Oral Answers to Questions
Bob Blackman Excerpts(2 days, 15 hours ago)
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Wes Streeting
I am happy to confirm that it is my view that, when there are too many targets and everything is being measured, nothing ends up being measured. We need to give more freedom and autonomy to good leaders, including clinical leaders and managers in the NHS who are coming up with some of the best productivity gains in the system. That is why we have announced new support for, and investment in, the college of leadership for both clinical and executive leaders in the NHS. I would be delighted to meet the right hon. Gentleman to discuss those issues. He was a great Chair of the Health and Social Care Select Committee, but back in July, we saw a great example of how we can improve things by sacking bad managers.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
One of the lessons from the pandemic is the importance of NHS communications. Last week, I joined victims of the sodium valproate scandal to hand in a petition. They tried to download from the website the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency’s yellow card adverse drug reactions literature, but were unable to do so. Will the Secretary of State look at this as a matter of urgency? People need to be warned about the risks of taking certain drugs.
Wes Streeting
As the hon. Gentleman knows, I am a great champion of patient power, and a key part of giving patients more power and control over their healthcare is better access to information. That is why, as well as improvements to the NHS app—which will provide far easier interaction with the NHS for patients—I am working with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology to make sure all the information held by Government is more accessible for our citizens, particularly where that includes vital safety information and guidance, as the hon. Gentleman has mentioned.
National Insurance Contributions: Healthcare
Bob Blackman Excerpts(1 week ago)
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Karin Smyth
My hon. Friend brings a great deal of expertise to the House from her work in social care, so she knows and understands the precarious nature of the sector, which we cannot stress enough. I do not know whether the Conservatives have actually read the report by Lord Darzi, but that report and its appendices give a really clear idea and diagnosis of the state in which the NHS and social care system was left. It will take a long time to rebuild it, and the sustainability of general practice and primary care is particularly problematic. That is why we took those actions in the summer, and why we will continue to support them and build up a neighbourhood health service.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
The Minister will understand that GPs are private contractors to the health service, as are pharmacists, hospices and many wonderful charities. The Government have decided to ensure that the public sector is protected from the national insurance increase. All that the Minister—or her Secretary of State—needs to do is agree that all the suppliers to the national health service are also protected, which would safeguard their position. Otherwise, care homes will close down, pharmacies will close down, and hospices will not be able to provide their services. My constituency has the wonderful St Luke’s hospice, which does brilliant work—I helped to found it back in the 1980s—and which has told me that it will have to reduce services drastically as a result of the changes. Whenever nurses and other medical practitioners get a pay rise, those suppliers have had to cope without being given the money to fund that pay rise. They need to be protected from that as well.
Karin Smyth
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his comments and for supporting his local hospice. He is an experienced parliamentarian; he knows that this is not simple and that the provider landscape is complicated. As we heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts), large private equity companies own many social care providers. We want to ensure that any additional funding from the Budget goes exactly where it needs to be: supporting patients—our constituents—where they live and need care. That is why, over the next few months, we will continue to talk to providers in the usual way about the allocation of those funds.
Oral Answers to Questions
Bob Blackman Excerpts(1 month, 1 week ago)
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Stephen Kinnock
Obviously, health is a devolved matter and funding for pharmacies in Wales is the responsibility of the Welsh Government. Nevertheless, I pay tribute to the Welsh Government for securing a deal with pharmacies in Wales in line with DDRB—the review body on doctors’ and dentists’ remuneration—pay recommendations. I know that arrangements in England affect matters in Wales and I am working as a matter of urgency to conclude the consultation on the community pharmacy contractual framework.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
Wes Streeting
Whatever stage the Bill got to, it was not completed, was it? We will bring back a tobacco and vapes Bill that is stronger than the Conservatives’ and I look forward to seeing if they support it.
NHS: Independent Investigation
Bob Blackman Excerpts(2 months, 1 week ago)
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Wes Streeting
First, my hon. Friend is right that we should celebrate and thank staff who are doing an outstanding job against a very difficult set of circumstances. On his second point, we have to ensure that, on the tech side, we unlock productivity in the system. Having literally sat looking over the shoulder of GPs at their IT systems, I well understand those frustrations. For the benefit of all observers, there is sometimes a perception that I am up against NHS staff when it comes to reform. Actually, it is staff who are crying out for change.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
One aim of the Lansley reforms was to transfer from Ministers to clinicians decisions on the day-to-day running of the health service. It is not clear from his statement whether the Secretary of State intends to change that process, but let me give him a constructive proposal that he might take on board, which is to streamline the business planning side of the NHS. Staff have to go through multiple bids and preparations of business plans before decisions are made. That means that more money is spent on employing business consultants than consultants in hospitals. I have campaigned for this change for many years. Will he take that on board? [Interruption.]
Wes Streeting
The Minister for Secondary Care was whispering in my ear that it was her frustration with exactly the bureaucratic processes that the hon. Gentleman describes that led to her seeking election as a Member of Parliament to sort them out, so I defer to her on this one.
On a serious note, he is right that wherever we find waste and inefficiency designed in, we must deal with it. I want to see an NHS that is more clinically led, free from political interference. We must also be honest: as it is such an enormous part of the public sector, which the public pay an enormous price for and value so much, there will always need to be an accountability relationship. What I have tried to build with NHS England in the last couple of months, with real joy in the process, is a real team between the Department of Health and Social Care and NHS England, as well as the team across the country. I look forward to continuing to galvanise that team as we embark on the 10-year plan process.
Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Seventh sitting)
Bob Blackman ExcerptsTuesday 14th May 2024
(6 months, 1 week ago)
Public Bill CommitteesRead Full debate Tobacco and Vapes Bill 2023-24 View all Tobacco and Vapes Bill 2023-24 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 14 May 2024 - (14 May 2024)
Preet Kaur Gill
Let me touch briefly on new clause 12, on the consultation on pack inserts. The Government committed to consulting on regulations a year ago, and the Department for Health and Social Care consultation closed on 10 October 2023. However, a response has still not been published, despite Government principles stating that it should have been published within 12 weeks, or that an explanation should have been provided for why that was not possible. Will the Minister please promise that the response will be published soon, so that we can get on with putting the regulations in place with the full information to hand?
Our new clause 12 would require the Secretary of State to publish the response within three months, which is more than generous, given the delays to date. That would then pave the way for the real prize—the real purpose of clause 58—which is to allow us to introduce stronger and more detailed quit messaging in tobacco products, so that more smokers kick the habit for good.
On average, smokers take 30 attempts to quit smoking before quitting for good, so it is essential to do everything possible to motivate them to attempt to quit. There is sufficient evidence from Canada, where tobacco pack inserts have been mandatory since 2000, that they can help to motivate smokers to quit. That is why we tabled amendments 18 and 19, which I would like to be considered together. They would require the Secretary of State to make regulations within six months to require tobacco companies to include information in their products to dispel the myth that smoking relieves stress and anxiety.
I am passionate about this issue. In my maiden speech, I vowed to campaign to improve the mental health of the young people of this nation and now, in Mental Health Awareness Week, we have the opportunity through this Bill to do something that could make a real difference. In the evidence sessions the other week, we heard a passionate and moving testimony from Mark Rowland of the Mental Health Foundation that convinced me all the more that taking this action is the right thing to do.
Smoking doubles the risk of people developing depression, more than one in two people with severe mental health conditions smoke, and the life expectancy of those with mental health conditions is reduced. The issues that our young people and children face with their mental health are well known to everyone present, and smoking simply exacerbates those issues. Yet a 2022 survey found that over 40% of smokers in England cite stress relief as a reason why they smoke. Despite all the evidence to the contrary, the myth that smoking reduces stress and anxiety persists, in all its utter perversity.
This has not happened by accident. It is a myth that has been manufactured and spread by the tobacco industry. Powerful companies have commissioned research and fed it into the public domain, to create the impression that smoking has medicinal properties. It does not. We see all the time, in any gritty noir TV show or film, the stressed protagonist busily drawing on a cigarette before they face their demons. We can see how, if we do not confront such imagery head-on, it serves only to reinforce the myth.
The amendments seek to send a clear message that smoking does not relieve stress or anxiety and actually exacerbates them. The feeling that someone gets when they take a drag on a cigarette is not a real health benefit; it is a temporary relief from the withdrawal from the addiction that makes them feel worse in the first place. That is what is so insidious about this whole dynamic: it preys on the anxious, the depressed and the vulnerable.
As I have said, more than one in two people with severe mental health conditions smoke, yet whereas almost everyone understands the link between smoking and cancer, the link with mental health conditions is much less well understood. As the CEO of the Mental Health Foundation told us, it was not until 2008 that smoke-free policies were made mandatory in mental health settings. A third of mental health professionals had reservations about those policies, not understanding the link, but the evidence we have now is strong: people with mental health problems are likely to feel much calmer and more positive and to have a better quality of life after giving up smoking. Evidence suggests that stopping smoking is as effective as taking antidepressants.
As the Committee will be aware, we already face a mental health crisis in this country, with a quarter of our health burden being a result of mental ill health. We should take any opportunity to reduce that burden, so I urge the Minister to accept the amendment so that we can rid society of this insidious myth for good.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship once again, Sir Gary. I rise to speak in favour of the measures that I and other colleagues on the Committee have proposed.
Amendments 22 and 23 are essential consequential amendments that seek to introduce markings on cigarette papers and to define cigarette papers so that that is clear in the law. I am interested in the Minister’s view of our proposals. We seek to make sure that health warnings can be put literally on to the cigarettes and other tobacco products themselves, rather than just on the packs.
New clause 5 is intended to look at mandatory health warnings on cigarettes and rolling papers, and at the regulations that would need to be rolled out and consulted on among tobacco manufacturers. It would enable us to have a consultation, rather than to change the law immediately.
Our proposal is not new. It was first proposed by the all-party parliamentary group on smoking and health, of which I am the chairman, in our 2021 report and recommendations to the Government. Importantly, our recommendation was endorsed by Javed Khan in his 2022 report. It is one recommendation that has not, thus far, been included in the Bill.
This is not even a novel policy. My noble Friend in the other place, Lord Young of Cookham, first proposed cigarette warnings when he was a Health Minister in Margaret Thatcher’s Government—a great Government at the time. His statement at the 1979 world conference on tobacco and health bears repeating. He said:
“The solution to many of today’s medical problems will not be found in the research laboratories of our hospitals, but in our Parliaments. For the prospective patient, the answer may not be cure by incision at the operating table, but prevention by decision at the Cabinet table…Historically, a nation would look to its doctors for better health. Now they should look to their Members of Parliament.”
Professor Sir Stephen Powis, the national medical director of NHS England, echoed Lord Young’s comments when he said to this Committee that the legislation we are considering is “possibly the most important” piece of legislation since Parliament passed the National Health Service Act 1946, which led to the formation of the NHS on 5 July 1948. In his view, the legislation that we are considering is
“one of the most important—possibly the most important—pieces of legislation since the passage of that Act.”––[Official Report, Tobacco and Vapes Public Bill Committee, 1 May 2024; c. 89, Q129.]
This year, my noble Friend in the other House, Lord Young, will have been in Parliament for 50 years—50 years in which he has fought long and hard to end the blight that smoking leaves on society. It would be a just tribute to his efforts if the Government committed to implement this policy, which he first called for more than 30 years ago. Tobacco manufacturers already print on to cigarette papers, so it would be cheap and easy to implement.
New clause 4, on mandatory health information inside tobacco products, would commit the Government to consult again on draft regulations to require mandatory pack inserts containing health information such as quit messaging. Pack inserts were first proposed by the all-party parliamentary group on smoking and health in our 2021 report, that recommendation was also endorsed by Javed Khan in 2022, and the Government consulted on their introduction in a consultation that closed on 10 October 2023.
