Grand Committee
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Colwyn)
My Lords, before the first order is considered, I remind noble Lords that, in the case of each order, the Motion before the Committee will be that the Committee consider the order in question. Motions to approve the orders will be moved in the Chamber in the usual way.
Health and Social Care Act 2008 (Consequential Amendments No. 3) Order 2010
(13 years, 9 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe)
My Lords, this order makes a consequential amendment to the Water Industry Act 1991. The amendment is required as a result of the implementation of a new registration system under the Health and Social Care Act 2008, which set out a system of registration for providers of health and adult social care that the Care Quality Commission operates. To manage the registration process, providers are being brought into the new system in stages. The dates for these stages are set out in the Health and Social Care Act 2008 (Regulated Activities) Regulations 2010.
As of 1 April this year, all NHS providers were subject to the new system of registration. It will cover private and voluntary healthcare providers, and adult social care providers, from 1 October 2010. The providers are registered under the Care Standards Act 2000. Therefore, on 1 October, certain provisions of the Care Standards Act will be repealed. One of these will be the definition, in Section 2 of the Act, of an “independent hospital in England”. A previous order—the Health and Social Care Act 2008 (Consequential Amendments No. 2) Order 2010—made a number of consequential amendments to primary legislation using this definition. Unfortunately, an amendment to the Water Industry Act 1991 was missed, so this order is necessary because of that omission. Anyone who buys, or has bought, the earlier order will be entitled to a copy of this order free of charge.
A further order, subject to the negative parliamentary procedure, has been laid today and will make the necessary amendments to secondary legislation. Schedule 4A to the Water Industry Act 1991 contains a list of premises that should not be disconnected for the non-payment of water charges, including,
“an independent hospital within the meaning of the Care Standards Act 2000”.
As the definition of “independent hospital” in the Care Standards Act 2000 will no longer be applicable in England, this order makes a consequential amendment to the definition in the Water Industry Act 1991. It replaces the current cross-reference to the Care Standards Act 2000 with a new definition of an “independent hospital” for England. This new definition covers the same kinds of premises that were previously covered, but does not rely on a reference to the definition in the Care Standards Act 2000. The definition for Wales remains unchanged. I commend this order to the Committee.
Baroness Thornton
I thank the Minister for explaining this small order arising out of Section 162 of the Health and Social Care Act 2008. I suppose that I should apologise to the Committee for the earlier omission, which is why we are here. Section 162 is a part that confers power on the Minister to ensure that the Act is in compliance with existing legislation, and indeed that is what the Minister explained in a more than adequate fashion.
I confess that I was not sure that I could see the necessity of this order until I realised that the healthcare facilities mentioned can have their water cut off as a result of non-payment. Can the Minister confirm whether this has happened in the interim period?
The key matter on which I should like further clarification is the definition of an “independent hospital”. I think that I heard the Minister confirm that this covers the public, private and charitable sectors, any one of which may be providing healthcare as listed in new paragraph (5). Am I right to assume that this does not cover care homes or nursing homes, and that they are covered elsewhere?
Finally, I am relieved that body piercing and tattooing parlours are exempt from the order. I also wonder whether chemical peels, which are fashionable now, are covered under paragraph (5)(e)(iii) and (iv) for the purposes of this order.
This order is otherwise perfectly straightforward and I support the Minister in moving the Motion.
Earl Howe
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her questions. The first point to make is that we are in time with this order, because the operative date is 1 October, so there is no retrospective element. There is therefore no question of any hospital having fallen between two stools, so to speak, as regards water disconnection. I am not aware that there has been a problem on that front.
The noble Baroness asked about the definition. Schedule 4A to the Water Industry Act 1991 lists a number of premises that are not to be disconnected for non-payment of water charges. These include, among other premises, NHS hospitals, premises used to provide medical or dental services by registered practitioners, children’s homes, schools and care homes. These premises will continue to be protected from disconnection for the non-payment of water charges. No changes are being made to these parts of the schedule.
The noble Baroness also asked whether chemical peels were excluded under new paragraph (5)(e). As that procedure is not counted as surgery, chemical peels are not included and therefore do not receive protection from disconnection under paragraph (5)(e).
Baroness Hussein-Ece
I should like to ask my noble friend a couple of questions. I understand completely the need for this order. It is a sensible step and an important one to ensure that the establishments mentioned do not suddenly have their water cut off. However, I want to ask what penalties are in place for water companies that do not follow these regulations and how are they enforced. Further, what review mechanism is in place if other establishments need to be added to the list in due course?
Earl Howe
My Lords, as regards the penalties, I am going to have to write to the noble Baroness because, as she will understand, those are a matter for another department. I know that I am here to speak for the Government as a whole, but I am afraid that I do not have that information in my brief. On a review of the list of those premises that are exempt from disconnection, again, I will write to her.
Electricity and Gas (Carbon Emissions Reduction) (Amendment) Order 2010
Lord Marland
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Electricity and Gas (Carbon Emissions Reduction) (Amendment) Order 2010.
Relevant Document: Second Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Lord Marland)
My Lords, the carbon emissions reduction target, known as CERT, requires the larger energy supply companies to meet household carbon emissions reduction targets. The amending order before the Committee will extend the supplier obligation policy framework to December 2012 and significantly refocus it over that period. It will act to drive investment and secure jobs in energy efficient industries, ensure that households and the UK more broadly save energy and money, and reduce carbon emissions.
Before I turn to the detail of the order, let me remind noble Lords of the critical role I believe energy efficiency has as part of the transformation to a low- carbon society. UK households spend £20 billion on energy each year, mostly on electricity and gas, and account for 30 per cent of all the energy consumed in the UK, thus directly contributing to climate change the energy used to heat our homes. Energy saving measures are therefore a win-win. They help to increase our energy security by reducing our reliance on imported fossil fuels, they provide environmental benefits by delivering carbon emissions reductions and local air quality improvements, and they support fairness by providing hard-pressed families with a simple means of saving money and protecting against cold, inefficient homes. They provide further economic benefits by creating employment opportunities in the manufacturing and service delivery of energy-efficient technology.
The UK’s housing stock retains substantial opportunities to improve its thermal efficiency. That is why we are putting in place our radical and ambitious green deal, to be established through legislation in the forthcoming Energy Security and Green Economy Bill. The green deal will be a game changer. It will take a long-term approach to energy efficiency, unlocking capital investment and transforming the landscape for home energy efficiency improvements. However, it is imperative that we maintain and, where possible, quicken the pace of energy efficiency investment and activity immediately while we develop and implement the longer-term green deal.
I know that there is a good deal of consensus around the importance of the issues that the order addresses, and I welcome that fact. The refocused and extended CERT will set suppliers a new, challenging carbon emissions reduction target, will focus the scheme on driving insulation measures and will help low-income households get an improved share of investments. It will act as an important bridge to the future, building momentum as we put in place the arrangements for the green deal.
I turn to the specific amendments that we are making with the order. In doing so, I thank those people and bodies who responded to the public consultation process across the spectrum of interested partners, including energy suppliers, the insulation industry and local authorities as well as environmental and fuel-poverty groups. Their contributions have been crucial in forming our decisions.
We will extend CERT to the end of 2012, increasing the target by 108 million lifetime tonnes of CO2 and setting a new overall target of 293 million lifetime tonnes of CO2. This increase equates to just over a 3 per cent cut in household greenhouse gas emissions in 2013. Given how far advanced suppliers are in meeting their existing targets, we will allow suppliers to start work against this new target immediately to ensure that customers’ access to energy efficiency measures is not interrupted.
We will act to stamp out the mistakes of the past by introducing a complete ban on the subsidy of halogen and compact fluorescent lamps, and will focus instead on installed measures. Through this order, we will require over two-thirds of the increase in the overall target to be delivered through professionally installed loft, cavity wall and solid wall insulation. This will provide the insulation industry with confidence to invest and will ensure that all customers who want to make a real difference to their energy bills and carbon footprint have cost-effective opportunities to do so. That means help for some 3.5 million households from insulation measures.
To ensure an equitable distribution of measures, and in the light of the rising blight of fuel poverty, we are creating a new obligation for those households that have the greatest need. Low-income pensioners, families with children and the disabled will form a super priority group. Further, each benefiting household will be required to receive a heating or insulation measure. That means an estimated 600,000 such measures professionally installed in the most vulnerable homes, and over £400 million focused on helping the very poorest. Additionally, we will provide vulnerable households with continued support for microgeneration measures under CERT, such as heat pumps and solar water heating.
Our building block for targeting these vulnerable households is the energy rebate scheme, now aimed at a subset of pension credit claimants. We expect up to 250,000 pensioners on low income to receive a rebate worth £80, meaning up to £20 million under this scheme. These vulnerable households can go on to be targeted with supplier offers under CERT.
Overall, the CERT extension will have a significant positive impact on fuel poverty, with approximately 175,000 households expected to be provided with measures that provide them with a long-term solution to fuel poverty. Many more households will receive measures that will protect them from falling into fuel poverty.
In summary, the reshaping of the scheme that this order represents will help deliver a step change in insulation rollout and maximise the scheme’s contribution to environmental and social ambitions. I call on your Lordships to support this legislation in order to bring new impetus to the household energy efficiency agenda with immediate effect and ensure that we can best serve the interests of the economy and the public. I commend the order to the Committee.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
My Lords, I welcome what my noble friend said. He explained briefly the reason for the urgency of the measure; that point has been made to me by some of the interested parties. They desperately need to know where they stand at the end of the existing second phase of the CERT programme. As my noble friend said, the order provides a continuation up to the end of 2012.
However, perhaps my noble friend will comment on one of the consequences of the urgency with which the Government have brought forward the measure. I have in front of me the Merits Committee’s report. Under the heading, “Other instruments of interest”, it refers to this order. The paragraph ends:
“However, given the speed with which the Government wishes this SI to proceed, the Committee has not had the opportunity to make any detailed assessment of the instrument”.
I say with kindness to my noble friend that that requires some explanation. It is not satisfactory that this House should have a Merits Committee, which examines matters in the field of statutory instruments which are of interest, but which is precluded simply for shortage of time from being able to offer its comments.
We will have to do the best that we can. The report was published only last Thursday, on 22 July. It has been quite difficult to keep up with what has been going on. Obviously, I will have to do my best. There has been very little opportunity to consult with those outside, but it is a very complicated issue—not so much the changes that my noble friend has outlined, which are themselves quite complex, but the documents that accompany the order are very large. We have had the summary of consultation responses and the government response, a document running to no fewer than 50 pages, and the impact assessment, which runs to 77 pages. Like other noble Lords who have been faced with those documents at short notice, my questions to the Minister may seem naive and ill informed, but I shall have to do my best.
I found it a depressing experience to read the order, the consultation document and the impact assessment with which we have been supplied. That is not because the CERT scheme is undesirable; when we have debated the order’s predecessors, I have made the point firmly that the need to attack and deal with the poor quality of much of our existing housing stock is of huge importance, both to make life a bit more comfortable for the inhabitants and, as the Minister rightly pointed out, to achieve higher energy efficiency. What depresses me is its extremely complicated and bureaucratic method of achieving that.
I have had occasion to criticise that in the past and, although I have the copies of Hansard here, I promise noble Lords that I will not repeat what I have said on previous occasions. If anyone doubts whether it is bureaucratic and complex, just skim through the 77 pages of the impact assessment. That must have required a huge number of man hours to prepare for publication. One really has to wonder whether all that is necessary. I shall return to that point towards the end of my remarks.
In the mean time, I have a few more detailed questions to address to my noble friend. I turn at once to the major change in the order—the new super priority group. I can well understand the aim and have a good deal of sympathy with it. I should declare an interest: I am a member of the priority group. As such, I was able to get my house insulated—both loft and cavity wall insulation. I shall not repeat the horrors of that experience, but it filled me with a strong impression that the biggest single barrier we face is household hassle.
Under the priority group, 40 per cent of the carbon savings must come from people who enjoy a range of benefits or are pensioners aged over 70. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, will recognise that we have frequently had to complain about the difficulty for the suppliers who have to operate the scheme identifying the households that qualify for that treatment. I dealt with that two years ago under the 2008 order and again last year under the 2009 order. One concession was made by the Minister's predecessors. Under the Pensions Act, we had an order which allowed information to be shared on what was a very limited category of those in the priority group—namely, pension credit beneficiaries. No doubt that has been helpful. The data protection rules make it impossible for there to be a general exchange of names and addresses of people who fall within the various categories of beneficiary under the social security legislation.
Therefore, the companies which have to operate the scheme are reduced to other methods to try to find the people in the priority group, including cold calling and, much more intelligently, looking at areas and cities where they might expect to find a higher concentration of people in receipt of the various benefits. The point was made to me again this morning that that is a very unsatisfactory process which costs them a lot of money. It increases the cost of administering the whole scheme.
In the order, we are now faced with a new category, the super priority group. If anyone is any doubt about that, paragraph 3.2 of the order spells out the definition of those who are in the super priority group. It is nearly a full page long. Does my noble friend have a better answer than did his predecessors as to how on earth the companies are supposed to find out who those people are, so that they can approach them and, if they agree, insulate the houses in the way we all want?
I turn to the consultation. I will not weary noble Lords with the detail, but at paragraph 8.4 of the results of the consultation, there were many conflicting answers on how that problem should be tackled. I do not see any advance in the order on what has gone before. That is my first question.
My second question relates to the concept of market transformation measures. Again, there is an elaborate definition of that in subparagraph (4) of paragraph 3. Paragraph 7.4 of the Explanatory Memorandum spells that out in some detail. The second point in that paragraph states:
“CERT supports innovation and energy saving products and appliances”—
which my noble friend very properly mentioned in his speech—
“by providing a 50% increase in carbon score to qualifying products. The market transformation baseline”,
is set out in the 2001 order, thus going back some years.
“This means that a measure which saves carbon but was not promoted under the 2001 Order can be promoted as a market transformation action under the CERT order. However, we will increase the baseline to measures which have not been promoted under the …Order 2004. This will mean that suppliers need to come forward with new products or similar products which are no less than 20% more efficient than products promoted under the previous scheme to March 2008”.
I have hunted through the order, I hope with care, but I cannot find where the figure of 20 per cent comes from, so I would be most grateful if my noble friend could explain where in the order is the uplift, as it were, of 20 per cent which needs to be met. It is set out in the Explanatory Memorandum but I am quite unable to find it in the order.
Lord Reay
My Lords, this order extends the scheme in both time and scope to promote various energy efficiency measures to be carried out on residential properties, principally insulation measures, designed to reduce domestic users’ consumption of heating fuel. In so far as they have that effect, they will reduce the carbon emissions attributable to the domestic sector. In so far, however, as consumers choose instead to enjoy a greater measure of what the department calls “thermal comfort”—that is, choose to use the same amount of heating fuel in order to maintain a higher temperature in their homes—it will have no effect on carbon emissions.
What effect this will have in the event is apparently to be assessed in a review to be conducted by Ofgem at the end of the scheme in 2013. Even then, though, assessing the effect on carbon consumption of the energy-saving measures adopted under this scheme will largely be a matter of guesswork. Therefore, how will we be able to distinguish the effect of energy-saving measures from the effect of variations in energy prices, of variations of people’s real incomes or even of variations of winter temperatures on the amount of heating fuel that households choose to consume?
I will not go deeply into one of the issues that my noble friend took up. I will leave on one side the question of whether it is worth while performing the extraordinary intellectual gymnastics contained in the order’s 77-page impact assessment in order to justify measures that in the best case will provide a reduction amounting to an infinitesimally small fraction of present global carbon emissions. I will instead agree that using fuel more efficiently and promoting that efficient use is inherently a good thing, but still needs to be viewed in the light of its cost.
The cost of carrying out measures such as cavity wall insulation is largely to be borne by the supplier—entirely so, in the case of the new super priority group—but in some cases the consumer apparently has an option to contribute. As the impact assessment says on page 61, the share of costs borne by suppliers depends on the householder’s willingness to pay. What happens when the householder does not wish to contribute? Does the supplier then pay all the cost, or do the measures then not get carried out? Will the Minister give us any assessment that his department must have made of the likely take-up rate of consumers of this choice?
The suppliers’ costs, of course, are recouped by the additional charges that they can put on customers’ bills, so although giving special treatment to the priority group and the special priority group may help with alleviating fuel poverty, everyone else therefore has to pay a higher price, which, apart from anything, else, will result in additions to the ranks of those in fuel poverty. The impact assessment is frank about this. On page 23, it estimates that,
“for the average UK house, the costs of higher fuel prices on their annual fuel bills would be £46 in 2011 and £61 in 2012”.
Those are not negligible increases, although it would be interesting—as my noble friend was trying to learn—to know what the total estimated cost for the measures might be. I could not find it in the impact assessment, although it must have been assessed in order to produce the figures about the effect on individual bills. I realise that it will be based on a pyramid of assumptions, as are all the other figures in the impact assessment, but the Minister should have it.
Lord Teverson
My Lords, after those two speeches the Minister will be looking forward to that of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for some empathy. One thing I have discovered from being on these Benches is the picture opposite, which I have not seen before. I would stare for hours at “The Judgment of Daniel” in fear that one day it might be me. My sight is not good enough to see quite what that picture is about: it looks like a tragic circumstance with someone having befallen some terrible fate. Hopefully, that will not happen in this Committee.
I welcome the order as an interim measure. I very much agree with the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, on that issue. It starts to improve a number of weaknesses of the original CERT scheme. The scheme had good intentions and was a good start, but a lot was still left to be desired. I hope that it will move on quite soon. I have said this before, so I shall say it only briefly, but it is counterintuitive to me that we have energy companies charged with reducing energy consumption. Somehow, life tells me that you get energy companies to be as efficient as they can by doing what they do well, which is producing energy, and get someone else to reduce consumption. However, the scheme is about energy saving, which has been the Cinderella subject of climate change and energy security, and I welcome it as an improvement.
There is one area that was put right by the previous Government, but the deal is sealed on this: light bulbs, of which I am sure that all of our houses are full. It was used as an easy way out by energy companies just to distribute them. I remember my fear of visiting my mother because every time I went to her house, she handed me a whole tray of energy-efficient light bulbs that she did not want but which had been thrust on her by her energy supplier. There was a bit of a farce with organisations going through the motions of energy saving that did not really happen. What we have instead is a much greater emphasis on insulation and the things that really make a difference. I am interested to see that microgeneration schemes are also mentioned.
On targets, I notice that there is a spectacular increase of 58 per cent, until you read down the bullet points and notice that the carbon budget extends over a much longer period. I would be interested to understand what the actual percentage uplift is pro rata in the overall targets for carbon reduction. The super priority group again sounds good, but I came up with exactly the same questions as did the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin: how do you identify this group and therefore how do you supply it?
The difficulty about the ongoing CERT scheme, which the order does not greatly improve, is the whole issue of value for money, of auditing and of transparency in how the money is spent. It is not public money because it never hits the public purse, the Chancellor’s piggy bank, but it is money that is paid compulsorily as a levy, effectively as a charge on individuals who use energy, which is all of us. It is not properly transparent in the way that it is used and whether energy companies do the work themselves or requisition it, where the margin goes or how the work is bid for. All of that is very unclear in terms of what in many ways would be seen as public money.
The figure that really struck me on reading the Explanatory Notes— no doubt it comes out of the elaborate cost estimates—is that of just under £9 billion-worth net present value of the scheme. My mind boggles as to how we get to that figure. It makes it sound a perfect and fantastic scheme if we are somehow all to receive that in our pockets. Net present values can be quite useful, but we must remember that although the super group is targeted here to reduce energy poverty, the scheme puts about £45 on every electricity bill in additional costs. It is well used at the moment, but we have to perform far better in the future than we have done in the past, and I look forward to further legislation.
Although I have enjoyed looking at the picture, what is more important is that I have the same view of the same people on the other side of the room, which is excellent.
Lord Woolmer of Leeds
My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, I have a different view of the room, but I can also see the same people and it is a great pleasure to see old friends here again. I have one simple question. In the 1960s and 1970s, I recall the piecemeal efforts made to improve old Victorian housing stock in Leeds. In the end the council adopted what eventually became a national approach, that of taking whole areas of housing, identifying it as old stock and designating “whole house improvement areas”. The council worked through the worst of the housing by taking a whole series of streets at a time. In some cases, we decided to demolish the houses because it was never going to be worth trying to keep them, but other areas were kept. This proved to be an extremely cost-effective way of dealing with improvements.
Certain areas of housing clearly need improvements in terms of energy efficiency. It seems to be common sense, and it may be that this is what is being done in some areas, that if one works through the areas most in need, that is a cost-effective approach. But instead of doing that, we are attempting to prioritise in the first instance individual properties where particular people with particular characteristics live. That is extraordinarily difficult to do, as the documents we are considering today show. In any case, people die or move on into other housing, and some individuals may therefore qualify again. My question for the Minister is this: will the Government reflect on whether the most cost-effective approach over 15 or 20 years would be by area? Clearly we would not be going into more recently built housing for a long time. This approach could be funded in the same way and suppliers could put the work out to tender by negotiation with local authorities who know the areas well and can easily identify them. This approach may already be in train, and it seems to be the most cost-effective one—not in the short run, that cannot be denied, but over a period of time it would be. Certainly it would avoid all the bureaucracy of trying to identify people in particular circumstances and with particular needs, but who are in fact moving targets. I hope that the Minister can reflect on this when he responds.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I should like to welcome the Minister to the world of order-making and the familiar cast list of noble Lords present who spoke in a similar debate a year ago. The Community Energy Saving Programme is extremely important and we see this as a critical part of how we can help people to make energy savings, cut their household bills, and contribute to permanent reductions in CO2 emissions. Over the years that the schemes have been in operation, millions of households have been helped. However, as noble Lords have suggested, there is no room for complacency. That is why the previous Government consulted on the scheme a few months ago, and on the amendments to the existing framework. I am grateful to the Minister for his explanation.
I will also ask a question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin. I, too, have read the brief report of the Merits Committee, and I am grateful to the committee for its work and comments. As the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, said, the committee noted that the detailed impact assessment, which runs to 77 pages, is attached to the statutory instrument that we are debating today. The committee said that it had not had the time to make a detailed assessment of the instrument, given the speed with which the Government wish the SI to proceed. Like the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, I ask the Minister for an explanation. I am confused: surely the Merits Committee must be given enough time in which to do its job properly. I speak as the first chair of the Merits Committee, the point of which is to have time to go through statutory instruments in order to make a judgment on whether it should draw to the attention of the House that scrutiny of a statutory instrument merits special attention. If it does, it is marked with an asterisk on the Order Paper, which usually will lead to a debate in the Chamber. The Minister should explain why the Select Committee has not been given proper time to do its job. I am sure that, when the SI goes back to your Lordships' House, I will raise this matter on the Floor of the House.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
I do not know when we will have an opportunity to come back to this: perhaps tomorrow or Wednesday. I am sure that the Minister wants to get his order through before the Summer Recess. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, raised the issue of whether the figures should appear on bills. He would do well to remind himself of what he said when I moved similar amendments in the past that were rejected by the then Government.
I had thought that we would have this. It was in my honourable friend Mr Hendry’s speeches on many occasions; but we will have to wait and see. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, is being a little disingenuous. He, in fact, has turned this down in the past.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
We were not always able to agree with the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, on specific proposals, but I do not think that I ever argued with him on the general principle. I realise that “The Judgment of Daniel” is facing me and that I must be very careful about how I respond, but I recall the noble Lord, Lord Reay, raising this very point in Grand Committee 12 months ago. I am absolutely convinced that if we are seeking to ensure that these measures are taken—and I do not mean just the measures that will have to be taken on energy saving, but more generally in terms of the energy strategy; no doubt we will discuss this tomorrow afternoon in relation to the Statement on energy—the more general information that can be provided to the public, the better.
My noble friend Lord Woolmer mentioned the scheme in Leeds in which whole housing areas were taken together. In the inner city in Birmingham we also had a scheme called “enveloping”. Essentially, the local authority renovated the whole structure of houses which might have been privately rented or owner occupied. That scheme was enormously effective and meant that in many inner city areas, instead of houses being knocked down, some of the social fabric of the areas was maintained. I have long thought that such an approach could be used in relation to energy saving. We will be very interested to hear the Minister give some indication of when he is likely to come forward with proposals. He mentioned the green deal and the forthcoming energy Bill; I would certainly welcome as much information as he can give about what is likely to be contained in them and when they are likely to come to your Lordships' House.
I remind the noble Lord of a comment made by the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, who was standing in my place on this side of the Room only 12 months ago. When we debated a previous order on this matter, she then referred to Conservative Party policy to grant an entitlement to householders for approved home energy works up to the value of £6,500. At the time, I estimated that a loan guarantee of up to £200 billion would be required of a Conservative Government. I would be interested to know whether thinking has moved on since then. We will look at this carefully, but it strikes me that at a time when they seem to have found it impossible to give a rather modest loan to Sheffield Forgemasters, they have been indulging themselves in schemes which would involve considerable amounts in loans. I should be interested in the noble Lord’s response to that.
Finally, I come to the question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin. Given the current economic circumstances, a particular focus must be the impact on poorer people and households. The order contains a specific amendment in relation to microgeneration which means that suppliers will be able to promote only microgeneration measures that are eligible under other microgeneration support mechanisms for promotion to super priority group households. The noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, asked for information about super priority households. The Explanatory Memorandum states at paragraph 7.4:
“All microgeneration uplifts will be withdrawn from April 2011”.
Can the Minister confirm that this applies only in circumstances arising in this order—in other words, it does not apply generally to the other microgeneration support mechanisms embracing feed-in tariffs and renewable heat incentives? Some clarification would be welcome.
Lord Marland
My Lords, as always, it is a great pleasure to enter into a debate with such eminent gentlemen who know so much about the subject. Perhaps I may deal with the points raised in consecutive order. I note the comments of the noble Lords, Lord Jenkin and Lord Hunt, that this order should have gone through the Merits Committee. You’re damned if you do and you’re damned if you don’t. It is worth pointing out that the Joint Committee of both Houses that scrutinises statutory instruments did not think that it needed drawing to the special attention of both Houses. This legislation is in operation and all we are doing is seeking to extend its lifetime. We have had three months of public consultation; some 102 companies have been consulted, as have the big six and their agencies. The whole point here is to keep up the pressure on an existing programme to build the bridge between now and the green deal.
This programme is being filled quickly—probably quicker than we predicted—and we now have an opportunity to keep up the pressure. It would be wholly wrong to tear up the current programme while it is in force and particularly while we are planning the green deal to which the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, referred. We completely understand the bureaucratic and complex nature of the current arrangements, and I give the noble Lord the commitment that the green deal will seek to address that. As regards his point on difficulty of suppliers, that is a practical issue. Some people have no difficulty with them, while others do. We hear positive remarks and I am sorry that he experienced difficulty. Perhaps if he joins the super priority pension group, it might be a different thing altogether.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
My Lords, I am tempted to regard myself as being very poor, but I am not as poor as that.
Lord Marland
We are deeply gratified to hear that. Of course, it is easy to data-share under the Pensions Act 2008 as it commits to providing data. I am afraid therefore that I do not agree that it is difficult to find out who the relevant people are. Any work with local charity groups and local authorities adds to the information flow. This is not therefore a change; it is an extension of a policy. It gives us time rightly to re-examine his points about bureaucracy and difficulty of commitment.
As regards cost, raised by a number of noble Lords, it is £50 to customers. It is an increase from £41. However, against an average bill of £1,124, it is a worthwhile commitment to the cause. Climate change is not the main driver—this is reducing carbon throughout the supply and we must differentiate between the two. The noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, rightly mentioned the Hartwell report—not for the first time. We have three days of debate coming up. I will lay a private bet that it will be mentioned every day and I look forward to the noble Lord doing so. I believe that the writers of the Hartwell report will see the green deal as an opportunity for their recommendations to be examined. It will give us the opportunity to take their views into account.
The noble Lord asked where legislation states that market transformation requires a 20 per cent improvement on existing products. I repeat that to him as said because it is important that we understand it. I will give him the officials’ response, which is that the CERT legislation details that uplifts will be applied if a significant improvement in efficiency is achieved to previously promoted measures. Ofgem, the scheme’s regulator, has indicated that a 20 per cent improvement is the minimum requirement. Ofgem consulted with suppliers and other interested parties before providing this figure.
My noble friend Lord Reay asked about priority groups and super priority groups and how they are going to be funded. I confirm to him that they will 100 per cent generally be funded. He asked questions about how carbon savings are assessed, especially comfort-taking. Comfort-taking is considered in the impact assessment calculation for the carbon savings, and if he would like more information on that, I would be happy to invite him to discuss it with our officials later.
Lord Marland
The answer is that they may or they may not. There is no fixed method by which to use the commercial levers that are available to them, as you would expect. I hope that that answers my noble friend’s question.
My coalition friend, the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, rightly mentioned that he has changed his place and now has to look at a new picture. I agree that it is nice to see a different prospect and I do not have to work out whose foot that is, lying there wearing the sandal; hopefully, the intelligence of the noble Lords, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Woolmer, will work that out for us. I certainly know who wears the trousers in our household, but I have never worked out who wears the sandals.
He mentioned the counterintuitive nature of the current CERT arrangement. I agree with him that it is counterintuitive; again, the green deal—sorry to bang on—should help to cope with some of that counterintuitivity.
The noble Lord asked what the uplifts are, compared with existing targets. The pro rata extension of the reduction of 108 million lifetime tonnes of carbon dioxide represents a 3 per cent reduction of household emissions from the non-traded sector in 2013. I hope that that deals with his question.
The noble Lord, Lord Woolmer, dealt with what the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, calls “enveloping”. I was wryly pleased that he asked that question; it was the first question that I asked our officials when this was brought to my attention. The answer is that it is the best way of coping with this, and it is the most cost-effective way for the supplier to deal with small groups in certain areas. We should encourage this. I take on board fully what the noble Lord said, but I am amused that we should have thought of the same thing together. I am grateful to him.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, whose baton I am merely picking up on this issue—I am glad I did not get as hard a time as I might otherwise have done—went on about cost. With all due respect to him and to others, there are more than 11 pages in the document outlining the costs. I know that the breakdown is complicated and split into various measures, but I commend it to noble Lords because it is comprehensive, and I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Taylor for talking me through it.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
The RIA, like all RIAs produced by his department, is comprehensive. However, what is difficult to get out of it, and what would have been helpful in the Explanatory Memorandum, is a succinct summary of the likely overall impact on costs.
