Bill Esterson
Main Page: Bill Esterson (Labour - Sefton Central)Enterprise Bill [ Lords ] (Eighth sitting)
Bill Esterson Excerpts(8 years, 2 months ago)
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The Chair
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
Thank you very much, Sir David. It is wonderful to hear Government Members welcoming me so warmly back to my feet this afternoon. We made early inroads into the topic of Sunday trading. I pointed out the Government’s failure to publish an impact assessment before we got to this stage. It is not the first time in our proceedings that we have been missing important information before discussing amendments or clauses. We are operating without some of the facts, which is regrettable on top of the delays that I referred to before lunch. Many Members were unaware that Sunday trading would be before us. It was first announced on Second Reading that it would be a part of the Bill.
What a way to proceed. We have to wonder what is behind a very late and fundamental change to the Bill. It is the most controversial part of the legislation. It has far-reaching consequences for the business practices and livelihoods of thousands of shopkeepers and their staff, the staff of large retailers, families, communities and faith groups across the country. I spoke on Tuesday about the suspicious neutering of the pub code, as Lord Mendelsohn described the consultation that the Government published on the code.
The way in which the Government have attempted to change Sunday trading is certainly suspicious, but it goes way beyond neutering when describing the impact on smaller retailers, shopkeepers and their families. I suspect that the Churches and others who want to keep Sunday special would say that abandoning the Sunday trading compromise agreed 22 years ago amounts to an all-out assault that goes way beyond the term “neutering”.
Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) (Lab)
My hon. Friend is making an important point. The Churches are very vocal in their campaign to keep Sunday special, but is he aware that a huge number of people of no faith also want to keep Sunday special? They need to be highlighted as much as those who for religious reasons wish to keep the day special.
Bill Esterson
I completely agree. The matter concerns not only people of faith, but everybody in this country. It is important to have one day a week when the pace of life is less hectic so that we are not on a 24/7 treadmill of consumerism and taking every opportunity to buy goods in our high streets and shopping centres. I am sure the Minister will comment that online shopping is available 24/7, but that is another matter that I will return to later.
The Government’s consultation on changes to Sunday trading was held for just two weeks in the summer holiday, although they took five months to publish the results. In the publication, for some reason the Government omitted to tell us how many people were in favour of the changes and how many were not. They told us only that lots of big businesses were, perhaps unsurprisingly, in favour. We were not told the results of all 7,000 responses.
It is important to appreciate the scale of the impact of the proposals. Any regulatory changes to operations in the retail sector will have an enormous knock-on effect on the economy as a whole. A September 2015 report by Oxford Economics found that the sector accounts for 9.2% of all jobs in the UK—more than 3 million people—and that 50,000 small local convenience stores employ 386,000 people. Any regulatory changes will have significant ramifications for the sector as a whole, in particular for convenience stores, small shops, their staff and the local communities they serve.
For a significant proposal that generates such keen debate, a responsible approach would have been to undertake a robust economic analysis, a transparent consultation and honest engagement with interested parties, and to decide upon a dedicated legislative mechanism to deliver reforms on that basis. Sadly, that is not what the Government have done. Extended Sunday trading hours would not produce any more sales and would simply spread existing sales from small stores to large stores and over more hours. Unless the Government are advocating more consumer credit and an increase in the level of personal unsecured debt, how could it be otherwise?
The Oxford Economics study drew two clear conclusions: first, there would be no overall increase in retail spending; and secondly, there would be significant displacement of spending from smaller to larger retailers, damaging those 50,000 convenience stores. The report states that
“devolving Sunday trading decisions to local authorities, and the subsequent liberalisation that can be expected to occur, will have only a small impact on the retail sector as a whole, whether positive or negative. However, the displacement of spending from small to large stores may have an impact on employment patterns within the sector that can be expected to manifest itself in job losses at a local level.”
There would be not only a change in spending, but an impact on employment, so there is no overall economic benefit to offset the significant harm caused by the proposal to employment, small business owners, and shop workers and their families.
I turn to the process that we went through to get to this point in Committee. No amendments, impact assessment or economic analysis were published and still no family test has been released either.
