Atos Healthcare

Yvonne Fovargue Excerpts

Tuesday 4th September 2012 Westminster Hall

[Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) on securing the debate. It is worth reminding people that behind the statistics we are talking about are people who have wrongly been denied the money they need to live on and the support they need.

Like many hon. Members, I have dealt with innumerable cases, and I want to return to the issue of recording. A constituent who came to me wanted his Atos assessment to be recorded, because he had heard of problems in the past. He was told that there were 10 working sets of recording equipment for 140 centres, and that he would have to attend an assessment that could not be recorded, although I believe that it is his right to have it recorded.

Recording might have helped another constituent who came to me, who had been suffering from depression and anxiety, and who had an assessment. She does not cook; in fact, she has not got a cooker, because her lack of concentration means that it would be unsafe. She could barely communicate with me, but the Atos assessment said that her communication was good. She forgot to mention that she lives with her sister—she had to be reminded by her mother—so that was never mentioned in the assessment.

Those clients are appealing with the help of advice agencies, but I fear that when legal aid goes in 2013, there will be a drop in the number of appeals. That drop will not be because Atos is getting it right first time; it will be because people have nowhere else to go for an appeal and will be living without the benefit to which they are entitled. In particular, Atos needs to request medical evidence, which costs money—I have known doctors’ reports to cost anything from £35 to £200—and people eligible for legal aid can get those reports paid for, if they go to an advice agency. What will happen when that system stops?

Lastly, in the short time we have left in this debate, I want clarification on the compulsory reconsideration phase that will come in from April 2013. Will claimants still receive employment and support allowance during that period, as is vital? As we have already heard, 35% of appeals are successful, which means that those people were not fit for work—the decisions were wrong—and if they are not fit for work, they cannot meet the work search requirements. It is therefore essential that ESA continues during that period, and I want clarification about that in relation to all the groups.

Disability Benefits and Social Care

Yvonne Fovargue Excerpts

Wednesday 20th June 2012 Commons Chamber

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

A lot of strange things have been said by Government Members: they say that the Labour Government did nothing to reform benefits, yet say, “You invented the work capability assessment, so you’re responsible for it.” It cannot be both. As a new Member in 2010, I came here intent on criticising the implementation, not the principle, of WCA, regardless of who formed the Government. I made that clear in one of my first speeches. The fact that someone might think it a good thing, in principle, to carry out an assessment does not mean that the specific form of assessment we have been using has worked.

I want to talk, in particular, about how the change from disability living allowance to personal independent payments is likely to take place. I draw attention to a report published in Scotland and based on work by the Learning Disability Alliance Scotland, which took the proposed test, as published, and ran workshops with about 135 people with learning disabilities to see how the test would work in practice. It found that 12% of DLA recipients would not be awarded PIP. Given that there are 24,500 people with learning disabilities in Scotland, nearly 3,000 could be at risk of losing their entitlement.

The report refers to one case study involving a woman with Down’s syndrome living in the Gorgie area of Edinburgh. At the moment, she receives the low level of the care and mobility components of DLA, which makes a huge difference to her life. The care component means that she can cook meals with fresh food, which is particularly important to people with Down’s syndrome, and the mobility component allows her to get reliably to and from her part-time job in a local supermarket. She can afford the bus fares and can get a taxi if she makes a mistake or gets lost. The awards also help her to cover additional costs. For example, a learning disability means that sometimes she leaves the heating on by mistake and so has higher heating bills. Her DLA means that she can pay these bills without too much worry and difficulty. Under the proposed test, however, she scored only four points, which would mean her losing £41 a week, or £2,000 a year.

The report found that 30% of those in receipt of the mobility component and 40% of those in receipt of the care component would receive less under PIP. For example, Frankie, who lives in a small town in a small group home run by a voluntary organisation, receives nine hours of support a week from paid staff as part of his living accommodation. He has a learning disability, cannot read, has a long-term health condition that requires periods in hospital and has mobility problems. At the moment, he receives the medium rate care component and higher rate mobility component of DLA. Under the PIP assessment, he scored some points in some areas, such as living needs—he needs help using appliances and understanding written communications—but that amounted to only seven points. That means he would not get those benefits and would be £85 a week worse off—£4,400 a year.

[Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the changes to the legal aid system whereby access to welfare benefits advice will either be severely curtailed or not available at all will severely affect people’s attempts to appeal against these decisions, which appear perverse?

[Sheila Gilmore]

As my hon. Friend says, there are considerable problems with people being able to access legal advice on making appeals, but it is extremely difficult to access advice generally, given the cuts. We are certainly seeing that in my city, where the advice shop—one of the main advice centres—cannot see people for two weeks. Consequently, appointments are made two weeks in advance. Following an assessment result, people sometimes get a letter telling them that they have three weeks in which to appeal, yet it is difficult for them to get even basic advice in order to make an appeal. That is the reality that people are facing on the ground, so we need to look hard at the proposed tests.

Another important aspect of this debate—the Select Committee on Work and Pensions draw attention to this, and I hope that the Minister will consider it seriously—is that if we follow the pattern used with the employment and support allowance, people will be tested and re-tested, even though nothing in their circumstances has changed. One of the Select Committee’s recommendations was that limits should be placed on the number of re-tests under the new PIP. That is not to say that people should not be tested, but if they are re-tested constantly we may run into the problem of people having their next test virtually before they have finished their last test or their last appeal. That is not helpful, particularly for people with mental health problems, for example.

