Catherine McKinnell
Main Page: Catherine McKinnell (Labour - Newcastle upon Tyne North)Enterprise Bill [ Lords ] (Eighth sitting)
Catherine McKinnell Excerpts(8 years, 9 months ago)
Public Bill CommitteesRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
Thank you very much, Sir David. It is wonderful to hear Government Members welcoming me so warmly back to my feet this afternoon. We made early inroads into the topic of Sunday trading. I pointed out the Government’s failure to publish an impact assessment before we got to this stage. It is not the first time in our proceedings that we have been missing important information before discussing amendments or clauses. We are operating without some of the facts, which is regrettable on top of the delays that I referred to before lunch. Many Members were unaware that Sunday trading would be before us. It was first announced on Second Reading that it would be a part of the Bill.
What a way to proceed. We have to wonder what is behind a very late and fundamental change to the Bill. It is the most controversial part of the legislation. It has far-reaching consequences for the business practices and livelihoods of thousands of shopkeepers and their staff, the staff of large retailers, families, communities and faith groups across the country. I spoke on Tuesday about the suspicious neutering of the pub code, as Lord Mendelsohn described the consultation that the Government published on the code.
The way in which the Government have attempted to change Sunday trading is certainly suspicious, but it goes way beyond neutering when describing the impact on smaller retailers, shopkeepers and their families. I suspect that the Churches and others who want to keep Sunday special would say that abandoning the Sunday trading compromise agreed 22 years ago amounts to an all-out assault that goes way beyond the term “neutering”.
Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) (Lab)
My hon. Friend is making an important point. The Churches are very vocal in their campaign to keep Sunday special, but is he aware that a huge number of people of no faith also want to keep Sunday special? They need to be highlighted as much as those who for religious reasons wish to keep the day special.
Bill Esterson
I completely agree. The matter concerns not only people of faith, but everybody in this country. It is important to have one day a week when the pace of life is less hectic so that we are not on a 24/7 treadmill of consumerism and taking every opportunity to buy goods in our high streets and shopping centres. I am sure the Minister will comment that online shopping is available 24/7, but that is another matter that I will return to later.
The Government’s consultation on changes to Sunday trading was held for just two weeks in the summer holiday, although they took five months to publish the results. In the publication, for some reason the Government omitted to tell us how many people were in favour of the changes and how many were not. They told us only that lots of big businesses were, perhaps unsurprisingly, in favour. We were not told the results of all 7,000 responses.
It is important to appreciate the scale of the impact of the proposals. Any regulatory changes to operations in the retail sector will have an enormous knock-on effect on the economy as a whole. A September 2015 report by Oxford Economics found that the sector accounts for 9.2% of all jobs in the UK—more than 3 million people—and that 50,000 small local convenience stores employ 386,000 people. Any regulatory changes will have significant ramifications for the sector as a whole, in particular for convenience stores, small shops, their staff and the local communities they serve.
For a significant proposal that generates such keen debate, a responsible approach would have been to undertake a robust economic analysis, a transparent consultation and honest engagement with interested parties, and to decide upon a dedicated legislative mechanism to deliver reforms on that basis. Sadly, that is not what the Government have done. Extended Sunday trading hours would not produce any more sales and would simply spread existing sales from small stores to large stores and over more hours. Unless the Government are advocating more consumer credit and an increase in the level of personal unsecured debt, how could it be otherwise?
The Oxford Economics study drew two clear conclusions: first, there would be no overall increase in retail spending; and secondly, there would be significant displacement of spending from smaller to larger retailers, damaging those 50,000 convenience stores. The report states that
“devolving Sunday trading decisions to local authorities, and the subsequent liberalisation that can be expected to occur, will have only a small impact on the retail sector as a whole, whether positive or negative. However, the displacement of spending from small to large stores may have an impact on employment patterns within the sector that can be expected to manifest itself in job losses at a local level.”
There would be not only a change in spending, but an impact on employment, so there is no overall economic benefit to offset the significant harm caused by the proposal to employment, small business owners, and shop workers and their families.