Catherine McKinnell
I am listening carefully to my hon. Friend, and I must say that I am a little baffled about the evidence on which the Government based their decision to change Sunday training hours and where they believe the economic benefit will come from. From any studies or information from the Government that my hon. Friend has read, does he know where the economic benefit will fall?
Bill Esterson
It is a very good question. Without an impact assessment, we are in the dark about where the evidence for the changes comes from and what the evidence is for the economic effect. As I mentioned before, the elements of the consultation that the Government have published mention only the responses from, we presume, a relatively small number of very large businesses, which favour the changes overall, and make no reference to the numbers of people who favoured or opposed the changes. We have limited evidence about what has happened. I have tried to look for some evidence and there are some studies, which I shall come to later.
Parliament should have the opportunity to digest and scrutinise the evidence, put forward by the Government. It is simply unacceptable that the new clauses were dropped in with no notice on Second Reading. The answers to parliamentary questions asking where the impact assessment is were published on Monday. The Minister said that an impact assessment had been carried out and that it would be published, but she did not say when. Perhaps either she or the Minister for Housing and Planning, who has moved the new clause, can tell us later when that impact assessment will be published, although it is bizarre that we are debating the Bill without sight of the results of the impact assessment.
The Minister mentioned Knightsbridge and I mentioned the Harrods clause earlier. There are two high streets that benefit, Oxford Street and Knightsbridge, if they can be described as high streets. They are represented by the New West End Company. However, they are very different from almost any other high street or main shopping area of a high street anywhere else in the country. To base a policy on what happens in Knightsbridge or in Oxford Street really is a very strange way to proceed.
Catherine McKinnell
The Minister for Small Business, Industry and Enterprise, who is not the Minister dealing with this new clause, is chuntering from a sedentary position that the provision is entirely discretionary. Perhaps she does not understand the nature of market forces.
Bill Esterson
The Minister certainly claims that she understands market forces; she does so often.
I have mentioned before that this could be described as a domino clause, because those local authorities that do not implement it may well be influenced by what goes on in neighbouring authorities that do implement it. I guess that is a form of market forces. Perhaps it is the forces between neighbouring local authorities around the country that will, in the end, force everybody to comply and to relax Sunday trading rules for all.
Sadly, the Government’s consultation is an advocacy document for devolving Sunday trading rules. The Government have ducked and dived, parried all the evidence that has been presented to them, and blindly focused on what they want to hear, as they have only quoted selectively from the consultation. We can assume that that is the case, because of the 7,000 responses to the consultation received by the Government, they have focused their analysis on just three groups: large and medium-sized businesses; business representative bodies; and local councils. In other words, they are focusing on the people who stand to gain the most.
Using a very small sample from the 7,000 responses, the Government found what was undoubtedly for them the palatable figure of 76% of respondents supporting devolution in order to make their case, but there was only 76% support among those three groups. The Government have ignored, and not published, the figures that show the concern among small business owners, high streets, shop workers, families and family groups, and, indeed, faith groups. The people who will be affected the most by the change are being completely ignored in this process.
Since the beginning of the year, the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills has published five consultation responses, all of which have included a breakdown of respondents and analysis of their position, and how many responses in total are in favour of a proposal and how many responses in total are opposed to it. That has happened on a range of issues. However, that has not occurred for the consultation on Sunday trading reform. Why is that? It is because the Government know that their proposals are not backed by the majority of the public and the majority of stakeholders.
In making their case for Sunday trading reform, the Government have also used evidence that is laughably out of date to support their case. I will focus on three key pieces of evidence that the Government have used to make their case and to deal with the question that my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North asked earlier, in order to outline why the Government are misguided.
The first is Swedish sales data. The BIS press release announcing the Government response to the consultation of last August proudly stated that a change in Sunday trading resulted in a 5% increase in turnover in Sweden. In order to get that figure and find that 5% increase, the Government went all the way back to Sweden in 1972, when ABBA were formed. I am sure that somebody will be able to think of a suitable ABBA song to describe the appropriateness or otherwise of the way the Government have used that data. [Interruption.] I feel an intervention is coming.
The Minister for Small Business, Industry and Enterprise (Anna Soubry)
Dancing Queen?
