to the side because it cannot be recycled, and they take away things like the battery, covering it in this special type of tape to ensure that it does not combust and burn, because of course lithium is very explosive. The whole process of recycling one vape takes over a minute for one member of staff. It is a huge cost, and it is not an economically viable piece of WEEE—waste electronical and electronic equipment—to recycle.

We know that only a tiny number of vapes are actually being recycled. If all five million a week that are currently being thrown away in the UK were sent to recycling centres, it would be a huge cost to local authorities, which often are the ones collecting them, and it would take a lot of infrastructure and people hours to process them.

I will just say that nobody wants to ban things—I certainly do not want to ban things. Nobody started by saying, “Here, these seem like a bit of an issue. Should we ban them?” We actually went through the process of asking all the questions that you and many others have asked. What are the solutions? What can we do? How can we raise awareness?

Unfortunately, with an item that is just so damaging and dangerous and is the complete opposite of a circular economy, which is what we are trying to achieve, they just cannot exist. Disposable electronic devices should not exist, and that is really important. It is our job—the rest of us—to ensure that the public health messaging comes across clearly, which is, “One of the main reasons we are banning these is the environmental impact and youth access, but we still want to help adult smokers quit smoking and move to really just breathing fresh air. We want to move them completely away from tobacco and nicotine products.”

[Mary Glindon]

I would just like to say that vaping is 95% safer than smoking.

[Dr Johnson]

Q I proposed a ten-minute rule Bill to ban disposable vapes last February, so I am delighted to see that the Government have brought in an statutory instrument to do exactly that. I am disappointed, but not surprised, to hear you say that industry is doing its best to circumnavigate the regulations before they are even brought in.

I have two questions. First, how do we ensure that the regulations are flexible enough for us to be able to stay ahead of such measures? Secondly, could you say a bit about the effect on wildlife? My hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Dr Hudson) has talked about puppies picking these things up in their mouths and the danger they can pose if the puppies bite into them. Could you talk a bit more about the danger that they pose to wildlife when they are thrown away?

Laura Young: Of course. On the regulations, I think that we have to think creatively and innovatively about some of the workarounds that might be being used. We are already seeing charging ports just being popped on the bottom. Of course, that might mean that the battery can be recharged a few extra times, but if it cannot be refilled with the solution, it is still, in practice, a single-use item and will have to be thrown away eventually.

The issue is about ensuring that we look at the builds and make sure that they are modular and that the circular-economy principles that we want to achieve are set in stone. I think that that means working as best as possible with the retailers and the manufacturers—although that will be really difficult—and looking to other initiatives, whether that is single-use plastics bans or treaties on plastic, one of which has just come to an end globally, to see what we can do.

I will tell you a story about the wildlife. A wildlife photographer, a birdwatcher, was taking some images of a marine bird doing a very normal activity, which was picking up a shellfish—what looked like a razorfish—and dropping it from a height to smash it open to get some delicious dinner. But after this young gull had failed multiple times, this photographer realised that, unfortunately, what it was actually picking up and dropping was a disposable vape. We are seeing not only domestic animals, such as cats and dogs and things that we love as pets, getting hold of disposable vapes and potentially breaking them open, but actual wildlife being impacted—picking them up, thinking they are shells on the beach, and trying to eat what is inside them.

That is just from the very short time that we have been paying attention and looking out for this, and from keen birdwatchers capturing it, so we know that there will be extensive wildlife impacts. We are only now scrambling around to try to find more evidence, but we know that it is already happening, and that that is just one example. The photographs are on Twitter, if anyone did want to go and find them. It is sad, but it is definitely the reality of what we are seeing.

[Mary Kelly Foy]

Q Just a very quick question: would you agree that this is symptomatic of the throwaway society that we live in? We have disposable vapes, plastic toys with happy meals and toasters—all small appliances that do not last long enough. They are all thrown away and are damaging the environment. I know that, in Durham, all sorts of electronic devices are thrown in the river, and that is interfering with wildlife.

[The Chair]

It is a fair question; it is not within scope of the Bill, but it is a fair question.

Laura Young: Yes, absolutely. Just last week, I and other leading scientists from across the UK published a piece in Science, the science magazine: a letter about disposable technology, using vapes as an example—the first in a wave of disposable, cheap tech that is having an impact—and about the need for a global effort to tackle this. That is absolutely a hot topic right now; if we do not get a grapple on it now and use vapes as an example of how to tackle it, we will just continue to see disposable electronics, which are all jam-packed full of things that we need for other devices for a green economy.

[The Chair]

Laura, thank you so much for your evidence this afternoon. There are no more questions—we are about to zoom off and vote right now—but you have brought the subject to life with your very colourful descriptions. Thank you so much for that.

[Aaron Bell (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Con)]

We apologise to the remaining witnesses, who we will try to squeeze in tomorrow.

Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned.—(Aaron Bell.)

03:53

Adjourned till Wednesday 1 May at twenty-five past Nine o’clock.

Written evidence reported to the House

TVB 01 J.J. Fox (St James’s) Limited

TVB 02 Barkers of Harrogate

TVB 03 C.Gars Ltd & Turmeaus Tobacconist

TVB 04 Havana House

TVB 05 Davidoff of London

TVB 06 Association of Convenience Stores (ACS)

TVB 07 Tor Imports Ltd

TVB 08 The Imported Tobacco Products Advisory Council (ITPAC)

TVB 09 Tobacco Manufacturers’ Association (TMA)

TVB 10 Scandinavian Tobacco Group A/S

TVB 11 Local Government Association (LGA)

TVB 12 European Cigar Manufacturers Association (ECMA)

TVB 13 Cigars Unlimited

TVB 14 Gawith Hoggarth & Co. Ltd

TVB 15 Paul Cheema

TVB 16 Sautter Cigars

TVB 17 BAT UK

TVB 18 Dr Jasmine Khouja, Senior Research Associate in Smoking Studies, University of Bristol