Wagner Group: Sanctions Regime

Wayne David Excerpts

Wednesday 25th January 2023 Commons Chamber

[James Cartlidge]

The reason that we do not comment on individual cases is well-established. I expect that it would be exactly the same under any other Government. To be clear, the UK sanctions regulations do not exclude payments for any particular legal services from that permission. Excluding such payments can give rise to issues about access to justice. OFSI does not consider it appropriate for HM Treasury to effectively decide whether a case has sufficient merit to be permitted to proceed by deciding whether to issue a licence permitting legal fees to be paid. Such an approach would raise considerable legal concerns.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

The Minister has been asked on a number of occasions how many exceptions and waivers there have been over the last two years. The House is united. This is not a party political issue. We just demand that he answer that question. If he cannot do it now, can he provide the House with details in writing?

[James Cartlidge]

I said to the former sanctions Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman Chishti), that I would write to him. I will be happy to share that with other colleagues who have asked what information we are able to publish. I will look into that and write to colleagues who have raised that point.

Alcohol Taxation

Wayne David Excerpts

Thursday 7th July 2022 Commons Chamber

[Richard Thomson (Gordon) (SNP)]

Let me first say what a pleasure it is to speak in the debate, and congratulate the right hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns) on securing it. Let me also declare my membership of the Scotch whisky all-party parliamentary group, and say how pleased I am to see that, after a day of turmoil, the Minister is still in her place. I am going to have to get to grips with two other Ministers whom I shadow, so it is nice to see some continuity in at least one area of my responsibilities on the APPG.

Alcohol duty has been ripe for review for a considerable time, on the grounds of complexity and economic impacts, but also on the grounds of the social and health impacts that it may have in influencing behaviour. I think—indeed, I know—that this could have been done at any time. Contrasting levels of duty are applied across the European Union, and the UK was towards the higher end of that, but many other countries had considerably lower rates, so it is certainly not a Brexit benefit that the UK Government are now able to turn their attention to this matter.

The former Chancellor clearly had an agenda to simplify the duty regime. It is perhaps understandable that the current Chancellor has not had a chance to share his thoughts with us. Of course, he may not even be Chancellor past the autumn; it will depend on how the cards fall. In any event, I think that this is the right moment for us to have this debate and reopen some of these issues.

Ideally, to my mind, what any Government ought to be looking for is a regime that supports domestic innovation—product innovation and technological innovation, of which there is a great deal in the alcohol-producing sector—along with investment and production, while also keeping the social and health impacts of alcohol consumption in mind. On that measure, in terms of the review of the parameters that have been set out so far, I have always taken a dim view of the apparent bias against stronger alcohols such as whisky, vodka and gin, and I will go on to explain why.

As I have said, I am a member of the all-party parliamentary group on Scotch whisky, and in my constituency in the north-east of Scotland there are three significant distilleries. The Glendronach distillery is near the village of Forgue, and the Ardmore distillery is near the railway at Kennethmont. The third is Glen Garioch and, unusually for a Scottish distillery, it sits not in the middle of an iconic natural landscape but slap bang in the middle of the town of Oldmeldrum. If you drive through Oldmeldrum, you drive through the different buildings of the distillery, depending on the route you take, and it really is quite remarkable. If you are in the north-east of Scotland, I would encourage you to visit it. Give me a shout and I’ll come along with you—it would be great to be able to show off such a distillery.

As well as producing excellent products, those distilleries are right at the heart of our visitor economy. Together with the rest of the whisky sector, they make an enormous contribution to Treasury revenues and to the UK balance of payments. It is not just the whisky that is important; many distillery sites in Scotland also produce the spirits needed to make vodka or gin. In Aberdeenshire there is a burgeoning sector of craft gin manufacturers and those who produce the botanicals to go along with that. There is real innovation there, and while I would not wish to overstate this, it seems iniquitous that we are taxing that domestic product at such a high rate and as a consequence perhaps influencing consumer behaviour to prefer other forms of drink that are not produced domestically.

