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The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Nigel Huddleston)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, Ms Bardell. I congratulate the hon. Member for Stirling (Alyn Smith) on securing the debate, and thank everybody who has contributed. Everyone contributed in a very constructive manner—until a few minutes ago. Many hon. Members graciously commented on my previous role. As tourism Minister, I had the real pleasure of visiting the vast majority of their constituencies, and it has been fantastic to have a tour of the UK today. We have heard about the fantastic hospitality, tourism and leisure offerings in everybody’s constituencies, including some absolute gems that make us very proud of this industry.
The hospitality and leisure sector is formidable. Definitions can sometimes be difficult; sometimes when people use the term “hospitality”, they are just talking about pubs, bars and restaurant, but we are thinking more broadly about the tourism, hospitality and leisure offering. To respond to the hon. Member for Ealing North (James Murray), I can say that we engage with the sector all the time. Just yesterday, many of us attended the UKHospitality reception, at which the formidable Kate Nicolls articulated the sector’s asks very well. We hear them all the time, and we are always listening to ideas.
Wera Hobhouse
The Minister mentioned a range of hospitality businesses. Will the Government please look at ensuring the survival of struggling businesses such as small music venues, which will close if they do not get the support they need?
Nigel Huddleston
In this debate we have heard an ongoing request for simplification in recognition of these challenging times—we did, of course, spend £350 billion on the pandemic—and a series of requests for additional relief here, there and everywhere. Everybody recognises—the Welsh and Scottish Governments are also struggling with this—that financial times are tight and that every single one of those requests comes at a cost: either other people would pay more tax or spending would be reduced somewhere else.
We absolutely hear the requests, but as my hon. Friend the Member for St Austell and Newquay (Steve Double) pointed out, over the past few years—certainly during the pandemic—the Government have recognised how vital the sector is and have been absolutely committed to it. It rightly received the immense support that it needed during the pandemic, including through the culture recovery fund to help music and heritage. So many sectors contribute to our tourism and hospitality offering. If we had not made those interventions during the pandemic, many businesses that are here today would otherwise not be. Ongoing asks during the period of recovery, when we need to start paying back that £350 billion, are very difficult because there would be massive consequences for taxpayers and the whole of the economy. I understand the challenges, but I think everybody recognises that every one of those asks comes at a cost.
Tim Farron
We obviously have to be careful with the nation’s finances and act within the envelope available to us, but what does the Minister make of the fact that UKinbound, Cumbria Tourism and others say that a variation of VAT levels would be of net benefit to the Treasury? Has he analysed those assessments? I am sure he has met those outfits personally.
Nigel Huddleston
I suspect I could spend the whole of this debate answering Members’ questions rather than going through my speech, much to the chagrin of my officials. Again, I understand the request. Many hon. Members pointed out that I was the one making these requests to the Treasury not so very long ago, for all the reasons they outlined, but we all recognise that we have to find the balance.
The point about dynamic modelling is really important. I will come on to VAT in a moment, but we must recognise that one of the biggest challenges of all requests for VAT relief is whether it will be passed on. There is not a 100% fantastic record of that happening in the hospitality and tourism sector or across the board, for understandable reasons. Cash flow was key during the pandemic, so not everybody was able to pass on the VAT reductions. When it comes to future requests for VAT reductions, we must be absolutely confident that they will be passed on, and that applies to multiple sectors.
Mr Ellwood
The Minister is being very generous in giving way. My right hon. Friend the Member for Witham (Priti Patel) mentioned the forthcoming Budget. Is there anything the Minister can tease us with? Can we look forward to anything in the Budget to support the hospitality industry?
Nigel Huddleston
I do love it when former Ministers try to tempt me in that way, knowing full well what the answer will be. What I can say is that we are listening.
I have gone off script for the past few minutes to try to respond to hon. Members, who have spoken eloquently and with real consideration of the challenges with their asks. There are no easy answers, given the challenging financial services. I and the other Treasury Ministers, and certainly the Chancellor and the Prime Minister, are always listening. We are always open to listening to evidence-based information. In that context, I cannot make any hints or promises about what may be in the upcoming Budget, but I can say that the view and opinion of the hospitality sector, especially as embodied by talented people such as Kate Nicholls at UKHospitality, and many others right across the UK, is valued. The sector used to be incredibly fragmented, and therefore did not have the voice it has now. Now, the sector comes in with credible, decent asks that need to be assessed with evidence. The voice of the hospitality sector has never been stronger in Government. I applaud all the lobbyists and groups for doing that.
