Church of Scotland (Lord High Commissioner) Bill
Tuesday 4th March 2025
(1 month ago)
Commons ChamberChurch of Scotland (Lord High Commissioner) Act 2024-26 Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Pat McFadden)
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
I am pleased to open the debate on this Bill, which I hope will have the House’s support. It is a simple, straightforward and clear piece of legislation that seeks to do one simple thing: it will remove a legal barrier that prevents Catholics from holding the office of the Lord High Commissioner to the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland. This historic legal restriction applies only to Catholics; it does not apply to people of other faiths or indeed of no religious faith.
For those hon. Members who are not familiar with the role of Lord High Commissioner—if there are any—perhaps it is beneficial for me to set out some context. The Lord High Commissioner is the sovereign’s personal representative to the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland. They are appointed as an observer to attend proceedings on behalf of His Majesty the King. The General Assembly is the governing body of the Church of Scotland that meets each May in Edinburgh to hear reports, make laws and set the agenda for the Church for the coming year. The ceremonial duties of the Lord High Commissioner include addressing the Assembly at its opening and closing sessions as well as attending the daily business on the sovereign’s behalf. In addition, the Lord High Commissioner undertakes official visits in Scotland as well as hosting engagements at the Palace of Holyroodhouse.
Historical legislation currently prevents the appointment of Catholics to the role: specifically, the Claim of Right Act 1689 set out restrictions against Catholics being appointed to public offices in Scotland, including the role of Lord High Commissioner. Most of that was changed by the Roman Catholic Relief Act 1829, which removed many aspects of religious discrimination towards Catholics. However, it did not explicitly remove the restriction against Catholics holding the office of Lord High Commissioner. That means that a legislative restriction exists to this day against someone of the Catholic faith being appointed to this office. Until now, the issue did not arise because no Catholic was ever appointed to the role, but that position changed in December with the announcement of the appointment of Lady Elish Angiolini. The Bill will allow Lady Elish to take up the role.
There is similarity to the approach adopted in the Lord Chancellor (Tenure of Office and Discharge of Ecclesiastical Functions) Act 1974, which removed restrictions on Catholics taking up the role of Lord Chancellor. The Bill is short—as hon. Members can see—and narrowly focused. It will deliver a small but important modernisation to allow Catholics to undertake the role of Lord High Commissioner.
John Lamont (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk) (Con)
I should declare an interest as a member of the Church of Scotland and an elder of the Kirk. I very much support the Bill, but the Minister will be aware that the Law Society of Scotland has suggested that it would have preferred consultation before the Bill was introduced. Does he have any reflections on that? I think that its particular concern was about wider religious discrimination on the statute book that could have also been dealt with as part of this process.
Pat McFadden
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his support for the Bill. I will come on to the timetable that, by necessity, we have had to adopt.
Legislation of this kind is not always preceded by a consultation. Some hon. Members may remember our late friend David Cairns, whose position in this House was facilitated by legislation removing barriers on ordained priests being elected to the House. As I understand it, that particular piece of legislation did not have a consultation before it either.
I turn to Lady Elish Angiolini, whose appointment as the Lord High Commissioner for this year will be facilitated by the passage of the Bill, if it proceeds. Lady Elish has a distinguished background in law, justice and academia. She was appointed Dame Commander of the Order of the British Empire for services to the administration of justice in 2011. In 2022, she was appointed by Her late Majesty the Queen to the Most Ancient and Most Noble Order of the Thistle, and in that role she participated in the coronation in 2023. Lady Elish has also been principal of St Hugh’s College, Oxford since 2012 and was made a pro-vice chancellor of the University of Oxford in 2017.
The announcement Lady Elish’s appointment as Lord High Commissioner has been widely welcomed in Scotland. The appointment would make her the first Catholic to undertake the role of Lord High Commissioner and would be a significant symbol of unity, good will and collaboration between the Church of Scotland and the Catholic Church in Scotland. It builds on the spirit of the St Margaret declaration, signed at Dunfermline abbey in 2022. That was a historic declaration of friendship between the Church of Scotland and the Catholic Church in Scotland, and the legislation before the House builds on the spirit of that.
The hon. Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk (John Lamont) referred to the circumstances and the timetable. I say to the House that the Bill is on an accelerated timetable, which is necessary to ensure that Lady Elish’s appointment can be finalised ahead of the General Assembly in May. We hope to have all the parliamentary stages completed by the end of next month when, subject to Royal Assent, the formalities of the appointment can begin. That process will include a formal commission for the office, accompanied by a royal warrant, and the speedy passage of the Bill is to allow the formalities necessary to enable Lady Elish to act as Lord High Commissioner and address the General Assembly at its opening and closing sessions in May.
Were the appointment not able to proceed, that would be a setback to recent progress and an outcome that I do not believe anyone wants. I therefore hope that the Bill can proceed today with the support of all parties in the House. While the Bill relates to the reserved matter of the Crown, I have spoken to the First Minister of Scotland and to representatives of both the Church of Scotland and the Catholic Church in Scotland about the Bill and the desire to facilitate the appointment of Lady Elish. I thank them all for their constructive and collaborative approach. I have also had the pleasure of discussing the matter with Lady Elish directly, and I have no doubt that she will be an excellent Lord High Commissioner.
Moving on to the Bill itself, there are two clauses. Clause 1 makes provision to allow a person of the Roman Catholic faith to hold the office of the Lord High Commissioner to the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, and clause 2 sets out the territorial extent of the Bill and its commencement, including that the Bill will commence on Royal Assent. It is a small step to remove a religious barrier. Without it, neither Lady Elish nor any other Catholic could take up the appointment by the sovereign. The Bill changes that and ensures that the announced appointment can go ahead. It is short and simple, but still in its own way an important Bill. I hope it will receive a broad welcome, and I commend it to the House.
Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (Con)
It is a pleasure to rise to speak in this debate. In fact, it is a genuine pleasure to be speaking, as a member of the Church of Scotland, on an historically significant piece of legislation. It could be argued that this is the latest piece of the work that was begun with the passing of the very legislation that it seeks in part to repeal—the Roman Catholic Relief Act 1829—to ensure full equality for Catholics in our public realm.
I grew up not quite a son of the manse—it was three doors down—but very much in and around the kirk, and in eight years as a Member of this place, this is the first debate on any issue regarding the governance or affairs of the Church of Scotland that I can remember. Given that it relates to one of the two established Churches of our United Kingdom, that is on the one hand surprising, especially when compared with the hours we spend debating governance and issues pertaining to the Anglican Church. But then, its privileged status as the established Church in Scotland—underpinned by the Acts of Union and the Protestant Religion and Presbyterian Church Act 1707—means that since 1921, when the Articles Declaratory of the Constitution of the Church of Scotland formed part of the Church of Scotland Act 1921, it has not required any UK or Scottish parliamentary oversight regarding church worship, governance, constitution, membership or office bearers. This makes today an even more significant moment in the history of the Church and the nation, so infrequently are matters of the Kirk discussed on the Floor of either of Scotland’s two Parliaments.
Our relationship between Church and state in the United Kingdom is a brilliantly fashioned piece of British pragmatism—or possibly a fudge, as some might describe it. Only in Great Britain could we have a Head of state who, while being Supreme Governor of one established Church, the Anglican Church of England, is also an ordinary member of a completely separate Presbyterian Church, the Church of Scotland. But we do, and no questions are asked. It is a piece of ecclesiastical deftness that would be inconceivable in any other country. However, I think we would all agree that it was carried out with ease by the late Queen Elizabeth, who demonstrated her commitment to, interest in and knowledge of both Churches throughout her reign—an interest, passion and dedication now matched by our King.
Today, we see another brilliant piece of British pragmatism in what we are about to legislate for. To many in the outside world, the appointment of the brilliant Dame Elish Angiolini to one of the most significant roles in Scottish public life will rightly be seen as a well-deserved honour for one as successful as she has been in her field and in Scottish and British public life. When we think about it, however, it remains quite incredible that a practising Roman Catholic will represent our Protestant monarch, whose very first act as King, in accordance with the Act of Succession, was to take an oath to
“inviolably maintain and preserve the Settlement of the true Protestant Religion as established by the Laws made in Scotland in prosecution of the Claim of Right and particularly by an Act intituled ‘An Act for securing the Protestant Religion and Presbyterian Church Government’”.
Rightly, no questions will be asked about her appointment.
There may in fact be some who question the appointment, but I think it speaks well to us as a nation—our two nations—that we are so relaxed about such an appointment today. It speaks to just how much Scotland has changed. I wonder if the Scotland of my grandfathers’ time—both of whom were born in Glasgow in the 1920s and both of whom went on to be Kirk elders—would have been as relaxed about such an appointment. Bear in mind that the Church of Scotland was formed out of the blood and fire of the Scottish reformation, with John Knox in his revolutionary zeal creating the only truly national Calvinist church. It dominated public life for centuries: for better, especially in the realm of public education; and for worse, given that for too long it excluded all other forms of Christianity and adherence to anything but the Kirk’s form of Christianity from most positions of influence in public life in Scotland. The songs still sung at certain football grounds between fans of certain rival teams speak to a more difficult time in the history of Scotland and indeed the Churches in Scotland—one that, sadly, has not totally been consigned to the history books.
Scottish public life was until incredibly recently dominated by the Kirk. Its General Assembly was covered in the same way as the sitting of a Scottish Parliament—at that point not in existence—would have been. Its membership when I was born in the mid-1980s sat at around 1 million people, and its presence touched the lives of a great many more. It had daily five-minute slots on Scottish television, with “Late Call” being parodied so well by the late great Rikki Fulton, as well as the Boys’ Brigade and the Women’s Guild. So many people had so much interaction with the Church, but Scotland has changed, and in many ways for the better.
In many ways, however, the changes in Scotland have presented challenges for the Church. Church membership, which was just shy of 1 million when I was born, sits now at just over 200,000. The General Assembly, which for many years sat as the one national forum in Scotland at which issues of importance to people across Scotland could be aired in public and debated, was covered as a sitting of a Parliament would be. Since the creation of the Scottish Parliament, it has not engaged the same media interest as it did in the years preceding 1999. The decline in numbers entering the ministry and the reduction in footfall in church buildings across the country have led to difficult—at times, heartbreaking—decisions being taken to sell buildings and reduce the Church estate.
