Great British Energy Bill (Second sitting)

Wera Hobhouse Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 8th October 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Torcuil Crichton (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (Lab)]

Q Welcome, gentlemen. In relation to clause 3(2)(a) and

“the production, distribution, storage and supply of clean energy”,

you have welcomed state intervention and the role of GB Energy in that. How would you feel about communities taking a direct stake in your onshore and offshore developments—say, 20%, as they do in Denmark?

Tristan Zipfel: On our side—I am sure SSE does the same—we are definitely looking at that. We are trying to develop some schemes that go exactly along those lines. We have not done it so far. The link and the reward to communities have been through the community benefits fund linked to our projects. I live in Teesside: we have an offshore wind farm there, and I can tell you that the community benefit fund, over the last 10 years of operation, has helped dozens of local projects and initiatives. You are absolutely right to think the next frontier is to have more local ownership of wind farms. That could be through GB Energy, but it could also be through direct ownership schemes. We are looking at those options at the moment.

Alistair McGirr: As I mentioned at the start, we partner with a number of different organisations; I mentioned Equinor, which is a state-owned entity. We are open to working with any kind of party on a commercial basis, be it a community or another developer. In that sense, the communities taking a stake in some of the projects is something that could be done. The question is: what are the terms of that arrangement? There is the critical point that any community ownership should be focused on co-investment. It should not just be the case that 20% of a project is passed on to a community, because that will be value that is basically taken out of the project, which then inflates the cost of the project. So the co-investment piece is very important. Whether it involves another developer, another state-owned entity, GB Energy or a community, I think that is a useful way of bringing capital into the UK’s low-carbon infrastructure.

[Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD)]

Q Thank you for answering our questions. In the morning sitting we struggled with the fact that although we all hope the Bill will do something, it has relatively little detail. We have already discussed the merits of not having too much detail, because then GB Energy would be hampered, and of having more detail. We have to try to find a balance in what we agree to in legislation. When you look at clause 4, are you content with the scope of the financial assistance provisions?

Alistair McGirr: Yes, frankly. I think there will be other protections in place—what was in old money called state aid protections but is now subsidy control. There will be wider provisions that ensure that GB Energy does not have adverse impacts on investment into the competitor space, be they state aid provisions or subsidy control provisions. That will ensure that what GB Energy is effectively legislated to be able to do does not adversely impact a competitive playing field. It is important to make sure that that is maintained. Ultimately, if there is a tilting of the playing field towards GB Energy, that will be a bad deal for either the taxpayer or the consumer.

Tristan Zipfel: I concur with what was said. It is really important that the establishment of GB Energy does not disrupt the dozens of billions of pounds that are going to be directed by the private sector into the renewables sector, or the clean energy sector in general, over the next decades. For that it is important to maintain trust in the fact that it is indeed going to be a level playing field and that GB Energy is not going to benefit from forms of assistance that would disrupt competition. That being said, I think GB Energy will have its own criteria, strategy and approach, which is absolutely fine. But it needs to be in the context of a level playing field from a competitive standpoint. That is really important.

[Catherine Fookes (Monmouthshire) (Lab)]

Q I welcome both witnesses to the Committee. Clause 5(5) states that the Secretary of State will consult Welsh, Scottish and Northern Ireland Ministers, so as a Welsh MP I am content—it sounds like you are, too—that our devolved Administrations will be consulted before things happen. I think it was Mr McGirr who said there were bound to be lots of projects in Scotland. I want to flag the fact that Wales is also extremely well placed to receive some of these projects in terms of hydro, tidal and wind energy. What in the Bill would help us to ensure that lots of the investment comes to Wales?