Oral Answers to Questions

Yvonne Fovargue Excerpts

Monday 23rd April 2012 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

Yorkshire and the Humber has indeed proved to be a pathfinder for the scheme. I am aware of how popular it is and am now looking at ways in which we could modify it in order to provide a greater focus on those areas where demand is high and see whether it makes sense to allow people to access it earlier.

[Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab)]

19. What assessment he has made of homeless people’s experiences of the work capability assessment.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)]

In recognition of the specific issues that homeless people encounter, information and advice related to the work capability assessment is provided through their Jobcentre Plus adviser when they collect their benefit payment via the personal issue payment process.

We have also been in touch with the Department for Communities and Local Government about homeless people. Through this, a meeting has been arranged between Professor Harrington, the work capability assessment independent reviewer, and several charities representing homeless people. We will consider fully any recommendations he makes.

[Yvonne Fovargue]

Upcoming research from Crisis shows that almost half the homeless people questioned felt that the health care professionals at their assessment had a bad or very bad understanding of homelessness and how it impacts on their lives. What steps are being taken to raise awareness among the health care professionals conducting that research and carrying out the work capability assessment?

[Chris Grayling]

I have invited all the charitable groups that have an interest in WCA matters to feel free to offer guidance and training sessions to our decision makers, and to share their views so that any appropriate elements can be included in our training programmes, but of course the best way of helping the homeless is to help them into employment—to use the income to find a home and to sort their lives out properly.

Work Capability Assessments

Yvonne Fovargue Excerpts

Wednesday 1st February 2012 Westminster Hall

[Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Williams, and I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) on securing this debate. I have long been concerned with this issue, and it has been raised by the citizens advice bureau in Wigan and by my constituents. The level of accuracy in the work capability assessment reports is staggeringly low. More than one third of local decisions are overturned on appeal, and as my hon. Friend has mentioned, there are long delays to both the initial assessment and the appeal. Worryingly, however, in 60% of decisions overturned on appeal, the claimants scored no points at all in the work capability assessment. In 87% of cases, people were awarded six points or fewer—less than half the number of points required to pass the work capability assessment. We are talking not about margins of error but of assessments that are completely wrong. As more people who previously used reports from medical professionals now have face-to-face interviews, it is more important than ever that such assessments be conducted properly. People must have confidence in the judgment and accuracy of the reports.

One of my constituents came to me last week. He had received his work capability report after a long delay, and the letter consistently referred to an assessment of his leg, claiming that he had no problems. The problem was that all the way through, the letter mentioned the wrong leg. My constituent joked about it and said that he did not have a leg to stand on, but he now needs to appeal that decision with an incorrect report. Confidence in Atos is not high among any of my constituents or the advice agencies to which I speak. I am currently involved in a protracted correspondence with Atos regarding quality standards and how it is mystery shopped. Will the Minister tell the Chamber what mystery shopping takes place, how it happens, and whether there are financial penalties for inaccurate reports? The attitude certainly does not appear to be one of “right first time.” In 2010-11, inquiries about ESA claims and the Atos assessment rose by over 40% in my constituency.

I would like to draw attention to the Citizens Advice report “Right first time?”, which came out in January. There is an in-depth study of cases involving people who had been recruited before they attended the work capability assessment—they had not gone through it, and they were not complaining because it was wrong, so there was no bias. The sample is small because it took quite a lot of in-depth work, and a lot of voluntary advisers helped with it. In all, 37 reports were studied in depth. Sixteen had a serious level of inaccuracy, which meant there were very substantial errors that would have a significant impact on the award of employment and support allowance or disability living allowance. Ten had a medium level of inaccuracy, which meant there were some significant errors that would probably affect the point scoring and potential award of ESA. Only 11 reports had a low level of inaccuracy.

There were five main points of error. There were omissions or incorrect observations. One client, who had really pronounced curvature of the spine and real problems sitting, was marked down as having no problems sitting or standing. There was also incorrect factual recording of medical information. One client said he could not use his left arm at all. He could not dress or shower himself, and his wife helped him. The report said he managed to dress and shower himself, and ESA was refused, but he won on appeal. If the information had been recorded correctly at the first assessment, there would have been no need for that appeal.

Medical evidence has also been inappropriately determined. A client who was registered blind was under a consultant ophthalmologist and had regular sight tests. He said the work capability test was a bit random. The assessor sat there waving cards in front of him at random distances, saying, “Can you see that? What about that one?” That took no account of the fact that the client has regular sight tests with someone who knows him and who is qualified to judge.

Another thing constituents often complain about—this has been mentioned—is the closed questions, the lack of empathy, the incorrect assumptions and the fact that information has not been gathered. Clients who come to me with mental health problems, in particular, say they feel terrorised by the ESA assessment. When they walk into the room, they feel the assumption is that they are trying to cheat the system. Some have said they never want to go for another assessment.

[Pamela Nash]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the issue is not just the assessment’s inability to assess mental health issues, but the lack of sensitivity that is shown? That causes stress for people who are already under extreme pressure and who are suffering from mental health issues, including depression and anxiety.

[Yvonne Fovargue]

I totally agree. I am trying to find out where people go when they are refused ESA as a result of the work capability assessment, and it is quite astonishing that there are no figures. These people do not go on to other benefits, but I cannot find information anywhere about where they do go. Given the experience of my constituents, I believe a lot of people are living off their families because they cannot face going for another assessment.

[Jessica Morden]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the problem with the work capability assessment is that it makes constituents who receive DLA extremely wary about the move to personal independence payments, because they see the same experience being repeated?

[Yvonne Fovargue]

I quite agree. The move to DLA, for which the tests are even more severe, will be a problem for a number of people. The confidence of people who have been through a work capability assessment and who have had to appeal will be at an all-time low when they have to do the same for DLA.