Those levels of duty are disproportionate, and that is harmful on a number of levels. For one thing—I know from my discussions with the industry how significant this is—it becomes very hard when trying to strike trade deals, which the Government are obviously trying their best to do at the moment, to encourage other jurisdictions to bring down the sometimes punitive rates of duty that they apply to these products. There is also the inhibition that that, as well as some tariffs, puts on the bourbon sector. People might think that bourbon is a competitor product, but in many ways it is a complementary product due to the nature of the ownership of the distilling industry. Quite often the multinational companies trying to sell bourbon in these markets are also investing heavily in new production and new practices in the Scotch whisky industry, so it is all interlinked. The high level of taxation that we put on that product on the shelf is not very helpful.

Finally, let me say something about minimum unit pricing. This policy was introduced in Scotland, and I think it is fair to say that it was quite controversial at the time. It was attacked for a number of reasons, some good and some not so good. We have now experienced the policy in action for some time, and I can happily report that there have not been the predicted traffic jams at the border on the A1 at Berwick or on the M74 at Carlisle due to people doing booze runs. That did not happen. The most valid criticism of that policy approach was not so much about the increase in price as about the fact that the benefit of the increase did not go to the Government to invest in health measures but instead rested with the retailer. That was a fair criticism. I think it is fair to say that if any Scottish Government had had control over the range of duties applied to various drinks, they might have had a minimum price in mind, but they would have used duty as a mechanism rather than imposing that on the retailers.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

Minimum unit pricing has also been introduced in Wales, and the feedback there has also been very positive.

[Richard Thomson]

I thank the hon. Member for that intervention. It has indeed been introduced in Wales, and the evidence is that it has been a very positive thing in both jurisdictions.

We also need to look at promotions. Minimum pricing and other associated policies ended the practice of supermarkets using cheap, below-cost-price alcohol as a loss leader to draw people through the doors. Today’s evaluation of minimum unit pricing in Scotland—I am sure there will be similar evaluations in Wales—shows that, in the 12 months following its introduction before the pandemic, there was a 2% reduction in off-trade alcohol sales and, more significantly, a 10% decline in alcohol-specific deaths in 2019. With more alcohol being drunk at home and with the changes in behaviour we saw throughout the pandemic, it is still reasonable to conclude that minimum unit pricing is contributing to a lower level of harm and adverse health, crime and social outcomes than might otherwise be the case.

All of this has been part of an initial suite of measures to try to change the relationship we sadly have with alcohol in Scotland. We can have an incredibly positive relationship with alcohol, but we cannot be blind to the impacts it can have. I am pleased that the Scottish Government are reviewing the effectiveness of the current system of alcohol brief interventions where people have exhibited problem behaviours, and are reviewing how the product is marketed and presented to consumers, as part of delivering those improved public health outcomes. I believe a review of where we are on duties is a ripe opportunity to do that, and I would be failing in my duty as an SNP spokesperson if I did not say that this would all be better if it were devolved.

HMRC Impact Analysis: Customs

Wayne David Excerpts

Tuesday 8th October 2019 Commons Chamber

[Jesse Norman]

I am unable to match the right hon. Lady’s capacity for bombastic intervention, but let me just tell her that if she looks at the statutory instruments that have been placed in front of this House, she will see that their purpose is not to regulate, but to create mitigations to protect people in the event of a no-deal Brexit. If we have a no-deal Brexit, these will be useful mitigations and supports for businesses and people. If she doubts that, she can avoid the issue altogether by supporting the Government on the deal that I have no doubt is being promoted vigorously.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

The extra administrative costs for filling in customs forms alone for businesses will be £15 billion per year. This contrasts markedly with the Prime Minister’s claim that if we left the EU with no deal, we would save £1 billion per month. Does the Minister agree with me that there is a growing chasm between the rhetoric of a Prime Minister and the reality of a no-deal Brexit?

