European Union (Referendum) Bill

William Bain Excerpts

Friday 8th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mike Gapes]

My guess is that if we had left the EU, the rest of the EU would not necessarily regard us as a country to which it owed any favours, to put it mildly. Presumably we could appeal to the United Nations, but given the problems we have had in the so-called Special Committee on Decolonisation in the UN over the years, and the way in which countries such as Argentina have behaved with regard to other British overseas territories, we would be in a difficult position. The people of Gibraltar would be in a very difficult position, because if they wished to stay in the European Union, they would presumably have to find some way of getting Spain to sponsor their membership of the EU. Britain would have deserted and betrayed them.

[Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point that applies to other British overseas territories that have associate status with the EU and that benefit from trade, sustainable development and regional co-operation. Is he aware, for example, that the Falkland Islands receives, €4 million a year directly through such arrangements? How will their people’s wishes or intentions be considered in this process if they are not included in the franchise?

[Mr Kevan Jones]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I know that we are considering a private Member’s Bill, but is it in order for its promoter, the hon. Member for Stockton South (James Wharton), to be taking advice from Foreign Office civil servants in the Box?

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[Mike Gapes]

I was halfway through giving way, Madam Deputy Speaker. Has my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain) concluded his intervention?

[Mr Bain]

indicated assent.

[Mike Gapes]

My hon. Friend has concluded. As an aside, perhaps the solution for the Government would be to appoint the hon. Member for Stockton South (James Wharton) as a PPS for today so that such difficulties could be avoided. Perhaps that could be conveyed rapidly to the powers that be.

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[Madam Deputy Speaker]

The Minister has concluded his remarks.

[Mr Bain]

I rise to support amendment 69. I would also like to comment on other amendments, including those tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes).

Some important points have been raised about the franchise. The first I would take up is the one about EU nationals. I have a regular correspondence with a Danish constituent in the Hogganfield part of my constituency who is married to a UK national, and has the right to vote in a Scottish Parliament election, a local government election in Scotland and European elections in this country. He will have the right to vote in the Scottish referendum, but under the Bill as drafted by the hon. Member for Stockton South (James Wharton) he will not have the right to vote in this referendum.

That throws up an interesting anomaly. We know that one of the implications of the Scottish referendum is that Scotland would no longer be an EU member state. Therefore, my constituent is being allowed the opportunity to vote once on whether to stay in the EU, but in the event of Scotland’s voting to stay in the UK he would be denied the opportunity to vote a second time on whether to stay part of the EU as a citizen of the UK. Such anomalies show the mess that the hon. Gentleman and the Government are getting themselves into with the Bill as currently drafted.

My hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South mentioned prisoners’ right to vote. Of course none of us in the House wants prisoners who have been convicted of serious offences or given long sentences to be given the right to vote, but an important point in relation to the franchise of prisoners in referendums came up in the discussion about the Scottish referendum. It is regrettable that we have not been joined by the Attorney-General because we would have benefited from his good counsel on that point. There is case law from the European Court of Human Rights in 2008. That says that article 3 of protocol 1, which deals with the right to vote and participate in democratic votes, says that that right is qualified, is limited to the choice of the legislature and does not apply to the election of a Head of State or indeed to referendums.

[Steve McCabe]

I wonder whether my hon. Friend thinks it is also regrettable that we have not been joined this morning by the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, the hon. Member for Boston and Skegness (Mark Simmonds), who has responsibility for British overseas territories. He could have dealt with some of the issues that my hon. Friend has raised. Much as I love to hear the Minister for Europe’s comments, he seemed slightly reluctant to engage with those issues in his contribution.

[Mr Bain]

My hon. Friend is clairvoyant in picking up that ambience from the Minister for Europe. I hope that we will hear more from hon. Members who are willing to comment on these issues later in the debate.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

I wonder what bearing the fairly recent debate and vote that the House had on prisoners’ entitlements to vote will have on the amendment. In the light of the detailed way in which my hon. Friend has explained the difference between referendums and other elections, does that vote have a bearing on whether the amendment should or should not be put before the House?