Bill Esterson
Speak for yourself. The Government did that to find a 5% increase in turnover from changes to Sunday trading laws.
Sweden in 1972 is clearly not the same as the United Kingdom in 2016. The Government also fail to mention the wider impact after Sunday trading reform in Sweden. For example, small stores were decimated, with their market share dropping from 70% to 19%. That is an almost complete collapse in the sector.
Catherine McKinnell
Another concern about the impact of the changes on small convenience stores might be at a tangent to the debate, but what occurred to me because of the situation in my local area is that post offices are increasingly being located in convenience stores precisely because they are struggling to survive independently on the high street. By putting convenience stores at greater risk, we are also putting our post office services at greater risk. The Minister should bear that in mind.
Bill Esterson
So the Minister should. My hon. Friend must have been reading my speech over my shoulder—which would have been a remarkable achievement given that I am a little bit taller than she is—because I was about to say that the National Federation of SubPostmasters has also expressed its concerns about the impact of Sunday trading reforms on post offices.
We have a network of only 11,500 post offices because most of them are integrated into local convenience stores—the point that my hon. Friend was making—and those host businesses in effect subsidise the post office. A number of convenience stores and the National Federation of SubPostmasters have expressed concerns that as retail trade in their stores declines due to extended Sunday trading for large stores, those post offices will be put at risk.
Catherine McKinnell
To elaborate, I know from personal experience and local feedback that often Sundays out of hours are the only time at which many people use the convenience stores and so become aware that the post office services are available there. The Sunday footfall is important for those convenience stores.
Bill Esterson
That is right. The great British compromise that we have at the moment gives small retailers a one-day-a-week competitive advantage—it is a slight one, because they are not open for the whole day—and helps, as my hon. Friend said, to raise awareness that there is a post office in those convenience stores. Without that one-day advantage, there is bound to be less awareness of the post offices, which will have an impact on their ability to be successful.
I turn to online shopping. Extending Sunday trading hours will not help high streets to compete with online retailers. For some reason, the Government believe, as the Minister told us, that people shop online because of variations in trading hours on Sundays. There is no link in either consumers’ minds or behaviour between early morning and evening restrictions in Sunday opening hours and their use of the internet for shopping. That is supported by polling completed by Populus of 2,008 members of the public. It asked respondents whether they had shopped online during the Christmas period, with two thirds stating they had. Those respondents were asked to say why they had chosen to shop online and, unsurprisingly, none of them referenced Sunday trading hours as a reason.
Ministers continue to remind us that they are not changing the Sunday trading laws but just devolving the decision to local authorities or, as the Minister said, to local leaders. It is not the whole community, but one person in each local authority.
The Minister for Housing and Planning (Brandon Lewis)
Does the hon. Gentleman not trust his leaders—does he not trust his councillors?
Bill Esterson
We will come back to that point.
It is naive to believe that the devolution of the powers will not result in a blanket extension of Sunday trading hours across the country because of the domino effect I mentioned. Polling of local authority chief executives has shown that 45% of local authorities are heavily influenced by the action of neighbouring authorities’ policies and procedures. We are therefore likely to see far longer Sunday opening hours in the majority of areas within a short period, because there will be a domino effect across the country as one council follows the other.
We also know from the planning system that large businesses have slick procedures for lobbying local authorities to secure favourable local policies and new developments. That has resulted in the widespread development of out-of-town stores, which have driven footfall away from traditional town centres and harmed high streets. It will no doubt be the same for Sunday trading policies. The Minister often says that he is serious about supporting high streets; I think he is supposed to be the Minister responsible for high streets.
Bill Esterson
No, that is the responsibility of one of the Minister’s colleagues in the Department for Communities and Local Government.
Catherine McKinnell
My hon. Friend raises an important point in questioning whether the Minister is responsible for high streets. He shakes his head to show that he is not, but it would be interesting to know whether he has spoken to the Minister responsible for the issue about the impact it will have on high streets.
Bill Esterson
The CLG Ministers might not have consulted the rest of the country, published the impact assessment or told us how much opposition there is to the measure, but we can probably assume that they talk within their team.