[Jesse Norman]

No, I do not accept that at all. I think that it is perfectly clear that the Government remain very fixed on securing a deal. That is what these negotiations and discussions are about. At the same time, it is important to prepare for the possibility of no deal—no responsible negotiator would fail to have a walk-away position—and this quantifies those. As I have indicated, there are mitigations and dynamic effects that may well reduce their actual effect. In that context, this is wise planning and provisioning—plans that I hope we will never have to invoke.

Article 50: Parliamentary Approval

Wayne David Excerpts

Monday 11th July 2016 Commons Chamber

[John Penrose]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right—the focus now must be on how we get this done in the best and most constructive way possible for our nation. There will be opportunities and great new horizons as a result of the decision. We need to make sure we are clear about them and that we are set up in the right way to grab those opportunities as they present themselves.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

As things stand, Britain will have two years to withdraw from the European Union once it invokes article 50, but most analysts say that it will take much longer than two years for Britain successfully to extricate itself and have a new relationship. Have the Government therefore considered approaching member states about a possible extension to that period?

[John Penrose]

As I understand it, I think that any alteration to the article 50 process requires unanimity from other EU member states, which represents a pretty high bar for any Government. I am sure that that factor will be considered by the incoming Prime Minister and her negotiating team. I am also sure that they will want to consider many other options to maximise our negotiating leverage. As I have said, the hon. Gentleman and I will have to wait until the new Prime Minister is ready to announce precisely how she and her team wish to approach these issues.

UK Economy

Wayne David Excerpts

Wednesday 29th June 2016 Commons Chamber

[John McDonnell]

We must not talk down some of the success that has been achieved so far, but, although it has dealt with regional economic problems, it has not been on a sufficient scale to rebalance the economy in the way that was promised. As a result, a disillusioned section of the electorate were willing to blame anyone, including migrants and including the EU, and accordingly voted to leave. People felt that communities had been left behind, and I believe that that is a consequence of the lack of investment in recent years.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that it would be a huge boost to the British economy if the £16 billion initiative for the expansion of Heathrow went ahead, and will he support my call for a free vote on the issue before the recess?

[John McDonnell]

I have to give my hon. Friend his due; he chances his arm. I am sure that there is a need for investment—selective investment—in aviation.

Iraq Inquiry Report

Wayne David Excerpts

Thursday 14th April 2016 Commons Chamber

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

Let me say at the outset that we certainly welcome this debate, and our thanks should be recorded to those Members from different political parties who put their names to the motion. We have had a good debate. This is a serious issue that exercises the minds of not only Members of this House, but many people across the country. The concerns of so many people in our country have today been well expressed, articulately and in different ways.

As has been said, it was Labour that set up the inquiry in July 2009, when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister. I have heard what Members have said about how such an inquiry should be conducted, but as was made clear at the time, it was genuinely thought that the inquiry should begin only once all British combat troops had left Iraq. I remain convinced that that was the right course of action to take at the time.

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that his right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition took a rather different view, and voted in favour of our motion, but the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen), who was in the Chamber earlier, took the Government line, even though he has been a critic of the decision since then?

[Wayne David]

I willingly acknowledge that this issue is open to discussion and judgment, but at the time that was our judgment, and I think that it was probably the correct one. The important thing, I would stress, is that the Labour party did not at the time expect that the report, thorough as it was going to be from the start, would take seven years to complete. That is completely unacceptable and very difficult to justify or, indeed, understand. The Labour party wants the report to be published in full as soon as is practicable. At the same time, we must acknowledge that if the report is to have integrity, it needs to be recognised as independent. It would be wrong, therefore, for the Government or individual politicians to try to influence the contents of what I hope and am sure will be an objective report and assessment.

The fact that the report is taking so long is cause for concern, however. The latest delay, we are told, is caused by the need for security checking. We understand that there needs to be security checking. Sir John Chilcot explained clearly in his letter to the Prime Minister, dated 28 October, why that should be:

“National security checking is distinct from the process of declassifying material for disclosure in the inquiry’s report. Its purpose is to ensure that the government’s obligations under article two of the ECHR and for the protection of national security will not be inadvertently breached by publication of the inquiry’s report as a whole.”

