18:59 - The House divided: - Ayes: 234 / Noes: 318 - Question accordingly negatived.
Mr Murphy
I do not wish to reopen that debate, but my hon. Friend is free to make that point whenever he wishes to do so.
It is clear that to date, the Government’s policy on the covenant and their policy on the RPI-CPI switch are policies without a patron. No Government Minister has defended them, yet Ministers expect Back-Benchers to suspend their consciences and their sense of right and wrong to vote through a policy that they have not backed.
The Secretary of State for Defence (Dr Liam Fox)
If the change from RPI to CPI in relation to the armed forces is so iniquitous, will the right hon. Gentleman give an unequivocal guarantee that Labour will reverse it?
Mr Murphy
I remember being in the Government and playing that game of saying to the Opposition, “Name your next manifesto,” but it is a desperate tactic. It took me 10 years to use that tactic, but it has taken the Defence Secretary only a few months. Today, he is at the Dispatch Box but will not even stand up for his own policy. Let me give him another opportunity to do so. Does he think it fair that when the deficit is temporary, this cut should be permanent? I am giving him a chance to articulate his own policy.
Dr Fox
This merely proves the economic illiteracy of the Labour party. Even when the deficit is going down, the total debt is going up and the debt repayment is going up. It will take a very long time, even when we are into positive growth, to see the debt coming down. The Labour party knows no more about economics in opposition than it knew in government.
Mr Murphy
This comes from the right hon. Gentleman who, when in opposition, demanded more spending on absolutely everything; even in the midst of financial crisis, he was demanding more and more spending. If this move is driven by deficit reduction, the Government should come forward with a temporary measure rather than a permanent change.
Finally, the military covenant goes to the heart of the relationship between the military, society and the Government. It should never be the exclusive property of one political party, but these permanent cuts undermine the Government’s claim to be honouring the military covenant. Sir Michael Moore, chairman of the Forces Pension Society has said:
“I have never seen a government erode the morale of the Armed Forces so quickly.”
That is a worrying position—one that we all hope to see reversed.
The truth is that this Government have lost the courage of the conviction and conscience they had in their manifesto. One day in June last year summarises this Government’s approach to the covenant. On 25 June 2010, the Prime Minister stood on the decks of the Ark Royal, surrounded by members of the Royal Navy, with Harrier jets as a backdrop, and promised a new military covenant that was written into the law of the land. Parliament did not get a vote on the decision to scrap the Ark Royal and Parliament did not get the chance to express its view on the grounding of the Harrier fleet. Today, however, Parliament has the chance to make its voice heard. We should say it loud and clear, fulfil the Conservative party manifesto pledge and define the military covenant in law.
The Secretary of State for Defence (Dr Liam Fox)
Let me too begin by expressing our condolences to the family and friends of Private Lewis Hendry, 3rd Battalion the Parachute Regiment; Private Conrad Lewis, 4th Battalion the Parachute Regiment; Lance Corporal Kyle Marshall, 2nd Battalion the Parachute Regiment; Private Dean Hutchinson, 9th Regiment the Royal Logistic Corps; and Private Robert Wood, 17th Port and Maritime Regiment the Royal Logistic Corps, all of whom have died in action in Afghanistan. Every death is a personal tragedy; they are not simply numbers, and their loss is felt by families and friends. We in this House remember them all in our thoughts and prayers.
There is no doubt about the general desire in this country to improve and develop the armed forces covenant. It encompasses those of all ages and social groups, those with different politics and those with none. It does not and cannot exist in the abstract, however. It cannot be a wish list separated from the economic reality in which we find ourselves. A covenant between the armed forces and the British people cannot ignore the financial predicament in which the British people and their Government find themselves.
The starting point of this debate has to take account of the economic situation inherited by the coalition Government and the state in which the armed forces and the Ministry of Defence find themselves at the end of 13 years of Labour Government. In short, the issue for the Opposition, as set out in their motion, is one of credibility, so we should examine the credibility of Labour Members on the issues that the shadow Defence Secretary described as important.
Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab)
Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Dr Fox
In a moment.