Yet there are huge positives as well. In recent decades, we have seen the Kirk move with the people of Scotland and modernise. It allowed women to be ordained back in 1968, some 24 years before the Church of England did likewise, and that led to huge growth in the number of women in leadership roles in the Church. The Church has had multiple female Moderators of the General Assembly, the first being Alison Elliot in 2004. In 2015, the Church allowed congregations to appoint ministers who were in same-sex marriages or civil partnerships. That was followed by it officially approving those marriages, and it allowed ministers to conduct them in 2022. Whether it is through traditional church services, outreach in communities across Scotland and Europe, the Guild, CrossReach, or missionary work across the world, the Church of Scotland continues to touch and guide our national life in many ways.
Religion in Britain is a funny thing. On the one hand, we famously “don’t do God.” On the other, we have prayers before every meeting of our national Parliament. On the one hand, unlike other countries, we treat our religion as private. On the other, bishops of one of our established Churches sit in one of our legislatures, and our Head of State is the supreme governor of one of our two established Churches. What we are doing today will baffle most of those watching our proceedings, not least those who do not know that there are two established Churches in the United Kingdom, but it is important, and it has the official Opposition’s full support. It is a significant gesture of good will and unity between two of Scotland’s largest Churches, and builds on the St Margaret declaration of friendship between the Catholic Church in Scotland and the Church of Scotland in 2022. It is yet another display of fantastic British pragmatism, and the sensibleness that has underpinned how Churches and the state have interacted over centuries.
It only remains for me, on behalf of His Majesty’s official Opposition, to wish the new Lord High Commissioner well in her role; to thank the outgoing Moderator of the Church, Dr Shaw Paterson, for his service over this year; to wish the Moderator Designate, Rev. Rosemary Frew, well as she takes up the role; and to wish all those attending the upcoming General Assembly wisdom and patience as they deliberate on matters that mean so much to the national life of Scotland.
Alison Taylor (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab)
Like so many in my constituency and across Scotland, I have a lifelong association with the Church of Scotland. For so many of us in Scotland, the stories of our families are intertwined with local Church of Scotland parishes, not just through attendance at church on a Sunday, but through our marking of important life events. That link is evidenced in so many ordinary aspects of community life—at local badminton club meetings in the church hall, and at summer fêtes, jumble sales and coffee mornings.
The Church belongs to all our communities. It assists the elderly and frail in the community, supports young mothers, runs youth clubs, and makes commitments to international aid. My great aunt was an organist in the church in Bishopton, and in Paisley in my constituency. My two children were baptised in the Church of Scotland in Paisley, and my husband and I were married in Drumclog memorial kirk in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for East Kilbride and Strathaven (Joani Reid).
My sense of belonging to the Church of Scotland is no barrier to my appreciation of other faiths and other Christian communities. Indeed, the Church of Scotland has demonstrated a sincere commitment to ecumenical dialogue. The Catholic Church has been a willing and active participant in that effort. For more than 40 years, that has led to a shared commitment to people from all faiths and none working together, notably in food banks and many other community support services.
I know that my life is enriched by friendship with people of other faiths; the Church of Scotland has been similarly enriched. Today, for historical reasons that may seem odd to those following the debate, there is a legislative restriction on a person of the Roman Catholic faith being appointed Lord High Commissioner by the sovereign to act as an observer on the sovereign’s behalf. Such restrictions do not apply to people of others faiths, or indeed to those of no faith.
A change in the legislation is long overdue. I am pleased to support the Government in removing this unnecessary and unwelcome impediment to a Roman Catholic serving as the representative of His Majesty the King at the upcoming General Assembly of the Church of Scotland.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson.
Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)
It is a delight to follow the hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Alison Taylor). In the almost eight years that I have been here, I do not think I have ever looked forward to a debate this much, or taken this much pleasure from one, not just because there is no real party divide to worry about, but because it feels as if the Church of Scotland—of which I was, but am no longer, a member—is finally standing up for the sort of Scotland that we all want to see and work towards.
I am no longer a member of the Church, but I was for many years, and my late husband was an elder in the Kirk, not so very far from the constituency of the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Andrew Bowie). The Church is still a huge part of community life in Scotland. The fact that it has taken this long to overturn the injustice of the Roman Catholic Relief Act 1829—a piece of discrimination against Roman Catholics—is something that we should bear in mind, and we should promise never to allow this to happen again. Although it is important that we get this legislation through quickly, so that we can appoint Lady Elish Angiolini, I hope that we address the wider discrimination left in Scottish society.
This is an important day. Lady Elish has been a role model for so many young women in Scotland. She was the first female Solicitor General, Lord Advocate and Lord Clerk Register, and, as the Minister mentioned, she has been the principal of St Hugh’s College, Oxford, since 2012. The fact that she will be the first Roman Catholic to hold the post of Lord High Commissioner is significant, and further enhances her position as a role model. Everyone I have spoken to from the Church is delighted that she will be in position. We Liberal Democrats completely support the Bill, and hope that it goes through quickly.
Patricia Ferguson (Glasgow West) (Lab)
The fact that in 2025 we can say that no Roman Catholic has ever held the post of Lord High Commissioner seems slightly absurd. There are, of course, other positions in this nation that a Catholic has never occupied and, as matters stand, can never occupy. It is good that we can break down one of those barriers today and reflect the extremely friendly relationship between the Catholic Church in Scotland and the Church of Scotland—and indeed, through the interfaith council, the Church’s relationship with other faiths, too. The change is also a mark of the high regard in which people of good will hold Lady Elish Angiolini, and of the many qualities that make her a fitting representative of His Majesty.
As we have heard, by convention, the sovereign is not normally present at the General Assembly, as he or she is technically an ordinary member of the Church, not its supreme governor, as he or she is in England. Traditionally, the Lord High Commissioner represents the sovereign, and is an observer appointed under the royal prerogative, so, as we know, there is no need for parliamentary approval of the appointment, or for legislation. As the Lord High Commissioner is a representative to the General Assembly, rather than part of the assembly, it is not necessary for them to be a member of the Church of Scotland, or indeed of any other church. However, the legislation that we are considering is necessary because the holder of the office cannot currently be a Roman Catholic.
The Scottish Claim of Right Act 1689 set out restrictions on Catholics being appointed to public office. Paragraph 19 states:
“That by the law of this Kingdome no papist can be King or Queen of this realme nor bear any office whatsomever therin”.
Those are harsh words, if I may say so. The Roman Catholic Relief Act 1829 was the culmination of a long process, working towards giving Catholics relief from the many restrictions imposed on them in Great Britain and Ireland prior to the Union of 1801. However, although that Act retained some restrictions on Catholics, most of which have since been repealed, some significant ones remain. That is what we wish to amend today.
As the Law Society of Scotland has suggested, it is unfortunate that the Bill cannot also be amended to remove the reference to the Lord High Chancellor from the Roman Catholic Relief Act 1829, so that the 1829 Act can be brought into conformity with the Lord Chancellor (Tenure of Office and Discharge of Ecclesiastical Functions) Act 1974.
There is clearly a long history surrounding the appointment, with the first Lord High Commissioner having been appointed in 1580. In the intervening five centuries, significant people have held the post, including a number of former colleagues of mine, and of the hon. Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk (John Lamont), and including Lord James Douglas Hamilton, Lord Wallace, Lord Steel and George Reid. Colleagues might have spotted that they have something in common: they were all men. It was not until 1970 that the late Peggy Herbison, a former MP, was appointed the first female Lord High Commissioner. We then had to wait another 24 years, until the appointment of Lady Fraser, for the second. Since then, the Princess Royal has held the post twice, and it would be good to think that, following Lady Elish’s appointment, we might see woman appointed more regularly.
The appointment is expected to be made, we are told, on the basis of the merit and contribution to society of the appointee, and Lady Elish certainly qualifies on both counts. I should declare an interest: I have known Lady Elish since we were both teenagers and members of our respective schools’ debating societies. She was very much better than I was, and even then, it was clear that she was destined for a very significant future. I also served in Government with her when she was appointed by First Minister Jack McConnell as the first female Solicitor General. Elish went on to become the first female Lord Advocate. She held both positions with distinction and was highly regarded during her time in office. Since then, she has served in a number of legal posts, and is currently the principal of St Hugh’s College, Oxford, and Pro-Vice-Chancellor of the University of Oxford. She is also the first woman to hold the position of Lord Clerk of Scotland, another first for a woman. Significantly, she chaired the public inquiry into the abduction, rape and murder of Sarah Everard. We can safely say that Lady Elish is an outstanding candidate for the post of Lord High Commissioner.
As I mentioned in opening, it is regrettable that in 2025 we still have such laws on the statute book, but ironically the relationship between the two Churches is in very good heart. The signing of the St Margaret’s declaration in 2022 by the Moderator and Archbishop Cushley, the representative of the Catholic bishops conference, seeks to build on the common heritage of the two denominations in the Christian tradition. It recognises that divisions are still present, but seeks to mend those divisions and to focus on what the Churches have in common. With the passing of the Bill today and the appointment of Lady Elish to the post of Lord High Commissioner, we take another welcome step on the journey to ecumenicalism.
Brendan O’Hara (Argyll, Bute and South Lochaber) (SNP)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Glasgow West (Patricia Ferguson). Of course we welcome the Bill, and the Government can be assured that we will do whatever we can to assist its progress through the House, but as we have heard from many hon. Members, the fact that in 2025 the United Kingdom is still having to introduce legislation to remove anti-Catholic legislation from the statute book is pretty embarrassing. That people of the Roman Catholic faith are still explicitly legally barred from holding the position of Lord High Commissioner of the Church of Scotland—a post that can be held by people of all other faiths and those with no religious belief—is nonsense.
I do not blame the Government or the Minister one iota. I am quite sure that they were as surprised as anybody when, after having appointed Lady Elish Angiolini to the office of Lord High Commissioner, one of their lawyers appeared, blowing the cobwebs off the 1829 Act, to reveal the flaw in their plan. That does not take away from the fact that it is ridiculous that two centuries after the Act was passed, the Government are still having to introduce these narrowly focused Bills to correct historical wrongs as and when they appear.
While I can understand that the Government were caught on the hop with regard to this particular appointment, I share the frustrations of the hon. Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk (John Lamont), who wondered whether it would not be better to bundle all this legislation together and remove all existing anti-Catholic discrimination, rather than just doing it piecemeal as and when circumstances arise. That may well not have been possible on this occasion, given the time constraints of Lady Elish’s appointment, and so the Government are having to get around the problem in this fashion, but I hope that we never again find ourselves in this situation and that the Government will find time to bring forward legislation that, once and for all, removes all traces of anti-Catholic discrimination from UK law.