Alistair McGirr: I am very supportive of those projects coming to Wales. Obviously the Celtic sea auctions are another example of the upcoming opportunities in Wales. The reality is that GB Energy is not going to be the vehicle that drives that—that will be the wider policy framework in terms of what happens here in Westminster, and also in the regulatory frameworks that are in place and what happens in the devolved Administrations. My reference to Scotland is not to say that other parts of the country could not have the opportunities for investment. It is just that the sheer scale of the opportunities in Scotland for wind, hydro, some of the grid projects, CCS and hydrogen mean there is a significant opportunity in Scotland. That is one of the reasons why GB Energy has been located up in that area.

Tristan Zipfel: I can only concur. Wales is very important for us. We have onshore wind projects that we are actively promoting in Wales. I think GB Energy could play a role there. I want to emphasise, however, that I do not think GB Energy on its own will be the solution to unlocking the opportunities you describe. I think it is really important in Wales in particular that there is an effort on the policy side to provide more certainty and more visibility of the projects, as well as the question of the grid, which is a problem. But I concur that Wales is very important strategically from our standpoint as a renewable energy developer.

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[Josh MacAlister (Whitehaven and Workington) (Lab)]

Q It is good to hear you say that the Bill has the full range of mechanisms within it to mobilise capital. There has been a recurring theme today that the Bill should provide flexibility for future eventualities as the energy system changes dynamically. Do you have any reflections on the past 10 years, and looking ahead to the next 10 years, as to how the mechanisms that get chosen by the executive at GB Energy might have changed had it been in existence 10 years ago? Looking ahead as well, how might the mechanisms that it chooses change over time?

Josh Buckland: It is a fair and good question. I think your substantive point is absolutely right; the mechanisms set out under clause 4 give Great British Energy the opportunity to take different approaches as technology shifts and changes. We have definitely seen, over the past decade, a shift towards different mechanisms deployed by Government. At the early stage, they were largely bilateral, non-competitive and largely done on a kind of long-term contract basis. It is very instructive to look at what the UK Infrastructure Bank is now doing; it is now looking at different mechanisms—earlier stage investment, development capital at risk, and equity investments. Those are the sorts of things that Governments have not traditionally done at the scale that is necessarily required for the energy transition but that obviously Great British Energy could play a role in extending.

There is an interesting question around where you draw the line between Great British Energy and the role of other existing institutions. The Government have already talked about the fact that they are going to evolve the UK Infrastructure Bank to be the national wealth fund, and obviously that will have some crossover with the operations and focus areas of Great British Energy. For me—this may be an issue that is separate from the Bill—how the Government set out how the governance will work between the Department, the Government, Great British Energy, the national wealth fund and other institutions will be critical to making that a success over time, as the executive of Great British Energy looks at new issues and technologies as they come through.

I would stress—I imagine that this point may be made by other witnesses—that the fact that clause 3 is relatively broad, in terms of the sectors and areas that the entity can invest in, is really beneficial, because that also allows some level of independence for the executive to take choices as the energy sector evolves. Clearly, we know the many technologies that we have now, but there will be a range of different issues that come through. I therefore think that that flexibility under clause 3 is quite important.

[Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD)]

Q Following on from what you were saying about uncertainties, and how we have the Bill but then there are all sorts of other questions, it is about creating certainties for us as legislators, to some extent, as well as for investors. Clause 5 says that

“the Secretary of State must prepare a statement of strategic priorities”.

Do you think that it would be important to have a timescale for that, so that we know when the Secretary of State is preparing the strategic priorities, and so that it happens quite quickly? That is something that we can do: put a possible time limit or timeframe into this Bill.

Josh Buckland: That is a very good question; I look back to my time as a civil servant. Sometimes timelines can be very useful because they give clarity, externally, as to when priorities will be updated and when there will be new interventions from Government, but sometimes they do not necessarily reflect the external environment as things change. If there were to be a decision to include an additional requirement around the timeframe, I think you would still want the ability to respond to external events as the world changes, to ensure that the priorities set out to the institution could adapt as the external world changes. Obviously, that is very true in the energy transition.