There are three charges that still hang around the necks of Labour when it comes to defence, the armed forces and the military covenant. In 13 years of power, their response to equipping our forces was often too little, too late; their spending priorities were wrong; and there was too much waste and inadequate budgetary control.
We have learned from the Chilcot inquiry—an independent inquiry—that it was purely for political reasons that the Labour Government failed to order enough equipment, including body armour, for troops in the lead-up to the Iraq war. They did not want to send the message that they were preparing for war, and the result was under-prepared, under-equipped forces sent into conflict.
In 2006, they failed to send enough troops and equipment into Helmand province and were painfully slow at providing more capable armoured vehicles to counter improved explosive devices. That led to a number of high-profile subsequent resignations from the Army, as has been pointed out. They went 12 years without a defence review, even though, according to numerous former Defence Ministers and service chiefs speaking at the Chilcot inquiry, the 1998 SDR was never properly funded. They overstretched our armed forces by fighting two wars on a peacetime budget.
Dr Fox
I will give way in a moment.
The Labour Government overspent and overheated an equipment programme that contributed to a £38 billion black hole in the defence budget. In Labour’s final year in power, the MOD saw a record overspend of £3.3 billion in the equipment programme. In fact, we inherited an equipment programme that has its top 15 projects £8.8 billion over budget and a cumulative delay of 32 years. When we were fighting two wars, their idea of commitment to defence and our armed forces was to appoint four different Defence Secretaries in four years, including one who served simultaneously as Defence Secretary and Secretary of State for Scotland.
Labour left a situation in which 42% of service single living accommodation in the UK, and 52% of overseas single living accommodation, was in the worst grade on a four-point scale—although in a speech that lasted half an hour, the shadow Defence Secretary did not once mention the quality of accommodation for our armed forces.
With all that going on, Labour Defence Secretaries spent almost £250,000 on modern art for the Ministry of Defence. As former Chief of the General Staff General Sir Mike Jackson said in his autobiography, they
“preferred to spend on abstract art money which might otherwise have directly benefited soldiers and their families. It may seem a small point, but to me it was so indicative of the cultural divide in the MoD”.
The list goes on. In this country, we judge politicians not by their words but by their actions. The Labour Government had 13 years to put matters right; we have had nine months so far, and I will set out what we have done already.
Mr MacShane
I am glad to give the Secretary of State a moment to calm down from his election speech. On 11 January last year, he wrote to Mr Yeomans in Clevedon that the Conservative Government would review the rules on awarding medals, particularly the proposed national defence medal, which has been supported by nearly 200 right hon. and hon. Members in an early-day motion. Earlier this week, however, the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, Lord Astor of Hever, stated in the other place that the Ministry of Defence would not review the role or membership of the committee that would award the national defence medal if it is granted. That is a remarkable U-turn in one year. Will the Secretary of State address that point and discuss it with his ministerial colleague?
Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)
I would like to judge the Secretary of State by his actions rather than his words. What progress is he making towards the establishment of a Government-funded post-traumatic stress treatment programme as promised in the armed forces manifesto?
Matthew Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con)
Did the Secretary of State know about the evidence given by officials who served the Labour Government that it was the ministerial decision to delay the SDR that made the black hole that was left so big and the difficulty of getting matters in order so much greater?
Dr Fox
We could spend a great deal of time detailing the failures of the previous Government. Labour Members constantly talk about making changes as though we were in a vacuum or, as my hon. Friend the Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) said, at year zero. We are in a very difficult economic predicament largely of their making, yet they talk about not only the military covenant but almost everything else as if there were no financial cost and as if we should not take what is happening in the economy into account when it comes to pensions and programmes in the Ministry of Defence.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that in the short term, while the economic situation is so bad, top priority should be given to the education of the children of those who have fallen in action or who have been so grievously wounded that their future earning power will never be restored?
Dr Fox
As I might have expected, my hon. Friend makes a very good point. In the programme for government, we listed a number of measures that will start the process of rebuilding the covenant, and I am pleased to be able to set out to him those that we have already accomplished.
