Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Second sitting)

Bob Blackman Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 30th April 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Nickie Aiken (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)]

Q I have a question for Mr Fell. Obviously the Bill will cover shisha, so I would welcome your views on shisha smoking and whether there is more we can do within the Bill or in general to tighten up shisha smoking.

Greg Fell: I would say that we need a licensing scheme for shisha smoking, and probably more education about the fact that it is a potent way to consume large amounts of tobacco really quickly and is quite damaging for people’s lungs. I am not sure what more could be achieved in the Bill, but I would like to see a licensing scheme for shisha bars. We enforce the law to its limits, but there are some limits to it.

[Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)]

Q I thank you for covering the issue of age verification; I think it is important to have a similar scheme across the UK. The other issue relating to licensing is that there are potentially two ways of licensing. One is to add to the existing alcohol licensing regime, and the other is to have a separate regime for vaping and tobacco. Which would you prefer to operate if we were to introduce a licensing scheme?

Cllr Fothergill: It is not a topic that we have a policy position on, but my personal view is that it would need to be a separate scheme, because it would have separate enforcement and separate legalities within it. It needs to be very clear for trading standards what they are enforcing against, whereas alcohol is quite different. We should not mix the two just because they both need licensing. I think that they need to be separate.

[Bob Blackman]

Q What is your view on the limitation of the number of premises that would be allowed to sell tobacco or vaping products?

Cllr Fothergill: I could not answer that one, I am afraid, but I would be happy to come back to you with a view on that.

Greg Fell: I have the same view. It is not my area of expertise so I would rather think about that one carefully.

[Mary Kelly Foy (City of Durham) (Lab)]

Q This is a question for Greg. It would be useful for the Committee and for people watching to hear your view on the impact of smoking and tobacco on public health.

Greg Fell: It is the single biggest cause of death. There is no real question about that. It may not be in many years’ time when smoking prevalence has come down, but right here, right now, it is. No other product is available that kills more than half its users when used according to the manufacturer’s instructions. Death is often preceded by a long illness—sometimes a short illness, but often a long one—often in folk of working age. Most people who die from smoking-related illnesses die too early.

Sheffield-wise—I know my numbers locally—it is a bit north of 700 deaths a year out of 5,000 or so, so not insignificant. To give you a reference, covid killed 1,500 people over the period of the pandemic. Smoking kills 700 people every year, year on year, and that is before we get into the illnesses. Aggregated across the country, that is 80,000-odd people—a Wembley stadium-sized group of people, a non-trivial number. It is also very inequitable and led by addiction. People spend enormous amounts of money on smoking, so stopping smoking would free up that money to be spent in other ways. Smoking remains the No. 1 cause of death and it is very inequitable—almost certainly causing the largest gap in healthy life expectancy and life expectancy inequality.

--- Later in debate ---

[Bob Blackman]

Q One issue that was raised on Second Reading but which is not in the Bill at the moment is the practice, particularly by people originating from the Indian subcontinent, of chewing tobacco, particularly paan, and the fact that it can be bought in any place. There are no regulations on it; there is no control over what the product is or what the contents of the product are. What is the view on bringing some regulation in? It is questionable whether it can be within the scope of this Bill, but clearly that causes throat and mouth cancer in large numbers of people.

Greg Fell: I do not have a view, Bob.

[Bob Blackman]

You do not? I am surprised.

Greg Fell: I do not think it is a terribly sensible thing to do. I do not think it would be possible to get it into this Bill. How one would regulate it I do not know. I shall give some consideration to that and get back to the Committee.

[Bob Blackman]

That would be helpful.

Cllr Fothergill: Again, from our perspective, it is not an area that we have looked at in terms of policy. We do have a policy on shisha, but we have not gone as far as the product you have just mentioned. But we will, I am sure.

[Bob Blackman]

I think we should have one.

Cllr Fothergill: I agree.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Q You made a very good case for the age of sale rising each year, but as the LGA, do you think that will be tricky for enforcement purposes? An argument is often made that if you were 40 and I was 41, we would go into a store and I would have to buy your cigarettes for you. What would you say to that as an argument for continuing with the smoke-free generation legislation?