I am sure my right hon. Friend the Minister will be well aware that the Government’s own guidelines state:
“Government responses to consultations should be published in a timely fashion”,
which is defined as
“within 12 weeks of the consultation”,
or they should
“provide an explanation why this is not possible.”
It is disappointing that, more than seven months after the consultation closed, the Government have still not published their response or given a reason for not doing so.
Bob Blackman
I rise to speak to amendment 21, which I tabled with other hon. Members. It seeks to regulate vaping product standards and is vital to the Bill. The amendment allows for changes to other features of vaping or nicotine products, as set out in regulation 36 of the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016, which at the moment do not distinguish between the differences among brands, such as capacity of refills, cartridges or pods, and nicotine delivery. My amendment would ensure that the Secretary of State has powers to revise generic product requirements, as set out in regulation 36 of the TRPR.
Importantly, my measure would be permissive, rather than a requirement. The wording of clause 63(1)(f) as drafted limits revision to features that “distinguish between different brands”, and could potentially exclude revision to generic standards such as capacity of refills, cartridges and pods, and nicotine delivery. The standards in the TRPR were developed for e-cigarettes only in the EU tobacco products directive back in 2013. Vaping and nicotine products have evolved considerably over the past 11 years, and they will continue to evolve, so it is vital that the Secretary of State has powers to revise the standards.
The change I propose is not to the intent of the clause; it is merely a clarification to ensure that there is no risk of limiting the powers of the Secretary of State only to characteristics that are brand-specific. Will the Minister, in her response, either accept amendment 21 or to come back with further consequential amendments, which will ensure that the Secretary of State has the powers that we know will be needed, because the industry will evolve and change its products. The industry will look at the Bill when it becomes an Act, and the risk is that we will have to come back and look at this again.
Preet Kaur Gill
New clause 10 would provide powers to the Secretary of State to amend regulations 36 and 38 of the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016. As has been remarked several times in our debates, one of the biggest risks to the success of this legislation in achieving a smoke-free future and tackling youth vaping is that, if the Bill is not tightly worded, vexatious tobacco companies could find loopholes and workarounds. We have been discussing those with the failure of the flavours ban; the same goes for vapes.
To reiterate, Labour is ready to come down like a ton of bricks on any company that would attempt to profit at the expense of our children’s health. We know that the business model of tobacco and, let us face it, of vape companies is addiction. That is not to say that vapes are anywhere near as destructive and harmful as tobacco, but they are not good for us, and if we do not smoke, we should not vape.
The clauses on product requirements provide powers to the Secretary of State to create regulations for the retail packaging of vaping and nicotine products, as well as other product requirements, and they are, at face value, welcome. For a long time, we have been saying that we need to come down hard on those companies blatantly marketing nicotine addiction to children. I have seen egregious examples of that. It is not just the bright colours and pick-and-mix flavours. We heard in evidence from the NASUWT about vapes designed to look like USB sticks or highlighter pens so that they can easily fool teachers in schools. E-liquids available on the market called Candy King look like sherbet dip. I was sent one example from trading standards that really turned my stomach: a vape it seized that was shaped like a sippy cup. That is why we have long been calling for the standardisation of vape product requirements, to remove the risk that products can be designed to appeal to children. At a minimum, the regulations should allow for bright colouring and child-appealing imagery and product names to be removed.
The one thing that companies have shown time and again, however, is that they are agile. They are able to innovate faster than Government have been able to keep up, often to harmful ends. My concern with clauses 61 and 63, which new clause 10 seeks to address, is that the powers provided are limited. In clause 61(3), the wording specifies that the regulations that the Secretary of State may create may include provisions about
“features of the packaging of vaping products or nicotine products which could be used to distinguish between different brands of the product”.
The same phrase is used about other product requirements in clause 63(1)(f). My concern is that such a caveat could exclude revision to generic standards, such as capacity of refills, cartridges or pods, and nicotine delivery.
As I mentioned, we have heard how part of the issue with the use of vapes is their tactility. They are discreet and can easily be hidden, and all evidence I have received about the concurrent disposable proposals that are being worked on by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs is that there will be little change. The leading producers will be able to meet those new requirements with a few minor adjustments to their products, such as attaching a USB port. I appreciate from his amendment that the hon. Member for Harrow East has similar concerns. I therefore think we should include provisions for other requirements to be introduced for these products that would have an impact on their use by children, while maintaining their viability as an attractive stop-smoking aid.
I include in new clause 10 powers to amend regulation 38 of the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016, as well as regulation 36 on general product requirements, as they cover a range of miscellaneous presentational issues such as misleading or harmful claims that the product has certain health or lifestyle benefits, or attempts to mimic other items. I note, for example, that the current regulations specify that vapes cannot look like a food or cosmetic product, but that does not include looking like stationery, which was an issue identified in evidence by the NASUWT. Conversely, those regulations specify that a product cannot make any environmental claims where it may, in fact, be beneficial to do so to encourage greater use of reusable features once the regulations on single-use vapes come into effect.
Simply put, the purpose of the new clause is to give greater flexibility to Ministers to design regulations that can respond to problems as they arise and so that those powers are not limited to the aesthetic features of packaging or the products themselves, but can prohibit product claims and other characteristics that may appeal to children. My concern is that the legislation as drafted would not achieve that, particularly as we are dealing with regulations that were designed for vapes but which, through the Bill, could be extended to a host of as yet less understood nicotine products. We therefore need that flexibility.
Preet Kaur Gill
I thank the Minister for her explanation of the clause. As I have already outlined, we are very concerned about the explosion in under-age vaping in recent years, with youth use trebling in the past two years alone. I think I speak for everyone in the Labour party when I say that we have been very concerned about some of the products appearing on our local shop shelves, which are obviously marketed to children.
I do not want to lump the whole of the industry in together, but some of these companies are clearly linked to big tobacco and have used big tobacco-style tactics to target youngsters. They see the way things are going with smoking and have sought to addict a new generation through vapes and other products. We therefore support the clause, which will allow us to stop products with flavours mimicking popular sweets or with bizarre names like “unicorn shake” from sucking young people and other vulnerable non-smokers in. I am afraid to say that the Government have been asleep at the wheel on this issue, and there has been a bit of a free-for-all as a result. I was flabbergasted to learn from the MHRA that something like 600,000 different vaping products have gone through the notification process and can legally be sold in the UK now.
All that said, I do appreciate the genuine and legitimate concern from people who have used vapes to help them quit smoking that, in seeking to course correct, the Government could go too far in the other direction and take away the flavours that they enjoy and feel have helped them stay off cigarettes. I appreciate that my hon. Friend the Member for North Tyneside has raised concerns to that effect, and I want to reassure her that we are committed to consulting on this issue before introducing regulations, so that we can get the balance right.
I have mentioned on previous clauses that when it comes to tobacco regulation, some of the restrictions on flavours have been among the least successful of any regulations brought in by successive Governments in recent decades. In the disappointment of the menthol ban is the cautionary tale that implementing these regulations will take thought and care. Similarly, the quagmire that the Food and Drug Administration in the US has sunk into is something we should obviously seek to avoid. I wonder if the Minister could therefore comment on what lessons she has drawn from the US, where the blanket ban on flavours has seen only a few dozen products approved for legal sale in three years, while illegal products remain widely available in stores.
The key issue we need to crack is what the best way is of dealing with flavours—is it descriptors, ingredients or the characterising flavour itself? On the latter point, I have already mentioned the menthol ban. Can the Minister please set out her view on how to proceed, given that the Bill leaves the specifics of how to implement restrictions on flavours quite open, including how the flavour of a product is to be determined. Has she conducted a systematic review of how Governments in other jurisdictions have sought to tackle this? Given our desire to protect the use of vapes as a smoking cessation aid, can she set out how restrictive she thinks regulations on flavours should be? Would she go as far as Canada in banning all fruit flavours, for instance? Given that the powers in the clause may be some of the trickiest to implement, I would be grateful if she could devote time in her response to answering these questions.
Bob Blackman
I rise in support of clause 62, noting the two amendments proposed by a Member not on the Committee that would have removed the power of the Secretary of State to deal with flavours. I consider it vital that the Secretary of State can make regulations about flavours of vaping products and nicotine products. As has been said, this is a much-needed power to help curb youth vaping.
The chief medical officer Sir Chris Whitty spoke very strongly when giving evidence to the Committee. He said:
“We are strongly supportive of Ministers in all four nations having the power to regulate flavours…We know that otherwise the vape industry will use this to essentially drive a coach and horses through the aims of the Bill, which is to make products less attractive to children”.––[Official Report, Tobacco and Vapes Public Bill Committee, 1 May 2024; c. 74, Q103.]
Indeed, literally overnight Action on Smoking and Health has published data showing that youth vaping has stabilised. That is the good news. The bad news is that 7.6% of 11 to 17-year-olds regularly vape. That is above the pre-pandemic level of 4.4%, so it has almost doubled since then. Young people are being encouraged to become addicted to vaping and will potentially go on to even more harmful products.
Exposure to marketing is also up. Some 55% of young people are exposed to vaping in shops, where vapes are on full display, and nearly a third are exposed to vaping online, so we need to take action. The measures in the Bill, particularly in this clause, will make starting to vape far less attractive to young people. That is why it is essential that it remains part of the Bill. I hope that as the Bill progresses we can resist further proposals that might seek to remove this measure from the Bill.
Kirsten Oswald
The clause is important. We have had discussions here and listened to experts in numerous sessions, which should give us a real opportunity to pause and consider why the measure is necessary. We know the incredible damage that smoking does to far too many lives and the importance of assisting people to stop smoking. Vaping can certainly be an important and helpful part of smoking cessation—that must be acknowledged.
I find it difficult, though, to imagine that many people successfully stop smoking by using a hot pink disposable pocket-money costing vape in “candy floss unicorn” flavour. That is not what those are for nor what they are aimed at. Action to deal with flavourings, as well as names and descriptions and so on, is essential. We are more than able to deal with smoking cessation and the importance of supporting that at the same time as dealing with the harms of vaping. I would be interested if the Minister could tell us about lessons from elsewhere about how that has successfully been done.
It is important to reiterate the significant numbers of youths who vape: 7.6% of 11 to 17-year-olds currently vape. That is not those who have tried vaping. For those who have tried vaping, the numbers are significantly higher and they are absolutely targeted by marketing. Even those numbers—which, as the mother of teenagers, certainly will give me further grey hair—are partly because of the exposure to marketing. We know that wherever we are and whichever shop we go into, we see attractive displays of vapes, and the flavours are a part of those displays. More than half of young people have felt exposed to that kind of marketing in shops, and nearly a third online. The Minister will not be surprised to hear me remind the Committee that people are also exposed to the advertising when they go to watch their favourite sports teams. That is wholly unacceptable and indefensible.
I support the clause, although I think more could be done, but that will come up in our later conversations.
Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Eighth sitting)
Bob Blackman ExcerptsTuesday 14th May 2024
(6 months, 1 week ago)
Public Bill CommitteesRead Full debate Tobacco and Vapes Bill 2023-24 View all Tobacco and Vapes Bill 2023-24 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 14 May 2024 - (14 May 2024)
Preet Kaur Gill
As the Minister has set out, clause 78 outlines the territorial extent of the Bill. We have discussed many of these discrepancies with earlier clauses, particularly on the sale and supply of tobacco, vapes and nicotine products. I have no further comments to add.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 78 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 79
Commencement
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
I beg to move amendment 24, in clause 79, page 42, line 16, leave out “and 8” and insert
“, 8 and (age verification policy)”.