I turn to the process that we went through to get to this point in Committee. No amendments, impact assessment or economic analysis were published and still no family test has been released either.
Catherine McKinnell
I am listening carefully to my hon. Friend, and I must say that I am a little baffled about the evidence on which the Government based their decision to change Sunday training hours and where they believe the economic benefit will come from. From any studies or information from the Government that my hon. Friend has read, does he know where the economic benefit will fall?
Bill Esterson
It is a very good question. Without an impact assessment, we are in the dark about where the evidence for the changes comes from and what the evidence is for the economic effect. As I mentioned before, the elements of the consultation that the Government have published mention only the responses from, we presume, a relatively small number of very large businesses, which favour the changes overall, and make no reference to the numbers of people who favoured or opposed the changes. We have limited evidence about what has happened. I have tried to look for some evidence and there are some studies, which I shall come to later.
Parliament should have the opportunity to digest and scrutinise the evidence, put forward by the Government. It is simply unacceptable that the new clauses were dropped in with no notice on Second Reading. The answers to parliamentary questions asking where the impact assessment is were published on Monday. The Minister said that an impact assessment had been carried out and that it would be published, but she did not say when. Perhaps either she or the Minister for Housing and Planning, who has moved the new clause, can tell us later when that impact assessment will be published, although it is bizarre that we are debating the Bill without sight of the results of the impact assessment.
The Minister mentioned Knightsbridge and I mentioned the Harrods clause earlier. There are two high streets that benefit, Oxford Street and Knightsbridge, if they can be described as high streets. They are represented by the New West End Company. However, they are very different from almost any other high street or main shopping area of a high street anywhere else in the country. To base a policy on what happens in Knightsbridge or in Oxford Street really is a very strange way to proceed.
Catherine McKinnell
The Minister for Small Business, Industry and Enterprise, who is not the Minister dealing with this new clause, is chuntering from a sedentary position that the provision is entirely discretionary. Perhaps she does not understand the nature of market forces.
Bill Esterson
The Minister certainly claims that she understands market forces; she does so often.
I have mentioned before that this could be described as a domino clause, because those local authorities that do not implement it may well be influenced by what goes on in neighbouring authorities that do implement it. I guess that is a form of market forces. Perhaps it is the forces between neighbouring local authorities around the country that will, in the end, force everybody to comply and to relax Sunday trading rules for all.
Sadly, the Government’s consultation is an advocacy document for devolving Sunday trading rules. The Government have ducked and dived, parried all the evidence that has been presented to them, and blindly focused on what they want to hear, as they have only quoted selectively from the consultation. We can assume that that is the case, because of the 7,000 responses to the consultation received by the Government, they have focused their analysis on just three groups: large and medium-sized businesses; business representative bodies; and local councils. In other words, they are focusing on the people who stand to gain the most.
Using a very small sample from the 7,000 responses, the Government found what was undoubtedly for them the palatable figure of 76% of respondents supporting devolution in order to make their case, but there was only 76% support among those three groups. The Government have ignored, and not published, the figures that show the concern among small business owners, high streets, shop workers, families and family groups, and, indeed, faith groups. The people who will be affected the most by the change are being completely ignored in this process.
Since the beginning of the year, the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills has published five consultation responses, all of which have included a breakdown of respondents and analysis of their position, and how many responses in total are in favour of a proposal and how many responses in total are opposed to it. That has happened on a range of issues. However, that has not occurred for the consultation on Sunday trading reform. Why is that? It is because the Government know that their proposals are not backed by the majority of the public and the majority of stakeholders.
In making their case for Sunday trading reform, the Government have also used evidence that is laughably out of date to support their case. I will focus on three key pieces of evidence that the Government have used to make their case and to deal with the question that my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North asked earlier, in order to outline why the Government are misguided.
