Enterprise Bill [ Lords ] (Eighth sitting)
(8 years, 9 months ago)
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The Chair
Welcome back to the final stage of our Committee proceedings.
New Clause 21
Extended Sunday opening hours and Sunday working
“(1) The Sunday Trading Act 1994 is amended in accordance with subsections (2) to (4).
(2) In paragraph 2 of Schedule 1 (which restricts the opening hours of large shops on Sundays), after sub-paragraph (3) insert—
“(3A) Sub-paragraph (1) does not apply in relation to the opening of a large shop during any other period on a Sunday in accordance with a consent notice published under paragraph 2A (subject to sub-paragraph (4)).”
(3) After that paragraph insert—
“Consent notices published by Sunday trading authorities
2A (1) The Sunday trading authority for an area may publish a notice (a “consent notice”) in accordance with this paragraph providing for large shops in the authority’s area to be permitted to do either or both of the following—
(a) to open on a Sunday for a continuous period of whatever number of hours is specified in the notice (in addition to the continuous period of six hours mentioned in paragraph 2(3));
(b) to open on a Sunday at specified times beginning earlier than, or ending later than, the times mentioned in paragraph 2(3).
(2) A consent notice published by a Sunday trading authority may apply in relation to the whole or any part of the authority’s area.
(3) A Sunday trading authority may, by publishing a further notice, vary or revoke a consent notice that applies in relation to its area.
(4) Before varying or revoking a consent notice under sub-paragraph (3), a Sunday trading authority must give reasonable notice to occupiers of large shops whose opening hours on Sundays would be affected by the variation or revocation.
(5) Publication of a notice under this paragraph may take whatever form the authority publishing it thinks appropriate for the purpose of bringing the notice to the attention of occupiers of large shops in the area to which the notice relates.
(6) Subject to sub-paragraph (7), the Sunday trading authority for an area is the local authority for the area.
(7) In relation to the area of Greater London, the Sunday trading authority is the Mayor of London acting on behalf of the Greater London Authority.”
(4) Accordingly—
(a) in paragraph 2 of Schedule 1 (restrictions on Sunday opening)—
(i) in sub-paragraph (1), for “and (3)” substitute “, (3) and (3A)”;
(ii) in sub-paragraph (4), for “exemption conferred by sub-paragraph (3) above does” substitute “exemptions conferred by sub-paragraphs (3) and (3A) do”;
(b) in paragraph 6 of that Schedule (duty to display notice), after “sub-paragraph (3)” insert “or (3A)”;
(c) in paragraph 8 of that Schedule (defence to an offence of contravening opening restrictions), after “paragraph 2(3)” insert “or (3A)”;
(d) in paragraph 1(a) of Schedule 3 (loading and unloading at large shops on Sunday morning: application), after “paragraph 2(3)” insert “or (3A)”.
(5) Schedule (Sunday opening hours: rights of shop workers), which contains amendments of employment legislation relating to the rights of shop workers to opt out of working on Sunday, has effect.”—(Brandon Lewis.)
This new Clause amends the Sunday Trading Act 1994, giving powers to local areas to extend Sunday trading hours for large shops (with a retail floor area greater than 280 square metres). The extended hours can apply to the whole or part of the local area. The new Clause also introduces a new Schedule to the Bill containing amendments to the Employment Rights Act 1996 and the Employment Act 2002 in relation to Sunday working.
Brought up, read the First time, and Question proposed (this day), That the clause be read a Second time.
The Chair
I remind the Committee that with this we are discussing the following:
Government new schedule 1—Sunday opening hours: rights of shop workers.
“Schedule
Sunday opening hours: rights of shop workers
Employment Rights Act 1996
1 The Employment Rights Act 1996 is amended as follows.
2 In section 41 (opted-out shop workers and betting workers), for subsection (3) substitute—
(3) In this Act “notice period”, in relation to an opted-out shop worker or an opted-out betting worker, means—
(a) in the case of an opted-out shop worker who does shop work in or about a large shop, the period of one month beginning with the day on which the opting-out notice concerned was given;
(b) in any other case, the period of three months beginning with that day.
This subsection is subject to sections 41D(2) and 42(2).”
3 After section 41 insert—
“41A Notice of objection by shop workers to working additional hours on Sunday
(1) A shop worker may at any time give to his or her employer a written notice, signed and dated by the shop worker, to the effect that he or she objects to doing shop work for additional hours on Sunday.
(2) In this Part—
“additional hours” means any number of hours of shop work that a shop worker is (or could be) required to work under a contract of employment on Sunday that are(or would be) in excess of the shop worker’s normal Sunday working hours;
“objection notice” means a notice given under subsection (1).
(3) The “normal Sunday working hours” of a shop worker are to be calculated in accordance with regulations.
(4) Regulations under this section may provide—
(a) for the calculation to be determined (for example) by reference to the average number of hours that the shop worker has worked on Sundays during a period specified or described in the regulations;
(b) for a calculation of the kind mentioned in paragraph (a) to be varied in special cases;
(c) for the right to give an objection notice not to be exercisable in special cases (and subsection (1) is subject to provision made by virtue of this paragraph).
(5) Provision under subsection (4)( b) or (c) may, in particular, include provision—
(a) about how the calculation of normal Sunday working hours is to be made in the case of a shop worker who has not been employed for a sufficient period of time to enable a calculation to be made as otherwise provided for in the regulations;
(b) for the right to give an objection notice not to be exercisable by such a shop worker until he or she has completed a period of employment specified or described in the regulations.
(6) But regulations under this section may not include provision preventing a shop worker who has been continuously employed under a contract of employment for a period of one year or more from giving to the employer an objection notice.
(7) Regulations under this section may make different provision for different purposes.
41B Explanatory statement: persons who become shop workers
(1) This section applies where a person becomes a shop worker who, under a contract of employment, is or may be required to do shop work on Sundays.
(2) The employer must give to the shop worker a written statement informing the shop worker of the following rights—
(a) the right to object to working on Sundays by giving the employer an opting-out notice (if section 40 applies to the shop worker);
(b) the right to object to doing shop work for additional hours on Sundays by giving the employer an objection notice.
(3) The statement must be given before the end of the period of two months beginning with the day on which the person becomes a shop worker as mentioned in subsection (1).
(4) An employer does not fail to comply with subsections (2) and (3) in a case where, before the end of the period referred to in subsection (3), the shop worker has given to the employer an opting-out notice (and that notice has not been withdrawn).
(5) A statement under this section must comply with such requirements as to form and content as regulations may provide.
(6) Regulations under this section may make different provision for different purposes.
41C Explanatory statement: shop workers at commencement date
(1) This section applies where—
(a) under a contract of employment a shop worker is or may be required to do shop work on Sundays, and
(b) the shop worker was employed under that contract on the day before the commencement date.
(2) The shop worker’s employer must give to the shop worker a written statement informing the shop worker of the rights mentioned in section 41B(2).
(3) The statement must be given before the end of the period of two months beginning with the commencement date.
(4) An employer does not fail to comply with subsections (2) and (3) in a case where, before the end of the period referred to in subsection (3), the shop worker has given to the employer an opting-out notice (and that notice has not been withdrawn).
(5) A statement under this section must comply with such requirements as to form and content as regulations may provide.
(6) Regulations under this section may make different provision for different purposes.
(7) In this section “commencement date” means the date appointed by regulations under section38 of the Enterprise Act 2016 for the coming into force of section (Extended Sunday opening hour and Sunday working)(5) of, and Schedule (Sunday opening hours: rights of shop workers) to, that Act.
41D Failure to give explanatory statement under section 41B or 41C
(1) This section applies if an employer fails to give to a shop worker a written statement in accordance with—
(a) section 41B(2) and (3), or
(b) section 41C(2) and (3).
(2) If the shop worker gives to the employer an opting-out notice, the notice period under section 41(3) that applies in relation to the shop worker is varied as follows—
(a) if the notice period under that provision would have been one month, it becomes 7 days instead;
(b) if the notice period under that provision would have been three months, it becomes one month instead.
(3) If the shop worker gives to the employer an objection notice, the relevant period under section 43ZA(2) that applies in relation to the shop worker is varied as follows—
(a) if the relevant period under that provision would have been one month, it becomes 7 days instead;
(b) if the relevant period under that provision would have been three months, it becomes one month instead.”
4 (1) Section 42 (explanatory statement) is amended as follows.
(2) In the heading, after “statement” insert “: betting workers”.
(3) In subsection (1) omit “shop worker or”.
(4) In subsection (2)—
(a) in paragraph (a) omit “shop worker or”;
(b) in paragraph (b)—
(i) after “the” omit “shop worker or”;
(ii) omit “an opted-out shop worker or”.
(5) In subsection (3) omit “shop worker or”.
(6) Omit subsection (4).
(7) In subsection (6)—
(a) for “forms” substitute “form”;
(b) for “subsections (4) and (5)” substitute “subsection (5)”.
5 In the heading of section 43, after “work” insert “: opting-out notices”.
6 After section 43 (in Part 4) insert—
“43ZA Contractual requirements relating to working additional hours on Sundays: objection notices
(1) Where a shop worker gives to his or her employer an objection notice, any agreement entered into between the shop worker and the employer becomes unenforceable to the extent that—
(a) it requires the shop worker to do shop work for additional hours on Sunday after the end of the relevant period, or
(b) it requires the employer to provide the shop worker with shop work for additional hours on Sunday after the end of that period.
(2) The “relevant period” is—
(a) in the case of a shop worker who is or may be required to do shop work in or about a large shop, the period of one month beginning with the day on which the objection notice is given;
(b) in any other case, the period of three months beginning with that day.
This subsection is subject to section 41D(3).
(3) A shop worker who has given an objection notice may revoke the notice by giving a further written notice to the employer.
(4) Where—
(a) a shop worker gives to the employer a notice under subsection (3), and
(b) after giving the notice the shop worker expressly agrees with the employer to do shop work for additional hours on Sunday (whether on Sundays generally or on a particular Sunday),
the contract of employment between the shop worker and the employer is to be taken to be varied to the extent necessary to give effect to the terms of the agreement.
(5) The reference in subsection (1) to any agreement—
(a) includes the contract of employment under which the shop worker is employed immediately before giving the objection notice;
(b) includes an agreement of a kind mentioned in subsection (4), or a contract of employment as taken to be varied under that subsection, only if an objection notice is given in relation to the working of additional hours under that agreement or contract as varied.
43ZB Interpretation
(1) In this Part—
“additional hours” has the meaning given in section 41A(2);
“large shop” means a shop which has a relevant floor area exceeding 280 square metres;
“objection notice” has the meaning given in section 41A(2);
“regulations” means regulations made by the Secretary of State.
(2) In the definition of “large shop” in subsection (1)—
(a) “shop” means any premises where there is carried on a trade or business consisting wholly or mainly of the sale of goods;
(b) “relevant floor area” means the internal floor area of so much of the large shop in question as consists of or is comprised in a building.
(3) For the purposes of subsection (2), any part of the shop which is not used for the serving of customers in connection with the sale or display of goods is to be disregarded.
(4) The references in subsections (2) and (3) to the sale of goods does not include—
(a) the sale of meals, refreshments or alcohol (within the meaning of the Licensing Act 2003) for consumption on the premises on which they are sold, or
(b) the sale of meals or refreshments prepared to order for immediate consumption off those premises.”
7 After section 45 insert—
“45ZA Sunday working for shop workers: additional hours
(1) Subsection (2) applies where a shop worker has given an objection notice to his or her employer and the notice has not been withdrawn.
(2) The shop worker has the right not to be subjected to any detriment by any act, or any deliberate failure to act, by the employer done on the ground that the shop worker refused (or proposed to refuse) to do shop work for additional hours on Sunday or on a particular Sunday.
(3) Subsection (2) does not apply to anything done on the ground that the shop worker refused (or proposed to refuse) to do shop work for additional hours on any Sunday or Sundays falling before the end of the relevant period.
(4) A shop worker has the right not to be subjected to any detriment by any act, or any deliberate failure to act, by his or her employer on the ground that the shop worker gave (or proposed to give) an objection notice to the employer.
(5) Subsections (2) and (4) do not apply where the detriment in question amounts to dismissal (within the meaning of Part 10).
(6) For the purposes of this section, a shop worker who does not do shop work for additional hours on Sunday or on a particular Sunday is not to be regarded as having been subjected to any detriment by—
(a) a failure to pay remuneration in respect of doing shop work for additional hours on Sunday which the shop worker has not done, or
(7) Subsections (8) and (9) apply where—
(a) an employer offers to pay a sum specified in the offer to a shop worker if he or she agrees to do shop work for additional hours on Sunday or on a particular Sunday, and
(b) the shop worker—
(i) has given an objection notice to the employer that has not been withdrawn, or
(ii) is not obliged under a contract of employment to do shop work for additional hours on Sunday.
(8) A shop worker to whom the offer is not made is not to be regarded for the purposes of this section as having been subjected to any detriment by any failure—
(a) to make the offer to the shop worker, or
(b) to pay the shop worker the sum specified in the offer.
(9) A shop worker who does not accept the offer is not to be regarded for the purposes of this section as having been subjected to any detriment by any failure to pay the shop worker the sum specified in the offer.
(10) In this section—
“additional hours” and “objection notice” have the meanings given by section 41A(2);
“relevant period” means the period determined by section 43ZA(2) (but subject to section 41D(3)).”
8 After section 101 insert—
“101ZA Shop workers who refuse to work additional hours on Sunday
(1) Subsection (2) applies where a shop worker has given an objection notice that has not been withdrawn and he or she is dismissed.
(2) The shop worker is to be regarded for the purposes of this Part as unfairly dismissed if the reason (or the principal reason) for the dismissal is that he or she refused, or proposed to refuse, to do shop work for additional hours on Sunday or on a particular Sunday.
(3) Subsection (2) does not apply where the reason (or principal reason) for the dismissal is that the shop worker refused (or proposed to refuse) to do shop work for additional hours on any Sunday or Sundays falling before the end of the relevant period.
(4) A shop worker who is dismissed is to be regarded for the purposes of this Part as unfairly dismissed if the reason (or principal reason) for the dismissal is that the worker gave (or proposed to give) an objection notice to the employer.
(5) In this section—
“additional hours” and “objection notice” have the meanings given by section 41A(2);
“relevant period” means the period determined by section 43ZA(2) (but subject to section 41D(3)).”
9 In section 236 (orders and regulations), in subsection (3) after “27B,” insert “41A that include provision under subsection (4)(c) of that section,”.
Employment Act 2002
10 In section 38 of the Employment Act 2002 (failure to give statement of employment particulars etc)—
(a) in subsection (2)(b), after “change)” insert “or under section 41B or 41C of that Act (duty to give a written statement in relation to rights not to work on Sunday)”;
(b) in subsection (3)(b), after “1996” insert “or under section 41B or 41C of that Act”.”
This new Schedule contains amendments to employment legislation. The amendments: (a) shorten the notice period for opting out of Sunday work in the case of shop workers at large shops, (b) confer a new right to object to working additional hours on Sunday, (c) require employers to give statements explaining those rights, (d) confer protections against detriment and unfair dismissal for refusing to work additional hours on Sunday, and (e) provide for fines in tribunal proceedings if there is a failure to give explanatory statements.
Amendment (a) to new schedule 1, after paragraph 4(4)(b) insert—
“(c) in the words after paragraph (b), omit “shop worker or””.
This is a technical amendment of NS1 which removes a further reference to a shop worker from section 42 of the Employment Rights Act 1996 (as that section is to apply only to betting workers as a consequence of other amendments made by this New Schedule).
Amendment (b) to new schedule 1, in new section 43ZB(4)(a), after “2003” insert
“or, in relation to Scotland, the Licensing (Scotland) Act 2005 (asp 16)”.
This is a technical amendment that provides for a definition of “alcohol” in relation to Scotland by reference to the relevant legislation of the Scottish Parliament.
Government amendments 76 and 77.
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
Thank you very much, Sir David. It is wonderful to hear Government Members welcoming me so warmly back to my feet this afternoon. We made early inroads into the topic of Sunday trading. I pointed out the Government’s failure to publish an impact assessment before we got to this stage. It is not the first time in our proceedings that we have been missing important information before discussing amendments or clauses. We are operating without some of the facts, which is regrettable on top of the delays that I referred to before lunch. Many Members were unaware that Sunday trading would be before us. It was first announced on Second Reading that it would be a part of the Bill.
What a way to proceed. We have to wonder what is behind a very late and fundamental change to the Bill. It is the most controversial part of the legislation. It has far-reaching consequences for the business practices and livelihoods of thousands of shopkeepers and their staff, the staff of large retailers, families, communities and faith groups across the country. I spoke on Tuesday about the suspicious neutering of the pub code, as Lord Mendelsohn described the consultation that the Government published on the code.
The way in which the Government have attempted to change Sunday trading is certainly suspicious, but it goes way beyond neutering when describing the impact on smaller retailers, shopkeepers and their families. I suspect that the Churches and others who want to keep Sunday special would say that abandoning the Sunday trading compromise agreed 22 years ago amounts to an all-out assault that goes way beyond the term “neutering”.
Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) (Lab)
My hon. Friend is making an important point. The Churches are very vocal in their campaign to keep Sunday special, but is he aware that a huge number of people of no faith also want to keep Sunday special? They need to be highlighted as much as those who for religious reasons wish to keep the day special.
Bill Esterson
I completely agree. The matter concerns not only people of faith, but everybody in this country. It is important to have one day a week when the pace of life is less hectic so that we are not on a 24/7 treadmill of consumerism and taking every opportunity to buy goods in our high streets and shopping centres. I am sure the Minister will comment that online shopping is available 24/7, but that is another matter that I will return to later.
The Government’s consultation on changes to Sunday trading was held for just two weeks in the summer holiday, although they took five months to publish the results. In the publication, for some reason the Government omitted to tell us how many people were in favour of the changes and how many were not. They told us only that lots of big businesses were, perhaps unsurprisingly, in favour. We were not told the results of all 7,000 responses.
It is important to appreciate the scale of the impact of the proposals. Any regulatory changes to operations in the retail sector will have an enormous knock-on effect on the economy as a whole. A September 2015 report by Oxford Economics found that the sector accounts for 9.2% of all jobs in the UK—more than 3 million people—and that 50,000 small local convenience stores employ 386,000 people. Any regulatory changes will have significant ramifications for the sector as a whole, in particular for convenience stores, small shops, their staff and the local communities they serve.
For a significant proposal that generates such keen debate, a responsible approach would have been to undertake a robust economic analysis, a transparent consultation and honest engagement with interested parties, and to decide upon a dedicated legislative mechanism to deliver reforms on that basis. Sadly, that is not what the Government have done. Extended Sunday trading hours would not produce any more sales and would simply spread existing sales from small stores to large stores and over more hours. Unless the Government are advocating more consumer credit and an increase in the level of personal unsecured debt, how could it be otherwise?
The Oxford Economics study drew two clear conclusions: first, there would be no overall increase in retail spending; and secondly, there would be significant displacement of spending from smaller to larger retailers, damaging those 50,000 convenience stores. The report states that
“devolving Sunday trading decisions to local authorities, and the subsequent liberalisation that can be expected to occur, will have only a small impact on the retail sector as a whole, whether positive or negative. However, the displacement of spending from small to large stores may have an impact on employment patterns within the sector that can be expected to manifest itself in job losses at a local level.”
There would be not only a change in spending, but an impact on employment, so there is no overall economic benefit to offset the significant harm caused by the proposal to employment, small business owners, and shop workers and their families.
I turn to the process that we went through to get to this point in Committee. No amendments, impact assessment or economic analysis were published and still no family test has been released either.
Catherine McKinnell
I am listening carefully to my hon. Friend, and I must say that I am a little baffled about the evidence on which the Government based their decision to change Sunday training hours and where they believe the economic benefit will come from. From any studies or information from the Government that my hon. Friend has read, does he know where the economic benefit will fall?
Bill Esterson
It is a very good question. Without an impact assessment, we are in the dark about where the evidence for the changes comes from and what the evidence is for the economic effect. As I mentioned before, the elements of the consultation that the Government have published mention only the responses from, we presume, a relatively small number of very large businesses, which favour the changes overall, and make no reference to the numbers of people who favoured or opposed the changes. We have limited evidence about what has happened. I have tried to look for some evidence and there are some studies, which I shall come to later.
Parliament should have the opportunity to digest and scrutinise the evidence, put forward by the Government. It is simply unacceptable that the new clauses were dropped in with no notice on Second Reading. The answers to parliamentary questions asking where the impact assessment is were published on Monday. The Minister said that an impact assessment had been carried out and that it would be published, but she did not say when. Perhaps either she or the Minister for Housing and Planning, who has moved the new clause, can tell us later when that impact assessment will be published, although it is bizarre that we are debating the Bill without sight of the results of the impact assessment.
The Minister mentioned Knightsbridge and I mentioned the Harrods clause earlier. There are two high streets that benefit, Oxford Street and Knightsbridge, if they can be described as high streets. They are represented by the New West End Company. However, they are very different from almost any other high street or main shopping area of a high street anywhere else in the country. To base a policy on what happens in Knightsbridge or in Oxford Street really is a very strange way to proceed.
Catherine McKinnell
The Minister for Small Business, Industry and Enterprise, who is not the Minister dealing with this new clause, is chuntering from a sedentary position that the provision is entirely discretionary. Perhaps she does not understand the nature of market forces.
Bill Esterson
The Minister certainly claims that she understands market forces; she does so often.
I have mentioned before that this could be described as a domino clause, because those local authorities that do not implement it may well be influenced by what goes on in neighbouring authorities that do implement it. I guess that is a form of market forces. Perhaps it is the forces between neighbouring local authorities around the country that will, in the end, force everybody to comply and to relax Sunday trading rules for all.
Sadly, the Government’s consultation is an advocacy document for devolving Sunday trading rules. The Government have ducked and dived, parried all the evidence that has been presented to them, and blindly focused on what they want to hear, as they have only quoted selectively from the consultation. We can assume that that is the case, because of the 7,000 responses to the consultation received by the Government, they have focused their analysis on just three groups: large and medium-sized businesses; business representative bodies; and local councils. In other words, they are focusing on the people who stand to gain the most.
Using a very small sample from the 7,000 responses, the Government found what was undoubtedly for them the palatable figure of 76% of respondents supporting devolution in order to make their case, but there was only 76% support among those three groups. The Government have ignored, and not published, the figures that show the concern among small business owners, high streets, shop workers, families and family groups, and, indeed, faith groups. The people who will be affected the most by the change are being completely ignored in this process.
Since the beginning of the year, the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills has published five consultation responses, all of which have included a breakdown of respondents and analysis of their position, and how many responses in total are in favour of a proposal and how many responses in total are opposed to it. That has happened on a range of issues. However, that has not occurred for the consultation on Sunday trading reform. Why is that? It is because the Government know that their proposals are not backed by the majority of the public and the majority of stakeholders.
In making their case for Sunday trading reform, the Government have also used evidence that is laughably out of date to support their case. I will focus on three key pieces of evidence that the Government have used to make their case and to deal with the question that my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North asked earlier, in order to outline why the Government are misguided.
The first is Swedish sales data. The BIS press release announcing the Government response to the consultation of last August proudly stated that a change in Sunday trading resulted in a 5% increase in turnover in Sweden. In order to get that figure and find that 5% increase, the Government went all the way back to Sweden in 1972, when ABBA were formed. I am sure that somebody will be able to think of a suitable ABBA song to describe the appropriateness or otherwise of the way the Government have used that data. [Interruption.] I feel an intervention is coming.
The Minister for Small Business, Industry and Enterprise (Anna Soubry)
Dancing Queen?
Bill Esterson
Speak for yourself. The Government did that to find a 5% increase in turnover from changes to Sunday trading laws.
Sweden in 1972 is clearly not the same as the United Kingdom in 2016. The Government also fail to mention the wider impact after Sunday trading reform in Sweden. For example, small stores were decimated, with their market share dropping from 70% to 19%. That is an almost complete collapse in the sector.
Catherine McKinnell
Another concern about the impact of the changes on small convenience stores might be at a tangent to the debate, but what occurred to me because of the situation in my local area is that post offices are increasingly being located in convenience stores precisely because they are struggling to survive independently on the high street. By putting convenience stores at greater risk, we are also putting our post office services at greater risk. The Minister should bear that in mind.
Bill Esterson
So the Minister should. My hon. Friend must have been reading my speech over my shoulder—which would have been a remarkable achievement given that I am a little bit taller than she is—because I was about to say that the National Federation of SubPostmasters has also expressed its concerns about the impact of Sunday trading reforms on post offices.
We have a network of only 11,500 post offices because most of them are integrated into local convenience stores—the point that my hon. Friend was making—and those host businesses in effect subsidise the post office. A number of convenience stores and the National Federation of SubPostmasters have expressed concerns that as retail trade in their stores declines due to extended Sunday trading for large stores, those post offices will be put at risk.
Catherine McKinnell
To elaborate, I know from personal experience and local feedback that often Sundays out of hours are the only time at which many people use the convenience stores and so become aware that the post office services are available there. The Sunday footfall is important for those convenience stores.
Bill Esterson
That is right. The great British compromise that we have at the moment gives small retailers a one-day-a-week competitive advantage—it is a slight one, because they are not open for the whole day—and helps, as my hon. Friend said, to raise awareness that there is a post office in those convenience stores. Without that one-day advantage, there is bound to be less awareness of the post offices, which will have an impact on their ability to be successful.
I turn to online shopping. Extending Sunday trading hours will not help high streets to compete with online retailers. For some reason, the Government believe, as the Minister told us, that people shop online because of variations in trading hours on Sundays. There is no link in either consumers’ minds or behaviour between early morning and evening restrictions in Sunday opening hours and their use of the internet for shopping. That is supported by polling completed by Populus of 2,008 members of the public. It asked respondents whether they had shopped online during the Christmas period, with two thirds stating they had. Those respondents were asked to say why they had chosen to shop online and, unsurprisingly, none of them referenced Sunday trading hours as a reason.
Ministers continue to remind us that they are not changing the Sunday trading laws but just devolving the decision to local authorities or, as the Minister said, to local leaders. It is not the whole community, but one person in each local authority.
The Minister for Housing and Planning (Brandon Lewis)
Does the hon. Gentleman not trust his leaders—does he not trust his councillors?
Bill Esterson
We will come back to that point.
It is naive to believe that the devolution of the powers will not result in a blanket extension of Sunday trading hours across the country because of the domino effect I mentioned. Polling of local authority chief executives has shown that 45% of local authorities are heavily influenced by the action of neighbouring authorities’ policies and procedures. We are therefore likely to see far longer Sunday opening hours in the majority of areas within a short period, because there will be a domino effect across the country as one council follows the other.
We also know from the planning system that large businesses have slick procedures for lobbying local authorities to secure favourable local policies and new developments. That has resulted in the widespread development of out-of-town stores, which have driven footfall away from traditional town centres and harmed high streets. It will no doubt be the same for Sunday trading policies. The Minister often says that he is serious about supporting high streets; I think he is supposed to be the Minister responsible for high streets.
Bill Esterson
No, that is the responsibility of one of the Minister’s colleagues in the Department for Communities and Local Government.
Catherine McKinnell
My hon. Friend raises an important point in questioning whether the Minister is responsible for high streets. He shakes his head to show that he is not, but it would be interesting to know whether he has spoken to the Minister responsible for the issue about the impact it will have on high streets.
Bill Esterson
The CLG Ministers might not have consulted the rest of the country, published the impact assessment or told us how much opposition there is to the measure, but we can probably assume that they talk within their team.
Brandon Lewis
I will put the hon. Gentleman’s mind at rest. He and the hon. Lady may be referring back to how the previous Labour Government used to work, but in this Conservative Government we do talk together. I used to be the Minister responsible for high streets. The Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones), is now that Minister. Not only have I consulted him, but he has consulted widely, including members of the Future High Streets Forum, who, like him, are positive about this measure for the future of our high streets.
Bill Esterson
Unfortunately, the Minister’s team has not published the results of that wider consultation, which is one point I have been making. If they are serious about giving local people a choice and this not being the decision of just one local leader, why have they not made provisions for local referendums, publication of local impact assessments or extensions to specific areas in their new clause? The current proposal does not provide a real choice for local people—a point supported by Gary Morris, a director at property consultancy WYG, who told Property Week:
“I believe there will be pressure from the out-of-town retailers and supermarkets to open longer. And that won’t necessarily be because they want to; it’ll be because they feel they need to just compete”—
as with local authorities. He goes on:
“I can envisage a scenario whereby out-of-town operators might look for regional disparities to make a case that they should be allowed to open to compete with centres further away with longer hours”.