Lord Marland
I take on board the noble Lord’s point. I addressed the issue of costs earlier. They are not significant in the context of the average bill. The noble Lord mentioned Sheffield Forgemasters. I have a private bet—as this is only round one of three rounds in the next three days—on how many times he will mention that. A lot of discussion and water have gone under the bridge. I confirm that the feed-in tariff will not be affected and I hope that that will give him comfort.
I hope that I have answered the questions that have been put by noble Lords and addressed the issues that they have raised. The principal theme of the order is to keep up the pressure on installation suppliers, to maintain employment and to deliver carbon reduction. It will also help us to bridge the gap between now and the green deal, which is a fundamental part of the Government’s policy. The green deal will bring forward a new and ambitious approach to driving home energy efficiency which will not require up-front payment, but will benefit from the repayment of the costs of work over time through the savings of the Bill.
Ahead of this change, it is essential that we do everything that we can to maintain and, where possible, quicken the pace of energy efficiency movements, and to increase the focus on lower-income pensioners and family households. We can make a difference to household energy bills this winter if we act now. Therefore, I hope that noble Lords will support the refocused CERT scheme so that householders, and the UK more broadly, can reap the benefit of energy-reducing measures as soon as possible. I commend the order to the Committee.
Equality Act 2010 (Consequential Amendments, Saving and Supplementary Provisions) Order 2010
(13 years, 9 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Verma
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Equality Act 2010 (Consequential Amendments, Saving and Supplementary Provisions) Order 2010.
Relevant Document: Second Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
Baroness Verma
My Lords, the underlying theme of the order is to make effective the provisions of the Act in line with its main intention of simplification and consistency. The changes that the order makes fall into three broad categories.
First, some of the changes involve corrections or updates to the Equality Act 2010 itself. Article 3 makes amendments to Section 87 of the Act. Section 87 enables the Secretary of State to give directions using powers under the Education Act 1996 to require a school to comply with its duties not to discriminate against pupils under Section 85. The reason for the amendment is to refer to the corresponding Scottish legislation to ensure that the procedure works for Scotland as well as for England and Wales.
Article 4 makes changes to Section 94, which explains what is meant by various terms used in Chapter 2—on further and higher education—of Part 6. The amendment is needed to reflect concerns from interested parties that there needs to be a definition of “conferment” in the context of awarding qualifications.
Article 5 makes changes to Section 108. Section 108 prohibits discrimination after relationships have ended, and the amendment to subsection (4) is intended to replicate existing law. That is to say that even if a person becomes disabled after the relationship has ended, the duty to make a reasonable adjustment still applies. The current Act could be interpreted as meaning that the duty arose only if the person already had a disability at the time the relationship ended. The amendment puts that right.
Articles 6 and 7 make changes to Sections 132, 134 and 135. Those provisions cover, among other things, the period for calculating arrears where successful claims are made about equal pay or pensions cases in Scotland, in the case of a person with an incapacity or one involving a fraud or error. The effect of the amendment is that the five-year limit for calculating arrears may be extended if it includes time during which the claimant suffered incapacity or was induced by the fraud or error not to raise the claim, subject to a maximum reckonable period of 20 years. The amendments enable the provisions to work correctly in Scotland and reflect the existing position under the Equal Pay Act 1970.
Article 9 amends Part 9 of Schedule 3 to the Equality Act to reproduce an amendment made to Section 19 of the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 by the Rail Passengers’ Rights and Obligations Regulations 2010, after the Equality Act received Royal Assent. Those provisions of the Equality Act restate provisions of the DDA that provide for exceptions to the duty not to discriminate in relation to the provision of transport services for disabled people. The amendment needs to be made to ensure that, when they come into force, the Equality Act provisions are exactly the same as the existing DDA provisions which will be repealed.
To reassure noble Lords, I can state that the amendment does not in any way reduce the rights of disabled persons, but simply ensures that there is no overlap between domestic equality legislation and European transport legislation protecting the rights of disabled people in air and rail transport.
Article 10 amends Schedule 11 to the Equality Act to remove a reference to the Learning and Skills Council, which was abolished just before the Equality Act was enacted. Articles 8 and 11 update certain provisions to refer to EU law rather than Community law, as a result of the coming into force of the Lisbon treaty.
The second category of amendments is to reflect adjustments needed to the existing equality duties to reflect the introduction of new key concepts by the Equality Act. The existing gender duty, race duty and disability duty will be replaced by the new public sector equality duty in Sections 149 to 157 of the Equality Act, but not until some time after October. Therefore, the existing provisions in the Sex Discrimination Act, Race Relations Act and Disability Discrimination Act need to be kept in force for the time being. However, the existing definitions of sex, race and disability discrimination, victimisation and harassment in those Acts are slightly different to those in the Equality Act.
Articles 14 to 16 therefore update the relevant provisions of the Sex Discrimination Act, Race Relations Act and Disability Discrimination Act to reflect the new terminology. This will make it easier for public authorities to operate, as they will not need to use one set of definitions for public sector equality duties and another for all their other equality-related functions.
Baroness Gale
My Lords, I thank the Minister for her remarks and welcome her to her position as Minister with responsibility for equalities and women’s issues in your Lordships’ House, although obviously this is not the first time that the noble Baroness has spoken on these matters, as only last week she replied to our excellent debate on women. I am aware of her excellent record and long experience of working for the enhancement of women, and especially her record of service to women in her own party, so it is good to see her in what I regard as a very important post.
I am pleased to say that we on these Benches agree with the order. It is largely a technical instrument to ensure that existing legislation continues to work well when the Equality Act commences. As the noble Baroness said, it makes minor amendments and repeals other primary legislation relating to the Act, which brings together nine separate pieces of legislation into one single Act. That simplifies the law and reduces the burden on business by making it easier for firms to comply with discrimination legislation. It will also help many individuals to deal with difficulties that they may experience relating to any form of discrimination.
The core provisions of the Act are due to come into force in October, so it is important that we deal with these matters now. I am pleased to say that I followed the Equality Bill as it made its way through your Lordships’ House and saw it become law. We now have a strong and robust piece of legislation that will allow people to lead their daily lives in a way that shows tolerance and fairness to all. The whole of our society should welcome that. Also, I am proud that the previous Labour Government were able to produce such an Act, but of course with the co-operation of all the parties in the House.
Although this is a comprehensive Act, much guidance will need to be given by the Government Equalities Office and the Equality and Human Rights Commission. I am sure that the Minister will be able to confirm that these guidance notes will be available so that everyone can ensure that the Act is fully understood and that the publications will be there to assist all to appreciate the workings and the intentions of the Act.
A press release issued by the GEO in recent days stated:
“The first wave of implementation of the Equality Act will go ahead to the planned October timetable following the publication of the first commencement order in Parliament …. This will pave the way for the implementation of landmark provisions to protect disabled people from discrimination and tackle the gender … gap”.
That sums up the Act perfectly and is what the order is about. We on these Benches welcome the order as it is another step along the road to the full implementation of the Equality Act in the coming months. I thank the Minister again and I wish her well in her new role.
Lord Addington
My Lords, this is one of those times when there is not much to say, and I shall be quick about saying what little there is to say.
Basically, there is nothing to disagree with here. As the noble Baroness, Lady Gale, said, it carries on the previous Government’s good work in many fields. It brings everything together in one Act, or tries to. The law here, good and well intentioned though it was, was a bit like a cat’s cradle and thus occasionally became a dog’s dinner, if I am allowed to double my metaphors; there was so much legislation that crossed over. Everyone who is involved in any part of this area of the law should welcome this approach. Not only is there nothing to disagree with here, but hopefully we shall carry on in this way.
Baroness Verma
I thank the Committee for this short but quality debate. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Gale for her kind welcoming remarks. I also pay tribute to the wonderful work that she has done in this area. I assure her that there will be several pieces of guidance. Five summary guides were published on 5 July, and a further set of quick-start guides will be released over the summer.
I welcome my noble friend’s comments. We all want to ensure that we can make society as equal as possible. Wherever we find discrimination against any group that we are able to eradicate, we will do so. This piece of legislation is a tool to help us achieve that.
On that note, I hope that we shall have no problems in passing the order. The Equality Act 2010, which went through this House just a few months ago, has momentum, and I hope that with your Lordships’ approval, we will see the benefits of it soon.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Harris of Richmond)
My Lords, as we are waiting for the next business, the Committee will adjourn for five minutes.
Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005 (Disclosure of Information by SOCA) Order 2010
(13 years, 9 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Neville-Jones
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005 (Disclosure of Information by SOCA) Order 2010.
Relevant Document: Sixth Report, Session 2009-10, from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville-Jones)
My Lords, the order will designate the functions of the UK’s anti-doping organisation as being of a public nature for the purposes of Section 33 of the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act. This will allow the Serious Organised Crime Agency to disclose information to UK Anti-Doping. The order was laid by the previous Government to help the UK prevent doping in sport. This Government are equally committed to tackling doping and are happy to take it forward. There is a strong public interest in preserving the integrity of sport, which is of particular significance in the run-up to our home Olympic and Paralympic Games in 2012. UK Anti-Doping was set up to address this interest and to protect the right of athletes to compete in drug-free sport. UK Anti-Doping also ensures that the UK Government meet their commitments under UNESCO's anti-doping convention, which include tackling the trafficking and supply of doping substances.
The traditional way of stopping athletes doping has been through education and testing; but we have learnt that rogue scientists and cheating athletes will always try to elude the system by relying on testing not always exposing them. We must keep pace with international best practice and go after those who facilitate doping by supplying the substances that are banned in sport, which are much less detectable than they used to be. This calls for a more investigative and intelligence-based approach. Experience in other countries has shown that where there are partnerships between anti-doping organisations and law enforcement agencies, trafficking and supply routes have been disrupted and perpetrators have been caught. This approach is seen as essential by the World Anti-Doping Agency, which co-ordinates the global fight against doping in sport.
UK Anti-Doping can already obtain information from a range of sources, including the UK Border Agency and the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency. Allowing SOCA to have a gateway would greatly add to those sources and would be particularly important because SOCA receives information from UK police forces as well as from Interpol. That will allow UK Anti-Doping to obtain information about the traffickers and the suppliers of these substances and will avoid it having to set up separate gateways with each of the 52 police forces in the UK, taken overall.
Lord Brett
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for the background and detailed information about how we take forward this important piece of secondary legislation. The Opposition support it and I commend it to the Grand Committee.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, I, too, am grateful to the Minister, as she anticipated one or two of my questions, but I have a couple more—a little more than the noble Lord, Lord Brett. First, it was interesting that we are dealing with SOCA providing information to a non-departmental public body. I could have understood the position more easily were it the other way around, as SOCA is the organisation that really needs the information. However, I appreciate the concerns which underlie this measure.
I was interested in the Information Commissioner’s comments. The noble Baroness anticipated these to some extent, but his office emphasises that the question of whether disclosure of information to the anti-doping agency is fair and proportionate necessitates detailed consideration of what information is to be shared and why. I assume that this refers to the need for the assessment to be carried out on a case-by-case basis and that what is being said is that one cannot give global rubber-stamping to this work when dealing with confidentiality and human rights requirements.
The Explanatory Memorandum refers at paragraph 7.4 to,
“obtaining evidence to help pursue drugs cheats”.
I should like to understand whether that is part of this programme, if we are talking only about individuals. It does not immediately strike one as being serious and organised crime, although that may simply be the way that this paragraph is worded and that what we should understand by it is that an individual may be part of a serious and organised crime.
The Minister said that there would be no significant additional cost. Can she therefore confirm that the figures given in the papers attached to the impact statement on a requirement for eight extra staff at SOCA, with a budget of around £100,000, are correct? I appreciate that in government £100,000 is sometimes regarded as small beer, but the public might not always see it that way. I was a little surprised to see that eight more staff were needed. I should have thought that that sort of work might have been swept up in the work that was already being carried out, but I am probably too optimistic on that score.
Baroness Neville-Jones
My Lords, the noble Baroness raises a number of points. The reason that we have the arrangement of SOCA being willing to provide information to an NDPB is because the sporting community is extremely unwilling to see an extensive criminalisation of the control of doping in sporting activity and wants to try to pursue a policy where best practice, peer pressure and effective action by the sports’ regulatory bodies are the way by which it is controlled. That accounts for doing it this way. Clearly, if it was concluded that that was not effective, one would have to look again at the arrangements, but the doping that goes on at the moment is not so excessive that it is thought necessary to bring in SOCA in a big way.
On the number of people needed, unless I am mistaken, I think that the eight extra staff will not be employed by SOCA but will be acquired by UKAD, because it has to set up a unit to process the information that it gets from SOCA and to decide the action that needs to be taken. Those individuals need some security clearance, so there is a reason for needing a specialised staff. For SOCA, it is true that the information that it is able to supply is in many respects a by-product of other investigations, but it is extremely useful to the sporting regulatory agencies.
As for the question of drugs cheats, one reason why it will be increasingly necessary to go down that road is that the testing procedures have been shown to be only partially adequate, because practices have developed where either substances are used which are extraordinarily difficult to detect in tests, or they are being dosed in such small amounts that they do not show up in a test, such that one has to go to a more forensic approach to dealing with those cheats. That is why, in the end, one has to bring in an agency which might have information about suppliers. It is, in the end, the suppliers whom we need to try to choke off so that the substances never reach the performers. We are witnessing a change in the nature of the doping culture that, in turn, leads to new investigative techniques having to be employed.
Lord Imbert
My Lords, first, I apologise to the Minister for rising before she had had an opportunity to respond to the speech of the noble Baroness.
Your Lordships will be relieved to know that my contribution to our proceedings this afternoon will be very brief—in fact, less than three minutes. I hope that that does not diminish the impact of what I say on this most important subject. Illegal drugs have become the scourge of modern society throughout the world. Thousands of deaths are recorded annually, and national and international organised crime thrives on that disgraceful trade worldwide. In some areas of the globe, sport has been wholly corrupted by the poison of performance-improving drugs. No longer, when we see an outstanding sporting performance, can we cheer unreservedly without thinking the unthinkable: was he or she using a performance-enhancing drug? That cynicism among spectators is grossly unfair to those athletes and sportsmen and women who are honest and cast aside the temptation to cheat by the use of such substances.
I believe that, fortunately, the honest athletes and sportspeople are still in the majority, but we must be vigilant. Only by law-abiding individuals and organisations sharing intelligence about the trafficking, sale and use of illegal or performance-enhancing drugs can action be taken to prevent or reduce this evil and destructive business.
Baroness Neville-Jones
The noble Lord makes a very important point when he says that the cheats and those who connive with them destroy trust between competitors and also between competitors and the audience. That is extremely destructive, particularly of the Olympic spirit. The Government agree that we must do what we can to stamp on this. It is very much to be hoped that this move by the UK will increase our ability to contribute to the international effort that has to be made against doping in sport. There are people who make a more than adequate living out of producing ever more sophisticated performance-enhancing drugs. We must chase them as hard as we can. I am grateful for the support of the noble Lord.
House of Lords
Introduction: Baroness Hughes of Stretford
Introduction: Lord Blair of Boughton
Introduction: Lord Allan of Hallam
Agriculture: Dairy Industry
Baroness O'Cathain
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have for the dairy industry.
Lord De Mauley
Our goal is a competitive, profitable dairy sector that produces for the market. It should meet consumer needs while protecting and enhancing the environment it depends on to safeguard future production. We are reinvigorating the Dairy Supply Chain Forum, which my honourable friend Jim Paice chairs, to identify and tackle the issues affecting the industry’s health. We are developing the milk road map and involving ourselves closely in the EU High Level Group for dairy.
Baroness O'Cathain
My Lords, I thank my noble friend very much indeed for that positive reply to my Question. Does he agree that, despite the vicissitudes of the past 13 years, the dairy industry has shown remarkable resilience and been extremely innovative in its products? In view of the statement made by the Secretary of State in this week’s issue of Country Life that:
“The growing world population means that food security is becoming a very serious issue”,
and that she is,
“determined to help British agriculture to increase production”,
does he further agree that it would be a very good idea if the department and the dairy industry got together to work out a long-term strategy for the industry so that, if we do have food shortages, it will be able to cope?
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, the industry is a significant part of British agriculture and is, as my noble friend said, resilient and innovative. Our main strategic thrusts, which cover several objectives, including food security, are active participation in the EU High Level Group for dairy and the Food 2030 strategy. In addition, we are introducing an ombudsman into the OFT to enforce the groceries and supply code of practice, to curb abuses of power and to establish a task force on regulation to identify ways of reducing regulatory burdens on farmers.
Baroness Quin
My Lords, given that the Minister mentioned the idea of the supermarket ombudsman—something to which all parties were committed at the time of the election—has the department for business asked for a second consultation on the establishment of the ombudsman? Is there not a risk that this will further delay the establishment of the ombudsman? What timetable do the Government now propose to set for the establishment of this important post?
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, I am grateful for that question because it allows me to explain that the coalition programme for government, published on 18 May, made a commitment to introduce an ombudsman into the Office of Fair Trading to enforce the GSCOP and to curb abuses of power that act against the long-term interests of consumers. As to the when, about which the noble Baroness asked, we are awaiting the results of the consultation exercise within BIS. This will guide our decision on how best to enforce the GSCOP, which, as I have said, the coalition Government have agreed should be done through an ombudsman.
Lord Williamson of Horton
My Lords, as a former head of the milk division in the Ministry of Agriculture and the owner of a milk churn presented to me by dairy farmers, may I invite the Minister to agree that we have excellent dairy farmers here and excellent natural conditions in the United Kingdom for the production of milk from grass? In order that we can all have the benefit of these advantages, can we make a special effort to ensure that milk is produced and marketed in fair conditions?
Lord De Mauley
I am grateful for that question, which brings us back to the issue of the ombudsman, whose duties will be precisely that. I agree very much with what the noble Lord says.
Lord Lea of Crondall
My Lords, is the Minister aware that, in the European Union, Britain is not atypical in subsidising each cow by £900 per annum? Is he further aware that in the two countries outside the EU that are much vaunted by Eurosceptics outside—that is, Switzerland and Norway—each cow is subsidised by £9,000 per annum?
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, I am not entirely sure what the question was, but we think that competitiveness is extremely important in this market.
Lord Livsey of Talgarth
My Lords, when the supermarket ombudsman is in his place, will the Minister take action to make it illegal for retail milk to be sold for less than the cost of production? It is the reason why 14,000 dairy farmers have left the industry since 1997 and why we have only 11,000 left. The ombudsman should use his powers to address that problem immediately.
Lord De Mauley
I acknowledge my noble friend’s point, but it will be up to the ombudsman to make these sorts of decisions. Industry tells us that there are grounds for cautious optimism in the dairy industry. The continuing decline in production has put pressure on buyers to pay more remunerative prices. Secondly, most major retailers now have dedicated groups of farmers supplying them with milk in return for premium prices.
Lord Scott of Foscote
My Lords, do the Minister’s answers apply simply to farms that produce milk by cows or do they apply also to the increasing number of farms where the milk is produced by goats?
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, I am answering in respect of dairy. I think that means principally dairy cows.
The Lord Bishop of Blackburn
My Lords, does the Minister accept that, if young people are to come into the dairy farming industry, superfast broadband is a necessity? Can he confirm that superfast broadband will be rolled out to the one-third of farmers who are unable to access it?
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, the Government are very keen that broadband should be rolled out. Ministers intend to provide a strong lead in driving forward rural policy, such as ensuring that rapid rollout.
Lord Davies of Coity
My Lords, does the Minister agree that the discounting of milk by the processors and the abolition of the Milk Marketing Board have damaged the dairy industry considerably?
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, I think we need to move on to the future, which is, as I have tried to explain, reasonably positive for the industry.
Housing: Lettings
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will encourage the letting of residential properties by classifying them as businesses in the same way as holiday lettings.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. I remind the House that I have a declared land and property interest in the Register of Lords’ Interests.
The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)
My Lords, the tax system already treats both holiday lettings and residential lettings as businesses. However, furnished holiday lettings can benefit from some of the more generous tax rules for trades. This reflects the fact that they offer extra equipment and services in order to compete with hotels and guesthouses. We have no plans to extend these rules to other property businesses.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
I thank the Minister for that disappointing reply. Is he not aware that if you have holiday lettings, you can roll over capital gains and therefore there is every encouragement to extend your business, whereas if you are a private residential landlord, you do not have that? Furnished holiday accommodation can only be let to anyone for a maximum of 31 days. Surely there is a desperate need for long-term residential accommodation in this country.
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I fear that there is more disappointment coming. I had one grandparent who came from the great state of New South Wales and one parent who was educated there, and I thank my noble fellow Australian for her Question. However, the Government have no plans to change the tax or other arrangements for tenancies in the private rented sector. Since the assured shorthold tenancy rules came in in 1988, the private rented sector has grown steadily and responded flexibly to changes in the wider housing market, and some 21 per cent of tenancies now last for five years or more.
Lord Best
My Lords, I declare private and social housing interests, and I commend the suggestions of the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes. Does the Minister accept the criticisms coming from many sides of the changes to housing benefit, which we fear will mean a rise in arrears, repossessions and homelessness? Does he accept that some new measures are needed if these housing benefit changes are not to discourage private renting at the lower end of the market, where it is most needed?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I am pleased that we have had attention drawn to social housing and housing benefit, because they provide a critical underpinning at the lower end of the residential housing market. Housing benefit will continue at a very substantial level and is a vital part of what comprises the broad housing market that we need in this country.
Lord Rennard
My Lords, does the Minister agree that changes in taxation for private landlords could incentivise them to refurbish and modernise their properties, increase capital gains tax revenues and increase the provision of housing at a time when it is very much needed?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, we never rule out any suggestions for changes and developments of the tax system, but we have no plans to review taxation in the way that my noble friend has suggested.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, in the light of the last question, will the Minister clarify whether all the words that he has said today represent the views of both parts of the coalition?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, what I have said today represents the views of the coalition Government.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
Following the question of the noble Lord, Lord Best, can the Minister inform the House what the cuts in housing benefit, particularly the cut after 12 months for those on JSA, will do to the private residential letting sector?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I am not sure that any assessment of that has been done, but I shall find out and write afterwards.
Lord Clark of Windermere
My Lords, the Question refers to holiday lettings. Is the Minister aware that in many rural areas, especially national parks, where there is a great shortage of housing for local people and many workers’ cottages and former council houses are now used as holiday lets, every holiday let is a house removed from the market for local people?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, the changes to the taxation arrangements for holiday lettings, on which the Government will consult during the summer, are intended to strike a balance between recognising the important contribution that holiday letting makes to the economy in rural areas and making sure that the tax reliefs available are not principally for wealthy owners of second homes. The changes, on which we will consult, will make sure that the taxation benefit available is more targeted than it was previously.
Lord Anderson of Swansea
My Lords, the Minister said that he is not aware of any assessment having been made of the effect of the changes in housing benefit on the private rented sector. Is it not normal in government to assess the effects of policies before they are introduced?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I did not mean to say that no assessment had been made. As I said, I will take back the question, find out what assessment has been made and write on the point.
Lord Myners
My Lords, the Minister clarified in response to a question from my noble friend whether he was answering on behalf of the Conservative Party or the Conservative and Liberal parties. May I suggest that when answering questions in future, Ministers also indicate whether they are speaking in a personal capacity or on behalf of the Government?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I cannot quite see what that has to do with the Question. It could take up a lot of time if every time I stood up, I prefaced it by saying that I was speaking on behalf of the coalition Government, but I am happy to do that.
The Earl of Listowel
My Lords, will the Minister keep in mind the many families and children living in overcrowded and unpalatable conditions when he considers what might be done to encourage more private landlords to come into this area and to refurbish this housing?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I absolutely take the point that the noble Earl has made. My understanding is that the gap on decency between owner-occupied and rented accommodation has lessened over recent years—and indeed rented accommodation is now on average more energy efficient—so some progress is being made.
Sport: Football World Cup 2018
Lord Faulkner of Worcester
To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they are supporting England’s bid for the 2018 World Cup.
Lord Shutt of Greetland
My Lords, the Government wholeheartedly support the Football Association’s bid for the 2018 World Cup. In his first week in office, the Prime Minister discussed the bid with the president of FIFA, the international federation of association football. Both the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport and the Minister for Sport and Olympics went to South Africa to discuss the bid with FIFA executive committee members and to demonstrate the level of government support.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester
My Lords, it gives me pleasure to thank the Minister for that positive and encouraging answer. He will be aware of the PricewaterhouseCoopers study published in May, which demonstrated that the potential benefit to the economy of a successful bid and of staging the World Cup in the summer of 2018 would be of the order of £3.2 billion. Can he clarify two points on his Answer? First, do the Government stand unequivocally by the £300 million of financial guarantees that were entered into by their predecessor in December and which were signed at the same time by the then Leader of the Opposition and the leader of the Liberal Democrats? Secondly, when the FIFA inspection team comes to Britain at the end of August, will it have the opportunity to meet members of the Government at the highest level and be given every encouragement?
Lord Shutt of Greetland
My Lords, I pay tribute to the noble Lord’s involvement in the world of football. First, I am able to confirm that the coalition Government have accepted the position agreed by the previous Government, as indeed the party leaders signed up to last autumn. Secondly, I understand that the inspection team is likely to come in late August and on that occasion will meet the Deputy Prime Minister.
Lord Willis of Knaresborough
What discussions has my noble friend had with the Premier League, to extract some of the obscene money that goes into that league rather than having to depend entirely on the taxpayer to fund a 2018 bid?
Lord Shutt of Greetland
My Lords, I have had no discussions with anybody to do with the Premier League. I think that is above my pay grade, as it were. I am sorry but I cannot help any further about that. Of course, this bid is very different from the Olympics, where there is an Olympic stadium to build and all that that means, in that there are already football stadiums up and down the country—it is a truly national event. They are throughout the land, many in the north of England, and if the bid succeeds in 2018 it will be something for the country as a whole and not just for London.
Baroness Billingham
We firmly support and applaud the work by the previous Administration and by this one. This is something that the country really desires and we all want it to be successful. But clearly the key player here is going to be the Chancellor of the Exchequer, so my question to the Minister is whether he is convinced and can reassure us that the Treasury is absolutely on side on this issue, because without its support the bid is doomed.
Lord Shutt of Greetland
My Lords, obtaining a bid of this nature is a tricky process in that the Government are asked for a range of guarantees, and FIFA has asked for details all to be dealt with in confidence. These are to do with visas, work permits, tax treatment, security, foreign exchange operations, intellectual property and telecommunications. The bid book, as it is called, has been submitted. The Government of the noble Baroness, Lady Billingham, made this country’s best offer in May, in order that this country is in the best place to get this World Cup.
Lord Griffiths of Burry Port
My Lords, can the Minister answer the question put by his noble friend? Have any discussions taken place with the Premier League and is it possible that money might come from sources other than the taxpayer?
Lord Shutt of Greetland
My Lords, I mentioned that I am not aware of the particular discussions with the Premier League. The bidder is the Football Association; there was a suggestion in earlier times that it would be looking for government money to assist it with the bid. That did not turn out to be the case, in that it got resources from elsewhere.
Lord Addington
My Lords, will my noble friend give us an assurance that, in bidding for the football World Cup, we are learning from our successes in the previous tournaments and games that we have achieved and from prior failures that we have had? Can he tell us the exact structure of the bidding for all future large sporting events?
Lord Shutt of Greetland
My Lords, there have been lessons learned from an unsuccessful bid for the 2006 World Cup. There was then an in-depth inquiry by the Culture, Media and Sport Committee of the other place back in 2001. That was analysed by both the Football Association and the Government and fed into the development of the bid structure and what has happened since. Winning the 2012 Olympics was, obviously, a great success story and account was taken of that in going forward for this bid. The major feature is that there is a stand-alone bid company, which has put in the bid. Football may be a national game but it is not a nationalised game. The bid company has done that work on behalf of the Football Association.
Lord Corbett of Castle Vale
Is the Minister aware that FIFA did not pay any tax on the profits it made from the recent world championships—in which England apparently did not take part? Can he assure the House that that will not be repeated should we be successful in this bid?
Lord Shutt of Greetland
My Lords, I cannot confirm that. It is a very tricky line, the whole basis of getting this bid. As I indicated, on the one hand one has to give all this information; on the other, the FIFA people say that Governments should not interfere with the game of football.
Russia
(13 years, 9 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Viscount Waverley
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to improve diplomatic relations and dialogue with Russia.
Lord Kilclooney
My Lords, in the absence of the noble Viscount, Lord Waverley, and at his request, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in his name on the Order Paper.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)
My Lords, the Prime Minister and President Medvedev are agreed that they want to see a stronger, more positive relationship between the United Kingdom and Russia, including through an exchange of ministerial visits. Although our bilateral differences will take time to resolve, we will take forward a broad agenda of practical co-operation that is in both our interests, engaging on the major global, political, economic and security challenges and working to enhance our prosperity.
Lord Kilclooney
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply. Does he agree that, in matters of international affairs, Russia is most important in matters such as Iran, the Caucasus, Nagorno-Karabakh and, of course, the Middle East? It is also one of the most important developing economies in Europe. Do we not need relations that are more positive and which depend on the United Kingdom engaging with rather than talking at Russia? That was my experience, regrettably, when I was in the Council of Europe Assembly, and I know that my noble friend Lord Waverley shares this opinion.
Lord Howell of Guildford
The noble Lord is absolutely right. We need to engage very carefully. The Russians have been through the great traumas of the 20th century and while there are always difficulties and tricky aspects in dealing with them, this is certainly not a relationship of lecturing or harassing, or any other thing like that. This is a relationship of mutual respect, understanding the differences that we have but not letting them overwhelm the important, positive developments of our relations with such a vastly important nation in a whole range of areas. As for the EU, we certainly want to see there a united momentum in engaging with Russia and moving forward positively as well.
