Public Order

Yvette Cooper Excerpts

Monday 12th June 2023 Commons Chamber

[Suella Braverman]

One of the first things I did when I became Home Secretary, along with the Minister for Crime, Policing and Fire and the Prime Minister, was to meet policing leads, in the Metropolitan police and nationwide, to hear about the challenges they have been and are facing in policing protests. They have requested extra powers and extra clarity in the law.

I find it surprising and disappointing that Labour MPs are not supporting the measures before us today, given how important they are to the public and how damaging serious disruption can be to everyday life. I have been trying to think about why that would be. Has it got anything to do with the fact that the Labour party—the Leader of the Opposition and his deputy—has taken £1.5 million of donations from a businessman who bankrolls Just Stop Oil? Is it because Labour’s botched environmental policies now seem to be directed by the eco-zealots? The right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) should be embarrassed that Labour is more interested in supporting Just Stop Oil than standing up for the law-abiding majority. This Government and the police have always maintained that the powers are necessary to respond effectively to guerrilla protests.

[Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)]

Clearly, it is important that the Home Secretary gives accurate information to Parliament, so will she clarify her answer to my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Dame Diana Johnson), the Home Affairs Committee Chair, as to whether the police and the National Police Chiefs’ Council have requested the precise wording that she has put forward in these regulations? She said to the Chamber a week ago that the

“asylum initial…backlog is down by 17,000”.—[Official Report, 5 June 2023; Vol. 733, c. 557.]

She knows that that is not true and that the asylum initial backlog, which includes legacy and flow, has gone up. Will she now correct the record, as she is before the House and she knows the importance of the ministerial code and correcting any errors at the first opportunity?

[Suella Braverman]

Sadly, we see unsurprising tactics from the Labour party. Again, Labour Members seek to distract from their woeful failure to stand up for the law-abiding majority, who want us to take these measures on protesters, and to cover up the fact that they have absolutely no policy to stop the boats. It is disappointing but unsurprising.

These regulations will ensure clarity and consistency in public order legislation in the following ways. First, they clarify that the police may take into account the cumulative impact of simultaneous and repeated protests in a specific area when considering whether there is a risk. Secondly, they permit the police to consider the absolute disruption caused by a protest—in other words, their evaluation may be irrespective of the disruption that is typical in that area. Thirdly, the regulations define the term “community” to include “any group” impacted by a protest, extending beyond those in the immediate area. That definition better reflects the cross-section of the public affected by disruptive protests in cities today. Finally, the regulations align the threshold of “serious disruption” with that in the Public Order Act 2023. This definition, proposed by Lord Hope, the former deputy president of the Supreme Court, is rooted in protest case law. It was debated at length by Parliament and deemed appropriate for use in the Public Order Act 2023. It should now be incorporated into the Public Order Act 1986 to ensure consistency across the statute book.

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[Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)]

This is, at least, the Government’s fifth set of proposals on public order in the space of two years. They make the same claims about the latest set of proposals that they did about all the previous ones, and they keep coming back again and again, making all the same promises about what this piece of legislation will achieve as they did about the last one and the one before that. This is groundhog day, and we have to wonder how chaotic and incompetent this Home Secretary is that she has to keep legislating for the same things again and again.

We can see why Conservative Ministers might be worried about an organised minority of people causing disruption—people who want to protest against decisions made by the Prime Minister, who ignore all normal rules and have no respect for everyone else, causing serious disruption to the nation and the Government, lighting skip fires from Uxbridge to Selby and causing chaos in our public services, our transport system, our economy and our financial markets. Yes, to quote the Home Secretary, those disruptors are selfish; yes, the public are sick of them and yes, we have had enough of them. That is why we want to get rid of them all, not just through by-elections but through a general election.