We know from polling local authority chief executives that that is true: 52% have indicated that they would use the devolution of Sunday trading powers to support out-of-town retailers and supermarkets, not town centres and high streets. Such a change to Sunday trading can only displace trade and harm high streets. The Minister has chosen to ignore those important facts.
Catherine McKinnell
My hon. Friend is making a brilliant speech. I must go back to his reference to Sweden, ABBA and 1972 and put on the record my concern that decision making will become all about money, money, money rather than the wider community concerns on which all planning decisions should be made.
Bill Esterson
I thank my hon. Friend, because that was worth the half-hour wait. That was very good and she is quite right, of course. I will not try to improve on it.
Bill Esterson
And my hon. Friend makes the point brilliantly. It is a very serious point. Of course, the Government would say that what might be called trivial points about local decision making—I do not think that they are at all trivial—mean nothing because, at the end of the day, consumers want change and shop workers want the opportunity to work more hours and earn more money. In fact, the Minister did say that.
Again, the Government are ignoring the facts. In September, research from Populus showed overwhelming support for the existing Sunday trading compromise, with two thirds of the public supporting the existing measures. The majority—61%—agree that Sunday is different from the rest of the week as it enables shared time with family and friends. Only one in eight people thinks that there is not enough time to shop under the current Sunday trading hours. One in eight. We are changing the law to ignore the views of seven in eight. That is remarkable.
Sunday trading laws work for the country. They are an important part of the fabric of our society. Sunday is a communal day of rest when people of faith or no faith can spend time with their family and friends and recharge their batteries for the rest of the week. The same is true for shop workers, the most important stakeholders in this debate whose views are completely ignored by the Government.
Some 91% of shop workers do not want a change in Sunday trading laws. They support the current compromise that allows them to spend a couple of hours a week with their families. Let us not underestimate how important that is for shop workers who already work more weekend hours. Some 63% of people employed in retail are already working overtime, compared with an average of 57% across all sectors. Barely half the people who work in retail report being satisfied with the amount of leisure time they have, suggesting that many experience a squeeze on the time they have available to spend with their partners and children.
Shop workers already face significant pressure to work on Sundays. They currently have the right to opt out of Sunday working if they give written notice to their employer with a notice period of three months. As the Minister told us, the Government have proposed to enhance the opt-out for shop workers in larger stores by reducing the notice period to one month. Staff will be able to opt out of working hours that are additional to their normal Sunday hours, which are averaged over a 12-week period. There is simply no evidence that the existing opt-out rules help to protect Sundays for shop workers, so it is clearly questionable for the Government to suggest that extending the opt-out rules will alleviate pressure on staff in the sector, if and when the legislation is passed and implemented.
The fact is that many shop workers are unable to use the Sunday working opt-out because of pressure from management. To ensure that they can cover all shifts whenever necessary, retail managers request seven-day flexibility from staff. Those who apply for a job invariably have to complete an availability schedule as part of their application. If they do not include availability on Sundays, they are not offered an interview. Employment contracts in retail then stipulate that staff have to give availability across the days and times that they have indicated. If staff ask to opt out of Sunday working, they can be told that they are not fulfilling their contract.
One USDAW member described it as follows:
“Sundays used to be a day of rest. Now my contract says 5 over 7”—
that is, they have to work for any five days in a week. Another said:
“My employer now only takes on part-timers willing to work every weekend.”
In fact, an independent survey in September 2015 of more than 10,000 USDAW members working in large stores found that 58% are already under pressure to work on Sundays when they do not want to. One member responding to the survey said:
“I’ve been told I’d be letting the team down if I don’t work extra on a Sunday. If we refuse a request to work extra then they are extremely unlikely to honour a request for an appointment or for time off”.
Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon, Sir David. I am not sure how many members of the Committee have done shop work, but I certainly remember my two years as a Saturday girl in British Home Stores. That was 30 years ago. Those were the days when there was no Sunday opening, but in the run-up to Christmas there were four Sundays. As a young woman living in recession-hit Coventry in the early ’80s, I certainly relished the chance to work on a Sunday—but that was also because I was getting double pay on a Sunday. On the rare occasions when I worked on a bank holiday, I was getting treble pay.
I think it is a real shame that over the past 30 years the retail industry has gradually eroded workers’ rights and pay and conditions, and is relying ever more on a temporary and part-time workforce, partly so as not to pay the employers’ national insurance contributions. Employers would find that people would be more likely to volunteer to work on Sundays if the pay and incentives were correct.
Bill Esterson
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point and reminding us that there was a time when workers received overtime payments for unsocial hours. Bank holidays were triple time. I have similar experience, so long ago that I cannot quite remember, but I know that overtime payments were as my hon. Friend described, and there has been a fundamental change. I think that my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West will deal with some of those points a bit later.
Lucy Frazer (South East Cambridgeshire) (Con)
It is, again, a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir David. Is there not a flaw in the hon. Gentleman’s argument? If he is suggesting that currently 60% of shop workers complain about working on Sundays, a significant number are already working on Sundays.
Bill Esterson
I have not answered the first intervention yet; I am not entirely sure how to, as it was a statement of the obvious that staff work on Saturdays—and, yes, staff work on Sundays. That is certainly true, but people want the chance to have at least some time on a Sunday. That is the argument, and that is the point being made by shop workers who feel under huge pressure already. That pressure can only grow if the number of hours is increased by the larger stores.
Jo Churchill
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir David. I want to make two points: I started my career in retail, not in the illustrious universities that many here went to. I was manager of the year for the retail group that I started with and then manager of the year for a company called the Body Shop International, in the mid-’80s. That gave me many years of working seven days a week.
People have two choices when they are in business: to make profit, and sustain, or not to make profit. The reason why people do not get paid triple or even double time is that society has changed and businesses could no longer afford to give choice on the high street if they chose to do that. We are beyond the time when that was possible. If the hon. Gentleman truly wants to do what he has argued—sustain the high street—payment must work across the seven days of a week. Fundamentally his argument is flawed, on the basis that if one predicates—
Bill Esterson
I do not think any of us were suggesting going back to the 1980s and the deindustrialisation and destruction of industry that happened under the Thatcher Government. [Hon. Members: “Oh!”] In the current environment, we have an agreed compromise. That is what the Opposition are trying to protect. It is an agreed compromise between small businesses, staff, families and faith groups. It has widespread public support and the only people who seem to want to change it are those with interests in large businesses and those who feel they will have no choice other than to support it because of the domino effect around the country.
USDAW’s research has found that, even in workplaces with trade union reps to support members, many staff are pressured into not using the Sunday opt-out. The argument being made by Opposition Members, trade unions and shop workers is that it is about a level playing field and fairness. The survey by USDAW found that 28% of those who tried to opt out of Sunday working in large stores had been unable to. In small stores, the figure rose to 38%, reflecting the longer opening hours and greater pressure to work. The hon. Member for Bury St Edmunds was referring to smaller stores. That is a difficult reality for the staff as well as for the business owners. The point is to try to balance those two as much as possible.
Overall, for every two staff who are able to use the opt-out, only one is successful. In the vast majority of retail workplaces where there is no union organisation or support, the proportion of staff unable to use the opt-out will be far higher. There is immense pressure on retail staff to work on Sundays. Even in workplaces with trade union reps to support members, over a third of those who try to opt out of Sunday working are unable to, and even more are prevented by pressure from even trying to use the opt-out. Longer Sundays will make the pressure worse, and the changes in the opt-out will not prevent staff from being pressured into working more on Sundays, making them lose even more precious family time.
John Hannett, the general secretary of USDAW, says:
“Many shopworkers find they are unable to use the current Sunday opt-out due to pressure from management and the possible loss of working hours, which most cannot afford. For these reasons the Government’s so-called protections will mean little or nothing in practice.”
The protections for shop workers are not enough to prevent businesses from abusing their dominance to force shop workers to work for longer, and that will be exacerbated under the Government’s proposals.
Church and faith groups are strongly opposed to the Government’s reforms and are equally frustrated by the Government’s consultation process. The Bishop of St Albans, the right reverend Dr Alan Smith, recently said:
“The Government response makes no compelling case for improved economic or social benefits and will do nothing to dissuade those who are concerned that the policy will damage family and community life…Most fundamentally the consultation response neglects to recognise the social value of a shared day for community and family life. In a world of increasing commodification, the space for shared time and activities, central to human flourishing is becoming ever more rare. Increased Sunday opening hours will only exacerbate this trend. I hope the Government will reflect and think again.”
I am sure the strength of feeling from church and faith groups will be replicated in the other place, where the Enterprise Bill started without the Sunday trading proposals included. It was the Enterprise Bill. It was not the Enterprise and Sunday Trading Bill, which it will become after the amendment goes through. The Lords did not have time to discuss Sunday trading or to examine it in detail in Grand Committee or on Report. This is the first time it is being debated. It is important to remember that this is a Lords Bill and the first time we are debating this matter is in the Commons.
The Government have not made a credible case, economically or socially, for a change to Sunday trading laws, so much so that the Government consultation process has used outdated and misrepresented data to form a credible case for reform. Consumers, small businesses, large businesses, high streets, shop workers and faith groups support the compromise we have now. A change is not wanted or needed. The Government’s own Back Benchers are divided on the issue and, as such, the Government have chosen to award the Bill the smallest amount of time for scrutiny in Parliament. The Government are running scared from debating Sunday trading, which is why it was left so late. They are hiding behind the false devolution argument to deliver complete liberalisation by the back door and pursue their ideological ambitions over workable public policy. I hope that on Report, Government Members can persuade Ministers that it is a mistake and that they should rethink, go back to the drawing board and withdraw the proposal.
Catherine McKinnell
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir David. I am keen to add my voice to those who share deep concern about both the substance of the changes and how they have been introduced by the Government. I do so on behalf of shop workers in my constituency and across the country who are interested in the issue, small businesses and convenience stores in my constituency and across the country and the large number of people who, whether due to religious faith or otherwise, feel strongly that Sunday should be kept as a special day for faith, community or cultural reasons.
It is important to put it on record that although I speak on behalf of a wide range of people, I have a personal interest in the issue in that my husband works in retail, and the changes will have a direct impact on my family. I wanted to declare that interest. It is clearly not financial, but although I am not speaking about my personal experience, it informs my understanding of the impact that the changes will have, particularly on shop workers and communities throughout the country. I hope that it helps inform the debate as well.
There is a big question remaining in my mind, having heard the Minister introduce the proposals and my hon. Friend the shadow Minister make a strong speech setting out clearly why the Government have not made the case for the changes. I genuinely cannot understand why the Government are introducing them, why they are necessary and why they think that they are a good idea. We have a more than 20-year-old compromise on the issue, and the overwhelming consensus is that the public support the current arrangements. A recent Populus poll showed that 67% of the public, or two thirds, support the current rules about trading hours on a Sunday. Another poll by Ipsos MORI back in 2012 found that more than half the public actively oppose any extension to the Sunday trading hours. There is a clear level of consensus about the trading hours that the balance is about right.
The Government argue that this is about localism and giving local areas the opportunity to grow, create more jobs, be more competitive in an increasingly online world and reinvigorate high streets, but the truth is that without any proper consultation or results from that consultation published by the Government, the evidence available to us on whether those claims and intentions stack up shows that it will achieve quite the opposite.
Even large retailers, which the Government claim will benefit from the changes, share many of the concerns. Asda, for example, has admitted that it hopes that the changes to the Sunday trading hours will be dropped altogether, because it has concerns about the workability of the proposals. Other retailers worry whether there will be enough of an uplift in demand to justify the extra costs incurred through longer opening hours. My hon. Friend the shadow Minister clearly outlined the question about the cost-benefit analysis of extending hours for the same amount of trade.
Perhaps the biggest worry for large retailers is how they will cope with the complexity of hundreds of different rules for different stores throughout the country about when and for how long they can open on Sundays. One big supermarket group recently told The Times:
“This is all becoming more and more opaque. The government says it is trying to cut red tape but now it wants to give local councils this subjective ability to pick and choose which areas can have extended trading, and who will benefit from that. It all seems a bit of a shambles…and the data the government is using to support its argument is from 2006 before the recession.”
Surely the new clause flies in the face of the Government’s deregulation agenda, which we considered earlier. Will the Minister clarify whether the Government have undertaken an impact assessment, and whether they will publish it, on how the new clause will affect the Government’s business impact target, which requires Ministers to consider the economic impact of statutory provisions on businesses?
The Government claimed that this change will boost high street footfall, but what of the economic impact on businesses that will have to comply with tens, if not hundreds, of different regulations and Sunday trading restrictions? Far from cutting red tape for businesses, devolving powers over Sunday trading will do the opposite. Businesses large and small agree, and have expressed their concerns about that.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Sefton Central said, the best and only test we have of the effect of extending Sunday trading hours is their temporary relaxation during the 2012 Olympics. He talked about the difference between the retail sales in July, August and September, when that temporary relaxation was in force, and those of the earlier months of May and June, when the restrictions remained in place. ONS figures show that the level across all of those months was the same as the previous year, which calls into question the claim that extending Sunday trading hours will bring an increase in trade. It will, however, increase retailers’ costs.
Although the case for extending Sunday trading hours based on the economic impact on businesses is far from certain, it will have a big impact on small shops and convenience stores. The London Olympics give a useful indication of the impact that a permanent relaxation might have on small businesses and convenience stores, which play a vital role in all of our communities not only by providing post office services, which we have discussed, but by being available as a convenience—hence the name.
My hon. Friend referred to the Oxford Economics study that found that, as a result of the temporary relaxation during the Olympics, convenience stores within 1 mile of a supermarket lost £1,300, or 3.4% of their weekly sales. That evidence is very different to anything the Government have cited in support of the changes. I would be surprised if hon. Members on both sides of the House are willing to support their wish and hope—I have a dream, to go back to the Abba bingo—over the clear evidence from past experience that shows that the change will damage convenience stores and could cost the sector up to 6,500 jobs, far outweighing any projections for the jobs that may be created in the larger stores.
Mary Creagh
My hon. Friend made an interesting point earlier—I have been reflecting on it during her speech—about the risks to the retail sector, and in particular to the large stores. The sector does not have a unanimous opinion on this issue. A risk that has been raised is that if one store opens, causing every other store to feel that they have to do the same, they will end up becoming less profitable because there will not be enough footfall. Perhaps people in Wakefield do not want to go shopping or whatever else at 9 o’clock on a Sunday morning. They might be having a well-deserved lie-in or taking the dog for a walk.
Catherine McKinnell
Indeed. My hon. Friend makes an important point. [Interruption.] The Minister from a sedentary position keeps repeating the mantra that it is not obligatory. Is that what she is saying?
Catherine McKinnell
The Minister says that it is not compulsory, but she seems to misunderstand completely the nature of market forces and retail competition.
Catherine McKinnell
As my hon. Friend says, perhaps the Minister has never played dominoes.
Catherine McKinnell
I will happily give way to the hon. Lady, who has already given us a lecture on market forces. That would be very helpful.
Jo Churchill
Yes, I suppose it is about market forces again. Tesco convenience stores in places where there has been a lack of demand have dropped their hours back down, which indicates that, actually, it is not compulsory; it is up to the business to ensure that it optimises—[Hon. Members: “So why change the system?”] So larger ones have the choice. It is about choice.
Catherine McKinnell
I appreciate what the hon. Lady says, but the Government have a role and a responsibility to balance the interests of communities, the business community, local authorities and local planning decisions, which is where the debate was had 22 years ago when a compromise was struck. That compromise has worked and is sensible, and she has pointed out that some retailers have decided to drop back their hours where there is not enough demand. The difficulty with fully liberalising the retail legislation in this way is that it removes all of the current compromise that allows for that flexibility. Indeed, she makes the point that the current laws are working, and the Government have not submitted any evidence to justify why they need to change the system.
The Federation of Small Businesses and the Association of Convenience Stores, both significant voices for small businesses, are opposed to the measures. Small businesses are the backbone of the UK’s economy, making up 99% of the 5.2 million businesses in the country and employing more than 14 million people. Their voice should be heard, and the restrictions on Sunday trading play a vital role in supporting and sustaining our small businesses. Frankly, I am shocked that the Government seem to dismiss the concerns of small businesses so out of hand when they claim to be champions of small business, but we know that is not the case, and this proves it.
My final point is on the tens of thousands of people who work in the retail sector on Sundays for large retailers and who take comfort from the current arrangements, which enable them to go out to earn a living while still getting some time off with their family on a Sunday and retaining a semblance of a work-life balance. Surely the Minister can recognise that the new clause merely risks heaping more pressure on low-paid retail workers, for whom the Sunday restrictions are considered a fundamental right and protection. It is telling that his contribution to the debate so far was entirely focused on those workers being able to enforce those rights. A measure proposed by the Government that is focused entirely on how individuals and workers can enforce those rights highlights the issue and the difficult situation in which the Government are deliberately putting those workers.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
Would it be useful if the Minister clarified that point? We know the measure is controversial, and we will be returning to it on Report; lots of Government Members are also not happy with it. Even if the measures do not go ahead, will the enhanced workers’ rights be delivered by the Government because they think it is the right thing to do?
Catherine McKinnell
My hon. Friend makes an important point, and it would be useful to hear from the Minister that, even if the Sunday trading laws do not go ahead—the Minister should take on board the deep concerns on both sides of the House about the Sunday trading restrictions—he will still commit to the additional rights for workers to enforce the Sunday trading restrictions in their workplace.
Does the Minister recognise the concerns raised about work-life balance? He should address that issue, because it is a well-known aspiration of the Prime Minister to make the UK the most family-friendly country in Europe. Indeed, in 2014 he announced, to much fanfare, his family test, which says that
“every single domestic policy that government comes up with will be examined for its impact on the family… The reality is that in the past the family just hasn’t been central to the way government thinks. So you get a whole load of policy decisions which take no account of the family and sometimes make…things worse.”
I could not agree more. This has just come into my head, and I cannot resist sharing it with the Committee: in the light of the exchange at Prime Minister’s questions yesterday between the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition, does your mother know?
Given new clause 21, under which thousands of retail staff face working longer hours on Sunday—a day when their children are not at school and that is often reserved for family and friends—what will happen to the Prime Minister’s aspiration? Has the family test been carried out and, if so, why has the result not been published?
Caroline Flint (Don Valley) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Sir David. This debate saddens and disappoints me. I remember when the previous Government came to the Commons to seek support for extending the opening hours during the Olympics. I, along with others, listened in good faith to the arguments presented by the Government. Like Members of all parties, I was concerned that giving the green light to the extension would be the start of something much wider in England and Wales.
I am also saddened by the fact that in April 2015 USDAW received a letter written on behalf of David Cameron stating that the Government had no plans to relax the current legislation. The letter was written on behalf of the Prime Minister in 2015, and we have the same Prime Minister in 2016. However, a review was subsequently announced in June 2015 after the election. On two occasions, senior figures in our political system—the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Prime Minister—have seemed to say one thing to get the support of the House and the electorate, and then down the road it seems they have changed their view. Perhaps that was already their plan. As my hon. Friends have already outlined, we have what it is fair to call a great British compromise. It is not the case—
Caroline Flint
I will come on to Scotland shortly. I am proud of being English; in England we do not have to do everything that they do in Scotland, and vice versa. That is the beauty of devolution. Sometimes we are right and they are wrong—and, to be fair to Scottish National party Committee members, sometimes Scotland gets it right and we get it wrong. I pay tribute to the fact that the Scots chose to go ahead with the ban on smoking in enclosed public spaces before England did. As public health Minister, I went to Scotland to learn from its success. It was a good example of seeing where things could be done differently and how we could learn from them.
I think England is very different from Scotland when it comes to the retail sector. No offence, but England is a much bigger country with a much larger population. The density of our cities and their proximity to each other—putting aside Glasgow and Edinburgh—means that the changes the Government are suggesting could end up, as my hon. Friends have outlined, having a mushrooming effect as one city makes one decision under one local authority and that leads to pressure on others. I worry about that.
According to a survey by USDAW of more than 10,000 shop workers, the vast majority work at least some Sundays. Most work every Saturday. Perhaps there is a reason why the Government want the changes. My hon. Friend the Member for Sefton Central made an interesting point: he said we need to tighten up the protection of workers’ rights in this area because 35% of staff in large stores would like to work fewer hours on a Sunday. That indicates, along with other evidence, that undue pressure is already being put on workers in retail today. Regardless of whether our Parliament decides to go ahead with the Government’s proposals, I hope that the Government will extend the protections under the existing arrangements to retail workers who work on Sundays.
I happen to think that not every day of the week should be the same. It is good to have something a bit different and a bit British. I am old enough to remember the halcyon days when we had half-day closing on a Wednesday. My grandparents were publicans. My parents worked in pubs, and I have worked in pubs. I remember when we opened at 12 o’clock on a Sunday and closed at 2 o’clock, then did not open until 7 o’clock that night. There are some issues around the opening hours of that sector as well.
I also remember when banks were first allowed to open on a Saturday. In fact, it was on a new Saturday opening of the NatWest branch in Richmond when my husband and I happened to go in with our children to get some pocket money for them and we managed to foil an armed bank robbery. Having done that and the robber having been apprehended by the police, my husband and I were put on alert that we might have to give evidence in court; on that particular Saturday, staff had been brought from another branch and had forgotten to put the cameras on inside the branch. As a result, there was no evidence, so my husband and I were the only persons who could put the armed robber in the bank and outside the bank at the relevant time.
There is often confusion about what the opening up of these arrangements means for staff. How ironic it is that all these years later, after all that extension of banks’ opening hours, we are now seeing bank closures. Throughout the villages in my constituency, I see banks closing from Monday to Friday, when consumers would like to see them open.
According to a statement from the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills:
“The current Sunday trading rules are restrictive, stifling business efficiency and competitiveness and inhibiting consumer choice and reducing the ability of our major cities to compete for international tourism.”
In the words of Victor Meldrew, “I don’t believe it!” I happen to have in my constituency the excellent Yorkshire Wildlife Park, which is one of the fastest growing tourist attractions in Yorkshire. You are very welcome to visit, Sir David, if you happen to be in south Yorkshire on a weekend.
Mary Creagh
I thank my right hon. Friend for enlivening our afternoon deliberations with her armed robbery-foiling story, which I have heard many times. I heartily recommend the full version; I am sure we can all adjourn to Strangers’ at the close of the Committee to hear the unexpurgated version. However, she neglected to mention the meerkats at the Yorkshire Wildlife Park, which is a gross injustice to that excellent tourist attraction.
Caroline Flint
I thank my hon. Friend for that added promotion of the park. May I return the favour by mentioning the excellent Yorkshire Sculpture Park in her constituency of Wakefield?
The BIS statement says that these measures will somehow improve international tourism, but do you know what? I want people to come to the Yorkshire Wildlife Park on a Sunday. I want them to go to the Yorkshire Sculpture Park on a Sunday. I want proper measures to support international tourism outside London and the south-east, and we can do that by ensuring we have good transport links, good support and promotion and marketing of those wonderful assets and jewels in our tourism crown. In a few months’ time, we will have the Tour de Yorkshire, which will come through my constituency and is a major event to raise money and create jobs. What is this shabby deal we are being offered? Nobody is asking for this.
Jo Churchill
I am just wondering: do these wonderful tourist attractions have any souvenir shops?
Caroline Flint
Yes. To be clear, we all acknowledge that there is provision for Sunday opening. In England and Wales, stores that are larger than 280 square metres are allowed to open for six continuous hours between the hours of 10 am and 6 pm. Small stores—those under 280 square metres—do not have any restrictions on Sunday opening.
Mary Creagh
In her enunciation of the highlights of Wakefield, my right hon. Friend unforgivably neglected to mention the Hepworth Wakefield gallery, which is open on Sundays. It has an excellent café/restaurant and a shop. Both the shop at the Hepworth and the shop at Yorkshire Sculpture Park are open on Sundays because they are classified as small shops.
Caroline Flint
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. I am happy to take other interventions on how we support the UK tourism industry and do not undermine it by further encouraging people to shop even longer in the major shops in our cities and towns. I really do not think we need that.
David Mackintosh (Northampton South) (Con)
Will the right hon. Lady give way?
Caroline Flint
No. I am going to finish my point before I take another intervention. I do not think a change to Sunday hours is necessary, and there is no evidence for it. We certainly do not have the impact assessment with the evidence to support it. What is shabby about this whole debate is that none of this stuff was in the Bill on Second Reading. Nevertheless, Ministers spent an inordinate amount of time trying to explain what the proposal was all about and why it should go ahead. [Interruption.]
Catherine McKinnell
My right hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. From a sedentary position, in response to the important point she makes about small shops and other businesses that can take advantage of the existing Sunday arrangements, the Minister asks why that should not be available for larger stores. Does she share my concern that the Government just do not get it?
Caroline Flint
I do not think that they get it. We already have a flexible system that gives ample time for people to shop on a Sunday if they so wish, but within a framework that tries to make Sunday different from every other day of the week. Further extension of Sunday trading will not only put huge pressure on people who are currently working in large stores, 35% of whom would like to work shorter hours than they currently are, but undermine the fabric of what a Sunday should be about and the opportunity for families to be together.
I am a vice chair of the all-party group on women and work. Earlier this week we were discussing the big problems of childcare—and that was just from Monday to Friday, let alone the impact of having to find more childcare support on a Sunday. In the UK there are already too many families, some of whom I know and have met, in which the parents are working shifts to cover their own childcare because they cannot afford to pay for it or get it at a time that suits them. I do not want to be part of adding to the problems of those families.
David Mackintosh
We have heard a lot about interesting tourist attractions. Do people work at them on a Sunday?
Caroline Flint
Honestly, with the greatest respect to the hon. Gentleman, that is stupid. Nobody is not acknowledging the changes there have been in the working hours of the retail sector. In some cases, the arrangements make common sense, and compromise has happened. Nevertheless, to further extend the possibility of workers in the retail sector working ever-increasing hours from Monday to Sunday is a mistake. It is not just about the money; it is about how we see things and a way of life that is threatened by the Government’s proposals.
It concerns me that promises have been broken. It concerns me that we could see the domino effect, to which my colleagues have referred, whereby one city feels that it has to move in this direction and others follow suit. I hope that we would all agree that our high streets face major challenges in terms of internet shopping and how they can keep ahead. One of the biggest problems for the shops on my constituency’s high streets is that the landlords who own the properties that retailers rent are not keeping them up to standard, which has a massive effect on communities in the many villages and towns that I represent in Don Valley.
I also want to say—I was thinking about this during an earlier speech—that if we are to have longer retail hours on Sundays, what will the impact be on policing? How much more will the police have to deal with antisocial behaviour and crime in busy retail areas during opening hours? It happens too often and shop workers are often the victims. What impact will the change have on the amount of litter that accumulates during the longer opening hours? Has any thought been given to all the service areas that are so important to successful businesses and retail outlets? Will there be any knock-on effect on their responsibilities and duties?
I hope that the Government will reconsider the matter. There is cross-party opposition to the proposals. If something is not broken, why try to fix it? I was going to say that we have a British compromise, but it is a very English compromise, and I am going to stand up for England—and Wales.
Hannah Bardell (Livingston) (SNP)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the last time in this Committee, Sir David. I appreciate that this is a hotly debated topic and that time is marching on, so I will be brief.
Our concern has always primarily focused on Scottish workers and, as the right hon. Member for Don Valley identified and as was mentioned before, we do Sunday trading differently in Scotland. The SNP welcomes the Government’s provision of additional employee protections in new schedule 1. Indeed, without the strong and principled action of the SNP, such protections may never have materialised. We welcome the Government’s withdrawal of their initial proposals, which has allowed for more debate and engagement between now and Report. On behalf of the SNP, I have had the opportunity to engage with a number of interested stakeholders, large supermarkets and retailers, smaller retailers and trade organisations, and I will continue to do so. We particularly look forward to the enhanced scrutiny on Report.
Kevin Brennan
The hon. Lady mentioned trade associations, but not trade unions. There are 46,000 USDAW members in Scotland, so will she confirm that she will consult that union between now and Report?
Hannah Bardell
Yes, we have previously consulted USDAW and had significant discussions. I pay tribute to its work, and we will absolutely consult it again.