Were the Minister to approach his boss with such a proposal, I suspect that he would receive a fair hearing. As far back as 2002, an aspiring young barrister—now the Prime Minister—writing in The Guardian, described the UK’s remaining anti-Catholic laws as “deeply offensive” and an offence to multicultural Britain. Should such a Bill be introduced, I would like to think that it would pass through this House quickly and without too much opposition.
It is important to point out that this situation has nothing whatsoever to do with the Church of Scotland, which, to its enormous credit, has viewed the appointment of Lady Elish to the post of Lord High Commissioner as completely uncontroversial. The Rev. Fiona Smith, principal clerk of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, has said:
“We are honoured that His Majesty has appointed Lady Elish Angiolini as Lord High Commissioner…We very much look forward to welcoming her to the General Assembly.”
As others have mentioned, that is a remarkable transformation, because not so long ago the idea of a Catholic female, particularly one of Irish descent, being the sovereign’s official representative in the Church of Scotland would have been unthinkable to many in this Kirk.
Although I do not think that the Minister was there personally, I am sure he will remember that it was only in 1923 that the infamous report entitled “The Menace of the Irish Race to our Scottish Nationality” was presented to the General Assembly, so the appointment of a Catholic woman as Lord High Commissioner being welcomed by the Church of Scotland is a wonderful example of how far Scotland as a nation has travelled in recent decades.
As the Minister has said, and as others have repeated, it should come as no surprise to any of us that if there was a trail to blaze, Elish Angiolini was the person who was going to blaze it. Born Elish Frances McPhilomy in Glasgow and educated at Notre Dame high school and the University of Strathclyde, she became one of Scotland’s most prominent lawyers, serving as Solicitor General, as we have heard, before becoming Lord Advocate. She served under both Labour and SNP Governments at Holyrood between 2006 and 2011, before being appointed to St Hugh’s College the following year.
Lady Elish remained prominent in public life; as we have heard, she chaired several Government inquiries into deaths in police custody and the investigation and prosecution of rape. In 2020 she published a report on her review of the handling of complaints against Police Scotland, before becoming chair of the board of trustees at Reprieve, a charity made up of lawyers, investigators and campaigners fighting for justice for people facing human rights abuses, often at the hands of powerful Governments.
As if to cement her trailblazing reputation, in October 2023 Lady Elish became the first woman to be sworn in as the new Lord Clerk Register of Scotland—one of the oldest remaining great offices of state, with origins going back to the 13th century. Given the circumstances, I do not think that there could be a more appropriate appointment to the role of Lord High Commissioner of the Church of Scotland than that of Elish Angiolini, but, as I have said, it is deeply regrettable that because of her religious beliefs, we have had to pass a Bill in this House to allow it to happen.
Finally, given that this Bill is welcome but long overdue, I am delighted to inform the Government that should Lady Elish decide not to take up the role for any reason whatsoever, from this day on I, too, am available for selection.
John Grady (Glasgow East) (Lab)
The hon. Member for Argyll, Bute and South Lochaber (Brendan O’Hara) has provided a most eloquent job application.
I was very pleased to read of the upcoming appointment of Lady Elish Angiolini. Not only would Lady Elish be the first Roman Catholic to hold the office of Lord High Commissioner, but she is incredibly well qualified—speaking as a recovering Scots lawyer, someone who has held the posts of Lord Advocate and Solicitor General with such accomplishment is clearly incredibly well qualified for the role. She is an example, as are some Members of this House, of the excellent education you can get from state schools in Glasgow.
The current law means that, at present, a Roman Catholic cannot be Lord High Commissioner. The Bill removes the legal impediments to that, and therefore I fully support it. Lady Elish Angiolini is a practising Roman Catholic, and much work has been done to build closer links between the Catholic Church in Scotland and the Church of Scotland, including the St Margaret declaration signed in 2022. However, as importantly—if not more importantly—much work has taken place between local Catholic and Church of Scotland congregations. I have seen much of that work in Glasgow at first hand, pretty much every Sunday, and it is an absolute joy to behold.
More widely, Lady Elish’s appointment is another very good example of the progress made between the two Churches. She has said the following of her appointment, which is something quite profound that we in this House should pause and reflect on:
“It is really important that people of all religions and faiths come together. The world is a scary place these days and it is important that people of all faiths meet, share, and promote peace and harmony. This is a good example of that.”
I could not agree more.
I say that this Bill is important, because it is a demonstration of people of different religions and faiths coming together in Scotland and putting aside their differences. In Glasgow, in Scotland and across our family of nations, people of different faiths, and of no faith, work very well together for the good of our communities. In Glasgow, we see many examples of that. We have one of the oldest Muslim populations in Scotland, which gives greatly to people in Glasgow; we have a vibrant Sikh population, which dedicates itself to the service of the poorest in Glasgow; and the annual Holocaust memorial lecture at the University of Glasgow brings large and diverse audiences, including many of our Jewish brothers and sisters, to reflect on the terror of the Holocaust. People in Glasgow and in Scotland work hard to understand each other, and religious diversity is a source of joy, energy, strength and beauty in Glasgow’s 850th year. The appointment of Lady Elish is a profound moment in this year.
All this speaks to the words of the St Margaret declaration:
“what we hold in common is often greater than what divides us.”
In these times, as Lady Elish suggests, it is important that we redouble our efforts for dialogue and understanding between people of faiths, as well as people of no faith. At this moment, we should also celebrate the real progress we have made in that regard across our family of nations. This Bill is one very good example, and I for one am proud to live in a family of nations that has had a Muslim First Minister and a Hindu Prime Minister. I am proud to see this Bill make progress through this House.
The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Mr Douglas Alexander)
It is a genuine pleasure to close this important debate. I should begin, as others have done, by declaring an interest, in that I myself am a member of the Church of Scotland. I give my thanks to hon. Members on both sides of the House for their thoughtful, measured and constructive contributions, in addition to their substantive support for this worthwhile piece of legislation.
As we have heard from my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, this important Bill will facilitate the appointment of Lady Elish Angiolini as the first Roman Catholic to hold the historic office of Lord High Commissioner. The Bill will put an end to the statutory constraint that prevents someone from being appointed to that position solely on the basis of their religion. In this debate, we have heard a number of views and contributions from hon. Members, to which I will now turn.
First, I thank the shadow Secretary of State for Scotland, the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Andrew Bowie), for both his substantive support and the spirit of his speech to the House today. When it comes to the ecclesiastical deftness of which he spoke, the appropriate acknowledgment of the Kirk’s place in our national life is surely more tablet than fudge—by which I mean tablet, rather than The Tablet, the esteemed Catholic newspaper. In all seriousness, the powerful case he made for ecumenical understanding in modern Scotland was well judged and surely commands support across the House. As he stated, thankfully Scotland has changed. As a fellow communicant member, he spoke with knowledge, understanding and empathy of the Kirk’s continuing work and witness, guiding our national life.
My hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Alison Taylor) spoke movingly of the huge contribution made by the Church of Scotland, not just in the now renamed Clyde presbytery, but in local parishes right across our nation. I can personally attest to that. My grandfather, the Rev. Douglas Alexander, was a parish minister in Eaglesham in East Renfrewshire, and my father—also the Rev. Douglas Alexander—was, as my hon. Friend knows, a parish minister in Bishopton. She spoke of her family ties there, and I am proud to say that Bishopton is now in her constituency. My father served in that parish for almost 30 years. It is right to recognise the huge contribution of the Kirk to the life and work of communities right across our nation, and I am happy to do so from this Dispatch Box today.
The hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Christine Jardine) brought a zest and enthusiasm to this debate that I had not fully anticipated, but it seems merited in the light of the contributions we have heard. As the Liberal Democrat spokesman for Scotland, she described this Bill accurately as an action standing up for the Scotland that we all want to see. That is a sentiment with which we would all surely agree. She also spoke generously and accurately about Lady Elish Angiolini’s genuinely pioneering role in our national life. That is a sentiment with which we would concur on this side of the House.
My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow West (Patricia Ferguson) brings to this House her experience of serving in the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Cabinet. That experience was reflected in her remarks in this Chamber this afternoon, where she spoke with warmth and insight—in part born from a similar schooling at Notre Dame—about the suitability of Lady Elish Angiolini for the high office of Lord High Commissioner. I thank my hon. Friend for sharing those insights, and I concur with her view that Lady Elish is indeed very well qualified for the role.
My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow West made an observation about why this Bill does not remove the reference to the Lord High Commissioner from the Roman Catholic Relief Act 1829. I can offer her the assurance that that was made obsolete by the 1974 Act. While I can understand the desire for legislative tidying-up, the scope of this Bill is necessarily limited to the role of the Lord High Commissioner, and the position is clear: following this Bill, there will be no restriction on a Catholic holding either role.
The hon. Member for Argyll, Bute and South Lochaber (Brendan O’Hara) offered his support and that of this party for the Bill, and we are grateful for that. Cross-party support in this House is a powerful symbol of our shared commitment to cross-denomination and cross-faith understanding in modern Scotland. He rightly recognised the time constraints under which we are necessarily operating today to ensure that Lady Elish Angiolini can take up this office in time for the gathering of the Kirk’s General Assembly in the spring. Despite smuggling into his speech a late and, I have to say, rather unexpected job application, he rightly recognised Lady Elish’s cross-party credentials as a genuine trailblazer in Scottish national life.
My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow East (John Grady) described with characteristic eloquence how, to quote him, people in Glasgow
“work hard to understand each other, and religious diversity is a source of joy, energy, strength and beauty in Glasgow’s 850th year.”
In that, he is correct. I should perhaps declare another interest, in that Glasgow is the city of my birth, but it is right to recognise that after an at times troubled history of sectarian and religious intolerance, today people make Glasgow, and those people are comprised of all faiths and none. I thank my hon. Friend for his powerful advocacy for dialogue and understanding, which brought to mind Jo Cox, lately of this House. I thank him for his understanding and contribution to the debate today. His speech was very much in keeping with the spirit of the St Margaret declaration.
The debate has indicated that there is support for this legislation across the House. I look forward to hearing further from hon. Members in the remaining stages of the Bill, due to follow shortly. With the support of the House, I commend this Bill to the House.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a Second time; to stand committed to a Committee of the whole House (Order, this day).