Lord Soley
While regular meetings between senior political and business leaders would obviously be very welcome, will the Minister not forget the importance of the links between the Russian and British people? Perhaps some thought can be given to something the Russians have already helped on—a visit to Poolewe where the Arctic convoys assembled during the war to supply Russia, at great loss of British life. The possibility of developing that link could be examined so there is a better understanding of the relationship between Britain and Russia. It has already been developed in a very limited way by the museum at Gairloch just a few miles from Poolewe.
Lord Howell of Guildford
I agree with the noble Lord that that is a positive and interesting aspect and there have of course been others. I do not know whether your Lordships shared my view that there was something rather splendid about seeing a platoon of the Brigade of Guards marching through Red Square the other day in full dress. I liked that.
Lord Wright of Richmond
My Lords, picking up the last point made by the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, can the Minister tell us whether Russia, as a member of the quartet, is playing a significant and positive role?
Lord Howell of Guildford
I think it is in so far as the quartet as a whole is able to get into a positive position. Certainly President Medvedev indicated to our Prime Minister that that was what it wanted to do, but it has found some difficulties dealing with Israel’s position. All members of the quartet are still engaged and want to go forward together and I do not think there is any major gulf between them in recognising the vast importance of trying to make progress on that front.
Lord Teverson
My Lords, while it is important to improve relations between Britain and Russia, what moves are the Government making to free the occupied zones of Georgia—Abkhazia and South Ossetia—and making Russia comply with the Sarkozy agreement which it has clearly failed to do?
Lord Howell of Guildford
My noble friend is quite right. At present Russia is not complying with its commitment to evacuate Georgia, where it still has troops, as well as South Ossetia and Abkhazia. We are all the time raising this issue and pressing the Russians to get into a more acceptable and positive position but progress is slow. At the moment they are not moving.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, the noble Lord mentioned the economy and the important issues between Russia and us. He will know that the UK-Russia intergovernmental steering committee on trade was successfully relaunched in 2008 and last met last November. Are there any plans for that steering committee to meet again this year and, if so, will it be touching on some of the thorny issues such as international banking standards, concerns about corruption and corporate governance taxation?
Lord Howell of Guildford
I cannot answer the noble Baroness on her precise question about the meeting at this moment, but I will check. On corruption, she puts her finger on one of the central problems. There is no doubt that there is a very great deal of corruption still in Russia today and some of it at alarmingly high levels. President Medvedev has highlighted this and says he wants to tackle it. We will do everything to support him but we would like to see more results in certain cases than we have seen so far. Corruption is the cancer that could undermine the whole Russian progress.
Lord Anderson of Swansea
My Lords, in spite of the invasion of Georgia, the Litvinenko affair and the spies in New York, is it not true that we should build on areas where there is a mutuality of interest? One, surely, is the intelligence relationship because we both face Islamist terrorism. What are the prospects of reviving an exchange that I believe has virtually dried up?
Lord Howell of Guildford
I hope that the prospects are getting better. They have not been good, as the noble Lord recognises. There have been real difficulties and building up the degree of mutual understanding and trust on which aspects such as joint intelligence can develop is very difficult and slow. But it is certainly an objective, and part of our view that we should have a better and stronger relationship with great Russia, which remains a major world power.
Wind Turbines (Minimum Distances from Residential Premises) Bill [HL]
Business
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, at a convenient point after four o’clock, my noble friend Lady Neville-Jones will repeat a Statement entitled “Policing in the 21st Century: Reconnecting Police and the People”.
Control of Donations and Regulation of Loans etc. (Extension of the Prescribed Period) (Northern Ireland) Order 2010
Lord Shutt of Greetland
That the draft order laid before the House on 30 June be approved.
Relevant Documents: First Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. Considered in Grand Committee on 21 July.
Communications Act 2003 (Maximum Penalty for Persistent Misuse of Network or Service) Order 2010
Baroness Wilcox
That the draft order laid before the House on 25 March be approved.
Relevant Documents: First Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. Considered in Grand Committee on 21 July.
Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill
Finance Bill
The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)
My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
This Bill follows the emergency Budget and puts in place many of the measures necessary to gain control of the public finances and strengthen the economy. Despite its brevity, this Bill makes significant and necessary changes to our tax system—changes that will secure fiscal credibility, changes that will promote free enterprise and changes that will promote fairness, especially for the most vulnerable in society.
Our Budget was necessarily a tough Budget, but it was also a fair Budget. It set out the decisive and credible plan that is necessary to deal with the record deficit that this Government inherited. We currently have the largest budget deficit in Europe, with the single exception of Ireland, and we are borrowing one pound for every four we spend. Our deficit reduction plan will pave the way for sustainable, private-sector led growth, keep interest rates lower for longer and help to support jobs in the private sector. I cannot put it better than the noble Lord, Lord Myners, put it in this House on 8 June, when he said:
“There is nothing progressive about a Government who consistently spend more than they can raise in taxation, and certainly nothing progressive that endows generations to come with the liabilities incurred by the current generation. There will need to be significant cuts in public expenditure”.
The noble Lord went on to say:
“The Government cannot create jobs. The Government can create an environment that is conducive to the creation of jobs, but they cannot create jobs and we mislead ourselves if we believe they can”.—[Official Report, 8/6/10; col. 625.]
Earlier this month, in its report on the UK, the OECD said:
“The comprehensive budget announced by the government on 22 June was courageous and appropriate. It was an essential starting point. It signals the commitment to provide the necessary degree of fiscal consolidation over the coming years to bring public finances to a sustainable path, while still supporting the recovery”.
Despite containing only nine substantive clauses, the Bill represents a clear change from the past and a new direction of travel. As my honourable friend the Exchequer Secretary said to the other place, it is underpinned by the three principles of responsibility, freedom and fairness. First, the Bill is based on the principle of responsibility. We are taking responsible action to restore our nation’s finances because failure to address the deficit is the greatest economic threat that we face. We have been honest about the scale of the challenge and we have been honest about the actions needed to address it. If we are to bring down the deficit without cutting vital public services, raising valued added tax is an unavoidable choice.
For the first time, we have published within the Budget an analysis of the distributional impacts its measures will have. This shows that fairness underpins the tough choices that the Government have taken to tackle the deficit. It shows that this is a progressive Budget that deals with the deficit fairly: all sections of society will contribute, but the richest pay more than the poorest. We cannot, as some have done, look at the VAT increase in isolation. It is part of a wider package that ensures that the most vulnerable in society are protected. Without tough action on the deficit we risk losing the freedom to protect the services that the most vulnerable rely on.
Our long-term objective remains to increase the income tax personal allowance to £10,000, as set out in the coalition agreement, and we will take steps towards achieving that objective through the rest of this Parliament. Additionally, we have taken steps to increase child tax credit by £150 next year and £60 the following year. As a result of that, the level of child poverty will not increase.
Secondly, the Bill is based on the principle of freedom of enterprise in Britain, the freedom that our private sector so urgently needs in order to thrive and to spearhead a strong and stable recovery. A genuine and long-lasting economic recovery must have its foundations in the private sector. By cutting the corporation tax rate to 27 per cent, the Bill takes the first step towards reversing the decline in the UK’s competitiveness that we have seen over the past decade. As the Budget announced, we will continue to cut the rate of corporation tax by one percentage point every year until it reaches 24 per cent—the lowest rate of any major western economy and the lowest rate that this country has ever known.
The concern has been raised that cutting the main rate of corporation tax would mean that banks do not pay their fair share of taxes. However, I would point to the wider reforms outlined in the Budget, in particular the announcement of a banking levy, which will, in fact, ensure that the banking sector makes a greater contribution, one that outweighs the benefit that it receives from lower corporation tax rates. Banks will pay at least £2 billion more in tax as a consequence of these proposals.
Concerns were also raised in another place that the banks will not be deterred from pursuing risky behaviour. This is not the case: we have taken a targeted approach that preserves competitiveness, while ensuring that those who indulge in risky behaviour pay an appropriate premium for it. Tax competitiveness is good for employment and society as a whole and the bank levy allows us to be competitive while ensuring appropriate tax treatment for those activities that pose the greatest threat.
The reduction in the main rate of corporation tax is just one part of a wider package to build a private sector led recovery. Instead of increasing the small profits rate by 1 per cent, as planned by the previous Government, in next year’s Bill we will cut it to 20 per cent, benefiting some 850,000 companies from April 2011. We are also increasing the threshold at which employers start to pay national insurance contributions, and the Budget included a wider package of support for small businesses.
As we cut the rate of corporation tax we will also reduce allowances. The Budget announced a reduction in the writing-down value of plant and machinery allowances to 18 per cent and a reduction in the annual investment allowance to £25,000. However, allowances will remain broadly in line with depreciation and the annual investment allowance will still cover the annual qualifying expenditure of 95 per cent of businesses. Furthermore, by reducing the main rate of corporation tax in 2011 and changing allowances only in 2012, we are giving companies a timing benefit, which will form part of the £13 billion additional investment that we expect as a result of these changes.
Thirdly, I come to the principle of fairness in the Bill. Clause 2 increases the rate of capital gains tax for higher-rate taxpayers to 28 per cent. This progressive change will substantially reduce the incentive for individuals to disguise their income as a return on capital and will ensure that the appropriate rate of taxation is paid. This is fair in itself, but we have also ensured protection for those on more modest incomes. Consequently, those who pay only the basic rate of income tax will carry on paying capital gains tax at 18 per cent. In addition, this increase in the rate will help to fund the increases in income tax personal allowances that I mentioned. Those who have the most will help to lift more of those who earn the least out of income tax altogether. The optimum rate of capital gains tax has been debated at length in another place. Treasury analysis has shown that 28 per cent is the revenue-maximising level and is therefore the appropriate rate. A different value would reduce revenues, either by increasing the incentive to shift from income to capital or by reducing the incentive to invest in the economy.
Tax avoidance has also been a significant issue during the passage of the Bill. It was raised in reference to corporation tax and capital gains tax and is the target of Clauses 8 and 9, which together protect around £200 million of revenue per annum. The Government are absolutely committed to tackling robustly avoidance and evasion. We must continue to take the necessary steps to protect the Exchequer and to maintain fairness in the tax system. In the future, we want to take a more strategic approach to tax avoidance by protecting against such opportunities when reforming policy and by seeking to reduce complexity within the tax system. Against this background, we are considering whether a general anti-avoidance rule should form one element of those defences and we will seek the views of interested parties on whether there is a case for this approach.
The Government have inherited plans to limit tax relief on pension saving for the wealthiest. Under the approach of the Finance Act 2010, individuals on the highest incomes who are able to make very large pension contributions could have continued to receive pensions tax relief worth up to £51,000 every year. We have concerns about both the complexity and the fairness of the previous Government’s approach but, given the state of the public finances, we cannot ignore the £4 billion of revenue that this policy was set to raise. We are committed to protecting the public finances and we will put forward an alternative measure that will raise no less revenue than the existing plans. We are looking at an approach where annual tax relief available will be restricted to less than half that available under the previous Government’s plan, which will significantly curtail the ability of the super-rich to benefit from pensions tax relief. We want to ensure that this is a fair and effective approach and will be talking to employers, pension schemes and other interested parties to determine the design of an alternative scheme. It was requested in another place that the Government publish an analysis of the impacts of the alternative measure that we establish. I can confirm that the Government, as a part of our commitment to transparency, will publish a range of assessments alongside the legislation, including the impact on the economy and the impacts of the policy, as suggested.
This is a progressive Budget. It ensures that every part of society makes a contribution to deficit reduction, while protecting the most vulnerable, including pensioners. In fact, the Budget included a number of measures to support pensioners, not least our triple lock guaranteeing an annual increase in the state pension in line with earnings, prices or a 2.5 per cent increase, whichever is highest, to the benefit of 11 million pensioners across the country.
Lord Lea of Crondall
Is the noble Lord suggesting that inequality in Britain will be reduced by this Budget?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, as I have already said, the Budget document sets out transparently for the first time tables which have never been published before and indicate the effect on different decile income bands of the population. These show that the Budget is progressive in its effect.
Continuing on the theme of pensions, the Government will enable people in retirement to make more flexible use of their pension savings. We intend to end from April 2011 the obligation to annuitise by the age of 75. Last week we launched a consultation on the detail of this change. The Bill therefore provides interim measures which delay this requirement until an individual has reached the age of 77, so that people turning 75 on or after the day of the Budget will not be required to annuitise before the new system is introduced in next year’s Finance Bill.
To conclude, the Finance Bill is founded on the principles of responsibility, freedom of enterprise and fairness, and is a vital part of implementing the changes to the tax system set out in the Budget. I look forward to hearing this afternoon’s speeches. In particular, I will listen intently to the maiden speeches of my noble friends Lady Browning and Lord Spicer, who bring many years’ experience of scrutinising Finance Bills in the other place. I commend the Bill to the House.
Lord Tunnicliffe
My Lords, I thank the Minister for setting out in such detail the Bill and what it will do. I was tempted for a few moments to think that it would be exciting to go through all this detail and slog it out, clause by clause, in Committee, but I was reminded that it is a money Bill. As such, this afternoon is a formality. Nevertheless, it is an occasion when this House can debate the generality of the Budget. I will stick to that generality, rather than go into much detail.
The objective of the Budget should be to set a fiscal framework for the enhancement of the material well-being of the British people. That is how it should be judged. Does the Budget contribute to the expansion of the production of goods and services that define national well-being? Mr Geoffrey Dicks of the Office for Budget Responsibility told the Treasury Committee in another place that, “logically the chances of” a double-dip recession “have increased” as a result of the Budget. I think Mr Dicks is right, which raises another important question: why is the coalition proposing measures that most objective observers believe will harm the well-being of the British people? To answer that question we need to examine the coalition’s analysis of the crisis and its own justification for its destructive policies. Consider, for example, Mr Cameron’s statement:
“Nothing illustrates better the total irresponsibility of the last Government’s approach than the fact that they kept on ratcheting up unaffordable … spending even when the economy was shrinking”.
Thank goodness the Labour Government did ratchet up spending in the face of the worst financial crisis in 80 years. That is what saved us from entering the terrible recession that would have been our fate if the coalition had been in charge. Indeed, the coalition may take us there. Even now, government expenditure is vital to the maintenance of the fragile recovery.
In the face of the fact that government expenditure is necessary, Mr Cameron still argues that spending is unaffordable. The Budget and the Finance Bill herald massive cuts in the public sector. In his Budget speech, Mr Osborne said:
“What we have not inherited from our predecessors is a credible plan to reduce their record deficit”.—[Official Report, Commons, 22/6/10; col. 166.]
Contrast that with the report by the Office for Budget Responsibility, which demonstrates that the Budget put forward by Alistair Darling would have halved the deficit in four years, exactly the timeframe recommended by the G20 at its meeting in Toronto last month.
Consider also Mr Osborne’s statement that the crisis in the eurozone shows that unless we deal with our debts, there will be no growth. Contrast that with the fact that the UK has the lowest debt to GDP ratio of any major EU economy, that the average maturity of British government debts at 14 years is significantly more than double that of any eurozone economy and that the cost of government borrowing in Britain has been falling all this year. There is no comparison. Mr Osborne said:
“Because the structural deficit is worse than we were told, my Budget today implies further reductions in departmental spending of £17 billion by 2014-15”.—[Official Report, Commons, 22/6/2010; col. 171.]
Note that the Chancellor refers to the structural deficit, not the actual deficit. The structural deficit is a theoretical construct that relies heavily on contentious assumptions. The OBR clearly states that the actual deficit is less than Alistair Darling estimated in March, and the rate of growth of the economy is slightly higher—a fact borne out by second-quarter figures. In other words, the overall economic position is better than my right honourable friend estimated, not worse.
To sum up, it is not true that the overall fiscal position is worse than that presented by Alistair Darling in March. It is not true that the overall economic standing of the UK is comparable with that of major eurozone countries, let alone Greece and Spain. It is not true that the Labour Government had no plan to deal with the deficit. Of course, we have serious economic problems in this country; how could we not when we have just gone through the worst world recession for 80 years and when we have suffered massive convulsions in the financial sector? However, it is our contention that the massive cuts in public expenditure trailed in the Budget will make the situation worse.
There is one crucial question that the Government must face: with the withdrawal of public sector demand planned by the Government, where is the demand in the economy going to come from? The OBR seeks to answer this in the Red Book. It sees only 1.1 per cent coming from private consumption, compared with 1.9 per cent in the boom years. Even 1.1 per cent is likely to be generous as unemployment increases and real pay is cut. Instead, the OBR forecasts that growing business investment will make a positive contribution of 1.1 per cent to the growth of GDP—three times greater than in the boom years—investment in housing will contribute twice as much as in the boom years and the contribution of net trade will be 1.1 per cent, when it was negative in the boom years.
These heroic assumptions are difficult to believe. Of course, the Liberal Democrats will believe them—they have to to keep the coalition together—but do the Tories really think that they are credible, or are they just a cover for the old-fashioned slash-and-burn politics with which they are so comfortable? Their goal is not simply to cut the deficit—Alistair Darling’s proposals did that—but to shrink the public sector, whether it be education, transport or, of course, support for the poor. The Tories want less public sector to make way for tax cuts to come.
One specific measure in this Bill on which I wish to comment is the broken promise on VAT. The Budget announced that VAT would rise from 17.5 per cent to 20 per cent in January 2011. This will cost each household in the country more than £500. Labour rejected a VAT increase as part of our deficit reduction plan and chose to increase national insurance contributions instead.
Lord Bates
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way, but on that point is he familiar with the comments made by Alistair Darling on the “Andrew Marr Show” on Sunday, when he said that he favoured increasing VAT and not increasing national insurance contributions? Does the noble Lord agree with him?
Lord Tunnicliffe
My Lords, regrettably, I did not watch the “Andrew Marr Show” and did not hear Alistair Darling’s precise words. Therefore, I will not comment on them.
Before the election, the Liberal Democrats warned that the Conservatives would raise VAT. Nick Clegg said, “Our plans do not require a rise in VAT, the Tory plans do. Their tax promises on marriage and jobs may sound appealing, but they come with a secret VAT bombshell”. In fact, their election campaign was based on it. During the campaign, the Conservatives repeatedly denied they had plans to raise VAT.
“We have no plans to increase VAT”,
said George Osborne in the Times on 10 April 2010. VAT rises are unfair and regressive, as both David Cameron and Nick Clegg know. David Cameron has made an absolute promise that VAT is regressive and hits the poorest hardest. Nick Clegg shares this view that raising VAT would be regressive and penalise the poor.
I touch upon an area that is difficult given our Budget and expenditure structure. I commend the Government and the OBR for the comprehensive analysis in both the Red Book and subsequent documents that have been released, although some of it is based on assumptions I do not find particularly credible. However, this Budget will change the shape of our society, and we will not see that change until the spending review in the autumn, although we can be sure that it will be significant. The Budget anticipates £83 billion less public expenditure in 2014-15, which is more than £1,000 for every man, woman and child. Some of this will come from efficiency, as Alistair Darling’s Budget assumed. Some will be payments by cash transfer, and they are analysed in the Budget documentation. Yet a most important part will come from the non-cash value that we as citizens get out of society. That is what is so weak about the Budget process; the value that is withdrawn by these non-cash items is undoubtedly regressive.
The non-cash items pay for education—everything from Home-Start to universities and research. Cuts in these areas will hit poor people who have to go through state education and use things such as Home-Start. They will come from policing and justice. Yes, some efficiency will be available, but there will also be less policing and fewer justice facilities. They will come from social services such as home helps and respite care—the things that support lonely older and poorer people. They will come from programmes to protect the environment and from the arts, culture and sport. They will come from transport, which needs revenue support to maintain services to all our citizens and specialist support for the bus pass scheme so valued by our older citizens.
This Budget and its consequences in spending cuts will make our nation less secure. It will hit the poor and weakest most. It will leave society as a whole poorer and more fractured. It will leave it a less happy society, attacking those things that cause society to be at peace with itself. History tells us that, once the Tories start cutting, they will not stop. Sadly, these damaging measures may not achieve the Tories’ ultimate goal of tax cuts for the better-off because that depends on an economic recovery. This Budget and Finance Bill make recovery less likely. Without sustained recovery, no significant group of citizens in the country can achieve significant improvement in their material well-being. That is how this Finance Bill should be judged.
Lord Razzall
My Lords, I rise in support of the coalition’s Budget proposals although, as the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, has indicated, it is immaterial whether or not I do as this is a money Bill and we can only talk to it, not vote on it. I rise to support it as the relevant Liberal Democrat spokesman; I am not part of the Government but am in the coalition. This is probably the first Budget to emerge from a coalition since the 1930s. Apart from trying to provide stability for our government, one reason why the Liberal Democrats went into the coalition was to see which of our measures could be implemented by the coalition agreement and what our track record would be, having implemented the sort of policies on which we fought the election.
Of course, no one will know what went on within the Cabinet rooms in the Treasury when the Budget was agreed; nor indeed will we know until we see everyone’s memoirs, which I suspect will not be rushed out quite as quickly as those of the noble Lord, Lord Mandelson. However, looking at the proposals in the Finance Bill and the related announcements, there are clearly some issues where the Liberal Democrat members won the relevant arguments. I suspect that there would not be the proposed bank levy, on which we campaigned during the election, without the influence of the Liberal Democrats, and, bearing in mind the hostility that came from certain elements of the Tory party against an increase in capital gains tax, I suspect that the proposals to increase capital gains tax enshrined in this Bill came from the arguments raised by the Liberal Democrats. As noble Lords will know, we attacked over a period of years the Labour legislation under which, to coin a phrase, many of the rich paid less in capital gains tax compared with the income tax paid by those who cleaned their offices. As the Minister indicated, the coalition Government have taken the first steps to eliminate from tax altogether people with an income of under £10,000, and, as he has indicated today, those proposals are part of a process which the coalition has agreed will continue throughout the period of the Government. Most importantly, we have long advocated the restoration of the earnings link on pensions—something that Labour has always resisted—and that link is now being restored.
I have said what I agree with in the Budget and have referred to the legislation that reflects Liberal Democrat policies. However, I think that the role of the Liberal Democrats in your Lordships’ House is also to question the coalition about areas at which the Government need to look carefully. Taking up the point that the Minister made regarding the fairness of the Budget, undoubtedly both parties in the coalition have tried to demonstrate that this Budget is fair across all elements of society. However, there is no doubt that there are issues here, one of which was touched on in the intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Lea of Crondall. The Budget briefing indicates that the package mitigates,
“the impact on the most vulnerable in society”,
and that fairness will be achieved by sharing the impact across all income deciles—a wonderful Treasury phrase. It claims that, while the bottom 20 per cent will lose, on average, 0.9 per cent of income, the top 20 per cent will lose 2 per cent. However, as always, the devil is in the detail, and Robert Chote, the head of the IFS, has said that the problem is that that does not take into account alterations in welfare benefits. If the coalition is to claim that this is a fair Budget, the Government need to look at how the Treasury models the impact of the reductions in taxation at the bottom end and plugs in the impact of the loss in welfare benefits. I certainly urge the Government to do that.
A number of right wing newspapers have trumpeted the impact of reductions in housing benefit, and there have been horrendous stories of people getting hundreds of thousands of pounds in housing benefit in the wealthier parts of London; but as the noble Lord, Lord Best, indicated in the debate on Thursday, that is just the tip of the iceberg of the issue and the proposals to cut housing benefit could bear down particularly on the unemployed in London and the south-east. Why should we attempt to make life tougher for the unemployed? As some of these measures will require legislation, I urge the coalition Government to have a look at the detail in order to see the extent to which these problems can be ameliorated.
The elephant in the room, which the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, touched on, is what will happen in the comprehensive spending review in October. We are all aware that the Finance Bill and the Budget proposals have, in a sense, a relatively small impact compared with the CSR. I am sure that the Liberal Democrat Members of the Government will be arguing strongly with the Tories that—whatever happens in the CSR, and clearly there will be significant cuts—we should endeavour to ensure that they do not bear unfairly on those in our society who are less able to cope.
One point which nobody has touched on yet is the fact that managing economic policy is not just about fiscal policy or public expenditure; there is also the whole area of monetary policy, which has now been handed over to the Bank of England. I refer to a point which a former member of the Monetary Policy Committee raised today in the New Statesman. Will the Minister indicate whether, if the MPC were to lose control of its senses and significantly raise interest rates, tightening monetary policy at the wrong moment, the Government would not rule out exercising Section 17 of the relevant legislation, which allows the Chancellor of the Exchequer to overrule the committee? Although it looks like that will not be necessary, it would greatly comfort those of us who follow these matters to know that that would not be ruled out.
I listen with absolute fascination to what the Labour Party has to say on the Budget, the Finance Bill and the Government’s current economic policy. Let us look first at the point that the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, made on VAT. Not only did Alistair Darling indicate that he had been in favour of an increase in VAT when he appeared on “The Daily Politics” and “The Andrew Marr Show”; the third man has indicated it as well. In his book, he said:
“Alistair’s final pre-election PBR was due to be delivered on December 9 ... he told me his proposed surprise announcements would reduce the bill for basic-rate taxpayers … here was the shock—to balance these moves he was minded not only to restore VAT to its previous level of 17.5 per cent, but … even to 19 per cent”.
“I was impressed”, said the third man:
“These were exactly the sort of hard choices that would enable us to regain the initiative … Gordon … vetoed [it], point blank”.
Alistair Darling floated a VAT increase before the March 2010 Budget, and again Gordon Brown vetoed it. Alistair Darling disclosed that on “The Andrew Marr Show”, but he had also done so on 13 July on “The Daily Politics”, when Andrew Neil asked him whether he had considered an increase in VAT, which Gordon Brown was against. Alistair Darling said:
“This is public knowledge. It’s well known that there was this difference between us”.
So, on the question of VAT, the Labour Party really should keep silent.
Let us consider Labour’s record. Labour has left this country with the second largest deficit in Europe. On the OBR’s forecast, the UK deficit will be 10.1 per cent of GDP in 2010-11. That is higher than France, at 8 per cent, Germany, at 5 per cent, Japan, at 6.7 per cent, and—would you believe it?—Greece and Portugal, the two weak members of the euro zone, at 9.3 per cent and 8.5 per cent respectively. Under Labour the UK has had the deepest recession on record, and the longest recession in the G20. Labour cannot deny that. There have been six consecutive quarters of negative growth, and no other country has had that. There is also no doubt that the Labour Party was planning cuts just as large as those which the coalition Government are proposing. The IFS has indicated that on Labour’s own Budget plans we would have to have cuts of 25.4 per cent to non-protected areas. Those are huge cuts which Labour was committed to bringing in but which it was not prepared to disclose in the run-up to the election. As I said in the debate on the gracious Speech, to misquote Attlee on Laski: a period of silence from the Labour Party on this issue would not come amiss.
Lord Stern of Brentford
My Lords, many of the challenges we face in the world economy in the coming years are structural and profound. These include high public deficits in some countries and major imbalances in savings and investments with correspondingly large external surpluses or deficits in key economies of the world. Both can feed, and have fed, instability. Over this decade, we will continue to see fundamental changes in the international division of labour, which will imply great industrial change and some dislocation in both the rich and the poor world, and our international financial and economic system will have to change to reflect the new realities. Still more profound is the necessary acceleration of the energy and industrial revolution, which will be not only innovative, creative and dynamic but critical to our building of the low-carbon economy which is essential for managing climate change. If we see these related challenges together, we will do much better on each than if we try to tackle them one by one or in sequence. This decade in the world economy is of special importance. In the UK, we must close our deficits while avoiding tipping back into recession. We must come out of this recession by laying the foundations of long-term and sustainable growth and not, as we did in much of the world, including the UK, a decade ago, by sowing the seeds of the next bubble.
Today, in the long-term and international context I have described, I want to consider briefly three particular related issues that confront us now and which are, or should be, central to our consideration of the UK’s fiscal policy and the Finance Bill. These are first, revenue forecasting, secondly, the pace and flexibility with which we attempt to close the deficit and thirdly, tax reform.
I must declare an interest in the economics of public policy. I am currently professor of economics at the LSE and have been a professor of economics, specialising in public policy, for more than three decades. For 10 years, I was first chief economist of the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development and then chief economist and senior vice president of the World Bank, interacting with finance Ministers around the world. Closer to home, and of direct relevance to what I have to say today, I was from 2003 to 2007 head of the Government Economic Service in Her Majesty's Treasury, and for the first nine months of that time, I was Second Permanent Secretary of the Treasury with particular responsibility for the revenue side of the public finances, before I turned in my next two and a half years as a civil servant to write two major reports, the report of the Commission for Africa and the review of the economics of climate change. I was indeed fortunate in my assignments. I returned to the LSE three years ago.
On revenue forecasting, I must welcome the establishment of the Office for Budget Responsibility. My brief experience in this area at the Treasury in 2003-04 underlined very strongly the importance of independence and of transparency. In my view, in the Treasury at that time, there was a lack of clarity in setting out the assumptions, an absence of clear models of revenue and excessive use of hopeful judgment on future revenues. One result was that we went into the crisis in 2007 with inflated forecasts of structural revenues, and thus inflated expenditures which had expanded to meet the anticipated, or rather “wished for”, revenue, and with a substantial structural deficit.
There were some positive moves on the revenue front at that time. We brought Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs together—one or two centuries too late, but better late than never—and provided much greater clarity for the formation of tax policy across the Treasury and HMRC. But in my few months working on revenue, I was not successful in bringing more rigour to revenue forecasting. Hence, my emphasis now on clarity, transparency and independence.
We must not, however, confuse independence with isolation or incoherence. It is important that the OBR is well informed about the analysis and sense of direction on policy of Her Majesty’s Treasury and the Bank of England. Independence of the OBR is perfectly consistent with discussion on analysis and policy with these two key institutions. Indeed, all three will function the better for this interaction. Bank of England independence is not compromised by constructive and detailed discussion with Her Majesty’s Treasury, which during my time was a much weaker discussion than it should have been. The reluctance to engage was not for the most part in my view on the side of the Bank of England.