Brandon Lewis
We have had a long debate and some interesting contributions. It has been interesting to hear Opposition Members complain that the rules they put in place to protect workers are not working. That is one of the reasons why there is a package of options. I wonder whether they fully understand how the high street works, let alone whether they have actually fully read the new clause and schedule and understand how they knit together. The extra protections improve accessibility and are an integral part of the package. They would not be needed if we were not going forward. However, I appreciate Opposition Members’ recognition that the way things were done under Labour simply was not good enough.
In some instances, hon. Members, and particularly the hon. Member for Sefton Central, were missing the point. We are looking at devolving power to local areas. Just to correct him, I do not know how the Labour party works but certainly in Conservative councils, I would not think we have many leaders who believe that they are the sole decision maker. They work on a democratic basis where all councillors have their say, but that might be why we also have Labour councils asking for this power. As well as Manchester and Nottingham, more than 150 council leaders are calling for this devolved power. As I have said in other places around this House when discussing other legislation, I trust local people to make the right decisions for their areas, and I hope that Labour Members would as well.
Catherine McKinnell
It is incredibly frustrating to listen to the Minister talk about empowering local communities when he knows full well that he is putting local authorities up and down the country in an invidious position over central Government funding cuts. It is therefore no surprise that local authorities will do anything to try to mitigate the impact on their communities, but it is no excuse for the change in this legislation that the Government are ramming through.
Brandon Lewis
The hon. Lady tempts me to digress, but I will not go too far and test the Chair’s patience. However, I gently say to her that putting aside the fact that this is about local authorities making decisions about what is good for their local community, she might want to bear in mind, on her point about local government funding, that over the past few years, local authorities have managed to increase their reserves from about £13 billion to more than £22 billion. The revenue support grant that she referred to is actually a very small part of the income that local authorities get from a whole range of different areas.
I also find it slightly ironic that Labour Members, on listening to some of the things that we say about devolution, talk about closing post offices. Having seen how many post offices Labour closed, that is a slightly odd thing to hear.
David Mackintosh
I remind the Minister of times when I spoke to him in a previous capacity, when I was a local authority leader before being elected to this place. I was asking on behalf of my local authority for more powers and for the retention of business rates, all of which will be helped by the measures outlined in the Bill.
Brandon Lewis
My hon. Friend makes a very good point, which highlights the difference as regards our genuine belief in devolving power and delivering on that, whether it is through the Localism Act 2011, the Housing and Planning Bill or indeed, through this Bill.
To put the Committee’s mind at rest, I do not intend to accept the very tempting offer from Labour Members and run through a whole list of all the fabulous tourism offers around Great Yarmouth. I just encourage them to come and see for themselves, and hopefully, after the Bill gets Royal Assent, they will be able to do some shopping and spend their money there as well. I will also not break into song and sing “Mamma Mia” to reflect what my mother would think about the Bill—I would not dare to put the Committee through that, but I am sure my mother will be looking forward to shopping for longer on a Sunday.
The hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North was absolutely right in one thing she said at least: the rules on which we are discussing devolving a new power are more than 20 years old. They predate the internet, and there is now a whole different world of retail. The hon. Member for Sefton Central talked in his opening remarks about devolution and other Members have talked particularly about convenience stores, which I value. I met some in my constituency just a few weeks ago, and some of them were talking about how this could actually increase their trade, because people get used to being able to shop for longer through the day. That mirrors what we have seen elsewhere—those convenience stores have managed to have growth of about 5% over the last year—and it is worth noting that the number of convenience stores in Scotland, where there is that free trade opportunity, is higher per head than it is here in England. That is a really good example from very close to home of how convenience stores can thrive.
Hon. Members have made a few comments today about people’s desire for their religious views to be recognised and that even those who are not religious might wish to keep Sunday special. I remind hon. Members, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe has rightly said a few times, that this is not compulsory. People do not have to shop on a Sunday. What this does is give an opportunity to people who want to take advantage of the wider flexibilities to be able to do so. That can play quite an important part in enhancing family life and, as I said, in creating more jobs for young people, women and others who want to take advantage of companies that decide that Sunday trading is in their interest and their customers’ interest.
Brandon Lewis
I will just make a bit more progress. The point has been made a few times about larger businesses and the differentials that we could see as local authorities make decisions locally around the country. It is right, as hon. Members have said, that local authorities could make different decisions on whether they take and use the powers, the format, how long they extend them for or how they choose to zone in their area. Council leaders have given me very different examples of what they want to do, and I encourage that, because it recognises the differences across the country for local communities.
Catherine McKinnell
The Minister appears to have dispensed with the Opposition queries, but he has skimmed over my question about the family-friendly test. Will he comment, or has it gone the way of hugging huskies?
Brandon Lewis
If the hon. Lady looks at Hansard this evening, she will find that I have been responding to a lot of the queries of Opposition Members, specifically hers. Only a few seconds ago I said specifically on the family-friendly test that the Bill will give families more flexibility and opportunity on how they choose to spend their time on a Sunday. It will be a big advantage for families. I am sure that if it were not, we would have had hon. Members from Scotland jumping up to explain how Sunday trading has ruined family life in Scotland, a religious and family-focused country. I love spending time there and I have not heard that. I suspect that we will find that Scotland is a very good place to bring up a family, despite the fact that Scottish communities have freedom on Sunday trading. We want to give the opportunity to enjoy that same freedom to communities in this country.
Bill Esterson
In a similar vein, a number of us have mentioned the Prime Minister’s 20 April promise through his spokeswoman, before the general election, that there were no plans to change the Sunday trading laws in England and Wales. Will the Minister tell us when the Prime Minister changed his mind, or was it only a meaningless pre-election promise intended to get him through the last two weeks of the general election campaign?
Brandon Lewis
The hon. Gentleman is choosing to ignore the fact that since then there has been a general election, an entirely new Parliament and a Conservative Government, which is a good thing for our country. In 2015 the Prime Minister made it very clear at the Dispatch Box in this very House during Prime Minister’s Question Time that he felt it was time to review Sunday trading laws on the basis that they are outdated and were passed pre-internet.
Devolving the powers will enable local leaders, who are locally accountable, to decide for themselves what the right approach is to extending Sunday trading hours, reflecting local preferences, shopping habits and local economic conditions. It will provide consumers, businesses and shop workers with greater choice, opportunity and convenience. It will empower local leaders to support bricks and mortar shops in their local high streets and town centres, helping them to compete with the internet retailers that operate 24 hours a day, seven days a week and deliver on Sundays, too.
Kevin Brennan
As I understand it, the Minister’s explanation for the Prime Minister’s damascene conversion between April and June is that he discovered the internet. Is that correct?
Brandon Lewis
The hon. Gentleman is stretching it a little far to make a joke. If he looks back at Prime Minister’s questions, he will find that, as I outlined, the Prime Minister made the point that it was right to review Sunday trading laws in light of the fact that the current rules date from before the internet existed. I was very clear about that.
The change will also ensure that we get a bigger opportunity to drive competition and productivity, reducing prices and improving convenience for consumers. I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman does not appreciate that we have a Prime Minister who cares about our economy and local communities having not only power, but local choice. We want to support our towns and cities to create jobs and have greater prosperity and to enable them to compete for lucrative international tourism, too. Larger shops opening for longer can benefit smaller shops, food establishments and tourism attractions by bringing footfall in. The larger shops draw footfall into our town centres and having them open is good for our town centres.
Catherine McKinnell
The Minister is making an eloquent speech, but it appears to be completely evidence-free. The evidence available to us appears to say the absolute opposite to him. Will he please provide some evidence base for what he is saying?
Brandon Lewis
I outlined the logic behind what we are doing earlier today. The hon. Lady can also have a look at the Government response to the consultation, which is clear on these matters. We are determined to ensure that we deliver the amendments, which provide choice for local areas on what suits their local preferences and their local economic conditions, choice for retailers to open at times that better suit the needs of their customers and choice for consumers on where and when to shop for a wider range of goods and services.
The strengthened rights for shop workers mean that the benefits of the proposals can be delivered while protecting those shop workers who do not want to work at all on a Sunday or who do not want to work longer hours on a Sunday. They deliver flexibility at a local level, which is crucial in ensuring that local communities and local economies can play to their local strengths. Whether it is by capitalising on tourist spend or catering for shoppers later in the day, the amendments will help those local economies, and by extension our UK economy, to grow. That is why the amendments represent an essential modernisation of a piece of law that in reality is no longer fit for purpose in our modern consumer world.
Kevin Brennan
Welcome back, Sir David. We have heard about people’s experiences. My first job was in Fine Fare, which is probably defunct now, stacking shelves and cleaning the toilets for 48.5p an hour. When I graduated to Marks and Spencer, my mother said it was the happiest day of her life. I have that grassroots experience of the retail industry, although it is not the considerable experience of the hon. Member for Bury St Edmunds.
I will not detain the Committee for a long, because of the time. We have had an extensive debate. Most of the issues have been aired pretty well, and I will not repeat all the points. The Minister, the right hon. Member for Broxtowe, often chunters about us talking about process, but there is a fundamental objection about the process and the manner in which the Government have gone about introducing these things. The Prime Minister made commitments in April and suddenly changed his mind upon discovering the internet a few months later and decided that something needed to be done desperately and urgently. In the meantime, the convenience of a general election had intervened, meaning he would not have to face the electorate for another five years.
Mary Creagh
Does my hon. Friend agree that the invention of the internet is an argument against Sunday trading, because it gives busy working parents the opportunity to buy online from supermarkets and department stores and to have things delivered at their leisure and convenience, rather than dragging the kids around the shops at the weekend? Frankly, that is something that most families detest and despise—certainly my family do.
Kevin Brennan
The other growing trend is ordering things on the internet and picking them up in the shop at another time. That is increasingly how people shop these days; certainly my own wife does it frequently. [Hon. Members: “Ooh!”] Wait for it. I have yet to do that myself, because as a former Marks and Spencer Saturday boy, I like to try my suits on before I buy them. There are also, of course, different consumer rights for those who order online.
The changes have been introduced halfway through the Bill’s life, conveniently swerving around the Bishops in the House of Lords, who might have had something to say, as might other Members of that House, about keeping Sunday special. It is a highly controversial measure, and there is concern about it across this House, on the Conservative Benches as well as in other parties. That is why we properly have an extra half-day of time carved out on Report to discuss the Bill.
I was going to suggest that if working on a Sunday is nothing to be concerned about, perhaps that debate should take place on a Sunday here in Parliament, and we should all come back—I see the hon. Member for Bury St Edmunds nodding in approval. I would be certainly happy to do so if the Government want to table it on a Sunday, because I am sure it is no inconvenience whatever to anyone to come to work on a Sunday. [Interruption.] I do not sense universal assent to my proposal, but the hon. Lady was in favour of it.
As a result of that extra time, we will have an opportunity to test the opinion of the whole House on this subject. As this is a House of Lords Bill, it is not enactable in this House, so constitutionally, in this instance it is the Lords who have a significant say, and no Salisbury convention applies, because it was not included in the governing party’s manifesto. Indeed, the Prime Minister said that he would do the opposite, and had no plans to do anything about Sunday trading until his sudden discovery of the internet.
Therefore, if the Bill survives Report in the House of Commons and their lordships get it back, I am sure they will want to spend extensive time on the measure, given that they were not allowed to consider it because the Government did not have the courtesy to introduce it at the beginning of the Bill. As one of my hon. Friends pointed out, the consultation was extremely short and was then sat on for months after the Bill had gone through its stages in the House of Lords before the Government announced, on the cusp of Second Reading, that they had had another sudden revelation and decided that they needed to put the measure into this Bill, even though it was halfway through its parliamentary journey.
We need time to cogitate further on the measure, but in doing so, I have certainly been convinced by the arguments made by my right hon. and hon. Friends that we are likely to oppose it on Report. I enjoyed all their speeches. My hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North spoke with a great deal of knowledge, not least, as she pointed out, because of her family interest, in the form of her partner’s occupation. My right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley entertained us hugely by telling us that she had foiled a bank robbery. The only disappointing thing was that apparently no video survives of that day; I am sure that we would all have liked to see it. We look forward to hearing the full story outside this room. She also made some vital points about why the measure should not be adopted. We also heard contributions in the form of interventions by my hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield, and my hon. Friend the Member for Sefton Central set out an extensive case for why the measure is wrong.
I say to our colleagues from the Scottish National party that when people were debating a British compromise or an English compromise, I was feeling slightly forgotten over here in the corner, as a constituency Member representing a Welsh seat, because of course these measures also apply to Wales. However, they will affect Scotland and Northern Ireland. I know that USDAW has communicated with Scottish MPs on behalf of its 46,000 members in Scotland to say that its view is that the sort of premium pay that is available to workers in Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland for working on Sundays is already under severe threat as a result of the nature of the market and the prospect of these measures being introduced.
Bill Esterson
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
We debated some elements of the Groceries Code Adjudicator as part of our lengthy discussions about the creation of the small business commissioner a long time ago—two and a bit weeks ago, at the start of our proceedings. There is a great deal of overlap in the nature and aims of the adjudicator and the commissioner. Both were created to give a voice to smaller suppliers in their dealings with larger companies and both were designed to address the imbalance in those relationships.
New clause 15 seeks to acknowledge that there will be considerable concern about the Groceries Code Adjudicator, which was set up in 2013, and the small business commissioner, when it is established, presumably later this year, and the extent of their powers, the breadth of their remit and the teeth they have to deliver in their sectors. I appreciate that the general review of the Groceries Code Adjudicator is expected this year. We are asking in the new clause for a specific investigation of the adjudicator’s role, which is particularly relevant to the Bill because of the relationship with the small business commissioner. The review we are asking for is to learn from the first years of the Groceries Code Adjudicator so that we can apply those lessons to the post of the small business commissioner. The new clause is a simple way of saying that we did not get it quite right in 2013 and that we have an opportunity to learn valuable lessons now. We ought to ensure that those lessons are taken on board at the appropriate stage, which is in this Bill.
On confidentiality, we have said repeatedly, here and in the Lords, that if small businesses complain about big businesses that are their customers, they risk damaging their business relationships. Now, the Groceries Code Adjudicator has said that a lack of trust is a barrier to suppliers who might have complaints. Lord Mendelsohn cited that as a key area of concern. Without robust provisions for confidentiality and without learning from the experience of the Groceries Code Adjudicator, we will be doomed to repeat those deficiencies with the small business commissioner.
When it comes to providing greater powers for the commissioner, we can learn lessons from the Groceries Code Adjudicator. In January 2015, the then coalition Government announced that they would give the Groceries Code Adjudicator the ability to fine supermarkets 1% of their annual turnover for serious breaches of the grocery code. This was a recognition that the adjudicator needed to back up their influence with greater powers, but it took almost two years after the creation of the post to ensure that those powers were available. The new clause would avoid repeating that delay as we create the post of the small business commissioner. It would ensure that the commissioner’s office has the powers needed to do the job from day one by learning from the experience of the Groceries Code Adjudicator.
When the position of Groceries Code Adjudicator was created, concerns were raised about its ability to fulfil the Government’s ambitions for it, because it was given too few staff and resources to deliver effective change. Let us remember that the Groceries Code Adjudicator works only three days a week and has only five staff, who are responsible for 7,000 direct suppliers and a further 300,000 indirect suppliers. As we have pointed out, it is clear from the Australian model that this could well be a cause of problems in the UK. The Groceries Code Adjudicator is another reference point from which we can learn, as she is an adjudicator working part-time with five staff responsible for so many suppliers. With the small business commissioner, we are looking at a similarly small team taking responsibility for an estimated 390,000 disputes from 70,000 businesses.
We had an impact assessment for the creation of the small business commissioner. It is a shame, is it not, that we did not have one for Sunday trading. The impact assessment for the small business commissioner estimated that the commissioner’s team would deal with only 500 complaints out of the estimated 390,000 disputes every year. From the experience and comments of the Groceries Code Adjudicator, we know that she is understaffed. She has made it clear that she was given a small office and spends much of her time just explaining what she can and cannot do, and is left with little time to actually deliver. That is why there has been only one investigation in two years, as good as that investigation clearly was. She has made it clear that she cannot cover the suppliers in the supply chain.
As it stands, we will be putting more pressure on the small business commissioner, because the volume of potential activity is even greater. We need to learn the lessons and that is what the new clause is about. If the Government will not change the Bill, we should at least try to speed up the process of evolving the role to meet the challenges that the small business commissioner will face. I hope the Government will learn and apply the lessons from the first years of the Groceries Code Adjudicator. Throughout the process, we have called for the remit of the small business commissioner to be broadened and for the commissioner to have the resources at his or her disposal to fulfil the ambitions that we all have for the post. We want the commissioner to be given the powers to deliver real change to the crippling culture of late payments and poor business practice.
We have repeatedly used the example of the Australian small business commissioner, because it is a good model and we stand to learn a good deal from it. New clause 15 is an attempt to make sure that the powers that we believe ought to be put in place now are at least fast-tracked for the small business commissioner, by keeping a weather eye on and learning from the experience of the Groceries Code Adjudicator.
Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir David, in this last sitting.
My thoughts are broadly in line with those of the hon. Member for Sefton Central. As we know, this Bill introduces the small business commissioner, which obviously has cross-party support. Amendments have been tabled that we thought might give the office of the small business commissioner more teeth, to allow it to work more efficiently on behalf of those it will represent. Obviously the amendments have not been accepted today, but hopefully the Government will consider that in future.
In thinking about the office of the small business commissioner, it certainly makes sense to think about the office of the Groceries Code Adjudicator. Given that this is a wide-ranging Bill anyway, it makes sense to use it as an opportunity to review the powers and purpose of the GCA and to learn from its short history.
When the GCA was created in 2013, my SNP colleagues gave their support at that time, but my hon. Friend the Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) urged the Government to give the GCA enough power to address two key issues that she raised then. First, she highlighted the underlying problems caused by the concentration of power in the grocery supply chain due to the dominance of a handful of large supermarkets. We are well aware of the recent issue of Tesco breaking the code of practice and abusing its market position to prioritise its cash flow and finances over those of their suppliers. It was often excessively late with its payments. Tesco did that, but what was the outcome of the case? Yes, Tesco was named and shamed, which was good—the matter has been highlighted and Tesco has said it will not do it again—but the GCA, Christine Tacon, was unable to impose a fine, because she was only given the power to impose fines in 2015, two years after the establishment of her office.
The second issue that my hon. Friend highlighted was about sustainable food production and the ability of non-direct suppliers to supermarkets to make complaints that the GCA can investigate and follow through on. Recently we have seen evidence that this issue is rearing its head again, with the dairy farmers and the price they receive for milk. A stronger GCA may have been able to intervene and take greater action in support of the farmers or those at the end of a supply chain, who we need to survive in order to get the end product, provide local employment and have a greener product as a result of a smaller carbon footprint. Also, my hon. Friend the Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk (Calum Kerr) has called for the GCA to have greater powers over labelling, to make the supply chain from source to product much clearer.
Overall, the position of the GCA is welcome, but there are still imperfections. The new clause could allow some of them to be smoothed out. I support the new clause and certainly agree with the principle behind it.
Anna Soubry
It is obviously a pleasure, Sir David, to serve under your chairmanship in our final sitting.
In short, the Government are already committed to reviewing the GCA after next month. That commitment is in the Groceries Code Adjudicator Act 2013, so this very review is going to happen; it is in statute. Yes, we are looking at the terms of reference. We are preparing them to make sure they include all the things we want the review to look at, so we are looking at consideration of the remit and the powers of the GCA being part of that review.
The review will cover the period up to 31 March, so we will begin the public consultation shortly after that date, as part of the review, providing an opportunity for everyone to input their views. As I say, it is all there already in the 2013 Act. The new clause is just not necessary, because all these points are covered already.
Bill Esterson
I am grateful to the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun for his reminder of some of the issues, challenges and experiences of those who have sought help from the GCA in the last two years, and of the need for greater support and resource for the office of the GCA.
The reason for the new clause was to draw the parallels between the adjudicator and the commissioner. I acknowledged in my opening remarks that the review was already taking place, but it is important to have debates such as this to get the Minister on the record, as we have done a few times in Committee, and she has now made clear what will happen.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
New clause 25—Broadband: rollout—
“(1) The Secretary of State may by regulations set targets for electronic communications bodies to roll out, to businesses and commercial organisations, more than 95% coverage of—
(a) basic broadband,
(b) superfast broadband, and
(c) mobile phone coverage
by the end of 2016.
(2) The Secretary of State must prepare and publish an annual report assessing the progress that has been made on the targets provided for by subsection (1), and the impact of—
(a) basic broadband,
(b) superfast broadband and
(c) mobile coverage technology
on enterprise and growth in the rural economy.
(3) The report provided for in subsection (2) should be laid before both Houses of Parliament.”
New clause 26—Broadband: rollout to business parks—
“The Secretary of State shall direct Broadband Delivery UK to include business parks and industrial estates, including those in non-residential areas, in their plans for roll out of universal superfast broadband.”
Kevin Brennan
I will be extremely brief. We rehearsed a lot of what I wanted to say on these new clauses, which are to do with digital roll-out, earlier in stand part debates on such matters. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
New Clause 31
Business rate: Exemptions
“Agricultural land and buildings used for cultural events and festivals are exempt from business rates and the provisions outlined in sections 25 and 26.”—(Kevin Brennan.)
Brought up, and read the First time.
Kevin Brennan
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Subject to hon. Members, this might be the final substantial matter we discuss in Committee, certainly on the bits that I intend to cover. I hope we will have time at the end for the traditional points of order and it looks like we will, so I will not make such remarks at this point.
The new clause deals with festivals. The British farming industry is still under threat from a number of directions and the advice that all of us, under different Governments, have given farmers is to diversify, think laterally and be innovative. Many have done so and some have decided to use their assets such as land, barns and so on for occasional festivals and cultural events.
I know you are an MP4 fan, Sir David, so you will not be surprised to hear that my band—perhaps I should declare an interest, although we do not get paid—MP4 has performed at festivals in hon. Members’ constituencies from across the House, being a cross-party venture. The group includes the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), the right hon. Member for East Yorkshire (Sir Greg Knight) and the former Member for Brigg and Goole. We have an interest because we have direct experience of participating as performers and of being in the audience at such events. I know that many right hon. and hon. Members enjoy festivals in their constituencies and right across the country.
The Valuation Office Agency—we are back on that subject again—is now pursuing those farmers for additional rates and in some cases it is making that retrospective by turning up at farmers’ houses and presenting them with bills that go back several years if they have held festivals on their land. In some cases, the rate demands have been as high as £60,000. That was discussed in the Lords, and Lord Stevenson asked for derogation to be offered for short-lived and one-off festivals. Such festivals, as we have heard, are often in rural areas and bring much-needed economic activity to many suppliers in the locality, even on a Sunday. The cultural benefits that can accrue should also be taken into consideration. Imposing steep business rates for occasional events may lead to the events not taking place.
In replying to the debate in the other place, Baroness Neville-Rolfe said:
“I can assure noble Lords that if there are no permanent physical adaptations to the land to facilitate, for example, festival use, and the duration…is only a matter of a few days, it is unlikely to attract a rating assessment in its own right, and any festival operator or land owner who is unsure of when they may incur a rates bill should contact the Valuation Office Agency… I also know that the Valuation Office Agency recognises the need for clarity and consistency in this sector and is working with the industry to draw up guidance to help event organisers. It hopes to have guidance ready…for the festival season next year.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 2 November 2015; Vol. 765, c. GC314.]
She said that last year. From previous exchanges in Committee, I thought that we were not encouraging people to go to the Valuation Office Agency and to start clogging up the system with even more requests for information and even more appeals against ratings, but that is the Minister’s advice. She seems to indicate that she anticipates that festivals such as the ones I am talking about, where farmers try to make innovative use of their land but where it is not the mainstay of their business in any way, shape or form—they are effectively hiring out their land; they are not building major infrastructure on their land—should not be attracting rates in the way that the Valuation Office Agency seems to be pursuing.
The festival season will soon be upon us. It is hard to believe it sometimes, looking at the weather, but spring is on its way—I think spring officially starts on Tuesday, St David’s day, and we may see the odd daffodil poking through soon. Will the Minister for Small Business, Industry and Enterprise inform the Committee—[Interruption.] I am pausing so that she can hear what I am saying to her.
Kevin Brennan
She says she is listening. She is remarkable, because she can speak and listen at the same time. That is one of her many remarkable talents.
Will the Minister inform the Committee of what progress has been made on this issue since it was discussed in the House of Lords in November? Can she clarify some of Baroness Neville-Rolfe’s comments? Baroness Neville-Rolfe said that
“if there are no permanent physical adaptations…it is unlikely to attract a rating assessment in its own right”.
When she said that, she talked about “a few days”, and I would like some clarity. Are we talking about two days, three days, four days? Will a week count as a few days, or is it less than a week? Some clarity would help people who are holding festivals, as would clarity on what constitutes a “permanent physical adaptation”. If someone builds a bridge over a stream, is that a permanent physical adaptation, or are we talking about the building of hard standing or something of that kind? If a farmer improves health and safety on their farm to accommodate lots of festivalgoers, is that the sort of thing that means the Valuation Office Agency will immediately start taking an interest?
Can the Minister assure us that the Valuation Office Agency’s advice will be uniform across the country? Has there been an attempt to provide clarity and consistency in ministerial advice to Valuation Office Agency officers? We have heard about the backlog of 300,000 rate appeals, so clarity and consistency of advice would help to prevent unnecessary appeals. I hope the Minister can say something positive about that, given what Baroness Neville-Rolfe said in the Lords about looking at the matter further.
Lord Stevenson informed the Grand Committee that Valuation Office Agency officers had begun to raise invoices against landowners for the use of their land for festivals. How did that start to come about? Has there been a central instruction to do it? What is the Minister’s view of the Valuation Office Agency pursuing such things retrospectively, sometimes going back several years? Does the Department have a position on whether that should happen or whether, if the Valuation Office Agency is going to start levying rates on festivals, it should not be done retrospectively?
This is a probing new clause. If the Minister can provide some information about the progress that the Government have made since this was discussed in the Lords, I will withdraw it at the end of her response.
Anna Soubry
If there is no permanent physical adaptation to the land to facilitate festival use, and the duration of the festival is a matter of only a few days, it is very unlikely to attract a rating assessment in its own right. That is true whether the festival is on agricultural land or anywhere else. We do not dispute that some event organisers struggle with the rules, so the Valuation Office Agency is working with the industry to help event organisers understand the rules and how to comply.
In many instances, the people organising that sort of event work hand in glove with their local authority. These are all local matters. I am of the view, perhaps unlike Labour Members, that we can trust local authorities to work with people, come to the right decisions and exercise bucketloads of good common sense so the rules are not misinterpreted or over-interpreted.
I have helpfully been told that the Valuation Office Agency’s review of festivals is now complete, and that rate payers should now be clear about any potential ratings liability. They are encouraged to contact the agency if they are in any way unclear about them. That review has taken place.
We have given local authorities wide powers to grant rate relief in such circumstances. Where they do so, central Government will pick up half the cost. We are looking at reliefs and exemptions in any event as part of the business rate review, which is due to report in the Budget next month. We do not want to pre-empt the result of it. I hope that answers the hon. Gentleman’s questions and satisfies him.
Kevin Brennan
I am grateful to the Minister for her response. I will get into some more detail later, while giving it further consideration.
I said that my band played at festivals in several right hon. and hon. Members’ constituencies, one of which was the constituency of the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions. After this debate, I will check with him about whether that festival attracted any ratings. As a charitable local event, it does not have a permanent structure in place on the farmer’s field in which it is held.
It is right that we trust local authorities, but it is also right that parliamentarians respond to concerns brought to us from around the country by local people who have been affected by decisions taken at a local level. It is our duty to raise them in Parliament, debate them and compare what is going on around the country to see whether in some places very different interpretations are being made, and to ensure fairness and consistency. It is our job to do that, so it is entirely appropriate that we debate this issue, as they did in their Lordships’ House. I am grateful to the Minister for her response. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
New Schedule 1
Sunday opening hours: rights of shop workers
Employment Rights Act 1996
1 The Employment Rights Act 1996 is amended as follows.
2 In section 41 (opted-out shop workers and betting workers), for subsection (3) substitute—
(3) In this Act “notice period”, in relation to an opted-out shop worker or an opted-out betting worker, means—
(a) in the case of an opted-out shop worker who does shop work in or about a large shop, the period of one month beginning with the day on which the opting-out notice concerned was given;
(b) in any other case, the period of three months beginning with that day.
