18:29 - The House divided: - Ayes: 277 / Noes: 217 - Question accordingly agreed to.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Suella Braverman)
I beg to move,
That the draft Public Order Act 1986 (Serious Disruption to the Life of the Community) Regulations 2023, which were laid before this House on 27 April, be approved.
The regulations propose amendments to sections 12 and 14 of the Public Order Act 1986. These sections provide the police with the powers to impose conditions on harmful protests that cause or risk causing serious disruption to the life of the community. These regulations have been brought forward to provide further clarity. I want to place on record my thanks to the Minister for Crime, Policing and Fire, my right hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South (Chris Philp), and to policing colleagues and officials for their hard work on this issue.
People have a right to get to work on time free from obstruction, a right to enjoy sporting events without interruption and a right to get to hospital. The roads belong to the British people, not to a selfish minority who treat them like their personal property. The impact of these disruptors is huge. Over the past six weeks alone, Just Stop Oil has carried out 156 slow marches around London. That has required more than 13,770 police officer shifts. That is more than 13,000 police shifts that could have been spent stopping robbery, violent crime or antisocial behaviour, and the cost to the taxpayer is an outrage, with £4.5 million spent in just six weeks, on top of the £14 million spent last year. In some cases the protests have aggravated the public so much that they have taken matters into their own hands. They have lost their patience. The police must be able to stop this happening and it is our job in government to give them the powers to do so.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I have noticed over the last few weeks, and others will have noticed this as well, that some of those who are protesting and stopping people getting to work, getting to hospital and going about their normal lives habitually and regularly protest. It seems to me that the law of the land is not hard enough the first time round to ensure they do not do it again. If they continually do it, we need a law to reflect that. Is the Secretary of State able to assure the House that the law will come down hard on protesters who wish to stop normal life?
Suella Braverman
The hon. Gentleman is right to emphasise the impact of repetitive, disruptive protesters. That they are behaving disruptively again and again is evidence that we now need to ensure the police have robust and sufficient powers to prevent this from happening.
Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)
I fully support what my right hon. and learned Friend is doing. She can relax, as I have not come with a pot of glue in my pocket to glue myself to the Bench next to her in protest at what is happening with RAF Scampton. Does she accept that if people with good arguments put them politely and relentlessly, this Government will listen and they will eventually win?
Suella Braverman
My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. I pay tribute to the noble and honourable way in which he advocates for his constituents in relation to RAF Scampton. We live in a democracy in which freedom of speech must prevail. That means advocating and campaigning through lawful methods and lawful means, not breaking the law and causing misery and disruption to the law-abiding majority.
Richard Burgon (Leeds East) (Lab)
Will the Home Secretary come clean and admit that this authoritarian clampdown on our society’s hard-won democratic freedoms is being intensified by this Government because their policies are becoming ever more unpopular? Their heavy-handed, antidemocratic response shames us all.
Suella Braverman
The Chamber will not be surprised that I disagree with the hon. Gentleman. The right to protest is an important and fundamental right that I will ferociously defend, but serious disruption, nuisance and criminality are unjustified, which is why the police need the right powers to police protesters.
John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)
I am grateful for what my right hon. and learned Friend is seeking to do. Can she confirm that there could, indeed, be cases in which protesters stop one getting to hospital for an emergency operation or procedure, or stop a woman who is about to give birth from getting to hospital in a hurry, and that they are risking people’s lives?
Suella Braverman
Their tactics are dangerous. They are putting people’s lives at risk by stopping ambulances getting to emergencies and stopping people getting to hospital appointments. They are stopping people getting to work, school and funerals. The instances are infinite, and the disruption must stop.
Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)
I was a serial protester in Northern Ireland, so I understand the importance of people being able to express their peaceful opposition to whatever it happens to be. Regardless of the regulations that the right hon. and learned Lady puts in place, some police officers seem to have a sympathetic attitude towards some of these causes. Is she not concerned that some courts are prepared to allow people to walk out of court, having committed acts of criminal damage, without imposing any sanction? How does she believe these regulations will change that mindset?
