The Minister for Immigration (Mr Robert Goodwill)
I thank the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston for setting out her Committee’s position very clearly. That was very helpful in setting the context.
In relation to the point of order raised by my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset, I understand that the premature approval of the four measures last week was due to a mistake, possibly made in this building, not in the Home Office, but I take full responsibility for the fact that we had to exercise our opt-out before we had this debate. I make it clear, as Mr Evans did, that I will be listening carefully to the arguments that are made, although on this issue I would have to hear arguments stronger than any other argument that I have heard in this place to change my view on these four proposals. However, as the Committee will know, we did opt into some of the proposals in this field—in particular, the Eurodac regulation, which is helpful in terms of sharing fingerprint and biometric data.
The Government are not deploying delaying tactics on these measures, but I note the Committee’s concerns regarding the timing of the debate. Unfortunately, there is sometimes pressure to debate Government business, which means that opt-in debates cannot be scheduled as quickly as we would like.
I thank the European Scrutiny Committee for recommending these important measures for debate. The four measures under consideration—the asylum procedures and qualification regulations, which are two separate regulations, the reform of the reception conditions directive, and the Union resettlement framework regulation—represent the second wave of a package of proposals to reform the common European asylum system, or CEAS. The European Commission put forward a wide-ranging package of reforms to CEAS in a communication published in April. The House has already debated the Dublin IV, Eurodac and EU agency for asylum measures in the first wave of the Commission’s proposed reforms.
The Government have already decided not to opt into the four measures being considered today. I apologise again to the Committee for the fact that it has not had a chance to debate the proposal before the opt-in deadline, although I suspect that few would argue with the wisdom of not doing so, particularly in the light of Brexit.
The new proposals on qualification, asylum procedures and reception conditions reform the package of asylum directives that was adopted between 2011 and 2013 as part of the second phase of CEAS. In relation to the asylum measures, as hon. Members are probably aware, the UK did not participate in the directives of 2011 and 2013 owing to concerns about the limits that that would place on our national system. We remain bound by the first phase of CEAS directives from 2003 and 2005.
The qualification and asylum procedures proposals reflect a shift by the Commission from setting standards for asylum procedure and criteria in a directive, which permits member states some flexibility in transposing the provisions into national law, to a regulation, which limits member states’ ability to set their own national rules in accordance with national interests. That would be a substantial change for the UK, given that we did not participate in the directives of 2011 and 2013.
However, the migration crisis has highlighted the challenges presented by large-scale secondary movements, and I welcome the proposals’ overarching aim of discouraging abuse and secondary movements. The Government are and remain committed to running a high-quality asylum service. However, elements of the proposals under consideration differ from UK practice—for example, in relation to both the duration of leave to be granted to beneficiaries of international protection, and access to the labour market. I would not wish to limit the flexibility of the United Kingdom system in those areas by agreeing to the provisions set out by the European Union. Furthermore, should we wish to align ourselves with the EU on those matters in future, we could do so through domestic legislation.
It is clearly necessary to develop a European asylum and migration framework that controls illegal migration, deters abuse and prevents unwarranted secondary movement. However, that does not mean that the Government agree with all the Commission’s suggested policy options. Although we respect the fact that our European partners may wish to pursue greater commonality in their asylum systems, we remain of the view that the functioning of national asylum systems is a sovereign issue. I see no reason to change our approach from that taken for the second phase of these directives, and we have therefore decided not to opt in.
On the proposed Union resettlement framework regulation, the Government have been clear that we consider resettlement schemes to be best operated at the national level. We are of the view that the stated reasons for action at an EU level, such as alleviating pressures on countries hosting a disproportionate number of refugees, gaining influence in policy dialogues with third countries or improving the resettlement process, can equally be achieved through close co-operation between international partners operating national resettlement schemes. National schemes also allow resettlement efforts to be aligned with the domestic and international priorities of individual member states. For those reasons, the Government have decided not to opt in to the measures.
The Chair
We now have until 5.30 pm for questions to the Minister. I remind Members that questions should be brief. Subject to my discretion, it is open to a Member to ask related supplementary questions.
Mr Goodwill
The usual channels are particularly in the frame for this one—although it was not spotted by those who otherwise spot these things.
