12:29 - The House having divided: - Ayes: 293 / Noes: 32 - Question accordingly agreed to.
12:47 - The House having divided: - Ayes: 299 / Noes: 0 - Question accordingly agreed to.
Mike Gapes
No, I am afraid I want to conclude my remarks, because other Members wish to speak.
The Crown dependencies, including their very important financial institutions, would also be affected, so should be allowed to vote. We have discussed British overseas territories, so I will not spend any longer on that point, and we have also talked about Gibraltar at length. The important point is this: my amendments expose the Bill’s inadequacy and need for proper consideration and scrutiny. I hope the House will provide that and support at least some of my amendments.
The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)
In response to the point from my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood), I wish to make it clear that, in respect of this Bill, as has been the case with at least one or two other Bills since the 2010 general election, the two governing parties have agreed to differ in their approaches to a referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU.
I want to address the various points made about Gibraltar.
Martin Horwood
Given the point of order raised by the sage and right hon. Member for Warley (Mr Spellar), will the Minister clarify in what capacity he is now speaking?
Mr Lidington
I am speaking as a Minister at the Foreign Office and, as always, as a member of the Conservative party to make clear my view of the amendments and, in particular, to respond to the points made in Committee by Members representing different political parties about extending the franchise to the people of Gibraltar.
Mr Lidington
I have taken advice on this matter, including legal advice, so that I can be confident of giving the House an accurate commentary on the effects of the new clause tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton South (James Wharton).
Mr Lidington
In Committee, I undertook to review this question, in response to points made by the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman), who I do not think is in his place any longer, and by other Labour, Liberal Democrat and Conservative Members who argued that Gibraltarians should receive the franchise, in view of the fact that Gibraltar was perhaps uniquely affected among our overseas territories by the question of Britain’s membership, or otherwise, of the EU.
Madam Deputy Speaker
Mr Jones, you know full well that that is not a point of order. It is entirely up to the Minister or the Member who has the Floor to decide to whom they give way, but perhaps the Minister could indicate to the House whether he wishes to make some progress.
Mr Lidington
Members from all three main parties have made some serious points about Gibraltar.
Mr Lidington
I intend to continue with my remarks and respond to the points made about new clause 1 and then to respond briefly to the points made by the hon. Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes), so I do not intend to give way to those who are seeking to intervene at the moment.
Under the 2006 constitution of Gibraltar, the United Kingdom is responsible for Gibraltar’s external relations, including its membership of international organisations. For example, the United Kingdom would be at risk of infraction proceedings if the Government of Gibraltar failed to implement EU legislation. Gibraltar’s association with the EU is itself founded on the UK’s membership and the terms of Gibraltar’s association are set out in declaration 55 attached to the treaties of the European Union. To those hon. Members who have asked, “What would happen if in 2017 the UK voted to leave the EU?”, the answer is that in subsequent negotiations about the UK’s future relationship with the EU, the future relationship of Gibraltar with the EU and the acquis would have to form one aspect of those considerations.
Mr Thomas
I am following very clearly the Minister’s attempted explanation for why subsections (2) and (3) should be written into the Bill. Essentially, I am struggling to understand why he thinks there might be some problem with Gibraltan law preventing the smooth running of a referendum in Gibraltar. Is not the reference to the Colonial Laws Validity Act 1865 a bit of overkill?
Mr Lidington
No, it is not overkill. This is a sensible piece of legislative drafting designed to put it beyond the risk of any misunderstanding or misinterpretation that the underlying constitutional relationship would remain undisturbed, despite the specific and exceptional provisions of the Bill. I would say gently to the hon. Gentleman that if he looks back at the Committee proceedings, he will find that his predecessor as shadow Europe Minister, the hon. Member for Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds), was among those arguing and tabling amendments to extend the franchise to people in Gibraltar through the vehicle of this Bill.
Mr Lidington
I am trying to respond to the hon. Gentleman. As I have said, I have reflected carefully on the points made in Committee by hon. Members on both sides of the House.
