House of Lords
(12 years, 10 months ago)
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EU: Disintegration
(12 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Pearson of Rannoch
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have contingency plans for the disintegration of the European Union.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)
My Lords, the Government do not envisage the disintegration of the European Union. The United Kingdom remains a full member of the EU and we will continue to work hard with our many allies throughout Europe to advance our national interests, as well as those of all other EU member states.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch
My Lords, both Chancellor Merkel and President Van Rompuy have said that if the euro breaks up, the EU itself will follow suit. In case they are right, should we not plan to develop our trade and ties with the countries of the future, most particularly and obviously with the Commonwealth? Secondly, should we not be encouraged in this initiative by the knowledge that the EU was supposed to bring peace and prosperity to Europe, whereas in fact it has brought—
Lord Pearson of Rannoch
My Lords, that is now wishful thinking. The EU has in fact brought austerity, slump and civil unrest. What is the EU for? Why do we need it at all now?
Lord Howell of Guildford
My Lords, we have to be clear-sighted about the future. In one respect the noble Lord is right: all the great growth in new consumer markets, and the areas in which we must succeed as a nation if we are to maintain—let alone increase—our living standards, tend to lie in the emerging powers of Asia, Africa and Latin America. That is where my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has emphasised all along that we must develop our commercial, economic and political clout in order to survive. In that sense the noble Lord is right. However, at the same time, Europe is our neighbourhood and our biggest market. It is full of innovation and potential for the future. There are eurozone difficulties—no one denies that—at the moment, although with the European Central Bank now issuing unlimited three-year loans to all banks in trouble, there is at least a breathing space ahead on the question of the eurozone itself.
As to the specific matter of the Greek debt structure and how it will be resolved in the next few days, I really could not comment. However, one obviously hopes that it will be an orderly affair.
Lord Dykes
My Lords, if an aspiring Tory candidate for the other place decides to deny that he is Europhobic to the local party, he will not be selected. That means, logically, that UKIP is not fit for purpose, so will it not disintegrate much quicker than the eurozone recovers from its own crisis?
Lord Howell of Guildford
I am not sure that I quite get the ins and outs of all that. Generally, I hope my noble friend agrees with me that Europe is our neighbourhood but the world is our market, that we must have a balanced and sensible approach in developing good relations with a European Union which obviously requires reforming and modernising to meet the 21st century, and that we must also adjust our own nation to meet this new international landscape.
Lord Peston
My Lords, is it not a bit thick to blame the euro for our economic troubles when the Government are doing all they can with their own economic policies to destroy our economy?
Lord Howell of Guildford
I hear the view of one very learned economist but, as he knows, I think probably better than many economists, there are many different views, and that is very healthy. All economists tend to disagree with each other on these matters. Indeed, when they agree, they are usually wrong. As an ex-economist—a renegade economist—I am afraid that I have to disagree entirely with the noble Lord. I believe that our policies are the right ones to move us out of the colossal difficulties we face not only over the eurozone but the gigantic debt mountain that we were left by the previous Government.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, on this Australia Day, will the Minister confirm that he is well aware that the ties with the Commonwealth are already very strong and that everyone believes they will continue to be so?
Lord Howell of Guildford
Yes, I can confirm that I am well, well, well aware of that. The Commonwealth is one of the great networks of the future and we are proud to be members of that network. Indeed, it provides a gateway to many of the great new markets that I was talking about a moment ago.
Lord Kinnock
My Lords, in the interests of equipping members of this noble House, can the Government arrange for the provision to the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, of a sandwich board with, “The end of the world is nigh” written on one side and, “Stop the world, I want to get off” on the other? Is it not true and does the Minister agree that the United Kingdom’s best interests are in remaining a strong member of a modernising European Union in order that we can effectively deal with what the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, calls “the countries of the future”—notably those in Latin America, China and India? They really respect and take us seriously because we are participants in the EU.
Lord Howell of Guildford
I mostly agree with the noble Lord that our European membership is very valuable in promoting trade interests and access to new markets. At the same time, the bilateral links on the Commonwealth network have their part to play. Therefore, as usual, the answers lie in a number of directions, and if it is a question of sandwich boards, the glory of this House is that we tend to avoid simplicities and single answers and see that in many of these areas the answers are complex and multifaceted.
Lord Howell of Guildford
The details of this have been set out, particularly by my right honourable friend the Minister for Europe in front of the Lords European Union Committee the other day. I recommend that the noble Lord reads them. They are very detailed and answer his question very closely. Broadly, however, the preparations were of course there but had to be conditional on the initial drafts of what was going to be, and now is becoming, the intergovernmental agreement. It was presented in the first instance in December as a treaty for the 27. The draft of that was available only 24 hours before the actual meeting, so inevitably there had to be some last-minute reactions and adjustments, but at the end of it all it was perfectly clear that the safeguards sought by the Prime Minister were not going to be available and that haggling over an intergovernmental treaty that other members wanted to achieve rapidly would have been very disruptive. The best way was simply to say that we did not wish to be part of it, and that is what happened.
Baroness Howarth of Breckland
My Lords, if we are so influential in Europe, what are the Government doing to ensure that the financial framework matches the plans for 2020? At the moment, the common financial framework has not been adjusted to the 2020 planning, particularly regarding the work on the common agricultural policy, where a huge amount of funding continues to go into non-innovative processes.
Lord Howell of Guildford
Well, we are. The Government and many outside government continue to work to strengthen and reform all aspects of the European Union. The common agricultural policy is by no means set in concrete and certainly requires reform, as do infrastructure fund arrangements and many aspects of financial regulation, all of which can be improved. We are working away at those things all the time.
Developing Countries: Free and Fair Elections
(12 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they consider the conduct of free and fair elections to be a prerequisite for United Kingdom aid to developing countries.
Baroness Northover
The Government have committed to support at least 13 countries to hold free and fair elections by 2015. Elections are not a prerequisite for aid, but we provide direct support only for Governments who share our commitment to poverty reduction, human rights, public financial management and accountability to citizens. Where democratic norms are not respected, we ensure that those in need receive essential assistance by working outside Governments.
Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her Answer. The Government will be aware of the continuing concern about the organisation of the recent elections in the Democratic Republic of Congo. The UK Government are significantly increasing aid to the DRC over this year, next year and the year after. Will the Government, as part of the discussion on that bilateral aid, insist on lessons being learnt in that country, which suffers from some of the worst poverty and violence in the world, to ensure that future elections are more reliable and more transparent and that the results are trusted by more of the population?
Baroness Northover
I have read the noble Lord’s blog on his experiences in the DRC as an election monitor and I give him credit for going out there to do that. He noted how enthusiastically people voted, but that is balanced against problems in the election. We are monitoring the situation. We expect the full results of the DRC National Assembly elections are to be published shortly. Some problems have been flagged up and we seek that the DRC electoral commission investigates all of them. We are extremely well aware of the problems in the DRC. It was flagged up to me, for example, that it is the worst place in the world to be a woman. The noble Lord will be extremely familiar with the problems and we are well aware of them.
Lord Chidgey
I want to press my noble friend a little further on the issue of the DRC. I, too, had the opportunity to visit the country a few months ago before the elections, but the issues that were obvious then are still obvious today. Is my noble friend familiar with the DfID report, Electoral Assistance and Politics: Lessons for International Support, which states:
“Delivering free, fair and credible elections is … a considerable but important challenge, logistically, financially and politically”?
As my noble friend rightly says, the electoral commission has postponed issuing the results of the legislative elections yet again. The international election experts have left the country—frankly, I think, in disgust because they cannot get access to the election data—and the diaspora from the Congo, particularly in this country, are traumatised by the continuing fraud in elections in their home country. What will DfID do to try to make some sense of it all?
Baroness Northover
The first thing that I would emphasise is perhaps a sense of humility. If noble Lords bear in mind how long it took us to democratise from 1832 to 1929—in terms of the franchise for women—it is not surprising that, in some of these fragile states, it takes a long time to ensure that the elections are carried out fairly. Positive accounts are coming from the DRC about the elections, as the account of the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, bears out. As I said, various concerns are being monitored, particularly by the United States. We are in close contact. My noble friend Lord Howell answered on this subject the other day and the Minister for Africa is also pressing on the matter. We share those concerns and we are taking this forward, but we need to bear in mind the difficulties.
Lord Alton of Liverpool
My Lords, reverting to the specific Question asked by the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, about the DRC and the outcome of the elections, if the delegation that has been in London this week from opposition parties in the DRC is right and it is found that the elections have been entirely gerrymandered, will Her Majesty’s Government refuse to recognise the legitimacy of President Kabila and his Government? What about the opposition parties and their leaders who have been imprisoned in the DRC since the election and the closure of their television and radio stations and other media outlets? What have the Government to say about that?
Baroness Northover
One has to bear in mind the interests of all involved. It is striking that none of the observation missions—again, I make reference to the one that noble Lord, Lord McConnell, was on—judged that the overall result of the presidential election would have been changed by the irregularities that have been flagged up. However, it is clearly essential that the DRC electoral commission takes the necessary steps to investigate and address all reported irregularities.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
Will the Minister join me in commending the work of the Westminster Foundation for Democracy in promoting free and fair elections? I declare an interest as one of the Labour governors of the WFD. She will be aware that the foundation has put forward a business plan to the Department for International Development so that we can develop our work in the Middle East, north Africa and in other parts of Africa. We are still awaiting—for some time now—a response from DfID. Can she give an assurance that it will come in the very near future?
Baroness Northover
As the noble Lord clearly knows, the department is discussing with the Westminster Foundation for Democracy, which has done excellent work right across the world, how to take forward the work that DfID wants to encourage in supporting elections and everything that goes into making those elections work. That includes making sure that civil society is developed, that political parties are encouraged and that there is some basis on which these elections can work more effectively.
Small Businesses: Finance
(12 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Harrison
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what measures they propose to help small businesses and start-up companies access finance.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox)
The Government have a range of measures in place to help small businesses and start-up companies to access the finance they need. They include the enterprise finance guarantee scheme, which helps small businesses lacking track record or collateral to secure bank finance, the enterprise capital funds programme, which provides equity funding to high-growth potential businesses, BIS’s export finance guarantee, UK Export Finance’s products, and the recently announced £20 billion national loan guarantee scheme that will enable banks to offer lower-cost lending to small and medium-sized businesses.
Lord Harrison
My Lords, can I invite the Minister to correct the false impression given yesterday by the Prime Minister in PMQs that bank lending had increased to small businesses? In fact, the trend in bank lending, published by the Bank of England, shows a decline from April to November of last year. I remind her that the Federation of Small Businesses still talks about the difficulty of members obtaining bank lending. When they do it is typically at a 10 per cent rate. The other government programmes, for instance the Merlin programme, are all smoke and mirrors. The regional growth fund has been lending to big businesses, not small businesses. Can she think of something radical, for instance the state-funded Small Business Administration in America, which has successfully lent to small businesses the right amount of money to get the economy going? It is time that this Government did something big for small businesses.
Baroness Wilcox
Right. I am very pleased that I was at Prayers this morning when the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester read so beautifully the prayer with the words, “the sea rageth”. Without doubt the sea rageth when it comes to money and getting growth going, but it is important that we keep the faith and keep a steady course. The things that I have read out so far are working. There is no doubt that we are lending money to small businesses and they are starting to do well.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
I congratulate my noble friend and the Chancellor on the initiative that he has taken to allow people who are starting up businesses to obtain support under the enterprise allowance scheme from near relatives, which, for most people starting a business, is the main source of finance. May I respectfully suggest that what we need in this country is not more debt in businesses but more equity, so the Chancellor’s emphasis on this is really very important and worth while?
Baroness Wilcox
Of course, I agree with my noble friend. It is a great asset to allow families to support new businesses. I have no doubt that in the next few weeks when the Budget comes to us, we will hear the Chancellor emphasise again the points that my noble friend made so well.
Lord Martin of Springburn
My Lords, it is deeply worrying when stories come from self-employed businesspeople running small companies—sometimes one-man companies—that the banks give verbal assurances that they will give them finance, but several weeks later when they come to sign up the banks withdraw the assurances. That is cruel and hard, and I hope that the Government will be able to do something about it.
Baroness Wilcox
We are of course very aware that very often it is difficult for small businesses to make their case. They do not have the mechanisms that large companies have and are not sure how to go and speak to the banks. The banks assure us that they are working very hard to help people, particularly self-employed people, who come to make a business case. Of course, they have to make a business case because it is other people's money that they are borrowing.
Lord Razzall
My Lords, I am sure that the noble Baroness will be aware that, notwithstanding the list of programmes that she put forward in response to the Question, particularly in the light of the current economic situation there is significant criticism that the Government should be doing more to stimulate growth. Does she think that Her Majesty's Government have the correct balance between the deficit reduction programme and the steps that are being taken to stimulate growth, particularly in the SME sector?
Baroness Wilcox
I thank my noble friend for his question. The answer is: yes, I do.
The Lord Bishop of Exeter
Is the noble Baroness aware that in a county such as Devon, at the heart of the rural economy are a host of small and micro businesses? Is she further aware of the particular challenges facing small, rural businesses as they try to raise start-up capital and money for ongoing investment at this time? Will she gave an assurance that the various programmes that she mentioned, as well as local enterprise partnerships, are properly weighing the needs of rural businesses compared with those in more urban areas?
Baroness Wilcox
The right reverend Prelate makes a very fine point. As he knows, I come from Devon. All the banks are being made aware of the fact that not everyone comes to them with the same case. Banks have heard so much criticism since the Government took office that they are very sensitive to the need to make sure, certainly in rural areas, that they are seen to be listening sympathetically to every case.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, will the Minister tell the House what is being done to help small businesses to export more? We know that many markets abroad would benefit from putting their small businesses together with ours. What action are the Government taking to concentrate on small businesses getting into these very important export markets?
Baroness Wilcox
The noble Lord, Lord Green, heads up our export division. I am absolutely sure that he has this well on his scanner. When he took up his office, he decided not to go abroad first but to go around Great Britain and look at small and medium-sized businesses to see what they needed and what help they could be given. I like to think that one day he will come here and described this himself.
Lord Flight
My Lords, does the Minister agree that while the Government are doing a lot of what they can to provide finance, the real issue for small business is the cost of the regulatory burden, this is an unattractive economy for small businesses to operate in, in comparison with others, and what is needed is a programme of regulatory exemptions for small businesses?
Baroness Wilcox
As my noble friend knows, we are looking at the regulatory system from top to bottom to see that, wherever possible, we make it easier for people to go to work and to get the job done.
Health: Tropical Diseases
(12 years, 10 months ago)
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Baroness Hayman
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what international support they expect to receive for the new Department for International Development initiative to combat neglected tropical diseases announced on 21 January.
Baroness Northover
The Government have just announced a fivefold increase in support for neglected tropical diseases. This will help to protect more than 140 million people worldwide. It will strengthen the UK’s partnerships with the World Health Organisation, foundations such as the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, the Carter Center, other donors, pharmaceutical companies that are making drug donations, the endemic countries and non-governmental organisations.
Baroness Hayman
I welcome that very positive response from the Minister and the Government’s initiative in this field. I should declare a non-financial interest as a trustee of the Sabin Vaccine Institute, which works to develop new vaccines for diseases such as human hook worm and on mass drug administration programmes.
Does the Minister agree that diseases such as guinea worm, river blindness and schistosomiasis not only devastate the health, education and employment prospects of hundreds of millions of the world’s poorest people but impede progress towards the achievement of the millennium development goals? Given that eradication is a real possibility and that intervention is so cost-effective, will the Government do all they can to ensure that generous donors, such as the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, and other countries continue their efforts so that we can rid the world of these truly awful diseases?
Baroness Northover
The noble Baroness is absolutely right. I pay tribute to her and to her husband Martin Hayman for all that they have done in this field. When this announcement was made, my honourable friend Stephen O’Brien said:
“British support will take the neglected out of neglected tropical diseases”.
That is clearly critical. The noble Baroness is absolutely right: these are devastating diseases. The United Kingdom can help gear up what is happening elsewhere. The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation has been remarkable in what it has managed to achieve, as has the Carter Center. The possible elimination of guinea worm by 2015 would be the second human disease that we have managed to eliminate.
Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead
Does the Minister agree that the distribution of drugs and the setting up of treatment programmes present a huge challenge in many of the countries where these neglected tropical diseases are endemic, where health systems are already struggling to provide even the most basic services? Would she also agree that a further challenge comes from meeting requirements to regulate a range of what will be new medical products and to evaluate their safety, their efficacy and their quality in very particular conditions, for instance in Africa? Will the Minister assure the House that funding will be provided to support efforts to strengthen health systems and to build capacity to regulate the new drugs?
Baroness Northover
I can give the noble Baroness that assurance. She will know that there is a conference on Monday that will be attended by Bill Gates and many organisations, including the WHO. This will doubtless be part of what they will be considering.
Lord McColl of Dulwich
Would my noble friend agree that this Government’s policy of increasing aid to developing countries is just and admirable and so is the method of giving aid on condition that it is spent on agreed projects and carried out by reputable NGOs?
Baroness Northover
I thank my noble friend for those comments. I would also point out that British universities, which have a long track record in research on tropical diseases, are also able to take advantage of this so that the work done at Imperial College, the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine and the Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine should also be encouraged.
Lord Walton of Detchant
My Lords, now that smallpox has been eradicated from the world and that the same may soon be true of poliomyelitis and that vaccines for malaria and many other neglected tropical diseases are in an advanced stage of development, this development by government is most welcome. Is the Minister satisfied that there are sufficient training opportunities in tropical medicine in this country to enable doctors to be trained who wish to work in the tropics on the eradication of these diseases?
Baroness Northover
I thank the noble Lord for his comments. The prospects before us are astonishing. I have just mentioned the United Kingdom universities and their research centres. I know that various noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, are playing a part in trying to ensure just that.
Lord Chidgey
Can my noble friend confirm that the £20 million increase in funding, a fivefold increase, from the UK Government is in fact dependent on finding matching funds? Therefore, can she tell your Lordships’ House what progress has been made in securing those matching funds, and whether this would enable the programme to maintain its dynamicism, which is obviously so important?
Baroness Northover
Yes, the contribution to the Carter Center is based on matched funding, and the conference on Monday will help to take this area forward.
Lord Crisp
My Lords, I declare an interest as chairman of Sightsavers, part of the UK Coalition against Neglected Tropical Diseases. I congratulate the Government on this initiative and on continuing the leading role that the UK plays in development. Does the Minister agree that the Government, national Governments in the affected countries, Sightsavers and others can now plan confidently to eradicate blinding trachoma—it is eminently preventable: we know all the ways to do it and we have the drugs—and that we should be able to do that in the next decade?
Baroness Northover
I certainly hope that that will be the case, and one of the diseases that this new programme will focus on is indeed trachoma.
Storage of Carbon Dioxide (Inspections etc.) Regulations 2012
(12 years, 10 months ago)
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Baroness Stowell of Beeston
That the draft regulations laid before the House on 14 November 2011 be approved.
Relevant document: 33rd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 23 January
Scotland Bill
(12 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Wallace of Tankerness
That the House do now resolve itself into a Committee on the Bill.
Amendment to the Motion
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
As an amendment to the Motion “That the House do now resolve itself into a Committee on the Bill”, to leave out from “House” to end and insert “declines to consider the Bill in Committee until Her Majesty’s Government have laid before Parliament a report on the results of the consultation they launched on 11 January on Scotland’s constitutional future and until the Scottish Parliament has passed a further Legislative Consent Motion in respect of the Bill”.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, I begin by thanking my noble friends the Leader of the House and the Chief Whip for their courtesy in dealing with the first part of my amendment, in so far as a timetable Motion has been brought forward to ensure that those parts of the Bill which are concerned with matters that are subject to consultation will be dealt with at a later stage. I am grateful to the usual channels on all sides of the House for ensuring that that happened. It is a happy remedy to the problem that was created by the consultation paper setting a date of 9 March for responses.
Consultation papers on referenda seem to be a bit like buses: just when you are not expecting any, two come along. We have a competing consultation paper from Alex Salmond and the Scottish Executive, which was launched yesterday in no less grand a place than the Great Hall of Edinburgh Castle, which in my day was used only for state and non-controversial occasions. It would be a bit like the Prime Minister launching a consultation paper on a matter of controversy in the great hall here at Westminster—something I know he would never contemplate doing.
I am afraid that I have a number of questions for my noble friend and for the Government on the second part of my amendment, which deals with the issue of legislative consent. Perhaps I may dwell for the moment on the consultation paper that has been released by the Scottish Executive. That has a deadline for responses of 9 May, which is after this Session of Parliament is likely to have ended. The Chief Whip on the opposition Benches is shaking his head. Perhaps it may be possible for us to continue discussions on the Scotland Bill beyond 9 May, with his agreement—I think not.
I am very concerned about this competing consultation paper. First, it proposes an absolutely rigged question on independence. It is a loaded question; those who were listening to the “Today” programme will have heard the advice from a completely impartial US expert which confirms that. The question invites the answer “Yes”. That the First Minister is suggesting that loaded question, and that the Electoral Commission, which I am delighted to say he has now agreed should be involved, should be unable to opine on the question, makes me very concerned about the First Minister’s ability to deliver a referendum campaign that would be fair and balanced let alone legal.
What is being proposed in the consultation paper that has been released is not a referendum at all, and what the First Minister is proposing is the most expensive opinion poll in history—it will cost £10 million. It will not be a decisive referendum, because the authority of the Westminster Parliament would be required to achieve that. He is planning on having a very expensive opinion poll; and if he succeeds in getting a result of yes, he would enter negotiations with the Government, and people would then discover what they had been voting for in his referendum. That seems quite the wrong way round. There is an opportunity for us to amend the Bill to ensure that we have a properly conducted and fair referendum that will be decisive, to bring this matter to a conclusion, and to ensure that all the arguments and information are made available to the voters in advance.
As for this consultation paper, I am also concerned about the Government’s attitude—I would like to have a response from the Minister—both to the question and to the fact that the Electoral Commission’s role is to be rigged. The commission will not be able to carry out its duties, as it did most recently in the referendum on AV. Not only was the Electoral Commission responsible for that referendum but the chief executive was the accounting officer. It seems to me that that should also be the position in a matter as serious as deciding whether to break up the United Kingdom.
Not only does the consultation paper propose that there should be a rigged Electoral Commission: the position on campaign expenses is also being rigged. For the Scottish parliamentary elections, each political party was able to spend £1.5 million. The consultation paper proposes that the sum should be reduced to £250,000 per party. I wonder if that is because there is one party in favour of breaking up Britain and at least three against, and this is an attempt to limit their ability to put the argument. So we have a rigged question, a rigged role for the regulator and rigged expenses. On top of that, there is the suggestion that there should be a rigged franchise.
I dwell on this at length to emphasise how important it is that we ensure in this Bill that we have a proper process in place, so that at the end of the day, however people vote in Scotland on breaking up Britain—yes or no—no one can say that it was not fair and the result was not reached in a proper manner.
It really is extraordinary. Certainly when I was Secretary of State I was conscious that I was a Conservative—in many ways I felt that I was in opposition all the time I was in the Government—but I was also conscious that, as Secretary of State, I had a wider duty. On looking at this consultation paper, I am afraid to say that the First Minister has betrayed the trust which has been put in him as First Minister, and he appears to be putting his party’s interest before his country’s interest while posing as a champion of national interest.
One other point that we have to discuss, which relates to legislative consent, is the whole question of so-called devo-max. The consultation paper suggests that there could be a second question on that. Whatever your views on this, and I am not a fan, it would undoubtedly change the nature not just of how business is treated in Scotland but of how business is treated here. In effect it would create an English Parliament and a federal parliament. That is a matter for the United Kingdom as a whole, and if we are to have a referendum on devo-max, whatever it is and however it is defined, it is something for a referendum for the whole of the United Kingdom. Therefore to suggest that a question on devo-max should be added to a referendum on independence is again a deliberate attempt to rig the thing in order to split those who are opposed to breaking up Britain. Once more, I think that that is the purpose.
The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness)
Without Moses!
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
I do not think that Alex Salmond would like being compared with Moses. After all, Moses never got to see the Promised Land. However, on reflection, perhaps my noble and learned friend is right.
One other aspect of the consultation paper is that he wants to rig the franchise and give the vote to 16 and 17 year-olds. My researchers tell me that there are only nine countries in the world that give the franchise to 16 and 17 year-olds, two of which are North Korea and Cuba, both of which have leaders with a high opinion of themselves.
I am not noted for carrying a flag for the Scottish Parliament but, to be serious, there are some very important recommendations here, on some of which I have tabled amendments so that they can at least be debated. I do not agree with all of them, but some of them are perfectly sensible. For example, this Bill provides for the control of speed limits in Scotland to be devolved to the Scottish Parliament. I think that that is daft, because you would cross the border and suddenly there would be a different speed limit. But it has been agreed—it is in the Bill and I do not want to question it. However, the committee of the Scottish Parliament says that it should not give legislative consent unless the Government agree to change the Bill, which at the moment allows the Scottish Parliament to set the speed limits for cars but not for HGV vehicles. It seems a little odd that we are prepared to devolve responsibility for motor cars but not for HGVs. I have tabled an amendment to which I hope my noble and learned friend will give fair consideration at a later stage. There are other issues, too, which should be considered.
I know that my noble and learned friend is agog as to whether I am going to press this matter to a vote. In order to avoid having to do so, I have tabled an amendment on the issue of legislative consent which says that if within two months of Royal Assent for this Bill we have not had legislative consent from the Scottish Parliament to those provisions which relate to its responsibilities, then the Bill will fall, and only those provisions which do not require legislative consent will remain. I hope that my noble and learned friend, after the consultation period has been concluded, and given the evidence of a lack of good faith on the part of the First Minister, will consider amending the Bill to provide for a fair and proper referendum to be conducted. In those circumstances—if the Scottish Parliament did not give legislative consent—we would be left with a Bill that simply provided for a referendum. I beg to move.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, it is never easy to follow the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, particularly when you agree with him. Like him, I am very glad that the Government tabled their Business Motion on Tuesday and that we agreed it, because if they had not, I would have supported and voted for the Motion of the noble Lord. It would probably have been the first time that I had done so, but it would have been with enthusiasm and alacrity.
Some of my friends warned me against allying myself with the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, saying that he is toxic in Scotland. I know that the poll tax which he was associated with was not very popular in Scotland, but I take the simple view that even a Tory is not always wrong. Then, when he or she is right, we should support them; and I think that the noble Lord is right here. I sincerely commend the Prime Minister—I very seldom do that—and the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, on their clear, unequivocal and dedicated support for the union, because it is not in their narrow party interest. If they were looking after their narrow party interest, they would want to get rid of Scotland, with all the Labour MPs who come to the United Kingdom Parliament.
I say to my colleagues, with great sincerity, that I am sorry that some of them seem afraid of working with the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats on this campaign to protect the union. Of course we will get jibes from Salmond and the cybernats but that is because they do not want us to work together and to be united. That is why they are saying, “Oh, you are working with the Tories. This is dreadful. This is awful”. I am sure that Members opposite will understand that that carries some resonance, in Scotland in particular. However, I was four years in the Scottish Parliament and I remember that it was Annabel Goldie and the Scottish Conservative MSPs who sustained Alex Salmond. So it is all right for him to work with them when it suits him, but he turns on us when we consider doing so.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
Does the noble Lord recall that I shall always be grateful to the Scottish Nationalists for bringing down a Labour Government and enabling Mrs Thatcher to become Prime Minister.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
Indeed. That is something else we agree on. Like the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, we Labour people keep reminding them of that treachery as well. The only good thing about it was that it enabled me to get elected in 1979, but that is another story.
A few years ago I asked one of the most right-wing Thatcherites, George Mathewson, who said that the only person who had done anything good for the Scottish economy was Margaret Thatcher, why he was now supporting the SNP. I could not understand it because he was a real hard-line Tory. He said, “Because I want to keep you Labour people out in Scotland”. That is why he was doing it and, no doubt, that is why Souter, Farmer and others are as well.
I wish to take this opportunity to urge us all, unionists, devolutionists and the Liberal Democrats—who ought to be federalists—not to be fearful of Salmond. The Liberal Democrats need to rediscover the enthusiasm for federalism contained in their manifesto and I was glad to see Simon Hughes at least talking about devolution within England. I have known Salmond for a very long time, since before he was a Member of Parliament. Of course he is cunning, able and a gambler—but he is not infallible. Already we have seen that he is unable to answer some of the searching questions about the reality of independence. When he is asked about the euro or the pound and about defence—when he is challenged on these issues—he is found wanting. We should challenge him at every opportunity. In particular, he wants to muddy the water with the argument between devolution—or devo-max, whatever they call it—and independence by pretending that there is very little difference; that you can move quietly and easily from maximum devolution to independence. Nothing could be further from the truth. There is a huge, vital difference and we must remind people in Scotland of that difference. That is why the first question—and it must be the only question—is whether or not Scotland should remain part of the United Kingdom. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, is right—Salmond is proposing a fixed question. The question should be: “Should Scotland remain part of the United Kingdom, yes or no?”. That is the honest, sincere question but Salmond is trying to muddy it. Once we decide—as I hope we will—that Scotland should remain part of the United Kingdom, then of course we can have a detailed debate about how much devolution. We will no doubt discuss that, hold different views and then come to a consensus on it.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
It is down for next Thursday as well. Sometimes I think that the Whips on both sides have got it in for us Scots by tabling Scottish business on a Thursday. Not every Member of this House comes from London. Those of us from Scotland who have to travel down and back each week need some consideration in relation to business. It is not just the Whips on the other side but my own noble friends. I have spoken to them—gently—about trying to avoid Thursdays.
We also need to give each aspect of the Bill careful consideration. Some people say we should just rush it through. Salmond accuses us and calls us, as the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, said, this “unelected House”. He keeps going on about that but this House is part of our constitution. While we exist, we have a responsibility and duty to deal with legislation properly. We should not be ashamed of that. We should not cower.