Church of Scotland (Lord High Commissioner) Bill
Tuesday 4th March 2025
(1 month ago)
Commons ChamberChurch of Scotland (Lord High Commissioner) Act 2024-26 Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Chairman of Ways and Means (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
I remind Members that in Committee they should not address the Chair as “Madam Deputy Speaker”. I ask them please to use our names; alternatively, “Madam Chair” or “Madam Chairman” is acceptable.
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Mr Douglas Alexander)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Ghani.
I hope that I will not detain the Committee for long in dealing with the two clauses. The purpose of clause 1 is to make provision to allow a person of the Roman Catholic faith to hold the office of Lord High Commissioner to the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland. The Lord Chancellor (Tenure of Office and Discharge of Ecclesiastical Functions) Act 1974 removed restrictions on individuals taking up the office of Lord Chancellor, and, similarly, the Bill removes the restriction on the Lord High Commissioner from the Roman Catholic Relief Act 1829. Clause 2 sets out the extent, commencement and short title of the Bill: it extends to England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. It will come into force on Royal Assent, which will ensure that the upcoming appointment of Lady Angiolini as the Lord High Commissioner goes ahead in the run-up to the General Assembly in May.
It is clear that the Bill commands a broad consensus, and I am grateful to colleagues for their approach to it. I look forward to the rest of the debate today, and to seeing the Bill on the statute book soon.
Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (Con)
I, too, will not detain the Committee for long, having already expressed the full support of His Majesty’s official Opposition for the Bill, and it will come as no surprise that we are not proposing any amendments in Committee. I do, however, have two questions for the Minister. When does he expect the Bill to go to the House of Lords, and can he assure the Committee and, indeed, the Church of Scotland that everything possible will be done to secure its swift passage to Royal Assent so that it is passed in time for the upcoming General Assembly of the Church of Scotland?
Mr Alexander
I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we want progress to be expeditious. I shall be happy to write to him once we know the exact date on which it will be introduced in the House of Lords, contingent on support in this Chamber today, but I can assure him that, as the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster made clear, we have been engaging in regular dialogue with the Church of Scotland and the other relevant offices, and we have every confidence, on the basis of the support we have seen today and will hopefully see in the other place, that we will be able to provide a timetable ensuring that Lady Angiolini is able to take up her position by the time of the General Assembly in May.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 1 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair.
Bill reported, without amendment.
Third Reading
King’s consent signified.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Pat McFadden)
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
Given the mood in the House, I do not intend to detain people for long. By now we know the purpose of the Bill: to allow Catholics to be appointed to the role of Lord High Commissioner to the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland. That is the Bill in a nutshell. Today’s debates have demonstrated that there is wide support for the Bill across the House.
I thank the Church of Scotland, the Catholic Church and the Scottish Government for their engagement and collaboration in the development of the legislation. I also thank all those who spoke in our debates, including the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Andrew Bowie), my hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Alison Taylor), the hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Christine Jardine), my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow West (Patricia Ferguson), the hon. Member for Argyll, Bute and South Lochaber (Brendan O’Hara), my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow East (John Grady) and my right hon. Friend the Minister of State for the Cabinet Office. I am grateful to all of them.
As we have said, at the signing of the St Margaret’s declaration at Dunfermline abbey in 2022, both the Catholic Church and the Church of Scotland declared that what they hold in common is far greater than what divides them, and that they would commit to continue working towards greater unity. I hope that this Bill, in its small way, will continue in that spirit.
The hon. Member for Argyll, Bute and South Lochaber referred to 1923 and asked if I was there. I was not there, but in the same year W. B. Yeats wrote that “peace comes dropping slow”. Maybe equality sometimes comes dropping slow too, but today we have taken a small and important step, and I commend the Bill to the House.
Andrew Bowie
I would like to record the thanks of the Opposition to those who have made possible this Bill, which will hopefully soon become an Act, and to Members from across the House for their contributions. I am grateful for the engagement with the Church of Scotland, the Catholic Church and Lady Elish herself.
I think we can all agree that the Bill is a positive step and speaks well to the type of country that Scotland is today, which was certainly not the case 100 years ago. I express yet again my best wishes to the new Lord High Commissioner to the General Assembly, and to all those attending its deliberations in its upcoming meeting in May.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.
Church of Scotland (Lord High Commissioner) Bill
Wednesday 5th March 2025
(1 month ago)
Lords ChamberChurch of Scotland (Lord High Commissioner) Act 2024-26 Read Hansard Text
Church of Scotland (Lord High Commissioner) Bill
Wednesday 19th March 2025
(2 weeks, 3 days ago)
Lords ChamberChurch of Scotland (Lord High Commissioner) Act 2024-26 Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Smith of Basildon
That the Bill be now read a second time.
The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Smith of Basildon) (Lab)
My Lords, the Church of Scotland (Lord High Commissioner) Bill is a short but important piece of legislation that removes a legal barrier preventing Roman Catholics holding the office of the Lord High Commissioner to the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland. This historic legal restriction applies specifically to Roman Catholics and not to people of different or no religious faith.
For noble Lords who may not yet be acquainted with the role of the Lord High Commissioner—although I suspect from looking around the Chamber that most noble Lords know more than I do, even though my mother is Scottish and Church of Scotland—I shall try to shed light on the position. I note that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, who will speak later today, held that office between 2015 and 2016, being appointed by Her late Majesty Queen Elizabeth II. I hope he will bear with me while I provide a brief explanation, and I look forward to his contribution.
The Lord High Commissioner is the sovereign’s personal representative to the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland. The General Assembly is the governing body of the Church of Scotland. It meets each May in Edinburgh, to hear reports, make laws and set the agenda for the Church of Scotland. The Lord High Commissioner is appointed as an observer to attend proceedings and to inform His Majesty the King personally about the business of the assembly. The Lord High Commissioner also undertakes important ceremonial duties, including addressing the General Assembly at its opening and closing sessions and attending the daily business on the sovereign’s behalf. The Lord High Commissioner undertakes official visits in Scotland, as well as hosting engagements at the Palace of Holyroodhouse.
Historic legislation currently prevents the appointment of Roman Catholics to this role. The Claim of Right 1689 sets out restrictions against Roman Catholics being appointed to public offices in Scotland, which include the Lord High Commissioner. The Roman Catholic Relief Act 1829 removed many legal restrictions on Roman Catholics. Crucially, however, it explicitly did not remove the restrictions against Roman Catholics holding the post of Lord High Commissioner. Therefore, there remains a legal barrier that prevents Roman Catholics undertaking this role. This Bill is concise and narrowly focused, and will deliver a straightforward but important change by enabling Roman Catholics to undertake the post of Lord High Commissioner.
The immediate impact of the passing of this Bill will be to facilitate the appointment of Lady Elish Angiolini, who is a Roman Catholic, as Lord High Commissioner for 2025. Lady Elish’s distinguished career encompasses law, justice and academia. In 2011, she was honoured as a Dame Commander of the Order of the British Empire for her outstanding contributions to the administration of justice. Since 2012, she has served as principal of St Hugh’s College, Oxford, and she was appointed pro-vice-chancellor of the University of Oxford in 2017. In 2022, Her late Majesty the Queen appointed her to the Most Ancient and Most Noble Order of the Thistle, and she participated in the Coronation in 2023. Should this Bill pass, she will make history as the first Roman Catholic to be appointed Lord High Commissioner.
Lady Elish’s appointment would be a historic gesture of unity, good will and collaboration between the Church of Scotland and the Catholic Church in Scotland, following the St Margaret declaration signed in 2022, as well as a continuing declaration of friendship between the two Churches. This combined effort between the two denominations is a welcome demonstration of how people from different religions and backgrounds in our society can unite to emphasise the values and issues that unite us all and can acknowledge our differences with respect and dignity. I note that the appointment of Lady Elish to the role of Lord High Commissioner has been warmly welcomed, including in the other place when this Bill was debated, taking note of her distinguished career and personal achievements.
The legislation is before the House today on an accelerated timetable, which is necessary to ensure that Lady Elish’s appointment can be made ahead of the General Assembly in May. Subject to Royal Assent, the formalities of the appointment will begin. This process will include a formal commission for the office, accompanied by a royal warrant.
I can reassure the House that the UK Government have worked closely with key stakeholders in the development of this legislation. While the Bill concerns a reserved matter, my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster spoke to the First Minister of Scotland and representatives of the Church of Scotland in advance of bringing forward this legislation. We thank them for their constructive and collaborative approach to this issue. The Government also engaged with the Catholic Church to ensure that it was kept informed ahead of the introduction of the legislation. My right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster also discussed the matter with Lady Elish directly and we have absolutely no doubt that she will be an excellent Lord High Commissioner.
I will briefly summarise this two-clause Bill. Clause 1 makes provision to allow a person of the Roman Catholic faith to hold the office of the Lord High Commissioner to the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland. Clause 2 sets out the territorial extent of the Bill and the commencement of the Bill, including that it will commence on Royal Assent.
To conclude, this Bill has a welcome aim and delivers a concise, albeit narrow, objective. I hope the Bill will receive support from all sides of the House. In that spirit, I commend it to the House. I beg to move.
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Baroness the Leader of the House for introducing the Bill. As she says, it is a simple and straightforward Bill which will enable a most distinguished Scottish lawyer, Lady Elish Angiolini, to take up her appointment as His Majesty the King’s Lord High Commissioner to the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland. I can assure the House that it has the full support of His Majesty’s Opposition and we were very grateful to be able to consent to accelerated consideration through the usual channels.
As my honourable friend the Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine said in another place, this Bill is an important step towards full equality for Roman Catholics under British law. There is in fact a long Conservative tradition of supporting Catholic emancipation, which the noble Baroness alluded to. In fact, the first Duke of Wellington risked the future of his own Government to secure the passage of the Catholic Relief Act in 1829, which granted Roman Catholics the right to take up positions of trust and responsibility in public life. There were some objections from some quarters in Scotland at the time, which might be why we are here today. The passage of that 1829 Act led Britain out of shameful centuries of penal laws against Roman Catholics. The Bill before us today shows how far we have come since 1829.
I remember it was Sir Keir Starmer who in 2002 wrote an important article calling for an end to another disqualification of Roman Catholics—of people who married Catholics from succession to the Crown. It was good that the coalition Government took that up and passed the Succession to the Crown Act 2013, which ended that disqualification of Roman Catholics. We are always ready to support Sir Keir in good ideas and the attempt to reduce any element of discrimination in public life has universal support. I hope we can continue to foster greater acceptance and a stronger tradition of ecumenism for the future. This Bill achieves that. We are absolutely united across this House in opposition to discrimination. In government, we worked to foster stronger relationships between all communities, whatever differences of religion they may have had, and we will work with Ministers in this Government to continue that work, as we are doing today.