[Mr Bain]

My hon. Friend raises an important point. One of the issues that must accompany the referendum debate is the cost and potential cost to the taxpayer. That is why we need a definitive opinion from the UK Government and the relevant Law Officer about whether the ruling in the Polish case in 2008 would apply to this referendum. If it did, that would mean that there would be no money incurred, potentially, through legal disputes raised by prisoners who were not given the right to vote. That is why we need guidance from the Attorney-General and from the promoter of the Bill on the legal position.

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[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

That is not a point of order. It is entirely up to Members to indicate when they want to speak. In fact, I have a long list of Members who have indicated that they want to speak in this debate, and it would be good to make some progress.

[Mr Bain]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I hope that the Prime Minister will grace us with his presence later, given his keen interest in the Bill.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

A crucial point is the cost of compensation resulting from prisoners mounting challenges under the legislation. Would my hon. Friend be willing to give way if the promoter of the Bill—

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. That is quite enough. If the promoter of the Bill wishes to take part in the debate, he will indicate that in the normal way. I do not require Mr Bain to comment on that. I would like him to speak to his amendment and the other amendments that we are discussing.

[Mr Bain]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

I fully support the amendment on votes at 16 tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South. It is clear that 16 and 17-year-olds will have the right to vote in the Scottish referendum, and I support that right for all elections. It is intolerable that, as Demos showed in 2010, 16 and 17-year-olds contributed £500 million in taxes over the preceding 10 years but are still disfranchised.

[Mr Sheerman]

Will my hon. Friend give way on that point?

[Mr Bain]

I know that my hon. Friend will have a different view.

[Mr Sheerman]

My hon. Friend will remember that, in Committee, I was embarrassed when my name was accidentally attached to an amendment in favour of votes at 16. I was put in the embarrassing position of having to speak and vote against “my” amendment. Is it not amazing that up to this point we have had no debate on this major constitutional change this morning? In my view, we are going down a dangerous path, yet we have not debated the matter until now.

[Mr Bain]

My hon. Friend, who has been a Member of the House since 1979, raises his objections with his customary vigour. I strongly support the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South.

[Chris Williamson]

Is my hon. Friend aware of the Power Commission, funded by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, which spent a considerable amount of time looking into the workings of British democracy? It made an unequivocal recommendation that the franchise should be lowered to enable 16 and 17-year-olds to vote in our elections.

[Mr Bain]

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend’s point. In this Parliament, I and many of my hon. Friends have already voted in the referendum on electoral reform to give 16 and 17-year-olds the right to vote. My support for the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South is consistent with that line of thinking and with my voting record in the House.

Amendment 69 raises an important question. The Minister has already conceded that there is a need to extend the franchise to the people of Gibraltar, but there is another group of individuals who would be significantly affected by the result of any referendum held under the Bill if it became law. They are the 260,000 people living in the British overseas territories, which include Anguilla, Bermuda, the British Antarctic Territory, the British Indian Ocean Territory, the British Virgin Islands, the Cayman Islands, the Falkland Islands, Montserrat, the Pitcairn Islands, South Georgia, the South Sandwich Islands, St Helena, Ascension Island and Tristan da Cunha, and the Turks and Caicos Islands. Those territories’ relationship with the European Union is connected to our membership of the EU.

[Mr Kevan Jones]

The hon. Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell) moved the new clause on Gibraltar. Is my hon. Friend aware that, on 26 January 2012, the hon. Gentleman made comments in the press calling for all overseas territories to be represented here at Westminster? I wonder why he now wants to exclude them from this important EU vote.

[Mr Bain]

The hon. Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell) will be accountable for his own statements, but given the consistent line of reasoning that he takes in his politics, I should have thought that he would want to be consistent by showing his approval of amendment 69 later.