Cllr Fothergill: We have to be very careful that we do not spook ourselves out of doing something that is absolutely right. If people get to the age of 40 and have to show that they are 40 to be able to buy cigarettes, that is what they should do. I am sorry to say that I am 67. I have to show a bus pass every time I get on a bus to show that I am old enough to travel for free.

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[Mary Kelly Foy]

It was about the use of vapes by heavily dependent smokers.

Ailsa Rutter: Yes. In the north-east, vapes have been a “game changer” for some of our heavily addicted smokers. I have permission to share with you the fantastic role that vapes have played in our biggest mental health trust, Cumbria, Northumberland, Tyne and Wear. We are talking about people who have been smoking 40 or 50 cigarettes a day, often for decades, who have really struggled to imagine that they could ever get off lethal smoking. Being able to give them something that still gives them their nicotine, but in a much purer, safer and cleaner form, has been a game changer.

Vapes are being used successfully in our drug and alcohol treatment services—on the point about alcohol, the two often go hand in hand. If we are really intent on ending smoking, we must do more on alcohol. Wearing my Balance hat—Balance is the alcohol bit—it is really important that we do not think of risk-taking behaviour in youth as just vaping. Last week, the World Health Organisation published a report that shows that across 44 countries, the UK sadly has the highest use of alcohol among 11-year-olds. I hope nobody thinks that the amount of alcohol promotion, advertising, marketing and so on is okay. I think it is quite important that we look at risk-taking behaviours in the round.

[Bob Blackman]

Q In answer to my colleague, Nickie Aiken, you raised the primary issue of age verification. We get an opportunity to change the law on tobacco and vaping only once every 10 years or so, so it is quite important that we get as much in as we can. What other improvements would you like to make to the Bill to strengthen the argument you are putting, to get people to quit smoking or not even start in the first place?

Ailsa Rutter: That is a really good point. I think it goes back to not wanting to delay the progress of the Bill. It is not necessarily for legislation, but it is important that we have a very clear communications strategy. Reflecting on previous legislation, much of the high levels of compliance we have seen in this country have come from very proactive communications in advance. We need to be really careful that the narrative does not get overly confused. It worries me enormously that too many people are staying on smoking because they are scared of even trying to switch over to a significantly less harmful product. I worry enormously about scaring people. It is absolutely right that we have evidence-based messaging to children and young people, but they are messengers who go back to their parents, and we know that it is very important that they are sending clear messages back. So, I will defer on your question about additional amendment—sorry.

[Bob Blackman]

Q May I prompt you? We have heard from previous witnesses about licensing. The Minister has talked about warning messages in packs and individual cigarette papers. Would you support those measures?

Ailsa Rutter: I absolutely would. Fresh has been advocating a tobacco licensing scheme for many years. I do not know whether it is in the parameters of the Bill, but it is wrong that anybody can set up their car boot and sell a lethal consumer product. I would also strongly recommend that previous consultations on things such as pack inserts are looked at again: there is a strong rationale for that. Canada is leading the way with a clear message on the cigarette stick itself. Those are called dissuasive cigarettes. There are certainly other things within that realm. I would also be really willing in the future to discuss the role of a “polluter pays” levy; that is something worth considering.

[The Chair]

Thank you. There are four minutes left and three people have already caught my eye, so short questions and short answers please, colleagues.

--- Later in debate ---

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Q You mentioned that trading standards has faced huge amounts of cuts, with many telling us that in some places there is not even a single trading standards officer. The enabling regulation and the powers within that will be really important, especially when making it clear what trading standards officers must look for when they go into a shop, how vapes are being marketed, and so on. The Government have already consulted on that. Do you think the Government should release that information now, so that they can work with you and do the preparatory work? What kind of timescales do you think there should be? We heard today from ASH that there is some evidence—for example, from Canada—around descriptors that we could already put in the Bill, or that we could implement immediately—why should we wait? Would it have been helpful to have some of that consultation around the enabling regulations already there?