Mr Lidington
No. I have consulted the Chief Minister and have concluded that I should give my support and endorsement to the new clause tabled by my hon. Friends the Members for Stockton South and for Romford (Andrew Rosindell). It ill behoves Opposition Front Benchers to try to retreat from a new clause that seeks to give effect to something that they themselves were proposing in an amendment, which was extremely technically deficient, in a debate in Committee.
Mr Lidington
No, I will not.
The hon. Member for Ilford South has tabled many different amendments. He acknowledged that they cover a wide range of issues, which are perfectly legitimate, about the extent of the franchise in the UK. He proposed in one amendment that the UK franchise should be extended to prisoners and in another that the franchise—
Mr Lidington
I am replying to the hon. Member for Ilford South. He proposed amendments that seek to—
Huw Irranca-Davies
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. From the start of the debate, I have listened intently to every word. I believe that perhaps inadvertently the Government Front-Bench spokesman has misrepresented the position of our Front-Bench team. However, he is refusing to give way. Is there any recourse for our Front-Bench team to clarify a point not only of debate but of accuracy?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
I get the gist. It is not a point of order. The Minister has the Floor and is responsible for what he says to the House. Opposition Front Benchers will get their opportunity to speak in the debate. If the Minister does not wish to give way, that is a matter for him. The normal courtesies are that Members give way at some point, but they do not have to do so repeatedly.
Mr Lidington
I am responding to the hon. Member for Ilford South. I am sure that the hon. Member for Harrow West (Mr Thomas) will have a chance to catch Madam Deputy Speaker’s eye in a few minutes if he wishes to go over again the points that were made in Committee.
The hon. Member for Ilford South raised the question of extending the franchise for UK expatriates beyond the 50-year maximum, which would be the effect of at least one of his amendments. He also proposed altering the general election franchise, in effect, to include European citizens as well as UK and Commonwealth citizens. All those are legitimate questions for debate but the purpose of the Bill is to apply the UK’s general election franchise terms to the proposed referendum.
Mike Gapes
Given that we are apparently going to use the UK’s general election criteria, why would there be a major anomaly? The citizens of three EU states would be able to vote in the referendum but others would not. Is that not a strange situation? Citizens of Cyprus, Malta and Ireland would be able to vote but French people living in London could not.
Mr Lidington
It is no more or less anomalous than the situation that applies already at our general elections, where citizens of those European Commonwealth countries who are legally resident here and registered as voters are entitled to participate, whereas nationals of other EU member states who are also lawfully resident are not so entitled to vote in a UK general election. In respect of the hon. Gentleman’s amendments, it would be legitimate for him to use the vehicle of a representation of the people Bill at some stage to seek to alter the terms of the UK’s general election franchise in the way he proposes, but it is not appropriate to use the Bill of my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton South to make such a change when my hon. Friend’s purpose, as I understand it, is to apply the UK’s general election franchise to his proposed referendum. For that reason, I disagree with the amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Ilford South and support the general election franchise as set out by my hon. Friend in his Bill.
Mr Hain
I was planning to do precisely that, Madam Deputy Speaker. I regret having taken so many interventions, otherwise I would have concluded already.
On the argument about sovereignty, under sub-paragraph (j) of new schedule 2 we would consult organisations such as the Royal United Services Institute in respect of our membership of NATO. We have given up sovereignty to be members of NATO, but we have gained extra power and influence. We have given up sovereignty—yes, of course we have—to be members of the European Union, but we have gained extra economic, political and diplomatic influence. If we consulted Friends of the Earth and Greenpeace about the environmental benefits that we have gained by having a say in the policies of the countries right on our border on the continent of Europe, it would be clear that we are a key force in determining those decisions.
All the evidence points to the fact that systematic consultation with all the different parts of our society, all the groups in our society specified in new schedule 2, would give us a great opportunity to go into the debate and decide, if we are to have a referendum at all, when it should be. That would be the great advantage which the Bill, unamended, denies us. More importantly, it denies an obligation on Government to consult and, having consulted over a lengthy period, an obligation to come back to Parliament, and for Parliament to have a considered debate rather than to be stampeded into a referendum next year. For all the reasons given by the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash) and others, that would be the wrong choice, in my view.