As I have said on a number of occasions in the House, no decisions taken in the strategic defence and security review will have a negative impact on our mission in Afghanistan. In fact, we have already made great strides in improving the conditions for those serving on the front line. In our nine months in office, we have doubled the operational allowance that was paid under the previous Government to over £5,000. Labour could have done so, but did not. We have changed the rules on rest and recuperation, so any lost days of leave—due to delays in the air bridge or any other operational requirements—will be added to post-tour leave. The previous Government could have done that, but they chose not to. We have also pledged to provide university and further education scholarships to the children of members of the armed forces who have been killed since 1990. The previous Government could have chosen to do so, but in 13 years they did not. The current Government have now included 36,000 service children as part of the pupil premium, recognising the uniqueness of service life and its effect on service children and service communities. Labour could have done so, but did not in 13 years.
John McDonnell
I want to concentrate on a more serious issue, which I would like the Secretary of State to—[Interruption.] May I complete what I am saying? The Secretary of State has focused on the past Government’s record, of which I have also been critical, but last week the current Government introduced an immigration fees order which I objected to, and which I see has been carried on a deferred Division today. The explanatory notes explain that it introduces for the first time the power for the Government to charge fees for the registration as British citizens of the children born to British armed forces personnel serving abroad. It cannot be right that we are penalising the children and families of service personnel serving abroad on our orders. I ask the Secretary of State to liaise with the Home Secretary to ensure that she exercises her discretion to waive these fees.
Dr Fox
Not at the moment.
I have set out a number of areas where the Government have already acted in just nine months. Some £61.6 million has been allocated in the current financial year for the upgrade of, and improvement programmes for, service accommodation. That will include upgrading some 800 service family homes to the top standard, with a further 4,000 properties benefiting from other improvements such as new kitchens and bathrooms.
Of course, in the current tight financial situation priorities must be established. My welfare priority will be mental health. We have accepted in full the mental health plan for service personnel and veterans set out in the report by my hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison). That will provide a range of improvements in mental health care, including increasing the number of mental health professionals from mental health trusts looking out for veterans and introducing structured mental health surveillance inquiries into routine service medical examinations and all discharge medicals.
The Government are committed to improving health care for our service personnel and have committed an additional £20 million in the SDSR for this purpose, part of which will be used to deliver further enhanced military mental health care services. I believe this must be our priority because it is all too easy to see the physical wounds of war, but the unseen mental wounds of war have too often gone undiagnosed and untreated, and all our society demands that we do not allow a mental health time bomb to be created.
Jim Sheridan
The right hon. Gentleman is explaining the promises or pledges in his party manifesto. Do they include his pledge to compensate Christmas Island veterans, many of whom will be watching this debate and wanting an answer?
Chris Bryant
I want to ask the Secretary of State about 160 Brigade. As he knows, it is the Welsh brigade based in Brecon. Secret discussions have been going on over the last few weeks about collapsing the brigade and joining it with the West Midlands, which would mean there was no longer a Welsh brigade. Can he give an absolute assurance that that will not happen?
Dr Fox
As the hon. Gentleman knows, there are ongoing discussions in the armed forces, but as he has heard me say on a number of occasions, I am very keen that we have United Kingdom armed forces and that we maintain the footprint as widely as possible across the UK. If he wants to talk to me directly about that, I shall be happy to meet him.
Labour’s legacy means that there is not enough to do all that we would like to do, but we can make a start. None of it alone will instantly rebuild the covenant, but it is a step in the right direction. In the difficult economic circumstances the coalition Government have inherited, where all parts of society are making sacrifices, repairing the covenant will not be straightforward. The armed forces are subject to the difficult decisions we have had to make on pay, pensions and allowances across Government.
Neither the Prime Minister nor I came into politics to see cuts in the armed forces, but we have to deal with the reality of the legacy. Every Department has to make a contribution to deficit reduction and the Ministry of Defence can be no exception. We have to put the economy on the right track for the sake of our national security.
The coalition agreement recognises that we have to do more to ensure that our armed forces and their families have the support they need, and are treated with the dignity they deserve. Some of what we need to do will cost money, and with budgets squeezed, we may not be able to go as quickly as we want, but we will make progress where we can. The recent report on the covenant commissioned by the Prime Minister from the military historian Professor Hew Strachan suggests a number of ways to move forward. We are implementing some of them now and will announce in the near future the other recommendations we support.