Suella Braverman
The right hon. Gentleman raises an important point. The Government’s job is to provide sufficient, lawful and proportionate powers for the police to exercise. They have operational independence, and they need to make decisions and judgments based on the particular circumstances. Our job is to give them the powers to enable them to take the fullest and most lawful approach.
Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
Have the police specifically requested these new powers? The deputy assistant commissioner of the Metropolitan police, Ade Adelekan, has said about recent slow-march protests
“once a protest is deemed to have caused serious disruption or may do so, we are taking swift action to stop it.”
Does the Home Secretary disagree with what he is saying, that the police already have the powers they need?
Suella Braverman
One of the first things I did when I became Home Secretary, along with the Minister for Crime, Policing and Fire and the Prime Minister, was to meet policing leads, in the Metropolitan police and nationwide, to hear about the challenges they have been and are facing in policing protests. They have requested extra powers and extra clarity in the law.
I find it surprising and disappointing that Labour MPs are not supporting the measures before us today, given how important they are to the public and how damaging serious disruption can be to everyday life. I have been trying to think about why that would be. Has it got anything to do with the fact that the Labour party—the Leader of the Opposition and his deputy—has taken £1.5 million of donations from a businessman who bankrolls Just Stop Oil? Is it because Labour’s botched environmental policies now seem to be directed by the eco-zealots? The right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) should be embarrassed that Labour is more interested in supporting Just Stop Oil than standing up for the law-abiding majority. This Government and the police have always maintained that the powers are necessary to respond effectively to guerrilla protests.
Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)
Clearly, it is important that the Home Secretary gives accurate information to Parliament, so will she clarify her answer to my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Dame Diana Johnson), the Home Affairs Committee Chair, as to whether the police and the National Police Chiefs’ Council have requested the precise wording that she has put forward in these regulations? She said to the Chamber a week ago that the
“asylum initial…backlog is down by 17,000”.—[Official Report, 5 June 2023; Vol. 733, c. 557.]
She knows that that is not true and that the asylum initial backlog, which includes legacy and flow, has gone up. Will she now correct the record, as she is before the House and she knows the importance of the ministerial code and correcting any errors at the first opportunity?
Suella Braverman
Sadly, we see unsurprising tactics from the Labour party. Again, Labour Members seek to distract from their woeful failure to stand up for the law-abiding majority, who want us to take these measures on protesters, and to cover up the fact that they have absolutely no policy to stop the boats. It is disappointing but unsurprising.
These regulations will ensure clarity and consistency in public order legislation in the following ways. First, they clarify that the police may take into account the cumulative impact of simultaneous and repeated protests in a specific area when considering whether there is a risk. Secondly, they permit the police to consider the absolute disruption caused by a protest—in other words, their evaluation may be irrespective of the disruption that is typical in that area. Thirdly, the regulations define the term “community” to include “any group” impacted by a protest, extending beyond those in the immediate area. That definition better reflects the cross-section of the public affected by disruptive protests in cities today. Finally, the regulations align the threshold of “serious disruption” with that in the Public Order Act 2023. This definition, proposed by Lord Hope, the former deputy president of the Supreme Court, is rooted in protest case law. It was debated at length by Parliament and deemed appropriate for use in the Public Order Act 2023. It should now be incorporated into the Public Order Act 1986 to ensure consistency across the statute book.
Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)
Will the Secretary of State give way?
Suella Braverman
I will not give way, as I have taken a lot of interventions.
The regulations will make it clear that serious disruption to the life of the community includes
“the prevention of, or a hindrance that is more than minor to, the carrying out of day-to-day activities (including…the making of a journey)”.
These regulations do not create new powers but instead clarify powers that already exist. In support of that, we held targeted engagement with operational leads. The NPCC, the Metropolitan Police Service and the chief constables of the affected forces all welcome further clarity in law. To summarise, these measures ensure that public order legislation is clear, consistent and current.