Article 198 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union sets out the relationship between many of the British overseas territories and the EU. That provision allows them to form association agreements and to opt into the provisions on the free movement of workers and the freedom of establishment within the EU. All of that would be affected if the result of the referendum were to take the United Kingdom out of the EU.

The British overseas territories are not part of the EU, but EU law applies to them indirectly. It is important in regulating the trade relationships that many of the territories have with the EU, for example. Many of the islands are relatively small, and they are highly dependent on what they can export. Import tariff levels are also a significant factor in their economies. The overseas territory agreements with the EU benefit the territories through non-reciprocal preferential trade boosts and through the most generous form of tariffs. The territories’ associate status could be severely affected by the votes of people in the United Kingdom, but at present the Bill provides no ability for them to consent to such an arrangement. They would not be given the franchise in the referendum. That is a real anomaly, and the hon. Member for Stockton South must address it.

Part 4 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union applies to the British overseas territories. The territories have regular tripartite meetings with the EU, as well as partnership meetings. As I said in an intervention on my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South, under the current multi-annual financial framework, many of the territories receive money directly from the EU. They could suffer severe financial losses as a result of the referendum, yet the Bill in its current form does not allow them to consent to a change in their relationship with the European Union. The Falkland Islands receives €4 million a year as a direct result of its associate relationship with the EU. Anguilla receives €11.7 million a year and Montserrat receives €15.66 million a year. Does the hon. Member for Stockton South believe that the UK Government should indemnify those territories for the loss of that funding? Has he even raised the matter with the Minister?

These are crucial questions, and the hon. Gentleman and the Minister must satisfy the House that the people of those territories, who will be significantly affected by the Bill, will have an opportunity to be consulted and to have their say; otherwise, a gaping anomaly will remain at the heart of this deeply unsatisfactory Bill.

[Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)]

Amendment 44 deals with the question of giving 16 and 17-year-olds the vote. I am well qualified to speak about that, because I represent one of the youngest constituencies in the UK. About a third of my constituents are younger than 24 and just over a fifth are under the age of 16. As hon. Members can imagine, I have some interesting discussions with sixth formers in my constituency about this subject, which is debated hotly among local 16 and 17-year-olds.

Over the three years since this Government came to power, one issue that has galvanised young people about politics from a parliamentary perspective—many of them were active politically in a wider sense—is the withdrawal of the education maintenance allowance, and I was pleased that some Hackney sixth formers came here to speak to a Select Committee about the impact of that. About 80% of that cohort were in receipt of that benefit, so the loss of it made them feel suddenly connected to Parliament, yet disconnected because they did not have a vote.

I have met our local Youth Parliament representative a couple of times. He is very much in favour of this approach, but I have to say that support for votes at 16 is not unanimous among 16 and 17-year-olds—[Interruption.] I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman) has strong feelings about this in the contrary direction. I think we need to have a reasoned debate about the issue. Scotland is moving in the direction of at least experimenting with this as an option.

When I talk to young people about the subject, some are nervous about it, some are downright opposed and some are very much in favour. Even those in favour sometimes admit difficulties because they feel that they do not know enough. They say, humblingly to me, “But, Miss, we are not informed enough to make decisions.” They have a laudable belief that being informed is a prerequisite to being a political representative or to voting. If every adult in this country had the same view, we would probably have an even smaller turnout at elections than we do now.

I believe that giving people the vote at 16 is the right way forward. It would ingrain voting habits early. It is a bit like learning to clean teeth from the age of two, because if people do something day in, day out, or year in, year out—or five years in, five years out for voting—they are encouraged to keep doing it, and that would be the case for voting. We all know that one reason why the Government have chosen not to touch some issues that would affect pensioners—they are not affected by the bedroom tax or cuts to council tax benefits—is the fact that people of pensionable age are more likely to vote than young people. I do not think that anyone in this place wilfully ignores young people, but we have to recognise that, beneath our national party strategists doing endless work through Mosaic and number-crunching, there is a ruthless look at how people vote. Bringing in votes for people at 16 or 17 could make a big difference to how young people are listened to up and down the country.