As the noble Baroness said, the Lord High Commissioner to the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland is one of the most significant roles in Scottish public life. Our sovereign has appointed Lord High Commissioners as representatives since 1690, for only rarely have sovereigns attended the General Assembly in person. The King is not the head of the Church of Scotland, so the Lord High Commissioner is a representative to the General Assembly, not a member of the Assembly itself, and it is therefore not a requirement for them to be a Presbyterian or a member of the Church of Scotland.
Lady Elish Angiolini has an impeccable record of public service, having served as Scotland’s first female Lord Advocate, and she has had a distinguished legal and academic career. We on this side also welcome her appointment. Indeed, the decision to appoint Lady Elish, the first Roman Catholic to receive the King’s commission to be his representative to the General Assembly, is a momentous one. As the noble Baroness rightly said, it builds on the St Margaret Declaration of November 2022, in which the Church of Scotland made:
“An historic declaration of friendship between the Church of Scotland and the Catholic Church in Scotland”.
We welcome this continued commitment to friendship between those two great Churches.
Before I conclude, I note that the Government say they are looking also to make changes to other, similar areas of law. In her letter to all Peers of 5 March 2025, the noble Baroness the Lord Privy Seal wrote that the Government were considering how to address historic restrictions on Roman Catholics and Jews advising the Crown on appointments in the Anglican Church. Perhaps she will take this opportunity, either now or in a letter, to set out in further detail what is intended. It might be helpful to know when the Government intend to bring such proposals forward, which I am inclined to think that we on this side would want to support.
In conclusion, we wholeheartedly support the Bill. We wish to see it pass swiftly through your Lordships’ House ahead of the next meeting of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland in May this year, as the noble Baroness told us. We have absolutely no doubt that Lady Elish Angiolini will fulfil her duties assiduously and we wish her well as she prepares to take up her important role as Lord High Commissioner.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)
My Lords, I am happy to follow the Lord Privy Seal and the noble Lord, Lord True, in welcoming the Bill. I shall start by declaring interests: I am a member and elder of the Church of Scotland and a former moderator of the General Assembly.
I have known Lady Elish. We served in government together in Scotland in the early 2000s and then, when she was Lord Advocate, I was the Advocate-General for Scotland, so we had a lot of dealings with each other. I certainly consider Elish and her husband Dominic to be good personal friends. I should probably also declare another interest: she has invited me to stay overnight at Holyrood Palace during the General Assembly—assuming, of course, that the legislation has passed.
I congratulate the noble Baroness the Lord Privy Seal on giving a very good analysis and description of the role of the Lord High Commissioner, which I am sure the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, will be able to elaborate on. It shows, as I said last week in one of our debates, that you can have a national Church that enjoys a positive and assertive relationship with the sovereign without the need for its senior clergy to be in the legislature. Maybe there are lessons to learn from that in other ways.
Repealing the provision in the Roman Catholic Relief Act 1829 brings us into the 21st century. Like the noble Lord, Lord True, I am pleased that the noble Baroness has indicated that the Government will look at other religious discrimination that still exists, with a view to bringing forward some consultation. If she could elaborate on that, that would be very welcome.
I noted too that the noble Baroness made the following statement under the Human Rights Act:
“In my view the provisions of the Church of Scotland (Lord High Commissioner) Bill are compatible with the Convention rights”—
which of course they are. Indeed, they help to implement convention rights. The noble Baroness’s equivalent in 1829 would not have been able to make such a declaration, which is a sign of the times. I am not quite sure what happened then—whether it was the fact that the Church of Scotland and others in Scotland made representations to the Duke of Wellington for the exclusion, or whether it was just that, knowing the slightly febrile situation in the religious atmosphere of Scotland in the early 19th century, the Government took the view that it was probably better to avoid such a controversy. But controversy there would have been and there was no way it would have been acceptable in 1829.
Nor, I am ashamed to say, would it have been acceptable in 1929. During a shameful period in the Church of Scotland’s history in the 1920s and early 1930s, General Assemblies often became obsessive about Irish immigration into Scotland. They perceived a threat to our cultural identity and that the people coming in would take Scottish jobs, and some Scots demanded immediate repatriation. Now, we may have echoes of some things that are going on today, but we should remind ourselves that these attitudes were there. I think it says something that the person we are discussing today, Lady Elish, is of Irish descent, and a female Roman Catholic of Irish descent becoming the Lord High Commissioner shows the progress that we have made. In 1935, thousands demonstrated violently in Edinburgh when the freedom of the city was granted to the Prime Minister of Australia, Joseph Lyons, because he was a Roman Catholic. That was less than 90 years ago and it shows just what we have to do.
Progress has been made. Ecumenical links have been strengthened over the years and, as has already been referred to, the St Margaret declaration of friendship between the Church of Scotland and the Roman Catholic Church in Scotland, in which as moderator I was pleased to play a part, was delivered and achieved on the back of much mutual respect and good will, not least on the part of the Scottish Catholic Bishops’ Conference by Archbishop Leo Cushley. It was signed in November 2022 and was seen as a landmark and, I hope, as a signal to the rest of Scotland.
However, to say that everything in the garden is rosy would be wrong. When my predecessor as Moderator of the General Assembly, the very reverend Dr Martin Fair, made his valedictory address to the General Assembly in 2021, among the things he said was the Kirk’s mission. He said:
“For as long as anti-Catholic, anti-Irish bile is spewed onto our streets by so-called football fans - there is work for us to do”.
I think we would certainly endorse that.
The St Margaret declaration says in its very first paragraph:
“We recognise each other as brothers and sisters in Christ, and we wish to express our friendship and respect for one another as fellow Christians, citizens and partners in announcing the kingdom of God in our land”.
I would say amen to that. This Bill is in the spirit of that declaration.
Lord Hope of Craighead (CB)
My Lords, I very much welcome this Bill and it is a great pleasure to follow the former moderator, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness. This is indeed a necessary reform which, as the Lord Privy Seal has told us, clears the way for Lady Elish Angiolini to take up her appointment in just a few weeks’ time. It will also settle the issue for the future, which in itself is very much to be welcomed.
This amendment could not, of course, have been achieved without the full support of the Church of Scotland, to whose wisdom I wish to pay tribute. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, has reminded us, we do not have to look all that far back into our history to a time when its response might have been very different.
My reason for contributing to this debate is that I had the immense privilege of serving as the Lord High Commissioner on two occasions, in 2015 and 2016. That experience enables me to assure your Lordships that the question as to which denomination of the Christian faith the person belongs is wholly immaterial to his or her ability to perform the duties of that office, so I should like to say just a few words about what the office involves.
The duties of the office will be defined in a commission under His Majesty’s sign manual that Lady Elish will receive when she presents herself at the opening of the General Assembly. It will commission and warrant her to represent His Majesty at the General Assembly as his High Commissioner specially appointed to that office, no more and no less than that. It will authorise her
“to do all and everything belonging to the power and place of a High Commissioner to a General Assembly as fully and freely in all respects as any other in that High Station hath done or might have done in any time heretofore and as We Ourselves might do if Personally present”.
She will, in short, be His Majesty’s personal representative to do what he would have done if he had been there himself.
It will not be her function to participate in the work of the assembly or to perform any religious duties. She will sit high above in the Royal Gallery as an observer, from where her only function will be to deliver two speeches, one at the opening and the other at the closing sederunt. Her opening speech will, as tradition requires, begin by stating that His Majesty the King has commanded her to assure those attending the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland of his great sense of their steady and firm zeal for his service and to assure them on his behalf of his resolution to maintain the Presbyterian Church covenant in Scotland. She will also offer to the incoming moderator warmest congratulations on her appointment and wish her a most happy and successful year in office. Her final speech will end by, in the King’s name, bidding everyone farewell and, in between, she will attend the General Assembly’s morning services throughout the week and a Sunday service in St Giles’ Cathedral, where she will sit in a place of honour as the King’s representative.
Those are the formal requirements. As for the rest, there is an immensely busy programme of ceremonial: of receptions, of lunches and dinners which she must host, and of visits to organisations and places of the kind that His Majesty would have wished to do had he been there. She will travel everywhere in a car with no number plate, with a police escort to speed her through the traffic. She will reside, throughout the week, in the Palace of Holyroodhouse, where a large and rather beautiful fountain will always play in the courtyard. A guard of honour will be on parade and the full national anthem will be played whenever she appears at the door of the palace to carry out her duties elsewhere on the King’s behalf.
All good things must come to an end of course. The police escort will have disappeared when she returns to her car at the end of the closing sederunt. When she returns to the palace, she will find, like Cinderella, that the guard of honour has disappeared and the fountain has been turned off. She will then have to use her own car when she drives herself home. But she will have an audience with His Majesty some weeks later, to report to him on her week as his High Commissioner, and there is the possibility that, all being well, she will be invited to do the same next year. For all this, she has my very best wishes.
The Lord Bishop of London
My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble and learned Lords, Lord Wallace and Lord Hope. We on these Benches welcome this Bill and, as we have already heard, so does the Church of Scotland.
The Columba declaration was signed in 2016 between the Church of England and the Church of Scotland, which means we work closely together in mutual respect and appreciation. We are both established churches of this United Kingdom, though how the establishment is manifested in our national life is, of course, different.
We have heard that the Bill will amend the Roman Catholic Relief Act 1829, which still prohibits Roman Catholics from holding the role of the Lord High Commissioner. Given the prohibition does not exist for those with other faith or belief, or for those of no faith, this is a welcome and long overdue change. Indeed, previous officeholders have been Episcopalians, Free Church and from other Christian denominations, so this Bill will remove a legal discrimination that is no longer relevant or required. That it is long overdue for repeal is obvious by the fact that I believe its continuing effect came as a surprise to those making the most recent appointment, so the speed at which this short and straightforward Bill needs to go through is both understandable and entirely justified.
As we have heard, Lady Elish has already contributed significantly to Scottish national life and is clearly well qualified. On these Benches, we support this important change to ensure that the role of the Lord High Commissioner can function as it needs to and to remove a long-standing prohibition whose time is long past.
The Earl of Dundee (Con)
My Lords, I join others in welcoming this Bill and will briefly touch on three connected points: the positive, and fortunately prevailing, attitude towards religious tolerance; that also towards human rights; and, in regard to ecumenism, free thinking and free speech, the significant contributions to each of these made by all parts of the United Kingdom, including Scotland.
