European Union (Referendum) Bill

Barry Sheerman Excerpts

Friday 8th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Rosindell]

I will not be giving way.

The vast majority of people in Gibraltar, unlike people in the United Kingdom, choose to use their votes. In fact, the most recent European elections saw a 57% turnout—far higher than the turnout in the south-west region of which Gibraltar is a part. It is therefore right that they be given this opportunity. We know that they want the right to make the decision, along with the people of the United Kingdom.

The national anthem of Gibraltar says:

“Gibraltar, Gibraltar,

The Rock on which I stand,

May you be forever free,

Gibraltar, my own land.”

If the people of Gibraltar are to be free, if they are to choose their own destiny, and if it is to be their own land, they too must be given the right to vote in this referendum and in all elections. I commend the amendment to the House.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

I served on the Committee, and during our proceedings we looked very closely at this matter. I remind the House that at that time the Government were unaware of, or had forgotten, the fact that the people of Gibraltar were a very special case because, as a European election constituency, they are part of the west of England seat and, as such, should have been included from the very start when this Bill was dreamt up.

Of course, we know that this is very much not a normal private Member’s Bill. I have never, in my experience in the House of Commons, seen a private Member’s Bill where Government Members are on a three-line Whip.

[Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con)]

Does the hon. Gentleman recognise that that demonstrates the importance that Government Members attach to giving the British people a say in an EU referendum?

[Mr Sheerman]

No, I am sorry, but I do not. I think the whole question of a referendum is a very important one that this House should look at, but it is a major constitutional issue that should have been introduced with a Green Paper and had a pre-legislative inquiry. It should have been taken seriously because it would totally change the nature of Europe and our role in Europe. It is unseemly and furtive, and not at the level of great parliamentary democracy, to try to use a private Member’s Bill to bring this forward.

Until we discussed this issue in Committee, the Government seemed unaware that Gibraltar had this special status and had a vote in the European elections. Often when we take part in a Bill Committee, we realise that we do not do a lot that changes anything, but in this case we made the Government aware of the special status of Gibraltar, and that is why this is a common-sense new clause.

[Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)]

My hon. Friend rightly says that Ministers and, indeed, the Bill’s promoter, completely forgot about Gibraltarians in this context. He will remember from his time in Committee that they refused to accept our amendment that would have given Gibraltarians the right to vote in any referendum. Does he have any intelligence as to why there has been this U-turn on the part of the Bill’s promoter?

[Mr Sheerman]

I have been in this House long enough to be grateful for small mercies, and we did, after all, get a change. As I said, it is very unusual to do something in a Bill Committee that one can remember as being quite creative.

It was an unusual Committee, Mr Speaker. I was in full flow at one stage, and when I turned to look at the Public Gallery, the Prime Minister was sitting in on the proceedings. This is a very special Bill—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I do not know why the hon. Gentleman is suggesting that there is anything unusual either about his being in full flow or about his expectation that the Prime Minister will be listening to him.

[Mr Sheerman]

I am grateful for that, Mr Speaker.

I will conclude my remarks and hope to be called later in the debate. I am in favour of the new clause, which fits in with the whole tone of the discussion that we had in Committee. The Opposition acted very positively in relation to this Bill in trying to refine it and to be supportive. All of us, as a team, tried to work together. We disagreed, but we disagreed in a rather pleasant way.

[John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD)]

I rise to support new clause 1. The absurd proposal in this group is obviously amendment 43, which seems to suggest that everyone across Europe will vote on this issue, whatever their nationality.

As somebody who supports a referendum on our membership of the EU but would probably vote in favour, I think it very important that UK citizens who live abroad should be entitled to vote. Obviously that is allowed, but people who live in Gibraltar also need to vote. We will eventually need to consider the wider issue of what representation the Crown dependencies have, but that is for another day.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Sheerman]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I have been in the House quite a long time, but I have never known a debate on a private Member’s Bill in which, after two and a half hours, the promoter still has not said a word. Is that right that he never speaks, and that the Minister dominates the conversation?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

That is not a point of order. It is entirely up to Members to indicate when they want to speak. In fact, I have a long list of Members who have indicated that they want to speak in this debate, and it would be good to make some progress.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Bain]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

I fully support the amendment on votes at 16 tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South. It is clear that 16 and 17-year-olds will have the right to vote in the Scottish referendum, and I support that right for all elections. It is intolerable that, as Demos showed in 2010, 16 and 17-year-olds contributed £500 million in taxes over the preceding 10 years but are still disfranchised.

[Mr Sheerman]

Will my hon. Friend give way on that point?

[Mr Bain]

I know that my hon. Friend will have a different view.

[Mr Sheerman]

My hon. Friend will remember that, in Committee, I was embarrassed when my name was accidentally attached to an amendment in favour of votes at 16. I was put in the embarrassing position of having to speak and vote against “my” amendment. Is it not amazing that up to this point we have had no debate on this major constitutional change this morning? In my view, we are going down a dangerous path, yet we have not debated the matter until now.

[Mr Bain]

My hon. Friend, who has been a Member of the House since 1979, raises his objections with his customary vigour. I strongly support the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South.