Mr Rees-Mogg
It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Evans, even if that pleasure is slightly tempered by the fact that the debate may well serve no purpose. I ask my hon. Friend the Minister one question: can one draw any understanding of the Government’s negotiating position on Brexit from decisions on opt-ins—or not opting in? As those negotiations proceed, is this something that we will see guiding our policy in the areas in which we may seek further commonality with the European Union?
Mr Goodwill
I thank my hon. Friend for his question and for his work as a member of the European Scrutiny Committee. Although I am reluctant to disagree with him on the Committee’s not serving a purpose, I have to say that what is said here could cause the Government to opt into the measure at a later date. However, I rather suspect that the debate will stiffen my view that we have made the right decision.
My hon. Friend tempts me into the area of Brexit negotiations. I suspect you might pull me up were I persuaded to go into that area, Mr Evans. All these matters are under consideration. As I said in my opening remarks, we feel that they are best determined at a national level, which is even more important as we approach the era in which we are no longer members of the European Union.
Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (SNP)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Evans. Going back to the points of order raised at the beginning of proceedings, will the Minister explain why we are debating the measures not only after the proverbial horse has bolted, but after the deadline for opting in? I appreciate that the former may be owing to human error, but the latter treats Parliament with a fair dose of contempt.
Mr Goodwill
I have already tendered my apology for the matter having been decided before it could be debated. Indeed, I mentioned the logjam of measures that are coming forward and the pressure on parliamentary business in some cases. I repeat my unreserved apology for this not having been brought forward sooner, but no colleague has raised with me a concern that we have made the wrong decision. I hope that the debate and the questions will give Committee members the opportunity to explore other aspects of the four measures before us.
Nigel Huddleston (Mid Worcestershire) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Evans—for the first time, I think. Given that some funding has already been allocated, will there be a financial loss to the UK from not opting into the resettlement proposals?
Mr Goodwill
We do not expect any funding that has already been agreed to be affected by our not opting into the regulation. The UK has already been allocated funding from the asylum, migration and integration fund through to the financial year 2019. In any event, the UK may have left the European Union before the regulation comes into effect. No EU funding has been allocated to the Syrian vulnerable person resettlement scheme, which is our primary way of delivering our obligations for resettlement, since the scheme’s expansion.
Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Evans. The Minister has made it clear a couple of times that he does not think he will change his views, but will listen none the less. He emphasised that his view was that, on these matters, we should be sovereign, and that his Government would not wish to opt in, and he asked for retrospective agreement again. We also have the matter of premature approval and a logjam to deal with. Even though we have not finished this debate, he seems confident that he will not change his views. How can we hold the Government to account if this is how the procedures and systems work?
Mr Goodwill
I repeat my apology, but I would certainly be interested to learn, perhaps from a supplementary question from the Scottish National party, whether it believes that we should have opted into any of the four measures.
We in this House have the power to pass legislation, so even if we do not opt into measures, we can take our own approach to some of them. Indeed, looking at our successful roll-out of the Syrian vulnerable person resettlement scheme and the other schemes in the area, as well as our long-standing gateway and mandate scheme, I believe that we are stepping up to the mark with our responsibilities. EU legislation would not add anything in that regard.
Mr Rees-Mogg
I thank the Minister for his apology. I think he has made the right decision, albeit in the wrong way. I note that the Government are doing considerably better than the last Government, and very considerably better than the coalition Government, in bringing forward debates in European Committees, though I think one debate is still outstanding from a recommendation in January 2013. Although that is not satisfactory, the situation is not as bad as it has been.
Mr Goodwill
My hon. Friend will know that the treaty of Lisbon says a lot about giving national Parliaments more power and more say over these things. It is yet to be made apparent how that will be rolled out across the European Union. In the meantime, this Parliament remains sovereign in the UK, and after Brexit we will have even more sovereignty to exercise on behalf of the people of the United Kingdom.
Mr Jonathan Djanogly (Huntingdon) (Con)
Has the Minister considered whether there are any negative implications of not opting in?