This subsection is subject to sections 41D(2) and 42(2).”
3 After section 41 insert—
“41A Notice of objection by shop workers to working additional hours on Sunday
(1) A shop worker may at any time give to his or her employer a written notice, signed and dated by the shop worker, to the effect that he or she objects to doing shop work for additional hours on Sunday.
(2) In this Part—
“additional hours” means any number of hours of shop work that a shop worker is (or could be) required to work under a contract of employment on Sunday that are(or would be) in excess of the shop worker’s normal Sunday working hours;
“objection notice” means a notice given under subsection (1).
(3) The “normal Sunday working hours” of a shop worker are to be calculated in accordance with regulations.
(4) Regulations under this section may provide—
(a) for the calculation to be determined (for example) by reference to the average number of hours that the shop worker has worked on Sundays during a period specified or described in the regulations;
(b) for a calculation of the kind mentioned in paragraph (a) to be varied in special cases;
(c) for the right to give an objection notice not to be exercisable in special cases (and subsection (1) is subject to provision made by virtue of this paragraph).
(5) Provision under subsection (4)( b) or (c) may, in particular, include provision—
(a) about how the calculation of normal Sunday working hours is to be made in the case of a shop worker who has not been employed for a sufficient period of time to enable a calculation to be made as otherwise provided for in the regulations;
(b) for the right to give an objection notice not to be exercisable by such a shop worker until he or she has completed a period of employment specified or described in the regulations.
(6) But regulations under this section may not include provision preventing a shop worker who has been continuously employed under a contract of employment for a period of one year or more from giving to the employer an objection notice.
(7) Regulations under this section may make different provision for different purposes.
41B Explanatory statement: persons who become shop workers
(1) This section applies where a person becomes a shop worker who, under a contract of employment, is or may be required to do shop work on Sundays.
(2) The employer must give to the shop worker a written statement informing the shop worker of the following rights—
(a) the right to object to working on Sundays by giving the employer an opting-out notice (if section 40 applies to the shop worker);
(b) the right to object to doing shop work for additional hours on Sundays by giving the employer an objection notice.
(3) The statement must be given before the end of the period of two months beginning with the day on which the person becomes a shop worker as mentioned in subsection (1).
(4) An employer does not fail to comply with subsections (2) and (3) in a case where, before the end of the period referred to in subsection (3), the shop worker has given to the employer an opting-out notice (and that notice has not been withdrawn).
(5) A statement under this section must comply with such requirements as to form and content as regulations may provide.
(6) Regulations under this section may make different provision for different purposes.
41C Explanatory statement: shop workers at commencement date
(1) This section applies where—
(a) under a contract of employment a shop worker is or may be required to do shop work on Sundays, and
(b) the shop worker was employed under that contract on the day before the commencement date.
(2) The shop worker’s employer must give to the shop worker a written statement informing the shop worker of the rights mentioned in section 41B(2).
(3) The statement must be given before the end of the period of two months beginning with the commencement date.
(4) An employer does not fail to comply with subsections (2) and (3) in a case where, before the end of the period referred to in subsection (3), the shop worker has given to the employer an opting-out notice (and that notice has not been withdrawn).
(5) A statement under this section must comply with such requirements as to form and content as regulations may provide.
(6) Regulations under this section may make different provision for different purposes.
(7) In this section “commencement date” means the date appointed by regulations under section38 of the Enterprise Act 2016 for the coming into force of section (Extended Sunday opening hour and Sunday working)(5) of, and Schedule (Sunday opening hours: rights of shop workers) to, that Act.
41D Failure to give explanatory statement under section 41B or 41C
(1) This section applies if an employer fails to give to a shop worker a written statement in accordance with—
(a) section 41B(2) and (3), or
(b) section 41C(2) and (3).
(2) If the shop worker gives to the employer an opting-out notice, the notice period under section 41(3) that applies in relation to the shop worker is varied as follows—
(a) if the notice period under that provision would have been one month, it becomes 7 days instead;
(b) if the notice period under that provision would have been three months, it becomes one month instead.
(3) If the shop worker gives to the employer an objection notice, the relevant period under section 43ZA(2) that applies in relation to the shop worker is varied as follows—
(a) if the relevant period under that provision would have been one month, it becomes 7 days instead;
(b) if the relevant period under that provision would have been three months, it becomes one month instead.”
4 (1) Section 42 (explanatory statement) is amended as follows.
(2) In the heading, after “statement” insert “: betting workers”.
(3) In subsection (1) omit “shop worker or”.
(4) In subsection (2)—
(a) in paragraph (a) omit “shop worker or”;
(b) in paragraph (b)—
(i) after “the” omit “shop worker or”;
(ii) omit “an opted-out shop worker or”.
(5) In subsection (3) omit “shop worker or”.
(6) Omit subsection (4).
(7) In subsection (6)—
(a) for “forms” substitute “form”;
(b) for “subsections (4) and (5)” substitute “subsection (5)”.
5 In the heading of section 43, after “work” insert “: opting-out notices”.
6 After section 43 (in Part 4) insert—
“43ZA Contractual requirements relating to working additional hours on Sundays: objection notices
(1) Where a shop worker gives to his or her employer an objection notice, any agreement entered into between the shop worker and the employer becomes unenforceable to the extent that—
(a) it requires the shop worker to do shop work for additional hours on Sunday after the end of the relevant period, or
(b) it requires the employer to provide the shop worker with shop work for additional hours on Sunday after the end of that period.
(2) The “relevant period” is—
(a) in the case of a shop worker who is or may be required to do shop work in or about a large shop, the period of one month beginning with the day on which the objection notice is given;
(b) in any other case, the period of three months beginning with that day.
This subsection is subject to section 41D(3).
(3) A shop worker who has given an objection notice may revoke the notice by giving a further written notice to the employer.
(4) Where—
(a) a shop worker gives to the employer a notice under subsection (3), and
(b) after giving the notice the shop worker expressly agrees with the employer to do shop work for additional hours on Sunday (whether on Sundays generally or on a particular Sunday),
the contract of employment between the shop worker and the employer is to be taken to be varied to the extent necessary to give effect to the terms of the agreement.
(5) The reference in subsection (1) to any agreement—
(a) includes the contract of employment under which the shop worker is employed immediately before giving the objection notice;
(b) includes an agreement of a kind mentioned in subsection (4), or a contract of employment as taken to be varied under that subsection, only if an objection notice is given in relation to the working of additional hours under that agreement or contract as varied.
43ZB Interpretation
(1) In this Part—
“additional hours” has the meaning given in section 41A(2);
“large shop” means a shop which has a relevant floor area exceeding 280 square metres;
“objection notice” has the meaning given in section 41A(2);
“regulations” means regulations made by the Secretary of State.
(2) In the definition of “large shop” in subsection (1)—
(a) “shop” means any premises where there is carried on a trade or business consisting wholly or mainly of the sale of goods;
(b) “relevant floor area” means the internal floor area of so much of the large shop in question as consists of or is comprised in a building.
(3) For the purposes of subsection (2), any part of the shop which is not used for the serving of customers in connection with the sale or display of goods is to be disregarded.
(4) The references in subsections (2) and (3) to the sale of goods does not include—
(a) the sale of meals, refreshments or alcohol (within the meaning of the Licensing Act 2003) for consumption on the premises on which they are sold, or
(b) the sale of meals or refreshments prepared to order for immediate consumption off those premises.”
7 After section 45 insert—
“45ZA Sunday working for shop workers: additional hours
(1) Subsection (2) applies where a shop worker has given an objection notice to his or her employer and the notice has not been withdrawn.
(2) The shop worker has the right not to be subjected to any detriment by any act, or any deliberate failure to act, by the employer done on the ground that the shop worker refused (or proposed to refuse) to do shop work for additional hours on Sunday or on a particular Sunday.
(3) Subsection (2) does not apply to anything done on the ground that the shop worker refused (or proposed to refuse) to do shop work for additional hours on any Sunday or Sundays falling before the end of the relevant period.
(4) A shop worker has the right not to be subjected to any detriment by any act, or any deliberate failure to act, by his or her employer on the ground that the shop worker gave (or proposed to give) an objection notice to the employer.
(5) Subsections (2) and (4) do not apply where the detriment in question amounts to dismissal (within the meaning of Part 10).
(6) For the purposes of this section, a shop worker who does not do shop work for additional hours on Sunday or on a particular Sunday is not to be regarded as having been subjected to any detriment by—
(a) a failure to pay remuneration in respect of doing shop work for additional hours on Sunday which the shop worker has not done, or
(7) Subsections (8) and (9) apply where—
(a) an employer offers to pay a sum specified in the offer to a shop worker if he or she agrees to do shop work for additional hours on Sunday or on a particular Sunday, and
(b) the shop worker—
(i) has given an objection notice to the employer that has not been withdrawn, or
(ii) is not obliged under a contract of employment to do shop work for additional hours on Sunday.
(8) A shop worker to whom the offer is not made is not to be regarded for the purposes of this section as having been subjected to any detriment by any failure—
(a) to make the offer to the shop worker, or
(b) to pay the shop worker the sum specified in the offer.
(9) A shop worker who does not accept the offer is not to be regarded for the purposes of this section as having been subjected to any detriment by any failure to pay the shop worker the sum specified in the offer.
(10) In this section—
“additional hours” and “objection notice” have the meanings given by section 41A(2);
“relevant period” means the period determined by section 43ZA(2) (but subject to section 41D(3)).”
8 After section 101 insert—
“101ZA Shop workers who refuse to work additional hours on Sunday
(1) Subsection (2) applies where a shop worker has given an objection notice that has not been withdrawn and he or she is dismissed.
(2) The shop worker is to be regarded for the purposes of this Part as unfairly dismissed if the reason (or the principal reason) for the dismissal is that he or she refused, or proposed to refuse, to do shop work for additional hours on Sunday or on a particular Sunday.
(3) Subsection (2) does not apply where the reason (or principal reason) for the dismissal is that the shop worker refused (or proposed to refuse) to do shop work for additional hours on any Sunday or Sundays falling before the end of the relevant period.
(4) A shop worker who is dismissed is to be regarded for the purposes of this Part as unfairly dismissed if the reason (or principal reason) for the dismissal is that the worker gave (or proposed to give) an objection notice to the employer.
(5) In this section—
“additional hours” and “objection notice” have the meanings given by section 41A(2);
“relevant period” means the period determined by section 43ZA(2) (but subject to section 41D(3)).”
9 In section 236 (orders and regulations), in subsection (3) after “27B,” insert “41A that include provision under subsection (4)(c) of that section,”.
Employment Act 2002
10 In section 38 of the Employment Act 2002 (failure to give statement of employment particulars etc)—
(a) in subsection (2)(b), after “change)” insert “or under section 41B or 41C of that Act (duty to give a written statement in relation to rights not to work on Sunday)”;
(b) in subsection (3)(b), after “1996” insert “or under section 41B or 41C of that Act”.”
This new Schedule contains amendments to employment legislation. The amendments: (a) shorten the notice period for opting out of Sunday work in the case of shop workers at large shops, (b) confer a new right to object to working additional hours on Sunday, (c) require employers to give statements explaining those rights, (d) confer protections against detriment and unfair dismissal for refusing to work additional hours on Sunday, and (e) provide for fines in tribunal proceedings if there is a failure to give explanatory statements.
Brought up, and read the First time.
Amendments made: (a), line 128 in paragraph 4(4), after paragraph (b) insert—
“(c) in the words after paragraph (b), omit “shop worker or””
This is a technical amendment of NS1 which removes a further reference to a shop worker from section 42 of the Employment Rights Act 1996 (as that section is to apply only to betting workers as a consequence of other amendments made by this New Schedule).
Amendment (b), line 192 in paragraph 6, in new section 43ZB(4)(a), after “2003” insert
“or, in relation to Scotland, the Licensing (Scotland) Act 2005 (asp 16)”—(Brandon Lewis.)
This is a technical amendment that provides for a definition of “alcohol” in relation to Scotland by reference to the relevant legislation of the Scottish Parliament.
New schedule 1, as amended, read a Second time, and added to the Bill.
New Schedule 2
The Institute for Apprenticeships
1 The Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009 is amended as follows.
2 In Part 1 (apprenticeships, study and training) before Chapter A1 insert—
“Chapter ZA1
The Institute for Apprenticeships
Establishment
ZA1 The Institute for Apprenticeships
‘(1) A body corporate known as the Institute for Apprenticeships is established.
(2) In this Act that body is referred to as “the IfA”.
(3) Schedule A1 makes further provision about the IfA.
General duties and functions
ZA2 General duties
‘(1) So far as relevant, and subject to any notice given by the Secretary of State under subsection (2), in performing its functions the IfA must have regard to—
(a) the reasonable requirements of industry, commerce, finance, the professions and other employers regarding education and training within the IfA’s remit;
(b) the reasonable requirements of persons who may wish to undertake education and training within the IfA’s remit;
(c) the need to ensure that education and training within the IfA’s remit is of an appropriate quality;
(d) the need to ensure that education and training within the IfA’s remit represents good value in relation to financial resources provided out of public funds;
(e) any information provided to it by any person designated by the Secretary of State for the purposes of this paragraph.
(2) The Secretary of State may give a notice in writing to the IfA setting out other matters to which the IfA must have regard when performing its functions.
(3) The Secretary of State may not give a notice under subsection (2) more than once in any financial year (within the meaning given by section ZA6(6)), except as provided by subsection (4).
(4) Where in a financial year—
(a) a notice is given under subsection (2), and
(b) after the giving of the notice a new Parliament meets for the first time,
the Secretary of State may give one further notice under subsection (2) in that year.
(5) The IfA must perform its functions efficiently and effectively.
(6) For the purposes of this section, education or training is within the IfA’s remit if the education or training is or may be provided in the course of an approved English apprenticeship.
(7) Subsection (1) and any notice under subsection (2) do not apply in relation to functions that are— Where directions or regulations so provide, the directions or regulations—
(a) delegated by directions under section ZA4, or
(b) conferred by regulations under section ZA5,
unless the regulations or directions provide for them to apply in relation to the functions.
(c) may provide for any education or training to which the functions relate to be treated as within the IfA’s remit for the purposes of this section;
(d) may provide for subsection (1) and any notice under subsection (2) to apply in relation to the functions with such modifications as the Secretary of State thinks fit.
(8) The Secretary of State must—
(a) publish in such manner as the Secretary of State thinks fit any notice under subsection (2), and
(b) lay a copy of it before Parliament.
ZA3 Provision of advice and assistance to the Secretary of State etc
‘(1) The IfA may, if requested to do so by the Secretary of State, provide the Secretary of State with advice and assistance in connection with the Secretary of State’s functions relating to apprenticeships in relation to England.
(2) The Secretary of State’s functions mentioned in subsection (1) include those under section 100(1A) or otherwise relating to the funding of apprenticeships in relation to England.
ZA4 Delegation of functions to the IfA by Secretary of State
‘(1) The Secretary of State may by direction delegate to the IfA any of the Secretary of State’s functions relating to apprenticeships in relation to England.
(2) The functions may be delegated—
(a) to any extent that the Secretary of State specifies in the direction, and
(b) subject to any conditions that the Secretary of State specifies in the direction.
(3) The Secretary of State’s functions mentioned in subsection (1) include those under section 100(1A) or otherwise relating to the funding of apprenticeships in relation to England.
ZA5 Conferral of further functions on the IfA by regulations
‘(1) The Secretary of State may by regulations confer on the IfA such functions relating to apprenticeships in relation to England as the Secretary of State considers appropriate.
(2) A function conferred by regulations under subsection (1) may involve the exercise of a discretion.
ZA6 Annual and other reports
‘(1) As soon as reasonably practicable after the end of each financial year, the IfA must prepare an annual report.
(2) An annual report is a report which includes—
(a) a description of what the IfA has done during the year, including a description of what the IfA has done as a result of any notice given by the Secretary of State under section ZA2(2),
(b) the statement of accounts prepared for that year under paragraph 11 of Schedule A1, and
(c) such other provision as the Secretary of State may direct.
(3) The IfA must send the report to the Secretary of State as soon as reasonably practicable after it has been prepared.
(4) The Secretary of State must lay a copy of the report before Parliament.
(5) The Secretary of State may direct the IfA to prepare, and send to the Secretary of State, as soon as reasonably practicable a report on any matter relating to its functions.
(6) In this section “financial year” means—
(a) the period beginning with the day on which this section comes into force and ending with the following 31 March, and
(b) each successive period of 12 months.
Compliance
ZA7 Secretary of State directions where the IfA fails to discharge duties etc
If the Secretary of State is satisfied that the IfA—
(a) has failed to discharge a duty imposed on it by or under this Act, or
(b) has acted or is proposing to act in an unreasonable way in exercising any function,
the Secretary of State may give the IfA such directions as the Secretary of State considers appropriate.
Directions
ZA8 General provision about directions under Chapters ZA1 and A1
‘(1) This section applies to a direction given to the IfA by the Secretary of State under this Chapter or Chapter A1.
(2) The IfA must comply with the direction.
(3) The direction must be in writing.”
3 Before section A1 insert—
“Introductory”
4 In section A1 (meaning of “approved English apprenticeship”), in subsection (3)(a) for “the Secretary of State has published an approved apprenticeship standard under section A2” substitute “an approved apprenticeship standard has been published under section A2”.
5 For section A2 (approved apprenticeship standards) substitute—
“Publication of standards and assessment plans
A2 Apprenticeship standards and assessment plans
‘(1) The IfA must publish—
(a) standards for such sectors of work as the IfA considers appropriate for the purposes of this Chapter, and
(b) assessment plans in respect of published standards.
(2) Each standard must—
(b) if there is more than one standard for the sector, describe the kind of work within the sector to which it relates.
(3) Each standard must set out the outcomes that persons seeking to complete an approved English apprenticeship are expected to attain in order to achieve the standard.
(4) An assessment plan in respect of a standard is a plan in accordance with which a person’s attainment of the outcomes set out in the standard is to be assessed.
(5) Each assessment plan must—
(b) set out the proposed arrangements for evaluating the quality of any assessment provided for by the plan.
(6) The following provisions supplement the provision made by this section—
section A2A makes provision about the preparation of apprenticeship standards and assessment plans;
sections A2B to A2D make provision related to ensuring the quality of apprenticeship assessments;
sections A2E and A2F make provision about the review, revision and withdrawal of apprenticeship standards and assessment plans;
section A2G makes provision for independent examinations of apprenticeship standards and assessment plans;
section A2H makes provision about the maintenance of a published list of apprenticeship standards and assessment plans;
section A2I provides for the automatic transfer to the IfA of copyright in apprenticeship standards and assessment plans.
A2A Preparation of apprenticeship standards and assessment plans
‘(1) Each standard or assessment plan published under section A2 must have been prepared by a group of persons and approved by the IfA.
(2) The group of persons that prepared a standard or assessment plan published under section A2 must have been approved by the IfA for the purposes of this section.
(3) The IfA may provide advice or assistance to a group of persons in connection with the preparation of a standard or assessment plan.
(4) The IfA must publish—
(a) information about matters that it takes into account when deciding whether or not to approve standards or plans for the purposes of subsection (1);
(b) information about matters that it takes into account when deciding whether or not to approve groups of persons for the purposes of subsection (2).
(5) When making a decision of the kind mentioned in subsection (4)(a) or (b) in a particular case, the IfA may also take into account such other matters as it considers appropriate in the case in question.
(6) Information published under subsection (4) may be revised or replaced, and the IfA must publish under that subsection any revised or replacement information.
Quality assurance
A2B Evaluation of quality of apprenticeship assessments
‘(1) The IfA must secure that evaluations are carried out of the quality of apprenticeship assessments provided by persons in relation to assessment plans published under section A2.
(2) “Apprenticeship assessment” means the assessment of a person’s attainment of the outcomes set out in the standard to which the assessment plan relates.
(3) For the purposes of subsection (1) the IfA may approve or make arrangements for other persons to carry out evaluations.
A2C Unsatisfactory apprenticeship assessments
‘(1) If the IfA considers that the quality of any apprenticeship assessment provided by a person is or may become unsatisfactory, it may carry out a review of the assessment, or make arrangements with another person for the carrying out of such a review.
(2) The IfA may, in consequence of a review, make arrangements for the purpose of improving the quality of the assessment to which the review relates.
(3) If the IfA—
(a) considers that the quality of any apprenticeship assessment provided by a person is or may become unsatisfactory, or
(b) that a person who provides an apprenticeship assessment has failed to co-operate with a review carried out under this section or with arrangements made under subsection (2),
it may report the matter to the Secretary of State or such other person as the IfA considers appropriate.
(4) A report under subsection (3) may contain recommendations as to the action to be taken by the person to whom the report is made.
(5) The IfA may publish a report under subsection (3).
A2D Committee to advise on quality evaluations etc
‘(1) The IfA may establish a committee with—
(a) the function of giving the IfA advice on the performance of its functions under sections A2B and A2C, and
(b) such other functions as may be conferred on the committee by the IfA.
(2) A majority of the members of the committee—
(a) must be persons who appear to the IfA to have experience of the assessment of education or training, and
(b) must not be members of the IfA.
(3) Subject to that, Schedule A1 applies to a committee established under this section as it applies to committees established under paragraph 7 of that Schedule.
Review, revision and withdrawal
A2E Regular reviews of published standards and assessment plans
‘(1) The IfA must maintain arrangements for the review at regular intervals of each standard or assessment plan published under this Chapter, with a view to determining whether the standard or plan ought to be revised or withdrawn.
(2) In respect of each standard or assessment plan published under this Chapter, the IfA must publish information about the intervals at which those reviews are to be conducted.
A2F Revision or withdrawal of published standards and assessment plans
‘(1) The IfA may—
(a) publish a revised version of a standard or assessment plan published under this Chapter, or
(b) withdraw a standard or assessment plan published under this Chapter (with or without publishing another in its place).
(2) Section A2A applies in relation to a revised version of a standard or plan published under this section as it applies in relation to a standard or plan published under section A2.
Other provisions about English approved apprenticeships
A2G Examinations by independent third parties
‘(1) Before the IfA approves a standard or assessment plan for the purposes of section A2A(1) it must make arrangements for the carrying out of an examination of the standard or plan by an independent third party.
(2) The duty imposed by subsection (1) does not apply in relation to a revised version of a standard or assessment plan, but the IfA may, for the purposes of a review under section A2E or at any other time, make arrangements for the carrying out of an examination of a standard or assessment plan by an independent third party.
(3) Where an examination of a standard or assessment plan is carried out under this section, the IfA must take account of the finding of the examination in exercising its functions in relation to the standard or plan under this Chapter.
(4) Nothing in subsection (1) prevents the IfA deciding to reject a standard or assessment plan without first making arrangements for the carrying out of an examination by an independent third party.
A2H List of published standards and assessment plans
‘(1) The IfA must maintain a list of the standards and assessment plans published by it under this Chapter.
(2) In respect of each standard and plan listed (including any revised version), the list must include details of when it comes into force.
(3) Where a revised version is listed, the list must include a general description of the cases to which the revised version applies.
(4) Where a standard or plan has been withdrawn, the list must include details of when the withdrawal comes into force and a general description of the cases to which it applies.
(5) The IfA must secure that the list is available free of charge at all reasonable times.
A2I Transfer of copyright in standards and assessment plans
‘(1) This section applies where—
(a) a standard or assessment plan is approved by the IfA undersection A2A, and
(b) a person (other than the IfA) is entitled, immediately before the time the approval is given, to any right or interest in any copyright in the standard or plan.
(2) The right or interest is, by virtue of this section, transferred from that person to the IfA at the time the approval is given.
(3) The IfA must ensure that a standard or assessment plan in relation to which a right or interest has transferred by virtue of subsection (2) is made available to the public, subject to any conditions that the IfA considers appropriate.”
6 (1) Section A3 (power to issue apprenticeship certificate) is amended as follows.
(2) In subsection (1) for “to” substitute “in respect of”.
(3) In subsection (2), for paragraph (b) substitute—
“(b) the supply by the Secretary of State of apprenticeship certificates issued under that subsection, and copies of those certificates, to—
(i) persons in respect of whom they were issued;
(ii) persons for whom those persons work or have worked under approved English apprenticeship agreements to which the certificates relate.”
7 In section 122 (sharing of information for education and training purposes)—
(a) in subsection (3) (persons who may provide and receive information), after paragraph (f) insert—
“(g) the IfA.”;
(b) in subsection (5) (functions for the purposes of which information may be provided)—
(i) omit the “or” at the end of paragraph (b), and
(ii) after paragraph (b) insert—
8 In section 262(6) (orders and regulations subject to affirmative procedure) before paragraph(ab) insert—
“(aab) regulations under section ZA5;”
9 Before Schedule 1 insert—
“Schedule A1
the Institute for Apprenticeships
Status
1 The IfA is to perform its functions on behalf of the Crown.
Membership
2 (1) The IfA is to consist of—
(a) a member appointed by the Secretary of State to chair the IfA (“the chair”);
(b) the chief executive appointed in accordance with paragraph 5;
(c) at least 4 and no more than 10 other members appointed by the Secretary of State.
(2) The chair and members appointed under sub-paragraph (1)(c) are referred to in this Schedule as the “non-executive members”.
Tenure of non-executive members
3 (1) The non-executive members hold and vacate office in accordance with the terms of their appointment.
(2) Those terms are to be determined by the Secretary of State, subject to the following provisions of this Schedule.
(3) A non-executive member must not be appointed for a term of more than five years.
(4) A non-executive member may resign from office at any time by giving written notice to the Secretary of State.
(5) The Secretary of State may remove a non-executive member from office on either of the following grounds—
(a) inability or unfitness to carry out the duties of office;
(b) absence from the IfA’s meetings for a continuous period of more than 6 months without the IfA’s permission.
(6) The previous appointment of a person as a non-executive member does not affect the person’s eligibility for re-appointment.
Remuneration of non-executive members
4 (1) The IfA must, if the Secretary of State requires it to do so, pay remuneration, allowances and expenses to its non-executive members.
(2) The IfA must, if the Secretary of State requires it to do so, pay, or make provision for the payment of, a pension, allowances or gratuities to or in respect of a person who is or has been a non-executive member.
(3) If a person ceases to be a non-executive member of the IfA and the Secretary of State decides that the person should be compensated because of special circumstances, the IfA must pay compensation to the person.
(4) The amount of a payment under sub-paragraph (1), (2) or (3) is to be determined by the Secretary of State.
(5) Service as a non-executive member is one of the kinds of service to which a scheme under section 1 of the Superannuation Act 1972 (superannuation schemes as respects civil servants etc) can apply (see Schedule 1 to that Act).
(6) The IfA must pay to the Minister for the Civil Service, at such times as the Minister may direct, such sums as the Minister may determine in respect of any increase attributable to the provision of pensions, allowances or gratuities under section 1 of the Superannuation Act 1972 payable to or in respect of non-executive members in the sums payable out of money provided by Parliament under the Superannuation Act 1972.
Chief executive and other staff
5 (1) The first chief executive is to be appointed by the Secretary of State on conditions of service determined by the Secretary of State, after consulting the chair.
(2) Subsequent chief executives are to be appointed by the IfA after consulting the Secretary of State.
(3) The chief executive must not be appointed for a term of more than five years.
(4) The previous appointment of a person as chief executive does not affect the person’s eligibility for re-appointment.
(5) The chief executive holds that office as a member of staff of the IfA.
(6) The IfA may appoint other members of staff.
(7) Service as a member of staff of the IfA is employment in the civil service of the State.
(8) The following are to be determined by the IfA with the approval of the Secretary of State—
(a) the number of members of staff of the IfA (in addition to the chief executive);
(b) the conditions of service of staff of the IfA.
(9) Sub-paragraph (8)(b) is subject to sub-paragraph (1).
Arrangements with Secretary of State
6 The Secretary of State and the IfA may enter into arrangements with each other for the provision to the IfA by the Secretary of State, on such terms as may be agreed, of staff, accommodation or services.
Committees
7 (1) The IfA may establish committees, and any committee established by the IfA may establish sub-committees.
(2) The IfA may—
(a) dissolve a sub-committee established under sub-paragraph (1), or
(b) alter the purposes for which such a sub-committee is established.