Lord Hughes of Woodside
Would my noble friend remind the House that the Bill was passed by the elected House of Commons in the first place?
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
Absolutely—and, like every other Bill, it is important that we give it detailed consideration. Like the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, I think that we should consider holding off completing consideration of it until that second legislative consent Motion is through. I have the greatest respect for the Minister, as I do for my own Front Bench colleagues—my noble friend Lord Browne of Ladyton gave me a wee look then. I respect their agreement to hold off consideration until later. However, I hope that they will now give careful consideration to holding off final approval and accepting the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, until the second legislative consent Motion is agreed because this is Salmond’s latest trap.
The future of Scotland does not just affect we Scots but everyone in this United Kingdom. Every Member of this House has a responsibility to take part in that. We must fight to protect the union. It is the most successful economic union in the world, which has existed, developed and moved forward for the past 300 years. It is worth all of us fighting for it. Whether we feel inhibited as unelected Members—I that hope we do not—we should fight for what we think is right.
Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, it is not the first time that, rather surprisingly, I have had to rise to agree with everything that the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, has said. I, too, have had experience of Mr Salmond as a Minister, when I was in charge of fisheries in the Scottish Office. Of course, Alex Salmond was Member of Parliament for Banff and Buchan, which is—as anyone knows—the main fishing area of Scotland. I can assure noble Lords of what the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, just said: we are dealing with an extremely clever, devious man, apparently easy going until things are at a difficult stage, and then he will put the boot in.
I will say just one very sincere thing about this particular Bill, which is vital for us and for Scotland. When we consider the referendum, there must be no weakening of the powers contained in the Scotland Act to hold on firmly to the powers that Westminster has over the constitution. This is what my noble friend Lord Forsyth is getting at. I am extremely worried that there are two consultation papers. There is one that we have already seen and one produced in Edinburgh yesterday. The date for final submissions for the Edinburgh document is May. I am very worried that if this goes into the next Session of Parliament—as we hear is likely to happen—Mr Salmond will again get his way. We must not let that happen. We must ensure, through the Scotland Bill and my noble friend on the Front Bench, that when we face the referendum we have adequate safeguards in our Bill to enable us to tell Mr Salmond, “These are the rules by which we are playing”.
Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke
My Lords, I have a great deal of sympathy for the position that the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, has so eloquently set out. A huge amount has happened in the Scottish debate since these issues were discussed in the House of Commons some months ago. We have to take into account the nature of the change in that debate. If the coalition Government had not agreed to defer the discussion of the referendum sections of the Bill, I would have urged the noble Lord to test the opinion of the House on this Bill, whether or not this is Thursday. We must bear in mind the respect for the Scottish people, and it is to the Government’s credit that they have delayed those sections of the Bill until after the end of the consultation process. The consultation document is excellent.
One reason why I believe that this Parliament is so rubbished by the First Minister and the Scottish National Party is because they have consistently failed to make their mark in this Parliament and in elections to this Parliament. The political parties represented here have a mandate from the Scottish people as well, and we are all clearly parties proud to be part of the United Kingdom. I am a proud Scot, a Scot who is proud of being Scottish and of being British—and I am also pretty proud of being European as well. Many of our antecedents fought on the battlefields of Europe under a British flag, and they did so for freedoms that we enjoy today.
The First Minister wants the referendum to be held in 2014 because of the anniversary of Bannockburn. It is also the centenary of the First World War, when my family paid a price, as did many families, for the freedoms that we enjoy. So we should not be taken up by this “Braveheart” rhetoric of the First Minister.
I am very conscious that it is the will of the Government and of many members of my own Front Bench to proceed with this Bill, and I concede to that. There is a wee bit of an element of tidying up here—I always thought that tidying up in January was an affliction that visited the female of the species and that the male had some sort of genetic in-built gear that stopped the tidying up—as I am told that we must not allow this Bill to go into the next Session of Parliament. I am one of those people who is a wee bit sceptical about a self-regulating Chamber, but people tell me that when you have a self-regulating House you are able to do the will of the House, and I believe that it would be the will of the House to give us extra time to consider the next phase of the legislation.
As I indicated at Second Reading, I wish to probe the Minister about the cost of some of the elements within this Bill, not least of the amendments to taxation. We need to get this discussion and debate on to a grown-up level and learn how the disaggregation of taxation in the United Kingdom will be brought about. If possible, I would love to have a debate on the disaggregation of social security in the United Kingdom, because that is something that the nationalists prepare to move on from very quickly indeed.
Let me be a bit controversial. I do not think that the First Minister wants independence. He is frightened of independence. Why else would he say, “Keep the monarchy, keep the Army and keep sterling”—although going into monetary union without fiscal union is something that we should have learnt one or two lessons about. He is frightened of the consequences; he wants the rhetoric but does not want to take the hard decisions.
I urge noble Lords when we consider this Bill to take the opportunity to probe more deeply into what this concept of additional measures of devolution would mean, because I would not want us this time next year or the following year to come back to these issues, particularly around taxation. I look forward to the debates on these matters, but I thank the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, for putting this Motion on the Order Paper. To our English colleagues it gives some sort of flavour to the issues that we have to address in Scotland, and I am absolutely confident that every one of us in this House, given the oath that we swear when we take our seats, believes that we are proud to be British, just as many of us are proud to be Scottish, Welsh, Northern Irish and English.
Lord Wigley
My Lords, I rise with some trepidation, as I did at Second Reading, to intervene but briefly in this debate, because Wales is not Scotland and Plaid Cymru is not the SNP. But I could not sit here and hear my good friend Alex Salmond being bad-mouthed in the way that he has been already in this debate, and no doubt we will hear more of that.
Lord Wigley
Well, it is for noble Lords to decide for themselves whether the noises made in this Chamber and heard in Scotland will help or hinder the outcome of a referendum that they wish to hear.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
That is exactly what the cybernats say. Is it not to try to shut us up that they are saying that?
Lord Wigley
No, indeed, it is not to shut anybody up but to raise the question that every noble Lord or noble Baroness will answer for himself or herself about the words that they choose in following this very important debate with regard to the future relationships of the countries of the United Kingdom. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, rubbished the way in which Alex Salmond had introduced the question, referring to it as a rigged question. He did not, however, read the question out. It is:
“Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country?”.
I have enough respect for the people of Scotland being able to make a judgment on that, whichever way it goes, because the question is absolutely clear-cut. One can of course have different versions of a question, but that is not a rigged question.
Lord Gordon of Strathblane
On a point of clarification, I would vote yes to Scotland being an independent country. We are independent at the moment. We are in a marriage with England, and I am quite happy to renew our marriage vows at any time, but that does not mean we are not independent.
Lord Wigley
Of course the definition of “independent” is certain to be central to the debate, but all that argument will not be on the ballot paper. The ballot paper has to have a question that reflects the debate that has taken place, and I have no doubt that there will be a debate in detail about the implications of an independent country. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, raised the question regarding a referendum possibly not being valid if it is organised from Scotland. However, as we well remember from the debates of the 1970s, the referenda on the then proposed assemblies for Scotland and for Wales were consultative referenda, as any referendum is in the context of our Parliament.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
I apologise for interrupting the noble Lord, who is being very generous, but we have just had a referendum on AV which I criticised in this House because, in fairness, it was a binding referendum. It is not true to say that every referendum has been consultative. The difficulty with Alex Salmond’s referendum is that it is simply consultative, but we need to resolve this matter. For example, the Royal Bank of Scotland would not be able to operate in an independent Scotland and if we are going to draw this out till 2016, what is going to happen to the security of our jobs and so on? We need to resolve this one way or the other; that is the criticism. On the point of the question, could the noble Lord, as the spokesman in this place for Alex Salmond, help me? Why is he refusing to agree that that question, which the noble Lord says is fair, should be looked at and determined by the Electoral Commission?
Lord Wigley
I am very grateful for that intervention. I am not going to go after the Royal Bank of Scotland because no doubt we will come to those issues later in the Bill, and I hope to be participating then. With regard to the latter point, Alex Salmond said yesterday:
“The question is designed to comply with the Electoral Commission's guidelines which are that referendum questions should present the options clearly, simply and neutrally. The question we have published today aims to be all three, and will be subject to testing using a sample of voters”.
That accepts that he will have discussions with the Electoral Commission, and I understand that the Secretary of State for Scotland has welcomed that.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
I do not know what the Secretary of State for Scotland has said, but what the First Minister said is what the noble Lord just read out, and it is typical of the weasel words that are used. When he is asked specifically, “Will the question be changed if the Electoral Commission advises that it should be?”, we get no response. Does the noble Lord agree that if the Electoral Commission, as the regulator, suggested a change then any fair minded First Minister would agree to it and agree to that principle?
Lord Wigley
Clearly, anyone concerned with the question will take great note of what the Electoral Commission says. I make it clear to the noble Lord that I am not here answering on behalf of Alex Salmond, but I wanted to stand up and say a word on his behalf when I heard certain words being used—we heard the phrase “weasel words” a moment ago—and his good faith being questioned. He has been described as cunning, a gambler, devious and frightened. I put it to noble Lords that if the debate is going to be pursued in that tone, what will be the outcome and the reaction in Scotland? I leave it at that.
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard
My Lords, I am ashamed, as a Scotsman and a Scots unionist, that it took a Welshman to make that point. I agree about the language.
I felt uneasy on 10 January when the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, presented the Government’s consultation paper to us. There was enormous cross-Chamber unanimity that it was a jolly good document, that it was right in law and that it was right on the question and its timing. All the blue bonnets from over the border, the Forsyths, the Foulkeses, the Steels, the Langs—the Scottish political aristocracy of yesteryear—were all strongly in support of what the United Kingdom Government said in their consultation paper. A different view was taken by quite a large proportion of the Scottish people, for whom this all may have seemed a little odd. I do not disagree with the noble Lord on what he said about the law; the paper is mainly about the law and reserved powers and the power in Section 30. However, it is not clear beyond peradventure in Scotland that the terms and the timing of the question need to be settled by us, not by the Scottish Parliament. I am not saying that the people who disagree with that are right but merely that it is a question for debate.
In the debate that I have referred to, the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, put a number of interesting questions to the Scottish National Party and he has done so again today. He has made an interesting, lively, jocular debating speech, asking questions of the SNP. I feel sorry for the Minister who has to answer the debate; it is not really his job to answer for the SNP. Here is my serious point: why is there not someone in this Chamber who does answer for the Scottish National Party? I know the answer, but it would be highly desirable that all parties that are represented in this Chamber should make informal representations to the missing party. I do not support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth; we should go ahead with the Bill and the Government’s timetabling proposals seem absolutely right to me, but our debates on the Bill would be greatly assisted if we had half a dozen people here who actually believed in the policies of the SNP, perhaps because they were members of it.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
I completely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Kerr. He may know the answer to his question but maybe not everyone does. My good friend and SNP MP Pete Wishart has raised regularly at SNP conferences that they should take up the offer to nominate for this place. That has been vetoed again and again by Alex Salmond.
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard
It is a question that could be raised again, given that we have a legislative workload on Scotland and that we would benefit from hearing the views of the Scottish National Party.
I have an additional point, and here I agree very strongly with what the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, said. I do not want to see the balkanisation of Britain. The first casualty, though, could be the language of constitutional debate. We really should not be using language like “rigged” or “fixed”. If there was someone here to answer and hit back at us in this debate, it would be bold and brave to use such language; it is not bold and brave to use it when there is nobody here to speak for the side that one is attacking. To accuse someone who is not represented here of being devious seems very unwise. We have very serious constitutional questions to address. I am a unionist. It is very important for the future and the health of the union that we address these questions in sober, polite and reasonable parliamentary language.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
Could I ask the noble Lord about the interesting argument that he is developing about the importance of having people from the Scottish nationalists in this House? Would he apply that to UKIP? When he talks about language, I recall that the noble Lord referred to Members on this side, who are rather more sceptical about Europe than he is, as the Tea Party. Was that an appropriate use of language?
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard
I am delighted that the noble Lord remembers—I thought it was one of my most polished impromptus and that it had fallen by the wayside. I have no views on and nothing to say about UKIP. We are talking about Scotland and the party that won a landslide election victory last year and should be represented in this House.
The Lord Bishop of Chester
My Lords, I hope I can be forgiven, as a Sassenach bishop, for making a brief contribution. When I go to Burns suppers at this time of year, I find myself with rather better Scottish credentials than many of those who present themselves in kilts: I have two degrees from a Scottish university and one wife from Scotland, as well as a home there. I am probably the only bishop who will have a vote in the referendum, if I understand the franchise correctly. I am tempted to take a poll of all my Scottish friends who will be disenfranchised before I decide how to cast my vote.
I have a specific question for the Minister, which has not been raised so far. The Second Reading debate was in September and we are now entering Committee at the end of January. An awful lot has happened in that time. In the mists of history, I was a chemist and one of the few things that I learnt was that, when you have several variables on the go at the same time, it is difficult to know what is really happening. In doing an experiment, you change one variable to see what the result is before you bring another variable into play. The referendum might be held in the midst of the implementation of the significant additional devolution that is enshrined in the Scotland Bill, not least in the area of taxation, which throws down the gauntlet as regards fiscal matters. Have the Government given any thought to the awkwardness of holding the referendum and that discussion while we are further down the line of implementing this Bill? That rather undergirds what the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, said and the last part of his Motion. If we are to go ahead with this Bill, we have to do so with the full consent of the Scottish Parliament. If we do not, it will be a very awkward and messy discussion. It is already marred by a great deal of awkwardness and messiness for various reasons.
Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale
My Lords, the result of last year’s election in Scotland produced two significant developments which should affect today’s discussion. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, on bringing this matter to the Chamber. There is a need to discuss the Government’s overall strategy in relation to this Bill and the other matters that affect its progress.
The first significant impact of last year’s election result in Scotland is that there will come a point when, for the first time since devolution and the innovation of the legislative consent Motion, which my noble friend Lord Sewel introduced, there will be a significant issue—subject to a legislative consent Motion—on which the two Parliaments disagree. The second significant development and impact was that the majority achieved by the Scottish National Party in those elections gave the First Minister the opportunity to use that majority ruthlessly—he has been very clear about this—to determine, if he could, the rules, organisation and timing of the referendum.
Perhaps to the surprise of many of my colleagues, I welcomed the Prime Minister’s intervention this month, but I have two regrets about it as well. The first is that it was several months too late and should have occurred at a much earlier stage in the debate. None the less, it is welcome. The second is that it appears yet again to be part of a government strategy which, to be honest, has regularly since last May seemed to be all over the place, with different Ministers saying different things, the Prime Minister sometimes intervening and sometimes not, and the Government changing their position on different aspects of a referendum or other matters from time to time, or at least giving the impression of doing so.
This debate gives us an opportunity to say to the Government and to the Prime Minister that there needs to be a much more coherent approach to this. It is vital that the referendum, whenever it takes place, does so under fair rules agreed between the parties, not just by the nationalist majority in the Scottish Parliament but by all the parties, as occurred in 1997. The new Labour Government in 1997 gained more votes than did the Scottish National Party in Scotland last May, yet that summer they worked not just with the Liberal Democrats, who were our colleagues in the Constitutional Convention—the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, was a leading figure in that discussion—but with the nationalists, who were against devolution up until that referendum, and with the Conservatives, who at that point were in opposition in the House of Commons. That is the approach that must determine the organisation of this referendum. Any interventions that help us secure that are, in my view, welcome. If the Government are to succeed in this effort, they need to be more coherent and more consistent in their approach to tackling these issues.
As regards the legislative consent Motion, we have to understand that if we have a process that works relatively comfortably when the two Governments are working in agreement and when the two Governments are of, or largely of, the same party, there will be times when the legislative consent Motion is not going to happen because the Scottish Parliament is of a different political composition. You cannot have the principle of the legislative consent Motion and then ride roughshod over it. I know that that is not the intention of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, and it would certainly not be his approach, but we have to be very cautious about making too much progress on this Bill in advance of further discussion taking place with the Scottish Parliament, as the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, has said. There is a point of principle on the LCM. We need to be careful how we proceed. I understand the desire of many Members on both Front Benches and elsewhere to make progress on the Bill, but we need to make sure that any such progress and any further interventions on the issue of a referendum should proceed in a coherent fashion and that the Government should follow through with a proper strategy to engage the Scottish Government in discussions—not just do interviews on Sunday mornings on the BBC—even if they have to force them to the table to do that, to make sure that the Scots get the referendum they deserve.
Lord Hughes of Woodside
My Lords, I wish to follow my noble friend on the point about how we are going to have discussions with the Scottish Government or the Scottish Executive. The trouble is that there are no circumstances whatever in which Alex Salmond and the SNP will sit down to discuss anything about the future. My noble friend will recall that Alex Salmond is not alone in that—the Conservative Party did not take part in the Scottish Constitutional Convention, which eventually produced the devolution settlement. The Scottish Government refused to have anything to do with the Calman commission, which is the basis of this report. At no time has Alex Salmond been prepared to discuss this rationally with anyone. That is not meant to be an insult; it is a statement of fact. I do not want to go over old scores. I just say to the noble Lord that some of us recollect hearing the wrath of members of the SNP on their doorstep when elections were being fought. That was not a pretty sight. I will say no more than that. However, I do not want to be misunderstood. I will see him outside and tell him later.
I fear that whatever we do today will be misconstrued. Alex Salmond is full of slogans. I remember the slogan in the 1993 election: “Scotland free by ’93!”. Now it is: “Scotland free but not yet”. I do not think that we can achieve agreement. Alex Salmond has said that he wants not only to have the referendum but to set the date for it. I think he will achieve that date, but not by agreement. What happens if we in this Parliament decide—either in the Commons or here, or together—that we want a different date and a different question, and Alex Salmond says, “I am going to have mine anyway.”? How is he to be stopped—perhaps through the Supreme Court? That will easily take up the time until 2014—no problem at all. The dilemma is, I fear, that we really do not know how we are going to deal with this. How can we deal sensibly, reasonably and amicably with a party that is totally determined not to have any discourse whatever?
Although I agree with much of what the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, has said—in fact, I argued and made representations myself that we should not go ahead, and I even suggested giving the Government a guarantee that we would get the Bill on a date that would be necessary in order not to lose it—we have to go ahead and debate it on the basis of our good faith.
I sometimes think that the only way to make sure that Scotland does not become independent is to trumpet the fact that something like 54 per cent of people in England want Scotland to be independent. What will Alex Salmond do? He will say, “I am not going to be bullied by the English into going independent”. That is his whole attitude—bully, twist and turn. We will do our best, and perhaps the time is coming when we should simply get on with the Bill.
Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale
My Lords, before the noble Lord takes his seat, will he comment on what appears to be a strategy by the First Minister—the strategy that can be used by those who wish to move out of a block of flats, if I may use that analogy? The best way to get the move, as a tenant, is to annoy the neighbours. Perhaps a strategy is being followed here. Will the noble Lord join me in asking the people of England not to rise to that strategy?
Lord Hughes of Woodside
I absolutely agree and, although I do not know whether it is intentional, I think that Alex Salmond has deliberately set out to attack the English and blame them for everything. I guess that I will probably not be around if there is ever Scottish independence to see how the nationalists react when they are on their own and there is no one to blame. Yes, he wants to annoy people and we should not fall for that. When the referendum comes, I hope that people in England, Ireland and Wales get a say in some form or another. The case will be made very strongly that those of us who believe in the union and in Scotland certainly do not believe in antagonising the neighbours.
Lord Sewel
My Lords, for a number of reasons, I am not particularly keen for the 1998 Act to be amended, but I will accept it as we progress. However, the important thing is that nothing in the 1998 Act prevents this Parliament legislating in devolved areas. That is stated in the Act itself, but of course to get a proper relationship between the two Parliaments, we formulated what has come to be called the Sewel convention, whereby this Parliament will not normally legislate in a devolved area except with the agreement of the Scottish Parliament—I repeat, not normally. That is the relationship.
The need for a legislative consent Motion, which is founded upon the Sewel convention, was then extended to cover any legislation that affected the powers of Scottish Ministers. I think that that was done without any statement to Parliament. I have never been able to trace, apart from in a Cabinet Office note, how that extension occurred. In some way, that is why we are discussing the need for a legislative consent Motion for the non-referendum part of this Bill. I am attracted to the idea that we split the Bill and deal separately with issues relating to new powers for the Scottish Parliament—which I accept to all intents and purposes come under the requirement for a legislative consent Motion—and the bit about the referendum, because it does not require a legislative consent Motion as a referendum relates to the constitution. The constitution is a matter that is specifically reserved in the 1998 Act to this Parliament. Furthermore, if you read the debates on amendments that Members of the Opposition tabled at that time on the need for a specific reference to an independence referendum, the Secretary of State in the other place and I here made it absolutely clear that by reserving the constitution and everything to do with it, anything anticipatory and ancillary to a referendum is reserved as well.
Lord Sanderson of Bowden
Does the noble Lord agree that the time for an enabling Bill, because I think he is going down that route, is in the next Session of Parliament once Scotland has agreed to the consultation document—not our own one but the other one? Surely that is the time for this Parliament to consider and if necessary put through a Bill.
Lord Sewel
The noble Lord, as always, makes an interesting and important point. At this stage, I am not prepared to follow him completely, but it is something upon which we may wish to reflect as the debate progresses in our House.
Part of the confusion that we face on the whole business of a referendum, because the debate in Scotland for a long time assumed that it was within the powers of the Scottish Parliament to call a referendum on independence, is because—and we have seen this sort of tactic in a number of areas—the present First Minister has a very good knack of being able to make quite outlandish assertions, and make them so strongly and repeat them so many times that people come to accept their validity without any attempt to find out what the actual position is in reality and in law.
I hope that we progress with this Bill, but we must do so with a great deal of care.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
My Lords, although I agree with many of the arguments advanced by my noble friend Lord Forsyth, I am glad that he is not going to press his amendment to a vote.
The noble Lord, Lord Kerr, suggested that my noble friend Lord Sanderson was being a bit unkind in using the word “devious” about Mr Salmond, and I take his point. Can I rephrase that and be positive and say that Mr Salmond is successfully manipulative? That is a compliment. I have said repeatedly that members of Her Majesty's Government underestimate him at their peril. He is not known as “smart Alec” for nothing north of the border. I remind the House that in the previous two general elections in Scotland he did not campaign on independence. He did not even campaign under the banner of the Scottish National Party. He campaigned on the basis of, “Alex Salmond for First Minister”. That tells you a great deal about how we have got to where we are. That campaign was very successful and manipulative.
There is another area that we have rather passed over. Before any Bill is introduced, the Presiding Officer of the Scottish Parliament has to sign legislative competence, both under the Scotland Act and the European Convention on Human Rights. I used to take that matter very seriously indeed, and the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, will not mind me saying that there were occasions when I told the Executive that they could not expect me to act just as a rubber stamp. My legal advisers would send me back with a red box with perhaps 30 pages of their opinion on whether something was legislatively competent or not.
The referendum Bill, as outlined in Mr Salmond’s consultation paper yesterday, would have to come to the Scottish Parliament. Frankly, if I were Presiding Officer I would not sign a document that said that a referendum was within the competence of the Parliament because I do not believe that it is. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, may be correct that the Scottish Parliament can hold an expensive opinion poll, but it certainly cannot hold a referendum, for the reasons that the noble Lord, Lord Sewel, just advanced. However, remember what happened after the most recent election. After the first Scottish election, I was elected as the Presiding Officer, and I came from the Liberal Democrats. In the second Parliament, the Presiding Officer, George Reid, came from the Scottish National Party. In the third Parliament, the Presiding Officer, Alex Fergusson, came from the Conservative Party.
On any understanding of common sense and good will, it was the Labour Party's turn to provide the Presiding Officer after the most recent election, but of course Mr Salmond does not do graciousness. He does not do consensus. He had a majority, so a member of the SNP was appointed as Presiding Officer. I make no criticism of her whatever; I think she has behaved perfectly well, but it puts her in an impossible position and has shown again how Mr Salmond's record is one of being successfully manipulative—as did the use of Edinburgh Castle yesterday, to which the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, referred and as does the question in the consultation paper. We were told over the past few days by every newspaper that Mr Salmond was being so kind that he was going to allow the Electoral Commission to be in charge of the referendum, but when we read the paper we find that it is in charge of the administration but not in charge of the question. That, again, has been successfully manipulated.
I just say to the House that we must be extremely careful in all our dealings with the present Scottish Government. The paper published yesterday is run through with the theme of successful manipulation. I think we should proceed with the Bill. I take the view—as, I think, does my party—that it is not strong enough. We want greater devolution to the Scottish Parliament in future, but that is not on the agenda now. This is a Bill produced by consensus, and for that reason we should press ahead with it.
Lord Empey
My Lords, I have great sympathy with the proposal of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, because it appears that we are putting the cart before the horse. Nevertheless, I have to say that I do not think that the full implications of what is proposed have sunk in for people. I have a very simple question. If the people of Scotland were to leave the United Kingdom, how can we have a United Kingdom if one of the kingdoms has left? What will we be called? What is Great Britain without Scotland? What will that be called?
A lot of comment has been made about the First Minister personally. I think we should get away from that and forget about the individual. We are talking about the future of more than 60 million of us. We are literally all in this together in every sense. Think of the situation that my colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Browne, and I would be in. We would have a foreign country on one side of us and a foreign country on the other side of us. We would end up like West Pakistan. We are all hewn from the same rock. Imagine the circumstances we would be placed in. We have just spent decades overcoming nationalist terrorism and we have gradually, after years and years, managed to settle down our community. I do not wish to exaggerate, but if the Scottish nationalists were to succeed it could reignite the difficulties that we have just managed to overcome. I do not say that lightly.
Having spent many years negotiating with Irish nationalists of different stripes, I have to say that we have got to get the tone of the debate right. We should not hector nor bully the Scottish people. We must not, we cannot; if we do, we do so at our peril. We will not win the argument by saying, “You’re going to be impoverished here”. Any group of people who are determined enough can be independent. They may not have the same standard of living, but they can be independent and survive.
Lord Singh of Wimbledon
My Lords, I follow on the theme of the importance of the tone of the debate. We all know the story of the north wind and the sun, who had an argument about which could make a man take his coat off. The north wind tried first and blew and blew and the man pulled his coat tighter and tighter around him. Then it was the sun's turn, and as the sun came out the man felt happy and warm and took his coat off.
I do not think that aggressive language helps the tone of the debate. We have heard words such as “devious”. Even in the phrase “successfully manipulative”, qualifying the word “manipulative” does not help. If and when a referendum takes place, it is certain that the appeal of the nationalists will be to the history of the union in the first place and the history of fighting and coercion. The argument against that is to look to the interests of a new union based on respect and mutual understanding. If the debate is conducted in that way, I think we have a much better chance of preserving the union.
Lord Maclennan of Rogart
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Forsyth for moving his amendment to the Motion. It is an extremely valuable debate in which most of the relevant points have been made.
I remain concerned, and would like to hear my noble and learned friend’s views about the Scottish Parliament's failure to pass the legislative consent Motion in respect of the Bill. The difficulty is that such a Motion has not even been tabled—the point made by my noble friend—and its absence is crucial. Legislative consent needs to be affirmative; it cannot be presumed by its absence. In the absence of that Motion, Holyrood cannot even vote to reject the Bill, and its progress to the statute book here is as stymied as if there were a clear Motion opposing the Bill.
I understand that at least some members of the Scottish National Party, and of the committee in the Scottish Parliament that looked at the Scotland Bill, are interested in having discussions about its content. The leader of the Scottish National Party may be using his personal veto to prevent the Motion being tabled, but I noticed that Linda Fabiani, the committee’s chairman, asked the coalition Secretary of State to propose changes to the Bill. There has been no response that I am aware of to that request. I think that it would be appropriate to give a public response knowing what authority the Scottish Parliament has over the outcome of our deliberations. I wonder why we have not had some kind of indication.
The Bill is certainly based on broad cross-party consensus. It is possible, in the light of the changed circumstances, that that consensus may have moved on. Some may be more favourably disposed to even more fiscal devolution than was the Calman commission. I think that we ought to have that debate before we get tangled up in detail. We ought to have some idea of where the consensus now lies. I hope that my noble friend will be able to help us on that. It is an important Bill and a vital step along the path towards a fiscally decentralised United Kingdom.
However, there is another consideration that it is right to ventilate at the beginning of this process in the light of what has been said about the referendum. I believe that the bulk of the Scottish people are now not wholly satisfied with the devolution as it was enacted in 1998. There is quite a lot of evidence that there is a willingness—indeed a wish—to see more done. It does seem that, although this is a step in that direction, we could give the Scottish people a greater clarity and sense of the alternative to separation by having that discussion in the context of this Bill. That should certainly precede our deliberation of individual proposals and clauses. This is far too big an issue to have just a tinkering approach to the Bill, which seeks to implement Calman and in some ways goes beyond Calman. Can we hear from the Minister the Government’s thinking on those two points?
The Earl of Mar and Kellie
My Lords, when we considered the then Scotland Bill 12 or 13 years ago, the late Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish complained that the failure of the Scottish National Party to seek to appoint any Peers caused the Scottish debate to be similar to trying to debate with Banquo’s ghost. I think that the late Lord would agree that that was still a problem here.
Following on from what my noble friend said, this Bill is the result of a very considerable coalition, in the Calman commission, which brought about the Calman report. These parties ought to get on with delivering the Bill, which is fairly tame by comparison with what is actually wanted in Scotland.
Finally, in a single sentence, I hope that this House will try to avoid making the same mistakes it made in 1893 when considering Irish home rule.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, we have had a wide-ranging and diverse debate on this comparatively simple Motion, and we have the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, to thank for that opportunity. I have not been long in your Lordships’ House, but when discussing Scotland I have become used to hearing the same familiar voices—speaking on some of the same issues, I have to say.