That makes a great deal of sense, and I do not think that many people would object to that. It is noteworthy that the Prime Minister said the following in his letter to Sir John dated 29 October, which he willingly consented to publish:

“In relation to National Security checking, the Government will aim to complete the process as quickly as possible. As you know, National Security checking for the Savile Inquiry took two weeks to complete. It would certainly be our plan and expectation to take no longer than this, and we will look to complete the process more quickly.”

It is worth bearing in mind what the Prime Minister said, and was more than happy to make public. I am concerned that we are where we are today. I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say in response to the debate, and to my specific question: what is the date for publication?

I conclude by reiterating what several Members have said: it is important to have the report published soon, for two essential reasons. The first is so that we can, collectively, learn the lessons of Iraq. Lessons have to be learned about what happened in the run-up to the war, during the war and, crucially, once the war concluded. I remember going to Washington and having a meeting in the Pentagon before the war commenced, and I pointedly asked a five-star general what the United States’ plan for reconstruction and rehabilitation after the war was. He said, “That is not our concern. Our job is to kick ass and get out.” That was crudely put, but unfortunately that was the attitude that informed the actions of the American-led coalition. In my discussions with military personnel in this country, the attitude was quite different, but, to be blunt, Britain was a very junior partner. That kind of mentality and mindset among the Americans made what has happened since almost inevitable. Lessons have to be learned from the situation that unfolded.

The second reason is that we need openness and closure for the families of all the British soldiers who so gallantly gave their lives for the country. We have a debt to them, and it is important that a clear message goes out from the House that we want the report to see the light of day, and to be published, examined and debated as soon as is practicable.

Scotch Whisky Industry

Wayne David Excerpts

Wednesday 9th March 2016 Westminster Hall

[Brendan O'Hara]

I absolutely join my hon. Friend in welcoming that, and that statistic is replicated across the country. Islay, for example, which has a population of just 3,000, has eight working distilleries with two more currently under construction. In 2014, Islay had 125,000 visitors to its distilleries—that is 41 visitors for every permanent resident on the island. The importance of tourism, and whisky tourism, cannot be overstated, and if hon. Members have not holidayed in Argyll and Bute, I suggest that they put it on their bucket list immediately.

I used to think the sky was the limit for our Scotch whisky industry, but it appears that I was wrong. It seems that there are absolutely no limits on what our industry can achieve, as I recently discovered, when I was told that a quantity of Ardbeg was sent into outer space to the international space station—for research purposes, I believe. Who would have believed that Argyll and Bute would be exporting liquid sunshine into outer space? Indeed, if that is not an argument for awarding the UK space station to Machrihanish, I do not know what is.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

My intervention is not specifically on that point. Sadly, I say as a Welshman that there is no whisky industry in my constituency, but there is one not very far away, and it produces wonderful Welsh whisky—one day perhaps there will be competition. My point, however, is that not only is Scotch whisky tremendously important to Members’ constituencies and Scotland as a whole, but to the United Kingdom. Given that the Scotch whisky industry is worth some £3.3 billion directly and £1.7 billion indirectly to the UK economy, does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is important not only locally in Scotland, but to Wales and the United Kingdom?

Football Governance (Supporters’ Participation) Bill

Wayne David Excerpts

Friday 4th March 2016 Commons Chamber

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

Many of us would agree that football clubs are unlike any other businesses. The backbone of any football club is its supporters—or fans, if you like—many of whom have an emotional attachment that lasts a lifetime. Too often, however, this attachment is exploited by clubs. Ticket prices are pushed up and owners attempt to change fundamental parts of clubs for marketing reasons, with no respect for the history or heritage of the club and its association with the local community.