Priti Patel
The Minister mentioned UKHospitality and Kate Nicholls and the way they have come together. Clearly, there are problems with labour markets in the hospitality sector, and there have been for many years—it is not a new phenomenon. What are the barriers to UKHospitality and the Treasury working together to create a labour market strategy for the hospitality sector?
Nigel Huddleston
Again, these are ongoing conversations across multiple Government Departments. In my former capacity as tourism Minister, I certainly had extensive conversations. There were sub-working groups at UKHospitality identifying areas for further work. That has had some impact, including through apprenticeship schemes. My right hon. Friend was absolutely right to highlight this issue. We have debated Brexit, which probably goes slightly beyond the current remit, although I understand the impact—and, by the way, the opportunities that come from that. My right hon. Friend is right that we need to focus on the domestic skills agenda. The hospitality and leisure sector contributes to one in five new jobs, so it is absolutely pivotal to that.
If hon. Members will forgive me, I will try to get through some of my speech—and not try your patience too much, Ms Bardell—because I am not even on page 1 yet.
Hannah Bardell (in the Chair)
Just to clarify, the Minister has a little bit of flexibility. Given the extent of the debate and the number of questions, he is free to go over the 10 minutes and answer everyone’s questions—as he would like.
Nigel Huddleston
I will make sure I leave a minute or two at the end for the hon. Member for Stirling to conclude—I may have shot myself in the foot there by giving everybody the opportunity to ask all the awkward questions they now have.
Like many hon. Members, my first job was in the hospitality and leisure sector, with a travel agent. I then had the very difficult choice at the age of 22 between taking a job for Arthur Andersen and becoming a Club 18-30 rep. I wonder if my life might have been considerably different if I had taken that slightly different path. My right hon. Friend the Member for Witham is right: jobs in the hospitality and leisure sector help people with numeracy skills, self-confidence and interpersonal skills, which can stay with them for life.
We need to recognise that this sector is not just about part-time jobs for students or young people; we should not forget that there are also valuable, often very high-paying, long-term careers in the sector. The sector has evolved and changed, and is now a major contributor to the UK economy, with £140 billion of economic activity. There are masses of opportunities there, but the reputation and image of the sector is sometimes one of its inhibitors. I am therefore a huge champion of the sector for all the reasons we have outlined.
We have had quite a lot of debate today about the various support measures, including business rate relief. It is worth remembering that the Government provided £16 billion of business rate relief in England through the pandemic. In addition, we launched the temporary 50% retail, hospitality and leisure relief scheme at the 2021 Budget. That was built on in the 2022 autumn statement, and the Government announced further tax cuts to the sector in last year’s autumn statement—about £4.3 billion over the next five years—and extended the retail, hospitality and leisure relief scheme at 75% up to a cash cap of £110,000 per business for 2024-25.
As has been recognised, the Labour Government in Wales and the SNP Government in Scotland were not able to extend those reliefs. I recognise that everybody realises there are considerable financial pressures, but with the greatest respect to my opposite numbers, who have been somewhat critical, I do think this is important and it is something I will play up very heavily: we have done things in England, where we have controlled the levers, that have not been done in Wales and Scotland.
Overall, this tax cut is worth about £2.4 billion for around 230,000 retail, hospitality and leisure properties to continue support for our vital high streets and protect so many small shops and businesses. The Government have also decided to freeze the small business multiplier for the fourth consecutive year. That will protect over a million rate payers and 90% of all properties from a multiplier increase.
For example, as a result of the changes, the average independent pub will receive about £11,800 of relief off their final business rates bill in 2024-25. Combined with the small business multiplier being frozen, they will benefit to the tune of about £12,800 of support. I repeat: that is not the level of support that they would get in Scotland or Wales.
A few points were raised about other areas, and I remind hon. Members that reliefs are also available for improvements in property. If there is an incremental rateable value because of improvements, that will not be included for the first year where eligible. I also remind hon. Members about the changes in alcohol duty and the Brexit pubs guarantee, which are designed to support the pubs sector and to help it operate on a level playing field with supermarkets.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Witham (Priti Patel) made many points about skills and jobs. I will not repeat what I said, because I think I have made the point that we are very aware of the importance of that sector and the role we have in developing skills and opportunities.