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[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. The hon. Gentleman can resume his seat. He has already attempted to make a point of order. He has received an answer from Mr Speaker, and he may well have an opportunity at some point in the future to make a debating point during a debate, but it is not a point of order.

Clause 1

Referendum on the United Kingdom’s membership of the European Union

[Mr Bain]

I beg to move amendment 68, page 1, line 3, at end insert—

‘(1A) Before the appointment of the day on which the referendum is to be held, the Secretary of State shall consult the bodies listed in the Schedule (Organisations to be consulted before a referendum on the United Kingdom’s membership of the European Union) on the merits or otherwise of the United Kingdom remaining a member of the European Union and shall lay before Parliament a report of the consultation.’.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 76, page 1, line 4, leave out subsection 2.

Amendment 21, page 1, line 4, leave out from ‘held’ to end of line 6 and insert ‘on 7 May 2015’.

Amendment 3, page 1, line 4, leave out ‘before 31 December 2017’ and insert ‘on 23 October 2014’.

Amendment 25, page 1, line 4, leave out ‘31 December 2017’ and insert ‘1 July 2017’.

Amendment 22, page 1, line 4, leave out ‘2017’ and insert ‘2014’.

Amendment 23, page 1, line 4, leave out ‘2017’ and insert ‘2015’.

Amendment 24, page 1, line 4, leave out ‘2017’ and insert ‘2016’.

Amendment 26, page 1, line 4, leave out ‘2017’ and insert ‘2018’.

Amendment 27, page 1, line 4, leave out ‘2017’ and insert ‘2019’.

Amendment 77, page 1, line 4, after ‘2017’, insert ‘and not between 31 July and 1 December 2017’.

Amendment 4, page 1, line 5, leave out subsection (3).

Amendment 58, page 1, line 5, leave out subsection (3) and insert—

‘(3) The Secretary of State shall establish a European Union Referendum Commission to consider the date or dates on which the referendum is to be held.

(3A) The Commission shall report to the Secretary of State within 12 months of its establishment.

(3B) The Secretary of State shall by order provide for the date or dates to be implemented as recommended by the Commission.’.

Amendment 59, page 1, line 5, leave out subsection (3) and insert—

‘(3A) The Commission shall consult with and seek to secure agreement from the devolved administrations on the date or dates to be appointed for the referendum.’.

Amendment 62, page 1, line 5, leave out subsection (3) and insert—

‘(3) The date shall be appointed in accordance with the conclusions of the Speaker’s Committee for the Referendum on the United Kingdom’s membership of the European Union, as established under Schedule (Speaker’s Committee for the Referendum on the United Kingdom’s membership of the European Union).’.

Amendment 28, page 1, line 5, leave out ‘31 December 2016’ and insert ‘7 May 2015’.

Amendment 31, page 1, line 5, leave out ‘31 December 2016’ and insert ‘1 July 2017’.

Amendment 29, page 1, line 5, leave out ‘2016’ and insert ‘2014’.

Amendment 30, page 1, line 5, leave out ‘2016’ and insert ‘2015’.

Amendment 32, page 1, line 5, leave out ‘2016’ and insert ‘2017’.

Amendment 33, page 1, line 5, leave out ‘2016’ and insert ‘2018’.

Amendment 12, page 1, line 6, at end insert—

‘(3A) Before appointing the day on which the referendum is to be held under subsection (3) above, the Secretary of State shall consult leaders of the principal faiths represented in the United Kingdom so as to identify days which it would be inappropriate for him to appoint for holding the referendum, and he shall pay due regard to the outcome of those consultations in appointing the day.’.

Amendment 13, page 1, line 6, at end insert—

‘(7) The day on which the referendum is to be held shall not be the same day as—

(a) a general election for the United Kingdom Parliament;

(b) elections to the European Parliament;

(c) a Scottish parliamentary general election;

(d) a Welsh Assembly general election;

(e) a general election for members of the Northern Ireland Assembly;

(f) any local government election;

(g) a mayoral election in London; and

the terms above shall be defined as in section 4 of the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act 2011.’.