The first is Swedish sales data. The BIS press release announcing the Government response to the consultation of last August proudly stated that a change in Sunday trading resulted in a 5% increase in turnover in Sweden. In order to get that figure and find that 5% increase, the Government went all the way back to Sweden in 1972, when ABBA were formed. I am sure that somebody will be able to think of a suitable ABBA song to describe the appropriateness or otherwise of the way the Government have used that data. [Interruption.] I feel an intervention is coming.
Catherine McKinnell
Another concern about the impact of the changes on small convenience stores might be at a tangent to the debate, but what occurred to me because of the situation in my local area is that post offices are increasingly being located in convenience stores precisely because they are struggling to survive independently on the high street. By putting convenience stores at greater risk, we are also putting our post office services at greater risk. The Minister should bear that in mind.
Bill Esterson
So the Minister should. My hon. Friend must have been reading my speech over my shoulder—which would have been a remarkable achievement given that I am a little bit taller than she is—because I was about to say that the National Federation of SubPostmasters has also expressed its concerns about the impact of Sunday trading reforms on post offices.
We have a network of only 11,500 post offices because most of them are integrated into local convenience stores—the point that my hon. Friend was making—and those host businesses in effect subsidise the post office. A number of convenience stores and the National Federation of SubPostmasters have expressed concerns that as retail trade in their stores declines due to extended Sunday trading for large stores, those post offices will be put at risk.
Catherine McKinnell
To elaborate, I know from personal experience and local feedback that often Sundays out of hours are the only time at which many people use the convenience stores and so become aware that the post office services are available there. The Sunday footfall is important for those convenience stores.
Bill Esterson
That is right. The great British compromise that we have at the moment gives small retailers a one-day-a-week competitive advantage—it is a slight one, because they are not open for the whole day—and helps, as my hon. Friend said, to raise awareness that there is a post office in those convenience stores. Without that one-day advantage, there is bound to be less awareness of the post offices, which will have an impact on their ability to be successful.
I turn to online shopping. Extending Sunday trading hours will not help high streets to compete with online retailers. For some reason, the Government believe, as the Minister told us, that people shop online because of variations in trading hours on Sundays. There is no link in either consumers’ minds or behaviour between early morning and evening restrictions in Sunday opening hours and their use of the internet for shopping. That is supported by polling completed by Populus of 2,008 members of the public. It asked respondents whether they had shopped online during the Christmas period, with two thirds stating they had. Those respondents were asked to say why they had chosen to shop online and, unsurprisingly, none of them referenced Sunday trading hours as a reason.
Ministers continue to remind us that they are not changing the Sunday trading laws but just devolving the decision to local authorities or, as the Minister said, to local leaders. It is not the whole community, but one person in each local authority.
Bill Esterson
No, that is the responsibility of one of the Minister’s colleagues in the Department for Communities and Local Government.
Catherine McKinnell
My hon. Friend raises an important point in questioning whether the Minister is responsible for high streets. He shakes his head to show that he is not, but it would be interesting to know whether he has spoken to the Minister responsible for the issue about the impact it will have on high streets.
Bill Esterson
The CLG Ministers might not have consulted the rest of the country, published the impact assessment or told us how much opposition there is to the measure, but we can probably assume that they talk within their team.
Catherine McKinnell
My hon. Friend is making a brilliant speech. I must go back to his reference to Sweden, ABBA and 1972 and put on the record my concern that decision making will become all about money, money, money rather than the wider community concerns on which all planning decisions should be made.
Bill Esterson
I thank my hon. Friend, because that was worth the half-hour wait. That was very good and she is quite right, of course. I will not try to improve on it.
Bill Esterson
And my hon. Friend makes the point brilliantly. It is a very serious point. Of course, the Government would say that what might be called trivial points about local decision making—I do not think that they are at all trivial—mean nothing because, at the end of the day, consumers want change and shop workers want the opportunity to work more hours and earn more money. In fact, the Minister did say that.
Again, the Government are ignoring the facts. In September, research from Populus showed overwhelming support for the existing Sunday trading compromise, with two thirds of the public supporting the existing measures. The majority—61%—agree that Sunday is different from the rest of the week as it enables shared time with family and friends. Only one in eight people thinks that there is not enough time to shop under the current Sunday trading hours. One in eight. We are changing the law to ignore the views of seven in eight. That is remarkable.