Despite new owners coming in with large sums of money, it is the fans who have sustained clubs generation after generation through thick and thin. It is the fans who will be there for a long time after the owners have gone. Sadly, it is too often the case that fans are ignored on fundamental issues that directly affect them and their club. A whole host of problems are faced by clubs on a regular basis. As has been mentioned, Blackpool supporters have recently expressed serious concerns about the running of their club and have attempted to take it over. Liverpool supporters have walked out over their club upping ticket prices. Soon, the Football Supporters Federation will hold a demonstration to call on clubs to share the TV wealth by lowering ticket prices and providing funds for lower leagues and the grassroots. At Cardiff City, the club I support, the owner changed the club’s strip from blue to red against the clearly expressed will of the supporters—for generations the club has been known as the Bluebirds. I do not believe we can go on like this. It is totally unacceptable. Clubs are becoming more and more disconnected from the communities in which they are based.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

Order. I hesitate to interrupt the hon. Gentleman because he has been speaking for only a short time, but if he and the rest of the House would like to hear what the Minister has to say on the Bill, he will have to leave some time for that.

[Wayne David]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I will take your advice.

The Prime Minister has added his support to calls for change. I believe other moves are afoot—discussions have taken place and must be taken forward—but that is not a reason why the Bill should not be supported. The Bill’s proposals are modest. They have been consulted on and are very coherent. I believe a clear message needs to go out from this House. I very much hope the Government will support the proposals, so that football supporters can have a real sense of participation and involvement, which is absolutely central for the future of British football.

DRAFT NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FOR WALES (REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE) (AMENDMENT) ORDER 2016 DRAFT NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FOR WALES (REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE) (AMENDMENT) (NO. 2) ORDER 2016 DRAFT POLICE AND CRIME COMMISSIONER ELECTIONS (AMENDMENT) ORDER 2016

Wayne David Excerpts

Tuesday 1st March 2016 General Committees

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to be here on St David’s day. Even though we are considering matters Welsh by accident rather than design, it is nevertheless great to be here and it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Howarth. As the Minister said, many of the changes have been discussed and debated in a different form. Many of the proposals apply to the National Assembly for Wales and bring legislation into line with the Electoral Registration and Administration Act 2013.

I want to focus, in particular, on police and crime commissioner elections. As we all know, the first PCC elections, which were held in November 2012, had a lamentable turnout: 15% over England and Wales and a mere 14.9% in Wales. Many of us can refer to incidents where no one turned up at polling stations. I can think of at least one where only one ballot was cast, and that was a postal ballot. All of us who believe in democracy want to see a bigger turnout and greater public engagement, so it is important to learn lessons.

One clear lesson is that it was a mistake to hold those first elections in the middle of winter; these elections, of course, will be on 5 May. There is also an important lesson to learn on publicity. Information was provided by post and websites were established to give information to all electors about the system and the role of PCCs, but no collective support was provided by the Government to allow candidates to disseminate their message; it was essentially up to them to take on that responsibility.

It is true to say that in Wales we had a bit of a shambles with regard to the bilingual forms, which were provided but only late in the day. The Opposition said at the time that a special order was required to allow for bilingual PCC election ballot papers and the Government did not accept that initially. They did accept that eventually but, because that was late in the day, locally ballot papers were provided, according to the law, in English-only in Wales.

When the Government eventually brought forward a statutory instrument, bilingual forms were created. However, that meant that the forms produced initially had to be destroyed, and the total cost was £130,000. We might say that that is not a massive amount, but nevertheless that was £130,000 wasted. Had the Government only listened to the advice provided by Her Majesty’s Opposition, that money would have been saved. I am pleased that that lesson has been learnt and that the hands of the Home Office, who I think were the guilty culprits, are no longer to be seen and that the Cabinet Office has dealt with it in what is hopefully a more efficient, effective and sensible way.

These elections, which will be held at a better time of year when people will be more likely to come out of their homes to vote, will coincide with the local elections in England and with the Welsh Assembly elections. That they will be held at the same time as the Assembly elections is to be welcomed, but there are risks and potential difficulties nevertheless. The Electoral Commission, in an appendix to a report entitled “Combination with the Welsh General Election in May 2016”, identified three potential “significant risks”. First, it said:

“There will be two different electoral systems in use, incorporating three methods of voting, and three ballot papers.”