I have three questions on the OBR for the Government, to which I hope that the Minister can respond. First, will he encourage the OBR to illustrate its value-added by examining how far its methods would produce different results from the less transparent methods of the past? This would be very helpful in assessing the contribution of the OBR. Secondly, will he encourage the Government to emphasise still more strongly the uncertainty surrounding all revenue forecasts and thus uncertainty in deficit forecasts? To be slightly nerdy, we should welcome the appendix on fan charts in last month’s pre-Budget forecast of the OBR. Thirdly, will he consider establishing an independent board for the OBR, advisory or otherwise, which could provide guidance to the chair of the OBR and play a role in defending its independence, as Sir Michael Scholar has so admirably done for UK statistics?
Finally, on revenue forecasting, I should like to pay tribute to the outstanding work of Sir Alan Budd in establishing the OBR so effectively and so rapidly. I have known for some months of his clear intention to serve for only a few months as its head. This was also very clear to senior Treasury officials and to Ministers, as I am sure that the noble Lord will confirm. Thus, any speculation from the press and elsewhere to the contrary is completely misplaced.
My second issue is the pace of closing the deficit. I fear that this is a subject that sometimes descends to camps and slogans. If I said that the entire structural deficit should be closed in one year, you would think that I was mad. If I said that it should be closed in a decade, you would doubt my seriousness. It is clear that we must discuss whether it should be targeted over four, five, or six years. There is nothing in the subject of economics that allows us to be very precise on this. Thus it makes no sense to denounce those who rightly draw attention to the risk of recession as narrow Keynesians who care little about budget responsibility and the future servicing of debts, just as it makes no sense to label those who rightly emphasise the dangers of large deficits and ever-increasing debt to GDP ratios as Hooverians intent on repeating the mistakes of the great depression.
Let us recognise not only that we shall have to set clear intentions on deficit reduction but also that we must feel our way on the risks of recession. These risks are very real. We will probably see strong growth in China and India, but while they are around 36 per cent or 37 per cent of the world’s population, they are around only 10 per cent of the world’s economy, although somewhat larger on a purchasing power parity basis. The US and Europe are far more important in the global economy, constituting around 45 per cent of the total. More than half our exports are to Europe where there seems to be a clear intent to go for a strong and co-ordinated fiscal consolidation with significant risks to overall demand. As Ben Bernanke said last Wednesday, the future of the US economy is “unusually uncertain”. While we have in the UK the advantage of a flexible exchange rate there can be no guarantee that rising exports and private investment will replace the demand reduction in the UK from fiscal consolidation.
It is difficult to be precise about the risks of recession in the UK, but they are not small. Let us recognise both that we will learn more in the coming months and the next year or two, and that if we fall into recession we risk not only the severe human cost of unemployment but, via the automatic stabilisers, raising the deficits we are trying to reduce. We do not know how much capacity or underlying potential have changed as a result of the crisis and recession. It is thus difficult to distinguish cyclical from structural deficits. As I have said, there are strong risks to export demand and we do not know what may happen to consumer and investor confidence. It is absurd to pretend otherwise.
Thus, while agreeing with the Government and their predecessors on the importance of cutting the deficit, I would like the Minister’s assurance that the Government will keep the risk of recession under review and stand ready to adjust their fiscal stance if necessary. While recognising that the Bank of England has a strong role to play in demand management, it cannot be left solely to the Bank. This is not lack of resolution or anticipating U-turns; it is sound economics in the face of risk and uncertainty and it is common sense.
As to tax reform, at a time when strong shorter-run decisions are necessary on the public finances, we must also recognise that tax reform is about the medium and long run. Let us not make the urgent need for extra revenue and expenditure control an excuse for yet more incremental tinkering that is not well thought through in terms of the coherence of the tax system as a whole. Tax systems suffer badly from the creeping approach to policy. Each new initiative might have had some plausibility at the time, but we now have a system with a set of major defects. These include: disincentives to work for many at the bottom end of the scale; incoherence between the various forms of personal income tax, corporate income tax and national insurance; no clear rationale on the taxation of wealth and savings; and inefficient and inconsistent ways of pursuing distributional objectives. The tax treatment of housing is a special mess. Now is the time for a strong move to correct the great market failures associated with the environment and climate change. With green taxes and other measures, including the green investment bank, we can simultaneously raise revenue, help markets work better and foster a new and cleaner source of growth. This is surely what our American friends would call a no-brainer.
There is not time to develop these points in detail. I recommend to noble Lords the work of the Mirrlees review from the Institute for Fiscal Studies which is scheduled to be published in September this year. Much of this analysis is already available and there is a clear discussion by Paul Johnson, a co-editor of the Mirrlees Review, in his lecture at the LSE last month which is available on the IFS website. Three decades after the important and influential Meade review on the tax system, it provides a most valuable analysis and sense of direction.
Let me give two examples from indirect taxation. First, the base of the VAT could be substantially broadened and the extra revenue used to more than compensate, as we should, those on low income who are most affected. Secondly, a financial activities tax, as suggested by the IMF, could be structured in a way that would be economically equivalent to a VAT on this currently exempt sector. I could go on to give examples concerned with income and other taxes and benefits.
There is also much analysis to draw upon from international institutions in other countries—for example, the expert groups of the OECD and the Fiscal Affairs Department of the IMF. At the request of an earlier Chancellor, I ran, as Second Permanent Secretary of the Treasury, a series of internal seminars on tax reform in the first half of 2004 and provided the summary paper drawing conclusions for the Chancellor in June of that year. I quite properly left my only copy with the senior management of the Treasury when I left in the summer of 2007, and I am sure they will have retained—at least, I hope they will have retained—their own copies. I hope they find the study useful.
Now is the time for a careful and considered discussion of the reform of tax and benefits in this country. I trust that the Government will play a strong, analytical and thoughtful role in this discussion and that we will see the fruits in terms of action in the coming two or three years. I seek the Minister’s assurances on this point. There is so much that we could do at this time of reform and reappraisal to move towards a system which is simpler, more equitable and more efficient. Furthermore, it could foster the entrepreneurship and creativity to drive the new forms of growth that are vital to our nation and the world in this decade of fundamental change.
Policing
(13 years, 9 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville-Jones)
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I would like to repeat a Statement made earlier today in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department.
“Mr Speaker, with permission, I would like to make a Statement about a consultation paper I am publishing today. Called Policing in the 21st Century: Reconnecting Police and the People, it sets out the most radical reforms to policing in at least 50 years. For this Government, police reform is a priority, not just because we inherited the worst public finances of any major economy, but because for far too long the police have become disconnected from the communities they serve. They have been bogged down by bureaucracy, and they have answered to distant politicians instead of the people. Crime remains too high, too many families and communities suffer from anti-social behaviour, and barely half the public are confident that important local issues are dealt with. Meanwhile, the challenges we face have changed. Terrorism and the growth in serious organised crime and cybercrime all require new approaches that cross not just police force boundaries but international borders.
First, we will transfer power back to the people. We will introduce directly elected police and crime commissioners by 2012. The commissioners will set the police budget, determine police force priorities, and have the power to hire, and when necessary fire, their chief constable. To help the public hold their local police force to account, we will publish local crime data and mandate beat meetings so that people can challenge the performance of their neighbourhood policing teams.
Secondly, we will return professional responsibility to police officers. Front-line staff will no longer be form writers but crime fighters, freed up from bureaucracy and central guidance and trusted to get on with their jobs. We have scrapped the policing pledge. We have got rid of the confidence target. We will restore police discretion over charging decisions for particular offences. We will limit the reporting requirements for stop and search, and we will scrap the stop form in its entirety.
Thirdly, we will shift the focus of government. As the Home Affairs Select Committee noted during the last Parliament, the last Government tried to micromanage local policing but failed to support forces effectively on national issues. We will build on the work of the Serious Organised Crime Agency to create a more powerful National Crime Agency, which will tackle organised crime and protect our borders. We will phase out the National Policing Improvement Agency and scrap Labour’s plans for a statutory police senior appointments panel. We will discuss with the Association of Chief Police Officers the way forward in its role as a professional leadership body.
Fourthly, we will make the police more efficient at force, regional and national levels so that front-line local policing can be sustained. To this end, we are already consulting separately on police procurement regulations to get better value for taxpayers’ money.
Fifthly, we will unleash the power of community pride and civic responsibility so that people can come together to cut crime. We will look for a cost-effective way to establish 101 as a single police non-emergency number so that it is easier to report crime and anti-social behaviour, and we will do more to encourage active citizens to become special constables, community crime fighters and members of neighbourhood watch groups.
There is nothing inevitable about crime. That is why we are determined to press ahead with these reforms. They demonstrate our determination to undo the damage of the Labour years, to put the people back in charge, and to rid our communities of crime, anti-social behaviour and disorder. I commend this Statement to the House.”
That concludes the Statement.
Lord Brett
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for repeating the Statement made by the Home Secretary in another place and for her letter notifying me of the review and inviting views.
Passing over the pejorative paragraph, repeated by the Government ad nauseam, about public finances, I am struck by the rhetorical style of the Statement, with phrases such as,
“power back to the people”.
I know that the Minister bears no resemblance to Wolfie Smith, but the Home Secretary’s call sounds to me more like that of the Tooting Popular Front than of responsible government. I refer particularly to the proposal to legislate to remove police authorities in favour of elected police commissioners with wide powers. This is done in the name of accountability. It is backed up by the police being required to publish local crime figures and data, and the mandating of meetings so that people can meet, and challenge the performance of, their neighbourhood policing teams. Is that revolutionary action? Well, not quite.
The Minister tells us that the Government have scrapped the policing pledge. I am sure that that was said in the other place with a flourish. Let us examine what has been scrapped. Let us look at policing pledge number 9, which states:
“We will arrange regular public meetings to agree your priorities at least once a month, giving you a chance to meet your local team with other members of your community. These will include opportunities such as surgeries, street briefings and mobile police station visits which will be arranged to meet local needs and requirements. We will provide monthly updates on progress and on local crime and policing issues. This will include the provision of crime maps, information on specific crimes and what happened to those brought to justice, details of what action we and our partners are taking to make your neighbourhood safer and information on how your force is performing”.
The pledge now contains an update on progress and meetings with local representatives. Therefore, what the Statement promises is already in place in the policing pledge, which the Home Secretary has chosen to scrap.
I turn to elected police commissioners, which the Statement says is about accountability to the public. Let us see how it impacts on the public. What is the current level of accountability? I commend to all Members of your Lordships' House an excellent debate last Thursday on policing and crime rates proposed by my noble friend Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate. He made clear all the areas of accountability that the police already have. Consultation on local policing, as set out in the policing pledge, is now apparently to be reinstated.
The issue is therefore one of scrapping the police authorities, which are currently made up of elected council members from all the major parties, independent councillors and independent appointed members. Their role is to be invested in a police commissioner, who, unless he or she has a wide-reaching consultative body of some kind, will inevitably narrow the consideration of public accountability that now exists in law enforcement and local government.
A number of people have voiced to me their fears of political interference and the potential for cronyism and corruption among elected police commissioners. Why should that be? In an elected police authority, which comprises members of different political parties, people will express different views about policing. They will be tackling the same issues. There is no evidence that that has led to anything other than consensus policing, which has assisted chief constables in meeting their operational requirements while enforcing the accountability that we want. No one in the police service, in police authorities or in local authorities has any great confidence in this proposal.
If the overwhelming response to the consultation on elected police commissioners is negative, as it was when a similar question was asked in a survey in 2004, will the Minister abandon the proposal? The Local Government Association says that elected police commissioners will cost £50 million. What is the Minister’s estimate of the cost? Will not the abolition of the police authorities remove a reservoir of knowledge and experience that no single individual can replace?
If I were to stand for police commissioner for Cumbria, in whatever competition there was—and I buy completely the idea that there should be no interference in the policing part of the role of the chief constable—I would get elected by making promises. That is how people get elected. Those promises might include a rebalance between rural and urban policing in Cumbria. The chief constable is very clear that with the reduced resources he is likely to have, the way to do it is the way he is doing it, so I have a problem at re-election of presenting how I delivered my promises. That at least has major potential for political interference. If I do not interfere, how do I deliver the promises on which I have been elected against whatever party or non-party opposition that has stood in the same competition?
On the SOCA proposal, the coalition agreement talks of refocusing SOCA, not eliminating it. Is this a coalition U-turn? A press briefing over the weekend talked of creating a British FBI. Is this the Government’s intention? This has been denied in the past and there have been very clear views from senior police that that is not what is required. A good friend of mine with the metropolitan police in Washington DC said to me in the late 1980s that FBI stood for “famous but incompetent”. When I questioned that, he said that he was referring not to the ability of FBI agents but to everything from what you might call turf wars to the unwillingness of certain parts of local law enforcement and the agency to accept the authority of the other. There are major problems attached to this, and I would be very interested to hear more on that subject.
We also hear that there is to be an enhanced border police force. Is this to replace the UKBA? Is this going to impact on numbers? It is very odd because in the debate last Thursday, and indeed in every previous attempt by this side in both this House and the other place, we have tried to persuade Ministers to admit simply that with the kind of cuts that they are contemplating, there will be fewer police on the beat and fewer resources available to maintain the present successful battle against crime. When I say “successful”, I agree with the noble Baroness that it can always be improved, but it is not a damaged record. It is the best record for 30 years, the level of confidence among the public is the best in 30 years, and there is the least lack of confidence in the ability to deal with social issues and anti-social behaviour. It is therefore a rhetorical, Wolfie Smith-type Statement, and it would be better if we dealt with it in a much more serious manner.
We are making major moves ahead of the review that we are told will take place in October, so I ask yet again: is that going to reduce the number of front-line police officers or not?
Baroness Neville-Jones
My Lords, 68 per cent of the public in recent surveys support the idea of having elected commissioners, and I hear what the noble Lord says about the way in which the police authorities have performed. I do not think that the Government are suggesting that the police authorities have done a sustainedly bad job, but they are invisible to the local population. One of the main objects of this exercise is to reconnect the police force of the locality with the people of the locality, and we believe that the way to do that is to have an official who has to account to the people. We are trying to get away from the police accounting bureaucratically upwards instead of being the servants of their local populations. With all the measures that we are trying to put in place, including the beat meetings and the crime and policing panels, it is not true to say that there will be no checks and balances in the system. The police commissioner will himself be answerable to these panels. They have the right to challenge his decisions. They cannot override them, but they can certainly conduct dialogue in the name of the local people, so you will have local discussion. There is probably a philosophical difference between my party and the other side of the House on the need to reconnect authority over the police to the local community.
Lord Brett
The noble Baroness makes a great play of the lack of connection. We have had elected and appointed members on police authorities for a number of years. Does she have information on a failure of people coming forward to be independent members of police authorities? I happen to know that in Cumbria there were 100 applicants last time for what I think were two or three posts. Is there evidence to sustain the argument that there is a disconnect, other than in surveys?
Baroness Neville-Jones
Only 8 per cent of wards have a councillor on their local police authority. It seems to me that there is a much more slender connection between local accountability and the people than is suggested by that kind of assertion. Police commissioners are much more directly responsible and accountable to the locals than a police authority, which has relatively few councillors among its number, with an election behind them.
The noble Lord made a number of other points. The general proposition that we are putting forward here is that accountability is not to and for government but towards local communities. As the Home Affairs Committee said in its report during the last Parliament, the previous Government succeeded in micromanaging too much local policing while neglecting some of the national issues.
On the national side, the noble Lord asked a number of questions about the nature of the National Crime Agency. The agency will be a much more powerful body than we have at the moment. It will be at the centre and will take issues of national importance. It will perform in two areas. One is serious organised crime. It will build on what SOCA has done and achieved and will retain SOCA’s facilities, including its intelligence-gathering capability.
At the same time, the agency will also have control over the border police force and will direct a chief constable directed at that. The border police force will sit alongside the UKBA, which will not be incorporated into it. We have decided that for a number of reasons, including the need for economy. Also, with the Olympics in sight, it is not sensible to have vast structural change at this juncture. It therefore seems more sensible to us to have, overarching the agency, a strategy to which the agency will work. The agency will then be responsible for the part of the strategy over which it has control: serious organised crime and border policing. The UKBA will, however, be tied into that overarching strategy as well. We will therefore have a single strategy for border control, part of which will lie with the National Crime Agency—that is to say, SOCA and the functions that it performs, plus the functions that will be created for the border police command. The UKBA will work alongside the border command within the framework of that overriding and overarching strategy. The object of that exercise is to create more coherent control of the borders without resorting to excessive expense in an era in which that is not going to be possible.
I am sure that the noble Lord asked me some other questions, which I would be happy to answer; I am looking at my notes.
The noble Lord asked if it was going to be a British FBI. No, it is not going to be a British FBI. We want to try to ensure that the National Crime Agency has broader powers, but it will not have a FBI-style role. All the powers it exercises will in the end also link back to the constabularies. Part of the role of the National Crime Agency will also be to link into the constabularies when it comes to, say, level 2 crime. So it will not be divorced from the role of the 43 police forces round the country, but it will give a strategic override to that function.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, perhaps I may ask the Minister two questions. First, can she say something about the role of local authorities? They have crime and disorder responsibilities and will need to be linked into the new arrangements. Secondly, I ask for an assurance that giving the new National Crime Agency some border responsibilities does not portray a mindset that immigration and crime are necessarily and inevitably linked.
Baroness Neville-Jones
We intend to consult on the role of local authorities and how they will link into the police and crime commissioners. I take the point about the new agency. The fact that the UKBA will retain its own separate role alongside the border police agency indicates that we recognise that there are border control functions that are unrelated to and do not concern themselves with crime.
Lord Dear
My Lords, I should first remind the House that I served for more than 30 years in police forces in this country—in one of the smallest and, indeed, in the two biggest forces. I also currently hold three non-executive chairmanships of companies that have some sort of interface with the police service, although I hasten to add not directly related to the issues that have been mentioned today.
I welcome this Statement. I should say immediately and it will not be any surprise to those listening that I respect and greatly admire the police service, both for its history and for what it does today. However, there is no doubt in my mind that there has been a need for a top-to-bottom, root-and-branch overhaul of the functions of the police service for at least the last two decades and probably longer. These proposals address only some of those issues, but it is I believe a good start and I look for more to come in the future.
First, one needs to recognise that the police have slipped quite badly in terms of public confidence, and a good deal of the blame for that must come from the issue of bureaucracy in general, in the broadest sense. About 10 days ago Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Constabulary, in conjunction with the Audit Commission, published a damning report on the back-office function of the police. It has grown to enormous proportions. It has been indicated that that, coupled with the growth of specialist groups, must change. Therefore, the moves in the Statement today to support a retreat from micromanagement and to cut central targets have to be applauded.
So far as the central crime agency—
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I remind you that the rules on Statements apply. People should make short interventions in order to leave time for others to come in.
Lord Dear
As for the National Crime Agency, I support what is being said there. I have supported border policing, working in conjunction with UKBA, for some time.
The nub of the whole problem for onlookers is with elected commissioners, and I seek two reassurances from the Minister. In principle, I give qualified support to that proposal, which amounts to a revamp or modernisation of current police authority structures, which have stood the test of time for the past 50 years. Times have changed and this may be the time to look again at the role of police authorities, but the devil is in the detail. I ask the Minister to comment on the issue of hire and fire. Hiring will need very careful handling at a time when the whole question of police leadership is under the microscope and the need is even greater to ensure that there is selection of the right person for the right job and that careers are managed not only for the benefit of the individual but to the advantage of the community. On the issue of firing I seek a very firm reassurance from the Minister. If there is the power to fire, reserve powers must be given to the Home Secretary to endorse that, or the chief officer will be at the mercy of single-issue politics and extremist groups. Comment has been made about operational independence not being damaged, and I accept that, but I seek reassurance, particularly on the issue of hire and fire. Overall, I welcome the Statement and look forward to the debates that will follow.
Baroness Neville-Jones
On the question of hire and fire, the noble Lord is right to say that those powers are contained in the proposed remit of the police and crime commissioner, who is himself potentially subject to recall. It is not the case that any police commissioner would be able to exercise his powers unreasonably or arbitrarily without himself thereby being called to account. The whole point of having him—I mean, these individuals; I hope that there will be some women, too—accountable to the local electorate is precisely so that unreasonable behaviour can be checked. I see no reason why an elected official in such a position should behave unreasonably any more than any other elected official.
I take note of what the noble Lord says about reserve powers, and will take that back to the Home Secretary.
Lord Harris of Haringey
I declare an interest as a member of the Metropolitan Police Authority, which I understand is to be abolished under these proposals. Could I ask about this brave new world of the police and crime commissioners? In parenthesis, calling somebody a crime commissioner implies that they commission crime, which seems a slightly strange thing for the Government to want to do. Given that the commissioners will apply to the forces that provide neighbourhood policing, which is essentially visible to local communities and for which there are already substantial arrangements for local dialogue with local communities, why are other areas of policing not to have the benefit—if benefit it be—of having their own police and crime commissioners? Why, for instance, is there no police and crime commissioner for the British Transport Police or the Civil Nuclear Constabulary or the Ministry of Defence Police—or, for that matter, the City of London Police? The Civil Nuclear Constabulary and the Ministry of Defence police are extremely heavily armed and the work they do raises important issues of public accountability. The City of London has its own slightly different means of democratic control from anywhere else. Why is there not that clarity? Could the Minister also tell the House about the accountability arrangements for the new national agency, given, again, that this will have very important but not essentially visible responsibilities for policing? These are precisely the areas in which strong, robust and transparent accountability mechanisms are necessary.
Baroness Neville-Jones
The noble Lord raised the question of other functions not covered by the police and crime commissioners and he is quite right to do so. The proposals make a distinction between those issues where we believe that local accountability is of the essence, in the area of neighbourhood and constabulary activity. Where we think that the functions have a much more national character—and certainly the police commissioners themselves must contribute to efficient national policing by collaboration—such as in counterterrorism, or in the powers that are going to be grouped under the National Crime Agency, different arrangements are needed. We will certainly have to put in place, subject to further consultation, the nature of the accountability arrangements that will be required. There will certainly be accountability arrangements but they have not yet been spelled out. Our purpose today is to make it clear that lying at the core of this is the need for accountability of local and neighbourhood policing.
On the British Transport Police, there is indeed a series of other protective policing powers and activities which are not covered by today’s proposal. We are looking at the rationality of present structures in that area with a view to seeing whether we cannot make them more efficient. Again, we will have to deal, in that instance also, with the question of accountability.
Lord Martin of Springburn
My Lords, as someone who has served both as a councillor and an elected Member of Parliament for 37 years, I always felt that it was the chief constable who was accountable to local people and to his police region. If the local people were displeased about his or her performance, they were not long in making that known. Can the Minister check her facts on the make-up of police authorities? It has been my understanding that there is a large proportion of elected councillors on those boards.
Baroness Neville-Jones
The noble Lord says that chief constables are accountable. Yes, but it has to be said that police authorities as they stand at the moment had the money and the strategy and the problem that we have at the moment is that they are insufficiently accountable. I do not think it follows that because we are putting in place police and crime commissioners, the chief constable is therefore relieved of accountability. That is most certainly not the case. His accountability will be for the efficiency of his operations and he will retain his operational independence.
As for my facts on the elective elements within police authorities, it is certainly the case that each authority has 50 per cent of councillors, but it is still a small number nationally, and at ward level it is only 8 per cent.
Baroness Scott of Needham Market
Perhaps the Minister can clarify the expression in the Statement that the new commissioner will “set” the budget. Do the Government really mean set the budget, or do they mean manage the budget within its existing parameters? For example, do they intend to retain the precepting arrangements whereby it is the local authority which levies it? If they do, how can this flexibility be exercised within the context of a council tax freeze, which would impact on police spending as well as local government spending?
Baroness Neville-Jones
My understanding is that the police commissioner will set the priorities for the budget and, indeed, I think that he does have a hand in the setting of the precept. I will have to write to the noble Baroness about other detail, because I would not want to mislead her.
Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen
Will the noble Baroness answer the question asked by my noble friend Lord Brett about the cost of elections for police commissioners?
Baroness Neville-Jones
Clearly, elections cost money, but it is difficult to know before we have had one what they are likely to cost, although we will certainly make an estimate. The money will have to come out of the finance that is available to the Home Office for policing, but we believe that this is good value if the public are to have better control. Given the totality of the package that we are putting forward, with our determination to increase value for money, to drive down duplication and to improve procurement, for example, which at the moment is lamentably fragmented, duplicative and therefore costly, we believe that, in the end, this will not be a more costly way of running the police service than the current one.
Lord Stevens of Kirkwhelpington
My Lords, I declare an interest as the previous Prime Minister’s senior adviser on international security and the chairman of the committee set up by David Cameron to look at border policing. I have two points. First, this is a consultation paper, so other people’s views will be looked at and considered. I should like to see the evidence, if I may—no doubt the House would, too—showing how the police authorities have been a failure. The bottom line is that, having been a policeman for 46 years and inspector of constabulary for two years, during which time I was at the appointment of 12 chief constables, I have seen no evidence that police authorities are a failure—quite the opposite. When I was Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, I thought that the police authority was a very effective, although sometimes hurtful, reminder of what one’s duties were. I should like the consultation to take account of why it is thought that the police authorities in this country, linked in with local authorities, have been a failure.
Secondly, it will come as no surprise to the House to hear that I am totally in favour of where we are going with border policing and the amalgamation of some agencies that are seen to be separate in terms of where they are. The committee, which is made up of 14 people, has met for nine months to a year, during which time there has been an absolute need to firm up the borders of this country in every aspect. Yes, we are hard up for money and have to work in the financial situation in which we are, but does the Minister agree that we must work towards having a proper border policing agency as soon as we can and that that agency must be beefed up by a more effective Serious Organised Crime Agency?
Baroness Neville-Jones
The noble Lord makes two points, the first about police authorities and the second about the border policing arrangements. As I said at the outset, I do not think that the Government are claiming that police authorities have been a failure in the sense that they have not been able to exercise functions properly. The point that the Government are making is that the authorities are not visible and, in that sense, properly accountable to local people. Only 7 per cent of people know what the authorities do or have ever heard of them. Some authorities, although not all, perhaps do not rate as more than adequate. We are saying that we can do better. The whole drift of the Government’s policies is to return authority to local people and to make those who have considerable control over the condition of their daily lives more directly accountable to them. One of the ways of doing that is to give both power and authority to somebody whose job is, in the end, owed to the people who put him in that position. There is legitimate room for difference in this area and we will certainly want to consult on the functions of the police authorities and the contributions that they have made over time to see whether some of those aspects can be properly incorporated in the role of the police commissioners. However, we are determined to put police commissioners in place.
The other point that the noble Lord raised was about border policing. He asked whether what I had outlined was the last word. I do not think it is but it is certainly what we think it is sensible to do now. If we manage to get an effective strategy in place—one that unites the functions of the border policing command, which brings together several agencies which are separate at the moment—and, in turn, ensure that that strategy also incorporates the role of the UKBA, which will, however, retain its own functions, we will move a good way down the road of creating a single strategy for border policing. This is the first important thing to do. I am sure that, in the process of doing that, we will find that there are further improvements that we can make.
Turning to SOCA, or the functions performed by SOCA at the moment, I do not know what this part of the agency will eventually be called but those functions will also be closely tied into what we need to do at the border. It is very clear that we must be able to police serious organised crime at level 2. There must be good connections between the constabularies and that part of policing at the national level which is responsible for organised crime. However, we must also be able to operate at the border because of its international dimensions. We need a tight strategy which brings all these elements together.
Finance Bill
Lord Northbrook
My Lords, I welcome the emergency Budget as a whole. The emergency that we face is that, as the Minister said, one pound in every four that we spend is being borrowed. I could not quite believe—if I heard correctly—the remark of the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, that Labour policies prevented the UK falling into recession. Under Labour, Britain had the longest and deepest recession on record. Britain has had the longest recession in the G20, with six consecutive quarters of negative growth—more than any other major economy. The coalition has inherited from its predecessor the largest budget deficit of any Government in Europe with the exception of Ireland. This is at the very moment when fear about the sustainability of sovereign debt is the greatest risk to the recovery of European economies.
The second quarter preliminary GDP figures published on Friday show that there is some light at the end of the tunnel, but there is still a need for the strong measures proposed in the Budget. The Office for Budget Responsibility has downgraded the previous Government’s overoptimistic growth forecasts to more sensible figures of 1.2 per cent for 2010 and 2.3 per cent for 2011. It has also increased the estimate of the structural deficit.
The majority of debt reduction measures are to come with proposed spending cuts. I welcome the forecast that public sector net borrowing will decline from the horrendous figure of £149 billion to £37 billion by 2014-15. Taking the consolidation as a whole, Table 1.1 in the Red Book—which, as a whole, seems much more straightforward this year—shows that roughly three-quarters of the total cumulatively will be made up of spending cuts by 2015-16. This is where the challenge comes. Paragraph 1.4 of the Red Book says that once you discount the ring-fenced departments, other departments could see average real cuts to their budgets of around 25 per cent over the four years. This is where the coalition must keep its nerve. There is likely to be strong departmental resistance and special case pleading against the 25 per cent reductions to their budgets. There are also likely to be strikes over the proposed pay freeze and reduced pension arrangements for much of the public sector workforce. The general public must continue to be told why these sacrifices are necessary.
I move on the tax measures proposed in the Budget. On VAT, the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, seems to be unaware of the former Chancellor’s view that VAT had to be raised and has not yet read the third man’s book on the subject. Like Alistair Darling, I understand the need to raise VAT to 20 per cent next January, while not especially welcoming it. I support the new bank levy. Likewise, I back the increase in insurance premium tax. I welcome the reduction in the main rate of corporation tax from 28 per cent to 24 per cent over the next four years, and the plans to reduce from 21 per cent to 20 per cent the small companies corporation tax rather than increase it, as the previous Government proposed, as the Minister stated. I accept the need for an increase in the capital gains tax rate but regret that there is not a lower rate for business assets.