Sunday trading laws work for the country. They are an important part of the fabric of our society. Sunday is a communal day of rest when people of faith or no faith can spend time with their family and friends and recharge their batteries for the rest of the week. The same is true for shop workers, the most important stakeholders in this debate whose views are completely ignored by the Government.
Some 91% of shop workers do not want a change in Sunday trading laws. They support the current compromise that allows them to spend a couple of hours a week with their families. Let us not underestimate how important that is for shop workers who already work more weekend hours. Some 63% of people employed in retail are already working overtime, compared with an average of 57% across all sectors. Barely half the people who work in retail report being satisfied with the amount of leisure time they have, suggesting that many experience a squeeze on the time they have available to spend with their partners and children.
Shop workers already face significant pressure to work on Sundays. They currently have the right to opt out of Sunday working if they give written notice to their employer with a notice period of three months. As the Minister told us, the Government have proposed to enhance the opt-out for shop workers in larger stores by reducing the notice period to one month. Staff will be able to opt out of working hours that are additional to their normal Sunday hours, which are averaged over a 12-week period. There is simply no evidence that the existing opt-out rules help to protect Sundays for shop workers, so it is clearly questionable for the Government to suggest that extending the opt-out rules will alleviate pressure on staff in the sector, if and when the legislation is passed and implemented.
The fact is that many shop workers are unable to use the Sunday working opt-out because of pressure from management. To ensure that they can cover all shifts whenever necessary, retail managers request seven-day flexibility from staff. Those who apply for a job invariably have to complete an availability schedule as part of their application. If they do not include availability on Sundays, they are not offered an interview. Employment contracts in retail then stipulate that staff have to give availability across the days and times that they have indicated. If staff ask to opt out of Sunday working, they can be told that they are not fulfilling their contract.
One USDAW member described it as follows:
“Sundays used to be a day of rest. Now my contract says 5 over 7”—
that is, they have to work for any five days in a week. Another said:
“My employer now only takes on part-timers willing to work every weekend.”
In fact, an independent survey in September 2015 of more than 10,000 USDAW members working in large stores found that 58% are already under pressure to work on Sundays when they do not want to. One member responding to the survey said:
“I’ve been told I’d be letting the team down if I don’t work extra on a Sunday. If we refuse a request to work extra then they are extremely unlikely to honour a request for an appointment or for time off”.
Catherine McKinnell
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir David. I am keen to add my voice to those who share deep concern about both the substance of the changes and how they have been introduced by the Government. I do so on behalf of shop workers in my constituency and across the country who are interested in the issue, small businesses and convenience stores in my constituency and across the country and the large number of people who, whether due to religious faith or otherwise, feel strongly that Sunday should be kept as a special day for faith, community or cultural reasons.
It is important to put it on record that although I speak on behalf of a wide range of people, I have a personal interest in the issue in that my husband works in retail, and the changes will have a direct impact on my family. I wanted to declare that interest. It is clearly not financial, but although I am not speaking about my personal experience, it informs my understanding of the impact that the changes will have, particularly on shop workers and communities throughout the country. I hope that it helps inform the debate as well.
There is a big question remaining in my mind, having heard the Minister introduce the proposals and my hon. Friend the shadow Minister make a strong speech setting out clearly why the Government have not made the case for the changes. I genuinely cannot understand why the Government are introducing them, why they are necessary and why they think that they are a good idea. We have a more than 20-year-old compromise on the issue, and the overwhelming consensus is that the public support the current arrangements. A recent Populus poll showed that 67% of the public, or two thirds, support the current rules about trading hours on a Sunday. Another poll by Ipsos MORI back in 2012 found that more than half the public actively oppose any extension to the Sunday trading hours. There is a clear level of consensus about the trading hours that the balance is about right.