This debate in its diversity has added something and I am particularly pleased to have heard from the noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord Singh, and, although it is a Scots voice, from the noble Lord, Lord Kerr. The points that they made individually and collectively should be listened to by my Scots colleagues. I was pleased that on Second Reading my noble friend Lord McConnell made a forward-looking speech. Scotland is in its politics, as I perceive it, beyond arguments that may well have served those of us who wanted to see the union held together. It is now looking for reasons to stay in the union rather than reasons why it cannot leave the union. The tone and content of how we conduct ourselves in these debates is crucial in the modern world. In my contribution to these debates, I intend to try at all times to describe a Scotland that is better for the people of Scotland and the people of the United Kingdom. Some strong strands or threads of debate are emerging already which suggest that there is an appetite in your Lordships’ House for this kind of debate and I am very pleased about that.
My second point is about a slight discord with my noble friend Lord Foulkes who is a very good personal friend as well as being a noble friend and a party colleague. My recollection of the general election on that terrible night in 1979 was not that his election was the highlight in Scotland, but that it was the election of my noble friend Lord Maxton to the constituency of Cathcart. It was a bright light in an otherwise very dull night for me. I hate to introduce that level of discord and I hope that my noble friend will forgive me, but that is certainly my recollection.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
It is a debatable point whether the achievement of getting rid of Teddy Taylor was better than getting rid of Jim Sillars. Perhaps we could discuss it outside.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
The margin of winning may have been very narrow but I certainly know where I stand. I am happy to debate with my noble friend outside but let us just say that there were very few bright lights that night and maybe we should savour them all.
My third point is that I am grateful to the Government, the usual channels or whatever the processes are, which I have never quite got to grips with in this place, for the level of cross-party engagement to manage the order of consideration of the Bill. Having been party to that agreement I shall resist the temptation to discuss referendums and questions relating to referendums in this contribution.
However, I will break that general rule in order to make one point. It struck me as very interesting—indeed, instructive—how quickly the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, who came to the aid of Alex Salmond, went from trying to persuade us that the proposed question was straightforward, via one very simple but telling intervention by my noble friend Lord Gordon, to a position of having to try to define one word of it in order to explain why it was straightforward. If I had had the opportunity to cross-examine him further, I suspect that we may well have got a long dissertation from him on that comparatively simple and straightforward question that would have left us all utterly confused about whether a yes or no answer would have made us any the wiser about the view of the people of Scotland. However, these are discussions for another day. Having agreed this with the Minister, as well as with other Members of the House and with the coalition Government, I shall resist the temptation to say more.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
The noble Lord is making a very interesting and important speech, and I do not want to ruin his thread, but I am not clear about what he is saying about legislative consent. Is he saying that because this process has been gone through, if the Scottish Parliament did not give legislative consent, we should go ahead anyway? Or is he saying that the Scottish Parliament ought to make up its mind and decide? Will he help me with that?
Lord Browne of Ladyton
I am grateful to the noble Lord for his question and I shall endeavour, if I may, to deal with those issues in the thread of my argument, because I will deal with them. I apologise if I am engaging your Lordships' House for a period of time on this, but it is important. I want to make this argument in its entirety so, if I may, I shall make it in the order in which I have thought about it.
Not only did the Calman review report, and not only did successive UK Governments welcome that report and start the process of implementing the recommendations—I say at this point that when it comes to the detail of the debate, I will be probing whether we have been true to Calman in some regards, because that is quite important—but we put this issue to the Scottish Parliament. I say “we put this issue”; the issue was put to the Scottish Parliament. We have a Bill that is largely faithful to Calman. Calman is, in my view, well argued and well explained. I know that all noble Lords do not agree with that, but we will have a debate about it. That Bill has been through a process in the Scottish Parliament, and this is important. On 10 March 2011, the Scottish Parliament, on a cross-party basis, which this time included the Scottish nationalists, voted in favour of a legislative consent Motion supporting this Bill—not precisely this Bill, but largely this Bill. It made certain recommendations and asked that the Government and the UK Parliament take those recommendations into account. In other words, it voted in favour of that with conditions, and Alex Salmond himself voted in favour of that Motion on the basis of those conditions, so we have a legislative consent Motion from the Scottish Parliament which Alex Salmond voted in favour of. Those conditions have largely been met. In fact, the amendments to the Bill, and the reason that the Bill arguably has to go back for a further legislative consent Motion, are substantially because of the conditions that the Scottish Parliament asked to be considered that are now reflected in amendments to the Bill. In 2011, Alex Salmond said that he was in favour of this Bill, if the Government did certain things with it. Substantially, those things have been done, as we will no doubt uncover when we debate this in Committee and on Report, and now there appears to be some question mark about whether the Parliament, which his party controls, is prepared to give that amended Bill consent. I do not know whether this is unparliamentary language in your Lordships' House, but it seems hypocritical in the extreme for him, having voted for it, to reject the Bill at this stage.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, I start by thanking my noble friend Lord Forsyth for moving this amendment. He questions whether I should—I think it has been very useful. I hope we will move into Committee, but it is helpful that that has been placed in the context of the current political debate. It is a very serious constitutional debate, not just for Scotland but for the wider United Kingdom, as other noble Lords, not least the noble Lord, Lord Empey, have indicated. The comments that have been made have helped to set that context.
I endorse what was said by the noble Lords, Lord Kerr, Lord Singh of Wimbledon and Lord Browne, about the importance of the tone of these debates. It is important that we conduct these debates in a very rational manner, putting and testing argument in a way that I think is typical of this House. The noble Lord, Lord Kerr, indicated that it was perhaps unfortunate that there are no Scottish National Party Peers here. I do not propose to answer for the Scottish National Party but I share his view. That is a decision that the party has taken. Our debates are possibly the poorer for it. Without embarrassing anyone by naming names, many of us can think of one or two Scottish National Party Members who would certainly add to the deliberations in your Lordships’ House. Of course, they might then be able to move some of the amendments on the recommendations of the Scottish Parliament committee. I know that my noble friend Lord Forsyth will move some of them. No doubt the business managers will have noted his comments about the Moses Room.
We certainly took on board the comments that had been made about the fact that it would not necessarily be desirable for Committee stage of this Bill to take place when there would still be live questions on amendments tabled in relation to the referendum on independence while the Government’s consultation was still outstanding. That consultation will close on 9 March. I am grateful to all who contributed through the usual channels that the House was able to agree a Motion on Tuesday, which has been widely welcomed, to enable our debates on Clause 10 to be taken last. At that time, I suggested to the House that any amendments relating to the referendum or independence should be best placed before Clause 10. Perhaps I may express my gratitude to noble Lords who have tabled, and in some cases retabled, referendum-related amendments before Clause 10 rather than to other parts of the Bill in order that we can fulfil the intention of the order of consideration that was put before the House. To repeat what I said on Tuesday, the Chief Whip will ensure that the last day in Committee is scheduled for the week of 12 March, which will allow us to debate the referendum in the light of the responses received during the consultation period.
That said, we immediately found ourselves debating issues relating to the referendum and the consultation documents. While I am tempted to follow the noble Lord, Lord Browne, down the road of saying, “Well, perhaps it is not appropriate to discuss these”, I think that it would be only courtesy at least to address some of the issues that have been raised. However, quite clearly, when the House resolves itself into Committee and we reach the amendments that have been tabled in relation to a referendum, we will have an opportunity to discuss those issues at greater length and in more detail.
I am very grateful for the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Browne, about the lecture I delivered at Glasgow University last week. I was able to confirm the very strong view of the United Kingdom Government that under the Scotland Act 1998 the Scottish Parliament does not have the legal competence to pass a referendum Bill. Things obviously flowed from that and we set out in our consultation why we believe that a referendum should be legal, fair and decisive, and the ways in which we might seek to do that.
It is fair to say that we have moved a long way in two weeks. First, I do not think that I had sat down in your Lordships’ House after having repeated the Statement before we had been given a preferred date by the Scottish Government for a referendum, for which many people had been asking for some considerable time. It appears to be the case that we have agreed that the preferred way to deliver the legislation for a referendum is by the two Governments working together. In their consultation paper yesterday, just as the United Kingdom Government expressed their preference for an order under Section 30 of the Scotland Act to take this matter forward, the Scottish Government indicated that their preference was for a Section 30 order.
Without going into the detail of the Section 30 order, I know that my noble friend Lord Sanderson expressed the importance of the role of the Westminster Parliament in constitutional issues. Of course, a Section 30 order not only has to be approved by the Scottish Parliament but has to be approved by both Houses of this Parliament, which means that, assuming we can make progress, any order which we would wish to bring before the House is one which this House would have an opportunity to consider. Clearly, that will be in mind as these discussions take place.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
Perhaps my noble and learned friend can help me on one point. He has been very generous in agreeing to reschedule the consideration of the Bill in order to accommodate the timetable of the Government’s consultation paper. Will he say something about how he proposes to deal with the problem created yesterday by the Scottish Executive’s consultation paper, which has a timetable that takes us beyond the period probably of this Session and therefore our ability to consider the Bill? How do we resolve that?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I was going to deal with that matter later. The noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, also made reference to the possibility of carrying over the Bill. Certainly, it is my understanding that the normal process for carrying over legislation is that it has not passed to the second House for consideration. Page 642 of the 24th edition of Erskine May states that,
“carry-over is restricted to Bills which have not yet left the House in which they originated”.
Therefore, to try to carry over this Bill would mean not so much carrying over but effectively starting the process again, which would significantly delay implementation. That is why I believe it is right to continue with the current timetable and I will come on later to explain why. It is important that we make progress on that.
My noble friend Lord Forsyth mentioned the fact that, as we are well aware, the consultation paper was published yesterday. The point is that the UK Government’s consultation paper indicates that while our preference is for a Section 30 order, there is also the possibility of using this Scotland Bill. Clearly, if we are to get this Bill passed in the current Session, it would not be possible to put it off indefinitely. I note that paragraph 1.7 of the Scottish Government’s consultation paper states:
“The UK paper sets out two possible mechanisms to transfer the power to hold a referendum on independence: an Order in Council under Section 30 of the Scotland Act 1998, or an amendment to the Scotland Bill currently under consideration by the House of Lords”.
It does so without any implied criticism. It just states that as a fact. We would wish therefore to make progress, although it is important for us to indicate that, but for the fact that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland has been stricken down with chicken pox, there would have been a meeting tomorrow between him and the First Minister on these matters. Unfortunately, it cannot take place tomorrow but we are very keen that it should take place—I do not think the First Minister is keen that it should take place while the Secretary of State has got chicken pox—as soon as possible. It is a welcome sign that that engagement is happening.
I will reflect on the points made by my noble friend and others about the role of the Electoral Commission. However, the UK Government have made it very clear that we believe that the Electoral Commission is a proper body to have oversight of the referendum, not least given its track record in monitoring referendums since its inception. We are clear that that is our preference.
A number of noble Lords raised whether the question proposed by the Scottish Government is fair. We will certainly wish to consider the consultation document carefully but we believe, as set out in our consultation paper, that the Electoral Commission should have a statutory role to review and to comment on the question. As others have pointed out in the press today, it is not immediately clear from the Scottish Government’s document that they propose that the Electoral Commission will have that role. I understand that the First Minister has indicated that this may have been an oversight of the document but we will obviously pay close attention to that. Clearly, it would be part of the substance of discussions.
Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale
The Minister advised that at some stage, perhaps not today but in the future, that process could involve looking at a variety of ways of posing the choice. Over the past few decades, it has not necessarily been the case in the United Kingdom that all referenda have included questions that had a yes or no answer. There have been referenda which posed a choice. I should like the Electoral Commission to be able to look at a variety of possibilities and not just those that have been chosen in more recent times.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I recall the kind of situation that the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, suggests. That emphasises that the Electoral Commission does have an important role to play. I cannot answer his specific question today, but it underlines more generally the important role of the commission. Further, as I have indicated, this will be a matter for discussions with the Scottish Government.
I have made the point that these discussions are taking place, but my noble friend also raised the question of what we should do with the Bill pending a legislative consent Motion in the Scottish Parliament. As the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, reminded us, the Scottish Parliament expressed its general support for the Bill, subject to some detailed concerns, in a vote in March 2011. Of course, the Scottish political landscape has changed since then, but as he rightly reminded us, those voting for the resolution included many Members of the current majority party in the Scottish Parliament, including the First Minister himself. He also indicated that there has been a response from the UK Government to the points made in the legislative consent Motion, specifically that provision has now been made in the Bill to allow bonds to be introduced in the future without the need for further legislation. There is a provision in the Bill to allow for reciprocal consultation between Governments in relation to electoral matters; provision to provide Scottish Ministers a role in the appointments to MG Alba; and provision to give Scottish Ministers responsibility for the disqualification rules for the Scottish Parliament. Obviously we will come to discuss Clause 17 at the next sitting of the Committee, if we get that far, which in a number of important respects is a response to the review undertaken by the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, at the request of the Scottish Government. So there have in fact been numerous comprehensive responses to the previous LCM.
I can assure the House that we are considering carefully the latest Scotland Bill Committee report. Its timing is clearly not a matter for the UK Government, but I can confirm that we are in continuing constructive discussions on the Bill with the Scottish Government. It might be premature to table a legislative consent Motion when these discussions are ongoing. I do not particularly want to say anything that might prejudice those discussions, but I can confirm that they have been happening on a constructive basis, and I hope that they will provide us with a way forward.
My noble friend Lord Maclennan asked about our response to Miss Fabiani, who is the convenor of the committee. I can confirm that on 20 January the Secretary of State wrote to her and again made it clear that constructive discussions are under way. He also indicated that in addition to reviewing the report of the Scottish Parliament, the Government would have to have regard to comments and contributions made in your Lordships’ House on the Bill. I think I am right in saying that the letter contained a paragraph which reminded the convenor of the Scotland Bill Committee that the Government do not have a majority in this House, and therefore we could not necessarily guarantee that any particular amendments would be carried. However, I hope that I can reassure noble Lords that there is constructive engagement on this.
It is also fair to say, as the noble Lord, Lord Browne, pointed out, that there is no clear timetable about when in the progress of a Bill a legislative consent Motion is passed. As I indicated, one was passed in the Scottish Parliament last March, which certainly meant that it was done before Report stage in the House of Commons.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
I have considerable respect for my noble and learned friend, and perhaps I may ask him to answer a straightforward question. In the absence of a legislative consent Motion, will the Government proceed with the Bill to Royal Assent, and implement it; or is it their position that without a legislative consent Motion, the Bill will not go ahead? It is important that Members of the Scottish Parliament know the score. As the noble Lord, Lord Browne, said, if one were a Member of the Scottish Parliament who, like the First Minister, was publicly committed to the Bill, one would not want to do anything that might prevent it getting on to the statute book. The fact that the committee report has not even been scheduled for a debate in the Scottish Parliament, when we want to take account of what it has to say, is an affront to democracy—which might be a strange thing to say in this unelected House.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, I sought to indicate that if discussions are going on, it might be premature to go ahead with a legislative consent Motion. That could prejudice the discussions when in fact there is an opportunity for agreement. I do not want to say anything that might be seen as a threat and jeopardise the position, as that would not be helpful to the process. We want to achieve a process in which a further legislative consent Motion can be passed by the Scottish Parliament, and I do not wish to say anything in the debate to prejudice that. I say that particularly as an engagement has taken place. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Browne, made clear, many powers that will be available in this Bill are ones that the Scottish Government have been calling for. The recently published document on infrastructure planning is actually predicated on carrying forward to fruition the borrowing powers which the Bill makes available.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
I am sorry to press my noble and learned friend. I am asking not about the negotiations but about the constitutional position. So far as the Government are concerned, is the constitutional position such that they will not proceed to put this legislation on to the statute book in the absence of a legislative consent Motion—or might they? I do not wish to prejudice the negotiations but I do want to have clarity on the status of legislative consent Motions. The noble Lord, Lord Sewel, gave us his view. I want to know the Government’s view on the status of legislative consent Motions. The Motions apply not only to the negotiations on this Bill but to Section 30 orders.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, the point on Section 30 orders is clear—it is in statute. Statute law requires the consent of the Scottish Parliament and of each House in this Parliament. A convention is just that, a convention; it is not enshrined in statute. However, as the noble Lord, Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale, said, if a convention has been operating for a period, you have to be careful about how you deal with it. I am not going to say anything today that might prejudice the way in which that convention is dealt with. Equally, although there is a legislative consent Motion outstanding, I very much hope that there will be a further one to which the House can have regard before we reach Report.
I shall come to the question asked by the right reverend Prelate in a moment. However, we may well have completed the Committee stage before we have the report of the Scottish Parliament committee. At one stage it seemed possible that we might receive it but, for reasons of timing, that has not happened. There is certainly nothing sinister about it, and I do not think that the Scottish Parliament necessarily expects that we would hold back our deliberations in Committee until the legislative consent Motion had been tabled and debated. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Sewel, is desperate to intervene.
Lord Sewel
I thank the noble and learned Lord for giving way. So far as I can remember, and I may well be wrong, a legislative consent order can be passed at any time up to immediately before the last amendable stage of a Bill in this Parliament.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
That accords with my recollection. Given the limitations on amendments tabled at Third Reading in your Lordships’ House, I am not going to get into a discussion on whether it would be before Third Reading or before Report. However, that—as enunciated by the noble Lord, Lord Sewel—accords with my understanding of the convention.
It is also important to note what has been noted by a number of contributors to this debate—that not only has the Bill been passed by the elected House, its content was included in the 2010 general election manifestos of the Labour Party, the Liberal Democrats and, substantially, the Conservative Party. Each party which had been party to the Calman commission process made a commitment in its respective manifesto to take it forward. It is quite a rare event in politics to be criticised for implementing your manifesto commitments. It rather stands things on their head if for some reason you are criticised for actually doing what you said you would do.
The noble Lord, Lord Browne, asked me as a member of the Calman commission—I suppose that my declaration of interest will apply throughout these proceedings—what response the commission received. I think that it is fair to say—there are other members of the commission present in your Lordships' House today—that we were not inundated with suggestions about where the boundary between devolved and reserved matters should fall. Many of the representations that we did receive—there were not a particularly large number—are reflected in the Bill before us. However, it was strongly represented to the Calman commission that the 1998 Act would have to be revisited because of the lack of financial accountability of the Scottish Parliament. That was understood when the Act was passed. We have had since 1999 a Parliament that has had complete discretion over how it spends the money it receives but precious little responsibility for raising it. I think that my noble friend Lord Steel said in a Donald Dewar lecture that a Parliament that was 100 per cent dependent on its revenue from another Parliament would have to address that issue. That is what we seek to do in the Bill. As the Calman commission proposals have been around since 2009—they elicited a White Paper from both the previous and the present Administrations—I suspect that many of them, to some extent, have already been banked. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Browne, indicated, these are very substantial proposals that should not be minimised. They will give to the Scottish Parliament a degree of financial accountability that does not exist at the moment. That is one of the reasons why we want to make progress.
The right reverend Prelate asked about the overlap of the Scotland Bill and a referendum campaign. I think it is fair to say that it has been known since last year’s election, and before the Commons debated the Bill on Report, that we would have a referendum campaign at some point. That is something that we have to take account of but it has not suddenly come up. It was clear in the Second Reading debate that we would go into a referendum campaign at some stage. However, the Bill’s powers are substantial and we should continue to make progress with it.
The noble Lord, Lord Empey, raised some important issues about the referendum campaign that will have to be debated, as the substance of that independence debate, once the process is resolved. I think that many of us look forward to engaging in that debate and making a positive case for Scotland being part of the United Kingdom. The noble Lord, Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale, warned that the First Minister was perhaps taking the view that the way to get rid of bad tenants is for them to annoy the neighbours. It is a good analogy up to a point, but the point is that we are not tenants. We helped to build the house and we co-own it. That is why the union is so valuable to us.
My noble friend’s Amendment 85 will allow us to return to these matters later in Committee. As I indicated earlier, although the Scottish Parliament has considered the Bill, your Lordships' House should be able to consider it in detail too. I am conscious that there are a number of your Lordships present who were here during the debates in 1998. I think that those debates well served the Scotland Bill, which became the Scotland Act 1998. The kind of deliberation that your Lordships can bring to a constitutional measure such as this is an important part of the process. I encourage noble Lords to continue deliberations on the Bill, and I hope that we can now proceed to do so in Committee.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, we have had a really good debate. My view that the debate would take half an hour has not worked out entirely right—we have had two hours and 17 minutes of debate. It is fantastic that we have had such a turnout given that the debate was scheduled for the Thursday after Burns Night when many of us would have been in Scotland and perhaps not as bright and breezy as people obviously were this morning.
I do not propose to respond to all the points but I thank everyone who contributed to the debate. I am not sure whether I should thank the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, for praising me for acting against my party interest in taking the view that I do on the union. Being serious, I think that we all recognise that the future of the United Kingdom is an issue that is above party, as this debate has demonstrated.
My noble friend Lord Sanderson talked about competition between consultation papers. Although I believe in competition, in this case it may have led to a certain disorder in the marketplace. It is really disappointing that the idea of carry-over proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, cannot work, because that would have been a solution. I have to say to my noble friend Lord Sanderson that the last thing we want is another Bill to deal with a referendum in the next Session of Parliament, when we will by all accounts have to deal with the future of this House, which I think will take on considerable time and turbulence.
The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, is right to be concerned about language, but I just ask him to spend half an hour on the internet looking at what the cybernats write about many of those who have spoken in this debate. If he could convey those views about language to them, it would be very much appreciated.
The noble Lord, Lord Kerr, argued that it was important that there should be nationalist Members in this Chamber in order to put their point of view, but he seemed to have a bit of a wobble when I suggested that UKIP might be treated in the same manner. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester made the key point that it is important that this debate is seen to be carried out respectfully. That means that the consent of the Scottish Parliament is fairly important, a point made by the noble Lord, Lord McConnell. He criticised the Prime Minister for intervening perhaps a little late in the debate. That might be a fair criticism, but I do not think that any of us could have expected the First Minister to have made quite so many changes so quickly in response, so perhaps we have caught up with a timetable that would otherwise have applied.
The noble Lord, Lord Hughes, who I believe celebrated a major birthday recently, and who has a long experience in these matters, reminded us of the—I shall be careful with my language—flexible view on devolution which the First Minister has taken. He has been against it; then, in 1998, he campaigned with the Labour Party for it; then he went back to Scotland in 2004 and denounced devolution as a disaster; and now he is the high priest of devo-max, because nobody else seems to be talking about it.
I have great sympathy with the noble Lord, Lord Sewel. He shares with the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, the fate of having something named after him which he is going to spend the rest of his life denying any responsibility for.
It was very important to have the contribution of my noble friend Lord Steel, who was the first Presiding Officer of the Scottish Parliament. Of course, in the original Scotland Act, it was thought that the electoral system had been designed so that no one party would be able to get a majority, and that it was unnecessary to have a House such as your Lordships' House to be a check and balance against the Executive, because the committee system would ensure a balance. Well, it has now turned into almost a one-party Parliament. The nationalists have a majority in the committees and there is no check and balance. Therefore the role of this House is even more important. The fact that the current Presiding Officer was taken from the same party underlines the lack of sensitivity to the point so well made by my noble friend.
In his address, the noble Lord, Lord Empey, reminded us of how important it is to get these matters right, and that the balkanisation of Britain is a matter that concerns every part of the United Kingdom.
My noble friend Lord Maclennan reminded us that absence of consent is not acceptance. I agree. The noble Earl, Lord Mar and Kellie, referred to the absence of the SNP as Banquo’s ghost. I plead with him to find another analogy because, of course, Banquo’s successors inherited the crown.
Finally, in an excellent speech—I hope this is not damaging for him—the noble Lord, Lord Browne, set out the answers. He reminded me of what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine of Lairg, said about the West Lothian question in response to my pressing him on where we were on the legislative consent Motion—a view which was echoed by my noble and learned friend in his excellent reply—which was that, with some questions, the answer to the question is not to ask the question. So on the basis that we do not ask the question now and make progress in the interests of what I accept is the democratically expressed views of the Scottish people, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, it may be for the convenience of the House if I explain an arrangement that has been agreed in the usual channels to facilitate a short break for those who have taken part in at least the preparations for the Scotland Bill Committee so far. We will start the debate on Clause 1 stand part and the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, will make his speech. At the conclusion of that speech the House will resume. It will finish its Committee considerations for 45 minutes, during which time other business in the name of my noble friend Lord Dykes will be taken. At the end of that 45 minutes, whoever wishes to follow on from the stand part speech of the noble Lord, Lord Browne, will be in a position to do so.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, for obvious reasons, I shall be brief. The purpose of this opposition to Clause 1 standing part of the Bill is to probe what appears to be a selective implementation by the Government of the Calman commission’s recommendations. I say “appears” because I am not entirely sure, and I shall explain why I use that word.
Clause 1 devolves to Scottish Ministers powers that currently reside with the Secretary of State for Scotland pertaining to the administration and conduct of Scottish Parliament elections. However, it appears that it does not devolve these powers in their entirety. The purpose of this debate is simply to probe why it is that the Government have sought to retain the reservation of some of these powers apparently contrary to the recommendations of Calman. I can assure noble Lords that I do not intend to press this issue to a vote. However, I hope to draw out from the Minister a more comprehensive account than I have been able to ascertain so far of the rationale behind the Government’s choice of powers for devolution in Clause 1. It may be simply that all the powers which are clearly about the administration and conduct of Scottish Parliament elections have been devolved and that those that are, in part or totally, about the electoral system have not. If that is the answer and it can be explained, I will be happy to accept it.
It is my understanding that Clause 1 devolves responsibility for the conduct and administration of Scottish Parliament elections and for the consequences of irregularities. However, it reserves powers, particularly, in relation to the registration of electors, the abandonment of a constituency poll or notice of it being countermanded, the procedure for filling regional MSP vacancies—an issue to which we will return in another amendment—and the application and modification of electoral law. I would be grateful if the Advocate General could confirm whether this is an exhaustive list. If it is not, what else is reserved?
The Calman commission made a clear recommendation in paragraph 5.1 of its report that the powers of the Secretary of State for Scotland relating to the administration of elections to the Scottish Parliament should be devolved. However, the commission did not discriminate between such powers as to their suitability for devolution. In contrast, it stated explicitly that it was unconvinced that there are strong constitutional or practical arguments against their devolution, particularly when considering that responsibility for local authority elections is already devolved to the Scottish Parliament. This view was widely supported across civic Scotland and by political parties.
By choosing to devolve powers over certain administrative functions but not others, the risk is that Clause 1 will continue the fragmentation of responsibility for Scottish elections, which is precisely what Gould, among others, identified as being the key factor in the chaos of the Scottish parliamentary and local government elections on 3 May 2007—chaos which, as we all know, resulted in the disenfranchisement of in excess of 100,000 Scottish voters. We must avoid that at all costs.
From the Scottish Parliament’s point of view, both its previous and present Scottish Bill Committees recommended that the list of powers that remain reserved in this area should be reduced. In particular, the committees highlighted powers over the procedure for filling regional seat vacancies and rules relating to disqualification as more properly residing with Scottish Ministers.
It is vital that the lessons from the 2007 elections are heeded and that the responsibility and rules surrounding Scottish elections are rationalised. The devolution of powers over the administration of Scottish parliamentary elections is a natural reflection of the Scottish Parliament’s maturity as a democratic body and of the principle that matters should be determined at the level closest to those—the Scottish people—who are affected by them unless good reason can be seen otherwise. I have initiated this debate simply to ask the Minister to set out good reasons for each of the powers for the administration of elections that remain reserved so that the House may judge whether they are compelling reasons and whether we are being faithful to Calman.
Taxation: Avoidance
(12 years, 10 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Dykes
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they are taking regarding tax avoidance by business figures in the United Kingdom.
Lord Dykes
My Lords, I am grateful to the usual channels for providing time for this debate and to the Treasury Minister for coming to the Front Bench at this time. I apologise to him that it is lunchtime—although a slightly late lunchtime because of the previous debate—and I welcome his visit to deal with this important and thorny matter. He is a very busy Treasury Minister and I wish that I could have saved him having to do without lunch on this occasion. I hope he can catch up with that later.
I declare an historic interest as a former member of the London Stock Exchange for many years and as a partner in a leading institutional stock broking firm, as well as a shareholder in other former City interests.
The title of the debate deliberately uses the word “avoidance” because of the grey area of avoidance leading into illegal evasion as well. The title focuses deliberately on the behaviour of business representatives and groups because that really covers almost the whole field. Most wealthy individuals, as well as companies, who seek to lower their tax liabilities tend to arrange schemes through accountants and other professional advisers. Equally, however, it would be reprehensible if non-business sector individuals were either avoiding tax unfairly or evading tax illegally through their own decisions without advisers. I have sought to raise this issue for some time because of the widespread public concern that one hears here, there and everywhere that improper tax avoidance is widespread in the UK. These matters are very sensitive right now because of the bank bonus season as well—we of course assume that our senior bank director colleagues declare and pay tax properly. Bank bonuses and whether they are justified are not within this subject. It is because rumours are so often an inadequate substitute for facts that HMG need to answer questions from Members of Parliament to allay concerns.
Of course, the concept of unfairness in the tax system is hard to grasp. The public as a whole has a strong and maybe unfair impression that ordinary taxpayers, mostly but not all subject to the deduction at source system, do not have the sophisticated advantages of professional and corporate taxpayers to soften what some people regard as the hammer blows of brutal tax demands. Add to this the widespread feeling that, unfortunately, our colleagues in the main part of the coalition seem psychologically far more interested in giving lower-income individuals rather a rough time by cutting into their social benefit payments than pursuing their—dare I say?—friends in the world of business over tax dodging, then we have an explosive political cocktail about the relentless growth of the unequal society. That is mercifully nowhere near the lamentable position in the USA, with its by-now medieval inequalities, obliging even Warren Buffett to complain yet again recently. Personally, I have a cousin in California who is a member of the Libertarian Party that regards any tax apart from defence spending and foreign affairs as positively poisonous and communistic.