The other issue is that there are inconsistencies in reports. For example, a constituent said he had a hypo attack every week—he was diabetic—but when he received the report, it said he had an attack once a month. The difference meant he did not get enough points for ESA, which he would have done if the report had said he had weekly events of altered state, as opposed to monthly events. He had to appeal that decision.

Although the changes following the independent review were meant to improve the process, the Citizens Advice survey my hon. Friend the Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West mentioned showed that 87% of advisers said the accuracy of Atos reports had not improved. As has been mentioned, there are improvements that might help. The roll-out of audio recording of assessments might help, but what checks will there be on the accuracy of reports? It is no use just recording and keeping assessments if we do not check the accuracy. The summary of the report sent from the health care professional to the claimant might help—if there is sufficient information to help the claimant check the accuracy, if summaries are sent to all claimants and if they are sent in good time.

The Work and Pensions Committee said we need to do more to learn the lessons from the management of the Atos contract and to improve the quality and monitoring of future contracts. There are a number of recommendations in the Citizens Advice report, which I urge the Minister to read. There is deep concern among claimants and advice agencies about the use of face-to-face assessments going ahead for other purposes, such as DLA, which my hon. Friend the Member for Newport East (Jessica Morden) mentioned, and personal independence payments.

The clients who went to their citizens advice bureaux are the lucky ones; they got their appeal, they got represented and they got help. Unfortunately, the proposal in the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill to remove the eligibility of welfare benefits advice for legal aid will mean that the number of advice agencies and individuals able to give such advice will drop, so fewer agencies will be able to help people. I therefore urge the Minister to ensure that the work capability assessment system has the confidence of claimants and professionals and that we do get it right first time.

Welfare Reform Bill

Yvonne Fovargue Excerpts

Wednesday 1st February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Timms]

I also noted that the Minister did not give my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen South the assurance that she was seeking. My understanding is that any other income in the household, from any source, contributes to the household income, and the benefit for the disabled young person is therefore removed, pound for pound. My hon. Friend was seeking an assurance that some other provision would be put in place to safeguard the young person, but the Minister was unable to give her such an assurance, because I do not think that that is the Government’s intention. No such provision appears in the Bill at the moment.

[Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the measure will have an impact on young people’s ability to form relationships? Having to depend on the income of a potential partner will have a great impact on their lives.

[Stephen Timms]

That is a particularly important point. If a person decides to marry someone who has an income, they will lose all their own income. The independence that the system has provided for 40 years is now being taken away.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Percy]

I am quite relieved that the Minister did not give us an estimate of the costs, because most Government estimates of costs tend not to be correct anyway. The hon. Gentleman has made his point, however, and it has also been made by Members on this side of the House. I welcome what the Minister has said about the £20 charge; it proves that he has listened.

[Yvonne Fovargue]

I accept the hon. Gentleman’s welcome of the reduction in the charge, but does he agree that the proposed collection charges do not seem logical? It is difficult to see the logic in making a family in need of child maintenance pay the cost incurred by the non-resident parent’s resistance to paying that maintenance.

[Andrew Percy]

That is exactly where I am coming from on this issue; I agree with the hon. Lady.

In closing my comments on this amendment, I will quote Lord Mackay, who said in the other place:

“The motivation of the Government for these charges is said to be trying to bring people to voluntary arrangement. I am entirely in favour of that.”

I would be, too. He continued:

“But if that proves impossible, when the woman is at the stage of having nothing more that she can do, she has to pay. What does that do? If anything, it might make her not go to the Child Support Agency”.—[Official Report, House of Lords, 25 January 2012; Vol. 734, c. 1092.]

--- Later in debate ---

[Jenny Willott]

I will not I am afraid.

This group of amendments is very varied and we have had a wide debate this afternoon. The Government have made improvements to the Bill, which I welcome, particularly those to the CSA fee. I hope that the Minister will take into account the points that my colleagues and I have raised, particularly on the issue of housing under-occupancy, which is probably the issue of most concern to us in the Bill. So far, I have found that Ministers have listened and taken concerns on board, and I hope they do that today because the Bill is in a much better state now than it was at the beginning of this process.

[Yvonne Fovargue]

I, too, would like to address the issue of under-occupancy and say that the concerns of my local housing department, Wigan and Leigh Housing, are so strong that we have been in correspondence with Lord Freud. There are very few one-bedroom properties, private or council, in my local area, and it will take eight to 10 years to move the 1,450 to 1,800 people who, on the estimates, might want to downsize. During that period, it is estimated, on Lord Freud’s own research, that 35% of those people— [Interruption.]

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Lady, but I did ask Members of Parliament who wish to have private conversations to leave the Chamber, because those conversations are disrupting the debate. This is the second time of asking. Please listen to the debate.

[Yvonne Fovargue]

During that time, 35% of those involved are likely to end up in arrears. That is 2,540 residents, and 83% will struggle to find the extra money. A total of more than 6,000 people will find difficulty in meeting their commitments, on top of the increases in food and fuel prices, and the fact that the Government have imposed rent rises of 8% for 2012-13. What are the Government going to do? I hear the Minister say that discretionary payments will be provided until 2014, but that is not the eight to 10 years that my association says it will take for even the people who want to downsize. That association is extremely concerned that the burden will be pushed on to housing benefit, even when people move, and that hard-pressed local authorities will have even more problems.

[Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)]

Briefly, I want to make three points about under-occupancy and disabled people. First, I welcome the Minister’s announcement of funds to ensure that disabled people and other special cases are given the help that they need in transition. The other points that I want to make both arise from a constituent’s coming to see me. This particular family has four members, with two disabled people within it, and it needs four rooms. From the outside, someone might say that parents and two children need two or three rooms, which would give them one spare room. Absolutely not: in this case, every single room was needed, and the family was concerned that under the legislation they would be told that they had a spare room and be forced to move. I would like some reassurance on that point—that where people need all the rooms because of disability, certain rooms will not be considered spare, even if the family being of such a size might otherwise justify that decision.

Oral Answers to Questions

Yvonne Fovargue Excerpts

Monday 28th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

That is exactly what universal credit will help to change. The most important point is that its automatic nature will mean far fewer cases of people not receiving in the first place what they are entitled to. One good example is child care: many women, in particular, who are responsible for looking after children do not get the child care that they need, and under the universal credit that should change.

[Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab)]

Universal credit is supposed to be much simpler than the current system. Why, according to the Government’s own impact assessment, will 380,000 people receive penalties for mistakes on their application and when will negligence be defined?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The point about universal credit is that it gets rid of quite a lot of the complexity in the system. That complexity has led to so many mistakes by individuals claiming and by the officials who are meant to be settling those claims. The hon. Lady, and her party, should welcome the arrival of universal credit at the earliest opportunity.

Oral Answers to Questions

Yvonne Fovargue Excerpts

Monday 18th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Steve Webb)]

We believe that the current DWP cheque service does not well suit people with a visual impairment. For example, a cheque is sent by post with no distinguishing mark on the envelope and we ask blind people to sign for the payment. We are working with customer representatives, including the Royal National Institute of Blind People, to design a simple payment system that works better for people. However, I can assure my hon. Friend that there is no plan to require a personal identification number as part of that process.

[Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab)]

T4. In 2010-11 there was an increase in incapacity benefit and employment and support allowance appeals of 167% on 2008-09 figures, and 50% of incapacity benefit appeals were decided in favour of the appellant. What steps is the Minister taking to ensure that independent welfare benefit advice is available equally across the country, so that the figures do not reduce simply because claimants have no access to advice?

[Chris Grayling]

I hope that the figures will reduce because the quality of decision making within Jobcentre Plus improves as a result of the recommendations made to us by Professor Malcolm Harrington. As the hon. Lady will be aware, we have strengthened the reconsideration process and are telephoning rather than writing to claimants, particularly to ensure that we get better medical evidence. I do not want cases going to appeal; I want them resolved properly, satisfactorily and accurately within Jobcentre Plus.

Welfare Reform Bill

Yvonne Fovargue Excerpts

Wednesday 15th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Maria Miller]

There have already been conversations with local government, and as I think Opposition Front Benchers hinted at, there was a broad welcome for the proposals. We shall certainly be working with local authorities to make sure that what happens is exactly what the hon. Gentleman was talking about; the spread of best practice will be critical.

The amendment seems to have taken no notice of the national provision of payments on account that DWP will provide under clause 98. Budgeting advances—the replacement scheme for social fund budgeting loans—will be very similar to budgeting loans, which have been hugely successful and largely self-financing. Budgeting advances will be targeted at those who are least likely to be able to access mainstream lending. That will help to ensure that vulnerable people are not driven to illegal lenders, which is rightly of concern to Opposition Members.

Short-term advances—the replacement scheme for interim payments and crisis loan alignment—will ensure that people who face financial need as a result of problems with their benefit claims will, if they are eligible, be able to access financial assistance through interest-free advances of their benefit. The grounds for eligibility will be set out clearly in regulations.

Another element of the amendment is a requirement for the Secretary of State to publish a proposal for a replacement scheme, based on wide consultation with stakeholders. We are already taking that approach in our discussions about replacement schemes. We will soon publish our response document to our call for evidence, which was based on wide consultation with lobby groups and local authorities. There will be a large amount of information and evidence for Members to consider.

The amendment requires local authorities to set up an independent appeals mechanism, but as I have already said, local authorities will be able to set up an internal review mechanism if they think it appropriate. Furthermore, the local government ombudsman offers a fair and impartial service for people who are dissatisfied with a decision made by their local authority.

In conclusion, the national scheme of payments on account and the local provision, as delivered by local authorities and the devolved Administrations, will provide well-considered replacements for the discretionary social fund, and will make sure that we are supporting more effectively than is currently the case the vulnerable individuals we have discussed today. With those reassurances, I hope Members feel it appropriate to withdraw their amendments, and we can press forward with the Bill.

[Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab)]

As we have heard, the discretionary social fund currently consists of budgeting loans for managed expenditure, crisis loans for emergencies and community care grants for essential household items such as cookers and beds for certain groups—for example, vulnerable people who are moving into new accommodation. The provision is national and acts as a safety net for benefit recipients facing essential expenditure they cannot meet.

It bears repeating that in 2009-10, there were 640,000 applications for community care grants and 3.64 million applications for crisis loans. That demonstrates the scale of the activity we are asking local authorities to take on. It is no small task, but it is absolutely vital to the financial well-being of many of the poorest and most vulnerable people in our society. Although an alignment scheme will be introduced—in effect, allowing advance payment of benefit—I have seen from experience how important it is that people can claim a community care grant, which does not have to be paid back, for their living expenses. It does not put people on the lowest possible income into debt. Without that, people will be driven into the arms of the high-cost lenders, which will reduce their chances of managing their debts successfully. That will put more strain on other services—for example, the health service—due to the increase of stress and depression caused by the cycle of low income and debt.