As Members know, the military covenant was conceived as an expression of the mutual obligations that exist between the nation, the Army and each individual soldier. In consultation with service charities and others, the Government are rewriting the covenant as a new tri-service document—the armed forces covenant—which expresses the enduring, general principles that should govern the relationship between the nation, the Government and the armed forces community as a whole. It will include all three services, veterans, family members and local communities, thereby broadening the scope of the covenant. We shall publish it in the spring.
The reserve forces form an intrinsic part of the UK’s defence capability and thus the armed forces community. The Ministry of Defence is responsible for ensuring that reservists are treated fairly and with respect, and that they are valued. In the drafting of the armed forces covenant, reserves have been considered equally alongside regulars. That will set the tone for Government policy aimed at improving the support available for serving and former members of the armed forces, and the families who carry so much of the burden, especially, as we remember today, in the event of injury or death.
Charlie Elphicke
Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is an extraordinary situation for the Opposition to call a debate on the military covenant, which by their own admission they cannot define, yet we have heard from my right hon. Friend a clear definition of the covenant, which is being written into the law of the land?
Dr Fox
It is surprising that the Opposition should be so desperate for a definition of the military covenant in law, yet fail to produce one themselves. It is just as absurd as their claim that they are trying to implement the Conservative manifesto on the subject. I happen to have the Conservative manifesto of 2010 in my hand and I see no commitment whatever to writing the military covenant into law. Indeed, we have gone further than our manifesto commitment in the coalition agreement by trying to take that forward. It is one of the elements that shows that the coalition Government were able to work together to go further than either party had done in the manifestos that we issued at the general election.
We need to ensure that progress is made, year on year. That is why we have brought forward legislation in the Armed Forces Bill requiring the Defence Secretary to present an armed forces covenant report to Parliament every year. I hope to deliver the first of those reports in the autumn.
John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)
Is the Secretary of State saying that his party never made a commitment to enshrining the principles in law? If he is not saying that, will he set out why his position has changed on this difficult subject?
Dr Fox
We are for the first time recognising the covenant in law. We are setting it out in law in the Armed Forces Bill that the Secretary of State for Defence will be required to come to the House of Commons, and when we have published the tri-forces covenant, the House of Commons will be able to decide whether the Government have lived up to their part of the bargain. I find it extraordinary that nine months into the new Government, when we are writing that into the law, we get complaints from the Opposition, who did not once try to do so in 13 years in power.
The covenant will set out how we are supporting our armed forces, their families and veterans in key areas such as health care, housing and education. It will be the first time the existence of the armed forces covenant has been recognised in statute. For that, I think all fair-minded people would believe that the coalition Government deserve some credit.
Mr Geoffrey Cox (Torridge and West Devon) (Con)
Although I applaud what the Secretary of State is saying about his support for veterans and former members of the armed forces, may I draw to his attention the case of my constituent, Ann Dexter, whose son Richard Coombes is suffering from dire mental health problems as a consequence of his injury on active service? The Ministry of Defence was ordered by a judge to pay him £130,000 compensation but still, three years later, not all of that compensation has been paid. Will my right hon. Friend look into that case urgently and get back to the family to explain why the Ministry of Defence has not paid the compensation that it was ordered to pay?
Dr Fox
I am very surprised that three years after it was ordered by a judge to be paid, that compensation has not been paid. I will certainly look into the case that my hon. and learned Friend mentions.
The Government alone cannot provide all the support required so we are determined to strengthen the links with the charitable sector, which does so much good work, often unsung. In many ways those organisations are also heroes in our countries when it comes to the armed forces. Involving the charitable sector is the only way we can make a reality of the armed forces covenant, because the duty of care is on all of us, not simply the Government.
From now on, however, the Government are obliged to report progress on the covenant to Parliament annually. That will ensure that this Government, and indeed all future Governments, are held to account by Parliament. I made it clear last month on Second Reading of the Armed Forces Bill that the external reference group, which was mentioned by the hon. Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock (Sandra Osborne), will also continue to monitor Government progress. But it is about progress on the covenant on all sides, not just the Government’s. The covenant is not just between the Government and the armed forces. It is a covenant with the whole of society. That is why I find the external reference group to be of such value. It will bring independence and clear-mindedness.