That is perfectly correct. The additional member system is used for Welsh Assembly elections, so constituency and regional list Members are elected, providing a proportional representation top-up. The PCC elections, of course, will use a supplementary vote system, as they did last time. That is a form of PR, but it is a different form. Understandably, there is the potential for a great deal of confusion among electors if they are being asked on the same day, in the same voting booth, using two different forms of proportional representation and on three ballot papers. That puts great responsibility on the Government to ensure that proper information is provided and proper guidance is given to voters so that there is no unnecessary confusion.

The Electoral Commission’s second point is:

“The voting areas for the two sets of elections are different. In Wales, the PCC elections are based on 22 local authority areas within four police areas whereas the Assembly general election is based on 40 Assembly constituencies within five electoral regions.”

That is complicated in itself, although I know that the Government recognise that, so hopefully they have introduced measures to minimise confusion and have more streamlining in place.

The Electoral Commission’s third point is:

“Police area returning officers are appointed by the UK Government while Assembly Regional Returning Officers are appointed by Welsh Government Ministers. Consequently, different individuals may be appointed to cover the coterminous electoral areas of North Wales and Dyfed Powys/Mid and West Wales. In South Wales and Gwent police areas and the three South Wales Assembly regions, there will be two PAROs but three Regional Returning Officers”.

That is immensely complicated, so I would welcome further explanation from the Minister on how those complications are to be tackled so that we have smooth elections and smooth counts afterwards.

Those risks must be effectively surmounted and tackled. The Minister noted that I tutted earlier on because one of the orders is to correct an error in the use of the Welsh language. The explanatory memorandum says:

“Errors in the Amendment Order were identified by deputy counsel to the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments prior to formal consideration by the Committee. The department was invited to withdraw and re-lay the draft but decided against doing that, and instead has corrected the errors in a combination of correction slip and this instrument.”

That seems a rather strange way of correcting drafting mistakes. As is stated later in the explanatory notes, the mistakes appear

“in the Welsh language sections of the forms that are included in the Amendment Order.”

With regard to the procedure, I wanted to ask a Minister whether that is the right way to correct mistakes. Would it not be better to have an entirely new document so that we can be clear about what is being corrected and the mistakes that were made?

Although election administration is not really yet a devolved matter, would it not have made sense in this time of devolution to have liaised properly with the Welsh Government, who have more expertise and knowledge of the Welsh language than the central Government, to ensure that such mistakes were not made in the first place? It always makes sense to have co-ordination and co-operation. Devolution, as the Government often say, is based on mutual respect, as it should be, and the Welsh Assembly is the custodian of the Welsh language, so would it not make sense to have a much stronger dialogue with the Assembly and the Welsh Government to ensure that such mistakes do not happen?

My other question is fairly detailed, so if the Minister wants to respond in writing, I am happy to accept that. It relates to the boundary between the South Wales police area and the Gwent police area. Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney, which is both a parliamentary constituency and a Welsh Assembly constituency, straddles two local authority areas—Merthyr Tydfil County Borough Council and Caerphilly County Borough Council—and the two police areas. What exactly is proposed to streamline that particular situation does not seem clear. There is a duality of contradictory boundaries. Will the Minister provide some explanation regarding the boundaries in that case, which seems to be anomalous in many ways and requires particular attention?

Following those few remarks, I can indicate that the Opposition will of course support the sensible, constructive and necessary amendments in the draft orders. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response.

[John Penrose]

I will happily respond to the hon. Gentleman’s points, taking each of them in turn. First, however, I want to welcome the general support with which he finished his remarks. It is welcome to hear that the proposals have cross-party support. I was hoping—indeed, he has confirmed it—that this would be an uncontroversial piece of important electoral plumbing and that there would be no need to find party political differences in it.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned that turnout at the first police and crime commissioner elections was relatively low. He and I are both hoping for a dramatically higher turnout this time. I agree with him that the omens are propitious and positive, partly because, as he says, the elections will be held in May, which is usually reckoned to be a better time of year, but also because other elections are taking place on the same day. Given the overlap with other elections, there may be occasional concerns about complexity, but there is no doubt that it can also help to drive up turnout. I hope that democrats on all sides of different political divides will want to see a better turnout than last time at polling stations in early May. I obviously cannot comment on whether the Cabinet Office will do a better job of electoral administration than the Home Office, as the hon. Gentleman kindly suggested, so we shall have to wait and see. With any luck it will be a step in the right direction.