Brandon Lewis
I will put the hon. Gentleman’s mind at rest. He and the hon. Lady may be referring back to how the previous Labour Government used to work, but in this Conservative Government we do talk together. I used to be the Minister responsible for high streets. The Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones), is now that Minister. Not only have I consulted him, but he has consulted widely, including members of the Future High Streets Forum, who, like him, are positive about this measure for the future of our high streets.
Bill Esterson
Unfortunately, the Minister’s team has not published the results of that wider consultation, which is one point I have been making. If they are serious about giving local people a choice and this not being the decision of just one local leader, why have they not made provisions for local referendums, publication of local impact assessments or extensions to specific areas in their new clause? The current proposal does not provide a real choice for local people—a point supported by Gary Morris, a director at property consultancy WYG, who told Property Week:
“I believe there will be pressure from the out-of-town retailers and supermarkets to open longer. And that won’t necessarily be because they want to; it’ll be because they feel they need to just compete”—
as with local authorities. He goes on:
“I can envisage a scenario whereby out-of-town operators might look for regional disparities to make a case that they should be allowed to open to compete with centres further away with longer hours”.
We know from polling local authority chief executives that that is true: 52% have indicated that they would use the devolution of Sunday trading powers to support out-of-town retailers and supermarkets, not town centres and high streets. Such a change to Sunday trading can only displace trade and harm high streets. The Minister has chosen to ignore those important facts.
Catherine McKinnell
My hon. Friend is making a brilliant speech. I must go back to his reference to Sweden, ABBA and 1972 and put on the record my concern that decision making will become all about money, money, money rather than the wider community concerns on which all planning decisions should be made.
Bill Esterson
I thank my hon. Friend, because that was worth the half-hour wait. That was very good and she is quite right, of course. I will not try to improve on it.
Bill Esterson
And my hon. Friend makes the point brilliantly. It is a very serious point. Of course, the Government would say that what might be called trivial points about local decision making—I do not think that they are at all trivial—mean nothing because, at the end of the day, consumers want change and shop workers want the opportunity to work more hours and earn more money. In fact, the Minister did say that.
Again, the Government are ignoring the facts. In September, research from Populus showed overwhelming support for the existing Sunday trading compromise, with two thirds of the public supporting the existing measures. The majority—61%—agree that Sunday is different from the rest of the week as it enables shared time with family and friends. Only one in eight people thinks that there is not enough time to shop under the current Sunday trading hours. One in eight. We are changing the law to ignore the views of seven in eight. That is remarkable.
Sunday trading laws work for the country. They are an important part of the fabric of our society. Sunday is a communal day of rest when people of faith or no faith can spend time with their family and friends and recharge their batteries for the rest of the week. The same is true for shop workers, the most important stakeholders in this debate whose views are completely ignored by the Government.
Some 91% of shop workers do not want a change in Sunday trading laws. They support the current compromise that allows them to spend a couple of hours a week with their families. Let us not underestimate how important that is for shop workers who already work more weekend hours. Some 63% of people employed in retail are already working overtime, compared with an average of 57% across all sectors. Barely half the people who work in retail report being satisfied with the amount of leisure time they have, suggesting that many experience a squeeze on the time they have available to spend with their partners and children.
Shop workers already face significant pressure to work on Sundays. They currently have the right to opt out of Sunday working if they give written notice to their employer with a notice period of three months. As the Minister told us, the Government have proposed to enhance the opt-out for shop workers in larger stores by reducing the notice period to one month. Staff will be able to opt out of working hours that are additional to their normal Sunday hours, which are averaged over a 12-week period. There is simply no evidence that the existing opt-out rules help to protect Sundays for shop workers, so it is clearly questionable for the Government to suggest that extending the opt-out rules will alleviate pressure on staff in the sector, if and when the legislation is passed and implemented.
The fact is that many shop workers are unable to use the Sunday working opt-out because of pressure from management. To ensure that they can cover all shifts whenever necessary, retail managers request seven-day flexibility from staff. Those who apply for a job invariably have to complete an availability schedule as part of their application. If they do not include availability on Sundays, they are not offered an interview. Employment contracts in retail then stipulate that staff have to give availability across the days and times that they have indicated. If staff ask to opt out of Sunday working, they can be told that they are not fulfilling their contract.