(3) In this Schedule a committee or sub-committee established under sub-paragraph (1) is referred to as an “IfA committee”.
(4) An IfA committee must include at least two persons who are members of the IfA or its staff.
(5) The IfA may, with the approval of the Secretary of State, arrange for the payment of remuneration, allowances and expenses to any person who—
(a) is a member of an IfA committee, but
(b) is not a member of the IfA or its staff.
(6) The IfA must, if directed to do so by the Secretary of State, review—
(a) the structure of IfA committees, and
(b) the scope of the activities of each IfA committee.
Procedure
8 (1) The IfA may regulate—
(a) its own proceedings (including quorum), and
(b) the procedure (including quorum) of IfA committees.
(2) The validity of proceedings of the IfA, or of an IfA committee, is not affected by—
(a) a vacancy;
(b) a defective appointment.
Exercise of functions
9 (1) Subject to sub-paragraphs (2) and (3), the IfA may authorise any of the following to exercise functions on its behalf—
(a) a member of the IfA;
(b) a member of the IfA’s staff;
(c) an IfA committee;
(d) any other person.
(2) The IfA may not authorise any of the functions under sections A2, A2A and A2E to A2I to be exercised on its behalf—
(a) under sub-paragraph (1)(c), by a committee a majority of the members of which are not members of the IfA’s staff, or
(b) under sub-paragraph (1)(d).
(3) The IfA may authorise the exercise on its behalf of functions that have been—
(a) delegated to the IfA by directions under section ZA4, or
(b) conferred on the IfA by regulations under section ZA5,
only if and to the extent that the directions or regulations so provide.
Supplementary powers
10 (1) The IfA may—
(a) provide information or advice to any person in connection with any of the IfA’s functions;
(b) co-operate or work jointly with any person where it is appropriate to do so for the efficient and effective performance of any of the IfA’s functions;
(c) carry out research for the purposes of, or in connection with, the IfA’s functions;
(d) do anything else that the IfA considers necessary or appropriate for the purposes of, or in connection with, its functions.
(2) The power in sub-paragraph (1)(d) is subject to any restrictions imposed by or under any provision of any Act.
(3) The IfA may not borrow money.
(4) The IfA may not, without the consent of the Secretary of State—
(a) lend money,
(b) form, participate in forming or invest in a company, or
(c) form, participate in forming or otherwise become a member of a charitable incorporated organisation (within the meaning of section 69A of the Charities Act 1993).
(5) In sub-paragraph (4) the reference to investing in a company includes a reference to becoming a member of the company and to investing in it by the acquisition of any assets, securities or rights or otherwise.
Accounts and reports
11 (1) The IfA must—
(a) keep proper accounts and proper records in relation to its accounts, and
(b) prepare in respect of each financial year a statement of accounts.
(2) Each statement of accounts must comply with any directions given by the Secretary of State as to—
(a) the information to be contained in it,
(b) the manner in which such information is to be presented, or
(c) the methods and principles according to which the statement is to be prepared.
(3) The IfA must send a copy of each statement of accounts to—
(a) the Secretary of State, and
(b) the Comptroller and Auditor General,
before the end of the month of August following the financial year to which the statement relates.
(4) The Comptroller and Auditor General must—
(a) examine, certify and report on each statement of accounts, and
(b) send a copy of each report and certified statement to the Secretary of State.
(5) The Secretary of State must lay before Parliament—
(a) a copy of each statement sent to the Secretary of State under sub-paragraph (3), and
(b) a copy of each report and certified statement sent to the Secretary of State under sub-paragraph (4).
(6) “Financial year” has the meaning given by section ZA6(6) (annual and other reports).
Application of seal and proof of documents
12 (1) The application of the IfA’s seal must be authenticated by the signature of—
(a) the chief executive, or
(b) a member of the IfA who has been authorised by the IfA for that purpose (whether generally or specifically).
(2) A document purporting to be duly executed under the IfA’s seal, or signed on its behalf—
(a) is to be received in evidence, and
(b) is to be treated as executed or signed in that way, unless the contrary is proved.
Funding
13 (1) The Secretary of State may make grants to the IfA, or provide the IfA with any other kind of financial assistance, subject to any conditions that the Secretary of State considers appropriate.
(2) The conditions may, in particular—
(a) enable the Secretary of State to require full or partial repayment of sums paid by the Secretary of State if any of the conditions are not complied with;
(b) require the payment of interest in respect of any period during which a sum due to the Secretary of State in accordance with any of the conditions remains unpaid.”
10 In Schedule 1 to the Superannuation Act 1972, in the list of “Offices”, at the appropriate place insert—“Non-executive member of the Institute for Apprenticeships.”
11 In Part 6 of Schedule 1 to the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (public authorities) at the appropriate place insert—
“The Institute for Apprenticeships.” —(Anna Soubry.)
This new Schedule establishes the Institute for Apprenticeships and makes provision about its functions.
Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.
Clauses 36 and 37 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 38
Commencement
Amendment made: 76, in clause 38, page 54, line 29, at end insert—
“() section (Extended Sunday opening hours and Sunday working)(5), and Schedule (Sunday working hours: rights of shop workers) (Sunday working hours: rights of shop workers), for the purpose of enabling the exercise of any power to make regulations under any provision of the Employment Rights Act 1996 inserted by that Schedule;” —(Anna Soubry.)
This amendment provides for the power to make regulations under sections 41A to 41C of the Employment Rights Act 1996 to come into force on Royal Assent. These provisions confer powers to make regulations about the meaning of “normal Sunday working hours” and the form and content of explanatory statements.
Anna Soubry
I beg to move amendment 19, in clause 38, page 54, line 30, at end insert—
“() paragraph 2 of Schedule2 (things to be included in Secretary of State’s report in respect of the business impact target), and section14 (which introduces Schedule 2) so far as relating to that paragraph;”
This amendment provides for paragraph 2 of Schedule 2 to come into force on Royal Assent.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss Government amendments 20, 21 and 22.
Anna Soubry
In short, amendments 19 and 20 allow earlier commencement of changes to the Secretary of State’s reporting duties under the business impact target. Amendment 21 will allow the funding power of UK Government Investments to be brought into effect by Treasury regulations.
Amendments 19 and 20 will ensure that the streamlined business impact target reporting requirements will take effect in time for the first annual report in June of this year. Amendment 21 affects clause 29, which is on the funding power for UK Government Investments—to be known as UKGI—and is currently commenced by the Secretary of State. As the Treasury has no Secretary of State, this is a technical amendment that will allow the Treasury to bring clause 29 into effect by making regulations.
Amendment 22 is a minor, technical amendment to clarify clause 38 and does not affect the substance of the Bill.
Amendment 19 agreed to.
Amendments made: 20, in clause 38, page 54, line 44, at end insert
“(so far as not already in force under subsection (1)).”
This clarifying amendment acknowledges that although Schedule 2 is generally to come into force 2 months after Royal Assent, one of its provisions (paragraph 2) will come into force on Royal Assent under subsection (1) of the clause (see amendment 19).
Amendment 21, in clause 38, page 55, line 4, leave out subsection (4) and insert—
‘(4) The following provisions of this Act come into force on such day as the Treasury may by regulations appoint—
(a) section 29 (UK Government Investments Limited);
(b) section 35 and Schedule 4 (restriction on public sector exit payments).”
This amendment provides for clause 29 to come into force by regulations made by the Treasury (instead of by regulations made by the Secretary of State).
Amendment 22, in clause 38, page 55, line 6, leave out “The remaining” and insert
“Subject to subsections (1) to (4), the” —(Anna Soubry.)
This clarifying amendment acknowledges that provisions that are to come into force by regulations under subsection (5) of clause 38 may already have come into force for particular purposes under preceding provisions of the clause.
Clause 38, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 39
Extent
Amendments made: 23, in clause 39, page 55, line 15, leave out “and 15” and insert “, 15 and 18 to 21”
This amendment is made for drafting consistency. It ensures that the extent of paragraphs 18 to 21 of Schedule 1 is governed by clause 39(4), which provides for an amendment to have the same extent as the enactment amended. The enactments amended by those paragraphs extend to England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, so the clause’s effect is not changed.
Amendment 24, in clause 39, page 55, line 16, at end insert—
“() subsections (5) to (9) of section14 (application of changes relating to the business impact target in relation to the relevant period in which they come into force);”
This amendment clarifies that subsections (5) to (9) of section 14 extend to England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.
Amendment 25, in clause 39, page 55, line 16, at end insert—
“() section (Apprenticeships: information sharing) (apprenticeships: information sharing);”
This amendment provides for NC3 to have UK wide extent.
Amendment 26, in clause 39, page 55, line 17, leave out “Part 5” and insert “sections 22 and 23”
This amendment clarifies that the extent of clause 24 (which amends the Limitation Act 1980) is governed by section 39(4) (which means that it extends to England and Wales), unlike the other provisions of Part 5 (sections 22 and 23) which extend to England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.
Amendment 27, in clause 39, page 55, line 25, leave out subsection (2)
This amendment is made for drafting consistency. It removes subsection (2) of clause 39, which is not needed because the same effect is achieved by the general provision in subsection (4) of the clause.
Amendment 94, in clause 39, page 55, line 28, at end insert—
‘( ) Section (The Institute for Apprenticeships: transitional provision) extends to England and Wales.”
This amendment provides for NC23 containing transitional provision relating to the Institute for Apprenticeships to extend to England and Wales.
Amendment 28, in clause 39, page 55, line 29, at beginning insert “Subject to subsection (1),” —(Anna Soubry.)
This clarifying amendment acknowledges that the extent of certain amendments of enactments made by the Bill is provided for by subsection (1).
Clause 39, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 40
Short Title
Anna Soubry
I beg to move amendment 29, in clause 40, page 55, line 33, leave out subsection (2)
This amendment removes the privilege amendment inserted by the Lords.
The amendment deals with the title of the Act and is very short. I am sure that it will not be controversial.
Amendment 29 agreed to.
Clause 40, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Title
Amendment made: 77, in title, line 1, at end insert
“provision about Sunday opening hours and Sunday working;”—(Anna Soubry.)
This amendment amends the long title of the Bill so as to include a reference to the provisions about Sunday opening hours and rights to opt out of Sunday working, as provided for by NC21 and NS2.
Kevin Brennan
On a point of order, Sir David. As we have now reached, in good time, as we always were going to, the point where we wrap up the Committee proceedings, I thought I should take the opportunity to thank you and your co-Chair, Ms Buck, for the excellent way in which you have chaired our proceedings and kept us all in order. Even though we attempted to wander off the path on occasion, you quite rightly led us back on to it, for which we are very grateful. I hope that you will pass that on to Ms Buck.
I thank the Clerks of the Committee, the Doorkeepers, the police, the civil servants and the Hansard reporters. On behalf of the Opposition, I thank the Ministers for the courteous way in which they have conducted proceedings and for responding to our questions most of the time. I also thank Government Members for their contributions, which have enhanced our debates. It is important that Members take the opportunity to participate in Committee.
I thank those members of the public who have attended and watched proceedings, and I thank the Whips for their help—
Kevin Brennan
As a former Government Whip, I have some sympathy with my right hon. Friend, but there is a certain freemasonry of the Whips that always stays with one. I once had lunch with the former deputy Chief Whip of the Conservative Government, Sir Bernard Weatherill, who was also Speaker of the House. He told me that we could not have civilisation without sewers and we could not have Parliament without the Whips. I say to the Government Whip that both should remain pretty much underground for pretty much the same reason. Although he has wanted to contribute to our debates from time to time, there are very good reasons why he should remain silent.
I thank our staff who helped us to prepare. Having served on both sides of a Committee, I can say that debating a Bill in opposition is the parliamentary equivalent of digging a ditch: you work very hard down in a hole, sometimes not really making much progress, and nobody can see you. I am relieved, if I can put it that way, that we have reached the end of this stage of the Bill, but I thank our staff, meagre as they are, as well as the volunteers and others who have helped us to prepare for the Committee.
I thank our friends from the Scottish National party for their contributions, and I thank my right hon. and hon. Friends for their contributions, because they have been absolutely fantastic. On that basis, I commend the Bill as it goes off to Report. We will have a lot more to say at that stage on many of the issues we have discussed.
Hannah Bardell
Further to that point of order, Sir David, I echo the comments of the hon. Member for Cardiff West and thank all the Clerks and staff and yourself and Ms Buck. This is the second Bill Committee that I have been part of, but it is the first for my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun, and I know I speak on his behalf when I say that it has been a largely enjoyable experience.
Hannah Bardell
Perhaps I am misspeaking.
We are disappointed that more amendments were not accepted, but it has certainly been interesting and engaging and, as the hon. Member for Cardiff West says, I am sure that there will be extensive debate when the Bill returns to the Floor of the House. I thank you again, Sir David, on behalf of myself and my hon. Friend.
Anna Soubry
Further to that point of order, I add my thanks for your chairmanship, Sir David, and for that of Ms Buck. It has been a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship.
I should put it on record that the first time I ever sat on a Public Bill Committee was to consider what became the Health and Social Care Act 2012. It took me quite a long time to recover from it; it was one of the longest-lasting Committees ever to sit in this place. I say that for the benefit of new hon. Members—you have had it very easy. That Committee took a long time and, Sir David, as you might remember, there was quite a long pause—as the Government called it—and then we all had to come back. It seemed to go on for ever.
This has been a very good Bill Committee. I know that the hon. Member for Livingston is a little disappointed that some of the amendments have not been accepted, but I think it is fair to say that there has been more agreement than there has been disagreement, which is certainly to be welcomed.
I thank all the Clerks and staff, and the staff of a number of Departments who have helped me prepare for my contributions. I also thank my hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Planning, a fellow Minister but at the Department for Communities and Local Government. It is always good to work with him. A feature of this Government—we were laughing privately about this, something that people perhaps do not understand—is that Ministers all like each other, get on terribly well and are genuinely friends. We do not need to go into more detail, because there are others I need to thank.
I thank the Doorkeepers. They have been lucky, because we have not had too many Divisions. They have kept us safe and we are grateful for them.
Finally, I thank all hon. Members, including the Whips—rightly, because people do not realise the job that the Whips do, which is to keep things moving smoothly. I pay tribute to my PPS, who has been struck down by a vile lurgy. He sat here for almost the entire day, only to discover that he was not required to vote, so he has gone home to his bed, properly so. I also thank my hon. Friend the Member for Charnwood, who I think is engaging in his first PPS duties. We look forward to many more such instances—a gentle hint to the Whip.
The Committee has been enjoyable and, although I do not know whether it is a first, we have actually finished early. We cannot all go home, but we can certainly all go and have a cup of tea. Thank you, Sir David, it has been a pleasure. We look forward to Report stage and to the many further debates on the Bill as it passes through the House.
The Chair
Ms Buck and I have greatly enjoyed the Committee. Members have at all times been courteous and our debates have been conducted with great humour. I thank colleagues for the way in which they have co-operated with the Chair at all times.
I thank the Doorkeepers and the Hansard writers for their support for our work, but most of all I wish to thank our Clerks, without whom the Committee would not have functioned. Their wise counsels have prevailed at all times.
Bill, as amended, to be reported.
Enterprise Bill [ Lords ] (Seventh sitting)
(8 years, 9 months ago)
Public Bill CommitteesRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 7 / Noes: 10 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 7 / Noes: 10 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 7 / Noes: 10 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 7 / Noes: 10 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Chair
Welcome back for the penultimate sitting of the Committee.
Clause 35
Restriction on public sector exit payments
Amendment proposed (23 February): 103, in clause 35, page 50, line 38, at end insert—
“( ) Regulations shall make provision to require prescribed public sector authorities to consider, prior to making a public sector exit payment—
(a) whether the payment being paid is appropriate; and
(b) whether the payment would provide value for money.” .—(Kevin Brennan.)
This amendment would ensure that when considering staff for exits value for money is considered.
Question again proposed, That the amendment be made.
The Minister for Small Business, Industry and Enterprise (Anna Soubry)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship again, Ms Buck. I think that we had come to the point in the debate on the amendment where all that was left was for me to respond. The amendment is unnecessary because it is already a fundamental duty for the public sector to ensure that exit payments are value for money and are made in the most appropriate manner. The cap on and the additional scrutiny of such payments will encourage employers to act with discipline and proportionality when considering public sector exits and will help to ensure that good management practices are embedded in any decision. It is on that basis that I ask hon. Members to vote against the amendment if it is put to a vote.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
Ms Buck, as this will be your last opportunity to chair this Committee in your first venture into chairmanship, may I say how greatly we have enjoyed your chairmanship of the Committee here, down by the river? I know you have just got your Bruce Springsteen tickets so I thought I would mention that.
Kevin Brennan
Although we have also hugely enjoyed Sir David’s chairmanship, as Sinead O’Connor once sang, “Nothing compares to you”. [Interruption.] I am showing my age, as the Minister quite rightly says.
Amendment 103 is a probing amendment that makes an important point about value for money. As I said on Tuesday, we are not convinced that the clause will ultimately bring value for money in the public sector or, indeed, among some workers in the private sector. We want to discuss that point, which is coming up next. On that basis, I will not ask my hon. Friends to press the amendment to a vote. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Kevin Brennan
I beg to move amendment 123, in clause 35, page 51, leave out lines 20 to 24 and insert—
‘(10) Nothing in this section applies in relation to payments made by the bodies listed in NS3.”
This amendment would exclude employees of companies listed at NS3 operated by the private sector from the scope of the proposed cap.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss new schedule 3—Bodies excluded from the restrictions on public sector exit payments—
“Payments made by the following bodies are excluded from the restrictions on public sector exit payments—
(a) Sellafield Ltd
(b) Westinghouse Springfields Fuels Ltd
(c) Magnox Ltd
(d) National Nuclear Laboratory
(e) International Nuclear Services
(f) Atomic Weapons Establishment Ltd
(g) Low Level Waste Repository Ltd
(h) Dounreay Site Restoration Ltd
(i) RSRL Winfrith and
(j) RSRL Harwell ”
See amendment 123.
Kevin Brennan
I congratulate Government Members on voting in the way they intended on that occasion.
Amendment 123 would exclude employees of the companies listed in new schedule 3, which are operated by the private sector, from the scope of the cap proposed in clause 35. Employees of Magnox and similar companies across the nuclear estate and elsewhere are employed by companies that operate in the private sector, so why are they being included in and affected by a measure that the Secretary of State told us on Second Reading is designed to hit public sector fat cats? Those employees never imagined for one second—one can understand why—that they were covered by the Conservative party’s manifesto commitment to cap public sector exit payments.
We raised that issue on Second Reading, and I know the Minister has subsequently met with Members of Parliament to discuss it further. Hopefully, by the end of the debate, we will have a solution and those employees will be excluded from the exit payment cap. These companies are in a unique position: they are mostly engaged in managing the safe closure of nuclear facilities, which is obviously a hugely important task for our country.
Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend agree that the recent terrible and tragic explosion at Didcot shows just how difficult and dangerous such decommissioning work is? That was a conventional gas-fired power station being demolished. I am sure the sympathies and thoughts of the whole Committee are with those affected and their families. The terrible tragedy that befell workers there shows what a difficult, dangerous and technical job they are doing. A great deal of specialist expertise is required to do it safely. Of course, the risks of a nuclear decommissioning site are exponentially increased because of the risk of anything escaping out into the wider environment.
Kevin Brennan
My hon. Friend is right. Exclusions have been made for those who serve our country, and I think these workers also serve our country in what they do—which is, as she said, difficult, technical and sometimes dangerous work.
Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)
I commend my hon. Friend for the argument he is making in support of Magnox workers. Those workers include a constituent of mine, who rightly pointed out not only that she was extremely shocked to find herself included in these redundancy terms but that, if we change people’s terms and conditions at this stage, the industry is very much threatened by losing the vital skills we need to do this decommissioning work.
Kevin Brennan
I said earlier in the Committee that Government Whips should be seen but not heard, but of course that convention does not apply to Opposition Whips in Committee, as all Committee members will know. That is particularly useful, as it allows my hon. Friend to raise a constituency issue of such direct importance to what is under discussion. I am sure her constituents will take note of what she is doing in the Committee to defend their interests.
As I said, these companies are in a unique position. They are mostly engaged in managing the safe closure of nuclear facilities, which is a hugely important task that is very difficult to manage. By its nature, it involves working towards a specific end date, at which point the employees will in effect make themselves redundant. They are in a particularly different category. To get someone with the necessary skills to commit to that task when they are in, say, their early or mid-30s, we need to ensure that they know they will be provided for if they successfully complete their task by the time they reach their mid to late 50s, when finding re-employment in a similar role with their skills would be potentially very difficult.
As we have heard, if these companies cannot afford the packages necessary to compensate someone for the loss of their role when their task is completed, the companies will find it extremely difficult to prevent these highly skilled workers, who were mobile in earlier parts of their career, from simply leaving. That, in itself, will ultimately drive up the costs and risks associated with decommissioning and exacerbate an already difficult skills shortage in the industry.
Legislating now, as the Government are doing, to override long-standing arrangements in the nuclear sector where the employees involved have kept their end of the bargain faithfully, is pretty unconscionable in my opinion. How can it be right that workers who have stayed with a company to deliver successfully the safety commissioning of a site see their promised redundancy compensation reneged on by the Government when it is due to be paid?
The Treasury justification for applying the cap to the employees of those companies, as I understand it, is the old chestnut of the Office for National Statistics judging them to be publicly controlled. That technical, statistical designation, however, does not mean that applying the cap to those workers is either fair or necessarily value for money for taxpayers in the long term. It is unfair unilaterally to strike down agreements between companies and their employees. It will drive up overall costs for decommissioning as recruitment and retention in the relevant sectors take a hit. There is also no proof that taxpayers will receive any benefit, as the private operators of the companies often receive higher incentive payments under their contracts as a result.
Unless the Government decide to act on this, and I hope they do, employees in the sector will note that when it comes to pension provision and other issues the Treasury has excluded them from the public sector, but it considers them within scope for the cap in the Bill. Proceeding with imposing the cap on the employees of those companies will store up significant industrial relations issues. One can only guess how they will feel —actually, we do not have to guess, because we know from the evidence that we have received, which I will come on to in a moment. How will they feel when they discover that the Secretary of State considers them to be fat cats requiring legislation to limit their payments, even though they are employed by the private sector, while the Government absolutely reject any limit on anyone working in the banking sector? Why is a privatised banker not given the fat-cat treatment by the Secretary of State, but nuclear decommissioning workers are? Yet again it seems to be up with the bankers and down with the workers with this Government. What a shocking value-free zone the policy is, if the Government stick to it and do not accept that they have got it wrong and should support our amendment.
We have received strong representations from Magnox workers and from the trade unions that have represented them so ably. Other companies in the sector are covered and they are referred to in new schedule 3. For the record and for the sake of inclusivity in my remarks I will name those included in the new schedule: Sellafield Ltd, Westinghouse Springfields Fuels Ltd, Magnox Ltd, National Nuclear Laboratory, International Nuclear Services, Atomic Weapons Establishment Ltd, Low Level Waste Repository Ltd, Dounreay Site Restoration Ltd, RSRL Winfrith and RSRL Harwell. Note that none of those companies is called Fat Cats Ltd.
Mary Creagh
My hon. Friend made a good point earlier comparing the workers and the bankers. Does he agree that the list he has just read out is an interesting hangover from the privatisation of the electricity grid and the national nuclear authority? Some risks can only be borne by Government. One of those risks is the premature exit of a skilled, competent workforce equipped to deal with nuclear materials and their safe disposal. There are strong arguments for the Government to continue to bear the redundancy risk, or to allow the workers to be classified—I am not sure whether they are classified as being state or private sector workers, but the point is, when we privatise things, some risks only Government can bear, and that is what the amendment is all about.
Kevin Brennan
My hon. Friend is right. I am sure that the Minister will confirm that that is why those companies fall in scope, but that does not stop the Government from deciding actively to exclude them from scope. As I said earlier, they are radiant with the lawful power to do that; we are not, but they can do it. I encourage the Minister to commit to doing so in her response.
The Committee has formally received dozens of letters from Magnox workers. I have some here and I am sure hon. Members have read them. I congratulate the workers on the quality of representations they have made to the Committee as well as the trade unions. Kevin Coyne of Unite, whom I met, has co-ordinated joint union meetings to campaign on the issue. We are reaching the last stages of the Committee so there is not time to read all of the letters out, but they have been entered formally as evidence to the Committee, so they are available for people to read.
Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
I thought the hon. Member for Cardiff West set out the logic behind the amendment very well and I agree with all the comments he made. As he said, we have all received representations on this issue; in fact, there was the feel of a 38 Degrees campaign at one point, but that showed the strength of feeling. These are workers who are getting hurt by the law of unintended consequences again.
As has been said, it is middle-income workers—long-serving workers—who are encouraged to stay on site, in a privatised company, to remain there and do this very important work of decommissioning, which obviously has an end date that signifies the end of their work. So it is only right that they should be able to pick up the pension accrual that they expected to get.
If we look back in history, we see that this is about Government striking a commercial deal to privatise a company. The company knows the workload that it is going to get, so it knows its commercial return. Years down the line, these workers should not be the victim of a Government change in policy, when, in fact, the company has managed to pick up the profit it was due over the years. That is very important.
These workers have not had a say in this process. They probably did not want to be privatised in the first place and they should not have their terms and conditions changed further down the line. I certainly support the amendment.
Anna Soubry
We need to remind ourselves, of course, that the Government have been clear that ending six-figure payments should apply to all public sector organisations, with few exceptions. Of course, it is the taxpayer who picks up the cost of exit payments and employees who have specialist skills should not automatically be exempt.
I was a little troubled by the contribution from the hon. Member for Wakefield, and not because I disagreed with her for one moment about the dreadful accident the day before yesterday at Didcot and the subsequent fatalities. It is undoubtedly the case that many people do dangerous jobs. I am reminded, of course, of all those who work in the fire and rescue service; we often forget that the fire brigades provide the rescue service as well. They do incredibly dangerous work, not only when they are fighting fires but when they are rescuing people. Although it is extremely rare, if it ever happens, that we make firefighters redundant, nevertheless they are also included in this new provision. I do not think that the fact that someone does a dangerous job should in some way exempt them.
The list of exempt organisations will be set out in the regulations, not in the Bill itself, and of course they will need the approval of both Houses of Parliament. The guidance accompanying the regulations will set down the criteria that Ministers, or those who have been delegated the responsibility, must consider in decisions to relax the cap. In other words, there are exemptions that can be made, but they will be determined in a list that, as I say, will require the approval of both Houses.
Regulations relaxing the cap can apply to individual cases and to groups of individuals, to cater for cases where Ministers may wish to consider organisational cases for relaxing the cap. So there is already a mechanism in place for organisations to be considered for exemption. Therefore, the amendment is unnecessary.
The regulations implementing the cap will be in force from October 2016 at the very earliest. However, as I think I have explained—it has certainly been explained in correspondence, but now I will make it very clear again—Magnox employees who are in the current redundancy programme and due to exit by September 2016 will not—repeat, will not—be caught by the cap, and the cap will not affect the core terms of the pension scheme available to Nuclear Decommissioning Authority staff, in other words Magnox employees, such as the retirement age or the basis on which their pensions accrual rate is set.
The hon. Member for Cardiff West used a particular example, of course, from somebody who had quite properly written in, which is absolutely the right thing to do. In relation to that point, I will say that I have indeed had meetings with MPs. I have not met the unions, not because I have any difficulty in meeting unions, but only because—unfortunately—my diary is pretty hectic.
However, I particularly made the point when I met the MPs, and I have made it clear to the unions by way of a letter, that people should please use their MPs to make full representations to me. As we all know, in this place Members can lobby a Minister in a corridor, or anywhere we bump into each other. That is the quickest and easiest way, but it is not a slight on the unions. I have specifically said to Members of Parliament, “Get back to them, and tell them about our meeting. Use your good self to communicate through.”
Anna Soubry
In just a moment. I have drifted off, and I want to come back to my point on Magnox pensions. These are employer-funded costs that form part of the exit payment, and the cap does not affect the core terms of the pensions. That is important, and everyone is beholden to ensure that employees get the facts, not the myths or the spin. The cap does not affect the core terms of their pensions, such as accrual rates and normal pension age. I hope that might be of some assistance.
Kevin Brennan
I think my hon. Friend the Member for Sefton Central wanted to come in on a slightly earlier point. Has that point about myths been made in the representations that the Committee has received? I do not think that is the point we are trying to make with the amendment but, if the Minister thinks those myths are being pushed around, where are they coming from?