I applaud the increase in the lifetime limit for CGT entrepreneurial relief. However, I feel that it sends the wrong message to our manufacturing companies to cut the annual investment allowance by 75 per cent from 2012-13 and the writing down allowances together with the abolition of the agricultural building allowance to nil by 2011. I declare an interest as a landowner. The situation is well summed up by the accountants Saffery Champness. It says, “It seems that tax relief on investment by businesses is not considered a priority”. How does the reduction in capital allowances square with the Government’s wishes to encourage a more manufacturing-based economy?
In the area of personal tax the situation is more complicated. The 50 per cent higher rate of tax proposed by the previous Government still stands but must be reversed as soon as possible. How much extra revenue does the coalition anticipate it will bring in? With regard to national insurance, despite the current Chancellor’s protestations in the run-up to the election, it is still the case that employer and employee rates are going to rise by 1 per cent with effect from April 2011. This will be mitigated to an extent by the fact that the level at which employers will start to pay NIC will increase by £21 per week above indexation from April 2011. The tax take from national insurance is forecast—per table C11 of the Red Book—to increase from £97 billion in 2008-09 to £128 billion in 2015-16. However, should not the Minister be a little concerned that it sends the wrong signal as a tax on jobs that may hinder the recovery? Would it not have been better to tax alcohol and tobacco more heavily or to consider motorway tolls? But overall, as I said, I support the Government’s decision to take rapid steps to cut the deficit. The dangerous result of doing nothing for a period was demonstrated by what happened in Greece. We could not take the risk of interest rates for our debt rapidly increasing.
Another measure I strongly support is the creation of the Office for Budget Responsibility. This has already brought a more realistic tone to government economic forecasts. However, it must be seen to be independent of the Treasury. First, this means not being in the same building. Secondly, as Sir Alan Budd told the Treasury Select Committee on 20 July, it must be free of ministerial interference. It did not, for instance, look good that the OBR tweaked its budget forecasts at the last minute to erase 175,000 job losses by 2014. Sir Alan also admitted that the OBR does not have its own economic models but uses the Treasury’s. The Treasury Select Committee in a separate report stated:
“It is unfortunate that the independence of the OBR has been called into question. This makes it all the more important to get the structure and the statutory basis of the permanent organisation right, as both the OBR and the Chancellor recognise”.
What progress is being made in finding a new chairman of the OBR?
I welcome another new body set up by the Chancellor, the Office of Tax Simplification. I am particularly pleased that John Whiting, a former tax partner at PWC, has been chosen to lead it. However, two issues are important: first, that it is genuinely independent; and, secondly, that Ministers are prepared to act on its recommendations.
The coalition has produced an interesting document, Tax Policy Making: a New Approach. I highlight two areas here: first, to reconsider the requirement to purchase a compulsory annuity at the age of 75; and, secondly, a review of PAYE to consider how the system could be made easier for employers to operate. My only criticism is that it fails to consider how this House could usefully further scrutinise finance Bills, building on the useful reports of the Economic Affairs sub-committee.
Overall, the emergency Budget puts in place a credible plan as approved by the OECD to eliminate the UK’s structural current budget deficit over the lifetime of this Parliament. The medicine is tough and may dampen growth in the short term but it should help to support a more sustainable recovery in the longer term.
Lord Desai
My Lords, I have been in favour of a serious cut in the budget deficit since before the election. When I said that, I had no idea which Government would be in power so my desire for a budget cut had nothing to do with political preferences. We have heard that in his March Budget, Alistair Darling proposed a time-path of cutting the deficit over the course of five years. We even had a debate in your Lordships’ House in which the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, questioned why the Government had not decided to comply with the Maastricht criteria by 2015. I remember speaking in that debate.
The Chancellor has now proposed his own time-path over the next five years. There are some significant differences but they are less dramatic than people think. It is important to note that we have already had a debate about how soon and how much to cut because of whether the current economy is in a fragile or strong recovery, on the brink of a double-dip recession or whatever. That uncertainty remains despite the fact that for the last three quarters we have had positive growth of output—a small 0.4 per cent in the last quarter of 2009, 0.3 per cent in the first quarter of 2010 and then suddenly 1.1 per cent in the second. We have to average these things out and not take recent numbers all that seriously but there have been three quarters of percentage growth so there is a recovery. We do not know how fragile it is. That is a problem in economics: we do not even know what the recent past is, much less what the future will be.
Given that we have had three quarters of recovery, it is worth examining what the Budget does. It has a mild cut in 2010-11. The numbers are on page 37 of the OBR’s Pre-Budget Report. In table C13 and C14, for 2010-11 the cut is only £3 billion—the current spending is £640 billion as in the Alistair Darling Budget and £637 billion in the Osborne Budget. In terms of investment expenditure, there is a slight difference in the two projections. Alistair Darling projected about 1 per cent real growth in current spending over the next five years. The Chancellor has eliminated that 1 per cent and decided that current spending ought to be constant in real terms.
It is not so much that the cuts in spending will be severe this year and so we may have a double-dip recession, but a political gamble that the size of the cuts grows over the Parliament and that more severe cuts come in the third or fourth year. If the Chancellor wants to a take a political risk, that is his business. As an economist, I note that he has left current spending constant in real terms. That is perhaps the best risk-averse strategy if you are uncertain about growth. If you are pessimistic about growth, it is best to leave current spending constant in real terms so that it grows a little year by year but not much more than that. That requires the Chancellor to do a variety of things, such as freezing public sector pay for those above a certain level, freezing various benefits or indexing them slightly lower, perhaps at CPR rather than RPI, and so on, although I do not wish to go into too much detail on that.
The spending strategy is quite straightforward but current spending should be kept under control. To those who disagree with that and would like spending to be higher, I say that it should be higher only if it is investment spending and not current spending. Even if it were desirable to do so, I do not believe that we would get a revival based on consumption or current spending. A revival has to be based on investment. If the private sector is not ready to invest, the Government can borrow in benevolent surroundings but only if they do so for investment purposes. The markets would probably tolerate that. That, so far as I can see, is the strategy to follow. In my view, the risk is not that there will be a double-dip recession, although no one knows. Indeed, as noble Lords have said, especially the noble Lord, Lord Stern, if we have a double-dip recession, the Government should be ready to relax the constraints —not just through monetary policy, as I think the noble Lord, Lord Razzall, said, but also through fiscal policy.
The advantage of overbidding on the cutting side, if I may put it that way, is that the Chancellor will have some room in the future. If he did not cut too much now, he would not be able to relax later, so I think that he has front-loaded the psychology of the pain so that he will be able to retract if there are problems later. However, I suspect that we will have not a double-dip recession but very weak growth of perhaps 1.2 or 1.3 per cent this year and maybe somewhere between 2 and 2.5 per cent next year. Some of the sluggish growth relates to longer-term problems, as the noble Lord, Lord Stern of Brentford, said in an excellent speech. The sources for rapid growth, or an accelerated 3 to 3.5 per cent growth, are extremely weak in the view of economists. Unless we do something really fantastic by way of green technology or some such innovation, we will face severe competition in the standard manufacturing sectors from Asian economies, which have not suffered a recession. They are growing very fast and are acquiring, through research and development, the kind of industries in which we thought we had a temporary monopoly. There are already complaints in Germany and the United States that various Chinese industries are catching up in relation to some of the capital goods that China used to import but now exports. I think that we will have to be quite organised about a growth spurt, but it will have to come from investment and not from current spending.
I want to say something about taxation. My personal preference would have been for a higher proportion of tax increases rather than spending cuts but that is a judgment which a Government in power have to make. I welcome the VAT rise. I have always been a hawk on VAT and in a speech some time ago in your Lordships’ House I even said that the Chancellor should have taken the opportunity to remove the zero-rating on VAT and go all the way. I do not mind saying that I have been sacked twice from the Front Bench for saying that, but the IMF agreed with me that zero-rating of VAT should be removed and that we should have no sacred cows when it comes to taxation. We have to reduce our consumption and raise our saving and investment. VAT is a tax on consumption. We should think much more progressively about using VAT and not be worried by what I might call the standard economic 101 response that it is a regressive form of taxation. It is not quite true, but we ought to define it.
I am worried that the Government have not taken the opportunity to do very much about taxation of work. I do not know how national insurance contributions got to be where they are, but it is interesting that we tax earned income more than we tax unearned income. Someone in employment pays both income tax and NIC. If I were sitting on my butt at home drawing dividend income I would pay income tax only, not NIC. There is an opportunity for this or any Government to think about integrating income tax and NIC and the real extent of how much we tax earned income will become clear. It is about one-third. Having to pay 30 per cent plus tax on earned income is something that we ought to think about seriously. We should try to reduce tax on work and raise it on spending.
There is a lot of scope for simplification and integration of tax. I do not see why there is an upper limit on NIC. That makes it very regressive and it should be brought into line with income tax. I am not, and never have been, in favour of the Liberal Democrat proposal to increase personal allowances from £6,500 to £10,000. I have spoken about that before. I think that that would be a regressive step. I commend the fact that the Budget limits the regressive effect of that tax cut by not letting the higher income levels earn the benefit of raising the personal allowance as well. There is something else to think about regarding personal allowances. We could make them more into a tax credit rather than maintaining them as they are, but I have spoken before on that so I shall say no more.
I hope that the Government do not adopt a graduate tax. I beseech them not to do that. I would much rather British undergraduates paid the same fee that foreign students pay, which is roughly £10,000. I have been advocating that since 1997. We should allow universities to charge whatever fees they want and remove the subsidy for undergraduate tuition fees. The money saved could be put into research for universities, which would be a much better use of money and more growth-enhancing than having 18 year-olds who have nothing better to do but to go to college. There is no logic in subsiding them up to £7,000 a year over three years—£10,000 would be the right amount. We currently subsidise EU students coming to British universities, and we could eliminate that if all students, from wherever they came, had to pay the same amount of £10,000. I hope that the Government will consider these mild proposals.
Lord Spicer
My Lords, 36 years ago almost to the day and the hour, I made my maiden speech in the other place. I spoke in the Second Reading of the Finance Bill, and as punishment was put on the Finance Bill Committee for the next five years. Luckily, that cannot happen to me here. It was my first speech in Parliament but it was almost one of my best. Inflation at the time was raging at 20 per cent, which is completely unsustainable and I came to the conclusion and suggested in my speech that it would result in middle-class revolution. I said that middle-class people would be marching on the streets between the fruit-growing areas of Evesham in my constituency and the Malvern Hills. I was completely wrong—they all stayed at home—but it was a magnificent speech.
I am afraid that this one will not be as good for various reasons, not least that it will be short—I have almost finished it already. As I enter my dotage I do not remember or even understand the clever economic arguments that one used in the past. In 1974 I was still running a semi-respectable econometric forecasting company—the noble Lord, Lord Burns, was a part-time member. Terry Burns, as I used to know him, was absolutely brilliant as a computer and econometric programmer. He was working at that time on the London Business School forecasting model, commanded—I think that is the right word—by the inimitable Professor Jim Ball.
The other thing that I have to consider in this speech is not to be controversial. I suppose that means being anodyne. However, I hope that your Lordships will forgive me if I say one thing of substance about the Bill that we are currently debating—I shall be as uncontroversial as I possibly can be in saying it. It is, I assume, a matter of no controversy that there is a debt problem in this country. It is also a matter of no controversy that the coalition Government are adopting a fiscal stance in terms of taxation and public expenditure policy to remedy that situation. I understand that it is, in a broad sense, supported by the Opposition. There is debate about timing and, because it is controversial, I do not intend to go into that.
I simply want to put before your Lordships the point that there is a strategic alternative to what is going on at the moment. It is not one that I support—I have to give an opinion about that—but there is one. The noble Lord, Lord Razzall, hinted at it. In most cases similar to the one we are in with high government debt, there could be a monetary policy aimed at stoking up a bit of inflation to bring down the cost of the debt in real terms. That is quite normal for Governments. It is a perfectly reasonable alternative and may, indeed, come about by default at some point, but the problem with it is that if you have a little bit of inflation, it can, in bad times, become quite big inflation. That was the point of my raising this in my maiden speech when we had 20 per cent inflation. One fifth of people’s savings were collapsing every year. It seems to me that a policy that implicitly or explicitly is based upon inflation, which could be an alternative to what we have at the moment, is not a brilliant idea. Even if you have low inflation, it is not good news for those dependent on savings or on fixed incomes. I hope that it is not too controversial to say that I support the present strategy so far as fiscal policy is concerned.
I have one final, very small, point, which I hope your Lordships will not feel is too sycophantic. This House in its present shape contributes a little bit towards the balance of public expenditure by not paying its Members. If there were to be a change to an elected Chamber where professional Members were fully paid, that situation would alter. I simply make that point. It is a very small point in connection with the revision of this Chamber, and there are much wider issues that I hope noble Lords will allow me to come back to on another occasion, but I would tax noble Lords’ patience and it certainly would not be relevant and would be controversial if I went down that way so, on that basis, I will sit down.
Lord Ryder of Wensum
My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow my noble friend. I congratulate him on his fine maiden speech and, in particular, on his words about the dangers of inflation. As he said, my noble friend represented a Worcestershire constituency in the other place for 36 years, and I know he represented it with great distinction. He was a Minister, deputy chairman of the Conservative Party and served as chairman of the 1922 Committee for nine storm-tossed years. It is testament to his admired calm and strength of character that he managed to emerge from this experience with his sanity and humour still intact.
My noble friend is also an author. His books include The Cotswold Murders and The Cotswold Mistress. Disraeli once remarked:
“An author who speaks about his own books is almost as bad as a mother who speaks about her own children”.
What with murders and mistresses, my noble friend’s literary reticence does not surprise me in the least. We welcome my noble friend to your Lordships’ House.
The Chancellor’s Budget deserved praise for its aims, construction and delivery, but of course it was just a June hors d’oeuvre before October’s main course. I favoured broadening the VAT band rather than raising the scales. It would have yielded the same revenue and I fancy that Treasury officials recommended this option. It remains incongruous for the United Kingdom to keep one of the narrowest VAT bands in Europe while espousing the virtues of tax incentives to businesses and preferences for indirect taxes and lower direct taxes.
I supported the establishment of the Office for Budget Responsibility, but it must stay separate from the Treasury and free from ministerial interference, broadly along the lines advocated by the noble Lord, Lord Stern, earlier. It is required because circumstances have changed. During my spell as a Treasury Minister more than 20 years ago under my noble friend Lord Lawson, ministerial tampering with growth forecasts was strictly out of bounds. Yet it became clear each year under Gordon Brown that growth forecasts were manipulated for political purposes. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Mandelson, confirms this practice in his memoirs.
During our debates in the past three years, some noble Lords have heard me dissenting from the then Opposition’s policy of sharing the proceeds of growth adhered to by the Conservatives long after it became apparent that the Labour Government’s spending had emptied the kitty. Consequently, and in view of the grave condition of our public finances, I rued the Opposition’s vow to ring-fence the health and international development budgets.
My late noble friend Lord Bauer, a colleague of the noble Lord, Lord Desai, at the London School of Economics, would have raised an eyebrow over protecting overseas aid. He would have reminded us that it is a process by which the poor in rich countries often subsidise the rich in poor countries. Evidence of these government-to-government subsidies, fitting Bauer’s maxim, come from Afghanistan and elsewhere. Apparently, the Dubai construction industry is a beneficiary of siphoned off aid redirected by corrupt rulers. Doubtful schemes said to be assisted by British overseas aid include fraud in the Kenya education sector, 700 “ghost” teachers in Malawi and money spent on strengthening the voices of older people in the Ukraine.
Julian Harris of the International Policy Network, which scrutinises aid, said:
“It is extremely irresponsible to increase … aid … while at least a quarter of projects are failing”.
What provides Britain with better value for money, pound for pound: the ring-fenced DfID or the unprotected BBC World Service? Eight years ago, after the death of Lord Bauer, the noble Lord, Lord Desai, wrote that his views had won the respect of time—but not at DfID. Lord Bauer, a classical Smithian, would have raised another eyebrow; namely, that a Government in office for three months had failed to appoint a trade Minister.
Of course, it is heartening to hear the Prime Minister’s declaration about the need to attract inward investment and explore trade opportunities in emerging markets partly by obliging the Foreign Office to become more commercially minded. Yet can these outcomes be achieved unless the Foreign Office budget is protected? As it stands, the Foreign Office budget is about a quarter of the size of DfID’s. I would merge them, as of old, giving the Foreign Secretary control with a Minister of State responsible for DfID. I understand that up to 27 people are now entitled to sit around the Cabinet table. One fewer would be a start, still leaving no fewer than 18 more table sitters than at the height of our empire. It is right, of course, to reduce the numbers of Members of Parliament, but why not cut the number of Ministers too?
Last week, the Prime Minister spoke about competitiveness with great enthusiasm. His precise words were:
“We have got to fight the battle over free trade all over again”.
I am sure that he is familiar with the name of Professor Paul Krugman, a Nobel prize winner in economics. Krugman, when invited to define an economist’s creed, replied:
“I understand the principle of comparative advantage and advocate free trade”.
I wonder whether the Krugman creed applies to overseas aid or pages 16 and 17 of the coalition’s programme for government devoted to energy and climate change. These pages amount to at least a dozen public spending pledges worth more than £200 billion during the next decade. Ben Warren, a partner in Ernst and Young, said:
“We don’t know how the government intends to raise money, and we do not know the green investment bank is going to leverage in private capital”.
Most of the cost will ultimately fall on consumer bills. Funded that way, boosting the use of renewable energy may prove unaffordable.
Thus I was concerned over the weekend to read the Energy Secretary evangelising about the need to increase subsidised wind turbines when priority should be given to nuclear power. Your Lordships’ Economic Affairs Committee estimated that wind was at least 50 per cent more expensive per unit generated than nuclear. Whatever we think, the renewable targets will not be met. Gas may be the best answer to bridge the gap between 2015 and the new nuclear stations. Both gas-fired power stations and fuel cell technology in urban and rural areas should be studied in greater detail and with greater urgency.
Professor Dieter Helm from the Oxford Energy Institute has calculated that the added cost to business of the coalition’s energy plans could be as high as 25 per cent—hardly a spur to competitiveness. We already know that climate change policies constitute 21 per cent of our industrial bills and last year the burden of green taxes and regulations amounted to £26 billion. The ITEM Club has stressed that recovery will not come from consumers this time but from the business sector. My fear is that yet more additional costs could force manufacturing businesses abroad and limit our growth rate. A danger exists that the energy measures of the coalition as set out could damage our economy far more and far sooner than any projected global warming when the economy is in such a vulnerable state as it is to day.
The same anxieties haunt Congress. It and the president are unwilling to risk higher taxes in order to subsidise China. Even President Sarkozy, never the soundest man on parade, has warned about green protectionism; and Canada, a Kyoto signatory, has increased its emissions more than the USA, a Kyoto dissenter, simply to protect its competitiveness on world markets.
I support the coalition and its general direction, but it must not impose unnecessary costs on British industry in the name of fashionable doctrines, however well intentioned. Otherwise it will find that growth is blunted and our better manufacturers move abroad for fear of lacking competitiveness.
Lord Barnett
My Lords, I add my congratulations to those already given to the noble Lord, Lord Ryder. I think he said he made his maiden speech 36 years ago on a Finance Bill and, for his sins, got put on it again either for five years or five times—I am not sure which he said. For my sins, as Chief Secretary I took those Finance Bills all the way through the House, whether it was for five years or five times, and there were often two a year in those days. I cannot remember what I said so I hope he will forgive me if I cannot remember what he said at that time.
I will not speak about the Finance Bill this year. I want to speak to speak about the central economic forecasts of the present coalition Government. The central policy, as expressed in the emergency Budget, was reducing the deficit. The only other major policy, described as a new policy, was the Office for Budget Responsibility. Unlike 1997, when the Monetary Policy Committee was a genuinely new policy given real powers, the Office for Budget Responsibility has powers only to forecast, and those forecasts can, of course, be ignored. The OBR’s independent forecasts have been semi-criticised by many as not necessarily being so independent. The criticism of Sir Alan Budd was much overstated. He himself admitted that he was a little naive. Perhaps he should learn that he should never be naive about the Treasury and its forecasts. Otherwise, I would not doubt his integrity or his honesty, either on this occasion or on any other.
There is no shortage of independent forecasts, as the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, will know. The Treasury itself in most, if not all, of its documents constantly quotes independent forecasts. It seems a little insulting to suggest that the Treasury’s civil servants were so lacking in independence that they were not really independent at all and allowed Chancellors over the years to override what they were saying in their published documents.
The noble Lord said that one of the benefits is greater transparency. I am sorry to see that the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, is not transparent on every occasion. In answer to a Written Question from me, asking him for various discussions that the Chancellor may have had with the Governor of the Bank of England, he said:
“As was the case with previous Administrations, it is not the Government’s practice to provide all details of such discussions”.—[Official Report, 21/7/10; col. WA 220.]
So the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, is not transparent on all occasions, even if he is now telling us that the OBR is.
What is clear from the OBR’s forecasts is that, unlike what was said in the emergency Budget about there being no alternative to the Government’s Budget policy, there clearly is an alternative and it was shown in the pre-Budget forecasts. In the pre-Budget document we were told that if the pre-Budget forecasts had been based on the predecessor Government’s policies, the deficit would come down to 3.9 per cent of GDP in 2014-15. In the June Budget document, we were told the Budget deficit would come down to 2.1 per cent. Even if it were to come down to zero, the difference is not so huge as to warrant such major cuts as are proposed in the emergency Budget. In any event, huge uncertainties underlie those forecasts. On page 7 of the pre-Budget forecast, under the heading, “Constructing the forecast”, we are told of the uncertainties five times within some five lines. Even the OBR and its forecasts, therefore, are massively uncertain. Despite that, a substantial programme of public expenditure cuts is now being planned, based on all those uncertainties in the OBR’s forecast.
It is clear, then, that there is an alternative. Not only is the pre-Budget forecast of the OBR not so different from the Budget forecast for 2014-15, but page 99 of the Treasury’s Red Book shows net debt remaining in 2014. Total net debt is expected to be 69.4 per cent of GDP; it would have been 74.4 per cent under the pre-Budget forecast. Although the Government’s Budget anticipates the public finances being in better shape—in their terms—than under the previous Government’s forecast, the previous forecast could by no means be described as disastrous. In any case, as I have said, there are huge uncertainties in anybody’s forecasts.
Much depends on the assumptions made. For example, the pre-Budget forecast took the predecessor Government’s growth forecasts, which many thought were too optimistic. I agree that they seemed too optimistic, although I am bound to say that the figures for the latest quarter, showing 1.1 per cent growth—which is the equivalent of nearly 4.5 per cent per annum—suggest that I was being too pessimistic. Perhaps the previous Government’s growth forecasts were accurate and would have helped cut the deficit rather faster than the present Government’s plans. However, it is much too soon to suggest that growth next year will be that high. I would not suggest for a minute that it is likely to be, because none of us knows—the uncertainties remain. The forecasts may have been reasonable—it may even be that the inheritance of the Government is rather better than they have been telling us—but the figures do not provide certainty, and it is planning major policy on the basis of such uncertainty that is so wrong.
Against that uncertain background, the Chancellor has chosen to make the savage public expenditure cuts that he will tell us about after the comprehensive spending review. Even if it is the right policy to cut to that degree, what are the chances of success? The Chancellor is setting about it in the right way—as Chief Secretary, I had to make rather a large number of cuts over many years—and asking the departments to choose their own priorities. They will have to set out public expenditure cuts in their own departments ranging from 25 per cent to 40 per cent, with the Chancellor, or the Cabinet if necessary, deciding. The departments know their own priorities.
Overall, when you are spending £700 billion of public money, I would not deny that there is room for cuts. However, I would not have ring-fenced any department, not even the National Health Service. After all, the National Health Service’s expenditure in 2008-09 was nearly £110 billion—it will be much higher now in real terms. To pretend that there is no room for substantial cuts in administration out of that level of expenditure is surely wrong, so one could have reduced the cuts even more.
Public expenditure can be cut, and it is clear that this was the Conservative Party’s agenda. Indeed, even if there had been no deficit, these cuts would have been proposed so that it could make the tax cuts, which is what it is really about. It is going to have considerable difficulty in making 25 per cent cuts, never mind 40 per cent, in every single department.
I have spoken to a number of other former Chief Secretaries and Chancellors, Conservative ones as well, and none of them thinks it can be achieved. If it is achieved, as the Government seem determined it will be, I am sure they will appreciate, although I am not sure their coalition partners the Lib Dems appreciate, what it will mean to those departments to make 25 per cent cuts in every one of them over a four year period. I hope we never come to it, but I fear we may if the House accepts and the Government accept that what they are doing is right.
The OBR has shown, given its uncertainties of forecasts, that it will no longer forecast what exactly is going to happen, so we should listen to Ben Bernanke in the United States, where they also have uncertainties. Indeed the phrase used by Bernanke was, “unusually uncertain”. Despite all that, we are going to get these massive cuts, come what may. I can only hope that by keeping interest rates low, the Bank of England would offset some of the worst of it.
The Bank of England is truly independent of course. It is more independent than the OBR because it has an Act of Parliament already. We have always known that a senior Treasury official attends the monthly meetings of the Monetary Policy Committee of the Bank of England. What we have never known is whether he sits there saying nothing, because no previous Treasury Minister has ever been willing to say what exactly goes on at those MPC meetings or whether the Treasury official joins in. He is not a member of course. Now we know that he does. We had an answer the other day which I think the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, may regret, but it is worth quoting. He is shaking his head, but let me quote what he said, because I promise him that it will come back to him. It was on 20 July in answer to a supplementary question from me, in which I said:
“the noble Lord has just said that it is not for him to comment on what the Bank of England does”,
but I pointed out that a senior official from his department attends those MPC meetings. His reply was very interesting.
“My Lords, it is correct that a senior official of the Treasury sits in on the monthly Monetary Policy Committee meetings, but that official is not a member of the committee. I have performed that function myself on one occasion, and I understood that it was my duty to bring to the attention of the MPC anything the Treasury thought it ought to be aware of”.—[Official Report, 20/7/10; col. 908]
I am delighted to hear that, because it is quite sensible. I never really did believe, because it is so important an issue, that the Chancellor never spoke to the Governor of the Bank of England on this and many other matters. The sensible thing to do was to talk to the Governor of the Bank of England. In due course, if, sadly, they go ahead with these policies, will the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, assure us that the Treasury, if not the Chancellor himself, will, through the senior official at the MPC meetings, tell the MPC the Chancellor’s or the Treasury’s views on the need to offset the worst of the public expenditure cuts by keeping interest rates low, and possibly by increasing quantitative easing? I know that the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, thinks that that is of no use anyway but it is a worth a try. It is better than doing nothing and letting the worst effects of the public expenditure cuts take effect. I have some more written questions—
Lord Higgins
I am grateful to the noble Lord. I did not say what he has just reported me as saying; I said that the quantitative easing is being frustrated, which is not the same thing.
Lord Barnett
I am sorry to misquote the noble Lord. I thought that that was what he was getting at, but never mind. I apologise to him, but I am not apologising to the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon. I want him to give us an assurance. In the event of the cuts turning out to be as bad as many are now indicating, I am not alone in suggesting that that could reduce economic growth, not see it increase. The ITEM Club, which is truly independent, has said the same as the IMF in suggesting, based on Treasury figures, that it would have an effect on economic growth.
Finally, Martin Wolf, in a recent article in the Financial Times, put the arguments well for whether the economy should be tightened in current circumstances. He is a highly regarded journalist, as I am sure the noble Lord will agree, and he put the central issue as follows. If tightening is correct, which is the Government’s policy,
“failure would bring fiscal and financial shocks”.
On the other hand, if tightening is not correct, it might,
“threaten recovery and might trigger further … shocks”.
The consequences of tightening, as I have said, could be very serious indeed. Nevertheless the Government, with Lib Dem support, seem bent on pursuing that policy. I am not sure whether the coalition partners fully appreciated what they were agreeing to. The Government, however, have always said—I started off with this—that there is no alternative. In fact, as I have shown from the OBR’s own forecasts, there is an alternative. I hope that the Government will take it.
Baroness Browning
My Lords, I begin by thanking your Lordships for the many kindnesses and considerations that have been shown to me since my introduction on 13 July. I also thank the members of staff in your Lordships’ House for their very helpful guidance and the tips they that have given me, such as how to find the right corridor to go along. I have sometimes found myself a little lost but they have always shown great concern and been very kind and helpful. I thank them very much. To many outside this Chamber, it may seem quite a simple journey along the Corridor from another place to your Lordships’ Chamber, but there is much to learn here. It is rather nice that, as somebody who would normally be categorised as a baby boomer, for the past two weeks I have felt myself to be a new girl. That has given me some considerable pleasure.
I have also had experience in recent years of working with Members of your Lordships’ House on issues that are very important to me, issues in which I showed interest in another place and issues on which I hope to continue my work here in this Chamber. I was privileged to be a member of the pre-legislative scrutiny committees on the then Mental Capacity Bill, so ably chaired by the late Lord Carter, and on the Mental Health Bill, so ably chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew, who brought a great deal of personal experience to his chairmanship in what was a very complicated and difficult piece of legislation. I enjoyed that work and hope to continue it in your Lordships’ House. I have a particular interest in mental health, learning disability and autism, where I have a very personal family interest. I look forward to continuing some of that work not least because much of the legislation in this area is new to the statute book. The Autism Act 2009, which your Lordships dealt with in the last Parliament, has yet to be fully implemented. Perhaps I may say to my noble friends on the Front Bench that I shall be quite vigilant in pursuing that, to make sure that the Government implement that legislation as it was intended by both Houses of Parliament.