Mr Goodwill
Obviously, we continue to observe a watching brief. Should the Government, at any time, decide to opt in, that will be possible, although time is limited, given the Brexit negotiations. I continue to work closely with other member states, particularly those that are under pressure, such as France, Italy and Greece. The application of these four measures will not impact on the priorities of this Government or, indeed, this House. The timetable for final agreement may well be protracted, and we may well have left the European Union before the measures take effect.
Kate Green
Further to that response, are there any aspects of the proposals that the Minister would wish to adopt into UK domestic law, or legislate for in UK domestic law after Brexit?
Mr Goodwill
We already have a number of measures on the statute book that address how we deal with asylum seekers, and how we approach the tremendous need, particularly in the areas around Syria, to bring people here. We are using the Syrian vulnerable peoples scheme, and the other scheme bringing 3,000 children and their families from the wider middle east. I see no reason to opt into these measures. The freedom that not opting in gives us means more options and opportunities to step up to the mark and meet our international obligations.
The Chair
If no more Members wish to ask questions, we will proceed to the debate on the motion.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That the Committee takes note of European Union Document No. 11316/16 and Addendum, a Proposal for a Regulation of the European Parliament and of the Council on standards for the qualification of third country nationals or stateless persons as beneficiaries of international protection, for a uniform status for refugees or for persons eligible for subsidiary protection and for the content of the protection granted and amending Council Directive 2003/109/EC of 25 November 2003 concerning the status of third country nationals who are long term residents; further takes note of European Union Document No. 11317/16 and Addenda 1 to 2, a Proposal for a Regulation of the European Parliament and of the Council establishing a common procedure for international protection in the Union and repealing Directive 2013/32/EU; further takes note of European Union Document No. 11313/16, a Proposal for a Regulation of the European Parliament and of the Council on establishing a Union Resettlement Framework amending Regulation (EU) No. 516/2014; further takes note of European Union Document No. 11318/16, a Proposal for a Directive of the European Parliament and of the Council laying down standards for the reception of applicants for international protection (recast); endorses the Government's decision not to opt in to the above proposals under Protocol 21 on the Position of the United Kingdom and Ireland in respect of the Area of Freedom, Security and Justice annexed to the EU Treaties; notes that the Government is able to opt-in post-adoption; and supports the Government's intention to continue to support other Member States on asylum matters.—(Mr Goodwill.)
Mr Goodwill
I thank hon. Members for their contributions to this debate. Irrespective of the opt-in decision under discussion, we remain committed to addressing the migration crisis and working with the EU and member states to tackle this high-priority issue.
The hon. Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington, the shadow Home Secretary, talked about “waves” of migration. When discussing these issues, one needs to bear in mind what pull factors can lead those “waves”. Indeed, many of the people who find themselves in unseaworthy boats, either in the Aegean sea or in the Mediterranean, are responding to pull factors that can result in the people traffickers being able to carry out their particularly horrible business.
The hon. Lady is absolutely right when she refers to the most vulnerable people. Having visited refugee camps in Jordan, I would say that the most vulnerable people are those in the camps—indeed, the people in the berm on the Syrian border—and not necessarily those people in Greece, Italy and France, which are safe countries.
As a former Member of the European Parliament, I believe that the United Kingdom post-Brexit will still be in the European family; it is just that we will no longer be sleeping in the spare bedroom. Indeed, the UK will be able to take a lead in Europe and will not necessarily be limited by the speed of the slowest, which is all too often the problem in getting agreement at European level.
Kate Green
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. I am very curious about how he thinks we will be able to lead the way when we are out there on our own. Also, does he agree that the way to have influence with third countries, which would be an important part of the solution to this appalling global crisis, would be to act in concert with our European neighbours?
Mr Goodwill
I would be more inclined to take lessons from our EU friends and colleagues if they all stepped up to the mark, as we have done by spending 0.7% of our income on overseas aid. We are the second biggest donor to the region around Syria—£2.3 billion of aid is going in. That shows that we put our money where our mouth is and do not just talk about making that commitment.
Kate Green
Does the Minister agree that our European neighbours might be more impressed if we took refugees and asylum seekers on the same scale as Germany, which has taken several hundred thousand, or Greece and Italy, which are forced to deal with being the point of arrival for many people, and are unable to cope with that?