Sandra Osborne
When the Secretary of State refers to communities, does that include local communities where there are currently armed forces bases? What about the contribution that they have made over the years, and what about the economic impact on those communities of the closure of bases?
Dr Fox
As the hon. Lady knows, we are spending a great deal of time and effort getting the balance of the bases correct, primarily for our national security needs, but we will also take into account the social and other impacts that the changes will have. The hon. Gentleman from the Scottish National party who is normally in his seat usually intervenes at this point. We are aware of the changes—
Dr Fox
Wrong one.
The point is well made by the hon. Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock. We understand the problems that we face, but it was inevitable when we had to make reductions under the SDSR that there would be changes to the basing. We are sympathetic to the local needs that she mentions.
Bob Russell
The Secretary of State will join me in mentioning a body that, as far as I recall, has not yet been referred to—the reserves and Territorials, without whom our actions in Afghanistan would be all the poorer.
Jim Shannon
I speak not as an Irish or Scottish nationalist, but as a Northern Ireland Unionist. I know that the Secretary of State has already responded on the need to look after those with health and mental health conditions, but I have recently met people who had lost limbs, whether legs or arms, so will he indicate what help will be available for those people, because they have had the trauma of the physical disablement and of the resulting mental disablement? I am keen to hear what he will do to help those people.
Dr Fox
Those who suffer traumatic amputations, and often multiple traumatic amputations, increasingly get very high-quality care in this country, both from what the military and the NHS are doing. [Interruption.] Members on the Opposition Front Bench say that that is thanks to the previous Government, and I acknowledge their work on that front. With regard to the interface between the NHS and other services, we are again working increasingly to ensure that we get constructive action between them. Any Member who has visited the medical service or Headley Court will realise just what a high-quality service our armed forced get in this country. It is something of which the whole country, irrespective of politics, should be proud.
Looking after people who are currently serving is only part of the covenant; the duty of care does not end when active service ends. The community of veterans in Britain is estimated to be around 5 million strong. The vast majority of men and women who serve make the transition to civilian life successfully. Many of the skills they learn in the armed forces are highly sought after, as are their character traits: self-discipline, self-reliance and leadership. However, for a small number the transition is not so easy. Some find it difficult to get work or struggle to fit in. Others may suffer more serious problems, both physical and mental, as a result of their service, as the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) has pointed out. Those are the people who most need our help.
First, we need to give people the help they need when they leave. It takes time to turn a civilian into a soldier, so we should take time to turn a soldier into a civilian. Our resettlement programme helps service leavers to navigate civilian life; everything from finding a job, to benefits, education and retraining. We are making sure that it is focused on those who need it most.
For example, ex-service personnel now get more support to study at university. The Department for Education is drawing up plans to create a new programme called “Troops to Teachers” to get experienced, high-quality ex-service personnel into the teaching profession. In a country where it is often claimed that there are not enough role models, believe me there are plenty in the armed forces.
Secondly, when a veteran falls on hard times, there should be somewhere to turn. The problems can result from debt, homelessness, addiction or mental illness resulting from their service. Such difficulties can occur years after leaving the services, so we need a proper partnership between all arms of government, national and local, and with the NHS. That means ensuring that veterans get fair access to local housing schemes, providing more money and more nurses for mental health and working with the charitable sector to get the right support to the right people at the right time.
Having worked as a doctor for some years with service personnel and their families, I have seen at first hand some of the difficulties and stress surrounding service life. Many of the pressures are the same faced by ordinary families up and down the country, but others are unique. Those have to be dealt with sensitively and appropriately.
Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) (Lab)
The Secretary of State is being very gracious, and I do appreciate him letting me in.
Will the right hon. Gentleman be a little clearer with me about the definition of “military covenant”? In the Bill Committee last week, the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, the right hon. Member for South Leicestershire (Mr Robathan) said that he thought the military covenant was a “conceptual” thing, a “philosophical statement”, and that it would have
“the same legal position as the service Command Paper”.––[Official Report, Armed Forces Public Bill Committee, 10 February 2011; c. 22.]