The Government argue that this is about localism and giving local areas the opportunity to grow, create more jobs, be more competitive in an increasingly online world and reinvigorate high streets, but the truth is that without any proper consultation or results from that consultation published by the Government, the evidence available to us on whether those claims and intentions stack up shows that it will achieve quite the opposite.
Even large retailers, which the Government claim will benefit from the changes, share many of the concerns. Asda, for example, has admitted that it hopes that the changes to the Sunday trading hours will be dropped altogether, because it has concerns about the workability of the proposals. Other retailers worry whether there will be enough of an uplift in demand to justify the extra costs incurred through longer opening hours. My hon. Friend the shadow Minister clearly outlined the question about the cost-benefit analysis of extending hours for the same amount of trade.
Perhaps the biggest worry for large retailers is how they will cope with the complexity of hundreds of different rules for different stores throughout the country about when and for how long they can open on Sundays. One big supermarket group recently told The Times:
“This is all becoming more and more opaque. The government says it is trying to cut red tape but now it wants to give local councils this subjective ability to pick and choose which areas can have extended trading, and who will benefit from that. It all seems a bit of a shambles…and the data the government is using to support its argument is from 2006 before the recession.”
Surely the new clause flies in the face of the Government’s deregulation agenda, which we considered earlier. Will the Minister clarify whether the Government have undertaken an impact assessment, and whether they will publish it, on how the new clause will affect the Government’s business impact target, which requires Ministers to consider the economic impact of statutory provisions on businesses?
The Government claimed that this change will boost high street footfall, but what of the economic impact on businesses that will have to comply with tens, if not hundreds, of different regulations and Sunday trading restrictions? Far from cutting red tape for businesses, devolving powers over Sunday trading will do the opposite. Businesses large and small agree, and have expressed their concerns about that.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Sefton Central said, the best and only test we have of the effect of extending Sunday trading hours is their temporary relaxation during the 2012 Olympics. He talked about the difference between the retail sales in July, August and September, when that temporary relaxation was in force, and those of the earlier months of May and June, when the restrictions remained in place. ONS figures show that the level across all of those months was the same as the previous year, which calls into question the claim that extending Sunday trading hours will bring an increase in trade. It will, however, increase retailers’ costs.
Although the case for extending Sunday trading hours based on the economic impact on businesses is far from certain, it will have a big impact on small shops and convenience stores. The London Olympics give a useful indication of the impact that a permanent relaxation might have on small businesses and convenience stores, which play a vital role in all of our communities not only by providing post office services, which we have discussed, but by being available as a convenience—hence the name.
My hon. Friend referred to the Oxford Economics study that found that, as a result of the temporary relaxation during the Olympics, convenience stores within 1 mile of a supermarket lost £1,300, or 3.4% of their weekly sales. That evidence is very different to anything the Government have cited in support of the changes. I would be surprised if hon. Members on both sides of the House are willing to support their wish and hope—I have a dream, to go back to the Abba bingo—over the clear evidence from past experience that shows that the change will damage convenience stores and could cost the sector up to 6,500 jobs, far outweighing any projections for the jobs that may be created in the larger stores.
Mary Creagh
My hon. Friend made an interesting point earlier—I have been reflecting on it during her speech—about the risks to the retail sector, and in particular to the large stores. The sector does not have a unanimous opinion on this issue. A risk that has been raised is that if one store opens, causing every other store to feel that they have to do the same, they will end up becoming less profitable because there will not be enough footfall. Perhaps people in Wakefield do not want to go shopping or whatever else at 9 o’clock on a Sunday morning. They might be having a well-deserved lie-in or taking the dog for a walk.
Catherine McKinnell
Indeed. My hon. Friend makes an important point. [Interruption.] The Minister from a sedentary position keeps repeating the mantra that it is not obligatory. Is that what she is saying?
Catherine McKinnell
The Minister says that it is not compulsory, but she seems to misunderstand completely the nature of market forces and retail competition.
Catherine McKinnell
As my hon. Friend says, perhaps the Minister has never played dominoes.