This amendment to the commencement provisions would mean that NC6 (age verification policy in England and Wales) would come into force six months after Royal Assent.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
New clause 6—Age verification policy—
“(1) A person commits an offence if the person—
(a) carries on a tobacco, herbal smoking product or vaping product business, and
(b) fails to operate an age verification policy in respect of premises at which the person carries on the tobacco, herbal smoking product or vaping product business.
(2) Subsection (1) does not apply to premises (“the business premises”) from which—
(a) tobacco products, herbal smoking products, cigarette papers or vaping products are, in pursuance of a sale, despatched for delivery to different premises, and
(b) no other tobacco, herbal smoking product or vaping product business is carried on from the business premises.
(3) Before the specified date, an “age verification policy” is a policy that steps are to be taken to establish the age of a person attempting to buy a tobacco product, cigarette papers or a vaping product on the premises (the “customer”) if it appears to the person selling the tobacco product, cigarette papers or vaping product that the customer may be under the age of 25 (or such older age as may be specified in the policy).
(4) After the specified date, an “age verification policy”—
(a) in relation to a tobacco business or herbal smoking product business, is a policy that steps are to be taken to establish the age of a person attempting to buy a tobacco product, cigarette papers, herbal smoking product or cigarette papers on the premises (the “customer”) if it appears to the person selling the tobacco product, cigarette papers, herbal smoking product or cigarette papers that the customer may have been born on or after 1 January 2009 (or such earlier date as may be specified in the policy);
(b) in relation to a vaping product business, is a policy that steps are to be taken to establish the age of a person attempting to buy a vaping product on the premises (the “customer”) if it appears to the person selling the vaping product that the customer may be under the age of 25 (or such older age as may be specified in the policy).
(5) In relation to times before the end of 2033, the reference in subsection (4)(a) to the customer being born on or after 1 January 2009 (or such earlier date as may be specified in the policy) has effect as a reference to the customer being under the age of 25 (or such older age as may be specified in the policy).
(6) The appropriate national authority may by regulations amend the age specified in subsection (3) or (4)(b).
(7) The appropriate national authority may publish guidance on matters relating to age verification policies, including, in particular, guidance about—
(a) steps that should be taken to establish a customer’s age,
(b) documents that may be shown to the person selling a tobacco product, cigarette papers, herbal smoking product or a vaping product as evidence of a customer’s age,
(c) training that should be undertaken by the person selling the tobacco product, cigarette papers, herbal smoking product or vaping product,
(d) the form and content of notices that should be displayed in the premises,
(e) the form and content of records that should be maintained in relation to an age verification policy.
(8) A person who carries on a tobacco, herbal smoking product or vaping product business must have regard to guidance published under subsection (7) when operating an age verification policy.
(9) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (1) is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 2 on the standard scale.
(10) Regulations under subsection (6) are subject to the affirmative resolution procedure.
(11) In this section—
“the appropriate national authority” means—
(a) in relation to England, the Secretary of State, and
(b) in relation to Wales, the Welsh Ministers,
“herbcal smoking product business” means a business involving the sale of herbal smoking products by retail,
“the specified date” is 1 January 2027,
“tobacco business” means a business involving the sale of tobacco products by retail,
“tobacco, herbal smoking product or vaping product business” means a business which involves any one or more of the following—
(a) a tobacco business,
(b) a herbal smoking product business, or
(c) a vaping product business,
“vaping product business” means a business involving the sale of vaping products by retail.”
This new clause introduces a requirement on tobacco, herbal smoking or vaping product businesses to operate an age verification policy covering steps to be taken to establish the age of persons attempting to buy tobacco, herbal smoking or vaping products, or cigarette papers. It reflects provisions in place in Scotland.
Bob Blackman
I rise to support the amendment and new clause tabled in my name. I will save the Committee time and will not go through the amendment in detail, because obviously colleagues have it in front of them. The key point is that the new clause would introduce a requirement on tobacco, herbal smoking or vaping product businesses to operate an age verification policy, covering steps to be taken to establish the age of persons attempting to buy tobacco, herbal smoking or vaping products or cigarette papers. It reflects that which is already in place in Scotland, where mandatory age verification has been a legal requirement for tobacco and vapes since 2017. A survey of independent UK tobacco retailers for Action on Smoking and Health in 2022 found that 83% supported the introduction of mandatory age verification for anyone aged under 25, with only 5% opposing it, and 91% supported it in Scotland, where it is already in force, with only 4% opposed to it.
I think we should take a lead from our colleagues in Scotland on this particular issue. The Scottish legislation is supported by guidance from the Scottish Government and the Government worked with trade bodies to ensure that retailers understood it. The Scottish legislation provides a legal underpinning to the voluntary Challenge 25 scheme, which operates in the rest of the United Kingdom. A voluntary scheme such as Challenge 25 is by definition inconsistent in its application, leaving some customers unsure about whether they will need to provide proof of age. Seeking verification for anyone who looks under 25 is in line with the legislation for alcohol and is supported by retailers and by the Association of Convenience Stores.
One of the key challenges we face in this Bill is that of workers in retail units challenging people about whether they are old enough to buy such products. The new clause would make it clear that they have a requirement to do so, which would be a good defence for them when they are challenged by their customers.
As the explanatory notes to the Tobacco and Vapes Bill set out, the Bill updates the Scottish legislation to ensure that age verification is consistently and appropriately applied in line with the new age of sale restrictions for tobacco products, herbal smoking products and cigarette papers. Ensuring consistency in the application of age verification is just as important for the other nations of the United Kingdom as it is for Scotland. Why should the Scots have this and not the rest of the United Kingdom?
Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way when he was making such a compelling argument. I am also very grateful to hear him speaking so positively of the Scottish Government. He is almost doing my job for me, so I will not seek to speak on the amendment. I want to make it clear to him that I will not support the amendment and new clause purely because they do not impact on Scotland. That says absolutely nothing about my interest in the principles of what he is setting out.
Bob Blackman
I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention. I am always willing to praise people who do the right thing. Unfortunately the SNP Government do not always do the right thing, as many of us know.
Extending the requirements for Scotland to the rest of the United Kingdom is supported by the vast majority of the general public and of retailers surveyed by ASH in 2024. To quote John McClurey, a retired tobacco retailer from Newcastle who, during his 39 years as a small shop owner, successfully implemented the increase in the age of sale from 16 to 18, putting tobacco out of sight in his shops and introducing standardised packaging of tobacco products:
“Like the communities they serve, retailers support creating a smokefree generation by raising the age of sale one year every year from 2027 onwards. However, I know from experience it will be easier for retailers to implement if age verification was required from anyone trying to buy tobacco who appeared to be underage. This won’t apply to existing adult social smokers only to those who look as though they were born after 2008. It’s popular with the public as well as with retailers and it will be a legal requirement in Scotland, so why not the whole of the UK?”
Preet Kaur Gill
I thank the hon. Gentleman for setting out the case for his amendment. We have already debated clause 79 to some extent, and I raised my concerns that we were not introducing regulations to close the loophole on the free distribution of vapes to under-18s sooner.
On new clause 6 and amendment 24 I recognise the point that the hon. Gentleman is making, which is that a mandatory age verification policy has been in force in Scotland for anyone looking under 25 since 2017. My understanding is that that is working well and, indeed, we also have Challenge 25 here in England and in Wales, although not on a legislative footing. The policy of providing a buffer can only help to ensure that those who are under-age, but who look over-age, are caught and are asked for ID—provided everyone knows where they stand and the Challenge 25 policy is well advertised.
As we have already discussed, the view taken in the design of these regulations is to put the responsibility for age of sale restrictions with the retailer, rather than the customer. The question the hon. Gentleman is raising is whether to make carrying ID effectively mandatory for customers buying cigarettes or vapes. I have a few concerns about that that I would like to raise. First, quite rightly, in order to be consistent with the rest of the regulations, his amendments put the responsibility for such a policy on the retailers. However, the effect of the policy would be to require customers to carry ID in order to buy these products if they were under a certain age. There does seem to be a bit of a disjunct, as that risks legislating twice for the responsibility to make sure that retailers do not sell to people who are under-age. Does this not suggest that the penalties for breaching the age of sale legislation need to be stronger in order to incentivise retailers to put robust policies in place?
I am slightly concerned that the policy will also remove flexibility when it comes to, for example, shop workers in local corner shops, who know their customers. Would they not end up having to ask people for ID every time, even when they already know they are over-age? Secondly, I just want to ask how the hon. Member envisages this working in the longer term, given that the age of sale for tobacco will rise every year? How will the Challenge 25 buffer be set accordingly? As it stands in his proposals, it would run out in 2033.
My other question is for the Minister. Presumably there has been a conscious decision to not align with the Scottish law on this subject. Can she explain why that decision was taken, on balance, when consistency in the law across Great Britain would surely be beneficial? Moreover, can I ask whether she has discussed this with Ministers in Wales? Once again, I thank the hon. Member for Harrow East for tabling the amendment and I will be interested in the responses to the questions that I have raised.
Bob Blackman
One of the clear concerns expressed by retailers—not necessarily the owners of shops but the staff who work in them and sell the products—is that if they can turn round to customers and say, “Look, it’s the law. I’ve got to ask you for your age verification. It is not something I can choose not to do; I have to do it,” that would strengthen their position. It would prevent arguments when they say, “I think you look under 25,” or “I think you look under 21.” That would strengthen their arm and make sure they abide by the law.
Dame Andrea Leadsom
As I say, I have a lot of sympathy for my hon. Friend’s point of view, but he will appreciate that Challenge 25 has been in place for a good long time, and it works reasonably well. It is well understood right across the country, and therefore the Government’s position is that it is not necessary to move to mandatory age verification.
I can also reassure my hon. Friend that we are investing £15 million a year in national anti-smoking campaigns, which will help explain the legal changes that the smoke-free generation policy implements. They will also prepare the public and retailers for those changes. For those reasons, I ask my hon. Friend to withdraw the amendment and the new clause.
Bob Blackman
Given the Minister’s answer, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 79 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 80
Transitional provision
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Dame Andrea Leadsom
The clause provides a power to make transitional or saving provisions. Transitional provisions address how existing legislation will be phased out or replaced by new legislation, and saving provisions preserve certain rights, obligations or legal consequences from existing statute. Welsh Ministers can make transitional or saving provision relating to the coming into force of clause 27 and schedule 1, which relate to the handing over of tobacco to under-age people in Wales. Scottish Ministers can make transitional or saving provision in relation to part 2. The Department of Health in Northern Ireland can make transitional or saving provision in relation to part 3, and the Secretary of State can make transitional or saving provision in relation to any measures or part that has not been mentioned. This is a standard provision, and I commend the clause to the Committee.
Bob Blackman
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
The clause stands in my name and the names of other hon. Members. Clearly, its concern is consultation on proposals for the regulation of profits from big tobacco —a recommendation of the all-party parliamentary group and of Javed Khan’s excellent report. The provision is designed to look at the profits of big tobacco, but big tobacco would not be allowed to pass on any calculated levy to its end customers. At the moment, it makes a veritable fortune every single year from selling its products. The new clause would limit big tobacco’s profits and, in doing so, its ability to market its products, but there would be no impact on, for example, tobacco taxation. My right hon. Friend the Minister might be concerned that the measure might delay the Bill, but the clear intention is to give the Secretary of State the power to conduct such a consultation; it would not prevent the Bill from going on to the statute book or from being enacted.
There has been a lot of debate over this issue for a long time. The Treasury appears to decline to do anything in this regard for some reason, but in my view, and that of the all-party parliamentary group, it is clear that this consultation could be done. The money raised from any such regulation could be directed at the national health service for smoking cessation services and to combat the effects of tobacco and other products, ensuring that people who wanted to quit could be assisted to quit.