Amendment 70, page 1, line 6, at end insert ‘, subject to subsection (3A) below.

‘(3A) The Secretary of State may not appoint a day on which the referendum is to be held until he has published a detailed analysis of the consequences of the United Kingdom—

(a) remaining, or

(b) not remaining a member of the European Union, including—

(i) the economic and social consequences of withdrawal from the European Union for the people of the United Kingdom,

(ii) the consequences for the United Kingdom’s overseas territories,

(iii) the consequences for prevention of crime and terrorism in the United Kingdom,

(iv) the consequences for climate change and the environment of the United Kingdom, and

(v) the consequences for the effectiveness of the foreign policy of the United Kingdom.’.

Amendment 78, page 1, line 6, at end insert—

‘(3A) The date appointed under subsection 1(3) must not be less than 28 weeks in advance of the proposed polling day.’.

Amendment 9, page 1, line 14, at end add—

‘(7) The referendum shall be held on Thursday.’.

Amendment 10, page 1, line 14, at end add—

‘(7) The referendum shall be held over two days on a Saturday and Sunday.’.

Amendment 11, page 1, line 14, at end add—

‘(7) The referendum shall be held over three days on a Thursday, Friday and Saturday.’.

New schedule 1—‘Speaker’s Committee for the referendum on the United Kingdom’s membership of the European Union—

( ) There is to be a committee known as the Speaker’s Committee for the Referendum on the United Kingdom’s membership of the European Union (“the Committee”) to consider the day to be appointed for the referendum.

( ) The Speaker’s Committee shall consist of the Speaker of the House of Commons, who shall be the chair of the Committee, and the following other members, namely—

(a) the Member of the House of Commons who is for the time being the Chair of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee of the House of Commons;

(b) the Lord President of the Council;

(c) a Member of the House of Commons who is a Minister of the Crown with responsibilities in relation to foreign affairs; and

(d) five Members of the House of Commons who are not Ministers of the Crown.

( ) The member of the Committee specified in subsection (2)(c) shall be appointed to membership of the Committee by the Prime Minister.

( ) The members of the Committee specified in subsection (2)(d) shall be appointed to membership of the Committee by the Speaker of the House of Commons.

( ) The Speaker’s Committee shall make a report to the House of Commons on the exercise by the Committee of their functions.’.

New schedule 2—“Organisations to be consulted before a referendum on the United Kingdom’s membership of the European Union—

(a) the Confederation for British Industry,

(b) the National Farmers Union,

(c) the Trades Union Congress,

(d) the National Association of Citizens Advice Bureaux,

(e) the Association of Chief Police Officers,

(f) Universities UK,

(g) the National Council of Voluntary Organisations,

(h) Friends of the Earth,

(i) the Local Government Association, and

(j) other organisations as the Secretary of State shall see fit.’.

[Mr Bain]

It is a pleasure to speak in the Chamber for the first time under your chairmanship, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is a delight.

I shall speak to amendments 68 and 70, in my name, as well as new schedule 2, which is also in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr Hain). The reason why this group of amendments is so important is that the discussions between the Bill’s promoter, the hon. Member for Stockton South (James Wharton), and the Government have been in many ways one-sided. It has been an internal discussion within the Conservative party. It is time that that discussion is broadened out to include all the interest groups and all the people of this country who would be affected by the Bill and who would be affected—in my view, very badly indeed—if Britain chose to withdraw from the European Union.

[Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

Does the Labour party accept the principle that there should be a referendum at all?

[Hon. Members]

Answer!

[Mr Bain]

The answer remains the same as on Second Reading: we do not believe that now is the right time to focus on this kind of agenda. The problem is that the hon. Gentleman is in search of a treaty but with no idea about the reform. We in the Opposition know what reforms we want in the European Union, but we have not had support from the Conservatives and the other Government Members. That is the difference between our two positions.