Anna Soubry
I am just answering the points that have been made.
I was asked why the banks are not included. There is a good reason for that. During the financial crisis, the then Government ensured that a number of banks were in temporary partial public ownership, and we have already started the process of returning the banks wholly—not partly, but wholly—to private ownership. That is the only reason why they are exempt.
The other important thing to remember—I am particularly explaining this for the Magnox workers—is that it is not the Government who deem that they are working in the public sector; it is the Office for National Statistics. As we debated the other day, the ONS is an independent organisation. It is not for the Government to beat up on the ONS, which decides and determines what is in and what is out of the public sector. By definition, that is the ONS’s job.
Mary Creagh
I apologise for the earlier interruption. I have a new app, and I thought I had it on mute, but for some reason it started talking. I recommend it to the Committee, because it is good for beating the London traffic.
The Minister has just said that partially owned state banks are exempt from the cap at the moment. Does that mean that their workers can receive payoffs of more than £100,000 before they are fully privatised? That is at least the next year or year and a half, given our earlier discussions on the current state of the banking share market.
Anna Soubry
That is my understanding, because they are in the process of being wholly put back into the private sector. If I am wrong, I am sure I will be corrected. And if I am not corrected in time, I will be more than happy to write to the hon. Lady.
Mary Creagh
I am grateful to the Minister for clarifying that point. Does that mean that those banks that are in partial public ownership publish, as the Green Investment Bank currently does, the pay and benefits of all their top executives and their chairperson? We had that debate in relation to the Green Investment Bank, and I seek clarification on the same best practice for financial reporting on executive pay and performance. If the Minister cannot provide an answer now, I would be grateful if she wrote to me on that point.
Anna Soubry
I really do not know. The danger is that we are drifting off. Again, I am more than happy to ask my officials to write to the hon. Lady on that point. [Interruption.] Actually, the publication of what people earn, and so on, is not relevant to this clause.
I know that Opposition Members want to concentrate on the issue of the Magnox workers because, understandably, they have written in large numbers to hon. Members. As I have explained, we have been clear about what to do, but in any event we will list in regulation those employees who are not exempt. I also stress the point that the cap of £95,000 is on exit payments. We are not getting rid of all exit payments for Magnox workers, but those who would receive above £95,000 will be capped.
Kevin Brennan
The Minister tells us that secondary legislation will list the organisations and people who will be exempted from the cap. As we know, the Government have decided to exempt certain people in the public sector from the cap. Will any or all of the bodies listed in new schedule 3 be included in the list in secondary legislation?
Anna Soubry
I do not think I can give assurances on that. If I am wrong, I will get back to the hon. Gentleman. Forgive me, Ms Buck, I am reading a note that I do not understand. It refers to the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy), although I did not think she was here. Perhaps the hon. Member for Wakefield has been mistaken for the hon. Member for Walthamstow.
Anna Soubry
Yes, I was going to say that. I nearly said she is also much younger, but that would be exceedingly rude. Actually, it is not true. In any event, the hon. Lady looks the same age.
Anna Soubry
Well off it. But I do not like falling out with people. Unless anyone wants to intervene, that is all I have to say on this matter.
Bill Esterson
I want to make a few remarks as the Minister did not allow me to intervene earlier. My hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield made a point about consistency and the treatment of workers, whether they are senior bank executives or Magnox workers. Reasonable people might expect similar and decent treatment from the Government, whether they work in a bank, in decommissioning in the nuclear industry, or anywhere else. That is the grave concern about some of what we have heard and about the clauses tabled by the Government, which we want to amend. I tried to intervene on the Minister’s comments on trade unions. I do not doubt her desire to engage with trade unions or her understanding of the importance of talking to the trade unions.
The Minister is right that constituency MPs have a crucial role in discussing with Ministers the impact of legislation on their constituents. Workers in the nuclear industry who are extremely worried, with good reason, about the proposals in the Bill are rightly being represented by their Members of Parliament and by members of the Committee. Indeed, representations were made on Second Reading and will be made on Report in two weeks’ time. The Minister made comments about the pressures on her diary, but I gently say to her that partnership between Government, business and the workforce, especially through its trade union representation, is a hallmark of successful economies.
As success comes in large part from the relationship between the Government and the trade unions, in order to do the Magnox workers justice, the Minister should have made it a priority to meet their trade union before we got to this point in Committee. It is a great pity that she did not.
Kevin Brennan
I thought the Minister’s response was disappointing, given the weight of the evidence submitted to the Committee and the strength of feeling among hon. Members and their constituents. The workers have made their plans and taken decisions on the basis of guarantees and promises given by Government. As far as we can surmise from the limited information that the Minister is prepared to provide about the Government’s intentions, it now appears that the Government are going to take action that will affect them.
To listen to the Minister, one might think that the workers would not be affected at all. She seemed to be dealing with all sorts of shibboleths that were nothing to do with what is in the new schedule, rather than telling us directly whether the workers’ pensions and prospects would be affected by the exit payment cap. The Minister rehearsed arguments about all sorts of scares, which may have been put about by mythical people she was not prepared to name, but going by the evidence submitted to us, the workers in question will be affected—and to quite a large extent.
We represented those arguments and made the case on the workers’ behalf, and quoted, albeit selectively, from a heavy weight of evidence that they submitted to us about their circumstances. All we got from the Minister was a response to issues that had not been raised in the workers’ letters to us and a vague reference to secondary legislation at some later date that will name some as yet unknown entities that may be excluded from the cap.
I am sorry, but I was brought up not to buy a pig in a poke, and if I were the Magnox workers I would not fall for that for a second. It is the oldest trick in the book for Ministers to say “We might do something at a later date, but let something through in the meantime.” That is not why we are here. We are here to get on the record the Government’s position, and whether they accept the arguments about Magnox and other workers that we have set out in the new schedule. We want to know whether they are prepared to exclude those workers, through secondary legislation, from the exit payment cap. At the very least, will they give a strong indication that that is how they are minded to act?
All we got from the Minister was an empty sheet of paper, with nothing written on it. I am afraid that is not good enough for the constituents who have written to us and who are directly affected.
Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) (Lab)
My hon. Friend is making an important point. I want to express my concerns about the issue. It speaks to what seems to be a wider Government issue on pensions. We had a debate yesterday about women born in the 1950s who have been significantly affected by the Government’s switching the goal posts. The Government are pulling the rug out from under people. People have paid into the system and saved all their lives for their pension, only to find that the Government have changed the rules at the last minute. That suggests a profound disrespect for those people, but also for the principle of saving and doing the right thing. The Government profess to support those people, but they are doing the opposite.
Kevin Brennan
Indeed. Those people are the definition of strivers; they are hard-working—the beating heart of the working people of this country. It shows in their letters to us. Neither are they swivel-eyed lefty loonies or anything of that kind. Their letters reveal that they are ordinary working people. Often they live in the constituencies of Conservative Members. The one I quoted earlier lives in Maldon, the constituency of the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, and there are many others in constituencies represented by Members from both sides of the House and all parts of the United Kingdom.
Mary Creagh
I do not know how many of those workers cast votes for the Conservatives in the election, but had they been apprised of the facts before the election obviously they might have chosen to vote differently in some of the marginal seats mentioned by my hon. Friend. Also, one of the letters that I have received mentions that the impact assessment says that this course of action will save in the low hundreds of millions of pounds over this Parliament. The woman who wrote the letter contrasts that with the £130 million of back tax that has been paid by Google, which is under the spotlight again, given the news that the French Government are asking for £1.3 billion of back taxes from that company.
Alan Brown
The hon. Gentleman spoke about the Minister’s disappointing response. Does he agree with me that one aspect of that response was that firefighters would be affected by the provision on exit payments? Is that not an illustration of what is wrong with this whole premise? They are anything but fat cats.
Kevin Brennan
It is. In fairness to the Minister, I do not think that she was saying that they were, but that is the language that the Secretary of State has used and that is the headline that they seek with this kind of policy making by headline. They put things in the Bill that are meant to get them a headline in the Daily Mail and The Sun. That is what it is all about, fundamentally. It is all about political positioning: “We are against these public sector fat cats.” But the reality, when we lift the stone and look underneath that proposition, is that some pretty ugly stuff is wriggling around underneath the stone. There is an example of that in the debate that we are having today. Hard-working people are being betrayed by their Government. They would have made very different assumptions, as my hon. Friends have pointed out, about what this policy meant when they read their Daily Mail and read the headline and even when they read the Conservative party manifesto, because—
Anna Soubry
Does the hon. Gentleman accept that some Magnox workers apparently can receive up to half a million pounds? Is he saying that there should be no cap at all on any of the exit payments for Magnox workers? We want to be clear.
Kevin Brennan
The Minister is yet again quoting from a document that none of us has seen. She comes up with these little flights of inspiration to us that the rest of us have not read. I have been quoting from the evidence that has been submitted to the Committee. The Government could put in their explanatory notes to the Bill the fact that they are going after Magnox because of the fat cats that the Minister is saying—
Kevin Brennan
Well, the Secretary of State used the term, and the Secretary of State is the Minister’s senior and I presume she agrees with what he says. She is constitutionally obliged to, actually, when she is talking on behalf of the Department.
Mary Creagh
Let me attempt to help the Committee. I am sure that the Minister meant, when she referred to payments of up to half a million pounds, that some of those will be making up the pension requirements. Let us say that somebody is made redundant at 50. Their contract states that they can have their pension made up as if they had worked until the state retirement age, which is 65. We are talking about 13 years of pension fund payments on a salary of, I think, £30,000 a year. Thirteen years of payment would amount to £156,000. That is not going into that person’s pocket; it is going into their pension fund, and they have planned for that in order to help to pay their mortgage and to help them save towards their retirement.
Kevin Brennan
Indeed. All their life decisions were taken on the basis that they had a good pension fund that they were paying into and that they could expect, under the terms and conditions, to receive. That was contractually promised and, at the time of privatisation, commitments were made and guarantees were given that these people going into the private sector would not be affected in the way they are now being affected. The Government are hiding behind the veil of the argument that the ONS has classed them as public sector. That is irrelevant because the Government have the authority to exclude them if they accept the argument put forward by the Magnox workers.
I know that the Minister has expressed some sympathy—that is why I was quite surprised at her last intervention—privately in relation to Magnox workers. [Interruption.] That has been reported to me. I should explain. I will put it on the record, then. My hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) told me that in the meeting that he and other Members from across the House had with her that she expressed some sympathy with the case that the workers were putting forward. Nevertheless, she has come to the Committee with nothing for them today and no indication that on Report the Government will come back with something better than they have produced today, which is the square root of very little, to put it politely.
Kevin Brennan
I beg to move amendment 126, in schedule 4, page 68, line 6, after “reduction),” insert
“in (7) replace “is entitled to, and must take immediate payment of” with “may elect to receive immediate payment of” and”.
The amendment would give an individual the choice to take a pension immediately or delay taking it under the Local Government Pensions Scheme on being made redundant or because of business efficiency if under the exit payment cap such a payment would need to be actuarially reduced.
This is an important matter, but I hope we can dispose of it fairly quickly, obviously depending on hon. Members’ views. At the moment, local government pension scheme regulations state that, where an individual is made redundant at the age of 55 or over, they must take their pension. The pension that is payable to a member in that position is paid at the full rate and is not reduced to take into account that it will be paid for longer than if they had retired at a later age.
There may be a cost to the employer of putting the full pension into payment. Once the cap is introduced, if there is a cost to the employer of providing that unreduced pension and, taken together with the other exit payments, the cost would exceed £95,000, the Bill states that the pension should be paid at a reduced rate to ensure that the total cost does not go above the level of the cap. However, as drafted, the local government pension scheme regulations will still require that person to take their pension at the point of redundancy, and it will be a reduced pension for the remainder of their life, not just for the period until retirement.
The amendment proposes that members in that situation would have the choice of whether to take their pension. If, for example, a member is made redundant at the age of 55, they could either choose to take their pension at that point, accepting that it will be paid at a reduced rate for the rest of their life, or choose to delay taking their pension so that it can be put into payment at a later time on an unreduced basis. That seems an eminently sensible and reasonable proposition, and it is very much in line with what the Government say they want to do in extending choice to people in relation to their pension. There would not be a cost to the pension fund. The element of choice is crucial. The Minister believes in choice and we support that. A worker’s decision on when to access their pension really is a pretty basic right and choice. Will she extend that choice to these workers by agreeing to amendment 126?
Anna Soubry
Schedule 4 amends the local government pension scheme to allow for the payment of a reduced pension when the pension top-up by the employer required for an unreduced pension is to be taken early and would exceed £95,000. The provision is required to ensure that the scheme does not conflict with the requirements of the cap.
The amendment would allow for a member, instead of taking a reduced pension earlier, to opt to defer payment of their pension and take an unreduced pension at normal pension age. However, it is unclear how the amendment would be advantageous to the member, as they would be forfeiting up to £95,000 of top-up by their employer to their pension pot.
In any event, the amendments in schedule 4 make the minimum of changes for the cap to be effective. Any further amendments to the local government scheme should be made after consultation with members in the normal manner. For the sake of completeness, I want to say that the cap does not affect any pension already accrued or paid for by members’ contributions, even when taken out. That is why I resist the amendment.
Kevin Brennan
Obviously, I am disappointed by that reply. I had hoped that the Minister would say, “We’ll give it some more thought.” Whether she judges that it would be to the worker’s advantage or not is, quite frankly, irrelevant. It is about whether the worker, with appropriate financial advice, thinks it is the right choice for them. It is not for the Minister to decide whether it is the right choice for them. That is a very different definition of choice from the one we thought the Government meant when they were talking about choice regarding pensions.
I accept what the Minister said but I hope that she will think a bit more about it because this is not an unreasonable proposition, nor one that should affect any financial calculations that the Government might be concerned about in this part of the Bill. On that basis, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Schedule 4 agreed to.
New Clause 1
Power of Welsh Ministers to apply regulators’ principles and code of practice
‘In section 24 of the Legislative and Regulatory Reform Act 2006 (application of regulators’ principles and code of practice to functions specified by order)—
(a) for paragraph (c) of subsection (3) (Wales: limit on power of Minister of the Crown to specify functions) substitute—
“(c) a Welsh regulatory function.”;
(b) in subsection (4) (power of Welsh Ministers to specify functions) for “regulatory functions exercisable only in or as regards Wales” substitute “Welsh regulatory functions”;
(c) in subsection (10) (definitions) at the appropriate place insert—
““Welsh regulatory function” means a regulatory function, so far as exercisable in relation to Wales, if or to the extent that the function relates to matters—
(a) within the legislative competence of the National Assembly for Wales (see section 108 of the Government of Wales Act 2006), or
(b) in respect of which functions are exercisable by the Welsh Ministers.”.”’—(Anna Soubry.)
This new Clause gives power to the Welsh Ministers (instead of a Minister of the Crown) to make orders applying the regulators’ principles and code of practice in relation to functions relating to matters within the legislative competence of the National Assembly for Wales, or in respect of which functions are exercisable by the Welsh Ministers.
Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.
New Clause 2
Devolved Welsh matters
‘(1) The Regulatory Enforcement and Sanctions Act 2008 is amended as follows.
(2) In each of the following provisions, for “Welsh ministerial” substitute “devolved Welsh”—
(a) in section 4 (meaning of “relevant function”), subsections (6) and (8)(b);
(b) in section 6 (guidance to local authorities), subsections (1) and (1A);
(c) in section 10 (advice to Welsh Ministers), subsection (1)(a);
(d) in section 12 (relationship between Secretary of State and other regulators), subsection (3);
(e) in section 16 (guidance or directions by Welsh Ministers), subsection (1);
(f) in section 36 (power to make orders providing for civil sanctions), subsection (2);
(g) in section 59 (consultation and consent for civil sanctions orders: Wales), subsection (2);
(h) in section 73 (functions to which duty not to impose or maintain unnecessary regulatory burdens applies), subsections (3)(c), (4)(c) and (5).
(3) In section 73 (functions to which section 72 applies), in subsections (3)(c) and (4)(c), for “in Wales” substitute “in relation to Wales”.
(4) In section 74 (general interpretation)—
(a) omit the definition of “Welsh ministerial matter”;
(b) before the definition of “Minister of the Crown” insert—
““devolved Welsh matter” means —
(a) a matter within the legislative competence of the National Assembly for Wales (see section 108 of the Government of Wales Act 2006), or
(b) a matter in relation to Wales in respect of which functions are exercisable by the Welsh Ministers,
and in this definition “Wales” has the same meaning as in the
Government of Wales Act 2006;”.”’—(Anna Soubry.)
See the explanatory statements for amendments 1 and 2.
Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.
New Clause 3
Apprenticeships: information sharing
(1) After Part 1 of the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009 (apprenticeships, study and training) insert—
“Part 1A
Apprenticeships: information sharing
England
‘40A Sharing of information by HMRC and the Secretary of State
(1) HMRC may disclose information held by them to the Secretary of State for the purpose of the Secretary of State’s functions in relation to English statutory apprenticeships.
(2) The Secretary of State may disclose information to HMRC—
(a) for the purpose of requesting HMRC to disclose information under subsection (1), or
(b) for another purpose connected with the Secretary of State’s functions in relation to English statutory apprenticeships.
(3) In this section “English statutory apprenticeships” means—
(a) approved English apprenticeships within the meaning given in section A1;
(b) apprenticeships undertaken under apprenticeship agreements within the meaning given in section 32 that were entered into in connection with recognised English frameworks;
(c) apprenticeships in relation to which alternative English completion arrangements apply under section 1(5);
(d) apprenticeships undertaken under arrangements made in relation to England under section 2 of the Employment and Training Act 1973 that are identified by the person making them as arrangements for the provision of apprenticeships.
Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland
40B Sharing of information by HMRC and devolved authorities
(1) HMRC may disclose information held by them—
(a) to a Welsh authority for the purpose of the authority’s functions in relation to Welsh apprenticeships;
(b) to a Scottish authority for the purpose of the authority’s functions in relation to Scottish apprenticeships;
(c) to a Northern Irish authority for the purpose of the authority’s functions in relation to Northern Irish apprenticeships.
(2) An authority mentioned in paragraph (a), (b) or (c) of subsection (1) may disclose information to HMRC—
(a) for the purpose of requesting HMRC to disclose information to the authority under subsection (1), or
(b) for another purpose connected with the authority’s functions mentioned in subsection (1).
(3) In this section—
“Northern Irish apprenticeships” means apprenticeships undertaken under arrangements made under section 1 of the Employment and Training Act (Northern Ireland) 1950 that are identified by the person making them as arrangements for the provision of apprenticeships;
“Northern Irish authority” means—
(a) a Northern Ireland department, and
(b) any body or other person that is prescribed, or of a prescribed description;
“Scottish apprenticeships” means apprenticeships undertaken under arrangements made—
(a) in relation to Scotland, under section 2 of the Employment and Training Act 1973, or
(b) under section 2(3) of the Enterprise and New Towns (Scotland) Act 1990, that are identified by the person making them as arrangements for the provision of apprenticeships;
“Scottish authority” means—
(a) the Scottish Ministers, and
(b) any body or other person that is prescribed, or of a prescribed description;
“Welsh apprenticeships” means—
(a) apprenticeships undertaken under apprenticeship agreements within the meaning given in section 32 that were entered into in connection with recognised Welsh frameworks;
(b) apprenticeships in relation to which alternative Welsh completion arrangements apply under section 2(5);
(c) apprenticeships undertaken under arrangements made in relation to Wales under—
“Welsh authority” means—
(a) the Welsh Ministers, and
(b) any body or other person that is prescribed, or of a prescribed description.
(4) In subsection (3)—
(a) the reference to a Northern Ireland department includes a reference to a person providing services to a Northern Ireland department;
(b) the reference to the Scottish Ministers includes a reference to a person providing services to the Scottish Ministers;
(c) the reference to the Welsh Ministers includes a reference to a person providing services to the Welsh Ministers.
(5) Regulations under this section may amend the definition in subsection (3) of—
(a) “Northern Irish apprenticeships”,
(b) “Scottish apprenticeships”, or
(c) “Welsh apprenticeships”.
General
40C Wrongful disclosure
(1) Information disclosed by HMRC under section 40A(1) or 40B(1) may not be disclosed by the recipient of the information to any other person without the consent of HMRC (except so far as permitted by section 40A(2) or 40B(2)).
(2) If a person discloses, in contravention of subsection (1), any revenue and customs information relating to a person whose identity—
(a) is specified in the disclosure, or
(b) can be deduced from it,
section 19 of the Commissioners for Revenue and Customs Act 2005 (wrongful disclosure) applies in relation to that disclosure as it applies in relation to a disclosure of such information in contravention of section 20(9) of that Act.
40D Interpretation
(1) In this Part—
“HMRC” means the Commissioners for Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs;
“revenue and customs information relating to a person” has the same meaning as in section 19 of the Commissioners for Revenue and Customs Act 2005 (see section 19(2) of that Act).
(2) In this Part—
(a) references to HMRC include references to a person providing services to HMRC;
(b) references to the Secretary of State include references to a person providing services to the Secretary of State.
(3) Nothing in this Part affects any power to disclose information that exists apart from this Part.”.
(2) In section 262(6) of that Act (orders and regulations subject to affirmative procedure) after paragraph (aa) insert—
“(aaa) regulations under section 40B;”.
(3) In section 268 of that Act (extent)—
(a) in subsection (2) (provisions extending to Scotland) for “Sections 40,” substitute “Section 40, Part 1A, sections”, and
(b) in subsection (3) (provisions extending to Northern Ireland) for “Sections”, in the first place, substitute “Part 1A, sections”.”’—(Anna Soubry.)
This new Clause inserts a new Part into the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009 providing for the sharing of information between HMRC and the Secretary of State, and between HMRC and certain devolved authorities, for purposes connected with apprenticeships.
Brought up, and read the First time.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Government new clause 4—Apprenticeship Funding.
Government amendment 25.
Anna Soubry
We are introducing the apprenticeship levy and the step change in apprenticeship numbers and quality to deliver on the commitment of 3 million apprenticeship starts by 2020. We have set ourselves a high target and I am confident that we will achieve it especially when business fully appreciates—and I think it does—the huge importance of apprenticeships. When we ratchet up this work, everybody will play their part in making sure that we offer wonderful opportunities for earning and learning. The Government will legislate for powers to raise and collect the levy across the United Kingdom through the Finance Bill 2016, with the levy due to go live in April 2017.
For employers to get out at least what they put in, we need to know what they have put in in the first place. We want to do this in a way that minimises the administrative burden on businesses. Data sharing between HMRC and the Secretary of State for BIS is the most effective and most efficient way to do this. The legislation will enable information held by the Treasury on the employer’s levy to be shared, so that each employer’s entitlement to apprenticeship funding can broadly match levy payments made by employers.
Employers entitled to levy funds will be able to access the new digital apprenticeship service from April 2017, and over time the service will be expanded to cover all employers who take on apprentices. Each employer that has paid the levy will be able to see how much they have paid and therefore how much they have to spend in their levy account. That will help us to give employers a simple-to-use apprenticeship service that is clearly linked to their levy payments. We will publish details in due course about arrangements for employers not paying the levy.
Devolved Administrations will also have access to similar information to operate their own apprenticeship schemes. The legislation also creates a new funding power that will enable us to make levy-funded payments to employers across the full range of apprenticeships in England.
Kevin Brennan
We debated this matter extensively earlier in the Bill and we have not tabled amendments in this group, so I will make my remarks in relation to the next group in which we have tabled amendments. My remarks will be brief because we have debated this quite extensively and we made our positon clear. However, we want to hear an explanation of the Government amendments.
Question put and agreed to.
New clause 3 read a Second time, and added to the Bill.
New Clause 4
Apprenticeship funding
In section 100(1A) of the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009 (provision of financial resources in connection with approved English apprenticeships)—
(a) for “approved English apprenticeships”, in both places, substitute “English statutory apprenticeships”, and
(b) after subsection (4) insert—
“(5) In this section “English statutory apprenticeship” has the same meaning as in section 40A (see subsection (3) of that section).”” .—(Anna Soubry.)
This new Clause expands the Secretary of State’s funding powers in relation to English apprenticeships.
Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill
New Clause 5
Market rent only option: rent assessments etc
In section 43 of the Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Act 2015 (pubs code: market rent only option), in subsection (6)(b), after “in lieu of rent” insert “(whether or not it results in a proposal that the rent, or amount of money payable, should increase)”.”—(Anna Soubry.)
This new Clause is intended to replace Clause 33, inserted by opposition amendment in the Lords. The changes are intended to achieve what the Government understands is the intended effect of the Lords amendment, namely to ensure that the Pubs Code will require pub-owning businesses to offer tied pub tenants a market rent only option in connection with a rent assessment (including a rent assessment required at a scheduled rent review) whether the rent proposed is an increase, a decrease or is unchanged.
Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.
New Clause 6
Reports on avoidance
In Part 4 of the Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Act 2015 (the Pubs Code Adjudicator and the Pubs Code), after section 71 insert—
“71A Reports on avoidance
(1) The Adjudicator must report to the Secretary of State on cases of pub-owning businesses engaging in business practices which are, in the Adjudicator’s opinion, unfair business practices.
(2) A report under subsection (1) must include recommendations as to—
(a) actions to be taken to prevent pub-owning businesses from engaging in the business practices reported on, and
(b) how to provide redress for tied pub tenants affected by those practices.
(3) The Secretary of State must issue a statement within three months of receiving a report under subsection (1) setting out—
(a) action which the Secretary of State intends to take to protect tied pub tenants affected by the business practices reported on, or
(b) if the Secretary of State does not intend to take such action, the reasoning for that decision.
(4) In this section “unfair business practice” means a business practice which—
(a) is engaged in by a pub-owning business at any time after the passing of this Act in order to avoid, to the detriment of tied pub tenants, the operation of provision made by or under this Part, and
(b) is unfair.””—(Anna Soubry.)
This new Clause is intended to replace Clause 34, inserted by opposition amendment in the Lords. The changes are intended to clarify the effect of the Lords amendment. Instead of containing freestanding provision, the new clause inserts provision into Part 4 of the Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Act 2015. There are small changes to the detail of the drafting, principally to clarify that it applies to all regulations made under Part 4 of the 2015 Act and that the Adjudicator can report on business practices engaged in after royal assent of that Act.
Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.
New Clause 22
The Institute for Apprenticeships
“Schedule (The Institute for Apprenticeships) establishes the Institute for Apprenticeships and makes provision about its functions.”—(Anna Soubry.)
This new Clause introduces NS2.
Brought up, and read the First time.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Government new clause 23—The Institute for Apprenticeships: transitional provision.
Government new schedule 2—The Institute for Apprenticeships—
“The Institute for Apprenticeships
1 The Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009 is amended as follows.
2 In Part 1 (apprenticeships, study and training) before Chapter A1 insert—
Chapter ZA1
The Institute for Apprenticeships
Establishment
ZA1 The Institute for Apprenticeships
‘(1) A body corporate known as the Institute for Apprenticeships is established.
(2) In this Act that body is referred to as “the IfA”.
(3) Schedule A1 makes further provision about the IfA.
General duties and functions
ZA2 General duties
‘(1) So far as relevant, and subject to any notice given by the Secretary of State under subsection (2), in performing its functions the IfA must have regard to—
(a) the reasonable requirements of industry, commerce, finance, the professions and other employers regarding education and training within the IfA’s remit;
(b) the reasonable requirements of persons who may wish to undertake education and training within the IfA’s remit;
(c) the need to ensure that education and training within the IfA’s remit is of an appropriate quality;
(d) theneed to ensure that education and training within the IfA’s remit represents good value in relation to financial resources provided out of public funds;
(e) any information provided to it by any person designated by the Secretary of State for the purposes of this paragraph.
(2) The Secretary of State may give a notice in writing to the IfA setting out other matters to which the IfA must have regard when performing its functions.
(3) The Secretary of State may not give a notice under subsection (2) more than once in any financial year (within the meaning given by section ZA6(6)), except as provided by subsection (4).
(4) Where in a financial year—
(a) a notice is given under subsection (2), and
(b) after the giving of the notice a new Parliament meets for the first time,
the Secretary of State may give one further notice under subsection (2) in that year.
(5) The IfA must perform its functions efficiently and effectively.