One USDAW member described it as follows:
“Sundays used to be a day of rest. Now my contract says 5 over 7”—
that is, they have to work for any five days in a week. Another said:
“My employer now only takes on part-timers willing to work every weekend.”
In fact, an independent survey in September 2015 of more than 10,000 USDAW members working in large stores found that 58% are already under pressure to work on Sundays when they do not want to. One member responding to the survey said:
“I’ve been told I’d be letting the team down if I don’t work extra on a Sunday. If we refuse a request to work extra then they are extremely unlikely to honour a request for an appointment or for time off”.
Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon, Sir David. I am not sure how many members of the Committee have done shop work, but I certainly remember my two years as a Saturday girl in British Home Stores. That was 30 years ago. Those were the days when there was no Sunday opening, but in the run-up to Christmas there were four Sundays. As a young woman living in recession-hit Coventry in the early ’80s, I certainly relished the chance to work on a Sunday—but that was also because I was getting double pay on a Sunday. On the rare occasions when I worked on a bank holiday, I was getting treble pay.
I think it is a real shame that over the past 30 years the retail industry has gradually eroded workers’ rights and pay and conditions, and is relying ever more on a temporary and part-time workforce, partly so as not to pay the employers’ national insurance contributions. Employers would find that people would be more likely to volunteer to work on Sundays if the pay and incentives were correct.
Bill Esterson
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point and reminding us that there was a time when workers received overtime payments for unsocial hours. Bank holidays were triple time. I have similar experience, so long ago that I cannot quite remember, but I know that overtime payments were as my hon. Friend described, and there has been a fundamental change. I think that my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West will deal with some of those points a bit later.
Lucy Frazer (South East Cambridgeshire) (Con)
It is, again, a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir David. Is there not a flaw in the hon. Gentleman’s argument? If he is suggesting that currently 60% of shop workers complain about working on Sundays, a significant number are already working on Sundays.
Bill Esterson
I have not answered the first intervention yet; I am not entirely sure how to, as it was a statement of the obvious that staff work on Saturdays—and, yes, staff work on Sundays. That is certainly true, but people want the chance to have at least some time on a Sunday. That is the argument, and that is the point being made by shop workers who feel under huge pressure already. That pressure can only grow if the number of hours is increased by the larger stores.
Jo Churchill
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir David. I want to make two points: I started my career in retail, not in the illustrious universities that many here went to. I was manager of the year for the retail group that I started with and then manager of the year for a company called the Body Shop International, in the mid-’80s. That gave me many years of working seven days a week.
People have two choices when they are in business: to make profit, and sustain, or not to make profit. The reason why people do not get paid triple or even double time is that society has changed and businesses could no longer afford to give choice on the high street if they chose to do that. We are beyond the time when that was possible. If the hon. Gentleman truly wants to do what he has argued—sustain the high street—payment must work across the seven days of a week. Fundamentally his argument is flawed, on the basis that if one predicates—
Bill Esterson
I do not think any of us were suggesting going back to the 1980s and the deindustrialisation and destruction of industry that happened under the Thatcher Government. [Hon. Members: “Oh!”] In the current environment, we have an agreed compromise. That is what the Opposition are trying to protect. It is an agreed compromise between small businesses, staff, families and faith groups. It has widespread public support and the only people who seem to want to change it are those with interests in large businesses and those who feel they will have no choice other than to support it because of the domino effect around the country.
USDAW’s research has found that, even in workplaces with trade union reps to support members, many staff are pressured into not using the Sunday opt-out. The argument being made by Opposition Members, trade unions and shop workers is that it is about a level playing field and fairness. The survey by USDAW found that 28% of those who tried to opt out of Sunday working in large stores had been unable to. In small stores, the figure rose to 38%, reflecting the longer opening hours and greater pressure to work. The hon. Member for Bury St Edmunds was referring to smaller stores. That is a difficult reality for the staff as well as for the business owners. The point is to try to balance those two as much as possible.