It is interesting to notice that when the House has to rely on the right hon. Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), who once toured the country in a truck proclaiming “24 hours to save the pound,” as any kind of moderating influence on the Conservative party on Europe, it shows what a path of self-destruction that party has embarked upon on Europe.

Amendments 68 and 70 would ensure that there was proper consultation with the CBI, the TUC, the National Farmers Union and many other interest groups across our country that would be seriously affected if there were a vote to withdraw.

[Ian Murray]

This is the crux of a very important debate not just about the Bill, but in general about membership of the European Union. Does my hon. Friend think the Government will object to the amendment on the basis that they do not want to hear the answers from those august organisations because they disagree with the Government’s position?

[Mr Bain]

My hon. Friend points to the inconvenient truth for the Government and for the promoter of the Bill that we have already had some of the answers this week, with the CBI setting out that the benefit of being part of the European Union means that every household is £3,000 a year better off and every individual in this country is at least £1,200 a year better off. What is clear from the Bill is that neither its promoter nor the Government have any idea about the consequences of a yes vote, because they cannot say on what terms they wish the UK to remain part of the EU, and even more damagingly, they cannot set out the consequences or implications of a no vote.

[Seema Malhotra]

Is my hon. Friend aware of the recent London Chamber of Commerce report “Help or hindrance? The value of EU membership to UK business”, which states that the majority of its members believe that exiting the EU would negatively impact on their business and the UK’s economy, and that this supports the view expressed by the CBI?

[Mr Bain]

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. She will know as well as business, the trade unions and many other organisations in this country that as part of the European Union, we are party to 36 free trade agreements with more than 50 other partners across the world. She will also know, as the CBI knows, that we have the prospect of concluding negotiations with Japan, the United States and Canada that will increase the market for our goods in those countries to a potential £47 trillion a year. These are all goals that would be lost if we chose to leave the European Union.

[Mike Gapes]

My hon. Friend is no doubt aware that a free trade agreement has recently been agreed with Canada. Another was agreed about 18 months ago with South Korea. Both of those are clearly of great benefit to British companies. The South Korean one has led to a massive increase in UK exports to South Korea. Does he agree that by leaving the EU we would put in jeopardy not only the free trade agreement with the US, but the prospect of Britain benefiting from the markets made accessible by EU free trade arrangements with other parts of the world?

[Mr Bain]

My hon. Friend is right. The prospect of having to renegotiate 130 separate free trade agreements with partners across the globe is a truly desperate and scary one for business and exporters in this country. The reason that we need amendments 68 and 70 and new schedule 2 is to make sure that the Government address systematically the crucial points that the CBI made in its study this week.

What are the implications of a no vote? What are the implications of leaving? The CBI said this week that going it alone as a sole country within the World Trade Organisation, without the collective strength that negotiating power within the EU gives us, would see us lose influence and trade. The CBI said that the Norway option of leaving the European Union but remaining in the European economic area—although, as we know, Norway is a net contributor to the EU budget—was a weaker option, and that the Swiss option of pick-and-choose bilateral agreements was also a weaker option for the United Kingdom. Moreover, it said that the Turkish option of simply having a customs union with the European Union was the worst of all the halfway alternatives.

[Mr Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con)]

The hon. Gentleman is quoting the CBI. Is this the same CBI that said that the UK would face economic ruination if it did not join the euro?

[Mr Bain]

I am somewhat perplexed. The Conservative party has for decades, if not centuries, marketed itself as the party of business, but we now find Conservative Members in complete opposition to what the CBI is saying is in the best economic interests of this country. I think that most people will find that staggering.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Mr Bain]

Yes.

[Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am reading the amendment very carefully. It talks about the need to consult before the referendum

“on the merits or otherwise of the United Kingdom remaining a member of the European Union”,

but is that a pretext for us now to have a debate about the merits or otherwise of remaining in the European Union, or should we stick to the amendment?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

The hon. Gentleman is correct to suggest that it is not a pretext. I am listening very carefully to the hon. Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain), and if he strays into the area that the hon. Gentleman has suggested he might, then he will not be allowed to stray further.