Proposals were outlined in 2011 to transfer to local authorities, with guidance, the funds currently used, but there will be no new statutory duty for how the money is to be used. It will not be ring-fenced. Local authorities have numerous calls on their expenditure at present, and without ring-fencing we cannot guarantee that the provision will go to those who are most in need. I envisage a number of different policies and that some vulnerable people will lose the right to apply for emergency support. They may be trapped between two local authorities with differing policies.

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend talks about the involvement of local authorities. Several of my constituents have contacted me about a situation that arose when the computer system in Sefton council’s housing office was down for six weeks. The staff advised my constituents to get crisis loans until the problem was fixed. I cannot understand how the Government’s proposals will make it possible for those staff to provide any kind of crisis support. Does my hon. Friend agree?

[Yvonne Fovargue]

I do. It is difficult for local authorities to provide a consistent service. As we have heard, people who are fleeing domestic violence will have an especially difficult time as they move from one local authority to another overnight. How will they be treated?

[Maria Miller]

I apologise for intervening on the hon. Lady, but may I clarify that people will be able to access that sort of money through payments on account, as I outlined?

--- Later in debate ---

[Yvonne Fovargue]

I shall return to the issue of domestic violence. Who will be the responsible authority? If people move overnight to interim accommodation, whose policies will prevail? There are problems at the moment with local authorities taking responsibility. I know of situations in which one local authority says, “These people can’t come back to us,” and the other says, “We don’t want to accept them.”

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. This is a serious and acute problem in London. Given that the boroughs are geographically small, people who move at a time of crisis are not aware of what borough they are moving to and from, and the situation can be disastrous for their future housing options. Central Government direction is needed, and there must be complete ring-fencing and a statutory requirement on each local authority because otherwise the most vulnerable will be short-changed as a result of demands for expenditure—albeit understandable demands—in other areas of a local authority.

[Yvonne Fovargue]

I completely agree. The Government’s approach seems to be predicated on a view that local management will more accurately assess local people’s needs and use a range of local provision and services to support people in need, but that argument is flawed.

We have heard mention of credit unions and charitable support, as well as recycled furniture outlets and food banks. However, let me cite the example of an individual whose washing machine or cooker breaks down. They might be given a recycled product, but such goods are often much less energy-efficient than new goods, so that person will face higher fuel costs and will have no choice but to pay them with more of their low income. Such goods also lack a guarantee and have questionable reliability, so the approach might well be a false economy.

There is also a question of whether charities will be able to sustain continuing demand and, importantly, of whether the dignity of the individual will be adequately protected. I have heard many people—young and old—say, “I am not asking for charity. I do not want charity.” I fear that people will be deterred from applying to any scheme under which they will be referred to a charity and that they will therefore be forced into the hands of the high-cost lenders and credit companies.

[Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con)]

I might have misunderstood the hon. Lady, but is she really criticising the charities that provide such services? For example, councils for voluntary service provide excellent second-hand furniture facilities. These charities are not undignified, but offer an extremely worthwhile service through which they provide good quality goods at reasonable prices.

[Yvonne Fovargue]

I absolutely accept that, but some people do not want to be forced to use such charities as their only course of action. Vulnerable people on low incomes have a great sense of pride when claiming benefit. I absolutely believe that forcing individuals into the arms of charity will mean that they will instead go to high-cost lenders.

[Oliver Heald]

rose—

[Yvonne Fovargue]

I will not give way. I want to move on to the lack of an appeals process.

I regret the loss of the extremely useful digest published by the social fund commissioner that gave an overview of appeals and reviews. That was an invaluable tool for advisers. It assisted them to help their clients to obtain their rights consistently. Such consistency is extremely important. Without a universal scheme, it will be lost, so vulnerable claimants will be left with a patchy and inconsistent service. People might have a right of appeal or independent review but, depending on local authorities’ policies, one side of the street could well get a cash grant while the other side would be given advice about which charity to approach. In the context of homelessness, I have seen that one local authority’s interpretation of “advice and assistance” can be very different from that of the local authority that gives people a list of private landlords.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

I am glad that my hon. Friend brings up the issue of private landlords because the majority of the people about whom we are talking—certainly in London, but possibly in the rest of the country—tend to live in private rented accommodation, which is often unregistered and usually incredibly energy-inefficient, certainly compared with council and housing association accommodation and most owner-occupied properties. These people therefore face higher energy costs and their permanency of accommodation is more vulnerable. We need to take account of the fact that we will be throwing people into the most vulnerable housing sector of all those available.

[Yvonne Fovargue]

I agree. This is no way to treat vulnerable individuals who are trying to obtain life’s necessities. I urge hon. Members not to legislate for the Government’s proposals before a robust, effective and consistent alternative, with a proper right of appeal, has been fully explored.

[Priti Patel (Witham) (Con)]

One of the Bill’s underlying principles is that it focuses resources on those who are the most vulnerable and in need. It is also designed to reduce complexity and to make the delivery of welfare support more effective and efficient. Clause 69 satisfies those requirements. Localising the delivery of the social fund will clearly promote a more joined-up delivery of services and support.

Welfare Reform Bill

Yvonne Fovargue Excerpts

Monday 13th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

My view is that our partner organisations, such as Citizens Advice, need to be involved and informed of all the changes. We need to continue to be able to offer the valuable advice that they give to individuals. We provide quite substantial blocks of Government funding to Citizens Advice and similar organisations, and it will be for them to decide how best to use that financial support. In what are straitened financial times, I would hope that those organisations would see their priority as sending as much of that money as possible to front-line advice services, and spending as little as possible on central administration, central marketing activities and other head office functions. I would like those organisations to focus on providing every spare bit of cash that they can for front-line advice services—as well as finding ways of generating more spare cash for that purpose—because after all, that is where the money is most effectively and valuably spent.