Clause 5(8) states that Great British Energy must have the ability

“to publish and act in accordance with”

that statement. The thing for me—again, it may not be an issue for the Bill itself, but it will be interesting to watch—will be how bound Great British Energy is to the specifics of the Secretary of State’s statement and what latitude it has beyond that, because clearly it will want to take its own commercial decisions. Fundamental to its independence and ability to crowd in private finance will be that it is taking commercial decisions with strong justification. That is an area that may not need any greater clarity in the Bill, but it will be one thing that private investors will look at quite closely.

[Uma Kumaran]

Q Thank you, Josh. Prior to becoming an MP, I worked globally to advance climate action, so I know that there is best practice to learn from countries around the world. As a global corporation, have you seen comparable frameworks in other countries to support the transition?

Josh Buckland: Completely. There are plenty of precedents in various sizes and scales. Critically, they are not necessarily all in the concept of a developer company, which obviously has got most of the attention as a result of the Great British Energy Bill. There are those examples, and there are significant European energy developers and national energy companies right across the world, and quite often they partner with other entities, whether they are private investors or developers. It is welcome that in the broader statement the Government have been clear that, especially at an early stage, they want Great British Energy to partner with other developers. We should not forget that we have a lot of leading companies in this country, both headquartered here and inward investors.

The other interesting area is the role that the state can play more generally. I might be wrong, but I think that is alluded to in clause 4, which mentions that the financial assistance may be applied “pursuant to a contract”. That is an interesting dynamic. In Denmark, for example, the state in its new leasing process for offshore wind will take a 20% stake in projects as it offers out contracts to the private sector. That is an interesting model that could potentially be applied here and has been applied in other European jurisdictions.

I am not entirely sure about the Government’s intentions on whether that would be a matter for GB Energy or for broader policy, but clearly it creates different opportunities. We should not necessarily think about Great British Energy just as an investor of capital, to go back to the question asked earlier; this is a significant amount of money but, given the scale of investment required, it will be deploying other capital through it that is the key test of success.

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[Perran Moon]

Q On clause 3, you mentioned the supply chain. I totally agree with you about the value of the UK supply chain. You referred to the North sea a lot in relation to that, which I completely understand given your membership, but what about the other areas of the UK? I am particularly thinking of Wales and Cornwall where there is a huge renewable energy opportunity but where, perhaps, the supply chains have not yet been as well established as they are in the North sea. Could you comment on how we can fix that problem through GB Energy?

David Whitehouse: I think it will and should be one of the priorities of GB Energy that our drive for clean energy must be done in a way where we create those supply chains. How do we do that? We already have—we can provide it to the Committee—a good assessment of the quality of the UK supply chain and what its capabilities are. We have a good understanding of what those future renewable opportunities are, and you are absolutely right that there are supply chain opportunities across the country, in essentially every constituency. We have that knowledge.

Now we need GB Energy to recognise what those opportunities are. There are projects to be invested in that GB Energy should be part of, and it should be directing and working with industry and the supply chain to make sure that we take the opportunities to grow our supply chain. We have a lot of significant companies that we should grow. It is a fantastic export but also delivers in our own country. Myrtle will have touched on it: we have a whole host of acorns around this country that could be grown into massive oaks. It will probably use less flowery language, but that should be one of the principles of GB Energy. We have supply chain acorns that we can identify, and we must turn them into the oaks that this country needs.

[Wera Hobhouse]

Q We have been round the houses several times today. We need to see whether we can add anything to the Bill, whether something is missing from it or whether a lot of this will become clearer once the Secretary of State prepares a statement of strategic priorities or we understand the governance structures—all that. You are identifying all the stuff to do with future development of technologies that we do not even know about.

There was a question this morning about whether the Bill should specify that GB Energy should look at the gap in financial markets when it comes to support for new technology companies that otherwise would not make it through the valleys of death. As I understand it, there are not enough financial products out there, from private equity, ordinary banks or other investment opportunities. Can we put anything in the Bill to make addressing that particular gap more of a priority?