All of us are delighted that His Majesty the King has appointed Lady Elish Angiolini to be Lord High Commissioner this May at the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, that appointment enabled once this Bill has amended the Roman Catholic Relief Act 1829.
Nevertheless, while the present Bill deals with this purpose, when she comes to wind up, can the Leader of the House agree that to avoid confusion and give further clarity at least two more related aspects have to be addressed in due course? My noble friend Lord True referred to yet another.
For, to manage conformity with the Lord Chancellor (Tenure of Office and Discharge of Ecclesiastical Functions) Act 1974, the reference to the Lord High Chancellor should be removed from the 1829 Act. Equally, to align with the Equality Act 2010 and Article 9.1 of the European Convention on Human Rights, the Roman Catholic Relief Act 1829 and other legislation relating to Roman Catholics ought to be carefully re-examined, along with the Jews Relief Act 1858.
Your Lordships will know that the assembly week is of two separate parts. First, chaired by the new Moderator in the Church assembly itself, come relevant Church business discussions; yet they do so alongside transparent and topical debates on issues such as those taken recently on the assisted dying controversy and the current European crisis in Ukraine.
Secondly, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, has just indicated, at the same time, and away from the General Assembly having opened it, the Lord High Commissioner gives useful encouragement and support by visiting Church and social care projects in Scotland.
We are indeed fortunate to have heard participate in our debate today the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, who is a recent Moderator of the Church of Scotland, as we also are to have heard from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, as a previous Lord High Commissioner to its General Assembly.
As standard-bearer for Scotland, it is a great honour and privilege for me to carry the royal banner of Scotland at the opening of the General Assembly every May, and, among the large gathering of those attending, to be able to witness an unequivocal solidarity of good purpose and good will.
Not least does this attitude, and that of the Church of Scotland, also reflect a positive approach towards those of other faiths. For, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, has said, the Church of Scotland already works with other churches in Scotland and across the world to form ecumenical partnership bodies, such as ACTS, or Action of Churches Together in Scotland; CEC, the Conference of European Churches; and WCC, the World Council of Churches.
To some extent, this achievement of the Church of Scotland is perhaps mirrored here by the Lords spiritual, mentioned in a moving Committee stage tribute last week by the noble Lord, Lord Moore of Etchingham, who himself has converted to Catholicism. For, in the context of ecumenism, he eloquently explained how and why two otherwise different objectives become consistent with one another instead.
The first is that within a reformed House, yet on their same Bench and under their existing statute, the Lords spiritual would continue to speak for all Christian faiths as they anyway naturally do, rather than just for the Anglican faith.
However, the second is that HOLAC should in any case separately appoint to this House some different faith representatives, to sit here on the same Bench as our existing independent non-political Cross-Bench Peers.
The parallel to that is the way in which Scottish Presbyterianism, while remaining the established form of church government in Scotland, already reaches out to welcome and respect other Christian faiths and their different forms of Christian worship, thereby also embracing free speech, free thinking and free worship: the cornerstones of the European Convention on Human Rights, which we debate tomorrow, in a debate introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Alton. In commemorating its 75th anniversary, we give thanks for what this convention has done and will continue to do.
For that is not just to heal the wounds of Europe. It is also to provide soft power direction and stability throughout the world.
Baroness Alexander of Cleveden (Lab)
My Lords, like other noble Lords, I welcome this Bill and look forward to Lady Elish opening the General Assembly in May. By any measure, this is an overdue Bill. We have just five minutes each to canter through a history that began five centuries ago. It began in the 16th century with the declaration of Scotland as a Protestant nation, and continued into the 17th century, with the passing of the Claim of Right Act, which restricted Catholics’ access to public office; the 18th century, and the Act of Union; the 19th century, and the relief Act that swept away most of the anti-Catholic restrictions, but not this one; and the 20th century, when ugly sectarianism scarred Scotland. Today, we are repealing only this specific anti-Catholic prescription. The narrow scope, as my noble friend the Leader of the House has made clear, is because of the imminence of the General Assembly in May.
Lady Elish will be an outstanding Lord High Commissioner. She is only the fifth woman to hold the role in almost 500 years. Let us hope those odds also improve. As we have heard, the Lord High Commissioner attends the assembly as the monarch’s representative, because the monarch is not head of the Church of Scotland but simply a member. This reflects the core tenet of Presbyterianism, and the broader reformed tradition, that everyone is equal in the sight of God.
I have just three minutes left to raise a trinity of issues: the Churches, Scottish society and the future. First, the Churches: as we have heard, the Lord High Commissioner is a Crown, not a Church, appointment, but as my friend, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, has noted, it is right and proper to acknowledge how sectarianism scarred the Kirk and Scottish society, most egregiously in the interwar years.
The journey to ecumenicalism has sometimes been a long one. I grew up in an ecumenical community dedicated to interfaith dialogue, and I recognise the continuing work and witnesses of the Church and faith groups of all kinds. Today’s mainstream churches want nothing to do with sectarianism. In our secular age, church people of whatever denomination invariably have more in common than anything that divides them. Sectarianism has been pushed to the fringes and is now a cultural phenomenon rather than a religious one.
So where does Scottish society stand? In the other place, it was the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster who piloted this Bill. He, like me, attended a west of Scotland secondary school 40 years ago, but on a different side of the divide. Later, as fellow students, we talked about sectarianism. Therefore, as a daughter of the manse, I learned about Irish music, the bookies and Guinness. These were stories that I did not share with my teetotal granny, who, like Keir Hardie, has signed the pledge at 17 and celebrated Hogmanay with ginger wine.
This enrichment from getting to know other communities and traditions has since accelerated. My children have just completed 12 years in Glasgow schools and witnessed little of the past tensions. As a Glasgow friend pithily summed it up to me last weekend, “Wendy, in our youth there were 50,000 people singing sectarian songs on the terraces; now it’s just 10,000”. The data bears this out. Today, religious hate crimes number 500 a year in Scotland, while race hate crimes hover around a shameful 4,000. Therefore, the best verdict on sectarianism is perhaps, “Down, but not yet out”.
My final word is about the future. This Bill—very belatedly—enshrines tolerance. We should all take pride that last year, Scotland had a Muslim First Minister and the UK had a Hindu Prime Minister. As we look around our world today, we must not only defend but celebrate difference.
There is something else to be proud of: this is a Scottish Bill—an exceptionally rare thing in Westminster these days. The passing of power to Holyrood a quarter of a century ago ended the era where Scottish legislation piled up at the end of a very long Westminster queue. Holyrood, of course, was the stage on which Lady Elish first shone. I wish her godspeed; we look forward to her Sermon on the Mount, and I hope the General Assembly impresses this most able of Lord High Commissioners with its wisdom, kindness and compassion.
Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Con)
My Lords, I rise with a certain nervousness to contribute to this debate. One might assume that, as an Englishman, albeit with Scottish ancestry on my late father’s side linked to an area near Selkirk in the Borders, I would have only a passing interest in this measure. I am neither a Catholic nor a practising Presbyterian, nor a member of the Church of Scotland, although in my teens I was a regular attender at the fellowship of youth at my local Presbyterian church in Newcastle upon Tyne—more linked, I think, to the facilities for table tennis than anything to do with my religious denomination. I happen to live in a village in Yorkshire which was a recusant community and the home for a long time of Guy Fawkes and his family.
None of that is enough to compel me to speak but, in strongly supporting this short but important measure, I would like briefly to draw on my experience as the Government’s Scottish Whip in the House of Commons between 1990 and 1994—an interesting experience, to say the least. Apart from duties entailing the encouragement of some real personalities of whom I had the care, who will today remain nameless, to join me in the same Lobby at least occasionally, I had the important but pleasant duty of entertaining the Moderator of the Church of Scotland soon after appointment each year on their visit to the United Kingdom Houses of Parliament. I was able to provide a suitable pot of English breakfast tea—I do not think there is a Scottish equivalent—in the House of Commons Dining Room and a meeting with the Speaker in his rooms, with perhaps a visit to the chapel to round things off. It was all very congenial.
After a year or two of this, I suddenly had an inspired thought: why not invite the visiting Moderator to offer the Prayers at the commencement of proceedings in the House of Commons on the day he was with us? After all, he was a Christian. I rushed to arrange this with the authorities. Little did I realise that what I was proposing was not only totally unacceptable but apparently an affront to our constitutional and spiritual conventions. If my idea was adopted, what next? Might I even come to suggest that a similar function be performed by a senior Catholic priest on a visit from Rome? I was strongly reprimanded and withdrew what I had thought a seemingly innocent and even helpful proposal. Such a precedent was clearly not welcome here. I refrained from suggesting it again during my remaining term as Scottish Whip. I say all this because it shows how there are still impediments to ecumenism, even in our Parliament. I hope that, when we carry out further reform of this House, we might consider extending the hand of unity in religion a little further than at present.
Back to Scotland: from what I have heard, it seems as though this anomalous situation arising never occurred to anyone before the decision to appoint the new Lord High Commissioner was well advanced. Hence the need for speed in these legislative changes, which need to be in place before the General Assembly meets in May. If true, that seems rather extraordinary. I hope there will now be a re-examination of the Roman Catholic Relief Act 1829 and all other legislation relating to religious discrimination which may remain on the statute book to ensure that we do not have to carry out such an exercise again. I am encouraged to know that the Government seem to have agreed to consider this.
In the meantime, I find the monarch’s appointment of the Lord High Commissioner very refreshing. With understanding and diplomacy, it must surely be a very positive and progressive initiative. Of course, there is one remaining area of discrimination. I hardly dare mention it, but what if the monarch or a successor were to adopt the Catholic faith? That would be a totally new and mighty challenge, even to the most reasonable minds in this House.
I wish the new Lord High Commissioner all the very best in her new role. I just hope that she will have enough time to attend matches at both Ibrox and Celtic Park.
Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)
My Lords, it is a real pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Kirkhope, in this relatively unusual outburst of ecumenism among Scots. It is also a pleasure to join the chorus of unanimity which has characterised this Bill’s progress here and in the other place. I have often had occasion to chafe against the time restrictions on Back-Bench contributions in your Lordships’ House, but, given my unqualified support for this Bill and the absence of any dissenting voices, I will keep my contribution short. I cannot guarantee, however, that it will not in part be repetitive of other noble Lords’.