We will seek to provide guidance, training and advice for advisers on the universal credit and the implications thereof. There is always a willingness on our part to talk to groups of advisers, including at some of the big conferences that Citizens Advice organises. I have not been able to do so yet—I have offered to do so on other matters—but we are always willing to provide such input to those organisations.

[Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab)]

Does the Minister accept that the money currently given to Citizens Advice is spent centrally on vital services such as training advisers, the information system and support for those agencies? In fact, none of the money goes to local bureaux, which are extremely concerned about the effects of the cuts in 2013.

[Chris Grayling]

Every organisation has to look at how it operates in tougher times financially, and at how best to spend the money that it has available. I am sure that Citizens Advice will be no different in that respect.

Amendments 23 and 24 deal with the capital limit and propose that for claimants who work, the universal credit assessment should ignore savings that they hold in individual savings accounts up to a prescribed maximum of no less than £50,000. We fully understand the importance of saving. Working families should seek to provide for their future needs and larger purchases. However, families with substantial savings should draw on those reserves when their incomes fall, not look to the taxpayer for support. Our analysis suggests that in 2014-15, there will be up to 100,000 households on tax credits with savings over £16,000 who could be affected by the capital rules in universal credit. However, transitional protection will ensure that there are no cash losers at the point of the transition to universal credit where circumstances remain the same.

However, it is important to be fair to the taxpayer. Although nearly one in three pensioner households have savings in excess of £16,000, only 13% of households with a working-age adult in them have that much in savings. A typical working-age household has only £300 in savings. It cannot be right that people with significantly greater savings than the average family can claim universal credit. A maximum limit of at least £50,000 in ISA savings, as proposed by the right hon. Member for East Ham, is a large sum to be excluded from the capital ceiling. We are striking the right balance between protecting people with modest savings and placing responsibility for their own support on those with substantial resources. Once again, we are talking about an uncosted spending commitment. The right hon. Gentleman said that it would cost £70 million a year to uncap totally, but not that many people on universal credit would have savings of more than £50,000, so the majority of that £70 million would be spent on his measure. The reality is that this is a multi-tens-of-millions-of-pounds spending commitment. Once again, we have not heard from the right hon. Gentleman where the money would come from.

Amendment 30 to clause 10 would mean paying at least as much in the additional elements for disabled children as we did in benefits and child tax credit prior to the introduction of universal credit. As we announced in policy briefing note 1, “Additions for longer durations on Universal Credit”, we will retain two levels of payment for disabled children in universal credit. The higher element will be payable to more severely disabled children receiving the highest rate of the care component of disability living allowance. The lower rate will be payable to children receiving the other rates of the disability living allowance care component. The higher rate will be increased by £52 a year, with eligibility extended to children who are severely visually impaired, who currently receive only the lower entitlement.

The key change is that we propose to align the elements for disabled children and disabled adults. That means that the lower rate would be around £26.75 and the upper rate £74.50 a week in current figures. The lower rate for a less severely disabled child in universal credit would be less than now, but we have pledged that where universal credit entitlement is less, transitional protections will be put in place. Our aim is to simplify and align the additional elements for disabled children with those for adults. We do not think it right that when a young person claims benefits in their own right, the extra amounts payable for disability are different. We also want to focus resources on the most severely disabled children and adults. Savings from abolishing the adult disability premiums and changes in the child rate are not going back to the Exchequer. This is not a cutting exercise; it is about recycling that money into higher payments for more severely disabled people.

Amendments 27, 28 and 29 to schedule 1 relate to the regime for self-employment in universal credit. As I told the right hon. Gentleman many times in Committee, we are committed to ensuring that people in self-employment have the financial support that they need. Amendments 27 and 28 would take a power to allow “accruals accounting” of profits and losses from a trade to be used in the reporting of earnings from self-employment. Strictly speaking, that is unnecessary, as the power taken by paragraph 4(1)(b) of schedule 1 already permits such a regulation. Amendment 29 would limit the application of the power taken at paragraph 4(4), which allows for a minimum level of earned income from self-employment to be set. It proposes that the minimum level would not apply where the claimant’s business was conducted on a commercial basis with a view to the realisation of profits.

We recognise that self-employment is a vital element of the economy and will be an important contributor to the sustained recovery from recession that we all want. It is also an important route into work for many people. We are therefore giving careful consideration to the conditions that we set for people claiming universal credit who seek to make their living from self-employment. The enabling framework provided by the Bill allows the treatment of income from self-employment, including the definition of earnings to be taken into account, to be set in regulations. We therefore do not need to decide this question today; we can work to get it right. However, as I have said to the right hon. Gentleman previously, we have to deal with the issue carefully. It is not the intention to make it impossible for people to get into self-employment, particularly in the first few months, when they have difficulties and money does not come easily. However, in the current system, people can report no or very low income from their business activity and continue to receive the bulk of their benefit or tax credits entitlement. We want people to become progressively less reliant on benefits and universal credit. At the end of the day, we cannot have the taxpayer funding someone who is notionally self-employed—and on whom there is no job search requirement—but who generates little or perhaps no income at all from that self-employment. We have to apply a threshold to determine whether someone is credibly in self-employment or whether they are using self-employment as a reason for not looking for other job alternatives. We have to get this right.

--- Later in debate ---

[Paul Uppal]

I thank my hon. Friend. Sometimes we in the House have to face uncomfortable truths. We may not like them, but they are the reality that we have to face. I believe that the Bill, in its entirety, goes some way to addressing such problems. I have said before, and will say again, that it is very easy to talk the talk in opposition, but the Government are walking the walk. We are delivering something that is popular not just with Conservative voters but with Labour voters. There is consensus across the board on the issue, and it unites most voters whom I have met, whichever party they vote for. They have seen the reality of what we have done to introduce an ethos of work, aspiration and ambition.