In conclusion, I will always defend the rights of Just Stop Oil or anyone else to express their views, even to protest—that is free speech, that is the foundation of our democracy. However, its methods are deplorable. That is what millions of people, the law-abiding majority, and this Government believe to be true. These measures are for them—for the people trying to get to work, the people trying to get to a family funeral, the people trying to get to hospital. This Conservative Government are on their side.
Dr Kieran Mullan (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con)
The main point I want to emphasise today is that these issues are of course to do with balance. Opposition Members want to make it black and white, but we know that these things are not black and white. I am also interested in the fact that some of the same Members who have been so opposed to these regulations made complete counter-arguments when they proposed legislation, which I supported, to say that people should not be able to protest within a certain distance of an abortion clinic. These are common arguments and it is about the individual interpretation of them.
In a free society, we have responsibilities as well as rights. Our right to protest does not offer absolute relief from our responsibility to allow other citizens to go about their lives freely. Of course they have a right to do that. Much attention is paid to the rights of the protesters, but what about the rights of everyone else? We must view the impact in the context of the cost of resources to taxpayers, because they have a right to see their resources used sensibly. If we are going to say that something is acceptable—disruptive protest, disrupting sporting events, going on the road—let us imagine what would happen if we were not spending millions of pounds to minimise that behaviour. That behaviour would run rife. We would not be able to have a public event in this country without one or two people running into it and disrupting it. We would be unable to have any kind of major event without spending millions of pounds to stop people from protesting en masse, so it is quite right that we should look at making sure that we can do that more efficiently.
I would encourage the Home Secretary to consider going further. We are talking today about serious disruption and people perhaps not being able to go to hospital, but what about just being able to go to work, to catch up with a friend that they have not seen for a few months or to go out for dinner in a restaurant? Why do we say that one individual person can block a road and prevent all sorts of people going about their daily lives because they care deeply about an issue?
Kit Malthouse (North West Hampshire) (Con)
My hon. Friend is making a very strong point. Does he agree that part of the disconnect on this between the Labour party and the rest of the country is that with these protests, the disruption is the objective, not the message? That is what makes the British people feel so aggrieved. Here in Westminster, more than anywhere, we understand that disruption can be a by-product of protest, but that is a by-product, not the primary objective.
Dr Mullan
Indeed, and the protesters brazenly admit it. It is not about protesting with a by-product of disruption; they brazenly admit that they want to do ever-escalating things to get into the news. They should go on a hunger protest and disrupt their own lives. Do not eat—that will get in the news. Why do they think they can go around disrupting everybody else’s lives just to make their point? Importantly, they can still protest. I was flabbergasted by the reporting of the apparent crackdown on protest at the coronation. I was on the parliamentary estate, and I saw loads of people holding up signs saying, “Not my King”. It was all over the news and I saw lots of people who were not arrested and who were not moved on. They were within feet of the procession and were perfectly able to go about their protesting.
I urge the Home Secretary to think about this. In my view, people should not be able to disrupt a road. They should not be able to stop traffic because they care particularly about an issue.
Alison Thewliss
The right hon. Gentleman makes an interesting point. I would take a lot more from him if he actually believed climate change was real in the first place, before he starts lecturing other people.
The UK Constitutional Law Association has described this statutory instrument as
“an audacious and unprecedented defiance of the will of Parliament.”
This Government are bringing in things through this SI that they could not get through in legislation. The UKCLA says that
“The Government set about drafting regulations that would reverse the defeat in the House, relying on Henry VIII powers to amend the Public Order Act 1986 conferred by the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022. These draft regulations were laid before the Public Order Bill had even completed its Parliamentary stages. In this way, the Government sought to obtain through the back door that which it could not obtain through the front.”
That goes to the heart of this shoddy process this afternoon.