In the excellent debate on financial crime legislation launched by my noble friend Lady Williams on 17 March last year, I raised what I called the “sad” case of Sir Philip Green—that is at col. 385 of Hansard—who was able to channel his £1 billion-plus dividend from his brilliant and skilful reorganisation of BHS through his wife as a resident of that little territory, Monaco, and thereby avoided paying, I think, £200 million or more in income tax on the dividend. Far from condemning outright this pathetic example of sheer greed, the new coalition Government later hired him as a totally ineffective adviser on efficiency in government. We do not find it hard to imagine how ordinary struggling families feel when they see such goings on in Britain. Could HMG ask HMRC to contact Sir Philip to see whether he could persuade his wife to reconsider and possibly make a voluntary donation to the Revenue as a gesture of social solidarity in these tough times, especially since apparently several hundred Topshop stores are now to close because of the fierce recession? No wonder this sad little saga spawned the UK Uncut movement.
I intend to stay within the time limit of my speech but unfortunately the monitor Clock is incorrect and I do not know when I started. I hope it will be adjusted as quickly as possible.
Of course, I expect the Minister to say on these matters, as ever, “We do not comment on individual cases”. I understand that, but the lack of accountability then speaks volumes and the public can draw their own conclusions. At least he might today try to reassure us that the colossal tax dodging that apparently occurs routinely in Britain nowadays is being dealt with. Despite some enlargement of the personnel at HMRC in recent times, it is by all accounts still struggling manfully—and womanfully, I assume—to cope with the huge backlog of dodgy schemes.
Why is it, as I hinted in that same debate in March last year, that if, for instance, you go to dinner parties in large houses in Wiltshire or Oxfordshire—I do not know about Chadlington but maybe elsewhere, too—around the table are people who appear to be in the UK a great deal but who scoff when someone says, “I pay full taxes”? Perhaps they are just boasting and making it up, but all sorts of rumours swirl around.
The absence of definitional precision helps that process of confusion and the shrugging of shoulders. Hence statistics on tax avoidance are fiercely contested and the interpretative basis is elusive. In a court of law for example, the judges presumably base their findings on what Parliament intended in any laws and regulations. That examination alone can spawn huge fees for yet more lawyers and accountants. For instance, I am assured by friends in so-called professional circles that a large number of senior broadcasters in both the public sector—that is, the BBC—and private TV and radio services routinely have corporate plans of their own that offer much bigger offsets than personal taxpayers can claim paying tax as individuals, even though these broadcasters are of course individuals. Can the Minister help here and give us any information that the Government might have to hand?
HMG have regularly referred to what they consider to be more than a £40 billion tax gap—“gap” is the word I use here. On the assumption that it would be somewhat higher because HMRC struggles to cover all cases, if everyone who should pay paid up—like ordinary mortals—that would cover a good chunk of the deficit. However, we are struggling philosophically because HMG keep banging on about corporation tax being too high. Is a 50 per cent income tax rate so excessive when it starts at such a high level? We must be careful in this country to avoid the worst horrors of the Tea Party lunacy in America that progressive taxes are worse even than communism or a proper national health service.
What is the latest development on redress policies in the many other secretive tax havens dotted around the world, partly as a result of our historical British Empire? Are the UK and other authorities locally in those areas getting to grips with the most severe abuses—and abuses in general?
Our newspapers, reflecting the reality that most—with some honourable exceptions—are owned and run by non-UK taxpaying moguls who live all over the place but not the UK, probably do not want to run too many stories about UK tax dodgers. They prefer benefit fraud, as in the Daily Mail. That is a much more attractive story for them to run. Naturally, the practical difficulties for the authorities here in dealing with these problems are huge. I sympathise entirely and once again express appreciation for what the Minister and his colleagues have been trying to do in the Treasury.
We know all too well from the world financial crisis of 2007-08 that business anywhere is truly international, global and incredibly complicated. It is hard to keep up with the worldwide legions of tax advisers—often themselves multimillionaires as well. Look how enormous the biggest UK-origin accountancy firms—the famous names—have become as worldwide entities, usually in very large towers. I remember the furore last spring when it was discovered that the Treasury had missed out on some £17 billion of tax due from companies disappearing, along with their directors, or banks and other groups not paying their taxes properly. More than half a million companies were dissolved in 2009-10, with most removed from the official register because they did not even bother to file accounts. Indeed, the Oxford University Centre for Business Taxation estimated last year that nearly a million companies failed to pay tax at all, even though presumably only a small proportion of those were not trading. Richard Murphy, a well-known director of the consultants Tax Research LLP, calculated that the total tax gap in Britain two years ago was over £120 billion. No one knows whether that is correct, but it is obviously likely to be significantly higher than the £40 billion mentioned by the Government on several occasions recently.
I hope that the Minister can reassure the House today that these estimates are ahead of the true figures. My anxiety is that, in reality, not even the Treasury, hardly known for its huge competence in guiding the ever-faltering British economy in recent decades, actually knows the truth. In replying to the debate, I hope that the Minister will also refer to the tax treatment of the overseas subsidiaries profits in UK-registered corporations which seem to be of special artificial help to the banks in recent times.
Finally, he may generously wish to guide us with his analysis of the cash-only economy—the black economy—which obviously deprives the Inland Revenue part of HMRC of yet more tax revenues, and how the authorities have managed to deal with VAT fraud and evasion. I am sure that the Government do not wish to give the impression that they are much keener on cuts in services than getting in more tax from what is apparently regarded in the City—some people repeat this again and again—as an army of tax dodgers in Britain.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
I am sorry to interrupt my noble friend and that the Clock was not working properly. I thought he would find it helpful to know that he has exceeded his 10 minutes.
Lord Dykes
Because of the Clock, I conclude by referring to Danny Alexander, Chief Secretary to the Treasury, who said on Tuesday that tax dodgers have nowhere to hide and that we will get them. I would be grateful if the Minister commented on that comment from the other place.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
My Lords, it is perhaps a measure of how the subject of this debate is viewed that only around 10 Members of the House are present, apart from the speakers. I fear that the whole issue of tax avoidance or evasion—I do not see the difference—is of the most fundamental importance to this country at this time. Some of the greatest traditions of our country revolve around integrity and equality before the law. In the legal profession that I started in, in 1957, there was no tax evasion or avoidance industry. It is a creature of the last 30 or 40 years. Indeed, the lengths of tax avoidance would have been to tell your farmer client that he had better give away some land at least seven years before he died, so that he did not have to pay inheritance tax. In the 1970s, we had the growth of what one would call highly artificial tax schemes. Some may remember the name Rossminster. That was the start of what has become an international industry.
There are tens of thousands of lawyers and accountants who do nothing but avoid tax for their highly paying clients. While the vast majority of British accountants and lawyers try to play fair and will not stretch the rules beyond reasonability, they are under pressure because an increasing number of professionals will stretch the law beyond reasonability and will take artifice to byzantine and ludicrous lengths. We had a little hint of that when Mr Diamond gave evidence to the Select Committee and purported not to know how many subsidiary companies Barclays used in avoiding tax in this country. I believe that it paid only 1 per cent of its gains in tax in the UK. Someone was able to inform the committee afterwards that there were literally hundreds and hundreds of subsidiaries spread across the various tax havens, which enabled that state of affairs to come about.
What sort of society is it in which the CEO of Barclays this year, last year or the year before can earn £22 million with his bonus and earn more in a day than a state-registered nurse on an acute ward in one of our hospitals earns in a year? That is so contrary to any concept of a fair or decent society that I put it to the House that the issues that we are talking about run to the very roots of our society, its culture and nature.
When I started again in the law, solicitors and accountants were what were called pillars of the community. For a complex of reasons, I am afraid that that is no longer the case. There is a quite staggering disconnect between those who work in the City of London and civic society at large. Very few indeed contribute anything to civic society, except their taxes. I believe with a passion that we need to have a renaissance of citizenship in this country, a restoration of a sense of community, national and local, because as a lawyer I have to tell the House that you cannot legislate for virtue. We have already gone a long way down the road of regulation in trying to stop loopholes, as they are called. The statute book has got more and more complicated and, with a great irony, has removed even further from the minds of professionals in this world the sense that they should play fair and have some sort of civic justice in the work they do.
The limited company, too, has been a great engine of demoralisation, to use that word in its literal sense. How few board members these days feel able to say, “I’m sorry, I think that’s wrong—I don’t think this company should be doing that.”? Indeed, a friend of mine whom noble Lords would know, who is a chairman of public companies, made this point around the board table not long ago in relation to some new tax scheme thought up by the company’s advisers. The board concurred, but the next day he had a visit from the company secretary, who said, “You know, you acted illegally yesterday in rejecting out of hand the scheme that was put up”. That is but one small instance of a demoralised corporate world.
Where amorality rules, it is not able to withstand for long the creep towards immorality when the gains are big enough. I shall give an example, although it is probably unfair to KPMG, because all its competitors have their own dark secrets. In 2006-07, KPMG was exposed in the US as having been party to fraudulent tax schemes that enabled its clients fraudulently to avoid paying $2.5 billion of US tax. In a plea bargain, the partners managed to avoid being individually criminally prosecuted, as in my view they should have been, by agreeing to pay penalties of $450 million. This is a great firm reduced to ignominy because there is no longer any culture of integrity sufficiently strong to withstand the huge pressures and temptations of the tax avoidance industry. And of course the voice that says, “If we don’t do it, our competitors will”, is a powerful one.
What can we do about it? I am convinced that we have to do something about it, because I am convinced that we are destroying the very seedbed of our proud civic traditions in this country. To whom do ordinary young people look as good examples these days? Unless we do something about this, we will find more of the statistics revealed yesterday by the University of Essex, which did some long-term research on attitudes of the public to honesty. The university has now established a centre for the study of integrity on a longitudinal, cross-departmental basis. That research revealed that the 20 to 25 age group has a radically different view of honesty from the 60 to 65-year age group. The graph is a straight stairway. The evidence is complicated and difficult to interpret, but it is that the standards of probity and attitudes to honesty in our great country are in decline. I am sure that everyone here today still feels proud, because we still have standards of probity in public life that are the envy of most countries. However, when standards are in head-long decline, it behoves us in this place most of all to recognise it and do something about it.
Of course, the great stain on our escutcheon was the extensive expenses fraud in both Houses. We suffer from that—and the reckoning of the evidence from the University of Essex is that 91 per cent of the public feels that the politicians in this country are fairly corrupt. They do not trust us—and trust and fairness are the pillars of a good society. Without either of them you cannot have a good society. I am sure that all of us feel passionate about trying to bring about a good society as far as we can.
I end by restating my conviction that there is a strict limit to what we in Parliament can do. Far too much of the time, the citizens of this land look to us to put things right, and far too much of the time we pretend that we can. In this broad matter of honesty in taxation, it is down to individual people and businessmen to assert their moral autonomy for the public good.
Lord Eatwell
My Lords, the issues raised by the noble Lords, Lord Dykes and Lord Phillips, have recently been the subject of two important reports. First, the report of the Public Accounts Committee into tax disputes, published on 20 December last year, revealed what can only be described as a scandal. It demonstrated a quite extraordinarily cosy relationship between HMRC and major companies, particularly international companies, in the determination of tax liabilities. It also demonstrated a failure to follow proper procedures in the resolution of tax disputes, and a consistent bias towards the favourable treatment of large companies compared with small companies and the ordinary taxpayer.
Everyone in this country who is settling their tax assessment this month, knowing that they will incur a fine and interest charges if they do not pay up on 31 January on the dot, will be astonished to discover that large companies may be given 10 years to settle their tax obligations. They will also be furious that up to £20 million in interest has been lost because of HMRC errors, while, for reasons that are still not clear, the department decided it would not reopen negotiations with the relevant company—a decision that it appears was taken without legal advice. The PAC report says that,
“the Department did not even take the most basic step of making its own note of meetings with the company concerned, relying instead on the record kept by the company”.
To compound this record of complacency and connivance, the department failed to be open with the PAC investigation and was,
“less than clear and consistent in the evidence”,
given to the PAC and to the Treasury Select Committee in another place.
It is important to remember that HMRC is, quite rightly, a non-ministerial department, thereby removing Ministers from any suspicion of involvement in individual taxpayers’ affairs, but this scandal goes beyond matters that can be remedied at arm's length by more effective management and the appointment of extra Revenue commissioners. It strikes at the very heart of the fair and impartial management of the tax system. It reveals systemic failures that have resulted in unfair and partial treatment verging on favouritism, and it demands the exercise of ministerial responsibility, for it undermines public confidence in the probity of government and the integrity of the Revenue.
If the failings exposed by the PAC were an isolated set of events—an aberration—the measures taken so far by HMRC to put its house in order just might be regarded as sufficient. Regrettably, this is not the case. As we have heard from the noble Lords opposite, it is a widely held view that tax avoidance is rife in this country, and that wealthy individuals and large companies that can afford sophisticated tax advisers can avoid attacks by abusive means.
The term “abusive means” has been defined by Mr Graham Aaronson QC as,
“contrived and artificial schemes which are widely regarded as an intolerable attack on the integrity of the UK’s tax regime”.
This quotation is taken from a report entitled A Study to Consider whether a General Anti-Avoidance Rule should be Introduced into the UK Tax System, published in November last year, which was authored by Mr Aaronson and commissioned, to give them due credit, by Her Majesty’s Government. I applaud the initiative. Mr Aaronson concludes that a general anti-avoidance rule should be introduced, and proposes practical means by which this might be done. In his report, he argues that certainty in the tax system makes an important positive contribution to the economic and business environment. The presence of tax loopholes, and their exploitation by the unscrupulous, undermines that certainty. Moreover, competitive pressure forces firms to adopt more and more elaborate tax avoidance measures.
Competitive advantage can be gained by companies that go down the tax-abusive route, and hence firms that attempt to take a high moral stand, as the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, points out, are placed at a competitive disadvantage and may be eliminated from the marketplace. All must join the race to the bottom. Tax avoidance by businesses therefore undermines certainty, forces firms to adopt the tax-avoidance policies of the lowest common denominator, undermines any perception of fairness in the tax system and imposes a dead-weight loss on the economy by spawning a socially useless tax avoidance industry. It is damaging not just to the Revenue, but to the performance of the economy as a whole.
The source of this pernicious burden on our economy, the foundation of the tax avoidance industry, is the complexity of the tax system. It is complexity that by its very nature creates the exceptions and loopholes that can be legally exploited by the enthusiastic, well resourced tax avoider. If we are to tackle the disease rather than the symptoms, complexity should be the target. An important reason for the complexity of the tax system is that Governments attempt to manipulate behaviour via tax allowances and reliefs to incentivise people to behave in a particular way—to invest in new businesses or to undertake more R&D, or to recycle waste, or whatever. What is remarkable is that years of academic study have demonstrated that very few of these incentives actually work. Tax allowances to stimulate investment, for example, do not tend to result in more investment. Instead, they are a subsidy to investment that would have taken place anyway.
Another important source of complexity is a government belief that it is appropriate to differentiate between revenues from different sources, so that benefit deemed to derive from capital gains, or, more scandalously, from carried interest, is taxed differently from benefit derived from income. The treatment of interest on debt as a cost, and hence being tax deductible, is a major factor distorting the funding of business in this country. All this is a rich source of tax avoidance. Then of course there are the tax benefits handed out to specific social groups with the most powerful lobbying voices—the non-doms come immediately to mind.
Whether it derives from good intentions, perceived policy objectives, or mere cowardice and/or patronage in the face of the powerful and well funded, complexity is the fundamental source of avoidance. Without tackling complexity, the avoidance industry will never be significantly reduced. I therefore applaud the establishment by the Government of the Office of Tax Simplification and look forward, in hope rather than expectation, to its efforts bearing fruit. In the mean time, while we wait for the simplified promised land, Mr Aaronson concludes that all current approaches to curb tax avoidance,
“are not capable of dealing with some of the most egregious tax avoidance schemes”.
He might have added, if he had had the PAC report before him, that all attempts to limit tax avoidance are undermined if there exists the cosy relationship between the HMRC and big business identified in the PAC report.
With the PAC report and Mr Aaronson's report before him, the Minister must address a number of questions. First, when did Ministers first know of the matters identified in the PAC report? Were they fully informed, or have they made further investigations? What have their investigations, if any, revealed about further abuse and, if so, what sort of abuses? What action do the Government intend to take to correct the systemic deficiencies in the HMRC? Is it not time for a full investigation into the practices and substance of the taxation of large companies, in order to re-establish public confidence in the probity of government and of the Revenue? Secondly, do the Government accept the conclusions of Mr Aaronson's report? When do they intend to introduce a general anti-avoidance rule, with the institutional support outlined by Mr Aaronson? Thirdly, when can we expect a report from the Office of Tax Simplification that deals specifically with business taxation and tax avoidance?
Confidence in the tax system is, as noble Lords opposite have said, fundamental to our democracy. If confidence in the fairness and probity of the state is lost, effective revenue raising is undermined—colourful examples, perhaps from the Mediterranean, can be imagined. The issues identified in the Public Accounts Committee report and in Mr Aaronson’s report demand an urgent response. I hope we will hear from the Minister today the concrete steps that the Government intend to take to curb abusive behaviour towards the tax system. If practical steps are not forthcoming, the Government will have some explaining to do to this House and to the British people.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
The noble Lord raised some extremely pertinent points about HMRC, but does he agree that the Government reducing the staffing at HMRC over the next few years by 12,000 is scarcely likely to increase the effectiveness of tax collection?
The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Dykes for giving us an opportunity to discuss the important issue of tax avoidance and to remind the House of what the Government are doing to clamp down on it. However, we should put the whole subject into perspective. It is an important topic. There have been few speakers, but a considerable degree of heat has been thrown at the topic that may occasionally have obscured the light.
We must remember what we need to achieve in this area, particularly in the current economic situation, when we are faced with reducing the largest peacetime deficit on record. It is of course more important than ever and fair that everyone, whether businesses or individuals, pays their fair share of tax, but we have to remember that we must keep this country competitive. We are competing in a global economy, so we have to have a tax regime that is competitive for businesses, is fair for individuals and incentivises individuals to get off benefits and into work. Yes, the tax-avoidance question is critical, but we have to remember the wider context in which it operates.
A fair tax system means closing the tax gap and ensuring, as I have said, that businesses and individuals pay in full what they owe. My noble friend Lord Dykes asked questions about the size of the tax gap and whether we really understand its make-up. The figures for 2009-10 are that the tax gap was estimated at 7.9 per cent of liabilities, £35 billion in cash terms, which means that HMRC collects over 90 per cent of all the tax that is theoretically due. We have to do better. HMRC has to do better and it is working on that—I shall come on to that shortly—but, if someone heard this debate in isolation, they might think that the performance of HMRC was much worse. It collects over 90 per cent of all the tax that is theoretically due, or £468.9 billion in revenue in 2010-11. We should also remind ourselves that the latest figures show an overall decrease in the overall net tax gap of £7 billion from 2008-09 to 2009-10.
We should therefore be cautious about the methodology, but the 8 per cent tax gap in the UK compares well with other economies. For example, the USA’s tax gap is 14 per cent and, to take a country in Europe that is widely regarded as a model of fiscal rectitude, in Sweden the tax gap is 10 per cent.
The Government’s approach to tackling avoidance builds on HMRC’s anti-avoidance strategy. There are three core elements to that approach: prevention, detection and counteraction, with a clear focus on preventing avoidance before it can occur. I say “avoidance”; I do not of course share my noble friend Lord Phillips of Sudbury’s contention. I know that it is nothing new that he feels strongly that avoidance and evasion are the same thing.
Over the past 20 months we have demonstrated real progress. In answer to the challenge from the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, about the concrete actions that we are taking, in the most recent Finance Act we closed down a range of avoidance schemes to bring in yields of around £1 billion a year over the course of this Parliament. Only this month, we acted quickly to stop a particularly significant avoidance scheme aimed at artificially exploiting an income tax relief. That scheme posed a significant risk to the Exchequer, and our quick action ensured that this risk did not materialise. That is the sort of concrete action that we will take.
In answer to the questions about whether HMRC has the capacity to deal with the threat of avoidance, the Government have underlined our commitment to tackling avoidance with the reinvestment in HMRC, which I am sure noble Lords are aware of, of over £900 million, which should bring in around £7 billion each year by 2014-15 in additional tax—again, concrete additional targeted action.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
Can my noble friend then reassure the House on the figure about which I asked earlier and say that the reduction in staffing of 12,000 will not affect the front-line effort to reduce tax avoidance/evasion?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, as I am sure my noble friend would recognise, all government departments are having to tighten their belts; otherwise, the deficit is not going to be tackled. I hope to reassure him by explaining where HMRC is focusing its efforts. The recruitment of over 1,200 staff in new posts to tackle non-compliance is significantly upping HMRC’s efforts in this area and will bring in significant additional revenue in each tax year, so the answer to his question is yes.
The customer relationship model that HMRC uses has considerably improved its ability to identify risk and to handle these issues. The report by the National Audit Office on HMRC’s 2010-11 accounts, which underlay one of the reports referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, noted that HMRC’s high-risk corporate programme has brought in a yield of over £9 billion and that it contributed to reduced avoidance activity by major companies. The investment is there. On another point made by my noble friend Lord Dykes, we do not forget the cash economy in those efforts.
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, for drawing attention to the question of the general anti-avoidance rule, the GAAR. We are exploring that option to see whether such a rule could help to deter and counter tax avoidance in a fair way. Attention has been drawn to the work of Graham Aaronson and his colleagues and their report. We received the report in November last year. We will be considering it and are actively discussing its implications with businesses and tax professionals. We will respond to the report at the Budget and set out our plans if appropriate. We have said clearly that we would not introduce a GAAR without a further formal round of public consultation, so that is very much work in progress.
I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, for applauding the introduction and the work of the Office of Tax Simplification. The complexity of the tax system has been much remarked on, and I can echo many of the remarks made by noble Lords on that. The OTS has started its work and published recommendations on tax relief, avoidance legislation and IR35, as well as an interim report on small business tax. More is coming down the pipeline and this ongoing work will be an important part of what we all want to see: a simpler tax system that is easier for individuals to comply with. I may disagree with the emphasis of my noble friend Lord Phillips of Sudbury on some things, but I certainly agree that this is fundamentally about individuals doing what they are required by the law to do.
Another critical component of preventing avoidance is the way in which HMRC engages with the largest taxpayers proactively to identify and tackle avoidance. We do not have the time to go into the detail of this but, in response to some of the somewhat one-sided interpretation and selective quoting of the recent Public Accounts Committee report, I draw the attention of the House to HMRC’s detailed rebuttal on many factual points in the conclusion of that report. In brief, to be clear, this effort with large businesses is not in any way HMRC being soft on large business or on those with complex tax affairs. HMRC treats all taxpayers even-handedly and does not allow them to settle for anything less than the full amount due. It is through its engaged and intelligent approach to tax avoidance that the additional revenue to which I have already referred is coming in.
Lord Eatwell
The noble Lord referred to erroneous statements in the PAC report. Did they include the observation that senior HMRC officials had had lunch and dinner with the companies that then had a reduced tax burden?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, the substance of the issues to which HMRC takes exception is to do with the size of unresolved tax bills and some of the details of cases in which errors were found that HMRC disputes. That is the substance, rather than the question of who met whom with what refreshments laid on. We should stick to the substance.
Other noble Lords have been scrupulous in keeping to their time. I am conscious that, with the interventions, I risk going over my time, so I will press on. I want to answer just one more question, raised by my noble friend Lord Dykes, about the tax treatment of overseas companies. I just confirm that we are reforming the controlled foreign company rules very much to protect against the artificial diversion of profits to low-tax jurisdictions, just as our general reforms are being made to make the UK a good place for global corporates to have their headquarters. Having said that this is a matter for individuals, I will not comment on the affairs of any individuals.
In conclusion, I have very briefly explained our strategy for tackling tax avoidance to ensure that everyone pays their fair share. This is an important topic and I am glad that we have had this debate. The Government are taking real, decisive, concrete action to close the tax gap. We are making good progress, but there is much more to do. We will ensure that every sector of society pulls in the same direction to tackle the deficit and the woeful economic legacy left to us by our predecessors.
Scotland Bill
(12 years, 10 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Lang of Monkton
My Lords, I made the mistake before we started today’s business of having a brief word with the Minister, from which I gained the impression that if I kept quiet the preliminary business would be dealt with very quickly and we would soon be into the body of the Bill. I increasingly regretted taking the decision to keep quiet. I have picked some of the notes that I made and scribbled all over them, with a view to reintroducing and regurgitating them now.
The first thing I would say to my noble and learned friend is that, historically, two and a half hours of letting off steam at the beginning of the Committee stage on any Scottish legislation has always proved a way of shortening the overall length of proceedings. Perhaps that may happen on this occasion. However, not having let off steam, I still have some to let off and I propose to do it in short, sharp bursts periodically through the progress of the Bill.
I absolutely support the admirable speech made by my noble friend Lord Forsyth and the brilliant way in which he laid out the concern that all sides of the House have. It was an extremely productive and successful debate. I thought that his tone was absolutely first-class as well. While the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, and others have criticised the tone, and are right to do so, we should always remember that tone is important but so are the facts. The facts will be pretty unpalatable but will have to be laid out before the electorate at various stages. We fail in our obligations if we do not take every opportunity to do it in this place, as well as in the referendum when it comes.
This clause was not one that concerned me when I initially looked at the Bill. I had concerns about other clauses but not about this one. However, in the light of what has happened in the past few days, and the way in which the Scottish National Party Administration has behaved, it is not a clause that one should let pass unchallenged without questioning precisely what it would achieve. That is an important approach to take, not just to this clause but to the whole Bill.
It is unsatisfactory that there is no Scottish National Party Peer in the House who could answer for that party. Let us hope that that will soon be put right. However, foghorn diplomacy is one of the First Minister’s strengths and we hear pretty clearly, even from here, what he has to say. The views of the Scottish Administration shriek out from the paper in which they published them and we are not in much doubt as to what they believe.
Turning specifically to the clause, I think the noble Lord, Lord Browne, raised the question of the possible extension of the franchise to 16 or 17 year-olds. If he did not, I hereby raise it now. I see that Clause 1 transfers certain executive functions in Section 12, relating to the conduct and administration of Scottish Parliament elections. That sounds harmless enough but I should like to hear a little more from the Minister by way of reassurance that it will not jeopardise our position any more than it is already jeopardised by the gymnastics of the First Minister.
Subsection (2) gives Scottish Ministers the powers to make provisions on the conduct of Scottish Parliament elections, which again sounds innocent but is not necessarily innocent in delivery. Subsection (3) amends Section 12(2), which clarifies the scope of the order-making powers of Scottish Ministers to make provisions under Section 12(1)(a). It also amends Section 12(2)(d) to allow Scottish Ministers to combine polls to the Scottish Parliament with other devolved elections where the polls are held on the same day. This seems to me not to involve any principle but to create a potentially anomalous situation. If the electorate were extended to include 16 and 17 year-olds and the poll for a Westminster Parliament took place on the same day as that for a Scottish Parliament, or, indeed, for Scottish councils, would it not seem anomalous if the 16 and 17 year-olds were able to vote for one but not for the other? The same would be true of European elections. To me it points not to any high principle but to self-interest on behalf of the Scottish Administration, who seem to believe that young voters would be more likely than older voters to turn out and vote for independence. Therefore, I hope that my right honourable noble and learned friend understands how my concern grows in looking at this relatively innocent clause.
The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Browne, for using the clause stand part debate to allow us to explore and examine what is intended by this clause and, indeed, what is not intended. I also thank my noble friend Lord Lang. I assure him that it was not my intent to try to stop him speaking. I think he knows full well that we genuinely expected the previous debate to be somewhat shorter than was the case. He is absolutely right to say that it was good that we started with a lengthy but very good debate which allowed numerous views to be expressed. It may well facilitate our consideration of these clauses.
This clause transfers to Scottish Ministers certain of the executive functions that are currently the responsibility of the Secretary of State relating to the administration of Scottish Parliament elections. It will enable Scottish Ministers to make general provision by order for the conduct and administration of elections to the Scottish Parliament, the questioning of such an election and the consequences of irregularities. The noble Lord, Lord Browne, asked me to be more specific about what the powers confer and what continues to be reserved. In the same spirit, my noble friend Lord Lang asked for some reassurances. As I have indicated, the Bill will transfer to Scottish Ministers some of the executive functions that are currently the responsibility of the Secretary of State. There is no corresponding widening of the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament although, obviously, it will have a role in approving the subordinate legislation made by Scottish Ministers. So it is executive devolution rather than legislative devolution.
Specifically, Scottish Ministers will be able to make provision by order as to the conduct of Scottish Parliament elections, the questioning of such an election and the consequences of irregularities. This power includes making provision about the supply or otherwise dealing with the electoral register, the combination of Scottish Parliament elections with other elections falling within the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament—the most obvious one being local authority elections—as well as the limitation of candidates’ election expenses. However, elements of the powers will remain the function of the Secretary of State: the franchise and the combining of Scottish Parliament polls with polls at other reserved elections. This will ensure that issues of constitutional importance continue to be dealt with by the UK Parliament.
I hope that reassures my noble friend that, because of its constitutional importance, the franchise will be reserved to the United Kingdom Parliament. He referred to 16 and 17 year-olds being able to vote. Such a situation is purely hypothetical. However, having different franchises for different elections held in a combined poll may not be as anomalous as my noble friend thinks. If a local election were held in a combined poll with a Westminster election, while he and I would have the ability to vote in local elections we would not be allowed to vote in a Westminster election, so you can already have elections which could be combined on the same day with a different franchise applying in each.
As regards the referendum, I remind my noble friend and, indeed, the Committee that the preference expressed by the United Kingdom Government in our consultation paper was that the franchise of the electorate for any referendum on Scottish independence should be that which applies at the Scottish Parliament elections. That same franchise applied at the 1997 referendum. We take the view that, if it was good enough to elect a Scottish Parliament in May last year, it is appropriate for a referendum.