Catherine McKinnell
I will happily give way to the hon. Lady, who has already given us a lecture on market forces. That would be very helpful.
Jo Churchill
Yes, I suppose it is about market forces again. Tesco convenience stores in places where there has been a lack of demand have dropped their hours back down, which indicates that, actually, it is not compulsory; it is up to the business to ensure that it optimises—[Hon. Members: “So why change the system?”] So larger ones have the choice. It is about choice.
Catherine McKinnell
I appreciate what the hon. Lady says, but the Government have a role and a responsibility to balance the interests of communities, the business community, local authorities and local planning decisions, which is where the debate was had 22 years ago when a compromise was struck. That compromise has worked and is sensible, and she has pointed out that some retailers have decided to drop back their hours where there is not enough demand. The difficulty with fully liberalising the retail legislation in this way is that it removes all of the current compromise that allows for that flexibility. Indeed, she makes the point that the current laws are working, and the Government have not submitted any evidence to justify why they need to change the system.
The Federation of Small Businesses and the Association of Convenience Stores, both significant voices for small businesses, are opposed to the measures. Small businesses are the backbone of the UK’s economy, making up 99% of the 5.2 million businesses in the country and employing more than 14 million people. Their voice should be heard, and the restrictions on Sunday trading play a vital role in supporting and sustaining our small businesses. Frankly, I am shocked that the Government seem to dismiss the concerns of small businesses so out of hand when they claim to be champions of small business, but we know that is not the case, and this proves it.
My final point is on the tens of thousands of people who work in the retail sector on Sundays for large retailers and who take comfort from the current arrangements, which enable them to go out to earn a living while still getting some time off with their family on a Sunday and retaining a semblance of a work-life balance. Surely the Minister can recognise that the new clause merely risks heaping more pressure on low-paid retail workers, for whom the Sunday restrictions are considered a fundamental right and protection. It is telling that his contribution to the debate so far was entirely focused on those workers being able to enforce those rights. A measure proposed by the Government that is focused entirely on how individuals and workers can enforce those rights highlights the issue and the difficult situation in which the Government are deliberately putting those workers.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
Would it be useful if the Minister clarified that point? We know the measure is controversial, and we will be returning to it on Report; lots of Government Members are also not happy with it. Even if the measures do not go ahead, will the enhanced workers’ rights be delivered by the Government because they think it is the right thing to do?
Catherine McKinnell
My hon. Friend makes an important point, and it would be useful to hear from the Minister that, even if the Sunday trading laws do not go ahead—the Minister should take on board the deep concerns on both sides of the House about the Sunday trading restrictions—he will still commit to the additional rights for workers to enforce the Sunday trading restrictions in their workplace.
Does the Minister recognise the concerns raised about work-life balance? He should address that issue, because it is a well-known aspiration of the Prime Minister to make the UK the most family-friendly country in Europe. Indeed, in 2014 he announced, to much fanfare, his family test, which says that
“every single domestic policy that government comes up with will be examined for its impact on the family… The reality is that in the past the family just hasn’t been central to the way government thinks. So you get a whole load of policy decisions which take no account of the family and sometimes make…things worse.”
I could not agree more. This has just come into my head, and I cannot resist sharing it with the Committee: in the light of the exchange at Prime Minister’s questions yesterday between the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition, does your mother know?
Given new clause 21, under which thousands of retail staff face working longer hours on Sunday—a day when their children are not at school and that is often reserved for family and friends—what will happen to the Prime Minister’s aspiration? Has the family test been carried out and, if so, why has the result not been published?
Caroline Flint
No. I am going to finish my point before I take another intervention. I do not think a change to Sunday hours is necessary, and there is no evidence for it. We certainly do not have the impact assessment with the evidence to support it. What is shabby about this whole debate is that none of this stuff was in the Bill on Second Reading. Nevertheless, Ministers spent an inordinate amount of time trying to explain what the proposal was all about and why it should go ahead. [Interruption.]