While this regulation is an England and Wales regulation, it does have implications for my constituents and other people from Scotland who wish to come and protest. If the WASPI women campaigners in my constituency wanted to come down here to complain about the injustice of having their state pension robbed from them by consecutive Westminster Governments; if they wanted to protest outside Parliament, as they have done on many occasions; and if they wanted to invoke the spirit of Mary Barbour, to bang pots and pans and stand in the road outside of this building, they would not be protected just because they are Scottish. They would be at risk of causing serious disruption under these regulations and would be lifted by the police forthwith. They would be at risk of causing serious disruption under these regulations and would be lifted by the police forthwith. That goes to the heart of these proposals. Those actions are just and important, and they want to draw attention to that injustice.
Alison Thewliss
No, the right hon. Member has been extremely obnoxious to me many times in the past, so I will not take his intervention.
Groups, including Liberty, have pointed out that these are not insignificant changes. Liberty says that the Government’s attempt to redefine serious disruption from “significant and prolonged” to “more than minor” is
“effectively an attempt to divorce words from their ordinary meaning in ways that will have significant implications for our civil liberties.”
The statutory instrument refers to
“the prevention of, or a hindrance that is more than minor to, the carrying out of day-to-day activities (including in particular the making of a journey)”,
but what is “minor”? We do not know. Is a couple of minutes late “minor”? What is “more than minor”? Is that 10 minutes late rather than five minutes late? There is nothing in these regulations to say. They will give significant discretion to the police to figure out exactly what is “minor” and what is “more than minor”, because nobody can really tell us.
Mr Carmichael
I think the glorious 12th comes in August actually, but I bow to the expertise of those on the Conservative Benches on such matters.
In fairness, however, the right hon. Gentleman has a reasonable point, and I understand that the legislation to which he refers pertains only to Northern Ireland and that is perhaps why it is not part of this legislation. Essentially, however, as the shadow Home Secretary said in her remarks, this is an area of law that is already well regulated. Very few areas of lacuna remain within the law and this legislation is not in any practical, meaningful way going to fill any difficulties. What would fill difficulties is a better resourced police force that is better able to engage with people and take on board their wish to protest.
Kit Malthouse
Will the right hon. Gentleman comment on the fact that it is not just Northern Ireland that has regulation of protest? He will be aware that in Scotland it is a criminal offence not to notify the police within 28 days of an organised moving protest, and that people may face criminal sanctions if they do not do so. What is the difference between the legislation we are currently discussing and the law under which his constituents operate, where they may go to prison if they do not tell the police about a protest that is coming?
Mr Carmichael
I could be wrong because I am hopelessly out of date on so much of this stuff, but I think from memory that the right hon. Gentleman refers to the provisions of the Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982, which was brought into force under a previous Government—a Government for whom I had very little time, but in terms of the way in which they went about their business were a model of parliamentary propriety compared with the mince that has been brought to the Chamber this afternoon. This comes back to the point I made about the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich: there are serious issues here to be decided—serious issues about the balance between the rights of the individual to protest and the rights of the community to go about their business—but this is not the way to deal with them.
The shadow Home Secretary made the point that this is an area where there is already extensive legislation. Problems arise not from the lack of legislation but from the lack of the ability to implement properly and with consent the laws we currently have.
Suella Braverman
I thank all right hon. and hon. Members for their contributions in what has been a fruitful and lively debate. I will not spend too much time responding to Labour’s position. The response of the shadow Secretary of State was almost totally devoid of anything serious on the issue of public order. She would rather spend her time in the Chamber glued to her phone, as my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) remarked.
Yvette Cooper
Can the Home Secretary confirm that slow walking is already against the law and that that is how the Metropolitan police and other police forces have already managed to stop a whole series of slow-walking incidences that have caused significant disruption for communities?