In addition, the Secretary of State will retain the powers to modify the application of Section 7(1) of the Scotland Act, which sets out the modifications to the calculation of the regional figures which are made when a constituency poll is countermanded or abandoned, and to modify Section 8(7), which sets out what happens when the highest regional figure is the regional figure of two or more parties or individual candidates. This is about the election to the Scottish Parliament rather than an administrative part of it. It is about the election itself. That is why we have considered it appropriate to continue the reservation. The Secretary of State will also retain the power to make provision for the return of members of the Parliament otherwise than at an election.
The B3 reservation—that is, elections to the United Kingdom, European and Scottish Parliaments and the franchise at local government elections in Schedule 5 of the Scotland Act—will remain unchanged. The noble Lord, Lord Browne, asked whether that would lead to the fragmentation which the Gould report raised concerns about with regard to the operation of the 2007 Scottish and local government elections. All responsibilities for the effective conduct of a Scottish Parliament election are being handed over to the Scottish Government. I have indicated the nature of the functions being retained, which relate to the framework under which those elections are run—for example, the franchise and the electoral registration system—or to the reserved elections such as the parliamentary elections. We believe that the difficulties encountered in 2007 were the result of a unique combination of factors that is not expected to arise again.
It is fair to put on record that the 2011 elections were well administered, notwithstanding the fact that it was a combined poll with the AV referendum. That is to the credit of electoral administrators, who are now better co-ordinated through the electoral management board that both the UK and the Scottish Governments support. If one were to change the rules with regard to electoral registration and devolve that, you could then get fragmentation because you could possibly find yourself with different rules for electoral registration for Scottish parliamentary elections and for Westminster elections. I think we are agreed that, although the franchise may be different for each of these elections, it makes sense to have the one canvass subject to the one set of rules for electoral registration.
The noble Lord, Lord Browne, in referring to the previous report of the Scottish Parliament, asked about disqualification from membership of the Scottish Parliament. Section 15 of the Scotland Act allows Her Majesty to specify, by Order in Council, various office-holders who are disqualified from membership of the Scottish Parliament. At present, Scotland Office Ministers are responsible for preparing the draft legislation and presenting it to Her Majesty in Council, but it must first be approved by the Scottish Parliament. Clause 16 has been added in response to the legislative consent Motion in March last year, and will pass responsibility from Scotland Office to the Scottish Government, although the requirement for approval by the Scottish Parliament will remain.
We believe that devolving the elements of responsibility for the administration of elections as I have outlined is consistent with the Calman commission’s principle that these matters should be decided at a level closest to those affected, unless there are good reasons for determining them at a UK level. I have sought to try and make the distinction in respect of constitutional matters and where, in terms of electoral registration, it makes sense to get consistency across the United Kingdom.
Lord Sewel
Perhaps I may make one point. I do not want to keep on bringing the debate back to the present First Minister, but he has made clear over the years his animosity and antipathy towards this House. Would it therefore be possible under the arrangements that have been outlined for the Scottish Parliament to disqualify Peers from being Members of the Scottish Parliament? That would be a great shame because a number of Peers have distinguished themselves as MSPs.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
No, my Lords, that would not be possible, as eligibility matters will remain reserved. I hope that on the basis of what I have indicated—
Lord Browne of Ladyton
I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for giving way. From the way in which his voice changed, I had the sense that he was moving towards a peroration.
I am beginning more clearly to understand this division. I understand the difference between the framework within which the elections are conducted, as opposed to the administration; and I understand the difference that I imposed on this debate between the electoral system and conduct. I should be grateful if the Minister would go through the list that I gave—at some stage, if not now. Perhaps he may write to tell me where at least two of those matters lie. One of them may be straightforward and we will come to an amendment on it shortly, one hopes—the procedure and framework for filling regional MSP vacancies—but where does the abandonment of a constituency poll or notice of it to be countermanded lie? Those two matters concern me and I will ignore the other two. I should just like a reassurance that beyond the list that I gave there are no matters other than those the noble and learned Lord has identified.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, I will certainly write to confirm, but I can seek to indicate that the rules regarding the regional list will remain reserved to the Secretary of State. On the abandonment of a poll, my understanding is that the issue in question is not so much with the abandonment of the poll itself but where that leads to a difference in the calculation of the regional vote. It is that calculation that would be affected if there was an abandonment of a poll in a particular constituency. I am seeing nods that I have actually got it right. That is the substance of this reservation. I will confirm that, but I hope that that has been a sufficient explanation to the noble Lord.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Fookes)
The Question is that Clause 2 stand part of the Bill.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees
Perhaps I should explain to the noble Lord that we have to agree that Clause 2 stand part of the Bill before we reach Amendment 1.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
“Regional vacancies: individual candidates
(1) Section 10 of the 1998 Act (regional vacancies) is amended as follows.
(2) In subsection (2) omit “the regional member was returned as an individual candidate, or”.
(3) After subsection (6) insert—
“(6A) If the regional member was returned as an individual candidate, an election will be held and the single vacancy allocated in accordance with the procedures set out in subsection (6B).
(6B) In any election held in accordance with subsection (6A)—
(a) for each registered party which has submitted a regional list, the regional figure for the purposes of paragraph (c) is the total number of regional votes given for the party in all the constituencies included in the region divided by the aggregate of one plus the number of candidates of the party presently returned as constituency members for any of those constituencies plus the number of regional seats allocated under section 8 to that party at the previous general election;(b) for each individual candidate, the regional figure for the purposes of paragraph (c) is the total number of regional votes given for him in all the constituencies included in the region;(c) the vacant regional member seat shall be allocated to the registered political party or individual candidate with the highest regional figure.””
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
Thank you, Lord Chairman. I am really grateful to you. You are almost a relative. I have great respect for your knowledge of procedure, including procedure in the other place, where you served with great distinction as Deputy Speaker. I remember very well that you kept me in order from time to time. I wish that you had the same powers here, by the way, but that is another story.
Perhaps I may also be permitted to speak to Amendment 16, which is grouped with this amendment. I am sure that one speech would be welcomed by the House, rather than if I spoke to the amendments separately.
As to Amendment 1, I believe that I have discovered a gap, a lacuna or whatever word one should use, in the electoral process. It came about in my discussions in relation to my very good friend, the independent Member in Lothian, Margo MacDonald MSP, who I have known for many years. In raising this issue, I wish her absolutely no ill at all—quite the reverse. I hope that this issue does not arise in any way. However, it occurred to me when talking to her and then looking at the legal position that if a vacancy arises for a constituency Member, there is provision for a by-election, and if there is a vacancy for a regional Member on a party list, the next person on that list automatically takes over. However, when an independent Member either resigns or sadly dies, there is no provision for filling that vacancy. There seems to be something missing from the arrangements. I am sure that everyone would agree that there ought to be some method for filling that vacancy. Having discussed it with the helpful people in the Public Bill Office, my amendment is just one way of dealing with that issue.
If a vacancy arose due to the resignation or the decease of an independent Member, new subsection (6B) proposed in my amendment would take effect. A new calculation would then be carried out by the returning officer, in the same way as the allocation of the regional seats which resulted in the election of that independent Member. It would be:
“for each registered party which has submitted a regional list, the regional figure for the purposes of paragraph (c) is the total number of regional votes given for the party in all the constituencies”—
we know that figure; that was used in the initial calculation—
“divided by the aggregate of one plus the number of candidates of the party presently returned as constituency members for any of those constituencies plus the number of regional seats allocated under section 8 to a party at the previous general election”.
So those seats are all taken into account. Proposed new paragraph (b) states:
“for each individual candidate, the regional figure for the purposes of paragraph (c) is the total number of regional votes given for him”—
it should say “or her”, but I am sure that in this case “him” includes “her”, or embraces “her” may be a better way to put it—
“in all the constituencies included in the region”.
Then, the vacant regional Member seat would be allocated to either the registered political party or the individual candidate with the highest regional figure. That seems to me, and it seemed to the Public Bill Office, the best way to deal with it.
I hope that the Minister and all Members of the House agree that the issue needs to be dealt with. The Minister has a great deal more advisers on drafting than I do. If, for any reason, this is not the best way to deal with the matter, I hope that at the very least he will say that he will come back with an amendment that deals with it more effectively.
Amendment 16 is very different and addresses a difficult issue on which I have changed my views—as have others, I think. It concerns whether persons should be permitted to stand for both a regional seat and a constituency seat at the same election. Paradoxically, the position is different in Wales from that in Scotland. I do not understand why it should be different. In Wales, the same individual is not permitted to stand for both a regional and a constituency seat.
A few years ago, before the most recent election in Scotland, that seemed to me to be a very sensible provision. I tabled an amendment in this House. Strangely enough—but these things happen in politics—the Minister who had piloted the legislation for Wales, and argued the case in Wales that a person should not be permitted to stand for both, made an entirely opposite argument in rejecting my amendment to bring Scotland into line with Wales. I have great respect for my good and noble friend Lord Evans, especially when he can argue one way one year and the other by the next; that is a necessary skill in politics. However, he did not give any explanation for it.
I hope that if the Minister does not accept my amendment today, he will at least give some logical explanation which will convince not just me but other Members of the House why it should be different in Scotland from Wales.
Arbuthnott identified the problem of dual candidacy in his report. He said that the commission found considerable public opposition to the party control of the closed list. Concerns cited were a lack of voter choice over the selection and election of regional candidates. This was perceived to undermine legitimacy. That is not dealing with precisely my point, but he went on to state that the lack of legitimacy was compounded by the problem of dual candidacy. While candidates were defeated in their constituency, many were then elected because they were included on closed party lists. It was noted that 88 per cent of successful regional MSPs had been failed constituency candidates.
Lord Wigley
That was what led to the change in Wales. There were three defeated candidates in one constituency alone all of whom came back on the list. But would that problem not be overcome if there was an open list rather than a closed list?
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
There is scope for another amendment, I think. I have tabled enough already, so perhaps the noble Lord might think of tabling one. Everyone here from Scotland will know that list Members have a habit of choosing a seat they would like to stand for in the constituency and then concentrate on opening an office and taking up issues in that constituency. If the constituency Member cannot deal with a problem—elected Members will know that some problems are insoluble—the candidate will jump on the bandwagon and take it up.
Dual candidacy is a real problem. I have tabled a later amendment proposing a general review of the electoral system. I will discuss that in greater detail when we get to that amendment. It would be a better way of dealing with the issue in the longer term, but this would deal with it in the short term. Our electoral system was set up with the best of intentions, but even the noble Lord, Lord Steel, who was involved, now recognises that it is not fit for purpose. One of the problems is the question of dual candidacy. I hope that other Members who have experienced the problems of dual candidacy in Scotland will comment, and I certainly hope that the Minister will consider the potential change and, at the very least, explain why there should be a different system in Scotland from the one that I understand operates quite successfully in Wales.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
My Lords, the noble Lord has raised two very important, if minor points. We have to remember that when we were legislating on the then Scotland Bill, in which I was involved in this Chamber, the additional Member system, as it is known, was completely new to this country. There were one or two loose ends that were not quite right.
On Amendment 16, which is the noble Lord’s more substantial amendment, I entirely agree with him. As Presiding Officer I had to deal privately with complaints from constituency Members about the activities of regional Members. It is slightly worse than the noble Lord said because quite often regional Members had not just stood and been defeated, they were intending to stand again in the constituency. People were sitting in the Parliament—quite unlike this place—and had every intention of fighting a Member sitting on another Bench. That made for bad relations within the Parliament and some people—I shall name no names—exploited it disgracefully. In Wales—
Lord Steel of Aikwood
I shall give way in a second. The same problem arose in the original Welsh legislation—the noble Lord will correct me if I am wrong—but it was the wish of the Welsh people to change the rule. Unfortunately there is not the same will in Scotland, not even in my own party.
Lord Wigley
It was not exactly the same in Wales. The circumstances are different in that there are four Members on the list in Wales, compared with seven in Scotland. The proposed changes would not overcome one of the basic problems. Someone who has been elected on a list can still stand at the next election for a constituency seat and do exactly what the noble Lord described, and can give up the regional seat in standing for the constituency.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
I take that, but what they cannot do in Wales and not only can but actually do in Scotland is stand in the constituency and also be on the list. They have a fallback position which is not the case in Wales. That is wrong and it should be put right. Whether we can do it in this Bill is another matter but the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, raises a very important point.
On the noble Lord’s other more minor amendment about by-elections in the event of an independent Member creating a vacancy, I have an additional point to make. My memory is fading but I think that I gave evidence to the Calman commission, which has not dealt with it in the report. I was elected on the regional list as a Liberal Democrat and when I went into the Chair, of course, I had to resign from the party. There was no way that I could be re-elected because I was no longer a member of the party; I was an independent. I could not stand in Edinburgh and say, “Please elect me because I am the Presiding Officer”. I am not saying that I wanted to particularly but it was impossible to do it. My two successors were fortunately elected in constituencies but that might not always be so. When a Presiding Officer happens to be a regional list Member there is no way that he or she can continue for a second Parliament. That cannot be right. There is a minor problem in addition about independents standing on the regional list. The whole thing would be clarified if we had a different electoral system but we are saddled with what we have now and I have no instant solution to that problem. It is one that ought to be taken up as we proceed with the Bill.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, I shall speak to the amendment in this group standing in my name and that of my noble and learned friend Lord Boyd of Duncansby. I also have something to say about the amendments tabled by my noble friend Lord Foulkes.
My amendment would grant the Scottish Parliament the power to ensure that its elections are never again held on the same day as another national poll. The amendment is nearly identical to one tabled by my honourable friend Tom Greatrex, the Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West, at the Public Bill Committee stage in the House of Commons. However, I regret that during that debate the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland and many others were diverted by the then controversy of the imminent application and interaction of the Fixed-term Parliaments Act. As far as I can see, although my honourable friend spoke to the amendment, it was never properly answered. Therefore, it has been repeated here in order to get an answer. If the answer allows for the avoidance of a coincidence of polls such as we saw in 2007, I will be greatly satisfied.
As noble Lords will know, the coincidence of local government and Scottish Parliament elections on 3 May 2007—and other factors—led to the rejection of 146,099 Scottish Parliament ballot papers and 38,362 local election ballot papers. It was the nadir of electoral administration in the United Kingdom, and everybody has focused on ensuring that it never happens again. It is the firm belief of this side of the House that never again should the people of Scotland be subjected to the confusion and chaos of two polls on the same day. We strongly opposed the coalition Government's decision to impose a referendum on the alternative vote system on the same day as the Holyrood election. The Minister said that it passed off without incident, but we will never know what effect that coincidence had on the way in which people behaved. There was no repeat of the dreadful circumstances of 2007, but I argue in my amendment that we should try to avoid repeating the coincidence if at all possible.
I am conscious that Clause 2 relates to the administration of the combination of polls that would be required should there be such a coincidence. I have nothing to say about that; I agree with it. We have been combining polls in those circumstances probably since 1978 or before. It makes good sense. Therefore, I am happy to let Clause 2 pass. What I am concerned about is seeking to use the device of the 1998 Act to avoid this. If the clause is properly drafted—and I hope that it is—it would grant the Scottish Parliament the flexibility to move its poll in the event of a coincidence. It would mean that there should never be any future coincidence of polls unless the Scottish Parliament decided otherwise. Most people believe that probably we cannot have that coincidence. However, despite the Fixed-term Parliaments Act and the devices of extending the period of a Parliament, in particular of the Scottish Parliament, that the coalition Government have agreed to, there is the possibility of an extraordinary election—some noble Lords on this side of the House would quite like next to see ordinary election, despite the Fixed-term Parliaments Act—coinciding with a date fixed for a Scottish Parliament election.
I got myself into some difficulties with the arithmetic of trying to work out whether coincidence is at all possible with the European Parliament elections as a consequence of the movement of the Scottish Parliament elections. It may just be possible, which is why the amendment anticipates the coincidence. I may be wrong about that, but we could in future have to use the device of extending the Scottish Parliament’s time again to avoid coincidence. That may throw up the possibility of a European Parliament coincidence. We believe this is the best way to do this. It should be a matter for the Scottish Parliament. In response to Gould, the Scottish Parliament committed to decoupling Scottish Parliamentary and local government elections, which was the real mischief that caused the problem in 2007. Similar provisions have been made to try to ensure that Scottish parliamentary and UK general elections do not follow the same cycle, as I have already said. The Calman commission recommended that, for reasons of practicality and principle, Scottish parliamentary elections should be administered at the level closest to those affected by them. We have already debated that to a degree. In a sense, it was the electorate of the Scottish Parliament who were the victims of the catastrophe that was the 2007 election. We believe that as a mature Parliament the Scottish Parliament should have the responsibility to decide whether it wants to allow this coincidence to persist, should it happen because of the rhythm of parliamentary elections or the possibility of an extraordinary election. This amendment is devised to achieve that possibility.
I turn to the amendments tabled by my noble friend Lord Foulkes of Cumnock. I congratulate my noble friend and, by extension, the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood. Each of them identified lacunae in the framework for Scottish elections, which is a phrase that I will now use, to the Scottish Parliament that could be addressed. I was not aware that there is no process for filling a vacancy for an independent member in the regional part of the system. That should not be allowed to continue. I understand that my noble friend’s approach to this is to devise a method that is very similar to the method adopted for electing regional members. It is very close to that, if not precisely the same. I urge the Minister to take this away to see whether, at some stage during the passage of this Bill, we can deal with this. His advisers are, in addition, capable of dealing with a lacuna that has been identified by the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood. I suggest that the Minister considers that too. It would genuinely be in the spirit of the appropriate approach to this legislation. I am sorry that the Calman commission did not have its attention drawn to this problem because I am sure that if it had the noble and learned Lord in another guise may well have been party to a recommendation to resolve it.
I turn to Amendment 16 which the noble Lord, Lord Steel, identifies as being the more substantial amendment. My noble friend Lord Foulkes of Cumnock is a man of extraordinary experience, not just in your Lordships' House but in the House of Commons and in the Scottish Parliament. Some of us were privileged to be at the celebration of his 70th birthday in the Gorgie Suite in his beloved Tynecastle Park on Saturday night. He knows where my allegiances lie, and I am delighted that there is at least one reason for celebration in the Gorgie Suite in Tynecastle this year because there will be precious few others. For those noble Lords who do not know what I am referring to, in an act of extraordinary generosity his family invited almost 200 people from all over the world to join the celebration of his 70th birthday. The fact that almost nobody refused the invitation no matter how far away they came from or, it seemed to me, failed to turn up is a measure of the high esteem in which he is held. I refer to this because the speeches that night celebrated a lifetime of service to politics in Scotland and to public life. It is from that background that he speaks when he rises in your Lordships' House, and he ought to be listened to carefully. However—
Lord Browne of Ladyton
However, I regret that in this case I cannot support my noble friend’s amendment. If there is a mischief here, it seems to me that the solution lies in the hands of the political parties. We should not be legislating for this and I am surprised that we have in fact legislated in Wales, but if the Welsh people wanted that, that is fine.
For many years, the Labour Party had a voluntary prohibition on this. We had a rule that you could not stand for both the lists and the constituencies. We departed from that at the last election to the Scottish Parliament and because of that Sarah Boyack is a Member of the Scottish Parliament. That seems to be a good result; apart from anything else, it may be a reason for maintaining the status quo.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
Is the noble Lord aware that the Conservative Party in Scotland had precisely the opposite rule—that in order to be on the list you had to stand in a constituency?
Lord Browne of Ladyton
I am most grateful. Every day I come to work in your Lordships’ House I learn something, and that is today’s learning experience. I had no idea that that was the case. Maybe at some stage—I will not take up your Lordships’ time with this now—somebody will explain to me why that was the case.
Baroness Randerson
Perhaps I can add to the amount the noble Lord has learnt today. It was not really the case that the people of Wales wanted to abandon dual candidacy—the Labour Party in Wales was very keen on that. Consultation produced a total lack of interest on the part of the people of Wales. However, although the system of election is better than first past the post, it is rather chancy. Not allowing dual candidacy actually increases the chances of strange results happening. For example, in the last Welsh elections the Conservative Party was extremely successful, led by a leader who was not able to be a constituency candidate because he was a list candidate. He was so successful and they won so many constituencies that he lost his list seat. It does enhance the problems of the system.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
I am very grateful to the noble Baroness for continuing my education. I am better informed than I was when I rose to speak. I have to say that when I started in my political life, the people of Wales and the Labour Party were almost synonymous. In any event, one of the consequences of our generous devolution of power has been that with proportional representation in the political colour of the United Kingdom, parties have taken advantage of opportunities. I accept that and it is all part of democracy.
I am not arguing for maintaining the status quo because of the outcome. In fact, I pray in aid Arbuthnott. The Arbuthnott commission was set up to look into constituency boundaries for the Scottish Parliament, because there was an issue of divergence of boundaries between the Scottish Parliament and the United Kingdom Parliament, and voting and representation in Scotland. I have an extract of the commission’s report, entitled Putting Citizens First: Boundaries, Voting and Representation in Scotland. I am looking at paragraphs 4.5 onwards. In moving his amendment, my noble friend quoted from Arbuthnott. I do not intend to quote all these 12 or 13 paragraphs, but they seem to set out a very coherent argument for why it would be inappropriate to depart by law from what has become the practice of dual candidacy.
With all due respect to my noble friend, I will read the conclusion, paragraph 4.60, which in a sense contradicts some of the thinking. It states:
“The Commission believes that preventing dual candidacy would be undemocratic and agrees that it would place”—
and here I think it is quoting a witness—
“‘an unnecessary restriction on the democratic rights of potential candidates, parties and local electors to have as unrestricted a choice as possible in an election’.”.
Certainly, in Scotland, as a consequence of divergent party practice, in a situation that permitted dual candidacy, there is a belief that people took advantage. In my view, political parties just need to learn to make the best of the circumstances in which they are operating and then we can all take advantage of the circumstances, rather than changing the circumstances or the opportunities that other people take advantage of.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, in introducing his amendment, the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, has given us an opportunity to look at a number of the issues that have arisen with regard to the operation of the electoral system. As my noble friend Lord Steel said, when we were legislating in 1998 it was not really possible to foresee all the implications and consequences of it. Therefore, we have had a useful opportunity to highlight a number of the issues and concerns that have arisen.
As the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, says, Amendment 1 identifies a lacuna, which, to be fair, I am not sure has been highlighted very much in the past. My noble friend Lord Steel pointed out a variation on that with regard to the role of the Presiding Officer, who gets elected on a list basis as opposed to a constituency basis. Perhaps I may add that Mr George Reid did not stand again so the issue did not arise, whereas Mr Alex Fergusson always indicated that he would seek to stand again as a Conservative. No doubt he would have had to win the nomination of the Galloway Conservatives. It may also be said that it would have been open to my noble friend Lord Steel to have sought again to put his name forward in the Liberal Democrat list for Lothian. Although I did not live in Lothian, had I done so I certainly would have voted for him.
The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, has raised an important point. No doubt with some work he has found an interesting way to address it. As he properly says, currently a seat vacated by an individual candidate who was returned as a regional Member remains vacant until the next general election. The noble Lord proposes that a poll is held across the whole region to select a new Member. Calculations would ensue upon that—he set that out very clearly and I do not propose to repeat it—to identify who would succeed.
The noble Lord is right to point out that a regional seat vacancy has not yet been caused by an independent Member vacating one. I share his view. I bear no ill will towards Mrs Margo MacDonald for being the only independent Member. Not only do I bear her no ill will but I think that everyone who knows her would take the opportunity to wish her well. My experience is that she has always made a very robust and independent contribution to the deliberations of the Scottish Parliament, and long may that continue, although we do not always agree with her.
We should remember that voters continue to be represented by their constituency MSP and several regional MSPs. It is an important issue, which, given that it is novel, I would wish to look at. If we did anything, it would be important that it commanded consensus among all the parties because it is an important part of our electoral system. To commit from the Dispatch Box without having taken proper soundings among all the parties would be inappropriate, but I hope that we can get an opportunity to take soundings to see whether this gap can be plugged, and plugged suitably to take account of the position of a Presiding Officer as well.
The other amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, would allow candidates to stand for both constituency and regional polls, and both he and my noble friend Lord Steel indicated some discontent from their own experiences with the current system. The noble Lords, Lord Foulkes and Lord Browne, quoted from the Arbuthnott commission, which stated that it was,
“not convinced that there is any evidence to support the claims made regarding these perceived problems. There is no survey evidence to suggest that dual candidacy is an issue for voters, or a disincentive to their participation in the political process. Few of our consultation responses raised dual candidacy as an issue, nor was it raised spontaneously in our focus groups”.
I am certainly aware from my time in the Scottish Parliament that colleagues representing Orkney would find that not many regional list candidates would bother to get that far, although occasionally it was quite useful to have regional-list MSPs in order to pass on some of the more difficult cases. If a constituent was clearly not satisfied with what you had done on their behalf, and you would be surprised if anyone would be able to satisfy them, it was always useful to have another seven MSPs with whom you could share the burden.
That said, this would be a significant change to the system for electing Members of the Scottish Parliament. The question was raised with regard to Wales—my noble friend Lady Randerson and the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, are in their places. My understanding is that objections were raised by three of the four main political parties in Wales when this was brought forward. The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, asked me to explain why this position arises. In our debate before we went into Committee I was asked at one stage to explain the policy of the Scottish National Party, and now I am being asked to defend the position that was brought about by the previous Labour Administration, of which the noble Lord, Lord Browne, was a most distinguished member. It actually arose from a proposal in the White Paper, Better Governance for Wales, published in June 2005. It is fair to say that there is no reason why the position in Scotland should be the same as that in Wales. There is an automatic assumption that the systems are always going to be the same, but I think it is reasonable to say that there can be variations tailored to suit particular requirements in different parts of the United Kingdom. I do not think it follows that because Wales has not gone down the route, Scotland should not do so either.
The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, indicated that a later amendment of his would propose a general review of the electoral system. He will be aware that the Government have stated their intention to consider what has been said about a review of the electoral system in the reports of both the Calman commission and the Arbuthnott commission. There is obviously some support for this in some quarters, but it would be possible to take forward such a review only with the full support of the Scottish Parliament as well. The Committee will be aware that quite a number of consultations are under way. The most crucial one at the moment is on the referendum, and in a moment I will deal with the amendment spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Browne, on the coincidence of election dates. The Government are committed to looking at the issue of fixed-term Parliaments and whether the Scottish Parliament should move to fixed terms. That will generate another consultation. Perhaps this is not the most appropriate and propitious time to start a review of the electoral system, although I repeat that the Government have indicated their intention to consider a response to both Calman and Arbuthnott on that point.
The amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Browne, seeks to allow the Scottish Parliament to move the date for parliamentary elections by up to 12 months either way when it falls in the same year as either an early UK general election or a European Parliament general election, so long as the new date is not within six months of either of those elections. He mentioned that when this was debated in the House of Commons, there was more of a focus on the then quite likely coincidence of a Scottish and a Westminster election in 2015. I moved an amendment during the passage of the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill through your Lordships’ House that changed the date of the next Scottish election so that such a clash would not occur. The Government are already committed to carrying out a detailed assessment of the implications of the two elections coinciding on the same day and to consult on the possibility of moving permanently to five-year terms for the Scottish Parliament. We will make a more detailed announcement of our plans in due course.
If any future consultation is in favour of moving the Scottish Parliament to five-year terms, that would solve the problem of a clash with both scheduled UK elections and European parliamentary elections, as all three will then be on five-year cycles scheduled for different years. That said, there will always be a risk that an early UK general election could reintroduce a clash of dates due to the resetting of the parliamentary timetable. However, if there are concerns about that happening, I hope the noble Lord will agree that that would be an important issue to raise in the context of a consultation on moving to a five-year fixed term for the Scottish Parliament, as we intend to do.
We are committed to considering a change to the length of the term of the Scottish Parliament. It is an appropriate concern for the noble Lord to have raised, but I hope he would agree that this Bill is perhaps not the place to deal with it. However, it is germane to the consultation that is about to take place. That would be the appropriate place in which to consider it. In these circumstances, I hope that noble Lords will not press their amendments.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, as always, that was a really helpful reply from the Minister. We are now getting used to helpful replies from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, for which I am grateful.
I was hoping that he would answer the question which the noble Lord, Lord Evans of Temple Guiting, did not. I was sure that he would have had exactly the same brief from the excellent civil servants the noble Lord, Lord Evans, had, and that it would not be too difficult for him. As it turned out, it was not, so I am grateful to him for explaining it.
As I said in my introduction to the amendment, I am a little equivocal about it anyway. Perhaps I may return the flattery that I received from my noble friend Lord Browne of Ladyton, whom I thank for his kindness. Now one or two people will ask me why they were not invited to the party, by the way; that is the only problem that I have. My noble friend explained extremely well why we should leave it to the political parties and wait for the promised wider review of the electoral system. I understand also that my right honourable friend Mr Peter Hain is suggesting that Wales should move back to first past the post elections for the Welsh Assembly, which seems like a wonderful idea for those of us who are Neanderthal first past the post supporters—so there is even discussion there. Therefore, I shall not press Amendment 16.
I do feel strongly about Amendment 1, because this matter should be sorted out. I am grateful to the Minister for his reply. As I understood it, he said that he would take the matter away and consult other parties, and that if there was some consensus he would come forward with an amendment on Report. He is nodding, so I am not jumping to conclusions. On that basis, I am quite happy to withdraw my amendment.
“(1A) Subsections (2) to (11), except subsection (9), apply also to the power of the Scottish Ministers to make an order under section 12.””
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, Section 113 of the Scotland Act 1998 makes provision about the scope of subordinate legislation powers in that Act. Clause 3(1) of this Bill amends Section 113 of the 1998 Act so that it also applies to Scottish Ministers’ new powers to make subordinate legislation about the administration of Scottish Parliament elections under Section 12 of the 1998 Act.