Overall, for every two staff who are able to use the opt-out, only one is successful. In the vast majority of retail workplaces where there is no union organisation or support, the proportion of staff unable to use the opt-out will be far higher. There is immense pressure on retail staff to work on Sundays. Even in workplaces with trade union reps to support members, over a third of those who try to opt out of Sunday working are unable to, and even more are prevented by pressure from even trying to use the opt-out. Longer Sundays will make the pressure worse, and the changes in the opt-out will not prevent staff from being pressured into working more on Sundays, making them lose even more precious family time.
John Hannett, the general secretary of USDAW, says:
“Many shopworkers find they are unable to use the current Sunday opt-out due to pressure from management and the possible loss of working hours, which most cannot afford. For these reasons the Government’s so-called protections will mean little or nothing in practice.”
The protections for shop workers are not enough to prevent businesses from abusing their dominance to force shop workers to work for longer, and that will be exacerbated under the Government’s proposals.
Church and faith groups are strongly opposed to the Government’s reforms and are equally frustrated by the Government’s consultation process. The Bishop of St Albans, the right reverend Dr Alan Smith, recently said:
“The Government response makes no compelling case for improved economic or social benefits and will do nothing to dissuade those who are concerned that the policy will damage family and community life…Most fundamentally the consultation response neglects to recognise the social value of a shared day for community and family life. In a world of increasing commodification, the space for shared time and activities, central to human flourishing is becoming ever more rare. Increased Sunday opening hours will only exacerbate this trend. I hope the Government will reflect and think again.”
I am sure the strength of feeling from church and faith groups will be replicated in the other place, where the Enterprise Bill started without the Sunday trading proposals included. It was the Enterprise Bill. It was not the Enterprise and Sunday Trading Bill, which it will become after the amendment goes through. The Lords did not have time to discuss Sunday trading or to examine it in detail in Grand Committee or on Report. This is the first time it is being debated. It is important to remember that this is a Lords Bill and the first time we are debating this matter is in the Commons.
The Government have not made a credible case, economically or socially, for a change to Sunday trading laws, so much so that the Government consultation process has used outdated and misrepresented data to form a credible case for reform. Consumers, small businesses, large businesses, high streets, shop workers and faith groups support the compromise we have now. A change is not wanted or needed. The Government’s own Back Benchers are divided on the issue and, as such, the Government have chosen to award the Bill the smallest amount of time for scrutiny in Parliament. The Government are running scared from debating Sunday trading, which is why it was left so late. They are hiding behind the false devolution argument to deliver complete liberalisation by the back door and pursue their ideological ambitions over workable public policy. I hope that on Report, Government Members can persuade Ministers that it is a mistake and that they should rethink, go back to the drawing board and withdraw the proposal.
Catherine McKinnell
The Minister says that it is not compulsory, but she seems to misunderstand completely the nature of market forces and retail competition.
Catherine McKinnell
As my hon. Friend says, perhaps the Minister has never played dominoes.
Brandon Lewis
If the hon. Lady looks at Hansard this evening, she will find that I have been responding to a lot of the queries of Opposition Members, specifically hers. Only a few seconds ago I said specifically on the family-friendly test that the Bill will give families more flexibility and opportunity on how they choose to spend their time on a Sunday. It will be a big advantage for families. I am sure that if it were not, we would have had hon. Members from Scotland jumping up to explain how Sunday trading has ruined family life in Scotland, a religious and family-focused country. I love spending time there and I have not heard that. I suspect that we will find that Scotland is a very good place to bring up a family, despite the fact that Scottish communities have freedom on Sunday trading. We want to give the opportunity to enjoy that same freedom to communities in this country.
Bill Esterson
In a similar vein, a number of us have mentioned the Prime Minister’s 20 April promise through his spokeswoman, before the general election, that there were no plans to change the Sunday trading laws in England and Wales. Will the Minister tell us when the Prime Minister changed his mind, or was it only a meaningless pre-election promise intended to get him through the last two weeks of the general election campaign?
Brandon Lewis
The hon. Gentleman is choosing to ignore the fact that since then there has been a general election, an entirely new Parliament and a Conservative Government, which is a good thing for our country. In 2015 the Prime Minister made it very clear at the Dispatch Box in this very House during Prime Minister’s Question Time that he felt it was time to review Sunday trading laws on the basis that they are outdated and were passed pre-internet.