John Herriman: The Bill itself is helpful in that it has enabling regulations within it. It is about a phased approach. We cannot turn a switch overnight: we have to build it up gradually. We will need to do a lot of training—and not just training, but recruitment of new apprentices, students and trainees into local authorities, as well as doing the business education part, alongside that—and move in a very structured way. The worst thing that could happen is that we have the regulations, we have the law in place, but cannot enforce it. That would mean that it became ineffective. It is about having a phased approach, and the Bill does that quite nicely. It fits within where trading standards is as a profession. We need to build back that capacity over time. We are still waiting to hear the outcome of the discussions on funding, which are happening at the moment.

[Bob Blackman]

Q You probably heard the previous witnesses giving their views about a licensing scheme. From your members’ perspective, would that make the issue of where tobacco and vaping products can be sold more enforceable? You made a comment in relation to other tobacco products. I have raised the issue of chewing tobacco and paan, in particular, which does not come within the scope here but has no enforcement from Trading Standards at all. Do you see that happening in the future?

Kate Pike: We pushed for tobacco licensing for many years. Since the last time we did that we have had tobacco track-and-trace sanctions come in and the regulation around track and trace, which ensures that every single business selling tobacco in the UK has to have an economic operator identifier, so that, using our scanner, we can see whether a particular product is legal for sale, or whether a business is legally able to sell. Although that is not a licensing system, it does give us many of the advantages of a licensing system that we would look for. Although there are potential benefits in thinking about a licensing system for nicotine products, I am not sure that it is a silver bullet to some of the answers. We have said before that the issues are not just around tackling supply, which licensing does; they are also about tackling demand. We just need to get to grips with a holistic approach to vapes in order to do that. In terms of licensing on the tobacco side, we are probably okay now, as long as we can make use of the track-and-trace sanctions. We might be able to use those for vapes as well, further down the line, given the vape excise duty.

[Bob Blackman]

Q And the attitude to paan and chewing tobacco?

Kate Pike: We do enforce around products. Any tobacco product has to be notified to OHID—it was PHE when it first started. So, there is responsibility for enforcement around products that are legally allowed to be sold in the UK. If they are tobacco products, if they are not notified they cannot be sold. So, there is a role there, although it is more difficult—it is not a day job. Certain local authorities will have more of an issue than others. It is probably not going to be everywhere, but for some local authorities it is a big issue. Perhaps we need to do more enforcement around what we can already do, and see where the gaps are.

John Herriman: To go back to the first point, there is a layered approach, which I think Kate has just articulated. There is a lot in the Bill that should work, so we need to look at that and see how we can enforce it and whether it works. There is a subtlety to this whole issue, particularly with regard to vapes, given that although there are under-age sales and illicit vapes, there is also a positive public health benefit for those that are smokers. So, we do not want to withdraw that access. Trading standards sits right in the middle of that. We can do a really good job when the regulations are clear; so we would like to have that clarity at the outset, which the Bill will give us. We can see whether that works; and there are always opportunities to come back if it does not. We have proved, though, that we can make it work in other areas.

[Bob Blackman]

Thank you.

[Dr Cameron]

Q This question is for John. You stated in the response to the Bill that enforcing the new age restriction will present its own challenges. What challenges do you foresee? Will the sector be penalised if it cannot tell the difference between a 35-year-old and a 40-year-old? How do you manage those intricacies?

John Herriman: I will let Kate answer on this one as well. There was a really good, comprehensive answer earlier from one of the people giving evidence: if this is the right thing to do, the right idea, it is something we will have to get used to doing. I think that is probably the principle that we would apply within the world of trading standards as well. We just have to get used to the new legislation and what it asks us to do, and then make sure that sellers are following that legislation. Probably the problem will be more at the business end rather than at our end, and this is where there is a really important role for business education and the likes of the British Retail Consortium, the Association of Convenience Stores and other organisations.

We must get the balance right: this is about the enforcement activity and the right level of legislation, but we also have to make sure there is an onus of responsibility and accountability on businesses themselves to solve part of the problem. I do not think it is right to put all of the problem on enforcement, for example. Therefore I would definitely be looking towards businesses to make sure that they are embracing this and making sure that they are doing the right business education and training along the way. Have you anything else to say on that, Kate?

Kate Pike: Absolutely. The other point, obviously, is about resources, which John has already highlighted. We are in discussions, but we do need to make it clear that trading standards needs more resources to enable it to deliver the enforcement in this Bill.