[Mr Bain]

I give way to my hon. Friend.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

It is very good to make my first intervention under your chairmanship, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I will comply with your very helpful guidance.

I suggest that my hon. Friend’s amendment and the other amendments to do with the timing of a vote are a distraction, because the timing is about what is politically more advantageous. The point is that the National Farmers Union and the Food and Drink Federation, which represents the biggest manufacturing sector in this country, have echoed the CBI’s words. For many people, it is not about timing—it is about getting out of the EU.

[Mr Bain]

My hon. Friend is entirely right. As a specialist in the common agricultural policy and the needs of our rural economy, he knows that it is incumbent on the Government to spell out the consequences of leaving the European Union—what a yes vote in the referendum would mean and what a no vote would mean.

It is intriguing that the CBI, having requested more information and explored the potential consequences of a vote to leave the European Union, concluded:

“While the UK could certainly survive outside the EU, none of the alternatives suggested offers a clear path to an improved balance of advantages and disadvantages or greater influence.”

[Mr Jenkin]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is quite clear that the hon. Gentleman is using this debate as a vehicle to make the CBI’s case in favour of membership of the European Union. That is not the subject of the amendment, which he should be sticking to.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his point. I am certain that the hon. Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain) will not use the next few minutes to do what the hon. Gentleman has suggested he might. I am sure that he will stick very carefully to discussing those who will be consulted within the strict terms of his amendment and no further.

[Mr Bain]

Absolutely, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Through these amendments, I seek to give Parliament and, indeed, many interest groups in wider society the degree of consultation that was given in the 1975 referendum.

[Ian Murray]

The CBI has consulted its members and said that eight out of 10 of them, including 77% of small and medium-sized enterprises, say that we should remain within the European Union. That is why it is important that this amendment is accepted, so that the number of bodies that are consulted on this very important constitutional change is as wide as possible.

[Mr Bain]

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend.

It is interesting to explain the purpose behind these amendments, and I can best do so by contrasting the referendum proposed in this Bill with the referendum that was held in 1975, when two White Papers were issued on the terms of the renegotiation between the United Kingdom and our European partners. That was prior to the Bill’s publication and its being presented to Parliament. When Parliament was asked on that occasion to consider legislation to establish a referendum, it knew the full details of the implications of a no vote and, indeed, a yes vote for the electorate. That is what my amendments seek to put into the Bill, because, as drafted, it simply does not achieve that aim.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

In probing amendment 68, may I ask my hon. Friend whether he envisages consulting organisations such as the Farmers Union of Wales, NFU Cymru and the National Farmers Union in Scotland and in England? That would be important because of their specific interests in the European Union and because they have expressed their clear desire not to leave.

[Mr Bain]

That is correct and I agree with my hon. Friend in his ambition to make sure that when the Government produce proper documents to accompany any referendum, they take into account the interests of farmers and the rural economy. Leaving the EU would have profound implications for this country’s farming industry.

[Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)]

I have received representations from Shropshire farmers who very much want to remain in the European Union, but they will have the chance to be consulted, and to vote, in the referendum. Why do we need a separate process beforehand?

[Mr Bain]

If I may point out some of the problems with the hon. Gentleman’s argument, the reason for my amendments is that when a similar referendum was held in 1975, this House had had the benefit of two White Papers, a full debate and a full consultation. None of that has accompanied this Bill. It is because the interests of the farming industry, exporters and workers—whose rights at work might be diminished by the renegotiations—have not been considered that we should put the amendments in the Bill. The Government need to consult on the real interests of this country, not simply have an internal conversation within the Conservative party.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

Perhaps I have a helpful suggestion with regard to amendment 68. When Wales held a referendum on the Government of Wales Act 2006, my right hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr Hain) pulled together wider civic society. A similar action with regard to this Bill would particularly help Wales, which benefits to the tune of roughly £40 of surplus per head as a result of farming and structural funds. We could pull voices together if the amendment is agreed to.