Is that the case? Can the Secretary of State give me his definition of the military covenant, so that he might explain to his Minister what it is?
Dr Fox
I have already set out that what my right hon. Friend says is true. There is a concept of what the covenant means in terms of the relationship between the armed forces and the people of this country, and the responsibility that the people of this country have not only to those serving in the armed forces, but to their families and to veterans. As I said very clearly, however, we are setting out and will publish in the spring a tri-service covenant for the first time. It has to go beyond the traditional covenant, which related to the Army; we are discussing the issue with the charitable sector and the armed forces; and we will publish that new tri-service covenant in the spring.
I am aware of the time constraints, Mr Speaker, so let me just remind the House of the point with which I began. This year, the £43 billion that the UK will spend on debt interest payments—the debt that the previous Government left behind—amounts to more than the Ministry of Defence, Foreign and Commonwealth Office and international aid budgets combined. If we did not have it hanging around our necks, how much more could we do on service housing, health care or allowances? Instead, we will get absolutely nothing back for that money. We cannot sustain that level of deficit and debt without losing our influence in the world or being forced to limit our foreign policy and defence options. If we learned anything as a country from the cold war, it was that the stronger our economy, the better our national security and the more we can do for our service personnel.
Labour’s economic policies created a national security liability that goes behind the hard end of national security and impacts on how we treat our armed forces, their families and the veterans through the covenant. Labour wants to, but cannot, wash away its legacy by ignoring its actions while in government—a Government of whom Opposition Members were a part.
There is no point in the people who left us broke complaining that we are not doing enough. There is no point in the people who had 13 years to deliver, but failed to, telling us that we have not done enough in nine months. The shadow Defence Secretary is a very decent man, but he represents a party that failed in its duty to the armed forces. It has no creditability on the issues that should have been dealt with when the money was available in earlier years.
Because of the nation’s dreadful finances, we as a Government are being forced to take some tough decisions—including on allowances and on pensions. We do not do so because we want to; we do so because we have to. We do so because, as the outgoing Labour Chief Secretary to the Treasury actually said in his note, “Sorry, there is no money left”. Perhaps it was a joking matter for Labour, but it is deadly serious for the armed forces.
The coalition Government are taking the difficult decisions required to deal with Labour’s legacy, and we will continue to rebuild the armed forces covenant. I wish we could go faster, but we will go as fast as we can. Opposition Members got us into this mess; this Government will get us out of it.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan)
The British people and, indeed, a great many Members will have been puzzled by today’s debate, because all parts of the House agree on the substance of the issues and on looking after the armed forces, and we have heard from both sides how much people care about armed forces personnel, their families, veterans, the injured, widows and so on. So what we have heard, I fear, is a synthetic debate about semantics—dancing on the head of a pin. We on the Government Benches are absolutely concerned about results, not about party political point-scoring.
I shall turn my attention first, if I may, to the hon. Member for Bolton North East (Mr Crausby), who gave a very moving account of his father on D-day. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right: we all, of whatever age, owe a huge debt to those who fought in the second world war on D-day and on other occasions. I have to say, however, that I am sorry he thought that people who went off after D-day and voted Conservative were voting weirdly; I have always thought that it was a bit weird to vote Labour, but never mind. We agree also on defence expenditure, but if I may say so gently, we cannot spend money that we do not have, and that is why we have to cut the defence budget.
My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Milton Keynes North (Mark Lancaster) made, without doubt, the best joke of the day. He also spoke sensibly from experience, including recent operational experience, and I say to him, “Trust me. We will not forget the reserves.” The reserves review will report this year to me.
The hon. Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon) started calmly and asked to be non-political, but then I found that, rather sadly, she turned tribal and became rather party political. I do not doubt her sincerity, however, and I assure her that I and Her Majesty’s Government similarly care deeply for the armed forces.
My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Newark (Patrick Mercer) spoke from experience and, again, rather movingly, this time about the covenant manifested in Newark. I thank him for his contribution, and he is right: we must, indeed, look after our people in the armed forces.