The amendment replaces Clause 3(1) with a provision that has the same effect and restructures Section 113. This is intended to make it easier for provisions in this Bill or in future legislation to provide that Section 113 applies in relation to other powers that may subsequently be conferred on Scottish Ministers. I beg to move.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
My Lords, I am very grateful to the Government for including in the Bill the second part of this clause on the election of the Presiding Officer, possible deputies and temporary deputies. It arose directly out of evidence that I gave to the Calman commission, which arose in turn from my own experience when, despite trying to juggle radiotherapy for prostate cancer with my duties in the chair, I was absent for some time, and the Parliament found that it had no provision to enable it appoint even a temporary deputy to help take the load. I am glad that this clause appears in the Bill. I am thankful and I welcome it.
The other point that I wish to make is slightly astray of the Bill. Members of the House will note that under Clause 4(3) the Parliament has 14 days from polling day to meet and elect a Presiding Officer. That is in stark contrast to what happens here. I have on other occasions severely criticised the haste with which the present coalition was put together, which I thought was entirely unnecessary. Under the Scottish arrangement, which was already much looser, because of proportional representation it was anticipated before the first election that a coalition was more likely than not and therefore that there was plenty of time. My noble and learned friend was actively involved and will remember how long it took, even with a more limited agenda, which the Scottish Parliament has compared with Westminster, to put a coalition together. It was done with great care and skill and it worked. Without going into extraneous matters, I think that the haste with which the coalition was put together at Westminster was a mistake and that perhaps they can learn by reading Clause 4 of this excellent Bill.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Steel. I can indeed confirm that he made representations to the Calman commission on this point, not least in the light of his own experience. His proposal was supported by the then Presiding Officer of the Scottish Parliament, Alex Fergusson, and therefore the Government were happy to agree with the Calman commission’s recommendation that there should be greater flexibility in the running of the Scottish Parliament.
My noble friend is also right to point to the other parts of the clause, which gets rid of the restriction that the Presiding Officers and their deputies have to be appointed at the Parliament’s first meeting. This inflexibility caused problems during the last Session, given the very close electoral result. This meant that parties had difficulty in deciding quickly to release one of their members to be Presiding Officer.
My noble friend made comments about the time taken to form coalitions. In 2003, we did so in a more measured way than perhaps in 1999, when we were under greater pressure. However, we did not have the markets waiting on every twist and turn of the coalition negotiations. There are important differences between Westminster and Scotland, although no doubt we all learn lessons from experience. I hope that what we are putting in here will provide additional flexibility in the election of the Presiding Officer. It has been supported by the previous Scotland Bill Committee in the Scottish Parliament, and the current Scotland Bill Committee has also indicated that it is content with this clause.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
“Sitting calendar
(1) Schedule 3 to the 1998 Act (Standing orders—further provision) is amended as follows.
(2) After paragraph 7 insert—
“Parliamentary calendar8. The standing orders may include provision for ensuring that the Parliament shall—
(a) sit on at least 30 weeks in each calendar year,(b) meet on at least three days in each week that it sits, and(c) not adjourn for a period of more than 60 consecutive days.””
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, it might be said that by moving the amendment—and even by discussing it, let alone coming to any decision on it—Westminster is interfering in the work of the Scottish Parliament. However, I have raised the issue because it is a dissolved Parliament and, ultimately, until such time as there is an independent Scotland—heaven or the electorate forbid—it is the responsibility of this sovereign Parliament.
I raise the issue also because for four years I served, along with the noble Lord, Lord Stephen, and others, as a Member of the Scottish Parliament. I came across a huge number of people who were absolutely astonished when they found out that the Scottish Parliament sat for only one and a half days a week in plenary. Members of the Scottish Parliament are paid a substantial amount of money—something like 87.5 per cent of the salary of a Member of this Parliament—and it is seen as a full-time job. Of course, just as MPs have responsibilities in their constituencies, MSPs have constituency responsibilities, too—at least, constituency MSPs do. Committees also meet on a Tuesday and a Wednesday morning. Even so, it is difficult to explain that the Scottish Parliament sits for only one and a half days in the weeks that it is sitting.
As a result of that, some strange things happen. It is amazing. There are other former Members of the Scottish Parliament here, including the noble Lord, Lord Selkirk, who can give their experiences in relation to this. In almost every debate in which I took part in the Scottish Parliament, the speeches were limited to four minutes. Occasionally, we get time limits here but it is ridiculous to expect people to be able to put forward a coherent argument on a major issue of education, the health service or whatever they are dealing with in four minutes.
Compared with the House of Commons, there are also relatively few opportunities for Statements and Urgent Questions. Recently, under Speaker Bercow in the House of Commons, there have been lots of Urgent Questions. In the time that I was in Holyrood, I cannot remember more than one or perhaps two Urgent Questions. There was not the time. It was difficult to fit anything new or additional into the programme and timetable of the Scottish Parliament.
I find the Report stages of Bills there quite astonishing. These are important Bills dealing, as I say, with important issues such as education, social work, local government reform or the health service. They are rushed through. Sometimes, on an amendment being dealt with on Report, people are allowed to argue a case for only 30 seconds. It is ludicrous that they should be squeezed into that length of time.
Again, Question Time, partly but not completely because of the time constraints, becomes a bit of a farce and a very predictable occasion. I could almost write the script for every First Minister’s Questions, with who will come in and how many of them there will be. It does not have the spontaneity of—
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
I am most grateful to the noble Lord for giving way and sorry that I was not here for the start of his speech; I had to go to another meeting. Could he help me, as I have not had his experience in the Scottish Parliament? Is there some restriction that prevents it from sitting for more than one and a half days a week? Is that not a matter for the Scottish Parliament to decide itself?
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
As always, the noble Lord is perceptive. I was going to come on to say that but will say it now. I put down the amendment some time ago and am now very pleased to hear that, since then, the Scottish Parliament has started talking about sitting at greater length. The purpose of the amendment was to try and get a debate on this, not just here but in the Scottish Parliament. I am glad that it has achieved that. After this debate finishes—if other noble Lords want to participate—were the Minister to give some indication as to what is happening in the Scottish Parliament in relation to its sitting times, more time for debating these issues and Report stages allowing fuller consideration, I would of course be satisfied and willing to withdraw the amendment. I am very glad I raised this as it is long overdue. If it is now being dealt with, no one will be happier than me.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, I confessed that I knew nothing about it, but it seems a very sensible proposal. I have in the past suggested that because the Scottish Parliament sits only one and a half days a week, a solution to the West Lothian question would be that all Scottish Members of Parliament should sit in the Scottish Parliament for one and a half days a week and on those one and a half days the House of Commons could discuss those matters not related to devolved issues. This has not proved very popular with Members of the Scottish Parliament, for reasons that I cannot imagine. So in following the advice of the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, they might protect themselves from being endangered by people like me, who might suggest that there were synergies in combining the roles of a Member of the House of Commons with a Member of the Scottish Parliament. I am sure that the Scottish Parliament will show considerable gratitude to the noble Lord in drawing this matter to public attention if, indeed, it has already got that Parliament rethinking its sitting days.
Lord Stephen
My Lords, I agree very much with the first contribution that the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, made. This is essentially a matter for the Scottish Parliament, which has wide discretion in this area. Unfortunately, I cannot agree with the suggestions that he made in his most recent contribution. I agree with a great deal of what the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, said. I am sure that others who have been in the Scottish Parliament, most notably my noble and learned friend Lord Wallace of Tankerness, also agree with a great number of his suggestions, most particularly about the guillotining of virtually every contribution made in the Scottish Parliament. The noble Lord is absolutely right; it is impossible to make a full and weighty contribution when the guillotine constantly comes after sometimes less than four minutes. These issues should be addressed, and I hope that in addressing those issues the Scottish Parliament will look to the contributions of former Members and those who have had experience of the Parliament. But I do not think that it should be as a result of an amendment proposed through the House of Lords that those matters are best addressed. I am sure that the Minister will explain that those matters are being looked at; I understand that there is a concerted effort to look at changing the way in which the Scottish Parliament operates. That is all the more important in the context of more powers being granted to the Scottish Parliament; as the Parliament grows and develops, these issues should be tackled, and the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, made an extremely valuable contribution in pointing to the Parliament the way ahead.
Lord Selkirk of Douglas
If I may, I would like to ask a very brief question to the Minister in this connection. During the Calman commission, we recommended that more time should be given for the final stages of Bills in the Scottish Parliament. It seemed to us that with many Bills, voluntary organisations, charities or other worthy bodies would have recommendations to make but would get virtually no changes in the final stages of the Bill because procedures were so rapid and everything went so quickly. My understanding was that that was under consideration by the Scottish Parliament, and I wonder whether the Minister could give us the up-to-date situation on that subject, if he has the facts readily at hand.
Lord Boyd of Duncansby
This is the first time that I have spoken at this stage of the debate, so I renew my declaration of interest in the Calman commission. I am somewhat surprised to find that I am standing here at the Dispatch Box, and I hope that the Committee does not find it strange that two lawyers who were both on the Calman commission now find ourselves on opposing sides of the bar but pulling in the same direction. I hope that it reflects the cross-party approach to the Bill.
To my noble friend Lord Foulkes of Cumnock I can say that I was very pleased, particularly given what has been said already, that I was one of those invited to his party, and that I very much enjoyed it. So if I disagree with him on any point, he can be assured that it is not because I am biting the hand that fed me.
On the issue of timetabling, I think I am right in saying that there are states within the United States that have within their constitution maximum times during which legislators can sit. They take the view that the longer they sit the more mischief they can make. That might be one approach. In Britain, we tend to take the opposite view—that we pay legislators to legislate, and if they are not sitting in plenary session, they are clearly not worth the taxpayers’ money.
The court of public opinion is the important element here. I suspect that it modified the sittings of this Parliament, given the criticisms that were made about the long summer recess, but clearly it may also very well have worked in relation to the Scottish Parliament, given the proposals. In particular, the amendment that my noble friend has put down may very well have spurred some action on it. With these words, I look forward to hearing from the Minister.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, the amendment, which was tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, would enable the Scottish Parliament’s standing orders to make provision to ensure that the Parliament would have to sit on at least 30 weeks in each calendar year; that it met on at least three days in each week that it sits; and that it does not adjourn for a period of more than 60 consecutive days. In moving the amendment the noble Lord certainly described some frustrations which I can readily identify with, although we never actually served at the same time in the Scottish Parliament. Although it does not relate to a restriction on back-bench time, I remember one Conservative opposition day when Mr Murdo Fraser was the Conservative spokesman on the economy and enterprise and I was the Enterprise Minister, and the Deputy Presiding Officer announced: “A Conservative debate on the future of Scotland's economy. Mr Murdo Fraser, you have seven minutes”. That did not really seem to give justice to the issue in hand.
That said, when dealing with the internal arrangements of the Scottish Parliament, it is important that we remember the words in the White Paper which the previous Government published when Mr Donald Dewar was Secretary of State for Scotland, in 1997. The White Paper said:
“The Government intend the minimum of legislation to establish the Scottish Parliament; and wherever possible to leave the Scottish Parliament to decide for itself what its procedures should be”.
This Government believe that that statement holds as true today as it did in 1997. The Government do not believe that it is appropriate for the United Kingdom Parliament to place restrictions on the freedom of the Scottish Parliament to administer its own affairs. It is now embedded within our UK constitutional arrangements, and our view is that the Scottish Parliament is capable of making its own changes to procedures as it sees fit.
As the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, mentioned, on 21 December the Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee of the Scottish Parliament published the phase 1 report of its inquiry into the reform of parliamentary business, which is appropriately entitled Remodelling the Parliamentary Week. I do not know whether that happened as a result of or in spite of this amendment, but as the noble Lord indicated when moving the amendment, it certainly was timely. The committee undertook its inquiry into parliamentary business last September in order to review the Parliament’s procedures and recommend areas for improvement and change. As I indicated, it is a phase 1 report. The aim of the inquiry is to give the Scottish Parliament greater scrutiny and responsiveness to emerging issues of importance to the people of Scotland.
The report makes a number of recommendations. My understanding is that they will soon be debated in the Scottish Parliament and, if agreed, implemented after the Easter Recess. Recommendation 1 states,
“that the sitting patterns of the Parliament should be changed to allow committee meetings to take place on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday mornings with Chamber business on those afternoons”.
This would mean that the Parliament will sit for three days a week when it is sitting, which would meet part of what the noble Lord’s amendment aims to do. The report does not make any recommendations on the other two parts of the noble Lord’s amendment—to ensure that the Parliament sits on at least 30 weeks of the calendar year, and not to adjourn for a period of more than 60 consecutive days. However, the report concluded that,
“given the need to protect the”—
respect—
“between the Chamber and committee business, and to protect time for engagement with civic Scotland, the amount of time allocated to each of these priorities at present is broadly correct”.
I have however noted that as the inquiry evolved, it also looked at how the likely addition of new powers and responsibilities proposed in this Bill would need to be taken into account, as further timetabling commitments will need to be made to scrutinise the use of these new powers for the Scottish Government and Parliament. As my noble friend Lord Forsyth indicated in a question, where does the responsibility lie? It is for the standing orders of the Scottish Parliament.
My recollection, though, is that there is also a considerable amount of flexibility. When I was a Member of the Scottish Parliament—more recent Members can correct me—although the normal starting time on a Wednesday, with time for reflection, was 2.30 pm, noble Lords will have realised that yesterday the Parliament managed to sit at 1.35 pm in order for the First Minister to make his statement launching his consultation document, no doubt so that he could then hot-foot it to his appointment with the world’s press at 3 pm in the Great Hall at Edinburgh Castle. I recall other occasions—for example, when it was clear that stage three of the Bill was going to take much longer—when there was flexibility to sit earlier or later.
My noble friend Lord Selkirk asked about the recommendation from the Calman commission regarding the separation of time to allow more time at stage three if new amendments come up, which would engage more stakeholders. I indicate to him that that is obviously a matter for the Scottish Parliament, but I will write to him and other Members of the Committee who are participating in our deliberations to give our understanding of the up-to-date position with regard to the Scottish Parliament’s response to that recommendation.
The Scottish Parliament, now 12 or almost 13 years old, is capable of reviewing its own processes, but we are showing our willingness to look at this issue too. I hope that in those circumstances the noble Lord will feel that the amendment is unnecessary and withdraw his amendment.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, what surprises me is how the Scottish Parliament in its procedures seems more rigid and in its lack of flexibility seems more sclerotic than even this Chamber, let alone the House of Commons. We have already heard examples from the noble Lord, Lord Stephen, about having less than four minutes to contribute to a debate, which are true. We have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Selkirk, about the recommendations regarding later stages being rushed and civic society not having an opportunity to participate fully, and I have appreciated that as well. The Minister himself said that getting everything in when you are given only seven minutes to talk about the economy is a formidable task.
Under the proposals, all that will happen is that they will meet for three days but only for half a day each, so it is still really effectively only a day and a half. That is not a huge amount extra. Of course it is up to the Scottish Parliament, and I am going to withdraw the amendment on that basis, but, speaking as a member of the public in Scotland rather than a nominated Member here, I would expect that the Scottish Parliament might sit rather more than that and spend rather more time discussing some of the major issues that it has to deal with.
Perhaps we should not be saying this because we are non-elected and they all think of us as Neanderthals. I have been around for an awfully long time; I have just had a birthday, as someone diplomatically pointed out earlier. Perhaps we should not be lecturing the Scottish Parliament, but it is just a wee bit strange that it is not lengthening the times of its plenary sessions a little. I shall leave it at that and withdraw.
Lord Maclennan of Rogart
Before the noble Lord withdraws his amendment, could he inform us whether there is a standing committee in the Scottish Parliament that keeps these matters under review, or is it the case that this is just an ad hoc inquiry?
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
I think there is a procedures committee that deals with this question in a review.
There are people who have held more distinguished positions than I did in the Scottish Parliament as Deputy First Minister, acting First Minister and Presiding Officer and who have been around for a long time, but I got the impression that the Scottish Parliament was very set in its ways, and for a new Parliament that is very strange. I tried gently to suggest some innovations, when I was a Member and I had some right to do so, and it was very reluctant to accept any of them. It is ironical that we have had more changes, improvements and developments of our procedures in the House of Lords during my time here than I saw in all my time in the Scottish Parliament. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
“Discussion of reserved matters
(1) Schedule 3 to the 1998 Act (Standing orders—further provision) is amended as follows.
(2) After paragraph 7 insert—
“Reserved matters8. The standing orders shall include provision for ensuring that the Parliament shall not discuss items in Schedule 5 (reserved matters) except on a motion to make representations to the United Kingdom Government.””
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
Members will be getting fed up with my voice by now. I am glad that I withdrew the previous amendment and did not move Amendments 4 and 5. I tabled those amendments but I could have put down dozens more. There is a whole range of issues that we could have discussed. If we had wanted to cause trouble—heaven forbid that I should cause trouble here—I could have tabled dozens of amendments and delayed us. The fact that we are getting though the Bill relatively rapidly shows the good will of not just the Front Bench but the Back Benches on this side towards the coalition Government. Whether they deserve it is another matter, but they are getting it.
I come now to the discussion of reserved matters, which relates in some ways to the previous amendment. In my time in the Scottish Parliament—I think this will apply to other Members here who were Members of the Scottish Parliament—it was very frustrating that the SNP in particular would use up the limited time available, including government time, for discussion of reserved matters. These included foreign affairs and defence; they went on and on about these areas. It is understandable that they should discuss them where they impinge on some of the Scottish Parliament’s responsibilities, but it worried me that it restricted the time for discussion of very important matters.
We have devolved to the Scottish Parliament some of the major areas that affect the lives of people in Scotland, such as all aspects of education. However, there were no really detailed debates on it. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester would be astonished if he came to the Scottish Parliament and saw how little time it spends on discussing the details and development of education in the forum of the plenary sessions. Then there is the development of the health service, with telemedicine and all the new developments that are taking place; and social work and the links between it and education and housing. There are many issues that the Scottish Parliament should be discussing, but it never seems to get around to doing so. These are vitally important issues.
This is a related issue but it is slightly different. I also get the feeling that, as the SNP has moved into the ascendancy, first as a minority and now as a majority Government, it seeks to operate almost as a de facto if not de jure independent Parliament. It wants to take on more responsibilities and pretend or imagine that it is dealing with all these issues. I had occasion to raise this with Sir Gus O’Donnell, now the noble Lord, Lord O’Donnell, in a question about the Permanent Secretaries—first Sir John Elvidge and, more recently, Sir Peter Housden, who has gone native since he moved. He is from Shropshire originally, a lovely county of England, as I know only too well. They seem to be advising the Scottish Executive on how to move towards independence. They seem to be giving them all the advice, guidance and detail that they need and, in Sir Peter’s case, almost encouragement to move towards independence. I hope that Sir Jeremy Heywood—he has a more pragmatic and sensible view on this than Sir Gus O’Donnell, but perhaps I should be careful about saying that—will look at things in a more pragmatic and sensible way and remind Sir Peter Housden that he is still a member of the UK Civil Service and still owes some loyalty to the Crown and the United Kingdom Parliament although he has been seconded to the Scottish Parliament and should not be dealing with these matters.
It is fair enough for the Scottish Parliament to consider reserved matters when it wishes to make representations on them to the Westminster Parliament, particularly to the House of Commons. However, for it to have debates on nuclear weapons, defence policy, foreign affairs issues, reserved aspects of welfare or on major economic issues which are still the responsibility of this Parliament and the UK Government, seems to me not just wrong in principle but a waste of the Scottish Parliament’s valuable time. I hope that we will send a message to it that—
Lord Wigley
Obviously we come to this question from different perspectives, but if the amendment were passed would it not preclude debate on matters such as industrial and trade links abroad, which are relevant to the economy; matters relating to cultural exchanges abroad, which I would have thought would certainly be part of the remit of the Scottish Parliament; and, indeed, debate on a host of other matters which link through to the European Union, where there is clearly an interest in Scotland having a voice in those areas?
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
It is certainly not intended that the amendment should do that. It says,
“except on a motion to make representations to the United Kingdom Government”.
I should have thought that the areas that the noble Lord mentioned are ones on which the Scottish Parliament might wish to make representations to the United Kingdom Government. However, my noble friend may have a point in that the amendment’s wording is not as exact as it could be. There are areas where the Scottish Parliament contributes in this regard. For instance, when I was a development Minister, I encouraged it to take an interest in development matters, just as local authorities and private enterprise do. However, it is a different matter when the Scottish Parliament tries to deliberate on policy in relation to these issues.
This is a difficult area and the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, is right to point to a difficulty. Nevertheless, this Parliament is very careful not to talk about areas that are devolved to the Scottish Parliament. We are sensitive—perhaps sometimes oversensitive—about not dealing with those areas. As I think my noble friend Lord Sewel said in an earlier debate, we still have the right to legislate on any of them. If we wanted to, we could override the decisions of the Scottish Parliament and tell it what to do. However, we do not do that. We are very sensitive and very cautious, perhaps even oversensitive, as I say, but the Scottish Parliament does not reciprocate that sensitivity and caution as regards trampling on reserved areas.
The noble Lord, Lord Steel, will recall that he made the original ruling about the areas that could be discussed. That gave the Scottish Parliament an opportunity to discuss certain areas which it has subsequently expanded and exploited to a degree which was not intended at the time that the noble Lord made that ruling when he was Presiding Officer. I hope that we can send a message to the Scottish Parliament that it should respect our reserved areas just as we respect the devolved areas.
Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke
Perhaps I may make a brief intervention in support of my noble friend’s amendment. I, too, should declare an interest. I was at the famous party also, and if I had thought that visiting a football park could be so much fun, I might have gone before now.
I support the amendment because I am particularly exercised about the extent to which the reserved area of foreign affairs is often affected by debate in the Scottish Parliament, and at some of the attitudes that are adopted by Members of the Scottish Parliament as they go abroad. In particular, in the English-speaking Commonwealth, where BBC News, BBC Parliament and Sky are available, the interlocutors among us who have been practitioners in foreign affairs are perhaps watching debates in the Scottish Parliament or are picking up stories on foreign affairs that come out of it that can make life difficult for our people who are involved in sometimes sensitive negotiations. Usually, such debates are set against a background of imperfect knowledge as to why issues are being raised and discussed.
My noble friend Lord Foulkes made a valid point when he said that we go to great lengths in this Parliament to ensure that we do not trespass on devolved affairs. Since the beginning of the Scottish Parliament, there has been a laxness of attitude to straying into reserved areas. I am not suggesting that Members of the Scottish Parliament, be they in the Scottish Government or otherwise, should be grounded, but I ask your Lordships to take into account that one of the conventions of this Parliament is that when you travel abroad you do not criticise your own Government, even if it is a Government of a different colour to the party that you are a member of. That can increasingly be undermined by interventions from people who do not owe any loyalty to the concept of the foreign policy of the United Kingdom.
This may seem an arcane part of the debate and, without doubt, it will be portrayed as carping about the magnificent foreign policy of the Scottish Parliament, but there are men and women around the world today doing very difficult jobs in sometimes difficult circumstances. They are not helped by voices off.
Lord Maclennan of Rogart
My Lords, I would not like it to be thought that the views expressed in the previous two interventions were partisan in any sense. I certainly identify with those comments.
It appears to me that if the principle of subsidiarity distributes powers up and down, there should be clear and at least conventional understandings as to the limitations of interventions in respect of matters that are principally for one tier of government. This is not an absolute distinction. In the Lisbon treaty affecting the governance of the European Union, provision has been made for national Parliaments to participate in dialogue with the institutions of the EU about matters in which they are interested. Of course, we have in this House a Select Committee on European affairs and we offer thoughts and advice, but do not attempt to give any impression—and I believe we do not—that we are actually responsible for the matters that are being decided upon. Too often, the voices expressed, particularly by the Scottish National Party, attempt to give that impression.
Although it may not be a requirement that we lay down the law, as it were, it is a worthy motive that inspired the amendment and it emphasises what should be a clear convention. If the Scottish Parliament or any part of it, or a majority in it, want to engage the Government of the United Kingdom in discussion, it would be sensible to adopt the noble Lord’s amendment—and I hope that Members of the Scottish Parliament will take note of these recommendations.
Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, I raise one point on the amendment, which is slightly wide of the purpose and message of the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes. Can my noble and learned friend explain why energy is a reserved matter in the Scotland Act, but, because planning powers are devolved to the Scottish Parliament, the Scottish National Party Government see fit to do nothing about the Torness nuclear station and others in Scotland? After all, when I was happy to be in government dealing with the Electricity Bill, we managed to include powers for the interconnector to send nuclear-generated electricity south of the border. To my mind, that will stop unless something can be done to reverse that decision. It seems a total anomaly in the Scotland Act that a reserved matter such as energy cannot be fulfilled for nuclear energy because of the planning powers of the Scottish Parliament.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, just to show that the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, and I have not formed some kind of alliance for the purposes of the Bill, I do not agree with the amendment. I agree with the sentiment, which is that the Scottish Parliament should, in so far as is practical, confine its activities to its responsibilities, but to try to write that down is capable of being interpreted as trying to gag the Parliament. I can imagine circumstances in which it might wish to discuss things that are not within its immediate bailiwick and which might not be for representations to the United Kingdom Government. For example, were I a Member of the Scottish Parliament at the moment, I would want a debate on how the Bank of England, rather than the Bank of China, could become the lender of last resort to an independent Scotland. Under the amendment, it would be impossible for one to have that debate. As the First Minister has raised that startling question in the past few days, it would be entirely appropriate for people to raise such issues.
On a more serious matter, at the end of the day, this House and the other place work on the basis of convention. A convention is that we do not discuss devolved matters, and that is respected. That relates to the leadership of the organisation. One of the tragic things in the Scottish Parliament, as the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, pointed out earlier, is that the leadership seems determined to upset the neighbours and to use that to achieve a political objective. It is fair enough to use the Scottish Parliament as a platform to make the case for policy and ideas and to try to persuade the voters, but to use it as a platform in order deliberately to create dissent and division is not the purpose of it. I suspect there is nothing that we can do by way of passing amendments to the law that will change that. To change the way in which the Parliament operates it is necessary to change the calibre and nature of the leadership in the Parliament itself.
Lord Boyd of Duncansby
My Lords, we recognise the frustrations that have been expressed here, especially that this House and the other place have a self-denying ordinance and convention that we do not discuss devolved areas, but that is not respected in the Scottish Parliament. Nevertheless, there are three particular problems with the amendment.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, in responding to the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, I am very tempted to adopt the argument of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Boyd of Duncansby, who made the case very cogently. Of course, there is a clear distinction in many cases with regard to reserved matters. I am coming to the point raised by my noble friend Lord Sanderson which was picked up by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Boyd, as to what is reserved. It is not just that the genie is out of the bottle but paragraph 2.5 of the White Paper, published in 1997 as a prelude to the referendum and the Scotland Bill and Act states:
“The Scottish Parliament will also be able to examine devolved matters and debate a wide range of issues of interest and concern in Scotland, whether devolved or reserved”.
My recollection of the debates all those years ago was that it was understood that there would be such debates.
I also seem to recall in the early days of the Scottish Parliament, with our fledgling coalition between the Labour Party and the Liberal Democrats, that the Scottish National Party Opposition liked nothing better than to identify a reserved matter at Westminster where the Labour Party and the Liberal Democrats were on opposite sides of the argument. The SNP would wish to debate those Motions to try to drive wedges through the coalition and we usually found some way out, either by having no executive line or by tabling an amendment recognising the position of both parties. After a while the SNP gave up because it realised that it was not having the desired effect of driving a wedge between the coalition partners.
On occasions it will be necessary for the Scottish Parliament to discuss reserved matters when changes have been made that have an impact in Scotland. For example, in November last year the Parliament debated maritime safety and coastguards. I certainly share the view of the noble and learned Lord that it would be allowed if it was making representations to the UK Government. One can imagine many Motions starting with the words, “This Parliament calls on the United Kingdom Government to”, for example, “not allow the Bank of England to become the bank of last resort”, or whatever. It would not require too much ingenuity to do that.
The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, had ministerial responsibility for international development matters in the previous Administration. While that area was a reserved matter, none the less there was a Scottish interest that was considered legitimate. I pay tribute to the work that was done in the then Scottish Parliament and Executive by the noble Lord, Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale, in taking forward and developing a relationship between Scotland and Malawi. That was thought all round to be positive and helpful.
The noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, rightly highlighted the difficulties that people sometimes have in not knowing what the relationship is between the Scottish and Westminster Parliaments. They might read things into debates on foreign policy. Therefore, it is important that when people engage in matters of such sensitivity in whatever forum, they do so in a measured and constructive way. I remember—and not just because I took part in it myself—that one of the best debates in the Scottish Parliament was in March 2003, on the eve of the military action in Iraq. The view was that everyone else was talking about it so it would look very odd if the Scottish Parliament did not. There was no line from the Executive because the Labour Party and the Liberal Democrats took different views. It is worth recalling that I moved an amendment on behalf of the Liberal Democrats that opposed intervention in Iraq. Because of the myth that has built up, it is worth remembering that the Scottish Parliament approved military intervention in Iraq in its vote in March 2003, ahead of the event happening. However, by all accounts at the time, it was a good debate.
There will be occasions when there is an interweaving of the issues. My noble friend referred at Second Reading to the question of energy, which is a reserved matter. Renewable energy has been devolved. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Boyd, indicated, powers under Section 36 of the Electricity Act give Scottish Ministers substantial powers with regard to the licensing of power stations. There is a connection here—even an interconnection—which makes it important that both Parliaments and Governments must co-operate in trying to ensure that, where there is shared responsibility, the issues are properly addressed.