Cutting VAT was mentioned by nearly everybody, and I want to be clear on this point. As we all know, VAT is a major contributor to the nation’s finances, which we then spend on our vital public services. It is forecast to raise about £173 billion in 2023-24. Since we left the EU, we have been taking advantage of multiple reliefs. I believe that if we were to rank ourselves against all other EU countries for the total number of reliefs we are able to exercise through VAT, we would be about second or third. We have been taking advantage of leaving by reducing reliefs and making real differences where and when we can.
The VAT cut for tourism and hospitality that we made during the pandemic came at a significant cost of more than £8 billion. Reintroducing it would come at a considerable cost. That was just one element of the support for the retail, hospitality and leisure sector during the pandemic, but it was a really important part of it.
Anthony Mangnall
I thank the Minister for that response; it is very helpful to get an understanding of what the costs would be around VAT. Was any modelling done of what would have happened if we had not made that cut and what the impact would have been in terms of lost businesses and rising unemployment numbers? Could those models be produced or published, so that we can make that comparison in Parliament?
Nigel Huddleston
Various pieces of internal and external analysis have been released. We all know anecdotally from experiences in our constituencies that it literally did save businesses around the country. As I said, the Treasury keep tax policy under review all the time—that is a mantra, but it is true. The message I want to get across to colleagues today is that this will not be an easy choice. I understand the asks and we understand the impact, and there are various points of modelling, but it would not be an easy option. I repeat the caution that pass-through is vital when it comes to VAT relief. That did not happen wholly last time, but I understand why, as some of it was cash flow.
Mr Ellwood
Everybody understands the passion with which the Minister is pushing this. I do hope, as I teased last time, that he is having private conversations with the Treasury and making the mathematical case very clear. A business that closes does not pay any VAT at all. A business that thrives because VAT has been reduced somewhat can then pay more corporation tax. That is the mathematical formula that we would like to see, which I think has been presented by UKHospitality, and which justifies reducing VAT to 10% in the hospitality sector.
Nigel Huddleston
My right hon. Friend makes a logical point. I assure him that I am listening, but I am not making any promises.
I will refer to a couple of other areas that hon. Members mentioned. I appreciate the tone adopted by the hon. Member for Stirling. He recognised that there are things that the sector is requesting and looking for that Scotland, Wales and other countries are not able to deliver. That does not mean that any of us are not sympathetic; it is about the balance of the support package that we need to deliver. Like many today, he commented on both business rates and VAT.
My hon. Friend the Member for St Austell and Newquay has one of the most beautiful constituencies in the country, but also, as he said, one of those that is most reliant on this sector. He raised a variety of points, and he and I have had ongoing conversations about this subject, because he is such a champion of it. His point about the ongoing efforts to make sure that we get more inbound tourists outside London is pivotal. There are various opportunities and measures: VisitEngland, VisitBritain, VisitScotland, VisitWales, Discover Ireland and Discover Northern Ireland all do a fantastic job of helping to support and enable that tourism, plus there is a key role for our transport system.
My hon. Friend is right, however, that about 50% of all inbound tourism spend is within the M25. That is great, and we are not saying that that should be less; we are saying that we want it to be “London plus”. That is a key part of the tourism strategy, and I assure my hon. Friend that we are talking about this on an ongoing basis with DCMS and the Tourism Minister.
The hon. Member for York Central (Rachael Maskell) highlighted issues in her fantastic constituency, which I have had the pleasure of visiting on multiple occasions. She highlighted the importance of heritage in the tourism and hospitality ecosystem, and also mentioned flooding. She may or may not be aware that there are opportunities for businesses that are severely impacted by flooding under what is called a “material change in circumstances”. Working with the valuation office, there are opportunities to see, on a case-by-case basis, whether some relief is available. She might want to see whether some of the businesses impacted could consider that, as well as other support measures that we have provided for those impacted by flooding.
My hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Anthony Mangnall) raised multiple points. He highlighted the upside of some of the trade deals that we are doing, so his constituency is now probably going to be flooded by Australian barmen and barwomen over the next few years. That is not necessarily a bad thing; I wonder whether they are better cocktail waiters and waitresses than he was.
My hon. Friend also raised the important point that, although the headline rates of VAT in some of our European friends’ countries may be lower, there is often a sting in the tail of quite considerable—startlingly high, in some cases—tourism tax, sometimes at a very local level. There is not a huge amount of evidence to suggest that that works either. There is always a balance, and although something may look like a beneficial tax rate system, one only has to scratch beneath the surface to find that there is something a bit more to it.