I am glad that I am part of a Government who are taking the difficult decisions and doing the important things. This is a seminal Bill, and people will look back on it as one that changed this country for ever. I know that I may have veered away from my original comments on new clause 6, and I am sorry about that, but sometimes we have to say it as we see it. I, for one, am glad that we have introduced the Bill, and I think it will make this country a better place.

[Yvonne Fovargue]

I agree with one thing that the hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West (Paul Uppal) said, which was about taking responsibility. I therefore hope that he can support amendment 26, because it will mean that agencies can ensure that people know their rights and responsibilities following what has been described as the most fundamental change to the benefit system.

One of the first witnesses to appear before the Public Bill Committee said that although universal credit is a simplified benefit, the application for it will not be simple, because of all the different benefits that are rolled up together into it. I am old enough to remember when supplementary benefit changed to income support, and I saw the rise in demand for advice among people worried about what would happen to their income. For people who are on benefit, a small change in income means a lot.

That problem will be exacerbated in the current case, particularly given the fear of a civil penalty for a mistake or omission. People who go to advice bureaux do not want to know how to defraud the system; they want to know how to fill their form in correctly. An online application process will also worry people—particularly older people, but also some younger ones—who are concerned about filling a form out online and not seeing it until three, four or five days later. Support is needed to smooth the transition.

Universal credit will start in 2013—exactly the same time when the proposed changes to legal aid will remove help for the most complex welfare benefit cases. As my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) said, that is the perfect storm. Local authorities are examining every non-statutory service that they provide, and in some cases local advice agencies are losing funding. In fact, in a survey, 54% of local bureaux said that they were worried that they were unlikely to be around in 2013.

Let us scotch one myth. Local bureaux and advice agencies do not get any funding from central Government. The money goes to the central Citizens Advice, which provides a vital service in support of local bureaux. It provides information, training, support and IT services. Putting more money into local bureaux would mean that more would have to be charged for those services. It would be self-defeating. Local face-to-face advice is vital, along with the advisory telephone service. Many claimants are vulnerable, and such advice, provided locally, is of particular importance to them.

[Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)]

Does the hon. Lady agree that local citizens advice bureaux are probably one of the most important and good causes to whose funding local government can contribute? Will she therefore join me in applauding my city council in Gloucester for the valuable increase in funding that it has given to our local CAB, and recommend that action to other councils?

[Yvonne Fovargue]

I will, but to say that local government is the main funder of CABs is to oversimplify the matter. I know of one bureau that had at least five different funding streams—the primary care trust, legal aid, the local authority, housing associations and a hospital. CABs rely on a mixture of funding streams, many of which are being reduced at the moment. Local authorities cannot take up all the slack, much though they should be continuing advice services.

Investing in early advice saves money. Avoiding costly tribunals and appeals is vital, and people who do not have access to advice are more likely to pursue their case to the appeal stage, costing them money and stress. Public confidence in any new system is vital. Advice on welfare benefits is crucial, and I urge the Government to accept amendment 26.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

The hon. Lady is making a powerful point. The CAB in my constituency—in the Rathcoole area, which is very needy—does excellent work along the lines that she has described. Does she agree that whatever one’s views about the other amendments or the Bill, everybody should support amendment 26? Clear advice to constituents and clients is what it is all about, whatever one’s views.

[Yvonne Fovargue]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman, and I agree totally. The amendment would simply give people the opportunity to receive advice about their rights and responsibilities. That is crucial at any stage, but particularly when a new welfare benefit system is brought in. I urge all Members to support the amendment.

[Charlie Elphicke]

I rise to speak against new clause 2. One of the major achievements of the reform of introducing universal credit is enabling people to have greater flexibility in taking on part-time jobs—so-called mini-jobs. I have made the point several times in interventions that it is critical that we enable people with child care responsibilities to have the maximum flexibility in how they organise their child care and for how long they wish to work, so that they are reintroduced to the world of work.

I praise the Government particularly for making the effort to consult all parties in their recent seminar. It was not just members of the Public Bill Committee who were there, but members of the Work and Pensions Committee. Such engagement is important, because it enables us to get everything right. The Government have introduced a Bill that is a bookcase into which the books will later be slotted, and they are making an effort to ensure that the books read well and effectively.

One of the most telling parts of the briefing that we were given in the seminar was about what parents had told the DWP that they wanted. It informs the decision on whether new clause 2 is right. The DWP publication—“briefing” is probably a better description—is entitled “Childcare support in Universal Credit” and dated May 2011. It states:

“Recent findings from a survey of lone parents on Income support and with a child aged 5-6 found a strong preference for working part-time.”

Among those looking for work or expecting to do so in future, the majority stated a preference for 16 to 29 hours’ work a week, with 45% giving a preference of exactly 16 hours. Why exactly 16 hours? It has been drummed into everyone that they have to go out and work for 16 hours, not a moment less, or they will not get any help with child care. Subsection (5) of new clause 2 makes it clear that the Opposition want that prescribed minimum number of hours a week to remain. In other words, they do not want the mini-job, and yet we know that lone parents show a strong preference for working part-time, which should be respected. People are not here to dance to the Government’s tune: Governments should dance to the tune of the people, and be as flexible, helpful and enabling as people wish.

State Pension Age (Women)

Yvonne Fovargue Excerpts

Wednesday 11th May 2011 Westminster Hall

[Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Erith and Thamesmead (Teresa Pearce) on securing this debate on such an important and unjust matter and on her early-day motion 1402, which has secured 138 signatures from across all the main parties.