The Duke of Montrose
My Lords, perhaps my noble and learned friend could help me. As time has passed and habit has developed, we have found that the Scottish Parliament can discuss anything that it wishes, and express opinions. If something like the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, was passed, it would be limited to things that it wished to refer to this Parliament. Of course, discussion on the question of a referendum is probably something that the Scottish Government could say was referable to this Parliament. My noble and learned friend talked about the resolutions that were passed by the noble Lord, Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale, on helping Malawi. Is there any limit to the amount of money that the Scottish Government can spend on things that are not devolved? It would be interesting in particular to know how much money they would be allowed to spend on a referendum. My noble and learned friend will know that there is an 80-page Bill attached to the consultative paper that was produced by the Scottish Parliament. It did not just drop out of the sky in a pre-formed manner. A great deal of time and expense was put into it.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
The first thing I will say in response to my noble friend is that this is not something that has just grown up over the years. As I indicated, it was anticipated from the outset—in the White Paper in 1997—that there would be this opportunity. On the specific case of Malawi, there is a provision in the Scotland Act that allows Scottish Ministers to give assistance to UK Ministers and the UK Government. The co-operation at the time between the international development department and the Scottish Executive allowed that to proceed.
My noble friend raised an important point about a referendum. The United Kingdom Government made it very clear, in our consultation paper of 10 January, that the Scottish Parliament cannot legislate on reserved matters, including on an independence referendum. We have also indicated a preference for a Section 30 order, as have the Scottish Government. By the very nature of a Section 30 order, it deals with things that are currently reserved. One of the earliest was on railways. Therefore it is inevitable that there will be some expenditure and some legitimate activity by Scottish Ministers, who have to discuss and negotiate the terms of any order—which, by definition, must relate to a reserved matter—but look forward to agreeing between the two Governments to put a Section 30 order to both Parliaments. That is clearly why it is important, not just in the context of a referendum but in the context of other areas where a Section 30 order has been used where there has been a transfer of powers from one Parliament to the other, that there is proper co-ordination and consideration. Indeed, in terms of a number of powers in this Bill, there has clearly been discussion between both Governments.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
Could my noble and learned friend help with the point that was raised by my noble friend the Duke of Montrose about the position in respect of expenditure incurred on matters that are not within the legal competence of the Parliament? Who is accountable for that? Is it the Permanent Secretary as the accounting officer, the executive members or the Members of the Scottish Parliament? What, if any, sanction is there if there is expenditure that is ultra vires?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My noble friend has tabled an amendment on this issue that we will come to. I suspect that the accounting officer must have responsibility in these matters. However, as I sought to indicate, it would be very perverse if the United Kingdom Government invited a response and a consultation and then said that it was beyond the Scottish Parliament’s competence to engage in it. My noble friend raises an important point, and we will come to his amendment, which will be a proper opportunity to look at that in more detail.
As I indicated, in the case made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Boyd, it is very difficult to draw the line. It does not cure the problem, but it is not beyond the wit to come up with the appropriate Motion to put before the Scottish Parliament. My noble friend Lord Forsyth and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Boyd, made the point that the genie is out of the bottle. Indeed, it was intended as long ago as the original White Paper that there should be an opportunity to debate these reserved matters. In these circumstances, I invite the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
I have found this debate very helpful, although it pointed out that my amendment is less than perfect. A lot of interesting issues have been raised, not least that raised most recently by the noble Duke, the Duke of Montrose, and picked up by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, because according to this consultative document written submissions have to go to the Elections and Constitutional Development Division at Victoria Quay. I remember asking a number of questions and, no doubt, some MSPs are still asking questions about how many civil servants there are in these divisions dealing with breaking up the United Kingdom. They are spending taxpayers’ money to employ officials to move Alex Salmond’s dream a bit closer. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, asked a good question, which needs to be pursued, about how much money is being spent on that and whether it is ultra vires. That is, no doubt, something that we will be taking up on another occasion. It is a very serious matter. It is not just a question of printing the document; it is a question of the civil servants who could be better employed dealing with education, which is pretty ropey and not being dealt with in a perfect manner—let us put it that way—in Scotland at the moment, or with the health service, which is under pressure in Scotland. It would be better to use that money to employ nurses, teachers and policemen rather than these civil servants. I hope the noble Duke, the Duke of Montrose, and the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, will pursue this important matter.
Lord Selkirk of Douglas
Lord Selkirk of Douglas
My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 8 and 11. In seeking to speak earlier, I was confusing Clause 7 with Amendment 7; I was not trying to hurry up the noble Lord—which would have been impossible in any case.
The purpose of Amendments 8 and 11 is to include the law officers—it could be the Attorney-General, the Advocate-General for Scotland or the Lord Advocate—among those who would be responsible for publishing a reference of a part of a Bill to the Supreme Court. The Bill lays down that it should be the Presiding Officer who should publish a notice of the reference to the court in the Edinburgh Gazette, and in such other ways as the Presiding Officer considers appropriate. As the reference should probably be made in most cases by one of the law officers, surely it is appropriate that it should be his or her responsibility to publish the fact that a reference has been made; for example, by putting it on the departmental website. The amendment ensures that the Executive take responsibility for publishing references made by them, thus showing a respect for the doctrine of the separation of powers.
I notice that the Minister has put down Amendments 9 and 10, which may achieve very much the same objective. If I am correct in that assumption, and they fulfil the same purpose but rather better—or at least are better expressed—I will not insist on these amendments and will withdraw them. In any case, I very much look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say.
Lord Boyd of Duncansby
My Lords, this group includes a notice in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Browne about Clause 7 standing part of the Bill. I will start with that and deal with the other amendments in due course.
Clause 7 introduces a new mechanism of a limited reference of a Bill to the Supreme Court to determine whether certain provisions of the Bill are within the competence of the Scottish Parliament. At present, once a Bill has passed through all its stages in the Scottish Parliament, it is for the Presiding Officer to present the Bill to Her Majesty for Royal Assent. However, before the submission for Royal Assent, there is a 28-day period during which the law officers—the Advocate-General, the Lord Advocate and the Attorney-General—can consider the Bill and if so advised refer it under Section 33 of the Scotland Act to the Supreme Court on a question as to whether any of its provisions is within the competence of the Scottish Parliament. Under Section 33, the whole Bill is referred and there is no mechanism to refer only certain parts of the Bill. Even if only one part is thought to be outwith the competence, none of it can be commenced until that issue is disposed of.
That explanation of the effect of a reference under Section 33 perhaps sets out the argument for the Government’s proposals in Clause 7. However, there are serious concerns as to how this will work in practice. I hope that this debate will draw out some of the rationale behind their proposals. To date, there has been no reference under Section 33 to the Supreme Court of a Scottish parliamentary Bill.
It might help if I briefly set out the internal procedures put in place during my time as Lord Advocate to ensure that Scottish Bills were within the competence of the Parliament. A Bill introduced into the Scottish Parliament by a Scottish Minister must be accompanied by a statement under Section 31 of the Scotland Act that in his or her opinion the Bill is within the legislative competence of the Parliament. Members of this House will be familiar with that kind of statement because all Bills presented here are accompanied by a statement made under Section 19(1)(a) of the Human Rights Act. The Scotland Bill is no exception to that. Therefore, there is a certificate, as it were, on all Scottish Bills which are put into the Scottish Parliament.
Certainly, in my time as Lord Advocate, no statement would be given by a Minister without their having sought the advice of the law officers that it could be made. I cannot speak for present procedures and it is possible that they have changed, although I have no reason to think that they have. Nevertheless, there are in place substantial internal procedures to ensure that Bills are within competence. In reaching a view on the competence of a Bill, there were a number of procedures. Those who were Ministers at the time will recall the passporting arrangements whereby there was a process with the Minister for parliamentary business and the Lord Advocate to have what in the UK Government would be a legislation committee—certainly, when I was Solicitor-General there was a legislation committee—which considered all the issues that were thrown up by the Bill, including legislative competence.
In addition, officials from the law officers’ departments were in constant touch with each other. We would talk to officials within the Advocate-General’s office and, for that matter, the Attorney’s office. Officials in the Scottish Government Legal Directorate would also engage with relevant departmental officials—for example, in the Home Office—to ensure that issues were identified at an early stage.
The role of the Presiding Officer is very important. The noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood, will have had first-hand knowledge of that. The Presiding Officer must decide whether a Bill presented to the Scottish Parliament is within the competence of the Parliament, although I think I am right in saying that the standing orders allow for that decision to be overridden by the Parliament, but nevertheless it is an important element. Again, contacts were made between the office of the Presiding Officer and the law officers to ensure, as far as possible, that any Bill presented was within competence.
On amendments to Bills as they proceed through Parliament, it is true that not all amendments were referred to the law officers, but those that might cause an issue again were referred. I can say that on more than one occasion I did make it known both within the Executive, as well as on occasion to the individual Member who had proposed the amendment, that if it found its way into the Bill, the question of legislative competence would arise and that I or another law officer might have to refer the issue of competence to what was then the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council and is now the Supreme Court. So my experience is that a number of mechanisms are available for the detailed consideration of a Scottish Bill at all stages of its passage through the Scottish Parliament, and that issues of competence should be dealt with in that process. Even so, the Bill would be given another look once it had gone through all its processes. We usually took 28 days to do that, although there were occasions when there was an emergency and the law officers dispensed with the period of 28 days.
What this clause now proposes is that there will be a mechanism for referring part of a Bill to the Supreme Court for scrutiny. As I understand it, what will happen is that the Bill could still be given Royal Assent despite the limited reference while the issue is being considered by the Supreme Court. There is a mechanism for the remaining unaffected parts of the Bill to be brought into effect. However—I am looking for some guidance from the noble and learned Lord on this—as I also understand it, the Supreme Court would have a significant role in determining or making provision for how it would come into effect. I shall come back to that in a moment.
The Scottish Government have said that they are not in favour of this. An interesting point is the question of whether it is desirable to ask Her Majesty for Royal Assent to a Bill with disputed provisions in it. There may well be a point to be made about that, although perhaps not to be pressed too far. Nevertheless, there is also the question of what signal that would give the general public. Legislation on the statute book may not be in force but usually there is no question mark as to its validity. Moreover, the provision that:
“The Queen’s Printer for Scotland may publish notice of the reference and of the effect”,
may not be sufficient.
Clause 7 was not one of the recommendations of the Calman commission. I think it arose as a result of the commission’s general recommendation that:
“There should be a review of all other provisions in the Act that constrain the Parliament in terms of its procedures or working arrangements to ensure they are proportionate, appropriate and effective”.
I do not criticise the Scotland Office for having embarked on that, but the Government have identified through the review a number of areas, including this one, where they could make further provision.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, it has been amply demonstrated by the remarks of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Boyd, that, as things currently stand, whole Bills can be delayed—possibly for months—should only a single provision be referred to the Supreme Court to determine whether it was within legislative competence. Section 33 of the Scotland Act 1998 contains a power to allow the law officers to refer Bills passed by the Scottish Parliament to the Supreme Court to determine whether they are within legislative competence prior to Royal Assent to the legislation.
The Scotland Bill provides the Government with an opportunity to re-examine this power. Indeed, as the noble and learned Lord indicated, the Calman recommendations encouraged a general sweep-up, and so within the Scotland Office and the Office of the Advocate-General we looked at all the different matters that had arisen and at where there were opportunities to amend, and some of these are reflected in other parts of the Bill.
It is very helpful that the Committee has been informed by the noble and learned Lord, from his many distinguished years of experience as Lord Advocate, as to how the process works. I should put on record from the UK Government’s side that officials in my department talk day in and day out to officials in the Scottish Government’s legal department on proposed Bills and orders to ensure that they come within competence. They discuss particular issues, and sometimes, when it is found not possible to get a solution under the legislation to be passed by the Scottish Parliament, orders under Section 104 of the Scotland Act can be brought forward to give effect to certain provisions. One sometimes sees headlines about the more controversial issues. We should not lose sight of the regular and valuable work done by officials in respective Governments to try and resolve many of these issues.
Likewise, officials within my department monitor Bills as they go through the Scottish Parliament. In a similar way to when the noble and learned Lord was Lord Advocate and during the 28-day period, these matters were looked at in my own department and ultimately referred to me to decide whether to refer them to the Supreme Court under Section 33. I share this thought with the noble and learned Lord. I recall from being a Minister when he was Lord Advocate the thoroughness with which that was done. Yet shortly after I took up office as Advocate-General, a case came before the High Court of Justiciary involving the competence of an order of lifelong restriction when someone had been convicted of an offence solely under the Firearms Act. That is of course a reserved matter. The question was whether the order was competent. The general view was that it was not, and ultimately the Crown did not defend the appeal. One of my officials said, “Who was the Minister who signed the original Bill as being competent?”. I had to hold my hand up, but I will not say who the law officer was who gave me that advice. It is fair to say that the other parts of the Bill stand with regard to the order of lifelong restriction and to offences that were either common law or related to devolved matters. That underlines the fact that a considerable amount of effort and work go into this.
With this clause, we sought to prevent unnecessary delays to Bills the majority of provisions of which are considered to be within the competence of the Scottish Parliament. In these circumstances, the affected Bill would be submitted for Royal Assent by the Presiding Officer, while the disputed provisions would not come into force until the Supreme Court had reached a decision and Scottish Ministers had made the appropriate commencement order.
As the noble and learned Lord indicated, this power has not been used to date. As I have indicated, that is testament to the engagement between the UK and Scottish Governments, both under the current Administrations and previous ones. We do not really need to be reminded of how much both Parliaments enjoy, particularly in the field of criminal justice, so-called Christmas tree Bills to which bits are added here, there and everywhere. No doubt there is a need to address some recent development, or some official remembers a particular problem that needs sorting out. It would be regrettable if a Bill whose provisions for the most part were well within competence had one particular clause thought to be outwith competence and that had to be referred to the Supreme Court for a determination that held up the whole Bill. We wish to address that issue.
The limited procedure that we propose seeks to do that. I will deal with some of the amendments before addressing some of the points raised by the noble and learned Lord.
Lord Stephen
Before moving on, might the noble and learned Lord at this stage or later in his remarks take the opportunity to refer to an issue relating to the SNP Government’s proposed referendum Bill, on which he will be aware of very clear legal advice to the UK Government? Given the current procedures and how they might be affected by the proposals in this Bill, what is his understanding of the position within the Scottish Parliament on involving the law officers in Scotland if the referendum Bill moved forward?
If law officers were to advise the Presiding Officer that the Bill, or any other piece of legislation—the noble Lord, Lord Steel, will have much experience in this regard—was not legislatively competent, would that advice become apparent at any stage? Need that advice become public in any way? This is a matter of huge interest at the moment in Scotland.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
To take the first part of the question, about the law officers, it is part of the Ministerial Code. We have tried to be very careful with regard to the referendum matter, although we may not have managed it all the time, to say, “This is the view of the United Kingdom Government”, because the Ministerial Code says that it may not be disclosed whether or not law officers have been asked for advice, let alone what the advice may be. The Ministerial Code is written in almost, but not quite, identical terms for the Scottish Government, and I would therefore certainly not ask the Scottish Government to produce their legal advice. If they refused to produce it or even to disclose whether they had sought it, that would be totally consistent with the Ministerial Code. However, it is perfectly legitimate to challenge them, if they assert something, about the basis on which they assert it, without asking them if there has been legal advice.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
I always wonder what is meant by legal advice—legal opinion from a counsel, or whatever. Let us take an example. Let us say that the Lord Advocate went to Glasgow University and gave a learned lecture about the law on the legality of a referendum. Is that legal advice?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
A public lecture is clearly not the same as advice that counsel would give to his or her client. This is probably not the place to debate the pros and cons of the Ministerial Code on legal advice, but legal advice is an opinion of the law officers given on a particular issue to a client department.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
Is it not reasonable to assume that if a law officer states a legal opinion in the course of a lecture at Glasgow University, that might just be the same as the legal advice that he gives a Minister in a Government?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I express the view of the United Kingdom Government; I shall leave it at that. There is good reason why the convention is there, and it has been quite rigidly adhered to by law officers of all Administrations, in Scotland and the United Kingdom generally.
The noble Lord, Lord Stephen, also asked about the legal advice given to a Presiding Officer. The Ministerial Code arrangements for that are clearly not the same. Off the top of my head, I could not say whether that legal advice would be made available or not, or what the response would be if someone wanted to FoI it. It might well be that it is advice given by a lawyer and that there are categories of exemptions for legal advice. It might be a matter that would end up in the courts—I am not going to express a view on it.
Lord Stephen
My point is that when my noble and learned friend and I were in government, I recall that we went to quite extreme lengths to make sure that a piece of legislation was within legislative competence. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Boyd, has already referred to those matters. Part of the hard work that was done was to ensure that a piece of legislation would get the approval of the Presiding Officer. My understanding was always that if there was a conflict with the Presiding Officer, we would work on the legislation and make sure that it was within legal competence, as defined by the Presiding Officer. From what has been said this afternoon, a Government can, as I understand it, in effect defy the ruling of the Presiding Officer and push forward with the legislation, and no one in the Scottish Parliament—indeed, no one in Scotland—would be aware that the Presiding Officer had been overridden. That is my understanding of what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Boyd, and my noble and learned friend indicated. I suppose the question is: in what way would it be known that, for example, the referendum Bill had been laid before the Scottish Parliament even though the Presiding Officer had not approved it as being within legislative competence?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
Perhaps I can clarify for my noble friend that Section 31 of the Scotland Act 1998 is relevant in this regard. It states:
“A member of the Scottish Executive in charge of a Bill shall, on or before introduction of the Bill in the Parliament, state that in his view the provisions of the Bill would be within the legislative competence of the Parliament”.
Subsection (2) says:
“The Presiding Officer shall, on or before the introduction of a Bill in the Parliament, decide whether or not in his view”—
or in the case now, in her view—
“the provisions of the Bill would be within the legislative competence of the Parliament and state his decision”,
so the Presiding Officer has to state their decision as to whether it is within competence.
Let us take this away from the question of the referendum Bill, because our ambition here is not to get into that position; it is to reach an agreement, preferably on a Section 30 order. However, in general, the Presiding Officer has to decide whether the provisions of the Bill would, in their view, be within the legislative competence of the Parliament, and has to make that decision public. It is still the case that the Parliament could proceed to debate and process the Bill notwithstanding that, but there are obviously political ramifications. I could imagine some pretty lively debates if that was to be the case.
Lord Boyd of Duncansby
Could I clarify something which I think I asked? I am not entirely sure that I have got it over. On the provisions on the statement in Section 31, I said that in my time as Lord Advocate the law officer had to give their approval to that. That is a matter of public record and has been said many times before. I do not know whether that has changed in any way and I cannot recall whether it was part of the Ministerial Code that the Minister could not make that statement without the law officer's approval. If it was part of the Ministerial Code, I cannot think that it would be departed from. If it was simply an internal arrangement, it could of course have been departed from and one could speculate as to what procedures would now be in place.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
The noble and learned Lord is right. We cannot speculate on what happens in an Administration of whom we are not members, but I can confirm what my noble friend and the noble and learned Lord said about the Administration of whom the three of us were members. The procedures and proceedings in these matters were as they have described.
To return to Clause 7, the limited reference procedure that we are seeking would therefore allow the law officers to refer to the Supreme Court only the provisions with which they have competency concerns, while, as I said, allowing the rest to go forward to Royal Assent. We believe that this is an appropriate and sensible method of helping to ensure that the work of the Scottish Parliament runs as smoothly as possible.
On the amendments tabled by my noble friend Lord Selkirk to Clause 7, through our engagement with the Law Society of Scotland the Government have, as my noble friend indicated, tabled amendments that reflect the intention behind his amendments. I wish to thank my noble friend for looking at this clause closely and for tabling his amendments. The government amendments have the same effect; I am advised that parliamentary counsel think that they have a more appropriate form of wording, but the effect is exactly the same. We therefore very much support the amendments that he has tabled, and I hope he will withdraw his amendment in respect of the other amendments that have been tabled.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
I am grateful to the Minister. He will understand why I seek to intervene at this stage. I think it would be appropriate to point out that in the House of Commons Tom Greatrex moved a very similar amendment that was rejected, or at least not supported, by the Government at that time. The gratitude of the House to those who have created this resolution to the problem needs to be shared by him as well.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
Indeed, what we have here is a better outcome than what was there before. We reflected on what had been said, the representations that we had received and the amendments that had been tabled, and came to the conclusion that this was the best way forward on this point.
Lord Boyd of Duncansby
I was not quite sure if the Minister was now coming to an end. I wanted to press him on one point. Whatever view he may take of the utility of the measure that he is putting forward, what weight does he put on the view of the Scottish Parliament—whose legislation this is, after all—that it does not want this? Does he think that it is right to press it in the face of that opposition? Or does he think that, because he as Advocate-General and his successors in that office will have to operate this, this is something that the UK Government want, despite what the devolved Administration think?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I also need to address some of the points regarding the amendments in my own name. I indicated that this was intended to help give effect to Scottish Parliament measures where perhaps only one small part of a Bill was in contention, rather than hold them up and frustrate them. If that were to happen and a whole Bill was referred because there was one clause in it over which there was some doubt and some cause for a Supreme Court determination, I rather think the Scottish Parliament might have a view to express at the point. The Bill being held up might contain other measures that it was agreed on all sides were very valuable; indeed, the measure under reference might be one where there was agreement about the policy intent but some doubt about whether it was within competency.
The six amendments that the Government have put forward are intended to achieve a number of important changes as well as technical improvements. As I have set out, and my noble friend has made this point, we think that the law officer who is making the limited reference should be responsible for publishing notice of it, rather than the Presiding Officer.
Amendment 12 implements recommendations made by the Subordinate Legislation Committee of the Scottish Parliament. We are taking on board what it said in its report on the delegated powers in the Bill in its 10th report of 2011, Session 3, where it stated that it,
“could envisage situations where the delay in commencement of the specified provisions would possibly require further provision to be made to enable the Act to function as the Parliament intended”.
The new power in subsection (9) is added in response to those comments to give the Scottish Ministers the power to make appropriate consequential provision in that scenario.
Amendment 12 deals with a point that the noble and learned Lord picked up: it modifies Section 28 of the Interpretation and Legislative Reform (Scotland) Act 2010 in its application to commencement orders made by the Scottish Ministers under new Section 33A(6). The effect is that those orders, which are to be subject to negative procedure in the Scottish Parliament, must be laid for a minimum period of 40 days rather than the standard 28-day period before they can come into force.
It may be helpful if I also write to noble Lords about this; I spent many sessions trying to get my head around a lot of its implications. The measure is designed to eliminate the risk that the Scottish Parliament passes a negative resolution after provisions in a commencement order made under Section 33A(6) have come into force. In this scenario the resolution would have no effect, as the provisions commenced would by that time already have the force of law. By increasing the laying period to 40 days, if the Parliament passes a negative resolution within that period then, in terms of Section 28 of the 2010 Act as modified, the instrument is not to come into force after that resolution.
Amendment 12 also allows the Supreme Court to provide that an order under new Section 33A(6) may be laid before the Scottish Parliament less than 40 days before it comes into force, in acknowledgement that there may be circumstances where it is desirable to bring provisions of an ASP that were subject to a limited reference into force more urgently.
Amendment 13 amends Section 113 of the 1998 Act so that the useful supplementary order-making powers contained at subsections (2) to (6) and (11) of that section also apply to the powers of Scottish Ministers to make orders under Section 33A(6), (9) and (10). For example, that would allow a consequential order under new section 33A(10) also to make supplementary or incidental provision under the power at Section 113(4)(a).
Lord Boyd of Duncansby
I thank the noble and learned Lord for his explanation and his offer of a letter, which will help. We have had a long debate on this but some important issues and points of principle have been raised.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
I do not know whether I am interrupting at the wrong point but, after listening to the past hour of debate, I want to add that even those of us who are enthusiastic about devolution have to admit that it has created a field day for lawyers. We have lawyers galore all over the place. I was most grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Boyd, for describing very accurately at the beginning of his speech the triple-lock mechanisms that exist, first, with the Executive’s legal advice, then with the Presiding Officer’s legal advice, and finally with the Advocate-General’s legal advice, to ensure that we do not get into difficulties with one Parliament attempting to legislate where it has no authority to do so.
I seem to recall that in the very early days of the new Parliament—my noble and learned friend and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Boyd, will correct me if I have this wrong—when my noble and learned friend was Minister of Justice and the noble and learned Lord was the Solicitor-General, we had real difficulty in my department because the law department was not fully staffed. Both noble and learned Lords will remember that we had a backlog of legislation from the days when my noble friend Lord Forsyth rightly said that he was effectively in opposition rather than in government, and we had all the reports of the Scottish Law Commission waiting to be put into effect. We had a flood of very early legislation, none of which was particularly controversial but all of which had to be gone through. I remember that the staff in my office were almost in a state of breakdown because they did not have the capacity to give the necessary legal advice, although it was eventually given.
My noble friend Lord Stephen asked whether the legal advice would be made public. The answer is no, not normally anyway. After all, legal advice is advice; the decision rests with Ministers and with the Presiding Officer. What would happen if there were an FOI request, I have no idea. It never happened in my time so I do not know the answer to that. However, it is important that everybody knows that these locks exist even though, as I say, they provide endless employment for lawyers on a grand scale.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Boyd, mentioned emergency legislation. I hope noble Lords will forgive me if I mention a final anecdote, but I recall the occasion when we had to rush through a piece of emergency legislation following a decision of the court over the release of somebody from Carstairs Hospital. That occurred one summer. I remember it clearly. Her Majesty was at Balmoral. I was told that the Advocate-General could not possibly take the 28 days that he was normally allowed and that the measure would be rushed through. I was asked where I was going to be located in order to receive the Advocate-General’s advice, sign it off and send a letter to Her Majesty asking her to give Royal Assent. I was at home. I think that it must have been a Saturday as I was having lunch, untypically, with two hereditary Conservative Members of this House. That was not my normal custom but just happened to be the case on that occasion. A courier arrived on a motor bike from Edinburgh. He saw me through the kitchen window and so knocked on that window rather than going to the door. I opened the window, received the document, undid all the pink ribbon and the vellum, looked at the Advocate-General’s response and signed the letter to Her Majesty asking her whether she would be kind enough to give Royal Assent to this very important emergency legislation. I gave the letter back to the man on the motor bike and asked him, “Are you taking this to Balmoral now?”. He replied, “Yes”. I said, “Let me give you a piece of advice. When you get there, don’t knock on her kitchen window”.
Lord Selkirk of Douglas
I thank my noble and learned friend very much indeed for accepting the principle of the amendment. I hope I may say, by way of a one-sentence reply to the noble Lord, Lord Steel, that he reminds me of the famous parliamentary statement that lawyers should be elected only with so much circumspection, and therefore it will not happen very often.
“(d) provide that an order under subsection (6) may be laid before the Scottish Parliament less than 40 days before it comes into force, despite anything in section 28 of the Interpretation and Legislative Reform (Scotland) Act 2010 (asp 10), as modified by subsection (11).(9) The Scottish Ministers may by order make such provision as they consider necessary or expedient (including provision amending the Act) in consequence of any delay by virtue of subsection (2) in the coming into force of any provision of the Act.
(10) If the Court decides that any provision of the Act is outside the legislative competence of the Parliament, the Scottish Ministers may by order make such provision as they consider necessary in consequence of that decision in order to give full effect to any provisions of the Act which are within that competence.
(11) In its application to an order under subsection (6), section 28 of the Interpretation and Legislative Reform (Scotland) Act 2010 (the negative procedure) has effect with the following modifications—
(a) in subsections (2) and (8), for “28 days” substitute “40 days”;(b) in subsection (4), omit “so far as the instrument is not in force on the date of the resolution” and paragraph (b);(c) omit subsection (7)(a).””
“( ) In section 113 (subordinate legislation: scope of powers), after subsection (1A) (inserted by section 3) insert—
“(1B) Subsections (2) to (6) and (11) apply also to the power of the Scottish Ministers to make an order under section 33A(6), (9) or (10).””
“( ) In paragraph 3 of that Schedule (special cases)—
(a) in sub-paragraph (1)(a), after “type F, G, H, I” insert “, J”;(b) after sub-paragraph (2)(d) insert—“(da) instead of the type J procedure, the type L procedure shall apply,”.”
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
“Review of electoral system for the Scottish Parliament
(1) The Secretary of State must make arrangements—
(a) for a committee to carry out a review of the electoral system used for elections to the Scottish Parliament and to make recommendations about that, and(b) for the publication of the committee’s findings and recommendations.(2) Arrangements for the establishment of the committee under subsection (1) are to be made no later than 1 May 2012, and the committee is to report no later than 31 December 2012.”
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, I must say that I found the previous debate fascinating. I do not think that I understood more than half a dozen words of it but I am sure that every lawyer present—and there are quite a few of those—understood it all. It was enlivened only at the end by the anecdote of the noble Lord, Lord Steel.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
I am very happy to do as the noble Duke, the Duke of Montrose, instructs me. After all, one of his ancestors was beaten by Cromwell. Is that right?
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My history is wrong; I shall have to check with the noble Duke afterwards.
The amendment would set up a general review of the electoral system for the Scottish Parliament, and it is about time that we had such a review. As was said in one of our earlier debates, the additional member system was very new to Scotland—and to the United Kingdom. It is similar to the German system but was very new to us. It was devised through multiparty discussions—not all parties were involved—as to what might be a suitable proportional system to ensure that no party would have an overall majority, an issue to which we will come back; and to ensure that all parties were properly represented in the Scottish Parliament.
However, because the system was new, my recollection is that it was recommended that there should be a review after two Sessions of the Scottish Parliament. We are now into the fifth Session and there has been no review. It is about time that we had one and, as I understand it, it is our responsibility to suggest, if not actually to set up, a review. It was recommended by the Arbuthnott committee, and I shall come back to that in a moment. If I may mention him, even one of the architects of the additional member system or at least one of the people involved in the discussions that led up to it, the noble Lord, Lord Steel—I blame other people for the system—has been reported as saying he believes that it is no longer fit for purpose. I have spoken to a number of people who have come to the same conclusion.