I would welcome the Minister’s views. I do not want in any shape or form to impede the progress of this legislation, but I do want to get on record that I will continue to press for this provision, even if it is not agreed today, because I think it will bring into the health service much-needed money from big tobacco to help combat the impact of its products.
Preet Kaur Gill
I thank the hon. Member for Harrow East for raising the issue. As we know, separately from the Bill the Government are also introducing a one-off increase to tobacco duty as well as a vaping excise duty. I know that similar proposals to this one have been raised with the Government in the past, through the great work of the APPG on smoking and health. Previous Ministers expressed concerns that the proposals as previously drafted would serve to make tobacco companies pass on the cost to consumers in the shops. Undoubtedly, none of us wants any policies introduced that would come at the expense of consumers but miss their target: the tobacco giants. When it comes to addiction, we know that our most deprived communities are most likely to smoke. I am conscious of making their lives any more difficult. That said, I am certainly no proponent of any policy that would make tobacco cheap and easily available, and indeed it was a Labour Government who brought in a specific tobacco duty in the 1970s in the first place.
I understand that the revised proposal includes provisions to ensure that the Government can raise additional revenue from the enormous profits of tobacco producers, while ensuring the costs are not passed on. It is a complicated proposal that would require a team of officials within the Department of Health and Social Care to conduct market analysis, and for a tax to be set at a rate to hit those profits while regulating the prices in shops. Undoubtedly, something with as many moving parts as that would require thorough analysis and consultation, and I recognise that that is what the clause seeks to do. Given the existing levers we have available to us in tobacco duty and the focus we are trying to put on delivering a smoke-free future, I am reluctant to introduce something to the statute book that would distract from that priority. Through the Bill, there is already much consultation to be getting on with: on vapes, flavours, packaging and much more besides. I congratulate the hon. Member and the APPG on their excellent work, but this is not our priority at present.
Bob Blackman
If I may, my right hon. Friend must have smoked for only a brief period because she certainly does not look old. Most of what she said was about the end customer and the cost to the end customer. Every time the Government raise tobacco duty, that makes the price for the end customer more expensive. What we are talking about is a levy on the profits of the big tobacco companies, which they would not be allowed to pass on to the end customer by increasing the price. That reduces their profit and potential to inflict more damage on the health of the country—that is what we are looking at. It is estimated that £700 million could be raised through such a levy. Of course, that would be only a dent in their profits, frankly, but it could be directed towards public health measures. Surely that is something that my right hon. Friend will want to look at—if not today, because obviously we do not want to add to the complexity of the Bill, then in the future.
Dame Andrea Leadsom
I assure my hon. Friend that I am very taken with that proposal—I very much like it—but I make the point to all hon. Members that this is just not the appropriate place for it. As a matter of fact, as he will know, the Treasury can consult on and impose a tobacco levy at any point; it is not necessary to include powers in the Bill. As I have been saying, it would be complicated and would require consultation, and it could take several years to materialise. Our preference for the time being is to continue with high tobacco taxation and excise as the best means and most efficient process to generate finances that can be put back into public services. The Department of Health and Social Care obviously liaises closely with the Treasury on its plans. I have a lot of sympathy for my hon. Friend’s proposal, but I ask him to not press it to a vote on this occasion.
Bob Blackman
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
New Clause 3
Notification fees
“The Secretary of State may by regulations vary notification fees for novel tobacco, vaping and other nicotine products in order to include costs of enforcement and testing.”—(Bob Blackman.)
This new clause would enable the Secretary of State to vary the level of notification fees collected by the competent authorities in order that fees may be used to cover the costs of enforcement including product testing.
Brought up, and read the First time.
Bob Blackman
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
It is my show this afternoon! New clause 3 looks at the notification fees collected by the authorities, so that fees can be used to cover the costs of enforcement, including product testing. It would enable the Secretary of State to change those fees by regulation, and to look at what big tobacco and the vaping industry are doing to introduce novel products.
We have talked throughout the Committee about the ability of tobacco and vaping companies to vary their products considerably. We are of course trying to ensure that we capture everything we can so that we future-proof the legislation. New clause 3 would future-proof elements of the notification fees, raise some money and act as a barrier, frankly, to companies trying to flex their products to avoid the whole point of the legislation, which is to create a smoke-free generation and prevent young people from starting to vape. The Committee has already heard about the attitude and approaches being taken, particularly now by vaping companies, to market their products. The new clause would give power to the Secretary of State to do something about it by preventing those companies from bringing products in that no one wants to see on the market.
Preet Kaur Gill
The new clause relates to the testing of nicotine products and seeks to allow notification fees to be used for more than just the administration of that scheme but a wider, more comprehensive regulatory process, which we have supported. We have discussed clauses 71 to 74 on modifying the notification scheme to include non-nicotine vapes and extend to other nicotine products. Will those clauses allow for the notification fees regulations, which set fees at £150, to be amended accordingly?
I commend the hon. Member for Harrow East, as ever, for his work. I must remark that I rather regret that we have scheduled a debate on funding a notification scheme to test products before agreeing on the merits of such a reformed scheme itself. I look forward to coming to that in detail with two of my new clauses shortly, but I note that I do not necessarily agree with the Member that it should be a Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency competence to conduct enforcement. My issue with this process has been how products are getting on to the market in the first place. I would not want to disrupt or diffuse responsibilities for cracking down on the very real issue of the widespread market in illicit vapes. I think that that should still primarily be a matter for trading standards on the ground. None the less, I commend the Member for tabling the new clause, and I hope that he will support our proposals on testing.
Dame Andrea Leadsom
I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East for bringing this discussion before the Committee. He has given the Bill a great deal of thought, and I am so grateful to him for that. His new clause seeks to change the level of fees for novel tobacco, vaping and other nicotine products, so that they can be used to pay for enforcement and testing costs as well. I support the ambition of the new clause but, as he will know, we already have the ability to test products and to take decisive enforcement action where and when illegality occurs. The notification system, as he will know, is not an enforcement tool and cannot currently be used as such. It is the responsibility of trading standards to ensure compliance of vaping products and to remove non-compliant—that is, illicit—vapes from the market.
To help to tackle illicit vapes, we announced new funding last year to set up an illicit vaping enforcement unit to gather intelligence and conduct market surveillance. This programme of work, led by National Trading Standards, is helping to stamp out criminal activity and disrupt illicit supply, and we have been testing products as part of it. As colleagues are aware, we also recently announced £30 million of new funding per year for enforcement agencies. This will crack down on illicit tobacco and under-age tobacco and vape sales to support the regulations put forward in the Bill. For those reasons, I hope that my hon. Friend will not push the new clause to a vote.
Bob Blackman
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
New Clause 7
Retail licence for sale of tobacco, vaping and nicotine products
“(1) The Health Act 2006 is amended as follows.
(2) After section 13 (Power to amend age for sale of tobacco etc.) insert—
“13A Retail licence for sale of tobacco, vaping and nicotine products
The Secretary of State may by regulations introduce a scheme in England to require a person to obtain a licence before selling tobacco, e-cigarettes, novel nicotine products and related goods.””—(Bob Blackman.)
This new clause would enable the Secretary of State to introduce by regulation schemes to require the licensing of sale of tobacco, vaping or nicotine products.
Brought up, and read the First time.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss new clause 8—Sale of tobacco, vaping and nicotine products—
“The Secretary of State may by regulations limit the places in England where tobacco, vaping or nicotine products are available for retail sale.”
This new clause enables the Secretary of State to limit by regulation where tobacco, vaping or nicotine products can legally be made available for sale.
Bob Blackman
There is a degree of repetition in this. New clauses 7 and 8 relate to where tobacco products are sold and the licensing of them. There is a genuine debate, in both the industry and the House, about whether we should have a licensing scheme for tobacco, vaping and other nicotine products. These two new clauses would allow the Secretary of State to introduce regulations both on a licensing scheme and to limit the products that would be made available for sale in particular premises. The whole purpose behind this provision would be to say that the individuals who are selling these products would have to apply for a licence. Presumably, after a consultation, there would be a licence fee. That would add to the ability of the enforcement agencies to know that these products were properly licensed and being sold from licensed premises.
There is of course the issue that this could limit the number of retailers that would be able to sell such products. One concern that I have in this regard is not so much on tobacco but on vaping. We have seen, up and down the country, the rapid growth of stores selling just vaping products. They have—without doubt, without question—been selling to younger people, and we are concerned about the rapid growth of those particular areas.
There has been quite considerable legislation limiting tobacco sales over the years. We can go back over the age of sale. We can talk about the advertising displays. We can talk about keeping the products literally behind shutters so that people have to ask for the products rather than their being openly and clearly available. The two new clauses would get us to a position whereby there would be a requirement for the proper regulation of those markets. I know that the intent behind the Bill is to create a smoke-free generation, but we are taking on the vaping issue as well. At this stage, we propose that, if such a scheme were to be introduced, the Secretary of State would need to consult on those issues. I do not intend to prevent the Bill from progressing, but the Secretary of State will need to consider these things, whether during the later stages of the Bill or subsequently.
Preet Kaur Gill
I do not have much to add, but note that when the Bill was introduced some in the tobacco industry lobbied MPs to include a licensing scheme for vapes only. It would be an egregious situation if we were to take a stronger stance on vapes than on tobacco, which is the real killer. I suspect they hoped for the inclusion of something like that primarily because it would slow the Bill down. I thank the hon. Member for Harrow East for tabling a more balanced new clause, which would introduce licensing schemes for tobacco products as well as for nicotine products and vapes.
I have some questions for the Minister. Will she set out why the Government have not opted to set up a licensing scheme for tobacco and vapes? We have a licensing scheme for alcohol in England and Wales, but the Government have never sought to extend it to tobacco, although it would help us to identify shops that sell the products and streamline our enforcement efforts. I appreciate that many of sanctions related to licensing that are often cited, such as the power to take a licence away, are perhaps a less strong argument in relation to this Bill, because we have restricted premises and restricted sales orders, but I am interested in the Minister’s views.
On illicit products, the Government have introduced a track and trace system for tobacco, which is a useful component in monitoring the flow and patterns in the trade in tobacco products around the country. Given the improved provisions for product IDs, which will come into effect for products entering the country when the new vaping excise duty is introduced, we remarked in Committee that this could be an opportunity to look at setting up something similar for nicotine and vaping products.
I fully appreciate the concern of the hon. Member for Harrow East that enforcement will be crucial to the Bill’s success, but my view is that our priority must be to make a success of the enforcement regime that the Bill introduces before considering the case for further regulation. There probably will be a case for further regulation in future.
Bob Blackman
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
New Clause 9
Prohibition of sponsorship: vaping substances containing nicotine
“(1) A person who is party to a sponsorship agreement is guilty of an offence if the purpose or effect of anything done as a result of the agreement is to promote a vaping substance containing nicotine in the United Kingdom.
(2) A sponsorship agreement is an agreement under which, in the course of business, a party to it makes a contribution towards something, whether the contribution is in money or takes any other form (for example, the provision of services or of contributions in kind).
(3) A person does not commit an offence under this section—
(a) where it is alleged that the purpose of what was done as a result of the agreement was to promote a vaping substance containing nicotine in the United Kingdom, if the person did not know, and had no reason to suspect, that that was its purpose, or
(b) where it is alleged that the effect of what was done as a result of the agreement was to promote a vaping substance containing nicotine in the United Kingdom, if the person could not reasonably have foreseen that that would be its effect.