Anthony Mangnall
The Minister is giving a comprehensive answer to all the points raised in the debate. I re-emphasise the point that, if he is worried about the £8 billion figure that was quoted as a cost for when we reduce VAT by 15%, he could get around that not only by using UKHospitality’s data, but by tiering it and doing a 2% reduction over a five-year period. I hope that would at least comfort the bean counters in the Treasury and reassure UKHospitality that we are going in the right direction.
Nigel Huddleston
I am yet to see the beans being counted, although I am sure that it happens somewhere. My hon. Friend is building on a very clear message that I have received from right hon. and hon. Members today.
The hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron) and I have had ongoing conversations over multiple years. I do not doubt his passion and support for the sector, or how important the sector is for his constituents. He was right to raise the issue of holiday lettings. I understand that he is disappointed with some of the measures that we have brought in, although some of those measures will make a real difference, including the ability to charge more for some rental properties. All I can say is that we are well aware of some of the additional lobbying for proposed changes and, again, that we are always open to further ideas.
Tim Farron
Although we need labour from outside, we also need to be able to grow our own talent domestically; that is the specific thing that will make a difference. The real problem is the collapse of residential properties for long-term occupation. The answer to that is a separate category of planning use for short-term lets and a separate category for second homes. Will his Government choose to do either of those things? They promised to do at least the first one.
Nigel Huddleston
All I can say to the hon. Gentleman is that we are listening. Some measures are being put in place that local authorities will have powers to implement, but I understand that a lot of people are not happy with the situation. I completely understand the challenges at a local level, particularly when it comes to employment and the unaffordable cost of housing in many parts of the country, as many Members have mentioned.
Rachael Maskell
In my speech I mentioned the extension of covid loans for businesses that have those loans. What is the Treasury’s view on extending them so that investment can be made in those businesses elsewhere?
Nigel Huddleston
I cannot comment on any further changes, but there has been some flexibility with covid loans, as we have announced. This is important. Of course, we want those covid loans to be paid back, but that needs to be done over a period of time that is sustainable for businesses. This is in the context of the overall support, including the comments that I made about business rates relief and other things for the retail, hospitality and leisure sector. We are aware that the sector was hit so hard by the pandemic and is still in the process of recovering—it is recovering remarkably strongly, but it is not out of the danger zone yet.
Steve Double
On the housing issue, one thing that the Treasury could do is level the tax playing field on the tax breaks between short-term holiday lets and residential properties. That would make a significant difference and would really help. Perhaps the Minister will take that message back.
Nigel Huddleston
I thank my hon. Friend and others for their input today. I will briefly comment on a couple of more items before I close, Ms Bardell. The hon. Member for Bath (Wera Hobhouse), which is another beautiful constituency that I visit frequently, raised a range of issues, including the importance of the environment in the tourism eco-system and environmentally sensitive tourism. I think we will respectfully disagree on the efforts being made by the Government on decarbonising and so on. I think we have a very proud record. I recognise that there is a debate in this area, but her broader points about the contribution of tourism to the environment and the importance of sustainability are important.
The hon. Member for Ochil and South Perthshire (John Nicolson) raised a range of issues, and I will present to him the challenge that I also presented to my opposite number, the hon. Member for Ealing North. The hon. Member for Ochil and South Perthshire made a comment about tax cuts just for the rich and wealthy, but that is so far from reality that I will have to respectfully disagree with him. If he does not believe that we are giving tax cuts to everybody—as I said, the national insurance cuts that we made were for 27 million people— I will present him with the same challenge: let us look at his pay packet for this month and see whether the contribution is lower than December’s. If he does not believe that it is lower, with respect, why does he not give that money to charity or back to the Government? It is important that we recognise that the national insurance cuts are meaningful for 27 million people, including many people on low incomes. That is far from the characterisation of saying that these are tax cuts for the wealthy. We have a laser focus on making sure that the low-paid benefit from such tax cuts.
John Nicolson
I am sure the Minister will have heard me: I specifically referred to cuts in inheritance tax. That is what I raised in my speech. If he would like to tell us that that is a red herring and that no such cuts are intended, I would be delighted to hear it.
Nigel Huddleston
No such cuts have been made. As I said, the hon. Member’s point was speculation and that is not anything I can comment on today.
Ms Bardell, thank you for your patience. I thank everyone for their contributions. All points have been taken on board, and I thank hon. Members for their passion for the sector.