Turning to the hon. Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock (Sandra Osborne), I am sorry to say this, but “the Ark of the covenant” was without doubt the worst joke of the day. Again, however, I do not doubt her commitment to, and support for, the armed forces. My hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Bob Russell) is a great supporter of the armed forces and, indeed, of the covenant, and he made a sensible and knowledgeable contribution.
The hon. Members for Erith and Thamesmead (Teresa Pearce) and for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith) spoke about pensions, and again I do not doubt their sincerity. We are deeply concerned about, and looking specifically at the issue of, widows and maimed personnel in terms of pensions. The hon. Lady referred to a 40-year-old squadron leader and how much his pension might be affected, but she should know that I have drawn a pension from the armed forces for more than 20 years, and although she may not think it, I have managed to earn a little on the way as a Member, so we need to be realistic about the issue: we cannot exempt everybody from the change to CPI from RPI. People who think we can are totally in denial about the state of the public finances, which the previous Government left to us. We have to clear up that mess, and we have no other duty than to do so before we deal with other matters.
Mr Robathan
I shall give way to the hon. Lady, because she sat through the debate and did not get in.
Angela Smith
The Minister is being very generous. Is it not the case, however, that the current Government knew about the deficit before the election? On that premise, why did they make the promise that they made to the electorate?
Mr Robathan
We did not appreciate quite what an awful state—[Interruption.] I could point the House to innumerable references to, “When we open the books, we will find out what things are like.” We did not appreciate the awfulness. We certainly did not know that the MOD budget for the next 10 years was overspent by £38 billion. I am not sure what promise the hon. Lady is alleging that we are breaking, because I cannot see one.
Nick Smith
The Minister hinted that he might be able to make some progress on pensions for widows and for people who have suffered injury. Can he give us some more detail on that?
Mr Robathan
I have had many discussions with representatives of the War Widows Association and the Forces Pension Society, and we are looking at particular cases and how we can perhaps take this forward. I cannot make any concrete commitment, but I can assure the hon. Gentleman that should we make any progress or change, I will let him know.
I thank my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) for his contribution. He, too, has been in receipt of a pension for a few years—a bigger one than mine, but there we go.
My hon. Friend the Member for Gosport (Caroline Dinenage), although not gallant herself, is married to a gallant officer. I am grateful for her contribution, in which she spoke from her experience of service family life. She is of course absolutely right: we have to look after the armed forces, and that is what we pledge to do.
I was rather surprised when the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies), for whom I have always had a bit of affection, started to quote from blogs. I think we all read blogs from time to time, but most of the stuff that is written there is not worth repeating.
Huw Irranca-Davies
Far from blogs, I also quoted Chris Simpkins of the Royal British Legion, who said:
“The British public has shown it sees”
the role of coroner
“as vital in ensuring bereaved Service families can have confidence in the investigations of their loved ones’ deaths. We believe it is fundamental to the inquest process and to the fulfilment of the Military Covenant”.
The Minister should not respond to the blogs but to the Royal British Legion.
Mr Robathan
I will come to that if I have time at the end.
My hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth North (Penny Mordaunt) might qualify as almost gallant in her role in the Royal Naval Reserve. I am grateful to her for what she said. She is absolutely right that this Government believe in action, not words—not spin, but results.
The hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart) made three swift points that seemed pretty reasonable. I would love to respond and wonder if she could write to me about them.
I now turn to the Front-Bench contribution by the right hon. Member for East Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy). I expect that he now regrets having called this debate, because he has not come out of it with any credit. Like the hon. Member for Ogmore, he quoted at length the Royal British Legion. I have here the Royal British Legion’s initial comments on the proposed armed forces covenant, dated 21 January—not four weeks ago—in which it says that it broadly welcomes the proposals. I am afraid that one can quote selectively at any stage, and Labour Members are doing so.
I am afraid that the hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire (Gemma Doyle) regurgitated the arguments that we have heard in the Select Committee on the Armed Forces Bill, and they had no more resonance. The Committee has made three visits—to the Nottingham reserves centre, to Colchester and to Headley Court—and I am disappointed that of the six Labour Members on the Committee, who make so much fuss about these things, three did not come on any of those visits.
Mr Alan Campbell (Tynemouth) (Lab)
claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36).
Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put.
Question agreed to.
Main Question accordingly put.