(6) For the purposes of this section, education or training is within the IfA’s remit if the education or training is or may be provided in the course of an approved English apprenticeship.
(7) Subsection (1) and any notice under subsection (2) do not apply in relation to functions that are— Where directions or regulations so provide, the directions or regulations—
(a) delegated by directions under section ZA4, or
(b) conferred by regulations under section ZA5,
unless the regulations or directions provide for them to apply in relation to the functions.
(c) may provide for any education or training to which the functions relate to be treated as within the IfA’s remit for the purposes of this section;
(d) may provide for subsection (1) and any notice under subsection (2) to apply in relation to the functions with such modifications as the Secretary of State thinks fit.
(8) The Secretary of State must—
(a) publish in such manner as the Secretary of State thinks fit any notice under subsection (2), and
(b) lay a copy of it before Parliament.
ZA3 Provision of advice and assistance to the Secretary of State etc
‘(1) The IfA may, if requested to do so by the Secretary of State, provide the Secretary of State with advice and assistance in connection with the Secretary of State’s functions relating to apprenticeships in relation to England.
(2) The Secretary of State’s functions mentioned in subsection (1) include those under section 100(1A) or otherwise relating to the funding of apprenticeships in relation to England.
ZA4 Delegation of functions to the IfA by Secretary of State
‘(1) The Secretary of State may by direction delegate to the IfA any of the Secretary of State’s functions relating to apprenticeships in relation to England.
(2) The functions may be delegated—
(a) to any extent that the Secretary of State specifies in the direction, and
(b) subject to any conditions that the Secretary of State specifies in the direction.
(3) The Secretary of State’s functions mentioned in subsection (1) include those under section 100(1A) or otherwise relating to the funding of apprenticeships in relation to England.
ZA5 Conferral of further functions on the IfA by regulations
‘(1) The Secretary of State may by regulations confer on the IfA such functions relating to apprenticeships in relation to England as the Secretary of State considers appropriate.
(2) A function conferred by regulations under subsection (1) may involve the exercise of a discretion.
ZA6 Annual and other reports
‘(1) As soon as reasonably practicable after the end of each financial year, the IfA must prepare an annual report.
(2) An annual report is a report which includes—
(a) a description of what the IfA has done during the year, including a description of what the IfA has done as a result of any notice given by the Secretary of State under section ZA2(2),
(b) the statement of accounts prepared for that year under paragraph 11 of Schedule A1, and
(c) such other provision as the Secretary of State may direct.
(3) The IfA must send the report to the Secretary of State as soon as reasonably practicable after it has been prepared.
(4) The Secretary of State must lay a copy of the report before Parliament.
(5) The Secretary of State may direct the IfA to prepare, and send to the Secretary of State, as soon as reasonably practicable a report on any matter relating to its functions.
(6) In this section “financial year” means—
(a) the period beginning with the day on which this section comes into force and ending with the following 31 March, and
(b) each successive period of 12 months.
Compliance
ZA7 Secretary of State directions where the IfA fails to discharge duties etc
If the Secretary of State is satisfied that the IfA—
(a) has failed to discharge a duty imposed on it by or under this Act, or
(b) has acted or is proposing to act in an unreasonable way in exercising any function,
the Secretary of State may give the IfA such directions as the Secretary of State considers appropriate.
Directions
ZA8 General provision about directions under Chapters ZA1 and A1
‘(1) This section applies to a direction given to the IfA by the Secretary of State under this Chapter or Chapter A1.
(2) The IfA must comply with the direction.
(3) The direction must be in writing.”
3 Before section A1 insert—
“Introductory”
4 In section A1 (meaning of “approved English apprenticeship”), in subsection (3)(a) for “the Secretary of State has published an approved apprenticeship standard under section A2” substitute “an approved apprenticeship standard has been published under section A2”.
5 For section A2 (approved apprenticeship standards) substitute—
“Publication of standards and assessment plans
A2 Apprenticeship standards and assessment plans
‘(1) The IfA must publish—
(a) standards for such sectors of work as the IfA considers appropriate for the purposes of this Chapter, and
(b) assessment plans in respect of published standards.
(2) Each standard must—
(b) if there is more than one standard for the sector, describe the kind of work within the sector to which it relates.
(3) Each standard must set out the outcomes that persons seeking to complete an approved English apprenticeship are expected to attain in order to achieve the standard.
(4) An assessment plan in respect of a standard is a plan in accordance with which a person’s attainment of the outcomes set out in the standard is to be assessed.
(5) Each assessment plan must—
(b) set out the proposed arrangements for evaluating the quality of any assessment provided for by the plan.
(6) The following provisions supplement the provision made by this section—
section A2A makes provision about the preparation of apprenticeship standards and assessment plans;
sections A2B to A2D make provision related to ensuring the quality of apprenticeship assessments;
sections A2E and A2F make provision about the review, revision and withdrawal of apprenticeship standards and assessment plans;
section A2G makes provision for independent examinations of apprenticeship standards and assessment plans;
section A2H makes provision about the maintenance of a published list of apprenticeship standards and assessment plans;
section A2I provides for the automatic transfer to the IfA of copyright in apprenticeship standards and assessment plans.
A2A Preparation of apprenticeship standards and assessment plans
‘(1) Each standard or assessment plan published under section A2 must have been prepared by a group of persons and approved by the IfA.
(2) The group of persons that prepared a standard or assessment plan published under section A2 must have been approved by the IfA for the purposes of this section.
(3) The IfA may provide advice or assistance to a group of persons in connection with the preparation of a standard or assessment plan.
(4) The IfA must publish—
(a) information about matters that it takes into account when deciding whether or not to approve standards or plans for the purposes of subsection (1);
(b) information about matters that it takes into account when deciding whether or not to approve groups of persons for the purposes of subsection (2).
(5) When making a decision of the kind mentioned in subsection (4)(a) or (b) in a particular case, the IfA may also take into account such other matters as it considers appropriate in the case in question.
(6) Information published under subsection (4) may be revised or replaced, and the IfA must publish under that subsection any revised or replacement information.
Quality assurance
A2B Evaluation of quality of apprenticeship assessments
‘(1) The IfA must secure that evaluations are carried out of the quality of apprenticeship assessments provided by persons in relation to assessment plans published under section A2.
(2) “Apprenticeship assessment” means the assessment of a person’s attainment of the outcomes set out in the standard to which the assessment plan relates.
(3) For the purposes of subsection (1) the IfA may approve or make arrangements for other persons to carry out evaluations.
A2C Unsatisfactory apprenticeship assessments
‘(1) If the IfA considers that the quality of any apprenticeship assessment provided by a person is or may become unsatisfactory, it may carry out a review of the assessment, or make arrangements with another person for the carrying out of such a review.
(2) The IfA may, in consequence of a review, make arrangements for the purpose of improving the quality of the assessment to which the review relates.
(3) If the IfA—
(a) considers that the quality of any apprenticeship assessment provided by a person is or may become unsatisfactory, or
(b) that a person who provides an apprenticeship assessment has failed to co-operate with a review carried out under this section or with arrangements made under subsection (2),
it may report the matter to the Secretary of State or such other person as the IfA considers appropriate.
(4) A report under subsection (3) may contain recommendations as to the action to be taken by the person to whom the report is made.
(5) The IfA may publish a report under subsection (3).
A2D Committee to advise on quality evaluations etc
‘(1) The IfA may establish a committee with—
(a) the function of giving the IfA advice on the performance of its functions under sections A2B and A2C, and
(b) such other functions as may be conferred on the committee by the IfA.
(2) A majority of the members of the committee—
(a) must be persons who appear to the IfA to have experience of the assessment of education or training, and
(b) must not be members of the IfA.
(3) Subject to that, Schedule A1 applies to a committee established under this section as it applies to committees established under paragraph 7 of that Schedule.
Review, revision and withdrawal
A2E Regular reviews of published standards and assessment plans
‘(1) The IfA must maintain arrangements for the review at regular intervals of each standard or assessment plan published under this Chapter, with a view to determining whether the standard or plan ought to be revised or withdrawn.
(2) In respect of each standard or assessment plan published under this Chapter, the IfA must publish information about the intervals at which those reviews are to be conducted.
A2F Revision or withdrawal of published standards and assessment plans
‘(1) The IfA may—
(a) publish a revised version of a standard or assessment plan published under this Chapter, or
(b) withdraw a standard or assessment plan published under this Chapter (with or without publishing another in its place).
(2) Section A2A applies in relation to a revised version of a standard or plan published under this section as it applies in relation to a standard or plan published under section A2.
Other provisions about English approved apprenticeships
A2G Examinations by independent third parties
‘(1) Before the IfA approves a standard or assessment plan for the purposes of section A2A(1) it must make arrangements for the carrying out of an examination of the standard or plan by an independent third party.
(2) The duty imposed by subsection (1) does not apply in relation to a revised version of a standard or assessment plan, but the IfA may, for the purposes of a review under section A2E or at any other time, make arrangements for the carrying out of an examination of a standard or assessment plan by an independent third party.
(3) Where an examination of a standard or assessment plan is carried out under this section, the IfA must take account of the finding of the examination in exercising its functions in relation to the standard or plan under this Chapter.
(4) Nothing in subsection (1) prevents the IfA deciding to reject a standard or assessment plan without first making arrangements for the carrying out of an examination by an independent third party.
A2H List of published standards and assessment plans
‘(1) The IfA must maintain a list of the standards and assessment plans published by it under this Chapter.
(2) In respect of each standard and plan listed (including any revised version), the list must include details of when it comes into force.
(3) Where a revised version is listed, the list must include a general description of the cases to which the revised version applies.
(4) Where a standard or plan has been withdrawn, the list must include details of when the withdrawal comes into force and a general description of the cases to which it applies.
(5) The IfA must secure that the list is available free of charge at all reasonable times.
A2I Transfer of copyright in standards and assessment plans
‘(1) This section applies where—
(a) a standard or assessment plan is approved by the IfA undersection A2A, and
(b) a person (other than the IfA) is entitled, immediately before the time the approval is given, to any right or interest in any copyright in the standard or plan.
(2) The right or interest is, by virtue of this section, transferred from that person to the IfA at the time the approval is given.
(3) The IfA must ensure that a standard or assessment plan in relation to which a right or interest has transferred by virtue of subsection (2) is made available to the public, subject to any conditions that the IfA considers appropriate.”
6 (1) Section A3 (pow er to issue apprenticeship certificate) is amended as follows.
(2) In subsection (1) for “to” substitute “in respect of”.
(3) In subsection (2), for paragraph (b) substitute—
“(b) the supply by the Secretary of State of apprenticeship certificates issued under that subsection, and copies of those certificates, to—
(i) persons in respect of whom they were issued;
(ii) persons for whom those persons work or have worked under approved English apprenticeship agreements to which the certificates relate.”
7 In section 122 (sharing of information for education and training purposes)—
(a) in subsection (3) (persons who may provide and receive information), after paragraph (f) insert—
“(g) the IfA.”;
(b) in subsection (5) (functions for the purposes of which information may be provid ed)—
(i) omit the “or” at the end of paragraph (b), and
(ii) after paragraph (b) insert—
8 In section 262(6) (orders and regulations subject to affirmative procedure) before paragraph(ab) insert—
“(aab) regulations under section ZA5;”
9 Before Schedule 1 insert—
“Schedule A1
the Institute for Apprenticeships
Status
1 The IfA is to perform its functions on behalf of the Crown.
Membership
2 (1) The IfA is to consist of—
(a) a member appointed by the Secretary of State to chair the IfA (“the chair”);
(b) the chief executive appointed in accordance with paragraph 5;
(c) at least 4 and no more than 10 other members appointed by the Secretary of State.
(2) The chair and members appointed under sub-paragraph (1)(c) are referred to in this Schedule as the “non-executive members”.
Tenure of non-executive members
3 (1) The non-executive members hold and vacate office in accordance with the terms of their appointment.
(2) Those terms are to be determined by the Secretary of State, subject to the following provisions of this Schedule.
(3) A non-executive member must not be appointed for a term of more than five years.
(4) A non-executive member may resign from office at any time by giving written notice to the Secretary of State.
(5) The Secretary of State may remove a non-executive member from office on either of the following grounds—
(a) inability or unfitness to carry out the duties of office;
(b) absence from the IfA’s meetings for a continuous period of more than 6 months without the IfA’s permission.
(6) The previous appointment of a person as a non-executive member does not affect the person’s eligibility for re-appointment.
Remuneration of non-executive members
4 (1) The IfA must, if the Secretary of State requires it to do so, pay remuneration, allowances and expenses to its non-executive members.
(2) The IfA must, if the Secretary of State requires it to do so, pay, or make provision for the payment of, a pension, allowances or gratuities to or in respect of a person who is or has been a non-executive member.
(3) If a person ceases to be a non-executive member of the IfA and the Secretary of State decides that the person should be compensated because of special circumstances, the IfA must pay compensation to the person.
(4) The amount of a payment under sub-paragraph (1), (2) or (3) is to be determined by the Secretary of State.
(5) Service as a non-executive member is one of the kinds of service to which a scheme under section 1 of the Superannuation Act 1972 (superannuation schemes as respects civil servants etc) can apply (see Schedule 1 to that Act).
(6) The IfA must pay to the Minister for the Civil Service, at such times as the Minister may direct, such sums as the Minister may determine in respect of any increase attributable to the provision of pensions, allowances or gratuities under section 1 of the Superannuation Act 1972 payable to or in respect of non-executive members in the sums payable out of money provided by Parliament under the Superannuation Act 1972.
Chief executive and other staff
5 (1) The first chief executive is to be appointed by the Secretary of State on conditions of service determined by the Secretary of State, after consulting the chair.
(2) Subsequent chief executives are to be appointed by the IfA after consulting the Secretary of State.
(3) The chief executive must not be appointed for a term of more than five years.
(4) The previous appointment of a person as chief executive does not affect the person’s eligibility for re-appointment.
(5) The chief executive holds that office as a member of staff of the IfA.
(6) The IfA may appoint other members of staff.
(7) Service as a member of staff of the IfA is employment in the civil service of the State.
(8) The following are to be determined by the IfA with the approval of the Secretary of State—
(a) the number of members of staff of the IfA (in addition to the chief executive);
(b) the conditions of service of staff of the IfA.
(9) Sub-paragraph (8)(b) is subject to sub-paragraph (1).
Arrangements with Secretary of State
6 The Secretary of State and the IfA may enter into arrangements with each other for the provision to the IfA by the Secretary of State, on such terms as may be agreed, of staff, accommodation or services.
Committees
7 (1) The IfA may establish committees, and any committee established by the IfA may establish sub-committees.
(2) The IfA may—
(a) dissolve a sub-committee established under sub-paragraph (1), or
(b) alter the purposes for which such a sub-committee is established.
(3) In this Schedule a committee or sub-committee established under sub-paragraph (1) is referred to as an “IfA committee”.
(4) An IfA committee must include at least two persons who are members of the IfA or its staff.
(5) The IfA may, with the approval of the Secretary of State, arrange for the payment of remuneration, allowances and expenses to any person who—
(a) is a member of an IfA committee, but
(b) is not a member of the IfA or its staff.
(6) The IfA must, if directed to do so by the Secretary of State, review—
(a) the structure of IfA committees, and
(b) the scope of the activities of each IfA committee.
Procedure
8 (1) The IfA may regulate—
(a) its own proceedings (including quorum), and
(b) the procedure (including quorum) of IfA committees.
(2) The validity of proceedings of the IfA, or of an IfA committee, is not affected by—
(a) a vacancy;
(b) a defective appointment.
Exercise of functions
9 (1) Subject to sub-paragraphs (2) and (3), the IfA may authorise any of the following to exercise functions on its behalf—
(a) a member of the IfA;
(b) a member of the IfA’s staff;
(c) an IfA committee;
(d) any other person.
(2) The IfA may not authorise any of the functions under sections A2, A2A and A2E to A2I to be exercised on its behalf—
(a) under sub-paragraph (1)(c), by a committee a majority of the members of which are not members of the IfA’s staff, or
(b) under sub-paragraph (1)(d).
(3) The IfA may authorise the exercise on its behalf of functions that have been—
(a) delegated to the IfA by directions under section ZA4, or
(b) conferred on the IfA by regulations under section ZA5,
only if and to the extent that the directions or regulations so provide.
Supplementary powers
10 (1) The IfA may—
(a) provide information or advice to any person in connection with any of the IfA’s functions;
(b) co-operate or work jointly with any person where it is appropriate to do so for the efficient and effective performance of any of the IfA’s functions;
(c) carry out research for the purposes of, or in connection with, the IfA’s functions;
(d) do anything else that the IfA considers necessary or appropriate for the purposes of, or in connection with, its functions.
(2) The power in sub-paragraph (1)(d) is subject to any restrictions imposed by or under any provision of any Act.
(3) The IfA may not borrow money.
(4) The IfA may not, without the consent of the Secretary of State—
(a) lend money,
(b) form, participate in forming or invest in a company, or
(c) form, participate in forming or otherwise become a member of a charitable incorporated organisation (within the meaning of section 69A of the Charities Act 1993).
(5) In sub-paragraph (4) the reference to investing in a company includes a reference to becoming a member of the company and to investing in it by the acquisition of any assets, securities or rights or otherwise.
Accounts and reports
11 (1) The IfA must—
(a) keep proper accounts and proper records in relation to its accounts, and
(b) prepare in respect of each financial year a statement of accounts.
(2) Each statement of accounts must comply with any directions given by the Secretary of State as to—
(a) the information to be contained in it,
(b) the manner in which such information is to be presented, or
(c) the methods and principles according to which the statement is to be prepared.
(3) The IfA must send a copy of each statement of accounts to—
(a) the Secretary of State, and
(b) the Comptroller and Auditor General,
before the end of the month of August following the financial year to which the statement relates.
(4) The Comptroller and Auditor General must—
(a) examine, certify and report on each statement of accounts, and
(b) send a copy of each report and certified statement to the Secretary of State.
(5) The Secretary of State must lay before Parliament—
(a) a copy of each statement sent to the Secretary of State under sub-paragraph (3), and
(b) a copy of each report and certified statement sent to the Secretary of State under sub-paragraph (4).
(6) “Financial year” has the meaning given by section ZA6(6) (annual and other reports).
Application of seal and proof of documents
12 (1) The application of the IfA’s seal must be authenticated by the signature of—
(a) the chief executive, or
(b) a member of the IfA who has been authorised by the IfA for that purpose (whether generally or specifically).
(2) A document purporting to be duly executed under the IfA’s seal, or signed o n its behalf—
(a) is to be received in evidence, and
(b) is to be treated as executed or signed in that way, unless the contrary is proved.
Funding
13 (1) The Secretary of State may make grants to the IfA, or provide the IfA with any other kind of financial assistance, subject to any conditions that the Secretary of State considers appropriate.
(2) The conditions may, in particular—
(a) enable the Secretary of State to require full or partial repayment of sums paid by the Secretary of State if any of the conditions are not complied with;
(b) require the payment of interest in respect of any period during which a sum due to the Secretary of State in accordance with any of the conditions remains unpaid.”
10 In Schedule 1 to the Superannuation Act 1972, in the list of “Offices”, at the appropriate place insert—“Non-executive member of the Institute for Apprenticeships.”
“Non-executive member of the Institute for Apprenticeships.” |
11 In Part 6 of Schedule 1 to the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (public authorities) at the appropriate place insert—
“The Institute for Apprenticeships.”
This new Schedule establishes the Institute for Apprenticeships and makes provision about its functions.
Amendment (a) to new schedule 2, at end of new section ZA6(2) insert “including—
(i) responses to any conclusions and recommendations of the select committee of the House of Commons with oversight of the Government Department responsible for apprenticeships;
(ii) a report on the progress made in increasing the opportunities for disadvantaged groups to access apprenticeships under the frameworks.”
This Amendment would ensure progress made in increasing the opportunities for disadvantaged groups to access apprenticeships under the frameworks was reported and monitored.
Amendment (b) to new schedule 2, at end of new section ZA6(3) insert—
“as well as to the Business, Innovation and Skills and Education Select Committees of the House of Commons and any relevant sub-committee.”
This Amendment would confirm reports produced by the Institute for Apprenticeships are read and reviewed by the relevant committees listed and enable them to raise any issues arising directly with Ministers as from the relevant Select Committees.
Amendment (c) to new schedule 2, at end of paragraph 2 of new schedule A1 insert—
‘(1A) The Board of the Institute shall be broadly based, to take into account the experience and contribution of all interested parties, which will include—
(a) employers,
(b) further education providers and colleges,
(c) universities,
(d) relevant trade unions and
(e) local authorities.
(1B) The Board of the Institute shall have due regard to the equality implications of their role and functions, and in particular, that in the frameworks and regulations they approve, the need to encourage and expand opportunities for apprenticeships for BAME, people with disabilities and care leavers shall be prioritised.”
Subsection (1A) is intended to ensure that there is a broad membership of the Board of the Institute, which encompasses and utilises the experience and expertise of all groups involved with, and crucial to, the successful promotion and delivery of apprenticeships. Subsection (1B) would lay a responsibility on the Board to encourage and expand opportunities for apprenticeships for BAME, people with disabilities and care leavers.
Government amendment 94.
Anna Soubry
We began our deliberations two weeks ago. Last week was meant to be the recess, but I imagine most of us were working. It is nice to have an opportunity to put that on the record.
The new Institute for Apprenticeships will help to deliver high-quality approved English apprenticeships within the context of the Government’s £3 million target. It is a new body with no past involvement in apprenticeships. It is important to ensure that employers feel it is credible and reliable. An independent chair and board made up primarily of employers and business leaders and their representatives will lead the IfA, which is what it will be known as.
An employers-led IfA is essential for credibility and success. Mandating other groups to be included on the board could eventually exclude them. The IfA is already required to lay all reports before Parliament so they will be available to all Members. The annual Government letter could be used to ensure that Select Committees are sent their own copies. Apprenticeships, as we all know, are jobs. Government cannot impose a requirement on employers to employ certain groups over others.
I hope, therefore, that the Committee will accept that the new IfA is the right step forward. By way of example to give a little more detail, sector and assessment experts, academics and others will all help the IfA to carry out its functions with the best possible expert advice. Employer groups will continue to develop the content of standards and assessment plans, and they will ensure that they are fit for purpose. The IfA will accurately represent the needs of employers, which is fundamental to apprenticeship reforms, and to the success of apprenticeships.
It is right that so many apprenticeships are excellent but it is also the case that there is concern among employers that some apprenticeships are not tailored enough to their needs as well as to the wider needs of society. It is imperative that this is led by the very people who will provide those apprenticeships. It goes without saying that they will work hand in glove with the providers to ensure that they deliver what is needed by our employers. I do not intend to say much more on that at this stage.
Kevin Brennan
The Minister is right to remind us that we debated apprenticeships two weeks ago, at the appropriate point in the Bill. People may have forgotten the reason we are debating this now, so it is worth reminding the Committee that it is because the Government were not able to get their amendments in on time to debate it at the appropriate place in the Bill. At that time, we tabled a new clause to create an institute for apprenticeships and we are still of the view that our proposal is better than the Government’s and that it is more comprehensive, inclusive and extensive. That is why we are disappointed by the Government’s proposal, although we will not vote against it as it is right to create this institute. It could be improved by some of the suggestions that we made in amendments (a), (b) and (c) that we tabled to the Government’s new schedule 2.
Amendment (a) to new schedule 2 would ensure that progress made in increasing the opportunities for disadvantaged groups to access apprenticeships under the framework was reported and monitored. To avoid the risk of being tedious, because we discussed that earlier I will not rehearse those arguments again. I will simply refer anyone reading the record to our earlier debate.
Amendment (b) to new schedule 2 would confirm reports produced by the institute for apprenticeships are read and reviewed by the relevant Committees, which we list, and enable them to raise directly with Ministers any issues arising. We think that is important because Select Committees with responsibilities for apprenticeships must have the opportunity to scrutinise and recommend action based on the institute’s work. I am interested to hear the Minister’s view on that.
With amendment (c) we return again to an earlier discussion—we have had to debate this at the end because the Government’s proposals were not ready in time. The amendment is intended to ensure that there is a broad membership of the board of the institute for apprenticeships. We discussed that extensively earlier so I will not repeat those arguments.
I would be interested to hear the Minister give the Government’s response to our suggestions in amendment (b) before we conclude.
Anna Soubry
I do not think I am in a position to be able to do that, Ms Buck. I will have to write to the hon. Gentleman because I do not have that amendment in front of me, unfortunately. I do not think it is actually in the document I have, so I apologise for that. I am more than happy to take an intervention, which might enable the hon. Gentleman just to hand it over to me. I do not think he has it either.
Kevin Brennan
On a point of order, Ms Buck. Is there any means by which we could perhaps return to the matter this afternoon, to give the Minister and her officials an opportunity to provide the answer we were looking for to the amendment, which we tabled in time, and which appeared in the appropriate part of the amendment paper?
Anna Soubry
My hon. Friend the Member for Charnwood is sitting behind me, standing in for my normal Parliamentary Private Secretary and doing an excellent job, because unfortunately my hon. Friend the Member for Rugby is extremely poorly at the moment—and now, by magic, I can assist the hon. Member for Cardiff West. The view of the Government is that we do not need legislation to send the reports to Select Committees. It is as simple as that.
That relates to what I said about the fact that the procedures already exist. We do not need legislation, because we can already do it. If we need to do it we will. I am sorry that something so simple has taken so long for me to answer.
Kevin Brennan
May I gently say to the Minister that a lot of give and take is always required in Committee, and we have our job to do in scrutinising the Bill and proposing Opposition amendments? The Government have their job, and the minimum requirement is to turn up prepared to discuss with the Committee every clause and every amendment that has been selected. That, if I may say so, is government 101.
It is becoming a little bit of a pattern that that preparation has not been done, and I do not know why it is so, but there have been a number of occasions where it seems as if the Minister does not have the full briefing that she should have in front of her. If I am being unkind I will withdraw that, but it is for other Members who watch our proceedings and for Committee members to decide what they think about it. However, it is the minimum requirement, if I may put it as gently as that, that we should receive a response to our amendment from the Government. We are trying to do our job and the Minister is trying to do hers. We need the preparation to be done in advance of our proceedings. On that basis, and to save further embarrassment, I will not press our amendment.
Question put and agreed to.
New clause 22 read a Second time and added to the Bill.
New Clause 23
The Institute for Apprenticeships: transitional provision
“(1) Subsection (2) applies to—
(a) any standard approved and published by the Secretary of State under section A2 of the 2009 Act before the appointed day;
(b) any plan which—
(i) relates to the assessment of a person’s attainment of outcomes set out in a standard mentioned in paragraph (a), and
(ii) was approved and published by the Secretary of State for the purposes of that assessment before the appointed day.
(2) Such a standard or plan is to be treated on and after the appointed day as having been approved by the Institute for Apprenticeships under section A2A of the 2009 Act and published by it under section A2 of that Act (as amended by Schedule (The Institute for Apprenticeships)).
(3) A standard or plan within subsection (1) is to be treated for the purposes of section A2I of the 2009 Act (as inserted by Schedule (The Institute for Apprenticeships)) as having been approved by the Institute for Apprenticeship at the beginning of the appointed day.
(4) This section does not limit the provision that may be made under clause 37.
(5) In this section—
“the appointed day” means the day on which section A2A of the Apprenticeship, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009 (inserted by Schedule (The Institute for Apprenticeships)) comes into force;
“the 2009 Act” means the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009.”—(Anna Soubry.)
This new Clause makes transitional provision relating to the establishment of the Institute for Apprenticeships.
Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.
New Clause 21
Extended Sunday opening hours and Sunday working
“(1) The Sunday Trading Act 1994 is amended in accordance with subsections (2) to (4).
(2) In paragraph 2 of Schedule 1 (which restricts the opening hours of large shops on Sundays), after sub-paragraph (3) insert—
“(3A) Sub-paragraph (1) does not apply in relation to the opening of a large shop during any other period on a Sunday in accordance with a consent notice published under paragraph 2A (subject to sub-paragraph (4)).”
(3) After that paragraph insert—
“Consent notices published by Sunday trading authorities
2A (1) The Sunday trading authority for an area may publish a notice (a “consent notice”) in accordance with this paragraph providing for large shops in the authority’s area to be permitted to do either or both of the following—
(a) to open on a Sunday for a continuous period of whatever number of hours is specified in the notice (in addition to the continuous period of six hours mentioned in paragraph 2(3));
(b) to open on a Sunday at specified times beginning earlier than, or ending later than, the times mentioned in paragraph 2(3).