Catherine McKinnell
My right hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. From a sedentary position, in response to the important point she makes about small shops and other businesses that can take advantage of the existing Sunday arrangements, the Minister asks why that should not be available for larger stores. Does she share my concern that the Government just do not get it?
Caroline Flint
I do not think that they get it. We already have a flexible system that gives ample time for people to shop on a Sunday if they so wish, but within a framework that tries to make Sunday different from every other day of the week. Further extension of Sunday trading will not only put huge pressure on people who are currently working in large stores, 35% of whom would like to work shorter hours than they currently are, but undermine the fabric of what a Sunday should be about and the opportunity for families to be together.
I am a vice chair of the all-party group on women and work. Earlier this week we were discussing the big problems of childcare—and that was just from Monday to Friday, let alone the impact of having to find more childcare support on a Sunday. In the UK there are already too many families, some of whom I know and have met, in which the parents are working shifts to cover their own childcare because they cannot afford to pay for it or get it at a time that suits them. I do not want to be part of adding to the problems of those families.
Brandon Lewis
We have had a long debate and some interesting contributions. It has been interesting to hear Opposition Members complain that the rules they put in place to protect workers are not working. That is one of the reasons why there is a package of options. I wonder whether they fully understand how the high street works, let alone whether they have actually fully read the new clause and schedule and understand how they knit together. The extra protections improve accessibility and are an integral part of the package. They would not be needed if we were not going forward. However, I appreciate Opposition Members’ recognition that the way things were done under Labour simply was not good enough.
In some instances, hon. Members, and particularly the hon. Member for Sefton Central, were missing the point. We are looking at devolving power to local areas. Just to correct him, I do not know how the Labour party works but certainly in Conservative councils, I would not think we have many leaders who believe that they are the sole decision maker. They work on a democratic basis where all councillors have their say, but that might be why we also have Labour councils asking for this power. As well as Manchester and Nottingham, more than 150 council leaders are calling for this devolved power. As I have said in other places around this House when discussing other legislation, I trust local people to make the right decisions for their areas, and I hope that Labour Members would as well.
Catherine McKinnell
It is incredibly frustrating to listen to the Minister talk about empowering local communities when he knows full well that he is putting local authorities up and down the country in an invidious position over central Government funding cuts. It is therefore no surprise that local authorities will do anything to try to mitigate the impact on their communities, but it is no excuse for the change in this legislation that the Government are ramming through.
Brandon Lewis
The hon. Lady tempts me to digress, but I will not go too far and test the Chair’s patience. However, I gently say to her that putting aside the fact that this is about local authorities making decisions about what is good for their local community, she might want to bear in mind, on her point about local government funding, that over the past few years, local authorities have managed to increase their reserves from about £13 billion to more than £22 billion. The revenue support grant that she referred to is actually a very small part of the income that local authorities get from a whole range of different areas.
I also find it slightly ironic that Labour Members, on listening to some of the things that we say about devolution, talk about closing post offices. Having seen how many post offices Labour closed, that is a slightly odd thing to hear.
Brandon Lewis
My hon. Friend makes a very good point, which highlights the difference as regards our genuine belief in devolving power and delivering on that, whether it is through the Localism Act 2011, the Housing and Planning Bill or indeed, through this Bill.
To put the Committee’s mind at rest, I do not intend to accept the very tempting offer from Labour Members and run through a whole list of all the fabulous tourism offers around Great Yarmouth. I just encourage them to come and see for themselves, and hopefully, after the Bill gets Royal Assent, they will be able to do some shopping and spend their money there as well. I will also not break into song and sing “Mamma Mia” to reflect what my mother would think about the Bill—I would not dare to put the Committee through that, but I am sure my mother will be looking forward to shopping for longer on a Sunday.
The hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North was absolutely right in one thing she said at least: the rules on which we are discussing devolving a new power are more than 20 years old. They predate the internet, and there is now a whole different world of retail. The hon. Member for Sefton Central talked in his opening remarks about devolution and other Members have talked particularly about convenience stores, which I value. I met some in my constituency just a few weeks ago, and some of them were talking about how this could actually increase their trade, because people get used to being able to shop for longer through the day. That mirrors what we have seen elsewhere—those convenience stores have managed to have growth of about 5% over the last year—and it is worth noting that the number of convenience stores in Scotland, where there is that free trade opportunity, is higher per head than it is here in England. That is a really good example from very close to home of how convenience stores can thrive.