[Mr Bain]

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend.

I want to further explain the reasons for and rationale behind my amendments by examining the context of the referendum that will take place on these islands, in Scotland, next year. I may have my differences with the UK Government, but I entirely agree with the way in which they have published a series of detailed, factual accounts looking at the consequences for Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom of Scotland’s leaving the UK. They have explored the consequences for macro-economic policy and the impact on trade, financial services and business. The publications have been produced by the Government even before the Scottish Parliament has fully passed its legislation to establish the question for next year’s referendum. If that process is good enough for the referendum in Scotland, it should be good enough for any referendum that the Bill’s promoter and the Government are keen to have.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

Is not the key point that the Conservative party cannot even carry the Government, of whom it is a member, to produce a White Paper, because the Liberal Democrats, who are also in the Government, would not support it? The Conservative party is so weak and divided that it cannot even produce its own White Paper.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Bain]

The purpose of the amendment is to ensure that this issue receives a similar assessment to what we have seen in Scotland. There should be an assessment of the impact on business of having different technical standards to meet if bilateral agreements have to be made with our EU partners instead of the comprehensive right of free trade that we have at the moment.

[Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)]

The referendum will not be tomorrow, but in 2017. There will be plenty of time for White Papers and consultations with whoever the hon. Gentleman likes, whether it is the CBI or anyone else. Are not his amendments a Trojan horse because he and his party do not want a referendum and do not want to give the British people a say in whether or not we remain in the European Union?

[Mr Bain]

We are trying to clarify what the Government and the promoter of the Bill want the public to have a say on. They have not said what terms they would accept to stay in the EU and they have not explained what the consequences would be if we had to leave the EU following a referendum. That is the information that we need, but it has been denied to the House and the country so far.

[Mr Sheerman]

I am certainly not anti-referendum. However, when a Bill is introduced through the back door by manipulating private Members’ business, it shortcuts all the proper procedures and safeguards. We argued in Committee that those safeguards should be introduced into the Bill.

[Mr Bain]

That is a pertinent and well made point.

[Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)]

Further to the intervention by my hon. Friend the Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman), is it the case that the Bill has received no pre-legislative scrutiny and that no evidence has been taken?

[Mr Bain]

Sadly, that is correct. Before I became a Member of this House, I watched with great enthusiasm the passage of equivalent pieces of legislation, such as the devolution legislation of 1997, the Human Rights Act 1998, the Freedom of Information Act 2000 and the House of Lords Act 1999. Those Acts were of prime constitutional importance and they were well scrutinised by this House and the implications were well debated by Members. We have simply not seen that with this Bill.

[Mike Gapes]

Is not the reason for this strange arrangement that there could be no consultation because it would never have been agreed to in Government? We therefore have the bizarre process of debating a private Member’s Bill that is backed by Ministers.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

Order. Once again, I am sure that the hon. Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain) will recognise that that intervention was not in order because it did not relate to the matter in hand.

[Mr Bain]

Thank you for that ruling, Madam Deputy Speaker.

There is an even stronger parallel to be drawn between the amendment and the Scottish referendum. The Government claimed rightly in January 2012 that setting an arbitrary date four years in the future for a referendum on a plan for Scotland to separate from the United Kingdom would create unnecessary uncertainty for inward investment and business. How can the Government believe that it is appropriate to have four years of uncertainty before a referendum on the United Kingdom’s membership of the European Union? Surely the same argument applies, particularly given that the EU referendum, unlike its Scottish counterpart, would be conducted on the basis of a pre-negotiated treaty to alter the conditions of membership, which the Prime Minister may not even be able to achieve.

Let us not forget that the Prime Minister hopes to pull off the coup of negotiating such a treaty at a time when the UK will hold the presidency of the EU and ought to be prioritising the completion of the single market and boosting growth, jobs and trade; when there will just have been a French presidential election; and in the run-up to the next German federal elections. The window for getting the type of treaty that the Prime Minister believes is possible will be very small.