(2) A consent notice published by a Sunday trading authority may apply in relation to the whole or any part of the authority’s area.
(3) A Sunday trading authority may, by publishing a further notice, vary or revoke a consent notice that applies in relation to its area.
(4) Before varying or revoking a consent notice under sub-paragraph (3), a Sunday trading authority must give reasonable notice to occupiers of large shops whose opening hours on Sundays would be affected by the variation or revocation.
(5) Publication of a notice under this paragraph may take whatever form the authority publishing it thinks appropriate for the purpose of bringing the notice to the attention of occupiers of large shops in the area to which the notice relates.
(6) Subject to sub-paragraph (7), the Sunday trading authority for an area is the local authority for the area.
(7) In relation to the area of Greater London, the Sunday trading authority is the Mayor of London acting on behalf of the Greater London Authority.”
(4) Accordingly—
(a) in paragraph 2 of Schedule 1 (restrictions on Sunday opening)—
(i) in sub-paragraph (1), for “and (3)” substitute “, (3) and (3A)”;
(ii) in sub-paragraph (4), for “exemption conferred by sub-paragraph (3) above does” substitute “exemptions conferred by sub-paragraphs (3) and (3A) do”;
(b) in paragraph 6 of that Schedule (duty to display notice), after “sub-paragraph (3)” insert “or (3A)”;
(c) in paragraph 8 of that Schedule (defence to an offence of contravening opening restrictions), after “paragraph 2(3)” insert “or (3A)”;
(d) in paragraph 1(a) of Schedule 3 (loading and unloading at large shops on Sunday morning: application), after “paragraph 2(3)” insert “or (3A)”.
(5) Schedule (Sunday opening hours: rights of shop workers), which contains amendments of employment legislation relating to the rights of shop workers to opt out of working on Sunday, has effect.”—(Brandon Lewis.)
This new Clause amends the Sunday Trading Act 1994, giving powers to local areas to extend Sunday trading hours for large shops (with a retail floor area greater than 280 square metres). The extended hours can apply to the whole or part of the local area. The new Clause also introduces a new Schedule to the Bill containing amendments to the Employment Rights Act 1996 and the Employment Act 2002 in relation to Sunday working.
Brought up, and read the First time.
The Minister for Housing and Planning (Brandon Lewis)
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Government new schedule 1—Sunday opening hours: rights of shop workers.
“Schedule
Sunday opening hours: rights of shop workers
Employment Rights Act 1996
1 The Employment Rights Act 1996 is amended as follows.
2 In section 41 (opted-out shop workers and betting workers), for subsection (3) substitute—
(3) In this Act “notice period”, in relation to an opted-out shop worker or an opted-out betting worker, means—
(a) in the case of an opted-out shop worker who does shop work in or about a large shop, the period of one month beginning with the day on which the opting-out notice concerned was given;
(b) in any other case, the period of three months beginning with that day.
This subsection is subject to sections 41D(2) and 42(2).”
3 After section 41 insert—
“41A Notice of objection by shop workers to working additional hours on Sunday
(1) A shop worker may at any time give to his or her employer a written notice, signed and dated by the shop worker, to the effect that he or she objects to doing shop work for additional hours on Sunday.
(2) In this Part—
“additional hours” means any number of hours of shop work that a shop worker is (or could be) required to work under a contract of employment on Sunday that are(or would be) in excess of the shop worker’s normal Sunday working hours;
“objection notice” means a notice given under subsection (1).
(3) The “normal Sunday working hours” of a shop worker are to be calculated in accordance with regulations.
(4) Regulations under this section may provide—
(a) for the calculation to be determined (for example) by reference to the average number of hours that the shop worker has worked on Sundays during a period specified or described in the regulations;
(b) for a calculation of the kind mentioned in paragraph (a) to be varied in special cases;
(c) for the right to give an objection notice not to be exercisable in special cases (and subsection (1) is subject to provision made by virtue of this paragraph).
(5) Provision under subsection (4)( b) or (c) may, in particular, include provision—
(a) about how the calculation of normal Sunday working hours is to be made in the case of a shop worker who has not been employed for a sufficient period of time to enable a calculation to be made as otherwise provided for in the regulations;
(b) for the right to give an objection notice not to be exercisable by such a shop worker until he or she has completed a period of employment specified or described in the regulations.
(6) But regulations under this section may not include provision preventing a shop worker who has been continuously employed under a contract of employment for a period of one year or more from giving to the employer an objection notice.
(7) Regulations under this section may make different provision for different purposes.
41B Explanatory statement: persons who become shop workers
(1) This section applies where a person becomes a shop worker who, under a contract of employment, is or may be required to do shop work on Sundays.
(2) The employer must give to the shop worker a written statement informing the shop worker of the following rights—
(a) the right to object to working on Sundays by giving the employer an opting-out notice (if section 40 applies to the shop worker);
(b) the right to object to doing shop work for additional hours on Sundays by giving the employer an objection notice.
(3) The statement must be given before the end of the period of two months beginning with the day on which the person becomes a shop worker as mentioned in subsection (1).
(4) An employer does not fail to comply with subsections (2) and (3) in a case where, before the end of the period referred to in subsection (3), the shop worker has given to the employer an opting-out notice (and that notice has not been withdrawn).
(5) A statement under this section must comply with such requirements as to form and content as regulations may provide.
(6) Regulations under this section may make different provision for different purposes.
41C Explanatory statement: shop workers at commencement date
(1) This section applies where—
(a) under a contract of employment a shop worker is or may be required to do shop work on Sundays, and
(b) the shop worker was employed under that contract on the day before the commencement date.
(2) The shop worker’s employer must give to the shop worker a written statement informing the shop worker of the rights mentioned in section 41B(2).
(3) The statement must be given before the end of the period of two months beginning with the commencement date.
(4) An employer does not fail to comply with subsections (2) and (3) in a case where, before the end of the period referred to in subsection (3), the shop worker has given to the employer an opting-out notice (and that notice has not been withdrawn).
(5) A statement under this section must comply with such requirements as to form and content as regulations may provide.
(6) Regulations under this section may make different provision for different purposes.
(7) In this section “commencement date” means the date appointed by regulations under section38 of the Enterprise Act 2016 for the coming into force of section (Extended Sunday opening hour and Sunday working)(5) of, and Schedule (Sunday opening hours: rights of shop workers) to, that Act.
41D Failure to give explanatory statement under section 41B or 41C
(1) This section applies if an employer fails to give to a shop worker a written statement in accordance with—
(a) section 41B(2) and (3), or
(b) section 41C(2) and (3).
(2) If the shop worker gives to the employer an opting-out notice, the notice period under section 41(3) that applies in relation to the shop worker is varied as follows—
(a) if the notice period under that provision would have been one month, it becomes 7 days instead;
(b) if the notice period under that provision would have been three months, it becomes one month instead.
(3) If the shop worker gives to the employer an objection notice, the relevant period under section 43ZA(2) that applies in relation to the shop worker is varied as follows—
(a) if the relevant period under that provision would have been one month, it becomes 7 days instead;
(b) if the relevant period under that provision would have been three months, it becomes one month instead.”
4 (1) Section 42 (explanatory statement) is amended as follows.
(2) In the heading, after “statement” insert “: betting workers”.
(3) In subsection (1) omit “shop worker or”.
(4) In subsection (2)—
(a) in paragraph (a) omit “shop worker or”;
(b) in paragraph (b)—
(i) after “the” omit “shop worker or”;
(ii) omit “an opted-out shop worker or”.
(5) In subsection (3) omit “shop worker or”.
(6) Omit subsection (4).
(7) In subsection (6)—
(a) for “forms” substitute “form”;
(b) for “subsections (4) and (5)” substitute “subsection (5)”.
5 In the heading of section 43, after “work” insert “: opting-out notices”.
6 After section 43 (in Part 4) insert—
“43ZA Contractual requirements relating to working additional hours on Sundays: objection notices
(1) Where a shop worker gives to his or her employer an objection notice, any agreement entered into between the shop worker and the employer becomes unenforceable to the extent that—
(a) it requires the shop worker to do shop work for additional hours on Sunday after the end of the relevant period, or
(b) it requires the employer to provide the shop worker with shop work for additional hours on Sunday after the end of that period.
(2) The “relevant period” is—
(a) in the case of a shop worker who is or may be required to do shop work in or about a large shop, the period of one month beginning with the day on which the objection notice is given;
(b) in any other case, the period of three months beginning with that day.
This subsection is subject to section 41D(3).
(3) A shop worker who has given an objection notice may revoke the notice by giving a further written notice to the employer.
(4) Where—
(a) a shop worker gives to the employer a notice under subsection (3), and
(b) after giving the notice the shop worker expressly agrees with the employer to do shop work for additional hours on Sunday (whether on Sundays generally or on a particular Sunday),
the contract of employment between the shop worker and the employer is to be taken to be varied to the extent necessary to give effect to the terms of the agreement.
(5) The reference in subsection (1) to any agreement—
(a) includes the contract of employment under which the shop worker is employed immediately before giving the objection notice;
(b) includes an agreement of a kind mentioned in subsection (4), or a contract of employment as taken to be varied under that subsection, only if an objection notice is given in relation to the working of additional hours under that agreement or contract as varied.
43ZB Interpretation
(1) In this Part—
“additional hours” has the meaning given in section 41A(2);
“large shop” means a shop which has a relevant floor area exceeding 280 square metres;
“objection notice” has the meaning given in section 41A(2);
“regulations” means regulations made by the Secretary of State.
(2) In the definition of “large shop” in subsection (1)—
(a) “shop” means any premises where there is carried on a trade or business consisting wholly or mainly of the sale of goods;
(b) “relevant floor area” means the internal floor area of so much of the large shop in question as consists of or is comprised in a building.
(3) For the purposes of subsection (2), any part of the shop which is not used for the serving of customers in connection with the sale or display of goods is to be disregarded.
(4) The references in subsections (2) and (3) to the sale of goods does not include—
(a) the sale of meals, refreshments or alcohol (within the meaning of the Licensing Act 2003) for consumption on the premises on which they are sold, or
(b) the sale of meals or refreshments prepared to order for immediate consumption off those premises.”
7 After section 45 insert—
“45ZA Sunday working for shop workers: additional hours
(1) Subsection (2) applies where a shop worker has given an objection notice to his or her employer and the notice has not been withdrawn.
(2) The shop worker has the right not to be subjected to any detriment by any act, or any deliberate failure to act, by the employer done on the ground that the shop worker refused (or proposed to refuse) to do shop work for additional hours on Sunday or on a particular Sunday.
(3) Subsection (2) does not apply to anything done on the ground that the shop worker refused (or proposed to refuse) to do shop work for additional hours on any Sunday or Sundays falling before the end of the relevant period.
(4) A shop worker has the right not to be subjected to any detriment by any act, or any deliberate failure to act, by his or her employer on the ground that the shop worker gave (or proposed to give) an objection notice to the employer.
(5) Subsections (2) and (4) do not apply where the detriment in question amounts to dismissal (within the meaning of Part 10).
(6) For the purposes of this section, a shop worker who does not do shop work for additional hours on Sunday or on a particular Sunday is not to be regarded as having been subjected to any detriment by—
(a) a failure to pay remuneration in respect of doing shop work for additional hours on Sunday which the shop worker has not done, or
(7) Subsections (8) and (9) apply where—
(a) an employer offers to pay a sum specified in the offer to a shop worker if he or she agrees to do shop work for additional hours on Sunday or on a particular Sunday, and
(b) the shop worker—
(i) has given an objection notice to the employer that has not been withdrawn, or
(ii) is not obliged under a contract of employment to do shop work for additional hours on Sunday.
(8) A shop worker to whom the offer is not made is not to be regarded for the purposes of this section as having been subjected to any detriment by any failure—
(a) to make the offer to the shop worker, or
(b) to pay the shop worker the sum specified in the offer.
(9) A shop worker who does not accept the offer is not to be regarded for the purposes of this section as having been subjected to any detriment by any failure to pay the shop worker the sum specified in the offer.
(10) In this section—
“additional hours” and “objection notice” have the meanings given by section 41A(2);
“relevant period” means the period determined by section 43ZA(2) (but subject to section 41D(3)).”
8 After section 101 insert—
“101ZA Shop workers who refuse to work additional hours on Sunday
(1) Subsection (2) applies where a shop worker has given an objection notice that has not been withdrawn and he or she is dismissed.
(2) The shop worker is to be regarded for the purposes of this Part as unfairly dismissed if the reason (or the principal reason) for the dismissal is that he or she refused, or proposed to refuse, to do shop work for additional hours on Sunday or on a particular Sunday.
(3) Subsection (2) does not apply where the reason (or principal reason) for the dismissal is that the shop worker refused (or proposed to refuse) to do shop work for additional hours on any Sunday or Sundays falling before the end of the relevant period.
(4) A shop worker who is dismissed is to be regarded for the purposes of this Part as unfairly dismissed if the reason (or principal reason) for the dismissal is that the worker gave (or proposed to give) an objection notice to the employer.
(5) In this section—
“additional hours” and “objection notice” have the meanings given by section 41A(2);
“relevant period” means the period determined by section 43ZA(2) (but subject to section 41D(3)).”
9 In section 236 (orders and regulations), in subsection (3) after “27B,” insert “41A that include provision under subsection (4)(c) of that section,”.
Employment Act 2002
10 In section 38 of the Employment Act 2002 (failure to give statement of employment particulars etc)—
(a) in subsection (2)(b), after “change)” insert “or under section 41B or 41C of that Act (duty to give a written statement in relation to rights not to work on Sunday)”;
(b) in subsection (3)(b), after “1996” insert “or under section 41B or 41C of that Act”.”
This new Schedule contains amendments to employment legislation. The amendments: (a) shorten the notice period for opting out of Sunday work in the case of shop workers at large shops, (b) confer a new right to object to working additional hours on Sunday, (c) require employers to give statements explaining those rights, (d) confer protections against detriment and unfair dismissal for refusing to work additional hours on Sunday, and (e) provide for fines in tribunal proceedings if there is a failure to give explanatory statements.
Government amendment (a) to new schedule 1, after paragraph 4(4)(b) insert—
“(c) in the words after paragraph (b), omit “shop worker or””.
This is a technical amendment of NS1 which removes a further reference to a shop worker from section 42 of the Employment Rights Act 1996 (as that section is to apply only to betting workers as a consequence of other amendments made by this New Schedule).
Government amendment (b) to new schedule 1, in new section 43ZB(4)(a), after “2003” insert
“or, in relation to Scotland, the Licensing (Scotland) Act 2005 (asp 16)”.
This is a technical amendment that provides for a definition of “alcohol” in relation to Scotland by reference to the relevant legislation of the Scottish Parliament.
Government amendments 76 and 77.
The Minister for Housing and Planning (Brandon Lewis)
It is a pleasure to make my first outing under your chairmanship, Ms Buck, even just for these last few minutes before we move on to the afternoon sitting.
In the 20 years since the Sunday Trading Act 1994 was passed, the nature of retail has changed. For example, internet retailers now operate 24 hours a day, seven days a week, and the working patterns of families have changed, so many now want greater flexibility about when they shop. New clause 21 devolves the power to extend Sunday trading hours to local authorities. That includes unitary authorities and district councils that are not unitary authorities across England and Wales, the elected Mayor of London and future mayors resulting from future devolution deals, including the Mayor of Greater Manchester.
Let me be clear. The Government will not dictate to local leaders how they should use the power. We are putting decision-making powers where they should be: in the hands of local leaders. Councils will be able to decide for themselves whether it is effective and appropriate to extend Sunday trading hours in their area, reflecting the needs of local businesses and communities and the shopping habits and economic conditions of the locality.
We have seen the rise of the internet, particularly in the past few years. As the Minister for high streets in the previous Parliament, I know from talking to retailers just how fast online retail is moving. In the UK, we already have the largest online market in Europe, and online sales have continued to increase, reaching 15% of total retail sales in 2015. Things are moving very quickly.
Local leaders will be able to use the consent notice to zone their local area, if they wish. That enables them, for example, to support local traders and independent shops in a focused way in and around high streets and market squares, helping them to compete with online retailers. Retailers in the west end and Knightsbridge— [Laughter.] While Members on the Opposition Benches laugh, I think they should listen to the figures, so that they realise just how important this matter is. Those retailers estimate that opening for just two extra hours on a Sunday would bring economic benefits in the region of between £190 million and £290 million annually. Those retailers also estimate that up to 2,160 full-time equivalent jobs would be created. Just think about what that could mean right across the country, not least in areas that have the opportunity to see real benefit, particularly given that Sunday is now the biggest online retailing day of the week. Devolving the powers will provide greater flexibility for businesses and shop workers and reduce prices for consumers. It will drive competition and productivity, creating jobs and boosting local economies.
Some shop workers are keen to have the opportunity to work longer hours on a Sunday. For them, the weekend represents the best or, in some cases, only time they can work. For example, it may be easier for them to access childcare or they may be students looking for extra or more part-time work.
Members will no doubt know that we have heard from many respondents with concerns that shop workers could be pressured to work on Sundays or to work more hours on a Sunday than they may want to, at the expense of important time with the family, for caring responsibilities or for religious observance. I am clear and up front that we recognise the need for effective protections for shop workers who do not want to work on Sundays or who do not want to work longer hours on Sundays. That is why new clause 21 introduces new schedule 1, which delivers significant strengthening of the rights for shop workers in England, Wales and Scotland by amending the Employment Rights Act 1996 and the Employment Act 2002. The new schedule reduces the notice period for shop workers to opt out of Sunday working altogether from three months to one month in large shops. We recognise that there is a bigger challenge for small shops, so they will need longer to find alternative staffing. The new schedule creates a new right for shop workers to opt out of working more than their normal Sunday working hours subject to one month’s notice for large shops and three months’ notice for small shops.
Brandon Lewis
I will give way in one second; I just want to finish the last point. The new schedule updates the obligation on employers to notify shop workers of their rights by specifying in regulations the form and content of the explanatory notice that employers must provide to existing and new shop workers. It also strengthens the consequences for failure to comply in some important ways.
Catherine McKinnell
The Minister talks about rights for shop workers, but surely he must understand that rights are only as good as the ability to use and enforce them. I could make many points, and I will when I make my speech, but one point I must make is that the Government have made it increasingly difficult for any employee to enforce their rights at work, so much of what he is saying is meaningless.
Brandon Lewis
The hon. Lady will be pleased to know that what I was just about to outline is a direct response to the point she raised. It is important that people are aware of their rights so that they can exercise them, which is why we are strengthening the consequences for failure to comply in two important ways. First, where the employer fails to comply with the notification requirement, the notice period for both opt-outs will reduce automatically from one month to just seven days for large shops, and from three months to one month for small shops. Secondly, we are enabling an employment tribunal to make a minimum award of two weeks’ pay if an employer is found to have failed to notify shop workers of their opt-out rights in the context of a related successful claim. In due course I shall explain how shop workers will be able to exercise and understand their rights.
Catherine McKinnell
What work have the Government undertaken to assess how many shop workers are currently able to exercise their existing rights to exempt themselves from Sunday working in order to inform these measures which, supposedly, protect employees who do not want to work on Sundays?
Brandon Lewis
All shop workers have that right, but my view is very much that we need to ensure that it is more transparent and that they have a better understanding. To exercise rights, people need to know what they are.
New schedule 1 provides powers to make regulations about the meaning of “normal Sunday working hours” and the form and content of explanatory notices. Amendment 76 will enable those powers to come into force on Royal Assent and allow the Government to pass the regulations, but naturally we intend the regulations themselves to come into force with the provisions on Sunday trading hours and the improvements to shop workers’ rights. We intend to define a shop worker’s “normal Sunday working hours” as an average over a number of Sundays, so that the phrase means essentially what it says but is specific enough that both the shop worker and the employer know where they stand. We will publish draft regulations and invite views from stakeholders to take into account issues such as seasonal work.
On the hon. Lady’s very fair point, our intention on the form and content of explanatory notices to shop workers is that as well as being updated, they will be in clearer English than the text in the existing legislation so that shop workers can clearly understand their rights and will be able to exercise them. We also intend to include pointers to sources of further information and advice, such as the ACAS helpline, guidance on gov.uk or, indeed, the relevant union. The changes amount to substantial improvements to shop workers’ rights.
Catherine McKinnell
In explaining the purpose of the clause, the Minister is shining a light on the big problem that the provisions will present to many shop workers in trying to remedy the situation in advance. He must recognise, though, that many shop workers do not want to enter into a dispute with their employer over this issue. Perhaps the Government should think again about whether they should introduce changes that will put both shop workers and their employers into a difficult position.
Brandon Lewis
Actually, we are enhancing the position for both employers and shop workers. We are improving shop workers’ rights and giving better access to and understanding of those rights; we are putting a bigger duty on employers to notify their staff of their rights; we are increasing the penalty for employers who do not abide by the rules; and, importantly, we are giving wider opportunity and choice to local economies and people who wish to work longer on a Sunday or to spend time with their families either by shopping on a Sunday or before or after they have shopped.
Let me be clear to the Committee more generally: if a shop worker suffers detriment, or is dismissed for exercising, or even just planning to exercise, their opt-out rights, the employer will be breaking the law. It is important that that is on the record so that anyone can see it.
Bill Esterson
How does the Minister envisage the rules being enforced? One concern that has been expressed is that the Government can legislate all they want on these sorts of things, but in the end it comes down to the balance of the relationship and whether anyone is prepared to challenge their employer. When a law has been broken, it comes down to whether anything meaningful—anything with teeth—can be applied. How will it work and how realistic are the proposals?
Brandon Lewis
I say gently to the hon. Gentleman that, if during the lunch break he looks back over what I said just a few moments ago, he will see that we are increasing the penalties on employers who do not abide by the rules. Not only are we increasing the financial penalty and, therefore, the benefit for an employee who is unfairly treated, but we are giving further responsibilities to the employer on the notice period that they need to give.
It is important that people understand what workers’ rights are, which is why we are increasing the number of ways for people to understand them and know how to exercise them. I say it again: a very large number of people in this country want to work longer hours and want the flexibility to be able to work more hours on a Sunday as opposed to other hours in the week.
Some retailers I have spoken to have been clear that in some areas Sunday is the easiest day of the week for them to recruit staff who want to work. It is good for family opportunities, and it is particularly good for women and students who want to work. We want to ensure that we create that opportunity for more local areas so that they have economic growth and create more jobs, and so that there are more opportunities for people to work if they want to, all while retaining the flexibility for both the local area and shop workers to have the choice.
Brandon Lewis
I can see that the hon. Gentleman is very keen to intervene again.
Bill Esterson
Well, it is an incredibly important point. I was talking about the penalties. How likely is it that the rules will be enforced and the penalties used? We are told that there has been an impact assessment, but it has not been published yet, so we are in the dark as to just how effective the remedies are going to be.
Brandon Lewis
I will admit that it is some years since I was working in employment law, but the laws have been around for a long time. The process by which employees can use their rights has been there and has been developing and evolving for a long time. We are developing it further by increasing employees’ rights.
Not only Conservative but Labour local authorities are keen to have these powers so that they can see their local areas grow and have that flexibility. Ultimately, I feel so passionately about this not only because of the opportunity to see high streets flourish when they can compete with online shopping, which is growing exponentially—not only can we now shop online on Sundays, but companies will deliver at any hour on a Sunday, so we need to give our high streets that chance—but because it is about devolving power, moving it from central Government to where it matters: local communities.
I shall now touch briefly on the technical amendments we have tabled. Amendment (a) to new schedule 1 amends the new schedule to remove an additional reference to a “shop worker” from section 42 of the Employment Rights Act 1996. To be clear, that is simply because, as a consequence of the changes we are making, that section will no longer apply to shop workers. Amendment (b) to new schedule 1 amends the new schedule to provide for a definition of “alcohol” in relation to Scotland by reference to the relevant legislation of the Scottish Parliament. Finally, amendment 77 amends the long title of the Bill to include reference to the Sunday trading provisions.
Kevin Brennan
The Minister said it might be worth while if, over the lunch break, we were to look at what he said earlier. Would he be able to provide us with a copy of his notes? Otherwise we will have to rely on what we heard. We can do that, but he did offer.
Brandon Lewis
I can repeat what I said for the hon. Gentleman very clearly. First, where the employer fails to comply with the notification requirement, the notice period for both opt-outs will reduce automatically: from one month to seven days at large shops, and from three months to one month at small shops. Secondly, we are enabling an employment tribunal to make a minimum award if an employer is found to have failed to notify shop workers of their opt-out rights in the context of a related successful claim. With that, I commend the new clause to the Committee.
Bill Esterson
Finally, we have the long-anticipated debate on Sunday trading. Until the eve of Committee stage, uncertainty reigned as to whether we would be debating it at all—as it was, of course, only the week before that the Secretary of State had announced that Sunday trading would be part of the Bill. From what the Minister just said, it seems that the new clause might be more correctly called the “Harrods clause”, given that Knightsbridge is the only part of the country he could cite where there is support from the high street for the Government’s proposals.
Brandon Lewis
As I am sure the hon. Gentleman will recollect, I explained the matter to him. Think of the impact across the country. Even in a constituency such as mine, where tourism in its high street is looking to compete with out-of-town shops and online, it is a massive opportunity. I gave an example to highlight just how big these numbers are and how many jobs will potentially be created. I hope he understands that.
Bill Esterson
Those are points I will come to. I did not know that Harrods had a shop in the Minister’s constituency or that it contained the Knightsbridge of the east.
The other description might have been the “domino clause”. The Minister talked about local leaders having the opportunity. The Opposition fully support the proper devolution of powers and responsibilities, and the ability to make a difference in the local area. Although he talked about local leaders, he did not talk about the views of the local community, the workers affected or the small independent retailers and the impact the proposals will have on many small shops.
The problem is that, when talking to local authority leaders and chief executives, as some organisations have done, one main reason given for saying they may well end up implementing these provisions is that they feel they have no choice. Their neighbours having allowed Tesco, Asda or out-of-town shopping centres to have extended opening hours on a Sunday, they fear that loss of trade within their own boundaries will force them down the route of using these provisions in their own local authority area.
The Government knew full well that any attempt to reform Sunday trading legislation would spark significant debate and opposition from a wide range of stakeholders. The Prime Minister’s spokeswoman wrote on 20 April last year to the campaign group Keep Sunday Special assuring them that the Conservatives had no plans to relax Sunday trading laws. Indeed, it was not in the Conservative party manifesto. She wrote:
“I can assure you that we have no current plans to relax the Sunday trading laws. We believe that the current system provides a reasonable balance between those who wish to see more opportunity to shop in large stores on a Sunday, and those who would like to see further restrictions.”
There we have it. Presumably, in the Conservative party, the Government and the previous coalition Government, when the Prime Minister’s official spokesperson spoke it was on his behalf and we should take as gospel what she said at the time. The country as a whole should have trusted what we were told on 20 April. The Government knew this would be opposed and were that worried about it that they went so far as to reassure the country before the election that they had no plans to change Sunday trading laws. They knew it would be opposed, cause problems and break the consensus that had stood for 22 years, since the Sunday Trading Act 1994.
The amendments we are considering include a change to the name of the Bill in amendment 77, as the Minister has just said, to include Sunday trading. We have to wonder what is going on when a Bill started in the Lords and went through the entire Lords proceedings without any mention of Sunday trading. Only on Second Reading in this House was Sunday trading mentioned. In fact, it was so late that Members who oppose changes to Sunday trading did not even know the Bill would consider it.
I spoke to a number of Members on the Government Benches on the day of Second Reading and they had no idea that the issue was in the Bill because they were not in the Chamber to hear the Secretary of State mention it in his opening speech. Had they been, they could have made their opposition clear and raised their concerns but there was no such opportunity for Government Members. That is a great shame.
Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con)
With the leave of the Chair, I beg to move that the Committee be now adjourned.
The Chair
The hon. Gentleman is on his feet and will conclude his speech. He has the Floor.
Bill Esterson
My speech would take us all the way through the lunch period, which may not be popular with Members.
The Chair
I understand that Mr Esterson will have the opportunity to make a second speech if he wants to return to the topic later in the debate. He may wish to avail himself of that opportunity.
Bill Esterson
Thank you. I will take advantage of that.
Ordered, That the debate be now adjourned.—(Stephen Barclay.)