I also congratulate Age UK on the campaign that it has been running. Those of us who get the tube to work in the morning and come up the escalators and into Portcullis house will have seen the posters that adorn the walls. They tell the stories of some of the women who will be affected by these changes. Some of those stories have been related by hon. Members from all parties this morning.

My hon. Friend spoke about some of the organisations that have provided support on this matter, such as Age UK, which I have already mentioned, and Saga. There have also been supportive articles in the Daily Mail and The Guardian. There is a broad coalition against the proposal, and we hope that the Government will take on board some of criticisms of the Pensions Bill, especially of clause 1 and the increase in the state pension age.

People who are approaching retirement say, “This is a bit like a horizon. You can always see it in the distance, but you can never quite get to it.” As my hon. Friends the Members for Sunderland Central (Julie Elliott) and for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith) have said, the goalposts just keep moving, and that does not seem fair, especially when people are trying to make the right decisions. They plan, contribute, bring up families and care for relatives, yet they are being penalised.

[Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab)]

Does my hon. Friend agree with my constituent who said that she felt discriminated against when she started work 30 years ago because she was barred from joining a personal pension scheme? She feels discriminated against now because of her date of birth and the fact that her pension will be delayed.

[Rachel Reeves]

I could not agree more. That is a big issue and one that I will address later. For a number of reasons, this group of women are particularly ill-equipped to deal with the changes that the Government are trying to force upon them.

I want to pick up on a couple of points raised by the hon. Members for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) and for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke). The proposals go against the coalition agreement, which states:

“The parties agree to…hold a review to set the date at which the state pension age starts to rise to 66, although it will not be sooner than 2016 for men and 2020 for women.”

These changes bring forward the equalisation of the state pension age to 2018, which is not mentioned in the coalition agreement, and they raise the state pension age for women to 66 in 2018—two years earlier than promised in the agreement.

Although there is increasing pressure on the Liberal Democrats to stick with the coalition agreement, there is no obligation on the Minister to support this breach or for coalition MPs to vote for it. No one in the country voted for this at the general election a year ago, and it is not what coalition MPs signed up to when they made their promises in the rose garden. We have heard a great deal from Liberal Democrat Members today. I hope that that means that people who are approaching retirement can feel that their MPs will not support these proposals.

To reiterate points that have already been made, 2.6 million women and 2.3 million men will have to wait longer for their state pension than they previously had been told. Some 500,000 women will have a delay of a year before they get their pensions and about 300,000 women will have a delay of 18 months or more. Unfortunately, 33,000 women who were born between early March and early April 1954 will have to wait another two years before they receive their state pension. I have been lobbied by a huge number of women on these issues, not least by my own mother who was born on 30 March 1954. She very much hopes that the Minister will be listening to every word that I say today.

There is fewer than five years’ notice before these changes take effect. The Turner report says that people should be given at least 15 years’ notice, and the Pensions Policy Institute believes that these changes do not give enough notice. Women need longer to prepare for changes in the state pension age because they tend to become part-time workers sooner than men of the same age.

As of April 2011, the basic state pension is worth £102.15 a week. Pension credit is worth £137.35 a week. Those women who are seeing a delay in their state pension age of two years face a loss of pension income of more than £10,000. For those in receipt of pension credit, that loss is closer to £15,000. That does not take into account the passported benefits that come along with a pension.

Longevity is increasing and Members from all parts of the House welcome that, but we cannot move the goalposts every time an actuary changes his forecast. Six months before the election, the Minister himself said:

“Pension policy needs to be stable and predictable years ahead, not made up on the back of a cigarette packet.”

I agree with the Minister. Although his words are still on his website, he is now making policy up on the back of that cigarette packet and it is hitting women particularly hard. Indeed, the recently published Green Paper on the flat rate pension consults on reasoned mechanisms for increasing the state pension age, which is a recognition of the unfairness that is being imposed on women by the Pensions Bill, which is just about to come to the House. That Green Paper does not include consultation on arbitrary changes with five years’ notice. The reason that it does not consult on those types of changes is because the Minister, his Department and the Government know that they are unfair. So why is he forcing them upon women who are 56 or 57 years old?

My hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland Central talked about the savings of women who are 56 or 57. There is something particularly perverse about targeting that specific group, because those women who are 56 or 57 now have average pension savings of £9,100, compared to the average pension savings of men of the same age of £52,800. At retirement, pension savings of £9,100 work out at £564 a year or £11 a week. The reasons for the difference in the average pension savings of men and women are varied, but the key point is that these women I am talking about are not in a financial position to absorb the changes being proposed at such short notice.

These women have earned far less during their lives than men of the same age. In 1980, the gender pay gap was 28.5%. When these women were in their 20s, they were earning on average almost 30% less than men of the same age. The gender pay gap has been closing since 1980 and it is now about 16%, but the point is that these women have suffered inequality throughout their working lives. They now face a double whammy and are paying the price for getting us there too quickly.

In addition, a lot of these women have worked part-time at some point in their life, particularly when they were bringing up children. In fact, many of them are also working part-time now, to help to care for elderly parents or grandchildren. As other Members have said already, these women are the big society. They are doing the caring work that we value as much as their work in the workplace. Of course, many of them have also had interrupted careers and have not paid full national insurance contributions. The Minister’s own Department estimates that women are entitled to receive £30 less in their basic state pension than men. All those points show that these women are more reliant on the state pension than their male equivalents, first because they have much lower private occupational pension savings and secondly because they are in not such a good position as men to increase their savings in the next five years.