I studied in great detail this very short Finance Bill, and I have to say that I could not find anything in it that was non-controversial. I was given some guidance that said, “If you say something in your maiden speech and somebody is tempted to stand up and intervene on you, then don’t say it”. So I have spent the whole weekend studying this very short Bill—probably more time per line than I have ever given to any other piece of legislation. I have to say to my noble friend Lord Spicer that I rather have chickened out. I hope that your Lordships will be relieved that I just want to make two short points which are associated with the Bill. I see them as a backdrop but I am in no way going to venture into any of the taxation legislation that is before us today.
The first point concerns banks. I think we all agree that there is a need for small and medium-sized businesses not only to start up but to grow, and that a lot is vested in this country in their ability to do so, and to do so successfully. I say to my noble friends on the Front Bench that I believe that the Government need to pursue banks to make sure that there is sufficient lending to the small business sector to enable it to make the most of its and the country’s opportunity, not only by contributing to growth but, very importantly, by creating jobs. I know that the Department for Business has today made statements about what it intends to do with the banks, but all of the policies before your Lordships’ House today will benefit from a viable and successful small business sector that can access funding from the banks. Unlike other parts of business—large corporations, for example, and many of the bigger incorporated businesses which have access to other sources of money and borrowing—small and medium-sized businesses are very dependent on the big clearing banks for funding.
On the subject of banks, there has to be a balance struck between their ability to lend and, in the light of our recent experience of the banking sector, the viability of banking both in this country and beyond it as well. I am very concerned that on Friday, when the Committee of European Banking Supervisors announced its assessments of the stress tests of more than 90 European banks, including UK banks, it came out very late in the day. There may have been a very good reason why it felt that it was better to announce the results after the markets had closed, but it took a lot of analysis by people over the weekend to identify that these assessments were in fact made on the banks’ trade books, not on the whole balance sheets. Further, if you dig really deeply into the CEBS website you will find that the sovereign debt of these banks was not taken into account at all. I am raising the issue in today’s finance debate in order to say to my noble friends that I believe that, while we need to make sure that banks in this country can lend, as I have said, we also need to make sure that any assessment of banks, either individually or collectively, is both comprehensive and transparent or we will not have learnt the lessons of what has happened recently in the banking sector.
Finally, there is the question of the deficit. Noble Lords will be pleased to hear that I am not going to venture into the deficit—but it is huge. It is often quite difficult to explain to people what in tangible terms it means to them and to their everyday lives, and the necessary measures that have to come forward. Debt, and interest on that debt, is accruing at a rapid rate—the figure which I was given this morning was £350,000 a minute. In the six minutes that I have been speaking, more than £2 million of debt has accrued in this country. As this is a maiden speech, I am sure that your Lordships are being very polite—otherwise you surely would have said, “Please sit down before it goes up any more”. I will sit down, but I wanted to flag up the fact that this is something that we have to take seriously. It has to be tackled because the money is going out as fast as it is coming in.
Lord Blackwell
My Lords, it is a great pleasure and privilege to follow my noble friend Lady Browning, and I congratulate her on a very eloquent and well judged speech. Her speech illustrated that she brings to this House a huge and valuable breadth of experience on many topics. She served some two decades in the other place, scrutinising legislation, but also spent several years as a Minister—lastly and perhaps most notably at the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, where she made a huge impact. She also spent several years as a shadow Cabinet Minister and vice-chairman of the Conservative Party. Before entering Parliament, she had further varied experiences: as a tutor in adult education; as an auxiliary nurse; in business, as a sales and training manager and as a self-employed entrepreneur; and 10 years as chairman of Women into Business. As she says, she also has a very active interest in mental health and has been an active vice-president of the national Alzheimer's disease society as well as having a personal interest in autism. So it is clear that she has very much to bring to the House on a wide range of matters. We welcome her and look forward to her future contributions.
Before I delve into the Finance Bill, I put on record my interests as a director of a number of businesses affected by the tax provisions in this Bill, and in particular of a life company involved in pensions and savings. I shall touch on some of the issues in the Bill that relate to that. I shall talk about some of the specifics in the Bill but, first, I shall say a few words to put it in context. There has been a lot of discussion about fiscal judgment and the scale of the deficit. That is, of course, important—but it is perhaps even more important to look at the policy in the framework of a long-term policy for stimulating growth and wealth creation in the economy. Economic growth is ultimately not determined by one year’s deficit or tax levels but by the size of the labour force and its productivity, which is driven by the success we have in driving entrepreneurship and innovation in the economy, the level of investment and perhaps also our success in generating an environment of free trade. If you start to analyse those factors and their relationship to the Bill, wealth creation as the starting point derives from enterprise and innovation and is crucially dependent on the stimulation of a low-tax economy.
There are two components of any economy—the component that pays tax and the component that spends tax. It is vital that any economy keeps those two sectors in balance. If we end up with too much tax falling on the sector that pays tax, the consequence is to drive out wealth creation, to destroy growth and reduce the future welfare of individuals and society. At the beginning of any discussion about fiscal policy and public spending, we must ask how much tax we can afford to pay in a modern, competitive economy. That is the starting point—not the shopping list of what we would like to spend the money on.
Since the 1960s, for some 50 years, the UK has only briefly had government tax receipts rising above 40 per cent of GDP. The highest period, when they rose into the mid-40 per cent range, was in the early 1980s, when a previous Government were restoring fiscal balance after a period of spending excesses. But for most of the 50 years since the 1960s, public receipts have ranged in the late 30 per cent range—36, 37 or 38 per cent of GDP. You might think pragmatically, therefore, that experience tells us 40 per cent is something of a natural ceiling on the amount of tax that can easily be raised from the UK economy without damage. There are reasons why that might be true—the need to maintain incentives, the need to maintain international competitiveness, and tax efficiency. Clearly, you get to a point where, as you raise taxes, the tax yield starts to fall rather than rise, particularly as economic growth is depressed. It was perhaps for that reason that the last Conservative Government’s manifesto in 1997 set out a commitment to keep public expenditure at the level it had reached—below 40 per cent—as, if you like, a golden rule.
The actual course of public expenditure since 1997 was that it grew remorselessly as a percentage of GDP almost year by year since 2000, to reach 48 per cent of GDP in 2009-10. Government receipts, however, have stayed at the historic levels or 38 or 39 per cent. It is that 10 per cent gap, between the level of public spending and the level of receipts that the Government can raise through taxation, which has caused the budget deficit and the crisis we are now facing. Whatever the banks have done, it was never sustainable for a Government to believe that they could carry on increasing expenditure to the level they had, up to 48 per cent of GDP, and then to go on borrowing at that level.
The right answer is not to seek to raise taxes to 48 per cent, which would be a level we have never achieved in this country, but to move spending back to an affordable proportion of GDP, to get the balance between the taxpaying and the tax-spending parts of the economy back into a sensible proportion. That is the way to promote growth in a low-tax economy that ultimately creates wealth that we can all share. I therefore welcome the plans set out in the Budget to reduce spending back to below 40 per cent of GDP by 2015-16. That is an essential plank of sound financial management and restoring a growth economy. I also welcome raising tax thresholds to the low paid, as a first step in the benefits of low taxation—it is a policy that I have written about and argued for over many years and I am delighted that it is now part of government policy. I also welcome, of course, the plan to start the reduction in corporation tax rate and the aim to reduce corporate tax rates to 24 per cent.
Many noble Lords have raised arguments about the speed of adjustment and whether the speed of adjustment back to an affordable level of spending is appropriate, but as the noble Lord, Lord Desai, pointed out earlier, these so-called cuts are cuts against planned public expenditure. If you look at the proposed course of public expenditure set out in the Red Book, you will see, as the noble Lord said, that current public expenditure is more or less flat over this period, reducing, I think, by 1 per cent in real terms by the end of the planning period. I have no doubt that there are many opportunities, having had such a large rise in public expenditure in recent years, to create efficiencies, to cut out waste and to find low priorities which can be reduced, which will ultimately benefit the efficiency and productivity of public services.
If there are those who believe that a fiscal stimulus is still required—or a greater fiscal stimulus; the noble Lord, Lord Stern, said that the Government should keep this under review—we should remember that there are two ways of delivering a fiscal stimulus. You can either spend more, or you can reduce taxes. Against the background I have just described, I have no doubt that, if there is need for more fiscal stimulus, it should not be created by carrying on spending at profligate levels; it should be done by taking earlier action to meet the tax objectives that will restore growth in the economy.
At a time when the private sector is struggling in an austerity period, when many in the private sector are suffering low or negative wage rises, reductions in overtime and so on, it seems perverse that anyone should propose that more money should be taken out of people’s wage packets, or VAT raised higher than it has been, in order to carry on subsidising inefficiency or waste in the public sector. It is much better to do what we need to do to create an efficient public sector. If a fiscal stimulus is needed at any point, the Government should move further and faster to reduce taxation.
The second element of driving growth and productivity is investment. The counterpart to investment is, of course, a high-savings economy. High-savings economies are high-growth economies. At full employment, a high-savings economy is one in which more of the output is devoted to investment goods, driving future wealth creation and future opportunities to raise incomes and welfare. Therefore, I welcome the proposals to encourage savings in the Finance Bill. In particular, I welcome the proposal to end the tax penalty for high earners who put money into retirement provision. Like the Minister, I understand and accept the need to limit the tax benefit from pension tax relief for high earners, but I believe that a much more sensible route to go down is to have a limit on the annual contribution, which is fairer and less likely to damage the maintenance of pension schemes for those companies that have schemes covering the whole employee workforce.
I should like to raise a few points that the Minister and his colleagues might consider in the review that they are conducting. The first is whether the annual limit might be smoothed over two or three years so that, when somebody comes into an inheritance, makes a house sale or receives a redundancy payment, for example, they can take advantage of that and put a lump sum in the pension scheme, perhaps spreading the annual allowance over two or three years. Of course, that would be done without an increase in the total amount of money that people could put into a pension scheme. Secondly, I ask my noble friend to consider whether, as part of the reforms, the Government might abolish the lifetime limit on the value of a pension pot. If there is an annual limit on the amount that can be put in, it seems unnecessary also to limit the success with which that is invested. It is quite difficult for people who are near that limit to understand what the investment performance will be and whether they should put more money into the pension. If they happen to be successful, they will be penalised, so it seems to me that we should consider just limiting the amount that is put in, as that would be a fairer system. Finally, I suggest that the Minister might consider removing the distinction between the annual allowance for pensions and that for other forms of tax-efficient saving, such as ISAs. Many people would be encouraged to save more if they knew that they did not have to lock away the money on day one until retirement but could build up sums in an ISA and transfer that to a pension later. However, these are all points to consider and I very much welcome the review that will take place.
My final point is on the importance of free trade in encouraging growth and wealth creation. Free trade is perhaps not directly related to the Bill, but I am encouraged by the emphasis that the Government are putting on encouraging trade between the faster-growing economies around the world. I cannot resist the temptation to say to my noble friend that, when the expenditure review comes out in the autumn, we might look carefully at the amount of money and the priority given to expanding the European Union’s External Action Service and diplomatic posts and compare that with the amount of money that we put into supporting our own commercial embassies and other forms of support overseas.
In summary, I am extremely encouraged by the aims of financial policy set out in the Bill and by many of the measures in it. I believe that the Bill deserves every support.
Lord Lea of Crondall
My Lords, I add my congratulations and welcome to the noble Lord, Lord Spicer, who is an erstwhile tennis partner. More recently, he found himself showing me round the Carlton Club—as much to his surprise as mine, I think. It reminds me of his distinguished service as chairman of the 1922 Committee. I wonder how many years there will be before another revolution, so that the 1922 Committee will be the 2012 committee. I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Spicer, will advise his co-conspirators of how to go about that with his usual courtesy. He is a man of very great courtesy. He could slide a dagger in 16th century Rome and everybody would still be his greatest friend. I say that as a compliment.
I am afraid I will now part company with the noble Lord, Lord Spicer, and all his colleagues by saying that this will be the most disastrous Budget in living memory. First, economic growth will be hit. Secondly, it will be disastrous for employment. Thirdly, it will be disastrous for social cohesion and social justice. Fourthly, it will be disastrous for regional balance. These intertwine in many ways. The Budget is based on an implicit ideology which reminds me of the old Galbraith slogan and, indeed, of George Orwell: private sector good, public sector bad. I will come back to that point.
My starting point must be that the OBR has recently found that Labour’s deficit reduction plans would have more than achieved the target of halving the deficit over four years from 11.1 per cent in 2009-10 to 5 per cent in 2013-14. The OBR has also said that Labour’s plan would have reduced the structural deficit by nearly three-quarters, from nearly 5.2 per cent of GDP in 2010-11 to 1.6 per cent of GDP in 2014-15. That would have met the timetable set out in the G20 communiqué on 27 June. It is about time that the Conservatives—with their rhetoric about the mess that they were left—were shamed into ceasing to make those ridiculous remarks about the legacy.
The real problem with the legacy is totally different. The problem is the hole in the economy caused by the banking crisis. The loss that GDP has to bear is, according to the IFS, 20 per cent cumulatively. That is £300 billion before we get back to where we would have been if there had been no banking crisis. We will not achieve that, but that is the amount of lost output, income and living standards that we have all suffered thanks to the banking crisis. That, in turn, caused the public finance deterioration of about £50 billion. However, logically and arithmetically, rapid economic growth would need to be far more than the trend; it would need to be 4 per cent or 5 per cent per annum to get back up to where it should have been.
Filling the output gap is the only way to produce greater tax income and lower expenditure. Both go together. Tax income would come from the higher output from corporation tax, income tax and so on. Lower public expenditure would come from not having to spend as much on unemployment benefit and social security. Those are the dynamics of economic growth. I am sure that we will hear more about the fundamentals of that from the noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky, who wrote his monumental book on Keynes only recently. The real question, which I rarely hear Ministers comment on, is: what growth rates do they think would be needed to get back to that trend? Do they agree with these figures—not, do they disagree with them?—because that is the territory that we ought to explore?
Samuel Brittan, hardly a socialist revolutionary, has quoted Goldman Sachs in a recent article. I do not normally quote Goldman Sachs, but it has carried out work on the output gap and judges potential output to have grown at an annual rate of 2.6 per cent when output was on trend in 2005. On that basis, the output gap is now in excess of 10 per cent. That gap can only grow given that we are now at a lower base. The only scary variation on that is that we are so rapidly destroying potential growth that we will have to stabilise at much lower living standards than Germany because of the collapse of fixed investment, which fell by no less than 14 per cent in 2009. We must avoid that at all costs. People are now assessing what they describe as the sustainable rate of unemployment as 6 per cent, 7 per cent, 8 per cent or 9 per cent. This will be disastrous as it will inevitably exacerbate regional differences and cause dreadful social problems in swathes of Britain, particularly in areas other than the south-east. However, I do not exclude the south-east as there will be growing inequality and poverty in some areas there.
The regional development agencies have delivered for the regional economies. They have been independently evaluated and shown to lever, on average, £4.50 of benefit for every pound spent. The scrapping of the RDAs springs only from the ideological dogma: private sector good, public sector bad. Come back George Orwell, all is forgiven. The RDAs have trained more than 400,000 people and have created 850,000 jobs over the past 10 years. They have started, or rather have helped to start up—my noble friend Lord Myners will correct me if I say “started”—60,000 businesses. Some £100 million of funding has been brought forward by RDAs for regeneration projects to boost the economy during the recession.
All these figures are, of course, the mirror image of those claimed by Mr Osborne. However, the independent OBR has now more or less predicted many of Labour’s figures rather than Mr Osborne’s. It predicts that the Osborne strategy will mean tens of thousands more people in the dole queue and that it will bring employment down by 100,000. The CIPD forecasts that unemployment will increase by about half a million over the next two years to 3 million, and remain at that high level until 2015. A final twist in this jobs question is that George Osborne’s election campaign—a totally cynical campaign —promised to scrap Labour’s jobs tax. I say “cynical” as a rise in national insurance would keep people out of work. However, in the Budget, we learnt that the promised NI cut for employees would not go ahead and that more people would be out of work under the Government’s plans than under Labour’s. So much for George Osborne’s election claim that jobs would be saved under his plans.
Even now the penny does not seem to have dropped in Conservative ranks that public expenditure and private expenditure have a symbiotic relationship. As regards buildings and infrastructure—for example, schools and hospitals—the money is spent by Costain and all the suppliers. You do not need to be Einstein to work that out.
Finally, on the social impact, I follow up on the effect of income distribution. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Razzall, for probing this question after I started it. I was astonished by the flat answer given by the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, that the whole package is progressive—or certainly not regressive. He does not seem up to speed with the Government’s own line. On 20 July, the Treasury Select Committee published a report on the Budget and its conclusions are quite different from the Government’s. The Government now have a dilemma over what to say to the Treasury Select Committee.
The original hypothesis was, said Robert Chote, Director of the Institute of Fiscal Studies,
“that the Budget looked progressive when assessing whether the lowest income decile paid less than the highest income decile largely because of the reforms that had been announced by the previous Government in its March 2010 Budget rather than the specific measures announced in the June 2010 Budget”.
I underline that with another quote which is even more startling and has not yet been widely understood:
“Mr Chote concluded that based upon the three factors he had outlined—taking out the measures inherited from the previous Government, looking further into the future than 2012-13 and including some of the other measures which the Treasury had chosen not to model in their analysis of tax and welfare changes on households—the June 2010 Budget was ‘regressive’”.
In other words, it is regressive if you take out the measures inherited from the previous Government. It is astonishing to me they were ever there. The Government claim that it is progressive, but only because they embrace the measures taken by the Labour Government in the Labour Government’s Budget. You would be run out of the Monte Carlo casino if you tried that there.
The conclusion is that, now the Government have started to go down this path,
“the Comprehensive Spending Review will [have] effects on different income groups. We recommend that the Treasury builds on the approach taken in the Budget to give information about the impact of CSR changes on different households. We would like the analysis for both the CSR and future Budgets to take two forms: a narrowly drawn set of figures based on those measures most easily modelled”.
This is like the reference of the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, to all these fancy tables. You have to have a flannel round your forehead to get your brain round them, and now they turn out to be misleading because they include the Labour Government’s measures. They also want,
“a wider analysis using more assumptions, which would allow a fuller set of measures to be included”.
We desperately need to see the economy holistically—that is, public expenditure, the cuts, what you might call the macroeconomic situation and specifically the Budget measures.
The Minister has got himself into slightly hot water on this whole question of income distribution. Will the Government go with the spirit of the Treasury Select Committee and in future do income distribution analysis combining the Budget and the CSR? That will become a key question later in the year. Meanwhile, we are left with the poorest 10 per cent of households seeing an average annual spending cut of £1,300, equivalent to 20 per cent of their household income, whereas the richest 10 per cent of households see an average annual cut of £1,135, equivalent to only 1.6 per cent of their household income. That really needs to be addressed in a proper statistical manner.
Lord Higgins
My Lords, it is difficult to welcome a Finance Bill which increases taxation, and it will most certainly be unpopular. However, I do not have the slightest doubt that it is absolutely essential if we are to deal with the situation that we have inherited, which requires drastic measures on both taxation and public expenditure.
The Bill is probably one of the smallest that we have had for very many years and, in terms of pounds per page, probably more effective. It is not entirely clear to what extent the Government believe that they will increase revenue in either the current year or next year, but the Minister may be able to enlighten us in that respect. None the less, I think that we are going to see an increase in revenue but it is going to take some time, in the same way that cutting public expenditure takes some time. Therefore, the argument about whether one should make these changes quickly or slowly seems to be largely irrelevant. We know that an immediate impact of any scale is not possible, and the process is therefore bound to take place over a considerable period. However, we need to get on with it as fast as possible and that is effectively what this Finance Bill does.
First, I welcome without reservation the point made in my noble friend’s opening remarks regarding the abolition of the requirement to take an annuity at the age of 75. On at least three occasions from the opposition Front Bench, I moved an amendment to do just that, with suitable safeguards, and I think that the Government would be wise to look at those safeguards. This House, by a very large majority, supported the view that I expressed, but on each occasion the amendment then went to another place, where it was reversed. Therefore, I am absolutely delighted that, despite the arguments that tend to be made within the Treasury, the Government have at long last decided to take action on this. I have only one small caveat, which is that there appears to be some delay in implementing the measure, which means that people who are about to become pensioners will be forced to take out an annuity when annuity rates are so appallingly low. My noble friend shakes his head; if he is right, I should be delighted to hear why.
Apart from that, I want to concentrate on three specific points and then a more general one. The first relates to VAT. I made representations on this to the Chancellor ahead of the Budget because I was deeply disturbed by a recommendation from the International Monetary Fund that we should eliminate our process of zero-rating in order to raise more money. I think that that would have been completely wrong. No tax in our system has ever had the kind of scrutiny that VAT had when I had the task of steering it through the House of Commons. Ahead of the Conservative victory in 1970, we went into it in great detail. It had pre-legislative scrutiny; it had extraordinary examination at Committee, Report and Third Reading in the House of Commons; and the structure that we designed was intended to prevent the change from SET and purchase tax—both of which we abolished—being regressive. I have no idea why the IMF thinks it appropriate to go into detail about taxation in this way but, had the Chancellor gone along with the IMF’s views, the measure would certainly have been regressive.
On the other hand, the Chancellor has found it necessary to increase the rate of VAT to 20 per cent—exactly double the rate that it was when I introduced the tax—and this is going to have a substantial effect. Popular commentators are all saying that it is inflationary. It is, of course, cost inflationary but demand deflationary, depending on what the Chancellor does with the money. Certainly, if he simply puts it in a mattress somewhere, that is substantially deflationary and the overall effect may be in that direction. None the less the step that he has taken to increase the rate to 20 per cent was certainly better than the alternative for reasons that I have just given.
I turn now to capital gains tax. There was huge anticipation during the election that, given the policy of the Liberal Democrats, and so on, it might be raised in line with the top rate of income tax to perhaps 40 or 50 per cent. Again, together with colleagues, I made some representations to the Chancellor and said that it would be totally wrong to increase the rate of capital gains tax without making some allowance for the fact that inflation was built into those gains and therefore it was important to have some form of indexation or other recognition of the length of time that the asset has been held. Alas, in that respect we were not successful in persuading the Chancellor who came up with the rather strange compromise, evidently reflecting the needs of the coalition, that we should have an increase in rate of 28 per cent but no indexation. I think that that is quite wrong for the reason I mentioned—that the Chancellor is taxing again, which is entirely due to previous inflation, and which may stretch back over 20 years. Pensioners and others may be in a very difficult situation because of such a low rate of return on their savings and find it necessary to liquidate some of their assets, so to tax them on that gain without allowing for inflation is wrong. It is effectively a tax on wealth. I therefore hope very much that when the matter is discussed in another place—alas, we cannot do so—allowance will be made for that and it can be changed.
I said that this appeared to be in line with the coalition agreement, and it is crucial in that context to say that we should not go along with proposals put up by either part of the coalition on the basis that it keeps it together or become involved in horse trading rather than saying that it is justified on its merits. In that context, I go along with the noble Lord, Lord Desai, in relation to the student taxation proposals, put forward by Mr Vince Cable. A detailed examination of that shows that it would be a very bad tax indeed and ought not to be proceeded with.
Finally, I want to put the Finance Bill in context. There is no doubt that it represents a very substantial fiscal tightening. It has been pointed out that it may lead to consequences with regard to double-dip recessions and other fashionable ideas of that sort. Against that background it is important to have an appropriate monetary policy, and there seems to be a conspiracy of silence with regard to that. I read some of the papers over the weekend and just before. There were diagrams of every conceivable economic variable but not a single one showing what is happening to the money supply. Pessimistic forecasts were being made by the chief economist of the Bank of England who also did not mention the money supply. I have said before to the noble Lord, Lord Myners, and I say it now to my noble friend on the Front Bench that it is very important to distinguish between the price of money—interest rates—and the quantity of money. Monetary policy, strictly interpreted, is concerned with both, but in fact it is the money supply side that is really important against the fiscal background that I have described.
I think there is a strong case for easing monetary policy further by way of quantitative easing or, alternatively, as I suggested in questions to my noble friend, by the Debt Management Office pursuing a policy of funding that effectively frustrates the effect of the quantitative easing. To make it absolutely clear, I refer to the Bank of England’s 20 July provisional estimates of what is happening to the money supply. Seasonally adjusted provisional figures for June show that M4 fell by £0.7 billion in the month, and if you look at the graphs for growth rates in M4 from December to now, it falls off a cliff, despite quantitative easing. Therefore, despite the efforts of the Bank of England in that respect, we have not succeeded in having a growth of money supply that is consistent with a growth in the economy, but if we are to get out of the hole the economy is now in, it is essential that we should have a fixed plan for increasing the level of aggregate demand.
Of course, there will be queries at that stage. My noble friend Lord Spicer, who I am delighted to see here, referred to the danger of inflation. The level of inflation is much higher than the Bank of England’s target rate, but we need to look at this situation very carefully to see to what extent increasing the money supply in line with the level of growth we would like to see is likely to prove inflationary. This is not a simple issue, but the way the figures look at the moment is being ignored. We are not following a monetary policy that is consistent with our objectives. I have the privilege of being followed by my successor bar two, or perhaps three, as the chair of the Treasury Select Committee in the other place, which I was for 14 years, and I will be interested to know his views on this subject. We need to wake up on this issue because it is being ignored.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
It is a privilege to be speaking in a Second Reading debate so soon after being introduced in this House. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Spicer, and the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, on their excellent maiden speeches. They were colleagues in the Commons, and I look forward to healthy exchanges in this Chamber.
The noble Lord, Lord Stern of Brentford, was an excellent and regular witness before the Treasury Committee and a fine ambassador for our country. That came home to me very clearly during the visits I made to Africa where the impact of his climate change report had great ramifications. The noble Lord should be proud of his role in the Treasury and as climate change ambassador as a result of that. He mentioned the Office of Budget Responsibility and the need for transparency, clarity and independence. I offer noble Lords the example of United Kingdom Financial Investments, which came before the Treasury Committee and had a disaster on the first day. It was lodged in the Treasury building, and you could not put a piece of paper between it and the Treasury. The relationship between the OBR and the Treasury seems very similar. My advice to the Government is to get it out of the Treasury very quickly so that it can be independent and have that transparency and clarity of message that has, to date, been missing. It is important that we get that.
I wish this Government well for the sake of the country and for the sake of individuals. We are most definitely living in uncertain times. Last week, Ben Bernanke of the Federal Reserve, in his comments to Congress, said that it is an unusually uncertain environment. Last week, comments were made by Spencer Dale, the chief economist of the Bank of England, and a debate took place in the pages of the Financial Times, with comments from Jeffrey Sachs, Paul Krugman and Martin Wolf, who, incidentally, is on the Government’s independent Banking Commission.
When Sam Brittan, a favourite journalist of mine, wrote about this Budget, he asked: “Are these hardships necessary?”. He pointed out that the real argument should be about whether we need this unparalleled fiscal austerity. Mohamed El-Erian, in his column in the Financial Times, made very clear the global nature of this problem, which we have not spoken about enough. He said:
“The world is facing deep structural challenges”,
yet we are witnessing,
“fruitless discussions … and a troubling lack of global”,
financial “harmonisation”.
The utterances that came out at the G20 in Toronto fill that description aptly. Unless we get on top of this, and look at global imbalances and develop policies for the structural change, we will find ourselves in real problems.
Against that background, what is plan B for this Government? We are living in uncertain times. Therefore, there is no certainty about the proposals being put forward. I followed the deliberations of the Treasury Select Committee in its June 2010 Budget, which was released a few weeks ago. When the Chancellor of the Exchequer was asked about plan B, he said:
“The plan is to have confidence in the British economy and its ability to pay its way in the world”.
That is the sum total of the explanation for plan B, but I would suggest that that is insufficient. The political nature of the debate has made it harder to discuss plan B, but it must be discussed. The noble Lord, Lord Stern, made reference to that in his speech. There is insufficient assurance in these deeply worrying times.
Against that we have had a Budget which has accelerated the fiscal position very tightly. There will be £40 billion of spending cuts and tax decisions, made up of £8 billion in tax and £32 billion in spending cuts by 2014-15, of which £11 billion will be specific measures on welfare. You cannot tell me the implications for poorer people in our society when we have that £11 billion coming directly out of the welfare budget, with suggestions that more is to come. The impact of that will be a massive discretionary tax on £13 billion extra of spending. The Government have 77 per cent of its spending and 23 per cent of its tax rises for their Budget. Martin Wolf, in the Financial Times, said that the adverse impact on the poorest 10 per cent will be harsher than on the most rich groups in 2012-13 and that it will get worse thereafter.
There is a huge gamble at the core of this Budget. Can the Government explain this massive assault and spending cuts adequately to the satisfaction of ordinary people? Can they manage their public relations in this regard? Are these policies being fair on their impact on society? What will they do for long-term unemployment? The ONS June figures show that those who have been unemployed for more than 12 months have increased by 85,000 over the first quarter of this year. Standing at 772,000 that is the highest figure since the first quarter of 1997.
Let us not forget youth unemployment, which, for 18 to 24 year-olds, stands at an unprecedented 17.3 per cent. Since the start of the recession, youth unemployment has risen 5.1 per cent. I remember well as a school teacher meeting former pupils 10 years after they had left school and being introduced to their spouses and children. When I asked them whether they had a job they said that they did not. They were the lost generation of the 1970s and 1980s. Do we want to go back to a lost generation or do something about youth unemployment now, so that when we come out of this recession we will be in a fit and proper position in terms of skills in the economy? That is one issue.
The second issue in the gamble concerns the impact of the fiscal tightening on GDP. The Office of Budget Responsibility has predicted growth in 2010 of 1.2 per cent; in 2011 of 2.3 per cent; and in 2012 of 2.8 per cent. It will need a substantial contribution from business investment and exports in 2012 to achieve that. Indeed, contributions from business investment in that year will have to be 1 per cent and from exports 0.9 per cent if we are to achieve our growth target. That is a big challenge. In order to meet that challenge, the Government will be dependent upon domestic private spending being maintained and spending on UK exports being little affected by the fiscal squeeze which they are presently urging countries around the world to adopt. Something does not add up in that situation. We should remember that the Government’s plans are predicated on a private sector revival, with 2 million new jobs being created over the next five or six years. I have yet to meet an experienced economist who will tell me that that is a feasible outcome. This is a fast adjustment early in the life of the coalition Government and it raises the question of what effect these measures will have on individuals.