(4) A person does not commit an offence under this section if he did not know and had no reason to suspect that the contribution referred to in subsection (2) was made in the course of business.
(5) This section comes into force on such day as the Secretary of State may by order appoint.
(6) The day specified may not be later than 1 June 2026.”—(Kirsten Oswald.)
Brought up, and read the First time.
Kirsten Oswald
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
As Members can see, new clause 9 seeks to stamp out the advertising of vape products in sports. We can all—or perhaps just those who spend more time than we should watching football—think back to days in the past when our favourite football teams ran about the park with cigarettes advertised on their shirts. We would find that quite unthinkable now; it would just be unacceptable. Similarly, we would find it unacceptable if our sports stadiums were named after tobacco companies or cigarette brands, but it is still possible—in fact, it is happening—that sports kits and sports grounds are sponsored by vape companies. I cannot think that should be acceptable when we look at the comparators, and I do not think sports is an appropriate place for vape advertising.
In the evidence sessions, experts told us about the deeply challenging impact on young people of vapes and vaping. We know that it impacts on their education as well as on their health. We heard this morning in the recent statistics from ASH that a very significant proportion of our young people are vaping. We need to deal with that. The vast majority of those young people have never been smokers, so this is not vaping for the purposes of smoking cessation, but a new addiction that has taken hold. It is our responsibility to try to deal with that. We will have to deal with it while being aware of the incredible and fast-moving marketing and product development that the industry has shown it is all too capable of bringing to bear. We also heard from the chief medical officers, who were uniformly keen that sports should be a positive influence. Anyone can go back and read the transcripts to see how they variously described it, but that was certainly the order of the day.
Smoking cessation is important, and smoking cessation and sport are things that can be positively connected, but that is very much not what is happening. We need to be clear that young people are seeing sports and vaping together, when we really should be taking steps to prevent young people who have never smoked from seeing vaping as something they may want to do. I have heard others say that now is not the time to do this—that we should not use this Bill. I have to say that yes, this is absolutely the time for us to do it. If it is not this Bill, then I really begin to wonder what on earth would be the vehicle for us to take this step. This is the time.
People may be fed up of me speaking about this—I am almost fed up of me speaking about this. I have spoken about this for years, on and on and on, but I am going to keep speaking about it until it is fixed. I want the Committee to think carefully about it. I am sure Committee members may have noticed that, through whatever stroke of good luck, I have had the first question in the last two Prime Minister’s questions, and I have asked the Prime Minister to think very carefully about this issue. It is something that is very important for all of us in this place to do. I hope we are now getting to the point where we agree that it is time for us to act, that this is the vehicle where action is best placed and that we should put a stop to vape advertising in sports, once and for all.
Bob Blackman
I thank the hon. Lady for tabling the new clause. We will come to further new clauses that deal with advertising for vaping products. We are clearly now in the position whereby if anyone suggested that football teams should have tobacco advertising on their shirts, they would be laughed out of court. That is equally true in all the other circumstances that the hon. Lady described.
I have a lot of sympathy with this proposal, but I am slightly concerned that it is limited to particular sporting events. In my view, we need a comprehensive ban on the promotion of vaping products. When the chief medical officer gave evidence to the Committee, he rightly said that if you smoke, it is safer to vape, but do not take up vaping. We should not be allowing vaping companies to advertise their wares, particularly to younger people. As I said this morning, 7.6% of young people aged 11 to 17 are regularly vaping. That is a serious concern, because they will be addicted to nicotine and will probably have to escalate their nicotine demand as time goes on.
My concern is that the new clause does not go far enough. The hon. Lady has raised the issue on several occasions, and is rightly banging the drum. I agree with her: it is a disgrace. I think I am right in saying that Blackburn Rovers football club just agreed a sponsorship deal for their shirts with a vaping product, which is a great shame, but it has chosen to do that.
The chief medical officer also said that, right now, the vaping industry does not have a product that doctors could prescribe to help people to quit smoking. That is a challenge for the industry. If it is serious about encouraging people to quit smoking, it needs to develop a product that doctors can prescribe and help people to quit smoking. If it is not going to develop that product, that demonstrates that all it is trying to do is to hook people on to nicotine.
Kirsten Oswald
The hon. Gentleman is generous in taking my interventions. I am not entirely sure that these two things are totally connected. He is quite right that the vaping industry has questions to answer, but I do not think that has anything at all to do with whether it should be okay to advertise vaping companies and vaping products on football shirts, on sports stadiums or in any other way that is proximate to sport. We need to be clear that this practice specifically needs to be stamped out. On the questions the vaping industry has to answer, I am sure that the hon. Gentleman and I have the same ones; we can crack on and get them answered, but let us not not do this.
Bob Blackman
I have a lot of sympathy with what the hon. Lady asks for. I ask my right hon. Friend the Minister, in dealing with this new clause and the other new clauses about advertising, to go away and come up with a comprehensive series of amendments that will ban advertising for vaping products in their entirety—not just in sports stadiums and not just on sports shirts, but comprehensively, right across the piece. We can then all support that and make sure we deliver it in the Bill.
Preet Kaur Gill
I thank the hon. Member for East Renfrewshire for tabling the new clause. We absolutely share her concern: we must ensure that children are not exposed to marketing and branding that encourages them to vape. I echo the comments of the chief medical officer: if you do not smoke, do not vape. These are not products for children, and we are determined to crack down on companies trying to addict a new generation to nicotine. The principle that the hon. Lady has raised is really important, which is exactly why the previous Labour Government legislated to end sponsorship by tobacco companies.
Although sponsorship for vapes is not prohibited outright, as it is for tobacco, there are clear restrictions on how vapes and nicotine products can be marketed at and advertised to children. For example, the 2016 regulations prohibit e-cigarette product placement or any sponsorship promoting e-cigarettes on radio and TV programmes, where they are most likely to be widely seen. Most crucially, they ban ads for nicotine-containing vapes from most online media, including social media. The very limited exception to that is factual, not promotional, claims on companies’ own websites.
Why has the Minister not aligned the legislation in this respect with the extension of other regulations that we have discussed in Committee? Elsewhere, non-nicotine vapes and other nicotine products are essentially treated under the same regulations as those that affect nicotine vapes.
I again thank the hon. Member for East Renfrewshire for sharing her concerns, which I fully appreciate. I hope the Minister takes this proposal away and looks at it more closely. The restrictions on broadcast sponsorship aside, I would have expected her to be able to share more comprehensive data from the regulators showing what children are being exposed to and where. Will she address that head on and write to us with more detail if she needs to? In the meantime, my greatest concern remains promotions in store and on social media.
Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Fifth sitting)
Bob Blackman ExcerptsThursday 9th May 2024
(6 months, 2 weeks ago)
Public Bill CommitteesRead Full debate Tobacco and Vapes Bill 2023-24 View all Tobacco and Vapes Bill 2023-24 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 9 May 2024 - (9 May 2024)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Dame Andrea Leadsom)
Clauses 1, 37 and 48 change the age of sale for tobacco products, herbal smoking products and cigarette papers so that no one born on or after 1 January 2009 will legally be sold those products in England and Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland, respectively. That replaces the existing legislation, which sets the age of sale at 18 years old. The clauses are core to the ambition of being the first country in the world to create a smoke-free generation, which is supported by the public, including a majority of retailers: nearly 70% of people support our plan to create a smoke-free generation. But why is it necessary?
First, this new age of sale will save tens of thousands of lives. Tobacco is devastating for the health of smokers. It is the single biggest preventable cause of death, responsible for about 80,000 deaths in the UK each year. Smoking causes one in four cancer deaths, including 70% of lung cancer cases. It is not just those who smoke who experience the harms; second-hand smoke also causes enormous harm to children, through no choice of their own.
There is no safe age to smoke. We know that 75% of smokers would never have started if they had the choice again, and those who start smoking as a young adult lose an average of 10 years of life expectancy. As we heard from the chief medical officer for England in his oral evidence session, individual smokers should never be blamed for the situation they are in. An incredibly wealthy and sophisticated marketing industry deliberately addicted them to something, at the earliest age it could get away with, and they have had their choice removed.
Secondly, this measure will boost our economy. Each year, smoking costs our economy a minimum of £17 billion, which is far more than the £10 billion income per year that the Treasury receives from taxes on tobacco products. That is equivalent to 6.9p in every £1 of income tax received. Therefore, reducing the prevalence of smoking will reduce these costs, helping our economy to become more productive.
On that note, reducing smoking will also cut the burden on the NHS. As Sir Stephen Powis outlined in his oral evidence, smoking impacts the NHS at all levels. Almost every minute of every day, someone is admitted to hospital with a smoking-related disease and over 100 GP appointments every hour are because of smoking. Reducing this burden will allow us to invest more in vital care, focus on major conditions and cut waiting lists.
Thanks to years of decisive Government action and stop-smoking support, smoking rates are coming down, but we want to build a brighter future for our children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren. I know that there are concerns about this policy, which were discussed at length on Second Reading. I want to reassure all colleagues that this policy is not about taking away people’s rights. There is no liberty in addiction and nicotine robs people of their freedom to choose.
I also urge all members of the Committee not to be taken in by the tobacco industry’s claims that the black market for tobacco products will boom. Before the legal smoking age was increased from 16 to 18, the tobacco industry sang from that same hymn sheet, but the facts drowned them out. The number of illicit cigarettes consumed actually fell by 25%, and smoking rates for 16 and 17-year-olds dropped by almost a third. In fact, consumption of illegal tobacco has plummeted from 17 billion cigarettes in 2000-01 to 3 billion cigarettes in 2022-2023.
To crack down on illicit tobacco and under-age tobacco and vape sales, we are putting an extra £30 million of new funding per year over five years into our enforcement agencies and we are working closely with enforcement colleagues to ensure that these measures are successfully implemented. And we have not forgotten current smokers. The measures in the Bill are accompanied by a suite of measures to support current smokers to quit. They include nearly doubling the funding for local stop-smoking services with an additional £70 million each year over the next five years, providing a new financial incentives programme to support pregnant women and their partners to quit, and providing additional funding for stop-smoking campaigns and to ensure that retailers and the public understand the changes in the law.
On Second Reading, there were also discussions about what products were in scope of the new restrictions. Let me clarify matters by saying that the new age of sale restrictions will apply to all tobacco products, including tobacco that is smoked, smokeless or chewed. When it is smoked, tobacco kills up to two thirds of its long-term users, and all smoked tobacco, including in shisha and cigars, is harmful. There is also clear evidence of the toxicity of heated tobacco in laboratory studies; the aerosol generated by heated tobacco contains carcinogens. I know that some of our colleagues have championed heated tobacco products as a smoking quit aid, but there are less harmful tobacco-free products that can support people to quit smoking.
Tobacco products such as paan, betel quid and chewing tobacco are also covered by the Bill. Tobacco that is not smoked is not a safe way to use tobacco. Using smokeless tobacco increases the risk of both mouth cancer and oesophageal cancer.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
I thank my right hon. Friend for the speech she is making and of course I absolutely support all the measures in the Bill. One concern, which I think was raised on Second Reading, about paan and chewing tobacco is that they are currently not specified very clearly in the Bill. Is she planning to introduce any further measures, either in Committee or in regulation, to address this concern? One of the problems is that at the moment those products are freely sold in a range of different environments.
Dame Andrea Leadsom
First, I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for his very long-standing campaign to stamp out nicotine and tobacco. He is absolutely right that we will need to make it very clear to members of the public, retailers and health organisations our intention to stamp out all tobacco products, because they are all unsuitable for our smoke-free generation. I will make a note of his concern, take it away and make sure that the legislation makes things as clear as it possibly can.