Hon. Members have made a few comments today about people’s desire for their religious views to be recognised and that even those who are not religious might wish to keep Sunday special. I remind hon. Members, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe has rightly said a few times, that this is not compulsory. People do not have to shop on a Sunday. What this does is give an opportunity to people who want to take advantage of the wider flexibilities to be able to do so. That can play quite an important part in enhancing family life and, as I said, in creating more jobs for young people, women and others who want to take advantage of companies that decide that Sunday trading is in their interest and their customers’ interest.
Brandon Lewis
I will just make a bit more progress. The point has been made a few times about larger businesses and the differentials that we could see as local authorities make decisions locally around the country. It is right, as hon. Members have said, that local authorities could make different decisions on whether they take and use the powers, the format, how long they extend them for or how they choose to zone in their area. Council leaders have given me very different examples of what they want to do, and I encourage that, because it recognises the differences across the country for local communities.
Catherine McKinnell
The Minister appears to have dispensed with the Opposition queries, but he has skimmed over my question about the family-friendly test. Will he comment, or has it gone the way of hugging huskies?
Brandon Lewis
If the hon. Lady looks at Hansard this evening, she will find that I have been responding to a lot of the queries of Opposition Members, specifically hers. Only a few seconds ago I said specifically on the family-friendly test that the Bill will give families more flexibility and opportunity on how they choose to spend their time on a Sunday. It will be a big advantage for families. I am sure that if it were not, we would have had hon. Members from Scotland jumping up to explain how Sunday trading has ruined family life in Scotland, a religious and family-focused country. I love spending time there and I have not heard that. I suspect that we will find that Scotland is a very good place to bring up a family, despite the fact that Scottish communities have freedom on Sunday trading. We want to give the opportunity to enjoy that same freedom to communities in this country.
Brandon Lewis
The hon. Gentleman is stretching it a little far to make a joke. If he looks back at Prime Minister’s questions, he will find that, as I outlined, the Prime Minister made the point that it was right to review Sunday trading laws in light of the fact that the current rules date from before the internet existed. I was very clear about that.
The change will also ensure that we get a bigger opportunity to drive competition and productivity, reducing prices and improving convenience for consumers. I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman does not appreciate that we have a Prime Minister who cares about our economy and local communities having not only power, but local choice. We want to support our towns and cities to create jobs and have greater prosperity and to enable them to compete for lucrative international tourism, too. Larger shops opening for longer can benefit smaller shops, food establishments and tourism attractions by bringing footfall in. The larger shops draw footfall into our town centres and having them open is good for our town centres.
Catherine McKinnell
The Minister is making an eloquent speech, but it appears to be completely evidence-free. The evidence available to us appears to say the absolute opposite to him. Will he please provide some evidence base for what he is saying?
Brandon Lewis
I outlined the logic behind what we are doing earlier today. The hon. Lady can also have a look at the Government response to the consultation, which is clear on these matters. We are determined to ensure that we deliver the amendments, which provide choice for local areas on what suits their local preferences and their local economic conditions, choice for retailers to open at times that better suit the needs of their customers and choice for consumers on where and when to shop for a wider range of goods and services.
The strengthened rights for shop workers mean that the benefits of the proposals can be delivered while protecting those shop workers who do not want to work at all on a Sunday or who do not want to work longer hours on a Sunday. They deliver flexibility at a local level, which is crucial in ensuring that local communities and local economies can play to their local strengths. Whether it is by capitalising on tourist spend or catering for shoppers later in the day, the amendments will help those local economies, and by extension our UK economy, to grow. That is why the amendments represent an essential modernisation of a piece of law that in reality is no longer fit for purpose in our modern consumer world.