Suella Braverman
The fact that the right hon. Lady has to ask that question reflects her total misunderstanding of what we are debating here today. Of course the police have powers enshrined in legislation already, but we are trying to clarify the thresholds and boundaries of where the legal limit lies, so that they can take more robust action and respond more effectively. Perhaps if she had not looked at her phone so much she would know what we were talking about. She would also rather spend her time at the Dispatch Box playing pantomime politics than engaging with the serious issue of public safety and the right to protest.
People cannot get to work. They cannot get to school. Ambulances cannot get to patients. People cannot get to funerals. Hard-working people are paying well-earned cash to attend live sporting events, public galleries and public shows not for them to be ruined by a selfish minority.
Bob Stewart
I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for allowing me to intervene. I endorse entirely what the right hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) said. The reason for these measures is that the nature of protests on our roads—the blocking of our roads—has changed over the past few years. No one wants to impose more restrictions on anyone in our country, but what is happening now is making it impossible for normal people to have decent lives.
Suella Braverman
My right hon. Friend is absolutely right that the evolving tactics—the guerrilla tactics—that we are now seeing being deployed by these campaigners are unacceptable and the police need more clarity as to how to use their powers. The sad fact is that Labour Members would rather look after their Just Stop Oil friends and obstruct this Government from giving the police more powers. Frankly, they are on another planet if they think that they speak for the British people. They are on the wrong side of this debate and they are on the wrong side of the public.
I thank hon. Members who made powerful speeches. In particular, I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Dr Mullan) who spoke very powerfully, and with the benefit of his own experience from the frontline of policing as well, about the careful balance that is involved in tackling this issue. As he said, we need to balance rights with responsibilities. This is about protecting the public and enabling the law-abiding majority to go about their business. It is about stopping them from being impeded, obstructed, delayed, inconvenienced and frustrated. These measures are designed to support them.
I thank the right hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) for his potent words, As he said, this is about crossing a boundary. This is about making it clear that when protesters use disruptive means and deliberately seek to cause misery and disturbance through physical disruption, a line has been crossed. These measures clarify the law, so that the police can take more robust action.
There has been some mention of the coronation this afternoon. I want to put on record my thanks to the police for delivering what was the largest operation that the Metropolitan Police Service has ever led, with more than 11,000 officers, staff and volunteers. They ensured that the coronation operations were delivered successfully, safely and securely in a challenging environment. I was proud of their work and proud of the fact that they enabled millions of people to enjoy such an historic event peacefully. At the same time, they struck the right balance. When they received intelligence that indicated that groups were seeking to disrupt the coronation, including by using rape alarms to disrupt the procession, they took the requisite action that they deemed fit within the bounds of operational independence. Hundreds of individuals participated in peaceful protests in and around the coronation footprint on 6 May, including a large group of Not My King supporters in Trafalgar Square. I thank the police for their incredible effort in policing the coronation and enabling millions of people to enjoy such an important event.
The hon. Member for Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss) and the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) have, with respect, missed the point when it comes to these measures. This is not about banning protest. This is not about prohibiting freedom of assembly. No one in this House is suggesting that at all. Those are human rights, and they are protected by law. I will fiercely defend the right of anyone to exercise those rights lawfully, but they are not absolute rights; they are qualified rights, as set out in the European convention on human rights. These measures are about the balance to be struck, and they turn on the need for clarity, so that law enforcement knows where the boundary is and how to exercise their powers.
The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) spoke with characteristic alarmism, if I may say so. We have become accustomed to her doom-mongering over the years, and I will actually miss it when she leaves this House. Let me take this opportunity to thank her for her years of hard work for her constituents and for the causes about which she is so evidently passionate.
Members in this House now have a choice before them: do they support the disrupters, or are they on the side of the law-abiding majority. Are they here to help the grafters and the strivers, or to facilitate the obstructors and the fanatics? We know that Labour is here to support the militant few rather than the law-abiding majority. It is this Conservative Government who are on the side of all reasonable people across the country and on the side of common-sense policing. These measures will ensure that public order laws are clear, consistent and current, and I commend this statutory instrument to the House.
Question put.