The Bill also applies to cigarette papers, as do current age of sale restrictions. Their bleaches and dyes add to the volume of smoke and the range of toxicants in the smoke, contributing additional risks to smokers. Likewise, herbal cigarettes are included in the legislation, as they are harmful to health. Although their smoke does not contain nicotine or tobacco, it does contain cancer-causing chemicals, tar and carbon monoxide similar to a tobacco cigarette.
I will briefly mention clause 41, which amends the Scottish legislation to include herbal smoking products under provisions for age of sale, age verification policy, sales by under-18s, proxy purchasing and vending machines. With their harms outlined above, it is right that herbal smoking products be included within the current and future tobacco control legislation. By extending this legislation, Scotland will be aligned with the other UK nations. This measure will also support the effective implementation and enforcement of the Bill by providing consistency for enforcement officers, industry, retailers and consumers across the UK.
To complement the smoke-free generation policy, we are also bringing forward clause 2, which makes it an offence for someone over the age of 18 to purchase tobacco products, herbal smoking products or cigarette papers on behalf of someone born on or after 1 January 2009 in England and Wales; this is known as proxy purchasing. Proxy purchasing of these products by an adult for someone under age is already prohibited; the clause makes it an offence for any adult to buy these products for someone in the smoke-free generation—that is, born on or after 1 January 2009. That means someone might be caught by the offence if they are also too young to be sold the products themselves, but we did not want to overcomplicate the application of this offence.
We hope this measure will send a clear message to stop people trying to buy products for people under the age of sale. Proxy purchasing in Scotland and Northern Ireland will also be updated through clauses 37 and 48 to align with the new age of sale. These provisions are essential to ensure there are no loopholes in the age of sale legislation, and build on what we have found to work in the current age of sale legislation.
Finally, I present clause 49 to the Committee. The clause amends a provision in the Health and Personal Social Services (Northern Ireland) Order 1978 to provide the Department of Health in Northern Ireland with the power to amend the definition of “sale” to mean “sale by retail”. If the power is used, only sales from a retailer to a customer will be caught by the tobacco age of sale offence, which will therefore not include business to business sales, such as sales between a wholesaler and a retailer. This measure would bring the type of sales caught by the tobacco age of sale offence in Northern Ireland in line with those in England, Wales and Scotland. Fundamentally, the clauses included in this group are essential to implementing the smoke-free generation policy.
There is both strong cross-party and cross-nation support for these measures. It is clear that we all acknowledge the need to protect future generations from the harms of smoking. No one wants their children to ever start smoking. In England alone, it could prevent almost half a million cases of heart disease, stroke, lung cancer and other deadly diseases by the turn of the century, increasing thousands of people’s quality of life and reducing pressures on our NHS. Thanks to the collaborative work we have undertaken with the devolved Administrations, we have produced a Bill that will save lives right across the United Kingdom. I therefore commend these clauses to the Committee.
Preet Kaur Gill
I have just said that after the smoking ban came into effect, there were 1,200 fewer hospital admissions for heart attacks. We saw a drop in people smoking—the data from The BMJ is already out there. By working towards a smoke-free future by progressively raising the age of sale, I hope that this Parliament can leave a similar legacy.
I turn to clause 1 and its equivalents for the devolved nations—probably the most important clauses in the Bill. Clause 1 of course changes the age of sale for tobacco products from 18 to a set date of 1 January 2009, meaning that anyone born on or after that date will never be able to legally buy cigarettes. It will progressively raise the age of sale by one year every year, so that the generation who are 15 now will—we hope—never smoke.
When the shadow Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford North (Wes Streeting), proposed the measure in January 2023, it was because we know that it will take fresh, radical thinking on public health to take the pressure off the NHS and get our ambition for a smoke-free future back on track. The rationale for the progressive approach, compared with what some MPs have argued for in raising the age of sale to 21, is that it is a radical but realistic way of phasing out tobacco over time. It means that no one loses a right they already have, but it does not limit its ambition to young people —there is no safe age to smoke.
I hope that a lead-in time of three years will be enough for us to get support to those under-18s who already smoke, so they are not affected by the time the legislation comes in. Will the Minister say whether she is planning a targeted campaign to ensure that we reach those young people, perhaps by working through schools? Almost two thirds of long-term smokers began smoking before they were 18. University College London has calculated that every day around 350 young adults aged 18 to 25 start smoking regularly, risking being trapped in a lifetime of addiction and premature death. The vast majority of smokers and ex-smokers—85%—regret ever starting in the first place, but it is infamously difficult to quit. Stopping people from starting is the single best way of saving them from a lifetime of potentially deadly addiction.
I reject the suggestion that the legislation will be uniquely difficult to implement or enforce. Labour raised the age of sale in 2007, and that is well understood and widely enforced.
Shopkeepers are already used to enforcing age of sale legislation, and we have initiatives like Challenge 25, so it would not be until 2034 that we enter the uncharted territory of routinely checking the age of customers who look 26 years old. I would expect by then that we would already be beginning to see a considerable reduction in the number of people still smoking under that age, but even then, arguably this legislation makes implementation easier: instead of having to ask for someone’s ID to compare their birth date against the current date, which involves doing maths in one’s head, it will be as simple as checking against one static date every time. I do not want to insult the intelligence of anyone working in retail, but that has formed part of the arguments of some of the Bill’s opponents, so I really want to call that out.
As for the right to feel protected and confident in their jobs, there is no doubt that violence against shop workers has risen in recent years, but that is why we in the Opposition have long campaigned for violence against shop workers to be a separate criminal offence. As with much recent legislation, I am glad that the Government have seen sense and followed Labour’s lead on that, too.
I know that some libertarian Conservative MPs have a philosophical objection to this legislation—the Business and Trade Secretary is one—but let us be honest: if we had known the social, public health and economic harms of smoking that we now know, would we not have legislated in similar terms long ago? Let us be clear: addiction is not freedom. The impact of second-hand smoke on the children of smokers is not freedom. It is certainly no freedom if, as is the case for two thirds of long-term smokers, one’s life is cut short as a result of smoking. It should be a source of pride if, from having the highest smoking rates in the world, we can successfully introduce genuinely world-leading legislation to phase out tobacco for good.
I want to make some brief remarks on other clauses. I have no substantial concerns about clause 2. For the Bill to work, it cannot be possible for adults over the legal age to buy tobacco on behalf of others who cannot buy it. It is obviously right that the clause avoids criminalising children by specifying that it applies to over-18s in its alignment with the commencement date in 2027. I see no issue with that.
I do, however, have questions about implementation. We have spoken a lot about physical retailers but less about online retailers. This is undoubtedly an enforcement challenge and I wonder what the Minister can say on that. In response to the consultation, the Government said that they were exploring how to enhance online age verification so that young people under the legal age cannot buy age-restricted products online. What progress have the Government made since the consultation response was published in February?
On clause 37, I want to pick up on the specifics of the Scottish age verification policy. Will the Minister explain the Government’s view on introducing additional requirements for retailers to establish an age-of-sale policy in the rest of the United Kingdom, in addition to the requirements in clause 1? I understand that the Bill would require the existing Challenge 25 policy to stay in effect in Scotland with legal force until the end of 2033, at which point over-25s will be within the legislation’s scope and then 1 January 2009 would take precedence again.
Finally, on clause 41, we support the amendment to Scottish regulations to include herbal cigarettes. Herbal cigarettes may not include tobacco or nicotine, but they are still harmful to health. Their smoke still contains cancer-causing chemicals, tar and carbon monoxide, similar to a tobacco cigarette. I am glad to see an alignment of approach across the UK nations on the point that no smoking product should be left out of the Bill’s scope. We also have no problem with the inclusion of clauses 48 and 49 to change tobacco control laws in Northern Ireland to align with the approach that we have discussed.
I reiterate that the Opposition support these clauses and we will reject attempts to amend them that would water them down. I would be grateful if the Minister responded to my questions.
Bob Blackman
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dame Siobhain. I rise to support the proposals outlined by the Minister. It came as quite a shock that one of the recommendations of the Khan review was that the age-of-sale be raised by a year every year. We on the all-party group on smoking and health —I declare my interest—thought that we would end up simply raising the age from 18 to 21, but I am delighted that we have moved from that position to one of literally creating a smoke-free generation.
The key point will always be free choice—the free choice that is made is to smoke that first cigarette; after that, the individual is addicted. To colleagues of mine who may be listening or considering this as an issue of freedom of choice, I say that one only makes one choice. After that, there is no choice because one is addicted and therefore required to continue to fuel that addiction. It is vital that we create this smoke-free generation.
One of the fundamental issues is enforcement rules and premises—I know we will come to that, so I will not pre-judge it, but this will be key. One of my concerns —I ask the Minister to think about this—is what will happen about duty-free sales and provisions that, at the moment, are outside the scope of the Bill. There will be temptations for young people on trips abroad to buy cigarettes, either abroad or at duty-free, and bring them back, or for others to do so and provide them to young people. Clearly, we would all want that to be an offence, but as I read the Bill, the provisions do not cover that. We need to think about strengthening the legislation in that area.
I do not want to go on for a long time; I am delighted with the Bill. I have been campaigning for this sort of action for many years, so it is a delight to see. We need to get it on the statute book as fast as possible.
Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op)
It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Dame Siobhan. Let me open by welcoming the Bill. I think the Government have taken a brave and bold step in introducing such a significant public health intervention. I worked in respiratory medicine for 20 years, and I saw the devastating impact of smoking on so many of my patients.
We must remember that the industry exists in order to ensure that its customers become addicted to their product: nicotine. It profits as a result, as we learned in the evidence sessions, from some of the poorest communities in our country. The Bill will address not only that gross inequality, but the behaviours of the industry and, in particular, it will ensure that we have a healthier future going forward. The tobacco-free generation measures will have such an impact on young people as they grow up.
We also need to ensure that the public health messages are really driven home. As colleagues have said, there is no liberty once someone has started smoking. There is no liberation because they become enslaved to addiction—to the highly addictive product, nicotine. It is therefore important that the Bill is passed to give that liberty to so many people who regret having commenced the journey of smoking. We need to remind everybody that once they start smoking, it is incredibly difficult to give up. Smoking is a product that kills two thirds of its customers. Therefore, the only people who benefit from smoking are the industry, which profits extensively from the misery of others.
I will certainly support the Bill through its passage, but I believe that there are areas where it can be strengthened. One, in particular, is advertising. We know that this pernicious industry has learned so well how to get around legislation at every turn. It has been incredibly difficult to ensure that the legislation encapsulates the safeguards needed to prevent the industry from doing that, but I do think that there are some loopholes in the Bill that need to be addressed around promotion, advertising, sponsorship and ensuring that retailers are supported in relation to age verification.
Simplifying things in the Bill will help everybody when it is fully implemented. We have Challenge 25; it is easily understood, and young people are used to showing their ID. Introducing that here would be a logical step in being able to see those restraints, and it will also mean that there is no variation in how shopkeepers will apply the law. It will take out inequality for their sake, too. I hope that the Minister reflects on that as we get to those points in the Bill.
Preet Kaur Gill
Clause 4 is another that re-enacts existing law that we support. The sale of unpackaged cigarettes is a practice used to short-circuit the enforcement of age of sale law and other regulations such as flavour bans, and only benefits the illicit trade.
Particularly now that the Government have introduced the track and trace system, packaging is useful in monitoring the flow and patterns in the trade in tobacco products around the country. However, it is notable that the clause opts to restate the law’s focus on cigarettes instead of other products. In 1991, the Government faced a lot of opposition from Members on their Back Benches when they proposed to include cigars in the definition, so can the Minister tell us why she has not considered extending the provisions and treating other tobacco products in the same way? Can she reassure me that trading standards has not found instances of, for example, cigars or hand-rolling tobacco being kept and sold unpackaged, and that that does not have the potential to be a loophole that will later need to be closed?