This legislation is becomingly simple, and rights an obvious wrong. As we have heard, it amends the Roman Catholic Relief Act 1829 to allow the sovereign to nominate Lady Elish Angiolini as His Majesty’s High Commissioner to the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, much as Section 1 of the Lord Chancellor (Tenure of Office and Discharge of Ecclesiastical Functions) Act 1974 opened that office to members of the Roman Catholic faith. It is no surprise that it is His Majesty King Charles’s nomination of Lady Elish that has prompted this important legislation. His commitment to interfaith dialogue and mutual respect between different faiths was a constant animating principle during his time as Prince of Wales, and the Bill before your Lordships’ House today represents a further step towards formal equality.
The Promissory Oaths Act 1871 already removed a bar to people professing the Jewish faith holding the office of Lord High Commissioner. In that context, I refer to the briefing paper of the Law Society of Scotland, which I thank for identifying the remaining elements of the Catholic Relief Act 1829 and the Jews Relief Act 1858 which hold trace elements of religious discrimination that remain part of British law. I commend my noble friend the Lord Privy Seal, and the Prime Minister, for their energy in seeking to tackle those remaining matters of discrimination as soon as possible. As the noble Lord, Lord True, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, referred to, the sooner that can be done, the better, because, as we all know, legislation holds both a practical and a symbolic value. In this particular context, a Bill which removes these historic anomalies would not just be overwhelmingly welcomed in Scotland by the Roman Catholic community and others but would be a worthy symbol of positive change for a Government who base their whole term of service on changing, and this is one of the many changes which need to be added to their list.
As we have already heard, the appointment of Lady Elish Angiolini exemplifies, and gives expression to, the historic St Margaret declaration of friendship between the Catholic Church and Church of Scotland, signed in 2022. I am pleased to have been reminded by my friend, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, that this was during his term of office, and I am not surprised that he was part of the process which caused that to happen. I thank him for his contribution.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)
It was not signed during my term of office, but it was worked up during my term of office, and then approved at the General Assembly when I stood down, and signed by my successor.
Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)
I thank the noble and learned Lord for that clarification. None the less, I will not withdraw my thanks and congratulations to him.
It is perhaps difficult for anyone who has not lived in Scotland to appreciate just what an extraordinary step that represented, and, still further, what the sovereign’s appointment of an Irish-born Catholic woman as Lord High Commissioner represents. The spirit of ecumenism, amity and fraternity between different Christian denominations is at the heart of this legislation. In his 1995 encyclical on ecumenism, Pope John Paul II pleaded with Catholic leaders to adopt a fraternal attitude to the members of other denominations in the following words:
“We should therefore pray … for the grace to be genuinely self-denying, humble, gentle in the service of others, and to have an attitude of brotherly generosity towards them”.
Whatever one’s view of Catholicism, Christianity or faith in general, it is hard to quarrel with those sentiments. In that spirit, it is perhaps appropriate that the nomination of Lady Elish has taken place so close to the King’s state visit to the Vatican, as he continues to demonstrate his commitment to interfaith dialogue.
It has been said, but bears repeating, that Lady Elish has a record of distinguished public service, and a career that already encompasses several firsts. Noble Lords will recall the opening of Evelyn Waugh’s Decline and Fall, in which he describes
“the sound of English county families baying for broken glass”.
Lady Elish must be used to a similar—though rather more wholesome—sound, given the number of glass ceilings that she has shattered in the course of her distinguished career. As she does so yet again, I wish her well in her new appointment, and give my wholehearted support to the Bill before your Lordships’ House.
Baroness Goldie (Con)
My Lords, while it is not a registrable interest, I am a member of the Church of Scotland, an elder of the Church and, with recent effect, a worship leader. With that background, I value the presence of the Bishops in your Lordships’ House as Lords spiritual; I am not sure that we voice that appreciation often enough. It is good to see the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London in her place: I see her and her spiritual colleagues less as advocates for the Church of England and much more as disciples of Christ and the manifestation of a Christian presence in Parliament, and I welcome that enhancement.
I am not precious about which Christian denomination discharges that role, and that is not intended to be disrespectful to the Church of England. What matters to me is that, across our different Christian denominations, we believe in the word of God as contained in the scriptures and we seek to live out that example. That is the tremendous strength that we have in common and what cements us together. So, as a child growing up in a sectarian Scotland, there was a lot which I found baffling. I heard the playground slights, the derogatory remarks about those from a different Christian background. What I found increasingly incomprehensible was that these two denominations, the Protestant Church of Scotland and the Roman Catholic Church were apparently commanded to do the same thing, to
“love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and … love thy neighbour as thyself”.
Perversely, this was traduced by so-called adherents of both Churches to a crass representation of hatred, intolerance and bigotry.
Let me be clear that the transgressors were not the practitioners within the two denominations but the so-called hangers-on, whose grasp of theology was tenuous, whose bigotry was entrenched and who personified a complete absence of Christian love and forgiveness. People were judged, dismissed as of no value and written off because of their surname, how they spelled their surname or where they went to school. Fortunately, increasing enlightenment and tolerance over decades have brought about much-needed change. I pay tribute to all the Churches in Scotland, the Scottish Parliament, the politicians and the charities that have worked so hard to erase this ugly stain of sectarianism.
My own parish church in Bishopton has a great relationship with our friends in Our Lady of Lourdes, the local Roman Catholic church, and there are many similar examples to be found across Scotland. Playing her part in this transformation with characteristic skill and compassion was Her late Majesty Queen Elizabeth II. The historic and memorable visit by Pope Benedict to Scotland in 2010, when he was received by Her Majesty at Holyrood Palace, was a watershed moment. I was privileged to be there and the sense of history being made, of a new age of tolerance, was tangible.
This Bill is the essence of brevity but, in simple terms, removes an unjustifiable inequality. It abolishes an impediment which has existed for 196 years to a person of the Roman Catholic faith becoming, at the choice of the monarch, the Lord High Commissioner of the Church of Scotland. A Christian might be moved to say “Amen: what more is there to add?” As a Member of your Lordships’ House, I say, “A wrong at last righted, and high time too”. I can think of no more appropriate and distinguished incumbent under these new arrangements than Lady Elish Angiolini. To her, I extend my very best wishes and I support the Bill.
Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws (Lab)
My Lords, it is really heartwarming to hear such unanimity in support of the Bill, and I, like others, welcome it with all my heart. I too am a Catholic Scot of Irish descent. I am also a close and admiring friend of Lady Angiolini and I am delighted that the King has been so insightful about this appointment, because it has initiated this legislative change but is also symbolic in what it is saying about his own values and about the importance of non-discrimination. That is what the Bill stands for: an end to discrimination.
I want to remind people, because it is within my own memory, that the wonderful Lord James Mackay, who was a really fine Lord Chancellor, was forced to resign from the Free Presbyterian Church, to which he and his family had belonged all their lives, because he attended the Catholic funeral of two judges. That he had set foot in a Catholic church was deemed to be an abomination and he decided that he could not remain within the congregation that was making that determination.
It is not that long ago since the very experience of sectarianism affected lives in the most horrible ways. If people married out—and that was on either side—they would basically be abandoned by their families. It was so frowned upon: people did not attend the weddings or marriage ceremonies of people who were daring to marry someone of a different religion.
As a child in a family of four daughters, I remember the fear that we had. I was not baffled like the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie: I was frightened when my mother insisted that we remain indoors on 12 July, when there were going to be “Orange walks”, as they were called. They started at the foot of our road and my mother was frightened that, somehow or other, the violence that often took place might somehow mete out some ghastly experience on one of us. We lived with that, and we lived with the knowledge that members of our family had applied for jobs and, because they had clearly gone to Catholic schools, they had been refused the opportunity.
In fact, when I made my decision that I wanted to be a lawyer—an advocate—I was warned that it would be very unlikely that a Catholic woman would be well received in the faculty of advocates at that time, back in the early 1970s. That was partly behind my choice to come south and study law in England, because I really did not want to face that sort of sectarianism. I am happy to say that it did not live within my own family. Only recently, a number of my nieces have married and chosen—because of the depth of commitment of their partner—to marry inside the Church of Scotland, but with a Catholic priest also giving a blessing. That is an example of people coming together in a very different way from the way that it was when I was a child.
The appointment of Lady Angiolini is a really inspired, symbolic moment. She is an extraordinary and exceptional woman who is incredibly clever. She became the Lord Advocate in Scotland, having been a solicitor. That was not the normal route. She, like me, had not thought it was going to be possible to be an advocate. Yes, one or two Catholic men had become advocates in Scotland, but it was really not a route that seemed open to us. Many routes seemed to be closed; many admissions did not seem to be there for us. So the symbolism of this is very real, and to end sectarianism in Scotland is vitally important.
I welcome, and listened to, my noble friend Lady Alexander with such pleasure. When she described the numbers of hate crimes involving sectarianism, it sounded celebratory, except that it is so accepted in some ways within Scotland that I do not know whether people go to the police to complain about sectarianism.
Finally, one of our Prime Ministers—Tony Blair—became a Catholic once he stepped down from his role. I remember saying to my mother that Tony would go to Mass with his wife and children and describe how he was so active in their local Catholic church. She was shocked and said, “They’ll block him from becoming Prime Minister if people find out”. That was because people believed that we could not be there in those places. So we should be celebrating this piece of legislation.
Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)
My Lords, it is a privilege to take part in this debate and to hear so many personal experiences, views and opinions from both sides of the divide and from outside of the divide. It is a historic moment, but is coming way too late.
I first met Elish Angiolini, as she was then, in 2000, when she was procurator fiscal for Grampian and the Highlands and Islands, and was living in my constituency. It was after that that she set up the victim liaison scheme. As a teenager, she had been a witness in a case, and was treated in such a cavalier and dismissive way by all the bigwigs in the establishment that she felt victims needed some kind of support, and so she set up that scheme, which, I understand, continues. She has obviously had a meteoric career—worked for and earned, all the way through—and she was respected by everyone, with very few words of criticism. If there have been any, it is because she has had the honesty to challenge something, as you would expect, because she is a professional.
My noble and learned friend Lord Wallace and others have talked about history, and we referred to the Roman Catholic Relief Act 1829. I wonder if I might indulge the House with a little more history. Going back to the 17th and 18th centuries, we should remember that, in effect, we had a long-running war of Protestant succession. We had the civil war. We then had James II—James VII of Scotland—trying to turn the country back to Catholicism and being expelled from the country. We then had the Glorious Revolution and the Act of 1689, and William and Mary. That, apparently, secured the Protestant succession—except that in 1715 there was an attempt to do something about it, and another attempt in 1745. Over many years, the attempt to reverse the Reformation—which was later and probably more fundamental in Scotland—generated very hostile attitudes between the Protestants and the Catholics, and laid the foundations for this discrimination.