David Whitehouse: I am sorry; I wish I could give you a better answer. I have spoken with our members. In some way, shape or form, we think the Bill as it stands is broad and provides the opportunity for the Secretary of State and others to bring forward the statement of principles. That is where we would see some of that.

The Government will also bring forward an industrial strategy, and linked to that will be our energy policy. I think there is such a good opportunity within those—we will have representation from industry, which understands some of the issues, and there will be representatives from our investors across the sector. From our members’ feedback, I think that is where they would see that input: in those broader ways.

[Wera Hobhouse]

Not in this Bill?

David Whitehouse: Not in this Bill—sorry.

[Catherine Fookes]

Q Mr Whitehouse, you mentioned inclusivity; I think you were referring to including the different devolved Governments in the UK. But when it comes to skills and inclusivity, I am interested in the important work of getting more women and a greater diversity of people into this sector. I was really pleased to see Ms Dawes and Ms Powis give evidence earlier. I purposely did not ask them—the two women in the room—how to get more women into the sector, but how can we get greater inclusivity and diversity into the sector through the strategic plan for Great British Energy? This relates to clause 5(8)(a), so it is in scope.

David Whitehouse: Let me talk about inclusivity in general terms. I am studying for a master’s in renewables; I am the energy transition, albeit slightly older. When we talk about inclusivity, those who come from an oil and gas heritage are sometimes excluded from the conversation. You need all those voices. When I talk about inclusivity, it is about “bring all the voices”.

How do we improve what we are doing? I have a couple of brief comments. Speaking personally, I thought the legislation on the gender pay gap was excellent. What does it do? It makes conversations and debates happen. Last week in the sector, we spoke about Vision 2030—how we are going to deliver on a sector that is truly inclusive, that looks like the future, not the past, and that is attracting the next generation, with commitments about targets that we wish to achieve.

There are seven pillars on the path to getting there. How do we do that? You need commitment from leaders in the sector; I think we can give you that. You need some targets; I think we can give you them. We also need a plan of action that holds us to account. I come back to the path to net zero: we will not do this if we are not inclusive and not attracting across the entire spectrum, the entire country.

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[The Chair]

Thank you. That is a matter of record, and I gently advise any other Members who have a similar interest to declare it.

[Wera Hobhouse]

Q It is good to hear from you again, Andy—we had a discussion a few weeks ago. At the beginning of your remarks today you said, as others have said, that GB Energy should not just be an investment vehicle; it should be so much more. We have to deal with this Bill and see whether it will meet the ambitions of your members for GB Energy to be more than just an investment vehicle. Is there anywhere in the Bill where you think, “Hmm—there’s a gap where this could be emphasised to make sure that GB Energy doesn’t become just an investment vehicle?”

Andy Prendergast: From a lot of the conversations we have had, talking about a one-stop shop, assistance in planning and further regulatory support, I think that is something that will evolve over time and will be matched by the funding. An investment vehicle is badly needed on its own because it is something we do not have, which makes us almost unique among advanced economies. Looking at the Bill itself, there are parts that could be fleshed out. We would like to see more about skills, as I just mentioned, and there are some parts that we need to look at, but that is an evolutionary process as opposed to something we definitely need in the Bill now.

[Stephen Flynn]

Q Thank you, Andy: you have spoken very clearly. If I have picked you up correctly, you expressed a modicum of concern about the quantum that runs alongside the Bill to support its potential strategic investments. Could you perhaps elaborate on that more? Secondly, regarding clause 3(2)(c) on energy efficiency, is GMB of the view that GB Energy will bring down energy bills?