Mr Goodwill
We are taking refugees from the region under the two schemes that we have put in place, as well as the long-standing scheme. That does not contribute to the pull factor that results in people traffickers carrying out their business, and indeed, sadly, in fatalities and people meeting a watery grave in the Mediterranean and Aegean seas.
Mr Rees-Mogg
The policy followed by some of our European allies has been absolutely disastrous. The British Government are the one Government who have got it right: they are helping in the region, rather than encouraging people to take extraordinarily dangerous journeys. The Government really deserve to be supported in that.
Mr Goodwill
My hon. Friend, as so often, is absolutely right. Let us not forget that the UK remains one of the largest member state contributors to Greece’s efforts to implement the EU-Turkey agreement. We offered 75 personnel initially and a further 40 this month. The UK has deployed a Border Force search-and-rescue cutter to the Aegean and contributed assets to the NATO mission, including the HMS Mersey, an offshore patrol vessel. We contributed £2 million to the assisted voluntary return project through the International Organisation for Migration office in Greece from January 2014 to 2016. The UK has allocated up to £34 million to the humanitarian response in Greece, including £8 million to the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, £11.5 million to the Start non-governmental organisations, more than £1 million to the IOM, and more than £1.8 million of essential supplies, including more than 3,100 tents for more than 15,600 people, 60,000 blankets, 8,000 sleeping bags, 8,000 sleeping mats, and other basic items. I do not call that not standing up for people in need. We have contributed vessels and resources to Italy to support efforts in the central Mediterranean, including a chartered Border Force vessel as part of Frontex’s Operation Triton, and one officer in the Rome maritime rescue co-ordination centre. The UK has also directly supported the German Government with returns.
The Government recognise that there are problems with elements of CEAS, as has been highlighted by the migration crisis. It is necessary to develop an asylum and migration framework in Europe that works to control illegal migration, deters abuse and prevents secondary movement. However, that does not mean that the Government agree with all the Commission’s suggested policy options, or indeed that they are in the UK’s national interest.
I recognise that there are positive elements in these proposals, but not opting in means that we can retain the flexibility and sovereignty of the UK system and provides the UK with greater scope to continue tackling abuse of that system. The SNP raised the point that the new asylum procedure regulation would provide applicants with a right to a personal interview during the asylum process. That conflicts with current UK practice, which provides for an interview to be omitted when an application is made merely to frustrate a removal decision.
Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)
The Minister said that he thought some elements of the proposals that we have opted out of were positive. Will he indicate which, and how the UK will be able to take those positive opportunities in the future?
Mr Goodwill
I have already said that our failure to opt in does not obviate the possibility that we can participate in some of the schemes. I have already mentioned what we are doing in Italy and Greece. The recent operation following the clearance of the Calais camps shows that we have been able to deliver on that.
Let me give another example of the implications of not opting into the proposal. On the reception conditions directive, the Commission proposes reducing the time limit for access to the labour market from nine to six months. In the UK, asylum seekers are allowed to work only if their claim has been outstanding for more than 12 months through no fault of their own. The Government policy on access to the labour market also provides permission to work only in jobs on the shortage occupation list published by the Home Office.
As I am sure hon. Members are aware, we already participate in various schemes, including the Dublin III process, under which large numbers of people have been brought to the UK. The Government are providing more than £70 million in response to the wider Mediterranean refugee crisis. The UK has also established a £10 million refugee children fund to support the needs of vulnerable refugee and migrant children arriving in Europe.
The UK has also, as I have mentioned, committed to resettling 20,000 Syrians—we are on track to do that by the end of the Parliament—as well as 3,000 vulnerable children and family members by 2020, in addition to our gateway and mandate schemes. We already share best practice with member states through resettlement schemes.
The proposals under consideration today are still being negotiated. Previous iterations have been subject to extensive negotiation. The Government will continue to monitor the negotiations and consider areas of convergence and divergence. It is, however, the Government’s position that it is necessary to develop an asylum and migration framework in Europe that works to control illegal migration, deters abuse and prevents secondary movement. This does not mean that the Government agree with all the policy options that the Commission suggests, or that they are right for the UK. The opt-in decisions were made fully in line with the national interest.
Question put and agreed to.