--- Later in debate ---

[Meg Hillier]

My hon. Friend’s good contribution included an interesting point about intergenerational accountability. It is our generation that is making decisions on behalf of the nation about the future—about climate change, whether to go to war and so forth—and our decisions will substantially affect the next generation. Is it right for that generation to be denied a vote?

[Mr Sheerman]

Is my hon. Friend aware that this country has been castigated for allowing young people—as young as 15 or 16—to join the armed forces? Does she not realise that it is the protection of children and childhood that so many of us value, and that that is why we do not want to bring the age of becoming an adult down to 16?

[Meg Hillier]

Yet 16-year-olds pay tax and can get married, and 17-year-olds can drive. Young people can join the Labour party at 15—[Interruption.] I am advised that they can join the Conservatives at 14, so perhaps we should have a discussion with the leader of our party about that. My own children make decisions and get support when they seek advice, and they are keen to be actively engaged, even when they are under the age of 16. I believe that we take more and more decisions in which young people should be involved.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Sheerman]

It is shrinking childhood.

[Meg Hillier]

I hear what my hon. Friend suggests, but we could equally look at it as aligning adulthood with the age of marriage and, indeed, military service. People can join the military at 16, but they will not be on the front line until they are 18.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Thomas]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. If the Home Secretary were to endorse the idea of 16 and 17-year-olds taking part in any referendum under the Bill, that would send a great message about the potential for them to take part in all our elections in future.

[Mr Sheerman]

My hon. Friend is making a good speech, but he knows that I have a long track record of disagreeing with votes at 16. The most bizarre argument that people make is that we have to introduce the vote at 16, because the Scots are going to have it in the referendum. Since when does Alex Salmond decide this country’s constitutional procedures?

[Mr Thomas]

I would not want to upset my hon. Friend further, but he makes a good point. I will come to the Scottish referendum in a moment.

I have never bought the argument that young people are not interested in politics, even if, sadly, like the rest of the country, they do not hold politicians in high regard at the moment. As my hon. Friend might recognise, there is a palpable disconnect between many young people and the political process. I believe there is consensus throughout the House that we must address the worrying trend of poor voter turnout among 18 to 24-year-olds, and amendment 44 could help with that ambition. I understand that people in that section of our society are among the least likely to vote. One MORI poll showed that only 39% of 18 to 24-year-olds were likely to vote, which is a worrying statistic.

We know that voting habits are formed at a young age, so if someone votes at the first election for which they are eligible, they are more likely to continue voting for the remainder of their life. Would it not be sensible for young people to have their first voting experience—in this case in a possible referendum—collectively while still at school or college? When I visit schools or colleges throughout the parliamentary year—it is particularly interesting to visit sixth forms and colleges at general election time—I see the excitement of some of those potential first-time voters who are carefully weighing up everything being said and deciding in whom to put their trust. Whenever there is an election or referendum, should we not be able to go into schools, sixth forms and colleges and talk to all those young people over the age of 16, and tell them that we value their views?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Bain]

We are trying to clarify what the Government and the promoter of the Bill want the public to have a say on. They have not said what terms they would accept to stay in the EU and they have not explained what the consequences would be if we had to leave the EU following a referendum. That is the information that we need, but it has been denied to the House and the country so far.

[Mr Sheerman]

I am certainly not anti-referendum. However, when a Bill is introduced through the back door by manipulating private Members’ business, it shortcuts all the proper procedures and safeguards. We argued in Committee that those safeguards should be introduced into the Bill.

[Mr Bain]

That is a pertinent and well made point.

--- Later in debate ---

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

I thank the hon. Lady for her point. At the moment, the hon. Gentleman is giving a general introduction to his remarks, but he will undoubtedly come very quickly to the crux of his argument, and I am quite certain that he will then stick precisely to the amendments.

[Mr Sheerman]

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I have a great deal of time for the honesty of the stand that the hon. Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie) takes on the matter, but I object to his attributing to me and the Opposition attitudes that are not true. We are not against a referendum—

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. The hon. Gentleman knows that that is not a point of order. If he wishes to engage in debate with the hon. Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie), I am sure he can seek to intervene in due course.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hain]

What we need is for the Government to consult the CBI properly, not just stick a copy of its report into the Library. We need a report to Parliament, as amendment 68 suggests. It is a serious report by a serious organisation—

[Mr Sheerman]

Who would we consult about peace? We are coming up to Remembrance Sunday. In 1914, bad newspaper leaders and bad politicians led this country into war. The European Union has maintained prosperity and peace for all these years—are we going to give that up?

[Mr Hain]

I will come to that point when I discuss whether we should consult groups such as the Royal British Legion.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Lidington]

It is already open to the CBI and to any other such organisations to express their views fully and vigorously, and that is what they do at all times, in conversations with Ministers, in publications, and in debates and forums. I know that the hon. Gentleman has only just been appointed to this role, but he ought to wake up and see the debate that is actually going on rather than trying to invoke some kind of Aunt Sally.

[Mr Sheerman]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. We can wake up to the fact that still we have not heard from the promoter of a private Member’s Bill on a private Member’s day. What is going on in this Chamber?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

The hon. Gentleman must resume his seat.