Bob Blackman
We have to consider the various tactics used by big tobacco. I campaigned long and hard for the standardised packaging of tobacco products, which was finally achieved, and one of my concerns then was the way that packaging is used to attract young people to start smoking. I support the provisions, but one concern might be that big tobacco will respond by reducing the number of cigarettes in a pack and selling them at a cheaper price. Will there be regulations to ensure that, for example, companies cannot sell them in single packs? We have to think about what these evil people will do to sell and push their product. Very simply, can we look at something to ensure that they cannot do that?
Rachael Maskell
I support the points that have already been made, but I will not repeat them, because they have been made eloquently.
Why is the fine in clause 4(2) only at level 3, whereas elsewhere in the legislation the fines are at level 4? We know that cigarettes being sold as single items, and packs being broken up and sold in that way, encourages people to smoke. We also know that they will be targeted at children and young people, as well as people in greater deprivation.
There are 14.5 million people in our country who are living in poverty, and there is a much higher prevalence of smoking in that population. The increase in the price of tobacco products has been a major determinant of how much people smoke and whether people smoke at all. It therefore seems perverse that the fine applied to breaking up cigarette packs is less than that applied elsewhere in the Bill, where there is a level 4 fine. Can the Minister explain the reasoning behind dropping the level of fine? Why is it not in line with the other measures in the Bill?
Dame Andrea Leadsom
Once again, I thank all hon. Members for their thoughtful and considered remarks —I really do appreciate them. Essentially, the questions are pretty much around the product notification and the availability of quit aids to under-18s. Hon. Members may not have spotted this, but the notification of vapes to the MHRA is something on which we are taking powers. There will be a further consultation on that point because it did not come under the scope of the original consultation. We will have the powers to require notification of vapes to the MHRA.
The other point that has been raised by a few colleagues is, “How do we help under-18s to stop smoking?” Under the MHRA, there is licensed nicotine replacement therapy, which is licensed for 12 to 18-year-olds. Of course, all under-18s can go to their local stop-smoking services.
To the point from the hon. Member for York Central about whether young people should be able to access vaping as a quit aid, my instinct would be, “No, absolutely not,” and I think that that would be her instinct also. However, I must slightly correct the record: it is certainly not the Government’s position that vaping is in any way safe; it is merely less harmful than smoking. I would reiterate that if you don’t smoke, don’t vape. And children should never vape, so they should not be turning to vaping, even as a quit aid. In my view, that would also be the thin end of the wedge, because people would simply say, “Well, I am only vaping because I am trying to stop smoking.” I cannot imagine that ever being a suitable way to help children to stop.
Bob Blackman
One issue that has been raised in the debate is non-nicotine vapes and the potential to get people on to vaping, followed by the escalation, presumably, to nicotine and then, potentially, as has been mentioned, to cigarettes. What action will my right hon. Friend take—although not necessarily in these clauses—to make sure that that escalation path cannot be followed?
Dame Andrea Leadsom
My hon. Friend raises an important point. The legislation covers non-nicotine vapes, and unfortunately, as has been pointed out, a number of illicit so-called non-nicotine vapes have up to 30% nicotine content, which has completely undermined the argument for those. Quite clearly, they are designed by the industry to get people hooked on the idea of vaping so that it can get people on to higher nicotine levels in due course. That is why the legislation covers non-nicotine vapes and all tobacco and vaping products.
Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixth sitting)
Bob Blackman ExcerptsThursday 9th May 2024
(6 months, 2 weeks ago)
Public Bill CommitteesRead Full debate Tobacco and Vapes Bill 2023-24 View all Tobacco and Vapes Bill 2023-24 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 9 May 2024 - (9 May 2024)
Rachael Maskell
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for making that point, which is certainly where I want to go with my speech. She is right: the industry will look at every single option to reformulate its products, including introducing nicotine pouches disguised with various flavours and colours—you name it, they will do it—to induce young people to engage with them. If we do not get ahead of the curve, the industry will be right there—I guarantee it.
We need to wise up to the tactics the industry has deployed over decades and recognise that, whether with pouches or something else further down the line, it is again on the move to sell its products in a reformulated way. I urge the Minister to look at whether this should be covered by secondary legislation—I know she is concerned about the amount of secondary legislation that will come through from the Bill—or in the Bill as vaping is.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
Does the hon. Lady not accept the counter-argument that putting things in the Bill means that we have to change primary legislation, but that by doing things via regulations, the Government can make changes in a speedy fashion and combat big tobacco’s fleetness of foot in bringing terribly addictive new products to the market?
Rachael Maskell
I am grateful to the hon. Member for that, and I agree that we want to be able to adapt as soon as the market does, but right now the industry is promoting nicotine pouches and we must ensure that we take the earliest opportunity to bring them into the scope of legislation, so that the industry does not just think, “Well, we’ve got six months now to promote our product.” Given the way the industry is behaving, this is a bit like a game of cat and mouse, and we need to do whatever we can to ensure that we are ahead of the curve, whether that is through primary or secondary legislation.
I ask the Minister to ensure that the regulations are brought forward expeditiously and that the first set—we may need further sets; I appreciate what the hon. Member for Harrow East says—is introduced in the shortest time possible. Can she tell the Committee what the timescale will be for that, so that we know how quickly these other products will be brought within the scope of the Bill, ensuring that young people are protected?
Dame Andrea Leadsom
My hon. Friend makes a good point, which I will take away and reflect on. We have obviously already aired the discussion about the benefit of taking powers as opposed to putting something in primary legislation, but she makes a good point and I will come back to her.
Bob Blackman
One of the challenges we are talking about is not only nicotine itself—we had medical evidence last week to suggest the damage it does to the body, let alone its delivery mechanisms—but the mixture of different routes by which it gets into the body. At the moment, evidence is emerging about the damage from the use of different accelerants to get nicotine into the body. Will the Minister consider what may need to be done about those particular types of chemicals and other methods that may need regulation to outlaw them, because of the damage that they do particularly to children and to all other vapers?
Dame Andrea Leadsom
My hon. Friend makes a really good point. We have heard about some of the heavy metals and other carcinogens in vapes. The Bill is so comprehensive in banning things such as cigarette papers, herbal cigarettes and so on precisely because of other things that people put into their lungs. As the chief medical officer for England said, it is fine to drink a glass of water but have you ever tried inhaling one? It is not such a pleasant experience. He made the point that although it might be perfectly safe to eat a non-toxic flavour, it could be very different to inhale it.
As we heard last week, the fact of the matter is that there simply is not yet the evidence to say what some of these products do to human beings when inhaled. It is absolutely right that we protect children from those effects, hence this Bill. I hope that one of the outcomes of this legislation will be that we get far more evidence via independent research into the potential harms of first-hand vaping and other consumption of nicotine as well as second-hand consumption, which I know a number of hon. Members are interested in. I am sure we will come back to that in due course.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 10 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 11
Displays of vaping and nicotine products
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Bob Blackman
I thank my right hon. Friend for explaining the nature of these various different measures. I think retailers will have a concern about, for example, where a manager or an errant individual breaches these rules and is therefore subject to action, what actions the retailer can then take to alleviate the challenge afterwards. For example, if the person is dismissed or is told they are no longer welcome on the premises, will that be sufficient, or will it have to be a case of serving a time before such premises can be brought back into action? Obviously, retailers will want to know what they must do to comply with not only the letter but the spirit of the law.
Dame Andrea Leadsom
My hon. Friend makes a really good point. It also justifies why this is particularly complicated to explain, let alone to take in. That is one of the reasons why there is a long lead-in period for that new regulation. There will be training for retail. We have discussed this with various industry bodies, and they support it and consider that there is enough time for them to get up to speed. Essentially, that strays into the issue of the quantum of fines. The idea is that it is effectively an on-the-spot fine; it is really, “Two strikes and you’re out.” If someone offends twice, they will end up with a restricted premises order, and if they offend again, they will get an unlimited fine. It is an appropriate escalation. At the starting point, there are a number of other fines that are of a similar quantum, where someone could potentially argue, “Well, I did not realise. I am new; I did not get the training; I was not here that day,” and then it is not such a painful fine. They would certainly learn their lesson, however, and after two offences it escalates very significantly.
Clause 56 amends the Tobacco Retailers Act (Northern Ireland) 2014 and introduces the power for the Department of Health in Northern Ireland to amend the definition of a tobacco, nicotine or non-nicotine vape offence for which a restricted premises order can be issued. That is the same provision made for England and Wales in clause 15. Clauses 15, in England and Wales, and 56, in Northern Ireland, are important to maintain the longevity of the legislation. They will ensure that enforcement action remains up to date to reflect any relevant new tobacco or vape products that come on to the market in future. I therefore commend the clauses to the Committee.
Preet Kaur Gill
Trading standards officers are experts in this area. They know what they are looking for in retail settings, they are experts in the legislation they have to enforce, and they do an important job in difficult circumstances. As we heard in evidence, trading standards officers enforce dozens of regulations, but in many local authorities there are barely one or two officers to do the job. As we consider the new regulations that we give to them to enforce, it is important that we make sure they get the support they need to do the job.
As I mentioned, I have some concerns about clause 20, in that it provides a relatively weak basis on which to compel a programme of enforcement to be carried out. However, I am glad it at least sets out something of the Minister’s expectations, and we acknowledge that different local authorities face different local challenges. We do not want to be overly prescriptive in what we set in law. The issue therefore comes down to resources, so can the Minister tell us what has been the result of Operation Joseph and whether it will be continuing? I note that it received £3 million in funding last year, but the timeframe in which that was scheduled to be delivered was unclear. Can the Minister clear that up?
The Chartered Trading Standards Institute estimates that one in three vapes on British shelves may be illicit, which suggests that local authorities are struggling to fully get to grips with existing enforcement priorities, as we add new ones. What assessment have the Government made of authorities’ capacity to absorb these new responsibilities with the resources allocated?
Bob Blackman
I want to put one issue to the Minister before she sums up these clauses. Obviously, the overwhelming number of retailers will wish to conform to the rules and regulations under which they exist. On re-reading the Bill, I notice that it does not cover the contents of products. For example, we have cited the issue of so-called nicotine-free products that contain nicotine and, indeed, many other products that may have different amounts of nicotine from what is stated. We hear anecdotally of some suppliers wanting to reduce the amount of nicotine in vapes to get people to buy more of them because the nicotine hit is insufficient. Under these powers, will trading standards officers have the opportunity to look at those products and take action against retailers who are clearly selling products whose contents clearly do not accord with what should be in them?
Rachael Maskell
I want to pick up on this point as well because it is incredibly important, and we cannot put the responsibilities on to trading standards if they do not have the tools to do the job. Clearly, this is a new field and, as we have discussed throughout the Bill, new products will come out and be marketed if we do not get ahead of the curve. It is therefore important that we ensure that new testing kits are made available and that we look at how they can be brought into play.
We heard strong evidence last week about the benefits of introducing a track and trace system, which would simplify the work of trading standards. If a product has not been through that process, and there is therefore not an authoritative basis on which to say that it can be sold, it would clearly be an illicit product. If a proper track and trace process was put in place, that could aid the work of trading standards, and addressing the real challenges we are trying to deal with through these clauses would not require such extensive resourcing.
Will the Minister therefore comment on her appetite for bringing in a track and trace system for vaping and other nicotine products to get ahead of the curve? That would ensure that the illicit trade is suppressed and does not rear its ugly head and that it is as easy as possible for trading standards to uphold every part of the Bill.