Let me deal with one or two of the problems. First, we have two types of MSPs—list Members and constituency Members. When the system was set up, the division between them was much greater than now. There has been some attempt to bring them together and to reduce the differences. Nevertheless, it is clear that constituency Members have the primary constituency responsibility. Regional Members, who have responsibility for a whole region, in the past few Parliaments have been increasingly requested and required to take on responsibility for individual cases referred to them. What is of course happening is that members of the public go first to their constituency Member who takes the matter up with officials and resolves the problems, if possible. However, some problems do not have a resolution. Those of us who have been Members of Parliament will know that problems can be intractable. However, the individual constituent does not necessarily think that and then says he will go over the head of the constituency Member to the regional Member. Later on, if the regional Member cannot deal with the problem, it comes to the MP. No doubt, if a senate were to replace this place, and if the MP could not deal with the problem, the constituent would go to the senator. That is a debate for another day.
There is a division between the types of MSPs. They have different workloads; there is overlap, competition and confusion between them. We heard earlier that some regional MSPs target constituencies. They set up offices and work in constituencies with a view to fighting the sitting MSP at the next election. The system seems almost designed for them to do that. Having two types of Members creates a problem.
Secondly, there is confusion in voting. Members will understand that and will have seen it happening. When you explain to members of the public that they have two votes, they find it difficult to understand the purpose of those two votes. It is difficult to explain their purpose. We in the Labour Party—those in other parties do exactly the same—say, “First vote for the constituency member and then vote for the party”, but it is inevitable that someone will say, “Okay, I’ll give my first vote to this Labour constituency member, but I like the Greens”, or the Liberal Democrats, “as well, so I will give them my second preference”. Sometimes there is confusion that it is a preference vote, which of course it is not; it is a different voting system.
Arbuthnott stated in his report:
“The Commission found that there were problems with the public understanding of the electoral system”.
The report states that especially confusing was the regional vote, which the public believed was a second preference vote. Survey data indicated that a significant proportion of people did not understand how seats would be distributed within the Scottish Parliament.
I now want to tell you briefly about my experience. I was asked by the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, when he was First Minister, whether I would help to lead the Labour campaign in the Lothian region. I agreed to do that. He said: “George, let's put you on the list”. I put my name into the hat and we had a ballot among Labour members in Lothian and, lo and behold, I came top of the list, so I was number one, on the understanding that never before had any Labour member been elected for Lothian. I told my wife that there was no way I would be elected. I told the Chief Whip here, because I was a Member of this House, “Don't worry, I will be here every day because there is no way I will be elected”.
I campaigned for the constituency members of the marginal seats to ensure that I was not elected. Imagine that. You are a candidate and you campaign for the constituencies just to ensure that you do not get elected. I did all my campaign work in two marginal seats: Central Edinburgh and Linlithgow, which we held. Unfortunately, we lost two seats that we thought were safe. I thought, “That doesn’t matter, the Greens always get two in Edinburgh, there is still no way that I will be elected”. However, the Greens did not do so well in that election. I was at the count walking up and down. The husband of Sheila Gilmore, who is now Member of Parliament for East Edinburgh, Brian Gilmore, who is head of the statistics department at Edinburgh University, came up to me and said, “George you’re going to get elected”. I said, “No, no, I’ve told my wife. I’ve told the Chief Whip”. Brian is the best statistician I know. I phoned Liz and said “There is a chance that I may be elected”. She said, “What?” I said, “I’ll phone you back later”. An hour later, she had had the chance to adjust to all that, and I left Steve Bassam until the following week. I was elected because of the system. I had not campaigned for myself. I had spent not one penny on the election. I produced no election leaflets whatever. I held no meetings at all for that election. It was astonishing, but there I was, a Member of the Scottish Parliament.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
That was your mistake: if you had done, you might not have got elected.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
I treat the noble Lord, Lord Steel, as a friend of mine; in fact, he was at the party as well. He will not be coming to my 80th, that is for sure—no, that is a very good point.
It illustrates the absurdity of it all. When I was a Member of Parliament for Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley, which we considered a relatively safe seat, I had meetings all over the place. I produced literature and spent almost the limit to make sure that I got elected. In 1997, I ended up with the largest majority in Scotland as a result. We worked hard to get elected. It seems absurd, having worked hard year in, year out to get elected as a Member of Parliament in that constituency from 1979 to 2005, I just floated in easily to the Scottish Parliament. It is a strange system.
Lord Stephen
Not having been invited to the birthday party, can I, perhaps unfairly, point out that the voting system was to be proportional, which was agreed through the constitutional convention? The Liberal Democrats, as always, proposed a fair and appropriate system—the single transferrable vote in multimember constituencies. My clear recollection is that the Labour Party, in conceding a proportional system of election, was prepared to agree to anything except the system that was being proposed by the Liberal Democrats. Therefore, it was the Labour Party that devised the system that we now have in the Scottish Parliament. I would welcome it if the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, and other members of the Labour Party were now suggesting a fairer system of proportional representation. Perhaps the noble Lord will give his backing to the single transferrable vote.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
I was commending the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, and David Cameron earlier for not being party political in terms of support for the union and for not looking for party advantage. As the noble Lord, Lord Stephen, will find out, I am doing the same in relation to this. I will come to that in a moment.
We were told by the architects—it is coming back to me now. It was not the noble Lord, Lord Steel, who was guilty, but probably Henry McLeish who was the architect; he is the guilty person. If he is not, he is getting blamed for it now, but I am sure that he is.
Lord Maxton
Some of us on the convention argued for first past the post under any circumstances. The then leader, Donald Dewar, agreed as a compromise to try to accommodate the Liberal Democrats, and one or two others, that there would be a proportional system. Some of us would still have much preferred a first past the post system.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
That anticipates another point. Whoever was the architect—I think that it was Henry McLeish and others of his ilk who said, “This system will never produce an overall majority for any party. Be reassured. Don’t you worry”. Look what we have—less than 45 per cent of the people who voted in that election voted for the SNP, yet it has a relatively substantial majority in the Scottish Parliament. It does not work. When I asked one of the other people, who I will not name, and who I have just remembered was also one of the architects, why this came about, he said, “Because the system is weighted in favour of the rural areas”. That was deliberate—not to ensure that nobody got an overall majority but that Labour did not get an overall majority. It was not done for party political advantage.
Like my noble friend Lord Maxton, I argued for first past the post. I am still arguing for it and will fight to keep it for the House of Commons. I know that some Members opposite will join in that fight. Let us keep it there; I wanted to have it for the Scottish Parliament, but we did not get that. I would like to have a review to go to first past the post but, to use a phrase that was used earlier in another context, the genie is out of the bottle, and I do not think that we can go back. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Stephen, that if we are to have a proportional system and we have single transferable voting for local government, there is a logical case to have the same voting system for the Scottish Parliament and local government. It would simplify things. I am not advocating this but simply saying that there is a logical argument in favour of it that could be put to the commission that will be set up.
I would also argue that one dreadful thing that has happened is the way in which we now have completely different boundaries for Westminster, Holyrood and local government. It is confusing everyone. In Wales they hope that with the revision of Westminster boundaries they will get them to coincide again. I hope that something will be done in Scotland to get the boundaries to coincide again. Let us say that the commission was convinced by the arguments for the single transferable vote. We would then have a simplified electoral system, with two elected levels having the same system. If we could get the boundaries more contiguous, we would make things simpler for the electorate and do a great service.
I look to the Minister when I say that I hope that some consideration will be given to this. A lot of time has passed since the Scottish Parliament was set up. Many people have suggested a review. I had been led to believe in the corridors and the Lobbies that the Government were looking at this and moving in this direction. I hope that they will move relatively quickly, and I hope that the Minister will be as sympathetic as he was in his answers to my previous amendments. I beg to move.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
My Lords, unlike the noble Lord, Lord Browne, I will show some gratitude to the noble Lord for his very good party on Saturday night by supporting the amendment that he moved. My serious point is that he was right to say that we were promised, at the time that the Scotland Act passed into law, that there would be a review of the election system after a couple of Parliaments. This has not happened and I hope very much that, whether or not we agree the amendment, there will be such a review.
I would support a review for four brief reasons. First, there is the question that we discussed, and that I will not repeat, about the clashes between regional Members and constituency Members. Despite what my noble and learned friend said earlier in debate, I know for sure that it has been a problem in some areas. The second reason is the one the noble Lord referred to just now. Since the Scotland Act came into being, we have changed the electoral system for local government. People are now familiar with STV, which they were not at that time when my noble friend and others were pressing for it to be adopted in the Scottish Constitutional Convention.
I come to my third reason. I used to be a very strong supporter of first past the post. Partly because I was the only Member of the House of Commons who represented three counties, I felt very strongly about the relationship between a Member and his constituency. However, the way the Boundary Commission has operated in Scotland—not just in creating differences between Scotland and Westminster but within Scotland itself—is extraordinary. Constituencies no longer represent communities but arithmetic. For example, a chunk of Midlothian was thrown into the Borders at the last election, despite the fact that a public inquiry had stated that it should not happen. The old first past the post basis under which one represented a community has gone, because of the obsession with representational arithmetic rather than communities.
The fourth and final reason why I support an inquiry is that we now have in Scotland no fewer than four election systems that we invite the electorate to indulge in. We have first past the post for Westminster, a party list system for the European elections, STV for local elections and a regional list system for the Scottish Parliament. I cannot think of any democracy in the world where there are four different systems for different elections.
Lord Maxton
Of course, if the Government that the noble Lord supports have their way, we may well have a fifth system for elections to this place.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
The noble Lord must not tempt me to get on to that. Four is more than enough. That is in itself a very good reason why we should have a review of the whole electoral system. It should be objectively done. There is no party political gain to be had by anybody in this, but it is high time we had an independent look at how elections are run in Scotland.
Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke
My Lords, I can put on the record now that right from the start of the discussions about the Scottish Parliament, I was opposed to the voting system. It got to a stage where the minute I came into a room, eyes would glaze over. As a consequence, I lost the ability to make my arguments. To some extent, my opposition was based on recognition of the difficulty of having regional list Members and the problems that it would create for individual constituency Members where you had someone who could helicopter into your constituency and cherry pick the issues. It makes it very difficult even if it is a member of your own party who is the regional list Member. It makes it very difficult to run a consistent service as an elected representative. Time after time I was told that I was old-fashioned and that I was being tribal. My heart told me that I wanted first past the post, because that was the way that my party would win; but my head told me that for a new system of government, for devolution, we had to find some other way of doing things—but I was extremely unhappy with AMS. As the Minister knows, that is parallel to the system which operates in New Zealand, where there has just been a referendum and, ironically, they have voted to keep it.
Having said that, I agree with my noble friend about the hotchpotch of systems and the problems caused by non-contiguous constituency boundaries. In a couple of instances, I may have been responsible for that because of decisions that I took as Secretary of State. You do not always get the opportunity to take the decisions that you would want to take. However, I am opposed to the proposal that my noble friend has put forward—not because I am opposed to the idea of a review, but because I think that when you have been comprehensively beaten in an election, you do not turn around and say, “We’ve got to change this”. I accept that the Government of whom I was a member could have done something about a review, and the coalition could have done something about a review before the Scottish Parliament elections. Frankly, however, I think that we have missed the boat. It would be interpreted as the unionist parties saying, “We was robbed”. We have just been saying that we must be absolutely certain that the referendum is fair and transparent and that the decision will be accepted by the majority, which is very important. I think that we have missed the boat.
Lord Stephen
Would the noble Baroness be prepared to take a different view if the Scottish Government were in favour of a review of the voting system? My understanding is that the SNP Government would prefer a different form of voting system, perhaps even one in line with the system that the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, might be persuaded to back, and similar to the proposals set out by my noble friend Lord Steel. If that were the case, would it not fundamentally change the argument that she has just made?
Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke
I thank the noble Lord for that intervention. It would change my position. I would snatch off their hand if they proposed a review of the voting system. I would be surprised if they wanted to do it now when the voting system has so decisively played in their favour and they have developed a sophisticated strategy of ensuring that regional list Members forensically target seats where there is a prospect of winning. My former seat of Airdrie and Shotts, which used to be one of the safest in Scotland, now has a SNP Member of Parliament because of that very forensic, very clever targeting of constituencies and issues.
It is with considerable regret that I say to my noble friend that I do not think that this is the time for this House or this Parliament to call for a review, because it would be misinterpreted. However, it is not often that I get a chance to say I told you so. There are one or two people, who will not be listening now, to whom I said that. It is a case of I told you so.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, I hope I can persuade the noble Baroness to be a bit braver. We should not be too concerned about how people present it. The noble Lord’s amendment is not actually imposing anything, it is just saying that a committee should be set up to look at these issues.
I am told that I am supposed to be terribly grateful, as a Conservative, for the system of election that was put in place for the Scottish Parliament, and that I am the fellow who lost every seat when we had 8.5 per cent of the vote. I noted at the last Scottish elections that the Liberals’ share of the vote was down to 5 per cent; I think on the list system it was about 7.8 per cent. We never reached that particular nadir. The relationship with the number of seats that people win in Scotland because there is a four-party system is odd, to say the least. The nationalists have now got 45 per cent of the vote because of the way the system operates, like an avalanche, once a particular shift occurs.
There are a number of faults with the system. I will not repeat the arguments. Of course, one is this problem of having people in your patch trying to do you down, using constituency issues for that purpose. When I was the Member of Parliament for Stirling, one-third of my constituency had never had anything other than a Tory for as long as people could remember; one-third had never had anything other than Labour; the other third could go either way. This is going back to ancient times, but in 1983, even though I was a Thatcherite Tory and many of my constituents were not particularly committed to that view, you were respected as the Member of Parliament, and you made sure that you treated everyone equally, regardless of how they voted, and did your best. You were first and foremost the representative of your constituency.
I have watched what is happening in my constituency now, where you get different parties playing politics and constituents going to one after the other, and people trying to get stories in newspapers and using public funds to promote themselves, and undermining that relationship between the Member of Parliament and his constituents, which is an absolutely vital part of our system and which has been further undermined by the scandals over expenses and other matters. The whole system of being a Member of Parliament works—not because you have any real power but because when you send a letter on the headed notepaper, whether it is the Scottish Parliament or the Westminster Parliament, people sit up and take notice. I regret to say that is happening less effectively because of the damage that is being done and the fact that you have people playing politics.
Goodness knows—I will be tempted—if we are going to have elected Members of this House on a 15-year term, and the average lifespan of a Member of Parliament at the other end of this building is about eight years, that means we will have elected Lords who will last twice as long as Members of Parliament, and who will then be in a bigger patch, using their position to kill off all their opponents. I cannot think of anything worse. So there is an issue here that the noble Lord is right to identify.
There is something else I would like to say, which is probably going to get me into trouble with my party and upset a number of my colleagues. In this system, the way the list operates means that all you have to do to get into the Scottish Parliament is to make sure that you are in the right position on your list, as the noble Lord has pointed out. In my party, that means that all you have to do is get the membership to vote for you. If you are the incumbent and have been around for a long time, it is easier to achieve that because they know the name. Built into the system is something that gives the incumbent an advantage. That can be a good or a bad thing but the worst feature of this is that because you rely on the membership voting to give you your place on the list, you have a vested interest in having a declining membership. All political parties have suffered a lower membership. When I was Member of Parliament for Stirling, I used to recruit members. We had 2,500 members. Now we have 300. I thought, “What is going on in Stirling?”. Then I discovered that in the whole of Scotland we had 10,000 members. Yet we have got about 18 MSPs. We have a system that creates a self-perpetuating hierarchy who have an interest in having less and less contact with their constituents. If ever a system needs to be looked at and reformed, this is it.
Lord Empey
Perhaps I may say to the noble Lord that there is no perfect system. We use STV for local government, the Assembly and for Europe. While the same applies in terms of the selection of any candidate for any form of election having a small party that he or she can rely upon, the other ingredient that you have with STV is alphabetic. We have examples of people changing their names and using a hyphenated name—Aardvark-Bloggs or something like that—because they prefer to be at the higher end of the alphabet, and under STV they come first.
In my party, I have examples of councillors who have changed their names to double-barrelled names beginning with A. There is no absolute perfection in all this. People abuse any system and if the noble Lord wants to become Senator Aardvark-Forsyth, we look forward to that as well.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
I will take that as a speech in favour of first past the post. I should declare an interest because the first election I won was for a Labour ward on Westminster City Council. Of the three candidates, I was the only Conservative who was elected and I am sure that it was because my name began with F. That is certainly a good point to make.
Lord Maxton
Of course, we know the system that was described in Scotland. In 2007, the name on the list was Alex Salmond for First Minister. Therefore, it was not the party but his name, which begins with an A. Let us remember that he won by 47 votes in one seat in Scotland, which gave him the largest single party in Scotland. Perhaps we already know the system.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
I wish that I had been sharp enough to have worked that out in response to the noble Lord, Lord Empey. All parties look at this issue from the point of view of party advantage. If you are going to set up a commission to look at this, it has to be clear of the political parties but, ultimately, it has to be agreed among the political parties.
One of the most remarkable things that I have seen in politics was the Labour Party in control of the Scottish Parliament introducing the single transferable vote for local government. It destroyed the Labour Party’s hegemony in Scotland. It was an act of supreme self-sacrifice, which was clearly thought through in the interests of wider democracy—I am sorry but my tongue was stuck to my cheek. We have ended up with four systems, as the noble Lord said. I defy most candidates of all parties, if they knock on a door and ask, “Could you explain to me each of the electoral systems and how they work?”, to get an answer that has any degree of confidence or accuracy. The whole thing has become ridiculously overcomplicated.
The point about constituency boundaries goes to the heart of this idea of representation. The noble Lord, Lord Steel, says that we have lost all that. No, we have not. It is true that the reform of the House of Commons and the parliamentary constituencies Bill took not enough account of this very important reason. But it strikes me that we have 129 Members of the Scottish Parliament, which seems somewhat excessive. Looking at the numbers it would be possible to bring more logic, more coherence and more relevance to the people of Scotland. Moreover, if one is going to look at the electoral system, one ought also to look at the size of the Parliament and its relationship to Westminster and other bodies.
This is an excellent amendment which I do not suppose the noble Lord will press to a vote but I hope that, in responding, my noble and learned friend will consider how this can be dealt with, because there is no doubt that it is damaging to have all these systems operating in Scotland in a way that is not in the interests of the important relationship between elected representatives and their constituents.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
My Lords, I have just a few remarks to make on my noble friend’s amendment. I remember the then leader of the Labour Party, Tony Blair, saying to the Parliamentary Labour Party just after the Scottish elections that he did not realise that he had been so generous to the Conservatives in Scotland. He had revived them as a result of that issue.
Two issues are raised in this amendment. One is the alienation of the political class from the community, and the other is the community dimension. When I was elected in 1987, we had a percentage turnout in my constituency around the mid-70s. By the end it was down to 61 per cent, while the turnout for the Scottish Parliament was about 50 per cent. That is a big issue for us as politicians. We are alienating ourselves from the people, and the result is that that feeds disillusionment. Things were bad enough with the expenses scandal, but if we go on like this we will feed that disillusionment.
I remember talking many years ago in the European Parliament to an Irish politician, a newly elected MEP, so I said rather naively, “You must be quite tired and looking for a bit of a break”. “No”, he replied, “I was next on the list and I have just come in”. It struck me at the time that the link between the representative and the people of the community was broken, and that is a bad thing for politics and a bad thing for communities. We have to look at the alienation that exists at the moment, along with a loss of trust in the system and politicians.
The community dimension is very important because people are proud of the Member of Parliament who represents them and their interests. As others have said, Members are also proud in taking the interests of their communities to Parliament. The latest Bill which the Government have brought forward is indeed representation by numbers. In the long run we will suffer as a result of that situation.
I understand that there is no perfect system, but we walk into things with our eyes open. For example, the latest Bill the Government have put before us for House of Lords reform presents the possibility of Members being here for 15 years. It is obvious that they will feel that they are superior to the Members of the House of Commons as a result of that. Let us take the Finance Bill. The House of Lords cannot touch it, but that must be the first casualty because we will have elected Members here who have to go back to their constituencies. All politics is about priorities—it is about what is spent on health, education and transport. Can anyone say in all honesty that the people who are representatives here will not look at a Finance Bill as a result? If we pass the Bill, that will hit us like a train. We have an opportunity to be sensible about these issues and tie everything up. While I go along with my noble friend, I do not think that this is the time to put this forward. There are big issues on the agenda and I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Foulkes for raising them in his amendment.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, I know my limitations and that I will be unable to match the gratitude of the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood, to my noble friend Lord Foulkes, but I will do my best. That is all I have to offer him. I thank him for bringing forward this amendment. I believe that he has made the case for a review of the electoral system used for elections to the Scottish Parliament. He made it by reminding us of the promise that the system would be kept under review; of the acceptance of the recommendations made in the Arbuthnott commission report in 2006; and, if I remember correctly, of the acceptance then that it would be appropriate to have a review of the electoral system for the Scottish Parliament following the May 2011 elections—which recommendation I recollect was accepted by Douglas Alexander, the then Secretary of State for Scotland. That acceptance may not have transferred to the new coalition Government and the present Secretary of State, but I suspect that if he reread Arbuthnott, he would come to the same conclusion in relation to that review as did Douglas Alexander.
For that reason, I accept that there is a case for a review. I was interested in the intervention made on my noble friend Lady Liddell by the noble Lord, Lord Stephen, who indicated that he had some reason to believe that the current leadership of the SNP in Scotland had welcomed the review and might be inclining towards the views of my noble friend Lord Foulkes about what system should replace the present one.
My noble friend expressed some surprise at that, but I am not surprised, because the SNP now has the constituencies. There is a tendency for a party’s view of the electoral system to reflect either its wish to hold on to the status quo or its desire to disturb it. That is exactly why my noble friend is right to suggest that the review needs to be carried out independently of politicians, and the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, is right to support him.
Perhaps part of the problem with the present system was that it was a compromise agreement between political parties which had an objective to disturb the status quo. My own experience is that some of the concerns about the electoral system that is used for the Scottish Parliament are exaggerated, but I do not have comprehensive experience all over Scotland of how the system works. I know that people whose views I respect have concerns about it and they have been articulated here in our debate.
I suspect that the noble Lord, Lord Steel, is partly responsible for forcing upon the Electoral Commission a numerical priority. We have had two experiences of this in Scotland. One was in a review of boundaries for the Scottish Parliament elections, when my recollection was that the instruction that went out to the Scottish Boundary Commission was in its interpretation so restrictive that it took the basic building block and just applied it numerically from one starting point across Scotland. With one or two exceptions, none of its recommendations survived the appeal process or presentation to the sheriff principal because they were ridiculous in relation to communities. I remember the debates about the constituency boundaries and voting systems Bill, when my noble friends were queuing up to say that that is exactly what would happen if we forced that structure, or any part of it, on the Boundary Commission again through that legislation. So, in a sense, this legislative body has exacerbated the problem through that legislation.
I accused the noble Lord—I hope not too seriously—of being part-author of that problem. However, he may not have voted against the attempts that were made to ameliorate the effect or to stop it, but I have a recollection, certainly, of people from his Benches voting against the amendments that were tabled through the best endeavours of people on this side of the House who knew exactly how it would work and tried to prevent it happening. If it does happen, some people will have been the authors of their own misfortune by creating a separation between communities and constituencies.
We have yet to see how the review of constituency boundaries will work out but I predict confidently that when people realise how they will take effect in their communities, Members of Parliament of all parties will be screaming from the rooftops. Not only that, communities from all over the country will come to Members of Parliament and politicians and say, “What are you doing here? What have you done?”—and it will be interesting to see how many people stick by the arguments that they made during the passage of the Bill as a justification for doing this. However, that is perhaps another matter. I did not introduce the issue into the debate but I have taken advantage of the opportunity to make my point.
Having supported the general tenor of the debate—that the time has come for a review—I say to my noble friend that I do not think this is the vehicle for it. Earlier in the debate I understood the Minister to indicate, possibly in anticipation of this amendment, that the Government were minded to explore whether the time had come for a review; that they were going to do so in an appropriate way by consulting across parties; and that the voting system for the Scottish Parliament could be included if there was consensus and agreement for such a review.
That is, of course, the way in which we should proceed with all constitutional change; we should consult and seek consensus so that we can go forward. No political party owns the constitution and we all have a responsibility to preserve certain parts of it to hand on to future generations. It belongs to the people, not to us, and we should ensure that we do not seek party advantage out of a review of the constitution. If there is to be constitutional change in this area, that is the appropriate way to do it—not by, with all due respect to my noble friend, a provision in this Bill.
The structure that my noble friend has suggested has many of the right ingredients for a review. The timing that he proposes, however, would, if we pass the amendment, divert us from what should be the focus of our attention for that period of time and until the referendum in Scotland—that is, making the progressive, proper, forward-looking argument for keeping Scotland in the union; we should not use any of our resources for considering the system for electing Members to the Scottish Parliament. In my view—and I am afraid to say that this is where my gratitude to my noble friend runs out—this is the wrong vehicle. I prefer the Minister’s indication that it will be done in an appropriate way by a review instituted with some degree of consensus. The discussion needs to go beyond political parties into civic Scotland. It is the wrong time, but I am grateful to my noble friend for allowing this debate.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, has generated a considerable amount of discussion on the merits or demerits, as perceived by noble Lords, of the present electoral system for the Scottish Parliament. I declare a non-interest: I was not at the noble Lord’s party, but I can assure him that that has no bearing whatever on the response I will give to his amendment.
He wishes to set up a committee to review the electoral system used to elect Members of the Scottish Parliament. It is tempting to go through the history of how we arrived at the electoral system we have. I shall resist that temptation, other than to say, as was indicated, that it was a compromise. It was obvious at the time and is the case. My noble friend Lord Steel said that there was a commitment to review the system after two elections. I do not remember such a commitment but, nevertheless, the Arbuthnott commission was established jointly, if my memory serves me correctly, by both the Scottish Government and the United Kingdom Government to look at the electoral system. It reported, recommending some revisions to the electoral system. I try to remind myself what they were. The Arbuthnott commission recommended that the mixed-member proportional system we have for elections to the Scottish Parliament should be revised to give voters more choice. It suggested that the closed list should be replaced by an open one, that the boundaries should be based on local authority areas and that a role should be defined for the regional MSP. Self-evidently, these recommendations were not taken forward or implemented.
The commission went on to say that,
“our revised electoral system, if implemented, should be reviewed following the experience of two elections. If further reform is judged necessary, consideration should be given at that time to introducing the single transferable vote for Scottish Parliament elections”.
As I have indicated, that revised system has not been implemented. The Calman commission perhaps read more into that and interpreted it as saying that in any event there would be a further review after two more elections—ie, after 2011. My colleagues who sat with me on the Calman commission will no doubt recall that we did not make any recommendations on the voting system as such because of the very recent Arbuthnott review, but also because there might have been a future review.
As I indicated in an earlier debate, specifically on another aspect of the electoral system and the regional list Member also standing in the constituency, the Government have stated their intention to consider what has been said by a review of the electoral system by both the Calman and Arbuthnott commissions. Indeed, in the Command Paper published alongside the Scotland Bill on St Andrew’s Day 2010, Ministers said that they recognised that the Calman commission,
“considered whether the electoral system for the Scottish Parliament should be reformed or devolved to the Scottish Parliament. Previously, the Arbuthnott Commission had reported in 2006 stating that there should be a review of the electoral system after the 2011 elections to the Scottish Parliament—the Government will consider this recommendation, taking into account the views of the new Scottish Parliament, following the May 2011 elections”.
Clearly, as indicated by the debate we have had this afternoon, there is support in a number of quarters for some form of review of the electoral system. However, the Government believe that they could take forward that review only with the full support of all parties in the Scottish Parliament, along with the benefit of the detailed consideration that this Government are committed to. I take the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, that there is perhaps some nervousness about seeking to change the rules after they delivered a result that many of us did not like. That is a fair point. The noble Lord, Lord Browne, also made the important point that there are perhaps more important constitutional issues that we should focus on at this time, not least the fundamental question of Scotland’s place in our United Kingdom. Perhaps now is not the appropriate time to start a review of the electoral system. I have indicated that if there is that consensus to take it forward at some future time, we would be willing to consider it, but this is not the appropriate time to do so.
I think that we all share two views that were expressed earlier. First, I endorse what my noble friend Lord Forsyth said on the standing and importance of a Member of Parliament in his or her community. He said that those of us who have had the privilege to serve as Members of Parliament take very seriously that we represent the entire community and not just those who voted for us. That sense of representation and the privilege that follows those of us who have done that is important. That links into what the noble Lord, Lord McFall, said on the duty of all us to consider how as politicians—elected or not—and as a political system we can re-engage with the people who our laws affect. That will not be done just through a change to an electoral system. There are a whole host of things but it is something we would do well to remember.
For clarification, on the specific point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, on Amendment 1, I repeat that we will see what consensus there is about looking at that. In the spirit of what I have said, I hope the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, we have had a very lively and well informed debate, considering that we started over seven hours ago with the procedural amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth. It has been a very useful debate.
My noble friend Lady Liddell—I call her Secretary of State emeritus for good reasons—alerted me to the fact that she was going to disagree with me. I did not realise that it would be such a gentle disagreement, because it was a very sensible contribution. She pointed out the genuine argument against my proposal, and I had taken account of it. It is a very genuine argument about timing that we need to be concerned about. There is never a good time for this, and we wish we had done it. My noble friend said that we had missed the boat. I wish we had had a review when we should have had one, but it is too late now. I am glad that the Minister has said that the Government would look at it at an appropriate time. If the noble Lord, Lord Stephen, is correct in what he said in intervening on my noble friend, there is hope that we might get agreement across parties and between this and the Scottish Parliament. That would certainly signal the way forward.
I thank my noble friend Lord Browne for his very positive response. He was a bit hesitant about it, but it was very positive indeed. Someone said that this was not the vehicle to raise this issue, but it was the only vehicle open to me. I accept that it may not be the best way forward. Therefore, because I accept the point made by the Minister in his very helpful reply, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.