Without my amendment being accepted, setting an arbitrary date some time in 2017 could conceivably mean that the referendum would be held right in the middle of the United Kingdom presidency. Imagine the nonsense of doing that and leaving us in an entirely invidious position—indeed, a laughing stock if a referendum took place during that six months.
I hope the promoter of the Bill will reconsider accepting the amendments, and I hope that when the Europe Minister contributes to the debate, he will back them. If either of them does not do so, I have to ask what they are frightened of. Are they frightened of the facts and the arguments being revealed, and the British people deciding either that they do not want a referendum at all on the proposed timetable or, if they do want a referendum at some stage in the future, that staying in the European Union is the right thing to do?
Mr Lidington
The amendments in this group fall into three categories: the significant amendment about consultation spoken to by the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain), the amendments that seek to require the Government to avoid clashes between the referendum and religious holidays or other elections, and the important amendments of various kinds to do with the date in question.
First, I will deal with consultation. I enjoyed the right hon. Gentleman’s speech—his paean to the merits of the European Union and Britain’s membership of it. I find myself in agreement with some elements, such as the successes of the single market, enlargement and Franco-German reconciliation, although he may have underplayed some of the downsides of how the EU currently operates. However, the point is that the Bill does not seek to prescribe whether the United Kingdom should remain in or leave the European Union but to give the British people the final decision on that question, on which there are perfectly honourable, long-standing differences of view within all the main political parties in this House.
The right hon. Gentleman overlooked the fact that a massive consultation exercise, which the Government are leading, is already under way on the current balance of competences in the European Union, and it goes far wider than the organisations specified in the Opposition’s proposals. Moreover, the Opposition underplay the fact that in a real referendum campaign there will be the widest of debates involving all the organisations listed in new schedule 2 and many more.
Mr Lidington
The serious work on the reform of the European Union is already under way. I know that my hon. Friend will be delighted by the successful reform of the common fisheries policy, the ban on discarding, the push towards local regional management of fisheries, the cut in the EU budget, and the moves on deregulation that this Government have already achieved, even in coalition.
Mr Thomas
The Minister is just talking about the past. What powers and competences does he think the Prime Minister wants to bring back? The hon. Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) asked a perfectly reasonable question. Will the Minister answer it? What has he got to hide?
Mr Lidington
What I would like to know from the hon. Gentleman and his party is whether they want to give the British people a say in our future in Europe or they are determined to deny them that say.
Given the reality of the debate that will take place, and given that the Electoral Commission would appoint umbrella organisations for yes and no campaigns, this well-intentioned new schedule is unnecessary because there is no need to specify organisations in that way.
The same is true of the amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) about religious holidays and potential clashes with other elections. These matters already have to be considered.
Mike Gapes
The Minister should be aware that I have not yet had a chance to speak to those amendments, so he is referring to them in the absence of my having done so. I hope that I may get that chance on 22 November.
Mr Lidington
The amendments touch on matters that every Government already have to consider in looking at election dates. Successive Governments have taken a pragmatic approach to those matters, and it would be disproportionate to include them in the Bill.
Mr Thomas
Surely the Minister thinks that the British people are entitled to know what plan B would be if a referendum that the Prime Minister calls leads to a British exit. Why not, then, consult the CBI about the Switzerland option or the Norway option? Why will he not concede that possibility and the need for that consultation?
Mr Lidington
It is already open to the CBI and to any other such organisations to express their views fully and vigorously, and that is what they do at all times, in conversations with Ministers, in publications, and in debates and forums. I know that the hon. Gentleman has only just been appointed to this role, but he ought to wake up and see the debate that is actually going on rather than trying to invoke some kind of Aunt Sally.
Mr Sheerman
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. We can wake up to the fact that still we have not heard from the promoter of a private Member’s Bill on a private Member’s day. What is going on in this Chamber?
Chris Williamson
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. Earlier in the debate, he said that the stakeholders referred to in new schedule 2 would be able to make their views known during the course of a referendum campaign. Does he not believe that they have an interest in the referendum date? That is what the consultation is about. Will the Minister deal with that point?