Devolving the powers will enable local leaders, who are locally accountable, to decide for themselves what the right approach is to extending Sunday trading hours, reflecting local preferences, shopping habits and local economic conditions. It will provide consumers, businesses and shop workers with greater choice, opportunity and convenience. It will empower local leaders to support bricks and mortar shops in their local high streets and town centres, helping them to compete with the internet retailers that operate 24 hours a day, seven days a week and deliver on Sundays, too.
Bill Esterson
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
We debated some elements of the Groceries Code Adjudicator as part of our lengthy discussions about the creation of the small business commissioner a long time ago—two and a bit weeks ago, at the start of our proceedings. There is a great deal of overlap in the nature and aims of the adjudicator and the commissioner. Both were created to give a voice to smaller suppliers in their dealings with larger companies and both were designed to address the imbalance in those relationships.
New clause 15 seeks to acknowledge that there will be considerable concern about the Groceries Code Adjudicator, which was set up in 2013, and the small business commissioner, when it is established, presumably later this year, and the extent of their powers, the breadth of their remit and the teeth they have to deliver in their sectors. I appreciate that the general review of the Groceries Code Adjudicator is expected this year. We are asking in the new clause for a specific investigation of the adjudicator’s role, which is particularly relevant to the Bill because of the relationship with the small business commissioner. The review we are asking for is to learn from the first years of the Groceries Code Adjudicator so that we can apply those lessons to the post of the small business commissioner. The new clause is a simple way of saying that we did not get it quite right in 2013 and that we have an opportunity to learn valuable lessons now. We ought to ensure that those lessons are taken on board at the appropriate stage, which is in this Bill.
On confidentiality, we have said repeatedly, here and in the Lords, that if small businesses complain about big businesses that are their customers, they risk damaging their business relationships. Now, the Groceries Code Adjudicator has said that a lack of trust is a barrier to suppliers who might have complaints. Lord Mendelsohn cited that as a key area of concern. Without robust provisions for confidentiality and without learning from the experience of the Groceries Code Adjudicator, we will be doomed to repeat those deficiencies with the small business commissioner.
When it comes to providing greater powers for the commissioner, we can learn lessons from the Groceries Code Adjudicator. In January 2015, the then coalition Government announced that they would give the Groceries Code Adjudicator the ability to fine supermarkets 1% of their annual turnover for serious breaches of the grocery code. This was a recognition that the adjudicator needed to back up their influence with greater powers, but it took almost two years after the creation of the post to ensure that those powers were available. The new clause would avoid repeating that delay as we create the post of the small business commissioner. It would ensure that the commissioner’s office has the powers needed to do the job from day one by learning from the experience of the Groceries Code Adjudicator.
When the position of Groceries Code Adjudicator was created, concerns were raised about its ability to fulfil the Government’s ambitions for it, because it was given too few staff and resources to deliver effective change. Let us remember that the Groceries Code Adjudicator works only three days a week and has only five staff, who are responsible for 7,000 direct suppliers and a further 300,000 indirect suppliers. As we have pointed out, it is clear from the Australian model that this could well be a cause of problems in the UK. The Groceries Code Adjudicator is another reference point from which we can learn, as she is an adjudicator working part-time with five staff responsible for so many suppliers. With the small business commissioner, we are looking at a similarly small team taking responsibility for an estimated 390,000 disputes from 70,000 businesses.
We had an impact assessment for the creation of the small business commissioner. It is a shame, is it not, that we did not have one for Sunday trading. The impact assessment for the small business commissioner estimated that the commissioner’s team would deal with only 500 complaints out of the estimated 390,000 disputes every year. From the experience and comments of the Groceries Code Adjudicator, we know that she is understaffed. She has made it clear that she was given a small office and spends much of her time just explaining what she can and cannot do, and is left with little time to actually deliver. That is why there has been only one investigation in two years, as good as that investigation clearly was. She has made it clear that she cannot cover the suppliers in the supply chain.