We can also see why the Conservatives are so sensitive about extinction and rebellion. As a party, they are now so addicted to rebellion that it is taking them to the point of extinction. They should stop inflicting this chaos on everyone else. They have brought forward two new Bills on public order in the last two years, two further sets of entirely new proposals that were brought forward in the House of Lords halfway through those Bills’ passage, and now this statutory instrument. If only they had found similar time in Parliament for legislation on violence against women and girls, we might not have such disgracefully low charge rates for rape and sexual assault or such appallingly high and persistent levels of domestic abuse.

Instead, we have the chaotic repetition of the same debates and the same promises about legislation. It is total chaos—a coalition of chaos, as the Home Secretary might say herself. Indeed, she did say it when we debated the Third Reading of the Public Order Bill, which she claimed would sort everything out—and that was just eight months ago. In that debate, she accused Labour of being a

“coalition of chaos, the Guardian-reading, tofu-eating wokerati”—[Official Report, 18 October 2022; Vol. 720, c. 628.]

That is from the party that has crashed the economy and given us record inflation, the highest tax burden for 70 years, the worst train cancellations, NHS cancellations and public sector strikes in decades, and total chaos in the criminal justice system.

That party has given us three Prime Ministers, four Home Secretaries and four Chancellors in the space of 12 months, and since then three more Cabinet Ministers have been sacked, including the Deputy Prime Minister. There have been public hissy-fits today between the Prime Minister and his predecessor on the honours system, and now there are three upcoming by-elections. The Conservatives are definitely not a coalition of chaos, not least because any internal party coalition they ever had has clearly collapsed—oh, and on that bit about the wokerati, I have since discovered the Home Secretary is a vegetarian. She eats more tofu than I do!

The police need to take action against serious disruption and damaging protest tactics that cause harm and problems for others. Here in Britain, we have historic freedoms to speak out against things we disagree with, but we also have rights to be protected against serious disruption and dangerous protests by others. We have historic freedoms to object and to peacefully protest—that is part of our democracy—but blocking our roads so ambulances cannot get through is not legitimate protest. It is dangerous, irresponsible and against the law. Climbing up motorway gantries is not legitimate protest either. It is wholly unlawful and it puts lives at risk. That is why Labour supported increasing the penalties for blocking roads, and it is why we put forward measures to make it easier to get injunctions to prevent damaging protests, and measures to prevent intimidation and protest outside contraception and abortion clinics and vaccine clinics. It is why we have criticised groups such as Just Stop Oil and Extinction Rebellion for damaging protests that even put lives at risk.

The police have a serious and important job to do in a democracy—ensuring that people can go about their business, and protecting our historic freedoms—but they already have the powers to do exactly that. The Home Secretary claims that this latest measure is about slow walking, but that is already a breach of the law. Since 1986, the police have had the power to impose conditions on public processions—that is what slow walking is—and since 1980 it has been against the law to obstruct a public highway.

Indeed, the Minister for Crime, Policing and Fire, the right hon. Member for Croydon South (Chris Philp), said himself last month that

“the police are…using section 12 of the Public Order Act 1986… Following recent disruptions in the past 10 to 14 days, the roads have typically been cleared within 10 minutes”.—[Official Report, 9 May 2023; Vol. 732, c. 210.]

The Met said just this week that

“putting in conditions from Section 12 of the Public Order Act has encouraged protesters to exit the highway within minutes; from the 156 slow marches that have taken place, 125 Section 12…conditions have been imposed”,

including 86 arrests where people were not complying. The chief constable of Greater Manchester police said:

“We have the powers to act and we should do so very quickly.”

However, instead of working with the police so that they have the training, resources and support to appropriately enforce the law, the Home Secretary just keeps coming back to Parliament waving another bit of legislation to chase a few more headlines and distract people from the fact that the Government are hellbent on causing chaos and disruption for the British people. The Government bring this statutory instrument before the House claiming that it is to clarify the law, but instead it makes it even more confusing. They failed to bring it in through the normal parliamentary legislative processes so that it could be scrutinised and amended. Heaven knows, we have had enough primary legislation when the Government have had the opportunity to introduce it.