That brings me neatly to the Liberals. I held a landmark birthday party at my home on Saturday for one of my offspring. The cake with the candles was brought in and I thought of the coalition Government. Why should I think of the coalition Government when I should have been enjoying myself? It was because I saw the candles as the Liberals and the cake as the Conservatives, the Tories. The candles gave a little glow and a little hope but, as you and I know, they were cruelly blown out by my three year-old granddaughter. We were then left with the Tory cake. The question is whether it is an edible cake; is it succulent? Are we going to ask for second helpings or will it be inedible? I think it will be the latter. That is the issue. It will be hard to digest for many people.
Are the cuts on the cake illiberal? Are they too deep for an economy in the early stages of recovery when some of our trading partners are still very weak? Will the tax changes provide enough private sector investment and job creation after the state withdraws quickly? Will it be fair for all sectors? Is there a coherent ideology? If there is no ideology from the Government then we will have little shape and direction to where we are going. The noise of the cuts will be drowned out by everything else.
However, this is what the Government believe in and demonstrates their aspirations for society, but where is the Liberal influence? Where is the Liberal influence on the acceleration in the fiscal tightening area? Where is the Liberal influence on child poverty? In their manifesto the Liberals agreed with the eradication of child poverty by 2020.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way but I must reply to his assault upon the sole Liberal Democrat in the Chamber. Does he not agree that a candle at least provides a little light in a naughty world?
Lord McFall of Alcluith
Yes—but it depends for how long the candle exists before it is blown out. That is the issue. I fear that the candles have been blown out already.
In terms of child poverty, the Liberals have signed up for eradication in 2020. The Minister stood at that Dispatch Box last week and said that there are four criteria to the Child Poverty Act 2012. But the Government have given their commitment to one of those criteria only for the next two years and ignored the other three. If I have one criticism of my colleagues on the Treasury Committee for their June 2010 Budget, it is that there was no mention of child poverty. I hope this mild statement here will propel them to ensure that child poverty is taken into account.
I am being followed by the noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky, the expert on Keynes. Keynes did not believe in deficits for the sake of it. Sam Brittan said that the Government’s approach is not like that of households. When households and businesses do not spend, the Government step in. That is why we have had quantitative easing. There is an awful lot in this Budget that we still need to look at. I hope if recovery stalls that the Government will listen and that it will not be too late.
Finally, I note that the Brokeback utterances mentioned at the weekend by my good friend in the Commons, David Davis, took place in the Boot & Flogger pub in London. I would suggest to you that the Liberals will get the boot if they are insufficiently authoritative with their influence and that the Tories, if their PR strategy fails and their narrative is rejected, will be flogging a dead manifesto and will have to live with the consequences. Dealing with those generalities not specific to the Budget, I am delighted to contribute to this debate.
Lord Skidelsky
My Lords, the Finance Bill implements the taxation provisions of the emergency Budget Statement of 22 June. These will come to about 20 per cent of the total fiscal tightening which has been planned in this Parliament. So the Finance Bill as we have it before us is part of the Government’s programme for balancing the Budget over the next five years. In his opening speech, the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, said that a failure to address the deficit is the greatest danger we face. I would say that the failure to address the hole in the economy is the greatest danger we face and that unless the noble Lord is able to demonstrate how cutting the deficit will produce an economic recovery, there is a massive hole in his speech. I listened in vain for any such demonstration by the noble Lord.
In the debate on the Address, I asked the noble Lord, Lord Henley, this question. By what mechanism do the Government believe that fiscal tightening will promote recovery? The noble Lord, Lord Henley, was good enough to write to me, making three points. His first was that public borrowing is only taxation-deferred. The idea is that the public, knowing that they will have to pay for the deficit with higher taxes, increase their saving by the amount of the higher taxes they expect to have to pay. Thus the deficit not only fails to stimulate the economy, it crowds out more efficient private spending. As stated, the argument is simply false. That part of the deficit which brings into employment resources which would otherwise stand idle will be paid off without any need to increase taxes, simply by the growth of public revenue which the rise in national income brings about. I do not know that any serious economist believes this Ricardian equivalence argument and yet it is one of the justifications for the Government’s deficit-cutting programme. So where is the Treasury getting its wisdom from?
The second point the noble Lord, Lord Henley, made was that it would be irresponsible to accumulate substantial debts that would have to be paid off by subsequent generations in the decades to come. The reply to this is that a deficit does not impose a burden on future generations. There is no repayment burden because the Government, unlike private individuals, can and normally do repay their maturing debts by continuing to borrow. As for the interest burden which is said to arise when interest is paid by taxation rather than by fresh borrowing or printing money, it is merely a transfer payment. Income is transferred from taxpayers to bond holders. Since most of the transfer of income is within the United Kingdom, it is therefore a redistribution rather than a loss of income for future generations. Again, these are quite straightforward points once one grasps them, but the Government and many of the fiscal consolidators have gone on and on about the burden which would be faced by future generations, as though there was a net loss to them from an increase in the national debt.
If, however, the public deficit is cut now, there will undoubtedly be a burden on both present and future generations. Income and profits will be lowered straightaway; profits will fall over the medium term; pension funds will be diminished; investment projects will be cancelled or postponed; and schools will not be rebuilt, with the result that future generations will be worse off, having been deprived of assets that they might otherwise have had.
I go back to the letter of the noble Lord, Lord Henley. Of course, this is not a personal attack on the noble Lord, whom I greatly like and admire. He is just acting, as is the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon today, as the unfortunate fugleman of the Treasury. His third point was:
“The higher the level of debt, the higher the interest rate that markets will demand to compensate them for holding that debt. Failure to tackle Britain’s deficit would therefore push up the costs of debt service and risk higher long-term interest, not just for the Government, but also for families and businesses through the higher costs of loans and mortgages”.
Every proposition in that short paragraph is false in the present situation. If the economy were fully employed, it is true that the higher the level of public debt, the more the Government would have to pay for it, which could cause the whole structure of interest rates to rise. But if the private economy is depressed, interest rates on government debt do not have to rise; indeed, they have not risen over the whole of this recession, even though the Government are borrowing almost three times as much as before. Why? It is surely not because of the resolute steps which the Chancellor has taken to reduce the deficit and thus restore confidence, since the Treasury is able to borrow just as cheaply and with the same long maturities as under the previous Government.
The reason that all Treasuries, except the most profligate ones such as the Greek treasury, can get their money so cheaply is that investors demand safety-first investment strategies, or, as Keynes would have said, there has been a massive flight to liquidity. Even as government debt mounts, low yielding bonds are still considered better—because they are safer—than equities. Or, put another way, when there is a dearth of private sector investment opportunities, government borrowing does not “crowd out” private sector investment; it adds to it.
The reason that private sector investment is depressed is not fears about the cost or sustainability of the deficit. Do businessmen wake up in the night, thinking, “God, how large the deficit is! I really can’t do any business now because of the increase in the deficit”? I do not believe that that is the way in which businessmen think about it. They do not invest because they do not see the orders, not because they think that the deficit is running out of control. It is the same with the commercial banks, which still cannot accurately price their assets. It is because they have troubles with their balance sheets and because businesses cannot see where the orders are coming from that there is too little investing and borrowing going on in the private sector.
This explains—I go to a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Higgins—why quantitative easing is not the automatic offset to fiscal tightening that some noble Lords, especially the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, assumed it to be. It is not the printing of money but the spending of money which is important. Quantitative easing, unless it is done in particular ways—that is a subject on its own—is not a guarantee of the spending of money. So how does the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, propose to get a monetary policy consistent with a reasonable level of demand through quantitative easing? That was a missing part of an otherwise very interesting speech. In short, contrary to what the deficit vigilantes say, the deficit is the consequence and not the cause of depressed business conditions.
I believe that a Government who had the courage and intelligence to explain all this properly to the public would have a much better chance of calming jittery markets than the grotesque exaggeration of the dangers of debts and deficits which is now going on.
I agree thus far with the noble Lord, Lord Desai. There is not going to be a repeat of the 1929-31 depression. We have done enough to cut off the slide. There is an anaemic recovery going on. The UK may grow by 2 per cent this year, though I would be surprised if it did. If we look beyond a single quarter’s figures, to the forces of demand in the world, especially as they will be impacted by the rolling out of the cuts in Europe and elsewhere over the next few years, it is hard to see where the sources of robust growth are coming from. In that sense I disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Desai, who made a constructive and well-thought-out speech. I agree with him when he argues that the extra cuts this year are too slight to have any really depressive macro-economic consequences.
The point is that the Government have said that they are deliberately going to take £100 billion of spending out of the economy over the next four or five years, and it is the effect of that determination to do that on business confidence which seems the relevant factor, not the very small amount of cuts that are going to take place this year.
So what would my alternative policy be? One confidence-boosting policy would be for the Government to cut taxes by the same amount as they cut their own spending. This would imply a reduction of taxes by about £100 billion over five years. There is a nod to tax cutting in the Budget in the proposals to reduce corporation tax, but the net effect of the tax policies is to raise taxes and therefore will be deflationary. Also, the effect of tax cutting on demand is subject to quite large uncertainties: how much will be saved, how much will be spent and so on. A far better way would be to offset any cuts in current spending by an increase and acceleration in capital spending. A recession is an ideal time to bring a country up to date, since labour and capital will be cheaper than in boom times.
The £38 billion high-speed rail link from London to Birmingham and beyond, unveiled in March by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, who I see is in his place, is a perfect example of such a programme, as is the smaller railway electrification programme announced at the same time. This is not all shovel-ready stuff, but a determined Government could get the high-speed scheme going long before the business-as–usual start planned for 2017. It would set up an immediate demand on the construction industries while also offering long-run returns. Former Chancellor Alistair Darling’s scheme for a green investment bank to invest in renewable energy and energy efficiency, is another example. Industry experts predict that up to £37.5 billion will be needed each year for the next 10 years to upgrade or replace our old power plants.
These are examples to develop the capital of this country for its long-term benefit which should certainly be part of any fiscal plan for both the immediate and the medium-term future. Of course it would be better if a large programme of capital spending could be agreed with other governments. But we could still do a lot of it on our own. A Government whose animating spirit was Lloyd George rather than Boy George would ask the public to subscribe to a national recovery loan of £100 billion, to be spent over five years to equip the UK with a modern transport system, an efficient energy system and a modern school system. To advocate capital cutting at a time of recession is the worst remedy that one could possibly have. It is an insane policy and it will not only destroy the coalition, but it will do enormous damage to the country.
Lord Rosser
My Lords, the financial deficit has to be addressed and it has to be reduced. The question, though, is whether the Budget and this Bill address the deficit in a rational and appropriate manner. The global recession of 2008 was the largest since the end of the Second World War. The global economy fell by 1 per cent, G7 economies by around 3 per cent and world trade by around 12 per cent. It started with a fall in confidence in the American financial system, which led to a collapse in confidence in markets around the world. Since we are a trading nation with a major financial sector, it was inevitable that we would feel the effects more than most.
Despite the difficulties faced, the previous Government took the action to get this country out of the global recession, including steps to ensure that the banking system in this country did not collapse and that, through fiscal stimulus, the impact of the recession on jobs, on homes being repossessed and on businesses going into liquidation was considerably less than nearly all experts had predicted in the light of the depth of the global recession. Unemployment in this global recession is half what it was during the recession of the 1990s, repossessions are 40 per cent lower and company insolvencies are running at about a third of the rate reached in the 1990s recession. The growth figures for the second quarter of this year, published at the end of last week, show that growth in the first quarter—I think that was 0.3 per cent—has been comfortably surpassed in the second, with a figure of just over 1 per cent. In Germany and France, the figures are lower, while some eurozone countries are forecast to see negative growth this year.
The issue is: what will be the impact of the Budget and this Bill on an economy that is beginning to grow its way out of global recession? The omens do not appear particularly good, with significant cuts to public sector jobs on top of reductions in domestic demand—likely under the pending increase in VAT. I was one of those who were sent a letter during the election campaign by Mr Nick Clegg who, under the heading:
“Your choice is between a … Liberal Democrat MP, or the Conservatives”,
told me that:
“Another backbench Conservative MP will simply support VAT increases, an unfair tax rise which hits the poorest hardest, and support cuts in vital services”.
I suppose, in fairness to Mr Clegg, he did not actually say in the letter that Liberal Democrats would not also support them. I suppose that it was just a clever, craftily-worded letter that implied that Liberal Democrats would not, but did not actually make such a commitment.
Already, there are some worrying signs that the Government’s Budget may be putting in jeopardy the recovery in our economy that has been reflected in the growth figures for the past two quarters. If the deficit is cut too fast, output will probably fall and unemployment will rise. If other countries are doing the same, there will also be an adverse impact on the level of earnings and growth from our exports. Indeed, in Germany the Government are proposing a package of budget cuts and tax increases, which will certainly have an impact on their economy. According to the Bank of England, mortgage approvals fell in June, while the consumer confidence index fell and Rightmove has reported that house prices have been cut for the first time this year.
In his opening comments the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, quoted the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. However, it has also said that it expects the UK recovery to be,
“too muted to result in strong job creation”,
and went on to say that unemployment is,
“likely to recede only slowly”.
In the light of the budget cuts, the International Monetary Fund has downgraded its forecast of UK growth.
The Chartered Institute of Purchasing and Supply’s recent services survey showed that business expectations had dropped to a 15-month low, in the single biggest month-on-month fall ever recorded. Perhaps that is not surprising if we have a Government who spend their time talking down the state of the nation’s economy, promise over-the-top cuts in spending and appear to think our economy is in a similar position to that of Greece and other Mediterranean countries—a view, shall we say, not universally held. Our national debt as a proportion of GDP is below that of, for example, France, the United States and Japan.
The previous Government’s deficit reduction plan projected that the deficit would be reduced by around £80 million over the next four years. The Office for Budget Responsibility has said that we were on course to deliver that. Part of the deficit was projected to be closed by the economy returning to growth and thus more in tax coming in and less in benefits going out. However, this Government’s Budget is going to have an adverse impact on growth as the Bank of England’s chief economist said, before going on to comment that for the next three, four, five years demand in the economy will be “incredibly anaemic”.
Even the Office for Budget Responsibility is acknowledging that extra taxes or spending cuts will be necessary to make up for lower growth as a result of the Budget. The Office for Budget Responsibility is very much a creature of the Government as it showed when very conveniently press releases on unemployment figures were moved forward to try to bail out the Prime Minister at Question Time after a leaked Treasury analysis did not quite portray the picture the Government would have wanted. That leaked Treasury analysis showed that the Budget would result in the loss of at least half a million public sector jobs and some 600,000 to 700,000 private sector jobs by the end of this Parliament since much private sector employment is dependent on public sector spending.
The Office for Budget Responsibility then proceeded to tell us that the private sector would create about 2.5 million jobs by 2014 when, according to the Office for National Statistics, in the eight years prior to the start of the recession in early 2008 the private sector created a mere 1.6 million jobs at a time when the economy was doing extremely well. Now, of course, Sir Alan Budd is leaving with a certain degree of rapidity. He was the Government’s darling bud of May who failed to bloom in June and is now doing a bunk this month. Let us hope that the current apparent cosy relationship between the Government and the Office for Budget Responsibility is brought to an end.
So why are the Government pursuing tax rises and spending cuts at a greater rate than is necessary and which puts the rate of recovery at risk and will make things even harder for the less well off? This is a coalition Government of shared values and shared philosophy and that certainly seems to be the case in the desire to minimise the role of both national and local government and effect a major reduction in public services spending. Yet all benefit from the services of central government and their agencies, and local government, but it is those on average incomes and below who benefit the most and will be adversely affected the most.
It would not be politically very acceptable for this Government to say that that is what their version of the big society means to them—a substantial cutting back of the services provided by central government and their agencies and local government and from which so many benefit. Much easier then to overstate the country’s current adverse economic situation and use that as the smokescreen to make the cuts in public expenditure that are part and parcel of this Government’s concept of the big society, where power is retained in Whitehall but every effort is made to pass responsibility and accountability as far down the line as possible for the consequences of how that power is used to cut public services spending.
As the Institute for Fiscal Studies has said:
“We are looking at the longest, deepest sustained period of cuts to public services spending at least since World War II”.
As my noble friend Lord Lea of Crondall has commented, the institute also said that the Budget looked “somewhat regressive”. It also referred to,
“the impact of the looming cuts to public services, which are likely to hit poorer households significantly harder than richer households”.
Not quite the rosy picture of fairness that the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, tried to portray.
The Government claim that we are all in this together, although in what exactly they have never said. Let us just say that thanks to the Budget and this Finance Bill many people are in it rather more than some others and the dividing line appears to be how well off or otherwise people are at the moment. It certainly is not gloom everywhere; the leaders of Britain’s biggest companies have seen their pay and bonuses rise by an average of 5 per cent to more than £3 million over the past financial year, despite a drop in earnings per share. So that is one part of the all that certainly does not seem to be in this together. On top of the extent of the cuts to public services, the rise in VAT, which the previous Government reduced to stimulate the economy, the move from retail price indexation to consumer price indexation and the disproportionate impact of the measures on women and children, to name just three issues, will have much less of an impact on those at the top of the income bands than those lower down. The Budget takes a far higher percentage of income from the bottom 10 per cent than it does from the top 10 per cent.
I hope that the Government will reflect further on this over the summer and at least privately admit, not that no deficit reduction is needed, but that they have gone over the top in the level, speed and nature of the cuts that they have made or are apparently proposing to make and reflect that fact in their decisions on the actual extent of spending cuts still to come. This is no time to take the sort of unnecessary risk with the economy that the coalition Government are taking by seeking to cut the deficit too far, too fast.
Lord Bates
My Lords, it is a privilege to contribute to this debate. We have heard two excellent maiden speeches from my noble friends Lady Browning and Lord Spicer. Although their speeches were very different, they were both accomplished parliamentary performances. They will both be a credit to this House, and we look forward to many more of them.
I was particularly interested in the contribution of my noble friend Lady Browning, who drew on her experience in small to medium-sized enterprises. We have heard some wonderful expositions of macroeconomic theory in this debate—and I mean that genuinely. They have been quite astounding and it has been a privilege to listen to them. But there is also another side to this. I wonder what lessons could be learnt from the small business community, which has been wrestling with exactly the same recession that the Government are now wrestling with, and the same problems. They acted more responsibly. They have been controlling costs, which is the first thing that you can do in a recession, since the onset of the financial crisis two years ago. That lost two years of the Government taking responsive action has meant that the delay has increased the severity of the measures that are necessary to correct the problems that we face. Our costs are too high as a country. I cannot quite understand how it is possible to double public spending over the past two years and double the debt over the past five years but somehow not possible to reduce it by 25 per cent or to reduce government borrowing by a similar proportion. One might begin by simply retracing the steps taken to get us into the situation that we are in.
The responses that a small business might have to this crisis might be, first, to control unnecessary costs. What do I mean by controlling costs? One way in which to control costs in a small to medium-sized enterprise is by reducing complexity, which adds to cost. If you take out complexity, you increase efficiency in the business. One thing that I have been delighted about with the Finance Bill is that it runs to only 26 pages, which is terrific. I dug out from the Library last year’s Finance Bill, which was 167 pages long. Just to add to that, in case there might be a worry that it was not complex enough, 156 pages of Explanatory Notes went with it.
Every time you add complexity into the tax system, into government and into regulation, you immediately add to costs and overheads, because there needs to be people sitting in government departments interpreting what it actually means. It is more difficult to collect revenue from a complex tax system, simply because there are people on the other side who are hiring equally qualified accountants and lawyers to navigate through the same complexity that we are facing. So, complexity adds to cost. Simplicity reduces cost and I therefore pay tribute to my noble friend the Minister for introducing such an efficient Finance Bill to this House and I hope very much that this is a shape of things to come. We must be ruthless in cutting down on unnecessary legislation and bureaucracy, not because of some free-market experiment, but simply because that is the way that we can cut the overheads of government and cut the cost of government without cutting front-line services, which is what we all want to do.
There is another thing that we would do. So far in the debate, some comments have suggested that this is a one-gear approach to tackling the deficit; that all it is about is reducing cost. Of course, it is not about reducing cost, any more than in business it is all about reducing cost. It is about reducing cost, taking out cost, simplifying systems, but it is also about increasing sales, increasing revenue into government.
I am delighted to see a number of things in the Bill which are aimed at stimulating the enterprise economy so that we can actually start increasing sales: the reduction in the small companies rate to 20 per cent, instead of the previous Government’s planned increase to 22 percent from April 2011; the increase in the entrepreneurs’ relief lifetime limit for capital gains tax from £2 million to £5 million, effective immediately; the reversal of the most damaging part of the increase in employer national insurance contributions inherited from the previous Government; the raising of the threshold for national insurance contributions by £21 above indexation; a review of small business taxation, including IR35 regulations, to create a simple, more predictable tax regime. Together, I believe that all these measures will increase our sales as a nation and that has to be important.
Some might say that that sounds a bit simplistic, but a very sophisticated organisation, the World Economic Forum, undertakes an annual assessment of the competitiveness of all the economies in the world. I know that it has been a source of concern to the previous Government as well as to the current Government that the level of competitiveness of the UK economy is falling substantially. What are the criticisms that the World Economic Forum find in our economy, the reason we are tumbling down the league tables? There are four. It identifies, first, access to financing. Secondly, interestingly, it identifies inefficient government bureaucracy. Thirdly, it identifies tax regulations. Fourthly, it identifies tax rates.
That is an independent, credible organisation, undertaking an assessment of all governments around the world and coming out with some pretty clear statements about what it thinks the inherent weaknesses of our economy are. That is why the responses which have been brought forward by the coalition Government are interesting; they chime very much with what the World Economic Forum has found. First, I talked about tax rates and the measures which are being introduced there. I talked about the need for tax simplification and less regulation, a new system of regulatory control whereby Ministers must first show how they will reduce the existing burden of regulation before bringing forward new regulations—what a breath of fresh air. Also welcome is a fundamental review of all regulations that the previous Government scheduled for introduction over the coming year. Regulations will cease to be law after seven years unless Parliament has confirmed that they are still necessary and proportionate and they were explicitly set to have a longer timeframe. There will be a review of all the employment law for which each department is responsible, as well as unnecessary health and safety regulations. The gold-plating of EU regulations will be tackled. I am making the point that when an external audit of the performance of our company—UK plc—points out that there is a real problem with the complexity of the bureaucracy, that will help to reassure, as it relates to one of the responses that we are taking. The lower tax rates will help, too.
My noble friend Lady Browning made an impassioned plea about access to finance, which is a major problem. I see it from two sides. I have seen it on the small business side, where things are tightening up dramatically, but I also spare a thought for the banks, although I know that that may not be the most popular thing to say. The banks have said to me in conversation that the problem is not so much that they are refusing to lend now. The problem relates to the level of anxiousness that, unless there is confidence that the deficit will be tackled—I appreciate that this may not fit with economic theory, but it certainly fits with banking practice—there could be an increase in interest rates. The one thing that is keeping UK plc and many homes, families and businesses afloat is the 0.5 per cent base rate—not that you get it, but it is the base rate from which the premium is operated. Low interest rates are keeping people in their homes by making homes affordable and they are keeping people in their businesses and their jobs. If interest rates were to ratchet up to 5 per cent or 10 per cent as a result of international confidence in the economy decreasing—
Lord Skidelsky
I would not normally interrupt, but is the noble Lord seriously suggesting that markets are likely to price our government debt at 5 per cent or 10 per cent? If so, does he accept that view of the markets? Does he think that it is binding and that we just have to do whatever market sentiment tells us?
Lord Bates
That is a fair point but, in a sense, it does not really matter what the most distinguished economist in the room says about it or what the least distinguished economist in the room—me—says about it. Fitch’s preliminary assessment of the Budget was that,
“it sets out an ambitious deficit reduction path that, if delivered upon, will materially strengthen confidence in UK public finances and its ‘AAA’ status … Taken together, the specific measures announced today are substantial and enhance confidence in the outlook for UK public finances”.
Moody’s Investors Services has said that the UK Budget is “supportive” of the country’s AAA rating. There is that element of international confidence—
Lord Myners
I thank the noble Lord for allowing me to intervene. Is he quoting from the same credit rating agencies that played such a horrible part in the collapse of the banking system through their lack of foresight?
Lord Bates
I am quoting from the same rating agencies that rate government debt and sovereign debt around the world. That is what results in the prices of those debts being traded on the international money markets. The noble Lord, Lord Myners, knows better than anyone about the global flows of international finance. The rating levels are crucial to this, as we see when we look at the situation in Ireland. To stretch the small business analogy to its absolute limits, you can say that international confidence in the Government’s resolution to get to grips with the deficit is analogous to what many companies will have—
Lord Bates
I will just finish this point, if I may. It is analogous to what many companies will find in dealing with their share price. The share price reflects the market’s belief in the Government’s resolution and its confidence in the soundness of the finances. That has a huge impact on the Government’s ability to—
Lord Lea of Crondall
I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. I do not think he has answered the noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky, or my noble friend Lord Myners. Would it be too much of a caricature to say that if we have to believe in voodoo economics, which is what the markets add up to, the logic of the noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky, and my noble friend Lord Myners is of no matter whatever? Do we just have to worship the voodoo economics of the markets?
Lord Bates
I accept these points. All I am saying is that, by arguing the other way, the noble Lord effectively says that there is not the slightest correlation between the ratings of global rating agencies, the level of debt in the economy and the price that we pay for that debt. I find that a more extraordinary position to argue from. I agree that these are contentious matters. What I have tried to set out through my contribution to the debate is that it is a multi-layered and complex subject but, essentially, we need to control costs; introduce simplicity to the system as a mechanism of doing that; increase sales by driving up enterprise; and repair the balance sheet so that the international lenders who are providing the debt have the confidence to continue doing so. I believe that the Government have done that and they have my full support.
Lord Myners
My Lords, it is a pleasure and an honour to speak in a debate which saw the maiden contributions of the noble Lord, Lord Spicer, and the noble Baroness, Lady Browning. They both made excellent maiden speeches and will be considerable additions to House. They come with reputations as fine constituency MPs for Worcester and Honiton, and with specialist expertise in finance and health which will be of great benefit to the House. I crossed swords with the noble Baroness, as she now is, when I was a junior Treasury Minister. She called for my resignation on the grounds that I was slow in answering her letters. I inherited some 3,000 letters when I became a Minister, which I was told was a sign that my predecessor anticipated a forthcoming reshuffle.
The Minister told us that the Budget is tough but fair. Tough it certainly is; fair it is not. The Minister talked about the Budget being progressive but my noble friend Lord Lea of Crondall correctly pointed out that the only progressive elements in the Budget are those which the Government inherited from the previous Administration. As the Institute for Fiscal Studies shows, if you subtract that contribution to the Budget arithmetic from the Budget and the proposals in the Finance Bill, you will find that they are regressive rather than progressive. That trend will continue when we see the forthcoming spending review, to be announced in October. The Minister needs to be careful that he does not represent a Budget as being progressive when it is clearly not the intention of the Government that it should be progressive.
The Minister quoted from my contribution to our last debate on the economy. I stand by my words in that debate. I believe I was summarising what was known at one time as the golden rule, which is that recurrent expenditure by government should be matched by tax revenues through the economic cycle. I believe that that was a good policy. It was unfortunate that, for a period, it was placed in a form of suspension.
The challenge of working out a policy of keeping in balance recurrent expenditure and taxation requires one to look at things from a historic perspective. Therefore, there are always issues of judgment which will be challenging for Ministers. With hindsight, we were perhaps overly accommodating in the Budget strategy in the mid-1990s and failed to recognise the narrowing of the fiscal base. However, I believe that we were right to take the actions which we took once it became clear that the global economy was going into a significant recession, and to promote public expenditure to ensure that the worst effects were ameliorated. I also believe that the previous Administration provided absolutely the right global leadership at the G20 meeting in London in April.
The question the House has to ask itself is whether the Chancellor might now be making mistakes of judgment. The second quarter GDP figures suggest evidence of continuing improvement in economic activity. This is the third quarter during which economic growth has moved forward with developing momentum. Do these figures justify aggressive cutting? The Chancellor may well argue—indeed, he did so on Friday—that the strength of the economy provides further assurance for his programme of expenditure cutting. However, we need to recognise that this recovery is still very nascent. Consumer and business confidence are very low. We are seeing in both consumer and business behaviour a Ricardian equivalent as people again anticipate a setback in economic activity as a consequence of the policies the Government are taking. As a number of noble Lords have mentioned, including my noble friend Lord McFall, Ben Bernanke referred to unusual uncertainty being the prevailing condition in the global economy. That is clearly recognised as well in the minutes of the previous meeting of the Bank of England Monetary Policy Committee. I find it very surprising that the Monetary Policy Committee appears to be considering approaching the Treasury for further support for additional quantitative easing. My understanding is that in the third quarter of recovery it would be most surprising for the Bank of England to consider it necessary to have more quantitative easing. Therefore, I begin to ask myself whether the Bank of England is not concerned about the pace of expenditure cutting which the Government are pursuing, and is seeking to counteract that by a further programme of quantitative easing when we still do not know the true effect of existing quantitative easing.
Without swift and appropriate action and a significant contribution from fiscal policies, we would, of course, have experienced a much more significant depression over the past two years than was the case. We intervened to support the banks. I am pleased to note that the surplus which will arise to taxpayers as a consequence of that support continues to increase, as was evidenced last week by the first report from the Asset Protection Agency, which is now suggesting a further surplus for taxpayers of £5 billion. I look across at the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, who is smiling as he used to ask me how much money was being lost by the taxpayer as a consequence of these interventions. My estimate is that, as a result of the interventions, the taxpayer has a net gain of the order of £15 billion. That is a huge amount resulting from the interventions that we took to support the banking system during a period of acute crisis—and we did so in a way that would deliver value to the taxpayer.