Andy Prendergast: If I may take the second part first, one key thing the public want is to see lower energy bills. We know that. A potential issue with GB Energy being so popular is that, to a degree, not everyone knew what it was. Some people think it will lead to an immediate reduction in energy bills. We are likely to see that over a longer period of time, but GB Energy needs to make the investments in new technologies that we have failed to make and that we have too often missed the boat on. If you compare us to Denmark, for example, 14% of its exports are in green technology. That is because it has Ørsted, which is very similar to what we are trying to do with GB Energy, but ultimately it has had a long run into this and has stolen a march. What GB Energy belatedly allows us to do is potentially to steal a march on some of the new technologies that have not been exploited, with a view to supporting those supply chains in the important parts.

Could you repeat the first part of your question, please?

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[Olivia Blake]

Well, we have not heard enough about God’s own county here today.

There has been a lot of positivity from witnesses; some of them seemed quite excited about the Bill. I want to understand, from your perspective, why it has taken a change of Government to see this sort of Bill come forward, and what your ambition is for it.

Michael Shanks: That is really important. Last week, I visited Ratcliffe-on-Soar power station, the last coal-powered station in the UK, and it was a good example of the just transition in practice. It was the right thing that we phased out coal; the TUC itself confirmed that that was exactly how to deal with workers in such a difficult situation where you are moving people from one industry and transitioning them into something else. It was a properly planned process, which is what we want to see in industry.

You are right: we absolutely want to avoid what happened with coalmining in the 1980s. It goes back to what I was saying earlier: this Government are not agnostic about the future of jobs and manufacturing in our industrial communities right across the country. It is important that we invest in them not only because, frankly, we are in a race against the world for all the parts we need to deliver the future of energy, and we will need to produce some of them in this country, but because good, well-paid, skilled jobs are how we will manage the transition in a fair and prosperous way. It is critical for us.

I think it matches other policies. Yes, GB Energy will be a key part, but the industrial strategy will also be important. The national wealth fund and a whole range of levers will be important. The office for clean energy jobs is all about saying that, as a Government, we are committed to the future of this workforce and to creating tens of thousands of new jobs that do not currently exist.

[Wera Hobhouse]

Q We have heard a lot of evidence from lots of people with lots of hopes, who understood that in the end the Bill could be all things to all people. I understand that it is not great to put too much detail in it, but I worry that it is very general and that we will end up with nobody being quite clear what GB Energy is ultimately for. For example, because the witness representing EDF came from a country with a different culture of ownership, they talked about public ownership. If we are going very wide, is something like GB Energy ultimately a vehicle to create more public ownership? In that context, are we talking about just community energy products, which we obviously understand are under some form of public ownership, or are we talking about a completely different ownership landscape that we will see in future?

Michael Shanks: I think it is a combination of things. I urge you to read the Great British Energy founding statement document alongside the Bill, because it is important. The Bill is about setting up a company, and what we do not want to do is hamstring that company by putting in so much detail that it cannot move into the right places that give good investment opportunities for the taxpayer and deliver good energy projects.

The statement makes it clear that community energy, for example, is a key part of our local power plan. We want to see many more community-owned energy projects, for a combination of reasons. They have real social and economic benefits for communities. For us, there is the belief that communities having a stake in those projects is important: communities having ownership and feeling part of the mission will help us with some of the arguments for the amount of infrastructure that we will have to build in the next few years. Also, in certain areas we want small-scale generation projects to have access to connections that bigger projects cannot have. Frankly, in a lot of cases, building the power generation near the population is where we have issues with spatial energy planning across the country.

There are huge opportunities. We are committed to increasing community ownership. We have also said in the local power plan that it could look like municipal ownership of certain generation projects, or it could look like local authorities or combined authorities. We are quite open about what it looks like, but we want to create a landscape where Great British Energy can invest and also provide some capacity to help organisations to get over the line. We all know that local government is struggling and is on its knees right across the country, after years of underfunding. The capacity to deliver a lot of the projects is not there, so GB Energy can fill that gap.

[The Chair]

I want to get everyone in, but we are playing beat the clock a bit.