The hon. Gentleman then talked about some risks—as opposed to serious issues—that were flagged up by the Electoral Commission, particularly in relation to the three different forms of voting being used on the same day. There are two varying forms of alternative or proportional voting and one more traditional first-past-the-post system. He is absolutely right that there is always the potential for confusion, but when we have combined polls in all parts of the UK, in practice we tend to see that voters are pretty canny and capable of coping. Providing that the electoral administration is done in such a way as to have separate ballot papers for each election—most commonly the ballot papers are of different colours—that allows voters to draw a mental distinction between the one, two or three different polls on the same day and to politically and intellectually change gear, as it were, as they fill out one and then move on to the next.

The only time we have had serious concerns about that sort of thing was in Scotland back in 2007, when there was an attempt to combine some ballot papers. That created some concerns but, broadly speaking, electors seem to be capable of coping pretty well. One would obviously not want to push the point too far, but we are not expecting the different elections to be a major problem on this occasion.

The hon. Gentleman also mentioned voting errors. I did mention in my speech the point about electoral administration, but it bears repeating. The instrument provides that where PCC and Assembly elections are combined in the voting areas, the polls for the PCC election will be administered on the ground using the same voting area—that is, the Assembly constituencies—and by a single returning officer. That is a crucial point. The returning officer for a voting area will be the local returning officer for the PCC poll, who is the returning officer for the Assembly constituency. I hope that means that the administration is a great deal clearer and that lines of accountability and responsibility are very clear indeed. The arrangement directly matches the recommendations of both the Electoral Commission and the electoral administrators in Wales. I hope that has maximised our chances of success and clarity on that point.

The hon. Gentleman also mentioned concerns about Welsh language forms. As I said, there was a great deal of concern last time when problems were discovered with the accuracy of the translation of Welsh language forms. I can confirm that two things have happened since then. First, additional checks are now in place to ensure that such a thing is much less likely to happen—it was not terribly likely in the first place, but it is even less likely now. Secondly, as I think the hon. Gentleman mentioned, electoral administration is one of the matters that will be devolved when the Wales Bill has passed through Parliament and become the Wales Act, so this might be the very last time we have to debate the issue in this place; in future it will be dealt with by the Welsh Government in Cardiff.

[Wayne David]

I very much hope that such matters can be dealt with by the Assembly in Cardiff, but over the past few days things have moved on, with the Secretary of State indicating that his own draft Bill is not fit for purpose and going back to the drawing board. It might be quite a while before we have such a Bill before us.

[John Penrose]

I hesitate to put words in his mouth—I am sort of paraphrasing—but I think that the Secretary of State said that the Bill would none the less be reintroduced in the second Session of this Parliament, so the hon. Gentleman will not have to wait too long. If he can possess his soul in patience, I hope that he, and everybody else who is in favour of devolution—I hope that is everybody—will be reassured and will look forward to the result.

The hon. Gentleman asked a rather technical question about the running of the poll in the Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney constituency. I have been searching for inspiration and will now assay an answer for him—we will see how it goes. He is absolutely right to say that the constituency is the only one to cross a police area boundary. The PCC order amends the definition of voting area for PCC elections where they are combined with Assembly elections so that both sets of elections can be administered on the basis of the same voting area—that is, Welsh Assembly constituencies, as I was just reminding the Committee—by a single returning officer. That will facilitate the running of the polls.

The Electoral Commission also issues guidance to returning officers to help them in their planning for the poll and to carry out their duties. I am sure that the commission will be able to give specific help to the administrators running the poll in that constituency, but the hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that it will perhaps require some special focus and some special guidelines or guidance to ensure that it is done cleanly and effectively.