The regulations refer, for example, to “normal traffic congestion” now being a significant factor. What does that mean? Does it mean that if roadworks are causing a local traffic jam and some protesters happen to cross the road, they can be arrested for the traffic jam? The regulations redefine “serious disruption” to mean everything that “may” be “more than minor”—may. Does the Home Secretary really think that the police should be able to ban anything that may—only may—create more than minor noise, for example?

Once again, the regulations are not about the seriously disruptive Just Stop Oil protests, which are rightly already against the law. Instead, they give the police the power to prevent any and every campaign group from protesting outside a local library or swimming pool that is about to be closed because it “may” be a little “more than minor”. That makes it harder for law-abiding, peaceful campaigners who want to work with the police to organise a limited protest—something that we should all want people to do—all for the sake of the Home Secretary getting a few more headlines. She says that she wants to defend free speech and our pluralist free society very robustly indeed—but only if it is speech that she agrees with, and only if it is not too noisy. Once again, instead of focusing on the damaging disruption, which we all believe should be stopped and on which we want the Government to work with the police to sort things out, the Government are simply making it possible to go after peaceful protesters and passers-by, even though that is not the British tradition.

The Home Secretary is now so obsessed with serious disruption because she and her party are busy creating it. That party has become addicted to causing serious disruption in politics, our economy, financial markets, workplaces, our transport system, our NHS, our public life and our communities, and has no idea what stability and security looks like because it is too busy seriously disrupting itself. So yes, the country is sick of the serious disruption that the Conservative party is causing. Yes, we do want to put an end to the serious disruption and chaos that is letting everyone down, by kicking the Conservatives out of office. This is not about Just Stop Oil; it is about a Conservative party that has just stopped governing. That is why we need a general election now.

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[Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con)]

May I congratulate the shadow Home Secretary on spending more time scrolling through her phone while sitting on the Front Bench than she did standing at the Dispatch Box making her speech? I regard that as a discourtesy to the House and to Members of the House.

I merely wish to remark on a paragraph in The Economist last week. It reads:

“Police in the Netherlands arrested 1,500 climate-change protesters and deployed water cannon when they refused to leave a motorway they had blocked in The Hague. Forty are to be prosecuted.”

I read today in the newspapers that there has been concern that these changes will mean that the police will decide what protests will be able to take place and that they will be able to choose. There is always choice on the issue of a protest. Protesters can choose to protest in such a way that the sick can still get to hospital, and people can still get to work and earn a living. Equally—[Interruption.] I am glad that I now have the attention of the shadow Home Secretary; it is quite an achievement that she can lift her head up from her phone. Equally, the Metropolitan police also have a choice as to how they police these protests and the decisions they can take.

[Yvette Cooper]

rose—

[Paul Maynard]

No, I am not giving way, because the shadow Home Secretary has not paid attention to anything anyone else has said in this Chamber. On that note, I am resuming my seat.

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[Suella Braverman]

I thank all right hon. and hon. Members for their contributions in what has been a fruitful and lively debate. I will not spend too much time responding to Labour’s position. The response of the shadow Secretary of State was almost totally devoid of anything serious on the issue of public order. She would rather spend her time in the Chamber glued to her phone, as my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) remarked.

[Yvette Cooper]

Can the Home Secretary confirm that slow walking is already against the law and that that is how the Metropolitan police and other police forces have already managed to stop a whole series of slow-walking incidences that have caused significant disruption for communities?

[Suella Braverman]

The fact that the right hon. Lady has to ask that question reflects her total misunderstanding of what we are debating here today. Of course the police have powers enshrined in legislation already, but we are trying to clarify the thresholds and boundaries of where the legal limit lies, so that they can take more robust action and respond more effectively. Perhaps if she had not looked at her phone so much she would know what we were talking about. She would also rather spend her time at the Dispatch Box playing pantomime politics than engaging with the serious issue of public safety and the right to protest.

People cannot get to work. They cannot get to school. Ambulances cannot get to patients. People cannot get to funerals. Hard-working people are paying well-earned cash to attend live sporting events, public galleries and public shows not for them to be ruined by a selfish minority.