Bob Blackman
I always seek a spirit of compromise in such circumstances. At the moment, the Bill states:
“The amount specified in a fixed penalty notice must be £100.”
I am concerned about how that could be altered by regulation. Clearly, a consultation or other measures might be needed. A relatively simple amendment could have the clause state that the fixed penalty must be a minimum of £100 and can be varied by regulation. Will the Minister consider that as not necessarily an amendment today, but as something she might consider taking forward so that we can satisfy all sides?
Dame Andrea Leadsom
My hon. Friend makes an excellent suggestion, and I will certainly take that away to reflect on it. My initial thought is that we could, unfortunately, end up with a situation where a particular individual or premises felt that they were being unfairly penalised, because they got £100 and I got £200. We can imagine that. Nevertheless, I think it is a really good idea and a very good proposal for compromise, so yes, I will reflect on it.
I think, Dame Siobhain, we have come to the end of the discussion, so I commend clauses 24 to 26 to the Committee.
Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Third sitting)
Bob Blackman ExcerptsWednesday 1st May 2024
(6 months, 3 weeks ago)
Public Bill CommitteesRead Full debate Tobacco and Vapes Bill 2023-24 View all Tobacco and Vapes Bill 2023-24 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 1 May 2024 - (1 May 2024)
Nickie Aiken (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)
Q
Professor Sir Gregor Ian Smith: My view on the Bill as it stands is that it is a starting point for how we take this work forward. It is adequate in that sense because this is a really important area. For me, the absolute priority has to be to remove young people’s ability to access vapes and so begin the journey to nicotine addiction.
I am not in favour of criminalising the possession of these products, but I am certainly in favour of banning their sale to younger people. If we can achieve that at this stage, and, as Sir Michael said in his previous answer, if we can begin to shift the culture so that people do not start to use vapes and begin to become addicted—potentially also by using other nicotine and tobacco products—for me that will be a good job done.
If we do things that way, it will allow us to protect the useful use of vapes: where people with a lifelong addiction to tobacco can use them as way to help them stop. That is the only justification that I can see now for the way we have set this up and for continuing to use vapes in society: as a useful tool for those with a pre-existing addiction to tobacco, so that they can reduce the harm and gradually stop using tobacco—through formal cessation services, as well.
Professor Sir Chris Whitty: I agree with Sir Gregor. To reiterate, the Minister wanted to get a balance and most people would agree that criminalising people for individual possession is a step further than anyone would want and is needed. I do not think there is a clamour for that from anybody, and I think it would not help the Bill.
On prescription vapes, I would like to see those available for use at the moment. So far—I will go into the reasons for this on another occasion—no products are available that we can prescribe. We would all very much like those products to be there so that people can prescribe them. That is different from saying that they should be only on prescription; at this point, we do not even have any products to prescribe at all. If we did, that would be a very firm step in the right direction, but it depends on the industry coming forward with products.
Speaking directly to the industry, I should say that I do think there is a very important niche for prescription vapes. They would be very useful for some people, particularly those on low incomes who, for other health reasons, have free prescriptions. I encourage anyone from the industry who is listening to think seriously about bringing forward a prescription vaping product appropriate for aiding people to quit.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
Q
Professor Sir Chris Whitty: I have had the privilege of being more heavily involved in this Bill than the other CMOs, so I am going to ask them to answer it. My short answer is that this is a fantastic Bill. What I do not want is for the Bill to be delayed and therefore to not get through in the parliamentary time available. There is always a danger with these things, particularly when we are up against the clock, of the best being the enemy of the good. This is more than good; this is an outstanding Bill, to be clear, in terms of the Prime Minister’s bravery in putting it forward and, I think, the huge support from the general public and massive support from those working in healthcare. Really, what we want to do is get this through. I fully accept the points you are making, but that is my real concern about proposing any additions. Maybe you can start with Sir Michael, then Sir Gregor and then Sir Frank.
Professor Sir Michael McBride: I think this is a situation where perfection risks snatching victory from us. The most important thing, having looked at the Bill closely, is that this is an excellent Bill. I think we have all indicated that this is a once-in-a-generation opportunity, as your question suggests. We need to seize this opportunity. I and my colleagues fully support this Bill. I think this is a point that we will look back on five or 10 years from now and we will say that we were on the right side of history in supporting the Bill. This will make a fundamental difference to the next generation and generations to follow. Again, it is entirely consistent with the commitment in the Northern Ireland Executive to gradually phase out tobacco smoking. I fully support the Bill as it stands.
Professor Sir Gregor Ian Smith: I have nothing much more to add. In my view, this is a momentous point in time when we have the ability to really safeguard the future health of generations of people who will not be exposed to the regretful, harmful addiction to tobacco that they might have encountered. I am very satisfied with the content of the Bill as it is just now. The point Sir Michael makes about perfection being the enemy of good is a really important one. This is an opportunity that, to be honest, I really did not anticipate seeing in my career, yet here we are discussing a potential piece of legislation that will allow us to improve the health of people in our country for years and generations to come. This is an opportunity that we cannot afford to miss.
Sir Francis Atherton: There are no changes to the primary legislation that I would recommend at the moment. One thing I would say is that in Wales, we were very impressed with the Khan review, which gave us a really good steer. Many of the Khan review recommendations will be dealt with through the Bill, while a couple will not. I think the Bill as it stands has enough flexibility, particularly around vaping, to allow secondary legislation to keep up with the industry as it adapts and as it tries to find ways around the barriers to getting young people addicted to nicotine.
If I had a wish from the Khan review, it would be around the industry making a contribution to those costs I was talking earlier—the cost to the NHS—so sort of a levy on the industry to correct the damage, or a polluter pays thing, as is being introduced for the gambling industry. However, I do not think that would fit at all with the current Bill.
Bob Blackman
Q
Professor Sir Chris Whitty: I reiterate at the beginning that we think it is safer to vape than smoke—I always have to say that first. All of us, including the other CMOs—what I am about to say is a pretty central view in the medical profession—would say that there are many things in vapes that we know cause harm, but we do not know the extent of the harm because they are relatively new products, or we would say we do not know whether they cause harm, but they might well do. We know from work on air pollution that there are large numbers of chemicals that if you breathe them in in reasonable concentrations are highly damaging not just to lungs but to brains, the liver and many other things, but are not damaging if you eat them.
The fact that something is non-toxic—a food additive, say—does not necessarily mean that it is non-toxic if you inhale it. So all of us are very cautious about the long-term effects of vaping and very concerned that we do not see a large expansion of vaping in people who were not smokers. That is particularly true for children. Within that, there are things available in legal vapes—multiple things—and every time a new flavour is brought in, new chemicals are introduced for which we often do not have a good evidence base. In my view, the onus should be on the industry to prove it is safe when inhaled, and not on us to prove 20 years later that it was dangerous. There is a very serious concern about that. Additionally, there is a significant additional risk from illegal vapes, of which there are many, which contain really very dangerous chemicals—heavy metals of various sorts.
None of us would want you to go away with the idea that we think vapes are safe and that we would encourage their use, except in the narrow context of someone who was a smoker, where we definitely think they are safer. But that, as I said earlier, is setting the bar very low.
The Chair
I inform Committee members that we have 14 minutes to go and three people who have not yet spoken and would like to. I want to bring in the Minister and the shadow Minister at the end. I notice that there is huge unanimity among our panel members. Could I also ask you to be brief and perhaps get one of your number to answer a question so that we get everybody in? Bambos Charalambous is next.
Tobacco and Vapes Bill (First sitting)
Bob Blackman ExcerptsTuesday 30th April 2024
(6 months, 3 weeks ago)
Public Bill CommitteesRead Full debate Tobacco and Vapes Bill 2023-24 View all Tobacco and Vapes Bill 2023-24 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 30 April 2024 - (30 Apr 2024)
The Chair
We are now sitting in public again, and our proceedings are being broadcast. Before we hear from the witnesses, do any Members wish to declare their interests in connection with the Bill?
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
I chair the all-party parliamentary group on smoking and health.
Bambos Charalambous (Enfield, Southgate) (Lab)
I do not know whether it is an actual declaration, but I did the Cancer Research 10k fun run in February—the winter run.
Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)
Q
Bob Blackman
All three witnesses have given support for the Bill. You have already suggested one change that could be made in terms of age verification, similar to the system in Scotland. Are there any other changes that you think should be implemented that could make the Bill stronger? One of the concerns that many of us have is that we get only a limited number of chances to deal with this challenge in primary legislation, so we need to get in as much as we can to make sure that we achieve the smoke-free England that we all want to see.
The Chair
That is really helpful.
Patrick Roach: I am not going to add to that, partly because I am here representing the interests of our members. The issue is about how we can control access to products, particularly illegal products, for school-age pupils. We therefore think that it is absolutely right that the Bill has identified the need to secure robust measures to protect the health and wellbeing of children and young people.
Bob Blackman
Q
Matthew Shanks: There are lots of campaigns that explain the harms of vaping and smoking. Sometimes people do not listen and do not engage with them. The only thing that I would say is that more people vape and smoke than take drugs, because drugs are illegal. If we are saying that tobacco is dangerous and harmful to people in our society, and our role is to protect them and educate them to see what is better, why is tobacco not illegal as well? Vaping started as an alternative to tobacco, but it is now catching on with young people. Is there a similar thing to be done with vapes? That is the view within schools on how we can help children to engage in what they should be doing at school, which is working at their education. There will be other things that have come along, but 15 years ago it was chewing gum everywhere—nicotine chewing gum was a big thing.
Patrick Roach: The reality is that schools are doing an awful lot to inform, to educate and indeed to regulate the conduct of children and young people, as well as to engage with parents and carers, but schools by themselves cannot change society. They can have a tremendous influence over wider society, but by themselves they cannot change it.
Anything that we can continue to do to educate young people about the harms and dangers of smoking and vaping, we should continue to do. Notwithstanding this legislation, that is essential, because no legislation is going to eliminate illegality. We have to continue to strive to eradicate those behaviours wherever they manifest themselves.
What other practical measures could the Bill include? I have mentioned the way in which vape products are described. We think that something could be done there. On availability—this is potentially outwith the scope of the Bill, but it could happen through other legislation and regulation—we think that the prohibition of disposable vapes is an issue that needs to be addressed.
There is also the issue of enforcement measures. There is no point in passing legislation if it is not enforced in practice. We need to ensure that the enforcement measures are absolutely robust. The proximity to schools of any retailer selling vaping products also needs to be looked at.
Mary Kelly Foy
Q
Matthew Shanks: That is happening at the moment within education, in curriculums and so on, but there is a lack of messaging around vaping, its harmful effects and its cheapness compared with tobacco. Even with the teaching of the harmful effects and the messaging compared with tobacco, there are still some families who smoke and you still see celebrities smoking. You are fighting that all the time.
It is good that we are educating young children about the harmful effects of things and the need to change, and we will continue to do that. We talk about big tobacco companies, big pharma, the global environment and so on, all within the curriculum.
Patrick Roach: The reality is that we need more space in the curriculum to do all that and to make the connections between vaping, the impact on a child’s health, and how these companies are profiteering, often from the most vulnerable. The producers of vaping products, the degradation of the environment, the way products are manufactured—all of this is very rich territory.
I would like to see more by way of permission for teachers and school leaders to engage with their pupils about the real everyday concerns that young people have. There should be more scope and space in the curriculum to do that. That is not to argue against the teaching of maths, science and languages; it is about saying that we want to produce well-rounded individuals. For us, that is the purpose of education. This is an area where educators have an important role to play.
Matthew Shanks: I would just add to that by encouraging you to visit your local schools and see what they are doing.