The Government of whom I was part had a plan to halve borrowing as a percentage of GDP over the next four years. We proposed to do that without an unmandated VAT rise and without placing at risk the recovery, the poor, the vulnerable, the unemployed or those who look to the state for assistance and encouragement during a time of global difficulty. This Bill is part of a hair-shirt Budget, but it is not a hair shirt which will be worn by those who buy their shirts in Jermyn Street.
The economy has considerable surplus capacity, as the noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky, observed. We have only to look at the unemployment figures to see that that is the case. Cutting public spending when the economy still has excess capacity and high unemployment is a most unwise thing to do. We as a Government were committed to reducing the deficit but in a way that recognised the risk of setback and was socially just in its implementation. Indeed, the deficit was already falling, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer forecast it would. The cuts the Government propose are borne not out of rigorous economic analysis or designed to produce a better outcome for public finances and the economy but out of political prejudice and a wish to contract the size of the state and its ability to support the wider community.
I have already mentioned declining consumer and business confidence. We also see a slowing in the US and European economy. The banking system is still in poor shape and last week’s EU stress testing will do nothing to restore confidence in it. However, UK banks are well capitalised and we will gain an important inheritance for society in the future as a result of the fiscal consequences of the intervention.
The net effect of the Government’s programmes amounts to a not inconsiderable risk to future economic activity. The first half of this year has seen economic growth picking up. An annualised rate of growth in the second quarter of nearly 4.5 per cent compares with the OBR forecast for this year of 1.2 per cent. Will the OBR issue a new forecast or does it only produce forecasts when asked by Treasury Ministers, and then at short notice if necessary to answer Questions in the other place?
My own view is that quarter 2 GDP figures will be the strongest quarter in 2010. Does the Minister expect economic activity to increase in momentum during the remainder of this year or does he share my view that the quarter 2 figure will be the highest reported? What will the Minister do if things begin to deteriorate and, as a number of noble Lords have suggested, the Government’s policies are seen to be contributing to an economic setback rather than a recovery?
As I have asked before, where does the Minister see the sources of growth for the future? The noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky, shares my view that the argument about squeezing out is simply not economically rational. It is difficult to reconcile the Government’s argument that the public sector is squeezing out private sector investment with the accumulation of a private sector surplus. Businessmen are not concerned about the deficit but with the Government’s withdrawal of support for the economy. The deficit is a consequence, not a cause, of excess capacity.
The Minister needs to address how we exploit comparative advantage. We compete with fast-growing, literate, numerate and young economies in the developing part of the world. Where are we going to compete? The noble Lord, Lord Bates, quoted from the millionaires’ favourite think tank, the World Economic Forum, to suggest that cutting taxes might be the obvious thing to do. We need to identify how we are going to compete effectively in economic terms in the future against these fast-growing economies, in particular those from the eastern part of the world. We need to invest in our workforce and in education and training. We should invest in infrastructure. As the noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky, said, now is the right time to do that because we have excess capacity. We should invest in facilitating the application of new technology and innovation but these are precisely the areas which the Government have picked out for early cuts. The Government are cutting on schools, innovation and technology, and universities. This is absolute nonsense and a huge risk to the economic performance of the country going forward.
I believe that the Office for Budget Responsibility is a commendable idea and it has my support. However, the concept has been damaged by its implementation. I welcome the involvement of the Treasury Select Committee in future appointments to the OBR. I know that the Minister will not make a commitment here in the House but does he believe that the decision that the Treasury Select Committee should have an involvement in appointments to the OBR should be extended to the Monetary Policy Committee and the Court of the Bank of England? If not, why has the OBR been picked out for special treatment and not these other, more important, entities? As my noble friend Lord Barnett pointed out, they have real powers, as opposed to those of the OBR, which are limited to forecasting and commenting on those forecasts.
I invite the Minister to answer a question which I have now been asking him for several weeks: will any action be taken to ensure that those who leave the Office for Budget Responsibility are not allowed immediately to return to the private sector with all the knowledge that they have as a result of their sight of the Government’s economic forecasting and public accounts? I do not suggest for one minute that Sir Alan Budd or anyone else will misuse that information but I am certainly aware that the appearance of the possibility of so doing may further erode what is already a deeply damaged, although good, concept.
There is undoubtedly scope for cutting public expenditure but the proposed level of cuts is draconian. I am not sure that the Liberal Democrats fully understand the extent of those cuts but we have a Liberal Democrat, Mr Danny Alexander, leading the process. In some ways, I wonder whether there might be some method in the Prime Minister’s madness in putting a Liberal Democrat in that position. However, if we are to do this job, why do we not do it well? Why do we not have someone such as Mr Philip Hammond, Mr Michael Fallon or Mr John Redwood as the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, or even the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, who would bring considerable experience rather than the inexperience and naivety of the present incumbent? I worry that Treasury officials have very little experience in the management of the exercise that they are contemplating, and I also worry that there is very little experience among the Treasury Front Bench in respect of public expenditure. I defer to the Minister, who has considerable business experience, but it is striking that no one else in the Treasury team with responsibility for budget management has any experience at all in business management or in dealing with the sorts of issues to which the noble Lord, Lord Bates, referred earlier.
Finally, I want to mention Dr Cable’s comments today on banking, which I thought were quite irresponsible. To suggest that we should give a financial incentive to bankers to lend against their best judgment borders on the reckless and ill behoves a Government who are supposed to believe in private enterprise. I ask the noble Lord to dissociate himself from Dr Cable’s comments in that respect and to make it clear that in his judgment the problems of bank lending are more to do with demand than supply. Furthermore, I ask him to make it clear that bonuses, on which the right honourable Dr Cable has again spoken, are the responsibility of shareholders rather than of the Secretary of State for business.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, there is at least one joy in summing up for the Opposition in a debate that has ranged so widely over such an important issue, and that is to congratulate our two maiden speakers, the noble Lord, Lord Spicer, and the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, on their contributions. I noticed that on this occasion they both eschewed controversy and therefore must feel left out of a great dimension of this debate. However, we know that they will bring their experience of the other place to bear in future debates on these and other issues, and we welcome them to this House.
It is a somewhat invidious role to sum up for the Opposition when everything that can be said and presented as a challenge to the Government has been done so ably from the Benches behind me. However, I want to identify one or two points, which I hope the Minister will address. I noticed from his opening statement that he covered with great thoroughness a good deal of what was in the Budget, and I have no doubt at all that he will address the specific points that his noble friends Lord Northbrook, Lord Blackwell, Lord Higgins and Lord Bates put to him. After all, they have given their full support to his Budget, so he owes them a response to their particular points. I am rather more interested in the narrowness of the presentation that the Minister brought to the Budget, and I want a context. It is from our side—the Benches behind me, and exceptionally from the Cross Benches—that we have had a presentation of the context in which this Budget needs to be placed.
First, I shall respond to the noble Lord, Lord Razzall, the only Liberal Democrat who has contributed to this debate from his lonely eminence. I recognise that there was bound to be a parting shot at VAT and the position of the shadow Chancellor and former Chancellor, Alistair Darling, to cover up the obvious continued embarrassment in the Liberal Democrat ranks at that great poster in which their leader condemned VAT as the unfair, regressive tax that a Conservative Government would bring in if elected. However, the noble Lord, Lord Razzall, was a little more constructive than that. He emphasised that we needed context for this Budget. In particular, he referred to process and the rate at which cuts should be introduced. Some cuts are necessary—no one on this side of the House will deny that—but the extent and pace at which they will be introduced worried the noble Lord, Lord Razzall, and by heavens, they worry a great number of distinguished contributors to the debate.
The noble Lord, Lord Stern, raised the issue in the broader context. How can the Minister persist in this position, as the Government continually do, of addressing the economic problem as just a UK issue? It palpably is not just a UK issue. Debt plagues all the significant economies in the world, as the noble Lord, Lord Stern, identified in his thoughtful contribution. What is more, because debt plagues these countries, the Government have to address themselves to that issue as well. If they are to put all their trust in the private sector and insist that manufacture and services delivered by the private sector will bring the United Kingdom rapidly out of the difficulties that we are in, we want to know in which markets we will flourish. Have the Government not recognised that the German economy is in difficulties, and so too the United States economy? Indeed, the United States is pursuing a strategy that is very different from that of our Government. If there is one ray of hope in the present position, it is that there may be some engine of demand from the United States, which may bring benefits to Europe and the United Kingdom to give us a chance but not because of the Government’s philosophy on this matter.
My noble friend Lord Myners is absolutely right. This is not just a question of identifying a problem and applying a possible solution; it is an opportunity for the Conservative Party, which it is seeking to seize with both hands. It gives the party the chance to elevate the nebulous concept of the big society and to seek to decimate the contribution of the public sector. That is what these cuts are really about. Of course, the noble Lord, Lord Ryder, is absolutely right when he says that the Budget is merely an hors d’oeuvre. It may be hard to swallow, but think of the digestion we have to produce when the comprehensive spending review is revealed in the autumn. That is the ghastly feast that will be laid before the nation, and it will lead to exactly the anxieties that the noble Lord, Lord Stern, first articulated and which were brilliantly developed by the noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky, with all his understanding of these issues.
As the noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky, rightly said, the challenge is not the deficit; the challenge is the problem in the economy. Of course, cuts have their role to play, but investment and building up our capacity is of equal, if not greater, importance. We cannot trust a Government to invest who are, on ideological grounds, hell-bent on reducing the role of the state. The only professional economist, the noble Lord, Lord Desai—I think the noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky, probably rates himself as a professional economic historian, but if he wants to be included with my noble friend Lord Desai in this nomenclature, I am quite happy to include him—indicated that cuts are necessary but also indicated that, in fact, they will not have the immediate impact that could otherwise bring disaster upon the British economy.
Are we to rely upon inadvertency or inefficiency by the Government, or a bad selection of targets, for a delay in the savage proposals they have for the cuts? It will not do. My noble friends Lord McFall and Lord Rosser and other noble friends set out to establish the context in which this Budget is being presented to the British people. It is not a Budget that will solve the problems. It will certainly address itself to aspects of the deficit. None of us is against addressing aspects of the deficit, but that one should put as the sole priority the speed with which one can reduce that deficit is to rate the real economy lowly and to rate the concern of the noble Lord, Lord Bates—the irrationality of the markets—as the only driving force of government policy. If that is the only driving force, we do not need a Government, but we do need a Minister to respond to the challenges of this debate.
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, as I conclude the debate on this Finance Bill—and I note that it is a debate on the Finance Bill, although I am grateful to noble Lords who have contextualised it by talking more widely about the Budget—I thank all noble Lords for their contributions, which have played an important part in scrutinising this legislation. I beg to differ from the view expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, at the outset, that this debate would be a formality. It has been an excellent debate, and I would like to start by drawing attention to the maiden speeches of my noble friends Lord Spicer and Lady Browning. Their contributions did not disappoint. My noble friend Lord Spicer drew important lessons from economic history. He started a bit of a debate with the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, about who had participated in more Finance Bills. I have to confess that I have only part of one to my name so far, but there will be another one later this year, so I will be trying my best to catch up.
My noble friend Lady Browning talked about the important need for financing for small and medium-sized enterprises, which is one key plank of the Government’s focus at the moment. Attention was drawn to this issue by my noble friend Lord Bates and the noble Lord, Lord Myners. In response to points made by my noble friend Lord Higgins and others about the money supply, the proof of the pudding is in the eating—which is partly whether finance does indeed flow particularly into the small and medium-sized enterprise sector of the economy. I remind your Lordships that today the Treasury and BIS, my right honourable friend Dr Cable’s department, jointly published the document Financing a Private Sector Recovery. The noble Lord, Lord Myners, might like to read that as an exposé of government policy in this important area.
The Government have inherited an exceptional fiscal challenge. Within seven weeks of taking office, we have set out a decisive plan for dealing with this challenge. Within 12 weeks we have our first Finance Act in place, legislation which will help to restore our public finances and confidence in our economy. We have also set up the independent Office for Budget Responsibility, which has been much discussed today. The noble Lord, Lord Stern, has today graphically shown why the OBR is so necessary. He speaks in the very guarded language of a former distinguished Second Permanent Secretary to the Treasury and head of the Government Economic Service. When he talks about the way in which revenue forecasts in particular were previously handled by Treasury Ministers and their advisers, and talks in terms of lack of clarity, hopeful judgments and inflated forecasts, I take that as a damning indictment of the way in which Ministers under the previous regime were able to play fast and loose with the data. That approach has made the OBR necessary, and the OBR will not allow Ministers to take such an approach in future.
I very much take to heart the suggestions that the noble Lord, Lord Stern, made about the conduct of the OBR. I note his well-balanced perspective on these issues of independence which other noble Lords seem to have got excessively fussed about in recent weeks. I also note that even the view of the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, on the OBR may be softening a bit. I think that I heard him talk about semi-criticism. He is shaking his head, but if we have got to semi-criticism, we are making progress, and we might have him fully on board very shortly.
As we are talking about the conduct of fiscal policy under the previous Government, I should point out that the noble Lord, Lord Myners, drew attention to the previous fiscal rules, which were open to all sorts of manipulation. The beginning and end of cycles could be changed at the whim of Ministers, and Ministers did so regularly.
The noble Lord, Lord Barnett, also drew attention to the relationship between the Monetary Policy Committee and the Treasury. Even though he attempted to put a completely false construction on my previous answer on this point, I absolutely stand by what I said. I am sorry to disappoint him on that.
Lord Barnett
I pointed out that I was delighted that the Treasury intervenes in the MPC. I asked the Minister to make sure that it intervenes again in the future.
Lord Sassoon
I thank the noble Lord for that. But I did not say that the Treasury intervened at all in the workings of the MPC. It has a representative there to point out policy matters which the Treasury might be aware of or which it thinks the MPC might be aware of. That is not in any sense intervention in the way in which I think the noble Lord means it.
Lord Myners
I fear that the noble Lord is moving on from the OBR, so may I ask him again for a simple and straightforward answer? Are the members of the OBR going to be allowed to return to the hedge funds for which they previously worked immediately on leaving the OBR, or will they be subject to a period of purdah?
Lord Sassoon
I thank the noble Lord, although that was a different point from the one that he made previously; the point that he made in his speech was whether members of the OBR would have inside knowledge of the forecasts. The whole point about the OBR is that it will publish its forecasts transparently. I am not sure what the inside information is that the noble Lord is so concerned about.
Lord Myners
Perhaps I may help the Minister. In his evidence to the Treasury Select Committee, Sir Alan Budd said that he had seen confidential information which was not in the public domain—information which the Minister, given his past City career as a Swiss banker, would no doubt recognise as price-sensitive information.
Lord Sassoon
I look forward to seeing if and when the noble Lord, Lord Myners, returns to the City. There are accepted practices and terms for all who have worked in different parts of the public sector when they return to the City or elsewhere. Perhaps I may move on to talk about the new fiscal mandate.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
If the OBR members have access to confidential information and take that away with them, will it be available to them in their new job a few days after leaving the OBR? The purdah issue is very important. Can the Minister address it?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I believe that I have addressed the point. As with any such office, it would be inconceivable if members of the OBR took confidential information away with them. Just as the noble Lord, Lord Stern, has referred to a report which he compiled for Ministers in 2004 but which he left behind in 2007, it would be extraordinary to suggest that those working on sensitive matters in the public sector would take away secret documents.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
They are taking away information in their head. It is intellectual property; it is not taking away documents. The Minister is being less than open with us if he puts that construction on it.
Lord Sassoon
The OBR receives unpublished information of different kinds and then publishes its forecasts publicly. I should have thought that the information the OBR has is of limited ongoing value. However, I have listened carefully to the points made by noble Lords. As the legislation to set up the OBR on a permanent basis goes through the House, there will be other opportunities for noble Lords to discuss the issue more fully. However, as we are concentrating today on the Finance Bill, perhaps I may move on and discuss matters which are of more direct relevance to that Bill.
I have said, and will return to say again, that the new fiscal mandate will eliminate the deficit in five years and that the bulk of this reduction will come from lower spending rather than higher taxes. However, this autumn’s spending review is not only about cuts and tackling the deficit; it will be a complete re-evaluation of the Government’s role in providing public services. I take the point to which my noble friend Lord Razzall rightly drew attention in our earlier discussions about this. As to the specific point made by the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, even areas which are protected—such as the National Health Service—will be looked at to ensure that administration costs are cut. I agree with the noble Lord that that should be done; the question is where and how such administration cuts should be recycled.
We have set out our steps for tackling the budget deficit and we have done so in a more transparent way than any previous Government. Some noble Lords have argued that, because we have lifted the skirt a bit, they would now like the skirt to be lifted a lot further. However, they do not give us much credit for the greater transparency we have already introduced.
We are on track to have debt falling and a balanced structural current budget by the end of this Parliament. It is only by acting quickly to tackle the deficit and restore confidence in the public finances that we will underpin and achieve economic growth. Action of this kind requires us to take tough decisions. A number of noble Lords have questioned this basic judgment, starting with the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe. I was struck by the intervention from the opposition Benches of the noble Lord, Lord Desai, who did not in any way question the basic Budget judgment and gave a very balanced account. I had a look two or three times at the briefing notes that officials had given me just to check that the noble Lord was sitting on the right Benches, because I thought it was a very balanced account of the judgment that has been taken. And of course there are risks ahead. The basic judgment was questioned by other noble Lords, including the noble Lords, Lord Tunnicliffe and Lord Rosser. We had one quote from the OECD. The one I have to hand is from its Secretary-General, Angel Gurría, who hailed the Budget as a courageous move by the British Government, and said:
“It provides the necessary degree of fiscal consolidation over the coming years to restore public finances to a sustainable path, while still supporting the recovery”.
That is the basic judgment at the heart of the Budget.
The recent G20 communiqué stated that those countries with serious fiscal challenges needed to accelerate the pace of consolidation. The noble Lord, Lord McFall of Alcluith, says that it is the UK Government calling for early fiscal consolidation but it is actually the G20 that is calling for countries such as the UK to get on with it. The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, says that we are not adopting the same policies as certain other countries. Too right. Different countries need to adopt different policies appropriate to their particular circumstances, and our circumstances are regrettably that we inherited from the previous Government the largest budget deficit in Europe except Ireland, and we have to get on and tackle it. The bulk of the deficit reduction will come from lower spending but given the astonishing size of the budget deficit, we have not been able to avoid the need to raise some taxes. My noble friend Lord Higgins asked what increase of revenue there would be in the current and next year. The figures in the Red Book in Table 2.1 on page 40 show that the amounts raised by tax policy decisions in the Budget represent an increase in revenue of £2.8 billion in 2010-11 and £6.25 billion in 2011-12.
The choices that we have now made are ones that face up to the challenges ahead and do not simply defer them to future generations. There has been precious little from the opposition Benches in the way of alternative plans and thoughts as to how we are to deal with it. I welcome the contribution from the noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky, in one respect and that is that he put up a radical alternative vision. It seemed to be founded on the starting premise or assertion that we can continue to push up government borrowing without limit, although even he went on to recognise that certain Governments have got to the limits of what the borrowing capacity of a country can be.
There was an interesting contrast between the contributions from the noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky, and my noble friend Lord Bates. The noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky, postulated what might cause a businessman to invest, but I heard from my noble friend Lord Bates pretty much what I had already scribbled down as what I thought businessmen wanted, which is that they will increase their investment when they have confidence that there will be increasing orders from their customers. I believe that their confidence in their customers will be founded on the customers’ view of whether there is a grip on the economy. Businessmen will look at the level of interest rates and they will want to see them kept low. They will want and need to see credit continuing to flow. They will need to see that government expenditure is under control. They will want to see that regulation is being tackled. They will want to see predictable and falling corporate tax rates. They will want to see that employment taxes are being cut from where the previous Government intended to take them. They will want to see that the Government, in cutting back expenditure, are maintaining investment in those areas of economic growth. These are all things which I see in the total Budget package. I agree with my noble friend Lord Bates on them.
There was discussion about value added tax and, in that context, whether this a progressive or regressive Budget. We are taking responsibility in this Bill for the financial challenges that we have inherited but in a way that is fair and open. Everyday essentials such as food and children’s clothing will remain zero-rated for VAT throughout the Parliament, protecting those on low and middle incomes. Those most affected by the VAT rise will be those who spend the most. This is clear in both government and independent analysis. If one looks at the impact of expenditure by decile, as is appropriate for a tax on expenditure, one sees that the richest pay the most and the poorest least. These points were questioned by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, but were knocked admirably on the head by the noble Lord, Lord Desai, who said that it was wrong to suggest that VAT was necessarily a regressive tax. I do not want bore everybody with more quotes from the IFS, but its view is that total expenditure is the more appropriate guide to lifetime living standards, as households smooth their expenditure over their lifetime. Analysis by expenditure rather than income level is therefore a better measure of the impact of the VAT increase and, on this basis, the VAT increase is progressive.
Other noble Lords made wider points on whether the Budget is regressive or progressive, including the noble Lords, Lord Lea of Crondall, Lord Rosser, and, again, Lord Myners. They questioned whether policies of the previous Government should be included in the assessment. The IFS accepts that, looking at the Budget as a whole, the changes are progressive. It does not make sense, surely, to ignore the policies of the previous Government which the coalition Government have decided to retain and will legislate to implement.
Lord Lea of Crondall
The Minister is rather gratuitously missing the point. The Government have never made that clear when they proclaim that the Budget is progressive. I can make their sums add up to that conclusion only by including the March measures of the Labour Government. That is an astonishing thing to do.
Will the Minister agree to desist from claiming that this Budget has those effects? Does he agree with the Treasury Select Committee that a proper analysis of the income redistribution effects of measures announced this year should include the public expenditure cuts and that they should be looked at together? The noble Lord, Lord Razzall, and I persistently have asked these questions. This is an opportunity for answers. They are serious questions and they need serious answers.
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, given that I have just said that I thought it appropriate for the assessment of the total effect of the Budget to include an assessment of those policies proposed by the previous Government which the coalition Government have decided to retain and will legislate to implement, I am at a bit of a loss to understand the premise of the noble Lord’s question. I am not sure that this stage of the Bill is the point to be going into clarifications of this kind, so, if he will permit me, I will move on.
I turn to the welfare budget. We have to strike a balance between what is right to do with the welfare budget on the one hand and the depth of cuts to public expenditure on the other. If we fully protected the welfare budget, it would force deeper cuts to public spending, which could affect the services on which the most vulnerable in society depend. Refocusing benefits so that they go to those who need them most helps in turn to relieve pressures on front-line spending. I remind noble Lords that 880,000 people on the lowest incomes are being lifted out of income tax entirely.
We also had a certain amount of talk from the noble Lord, Lord Lea of Crondall, about “private sector good, public sector bad”. I want to refute any suggestion that that is the Government’s view. A much more sophisticated and appropriate way to look at it was the approach of my noble friend Lord Blackwell, who pointed out that a situation in which government spending accounted for 48 per cent of GDP was unsustainable. That is the right way to look at it. Private sector growth is absolutely what we need, but the public sector does a very fine job; it is just that we cannot afford a public sector of the size to which it had grown under the previous Government.
Although we probably had enough talk of cake from the noble Lord, Lord McFall, it is a question of the size of the cake, how it is distributed and what we can afford of the cake, not of wholly inappropriate comparisons between one part of it being good and the other part being bad.
Lord Lea of Crondall
On the idea that it is a gross caricature to say, “private sector good, public sector bad”, the Minister’s predecessor on the Conservative Front Bench said that the private sector is productive, the public sector is unproductive. The noble Lord can look at Hansard. I was simply making the point about all the ordering—I mentioned Costain—when it comes to cutting schools and cutting hospitals, and the interdependence of the public and the private sector.
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I fully accept that of course there is huge interdependence between the public and private sectors.
I stress again that the Government’s aim is to make Britain a place where innovation and enterprise can succeed. This is critical. We want to send a clear signal to international business that Britain is once more open for business. Attracting inward investment will stimulate growth and create jobs, and the Budget provides a springboard for a private sector-led recovery, with measures to support business and restore the UK’s competitiveness. These include not only a reduction in corporation tax to 24 per cent, but a reduction in the small profits rate to 20 per cent, an increase in the national insurance contribution threshold for employers and a wide package of support for small businesses. In answer to the specific point raised by my noble friend Lord Northbrook, on the reduction of capital allowances, I can assure and reassure my noble friend that even allowing for reduction of capital allowances and the decrease in annual investment allowances, the next take from corporation tax will be reduced by £1.3 billion per year by the end of the forecast period.
It is right, as set out in the coalition agreement, that capital gains tax should increase in order to help create a fairer tax system. The approach we have taken balances the competing demands of fairness, simplicity and competitiveness and the increase in the rate of capital gains tax will allow this Government to remove almost a million of the poorest people from income tax.
My noble friend Lord Higgins talked about indexation allowances and taper relief. I should point out that indexation allowance for CGT has a substantial Exchequer cost. It cost £1.4 billion in 1997-98 and indexation would add significant complexity to the tax system. Therefore, we do not believe that indexation is justified when CGT rates are well below the top marginal income tax rate and at a period with lower inflation than at a time that indexation allowance was originally introduced.
Lord Higgins
On the point about indexation, to say that it would increase complexity when the Explanatory Notes to the clause as it stands run to six pages is perhaps a little strange. May I pursue with my noble friend the broader point that I raised: is it not important to have a monetary policy that is compatible with the cuts being made? Also, in that context, why does he think that quantitative easing appears not to have had a significant effect on the money supply?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I am not going to answer for judgments that are fundamentally for the Bank of England. It has a very clear monetary policy mandate, which is around keeping inflation low, and through the combination of monetary policy and confidence in the new Government’s fiscal stance we have seen that UK government borrowing rates have indeed remained low, and that the spread against the benchmark of the German Bund has indeed worked in the UK’s favour since the election. That goes to the heart of the nexus between monetary policy, low interest rates and keeping the flow of credit going to businesses and private individuals. I want to move on—
Lord Myners
The Minister spoke on the subject of capital gains tax. Can he confirm whether he stands by his statement, in introducing this debate, that the capital gains tax rate for those on standard-rate income tax will remain at a lower rate of 18 per cent and that a standard-rate taxpayer will not be required to pay a higher rate of capital gains tax?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, I appreciate the nature of the intervention by the noble Lord, Lord Myners, and the Minister has been generous in giving way. The House will understand that the guidance in the Companion is that speeches are normally not expected to exceed 20 minutes. I also understand that this is an unusual debate, because this House has a great interest in but is not permitted to return to this matter at a future stage. I therefore took, perhaps, a sole decision that matters ought to be allowed to continue so that noble Lords could intervene upon my noble friend. I should perhaps indicate that the patience of the House may soon be extinguished and I therefore advise my noble friend that although he may of course respond as he may feel appropriate to the intervention by the noble Lord, Lord Myners, he should then draw his remarks to a close.
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I confirm to the noble Lord, Lord Myners, that the proposals are indeed for an 18 per cent capital gains tax rate and for 28 per cent on those who are on the higher bands for income tax. We have no other proposals. I shall respond briefly to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Desai, about unearned income needing, in his view, to be taxed at rates as high as earned income. Taxing unearned income at lower rates maintains incentives to save and invest, and it is critical that we continue to think about and promote savings and investment in this country. Lower rates for unearned income allow for the fact that income has already been taxed before it is saved. Higher tax rates on savings would lead to high levels of double taxation, which would not be conducive to increasing savings and investment.
One or two comments have been made today about pensions, because the Bill will provide the first step in freeing employers from the complicated and poorly targeted pensions legislation that the previous Government introduced. We will use this power, which expires on 31 December this year, only if a sensible alternative system can be found that provides the same necessary revenue. We will also be clear about the impacts of this alternative, so I am glad that my noble friend Lord Blackwell recognises the benefit of what we are doing. I will certainly make sure that the ideas which he puts forward are fed into our consultation on this issue.
On annuities, the Government, as I have said, will remove the requirement to purchase annuities at 75. In answer, I think, to the point that my noble friend Lord Higgins was making, this Bill brings in transitional provisions that prevent anyone turning 75 on or after Budget day from being disadvantaged by having to make a decision before the new rules are in place. We are consulting on the mechanics of the new system now, and in that context I will make sure that we look at my noble friend’s previous amendments on this subject.
Lastly, I want to do justice to the points that have been made in the debate. If noble Lords will permit me, I will say a couple of words on points that have been raised on the general structure of the tax system. This topic was first brought up by the noble Lord, Lord Stern. The noble Lord, Lord Desai, also made some comments, as did my noble friends Lord Northbrook and Lord Bates. As set out in the coalition’s programme for government, the tax system does indeed need to be reformed to make it more competitive, to make it simpler, to make it greener and to make it fairer.
In addition to structural reform, at the Budget the Government committed to reforming the way in which tax policy is made to restore the UK tax system’s reputation for predictability, stability and simplicity. The Government will consider the conclusions of the Mirrlees review when they are published later this year and, as announced at Budget, the Government are considering improvements to specific green taxes, including changes to the climate change levy and to the aviation tax system. I do not know whether I will be able to get access—I rather doubt it under the arrangements that apply—to the 2004 paper of the noble Lord, Lord Stern, but I hope if he can remember some of the critical ideas in it that he may drop me a line. I remind him and my noble friends Lord Northbrook and Lord Bates that the Office of Tax Simplification has now launched, and it will address the critical issues to which they properly draw attention.
Before we conclude, I will explain briefly how the Government will ensure greater scrutiny of the next two Finance Bills. Given this unusual year, the Government will publish a further Finance Bill in the autumn. I cannot promise my noble friend Lord Bates that it will be as short as this one but it will introduce those measures inherited from the previous Government. For the first time, draft legislation and Explanatory Notes are available on the Treasury website.
To conclude, this Bill sets out our priorities, our vision and a credible path to a sustainable recovery. We are encouraging enterprise and protecting those most in need, yet tackling the stratospheric debt left to us and this country. This Government are taking action where others have not.
Bill read a second time. Committee negatived. Standing Order 47 having been dispensed with, the Bill was read a third time and passed.