I found an interesting aspect of history from the aftermath of Culloden, the last war on British soil. A lot of people think that that was a war between the Scots and the English, but it was not; it was a civil war, mostly between Protestants and Catholics, and there were more Scots on the side of the King than there were on the side of the prince. But that is not the way it is remembered and told.
Flora MacDonald helped Bonnie Prince Charlie to escape; she took him “over the sea to Skye”—by the way, it was from Benbecula to Skye, not the other way. It is assumed that she was a young Jacobite, but she was not: she was a Protestant, from South Uist. After Flora MacDonald was arrested, she said that she did it only because she was concerned for his safety and would have done it for anybody. She then married, emigrated to the colonies, to America, and established farms and plantations. Then the revolution happened; she and her husband sided with the King, which is not the obvious action of a young Jacobite, because she was not one. Unfortunately for them, they were on the losing side; the King lost and they were dispossessed of all their properties. Initially, they moved to Nova Scotia, but the compensation was not sufficient to sustain them, so they moved back to Skye, where she spent the rest of her days. The story is instructive to show that this is one of these moments of history which is not fully reported and understood, and definitely not always objectively digested. The point is that that created a legacy which has lasted so long.
I have no doubt that, in 1829, people were not ready for this. It is absolutely the case that we should have been ready for it long before now, but the fact remains that it is only because the King appointed Lady Elish Angiolini that we have this legislation now. I am delighted it is happening and I hope we get it through as quickly as possible. However, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord True, and others, that, if there are any other bits and pieces of discrimination against anybody for their religious beliefs that have not been dealt with, we need to deal with them. I hope the Government will find the space and time to do so.
We on these Benches support and welcome the Bill. I agree with everybody who has said that Lady Elish will be a magnificent Lord High Commissioner. She has all the experience, grace, charm and intelligence to make the most of it. It will be a great General Assembly. As it is so historic, it will probably be nearly as memorable as the one that my noble and learned friend was involved in. We are united in this. It should have happened long ago. Let it happen, and let it happen quickly.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, it has been an absolute pleasure to be part of today’s debate and to listen to the contributions made. It may have been one of the easiest debates I have taken part in, such is the unanimity and warmth around the House. Lady Elish will know from the comments that have been made about her the support she has from across Parliament —it was the same in the other place—in the position that this legislation will enable her to take up.
What I have found so impressive about this debate has been not just how passionate many noble Lords have been about the issue but the way in which the humanity and humour has come through, as well as some history lessons. As a mere Englishwoman, there is a lot that I have to learn. I declare that I am half Scottish.
The noble Lord, Lord Kirkhope, said that he hesitated before standing up to contribute. I think that English voices are welcome, as this is something that affects us all. Some of the stories and accounts that we have heard today show just how important, symbolic and valued this legislation is. I am really pleased to hear such strong support for the measures in the Bill, and that we can make progress towards removing a historic, and in many ways shameful, legal barrier.
I will respond to some of the comments that were made in the debate. The noble Lord, Lord True, was the first to make clear his strong support for this measure. He made the point that we should celebrate our unity but respect our differences; the two are not exclusive in any way at all. We have brought this legislation forward because of the practical and immediate effect that it will have, but noble Lords are right that there are a few—not many, now—historic restrictions. We will look into those, and, when I can report back to your Lordships’ House, I will do so. It is right that we do not want to be in this position again.
I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, for declaring his interest. It was very helpful to the House, as was his knowledge of Lady Elish. It was with some relief, as I listened to him and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, to learn that I had not got it badly wrong, given the experience they have both had. They both spoke of the progress that has been made.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, obviously enjoyed his time in this role. It was a delightful speech—the memory of the fountain will remain with me always. He has explained to Lady Elish what will come and what is to be lost. The trappings of office are short-lived in many ways, but his description of the duties of the office was very helpful to the whole House. The voice of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London was welcome in this context, as well.
The noble Earl, Lord Dundee, made a strong case for co-operation between religions and across the board, including in your Lordships’ House. He spoke from the Law Society brief about the Lord Chancellor’s role and asked why it was not included here. I reassure him on that point that the Lord Chancellor’s relief Act was made obsolete by the 1974 legislation. I understand the desire to tidy up legislation, but the 1974 legislation had the practical effect of ensuring that there is no bar on Catholics taking on the role of Lord Chancellor. I hope that reassures him on that particular point.
The speeches of the noble Baronesses, Lady Alexander of Cleveden, Lady Goldie and Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, all showed, in powerful and passionate ways, the progress that has been made in society, but also how far we still have to go.
As a child growing up, I was not aware of the same kind of sectarianism as other noble Baronesses. I saw a taste of it as a Northern Ireland Minister and it was quite illuminating for me. My noble friend Lord Browne and I served for a number of years together in the Northern Ireland Office. I remember talking to a group of schoolchildren where the Catholic boys’ school and the Protestant girls’ school had come together. They were doing events together and meeting; it was great. But when I asked the boys whether they would they date a girl from the other school, a couple of the Catholic lads said to me, “Oh no, we couldn’t”. That was some years ago now, but it just showed me how ingrained some of these things are, how hard we have to work and how we should never, ever take progress for granted as we make it but should always to fight to make further progress. I thank all those who spoke on that particular point.
Religious hate crime is something that we can never tolerate, should never try to explain and should always do everything we can to deal with. On religious discrimination, for my noble friend Lady Kennedy of The Shaws and the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, to have grown up feeling puzzled or frightened is completely unacceptable. We would not want any child to be feeling that way ever again.
I thank my noble friend Lady Kennedy of The Shaws for reminding us about Lord Mackay of Clashfern. I remember hearing him speak about this. This was a man of enormous ability, compassion, humanity and values. I think it was a great sadness to him that in a church that he had been a member of for so long he was no longer able to worship because he, rightly, wanted to show his respect to friends who were Catholics by going to their funeral. It remained a sadness to him. Given his values and his humanity, just think what he would think of this Bill today. I think he would be enormously proud of it.
There is probably little more I can say, because the speeches we have heard today have spoken for themselves. It has been an absolute privilege to engage in this debate. I think the point my noble friend Lord Browne made was that here we have an Irish Catholic woman taking on this role by sheer strength of her abilities and aptitude, and that has been welcomed. My noble friend Lord Browne also made a comment about how the King has opened up to different faiths. It just took me back to the Coronation, where four Members of your Lordship’s House representing four faiths had quite a central role, and what that said about the country we have become and the country we want to be.
It has been a privilege to engage in this debate. We have other stages to go through, but it is an honour for me to move that this Bill be now read a second time.
Church of Scotland (Lord High Commissioner) Bill
Monday 24th March 2025
(1 week, 5 days ago)
Lords ChamberChurch of Scotland (Lord High Commissioner) Act 2024-26 Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Smith of Basildon
That the order of commitment be discharged.
The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Smith of Basildon) (Lab)
My Lords, I understand that no amendments have been set down to this Bill and that no noble Lord has indicated a wish to move a manuscript amendment or to speak in Committee. Unless, therefore, any noble Lord objects, I beg to move that the order of commitment be discharged.
The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Smith of Basildon) (Lab)
My Lords, I have it in command from His Majesty the King to acquaint the House that His Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Church of Scotland (Lord High Commissioner) Bill, has consented to place his prerogatives and interests, so far as they are affected by the Bill, at the disposal of Parliament for the purposes of the Bill.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who spoke during the Second Reading debate. It was one of the most positive debates I have ever taken part in in this place. Since the Bill has attracted no amendment and was debated only last week, I will not take up too much of the House’s time today. As I said in the debate, the Bill has a simple aim. It is designed to remove a legal barrier that prevents Roman Catholics holding the office of Lord High Commissioner. The upcoming appointment of Lady Elish Angiolini as the first Roman Catholic Lord High Commissioner would have been blocked by historic legislation if it were not for this Bill. Her appointment is a strong gesture of good faith, co-operation and togetherness between the Church of Scotland and the Catholic Church in Scotland, building on the St Margaret declaration signed in Dunfermline Abbey in 2022.
At Second Reading we heard many powerful speeches from across the whole House, and the impact of those comments really go beyond this Bill. Your Lordships spoke powerfully about the symbolic significance this appointment will demonstrate, not just to two different denominations of Christianity but across society. The values of tolerance, respect and dignity were the running theme of last week’s debate—values symbolised by this appointment. Lady Elish is an accomplished public servant. Your Lordships and Members of the other place have spoken highly of her career and achievements and have warmly welcomed her to her role, and I wholeheartedly agree. There is only one obstacle that prevents her taking up the role, and that is an archaic legal restriction. By passing this Bill removing the restriction, the House can give its support to Lady Elish with our best wishes for her tenure as Lord High Commissioner.
Finally, I express my thanks to all those who have been involved in preparing and passing this Bill. In particular, I thank the Scottish Government, the Church of Scotland and Lady Elish herself. I thank the usual channels and Members on the Front Bench opposite for supporting and facilitating the accelerated timetable for the Bill. I also thank the Bill team from the Cabinet Office and the constitution division for their work in bringing the legislation forward. It is a practical step to remove a relic of a past age that has no place in today’s society. In that spirit, I beg to move.
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for the way she has piloted the Bill. I confirm what she said: the unanimity in the House at Second Reading was moving. There was very broad and deep support for the Bill and for this enlightened appointment by His Majesty the King. This House bears great good will towards Lady Elish as she takes on this appointment. We on this side thank the Minister and all those involved behind the scenes in preparing the Bill, and we wish it godspeed.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)
My Lords, I also thank the Leader of the House, and I echo what the noble Lord, Lord True, said about the debate we had last week. It was quite remarkable, for two reasons. First, there was a historic stain that we wanted to remove. Secondly, we had confidence in the ability of Lady Elish to fulfil the role proposed for her.
I also give thanks to those in the Bill team; I would not say it has been done at breakneck speed, but it had to be done very quickly to meet the deadline of the General Assembly in May. I know that the work done by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster has been very much appreciated, so I add my thanks—not least to the noble Baroness—that we have managed to get this legislation through. I look forward to seeing Lady Elish at the General Assembly on 17 May.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, I do not think there is much I can add to that. I think the House welcomes the breakout of agreement and co-operation in the House. Long may it last.