As it stands, we will be putting more pressure on the small business commissioner, because the volume of potential activity is even greater. We need to learn the lessons and that is what the new clause is about. If the Government will not change the Bill, we should at least try to speed up the process of evolving the role to meet the challenges that the small business commissioner will face. I hope the Government will learn and apply the lessons from the first years of the Groceries Code Adjudicator. Throughout the process, we have called for the remit of the small business commissioner to be broadened and for the commissioner to have the resources at his or her disposal to fulfil the ambitions that we all have for the post. We want the commissioner to be given the powers to deliver real change to the crippling culture of late payments and poor business practice.
We have repeatedly used the example of the Australian small business commissioner, because it is a good model and we stand to learn a good deal from it. New clause 15 is an attempt to make sure that the powers that we believe ought to be put in place now are at least fast-tracked for the small business commissioner, by keeping a weather eye on and learning from the experience of the Groceries Code Adjudicator.
Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir David, in this last sitting.
My thoughts are broadly in line with those of the hon. Member for Sefton Central. As we know, this Bill introduces the small business commissioner, which obviously has cross-party support. Amendments have been tabled that we thought might give the office of the small business commissioner more teeth, to allow it to work more efficiently on behalf of those it will represent. Obviously the amendments have not been accepted today, but hopefully the Government will consider that in future.
In thinking about the office of the small business commissioner, it certainly makes sense to think about the office of the Groceries Code Adjudicator. Given that this is a wide-ranging Bill anyway, it makes sense to use it as an opportunity to review the powers and purpose of the GCA and to learn from its short history.
When the GCA was created in 2013, my SNP colleagues gave their support at that time, but my hon. Friend the Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) urged the Government to give the GCA enough power to address two key issues that she raised then. First, she highlighted the underlying problems caused by the concentration of power in the grocery supply chain due to the dominance of a handful of large supermarkets. We are well aware of the recent issue of Tesco breaking the code of practice and abusing its market position to prioritise its cash flow and finances over those of their suppliers. It was often excessively late with its payments. Tesco did that, but what was the outcome of the case? Yes, Tesco was named and shamed, which was good—the matter has been highlighted and Tesco has said it will not do it again—but the GCA, Christine Tacon, was unable to impose a fine, because she was only given the power to impose fines in 2015, two years after the establishment of her office.
The second issue that my hon. Friend highlighted was about sustainable food production and the ability of non-direct suppliers to supermarkets to make complaints that the GCA can investigate and follow through on. Recently we have seen evidence that this issue is rearing its head again, with the dairy farmers and the price they receive for milk. A stronger GCA may have been able to intervene and take greater action in support of the farmers or those at the end of a supply chain, who we need to survive in order to get the end product, provide local employment and have a greener product as a result of a smaller carbon footprint. Also, my hon. Friend the Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk (Calum Kerr) has called for the GCA to have greater powers over labelling, to make the supply chain from source to product much clearer.
Overall, the position of the GCA is welcome, but there are still imperfections. The new clause could allow some of them to be smoothed out. I support the new clause and certainly agree with the principle behind it.
Anna Soubry
It is obviously a pleasure, Sir David, to serve under your chairmanship in our final sitting.
In short, the Government are already committed to reviewing the GCA after next month. That commitment is in the Groceries Code Adjudicator Act 2013, so this very review is going to happen; it is in statute. Yes, we are looking at the terms of reference. We are preparing them to make sure they include all the things we want the review to look at, so we are looking at consideration of the remit and the powers of the GCA being part of that review.
The review will cover the period up to 31 March, so we will begin the public consultation shortly after that date, as part of the review, providing an opportunity for everyone to input their views. As I say, it is all there already in the 2013 Act. The new clause is just not necessary, because all these points are covered already.
Bill Esterson
I am grateful to the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun for his reminder of some of the issues, challenges and experiences of those who have sought help from the GCA in the last two years, and of the need for greater support and resource for the office of the GCA.
The reason for the new clause was to draw the parallels between the adjudicator and the commissioner. I acknowledged in my opening remarks that the review was already taking place, but it is important to have debates such as this to get the Minister on the record, as we have done a few times in Committee, and she has now made clear what will happen.