I hope that I have covered all the questions and provided everybody with answers. With that, I commend all three orders to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

DRAFT NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FOR WALES (REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE) (AMENDMENT) (NO. 2) ORDER 2016

Resolved,

That the Committee has considered the draft National Assembly for Wales (Representation of the People) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2016.—(John Penrose.)

DRAFT POLICE AND CRIME COMMISSIONER ELECTIONS (AMENDMENT) ORDER 2016

Resolved,

That the Committee has considered the draft Police and Crime Commissioner Elections (Amendment) Order 2016.—(John Penrose.)

Draft European Union Referendum (Conduct) Regulations 2016

Wayne David Excerpts

Thursday 11th February 2016 General Committees

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your benign chairmanship, Mr McCabe. As the Minister indicated, the draft regulations are not particularly contentious, but they are nevertheless important for ensuring that the referendum, when it comes, is conducted efficiently and fairly. They are essentially, as he said, plumbing matters. Other regulations will deal with more contentious and important issues, such as the date of the referendum, how long the referendum period will last, referendum-related expenditure, and the process by which the Electoral Commission will designate the lead organisations for both campaigns. We hold our breath on that matter, because it will be interesting to see which organisation is given responsibility for conducting the no campaign. That is not a political point; I am saying this objectively.

The Opposition support the regulations. They are well worked through and there has been a great deal of consultation, but I do have a few questions for the Minister. I am glad to see the inclusion of the innovations, modest though they are, introduced by the ERA Act. Lessons have been learned from the conduct of the alternative vote referendum in 2011.

Police community support officers can now attend polling stations, and there is a great deal of sense behind that, because it will relieve pressure on the police, but of course PCSOs have limited powers. If there was a serious fracas or potential infringement of electoral law at a polling station, it would be embarrassing to say the least if a PCSO was not able to deal with the situation because his or her powers were limited. The situation would then have to continue while the PCSO called in the assistance of a properly designated police officer. I understand the practical benefits of having PCSOs as well as police officers, but I envisage a possible difficulty arising, too. Will the Minister comment on that?

I am pleased that the Government have largely taken the Electoral Commission’s suggestions into account but, according to the Government’s own explanatory memorandum, the suggestion on the extension of emergency proxy votes has not been accepted. The memorandum states:

“In order to maintain the integrity of the electoral process, the Government considers that the emergency proxy provision should not be drawn too widely and therefore has not included the provision recommended by the Electoral Commission in the instrument.”

Will the Minister expand on that a little? I understand that proxy votes are being extended for people who are engaged in business activities or on military service. Why did he decide not to accept the Electoral Commission’s advice to have a further extension of the proxy provisions?

My next question is about who is entitled to vote. The Minister specifically said that there are provisions in the regulations to allow citizens of Gibraltar to cast their votes, but if people in Gibraltar can vote, why not people in the Falkland Islands, too, and why not people who consider themselves to be British in the 11 other overseas territories? The case can be made that the vote should be extended to all people who consider themselves to be British, because of course the Falkland Islands and the other overseas territories have some kind of relationship with the European Union as well as with Britain.

[Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)]

Although the hon. Gentleman makes a moderately compelling case that other overseas territories should be considered in such a way, surely he recognises that Gibraltar is a unique case. Gibraltar is on the European mainland, so the question is whether it should be counted as part and parcel of Spain or part of the United Kingdom. As he is well aware, it obviously counts as part of the United Kingdom for European elections, so there is some sense in maintaining that slightly analogous situation specifically for Gibraltar while not extending it elsewhere.

[Wayne David]

I am not arguing against the case for Gibraltar, which I recognise has a unique relationship with Britain and the rest of the European Union. I am simply posing the question of whether there is an argument for extending votes in this referendum to people in the 12 overseas territories that belong to the United Kingdom. Those territories are referred to in annex IV of the treaty establishing the European Economic Community, so a legal relationship has been defined, albeit it is not the same kind of relationship as that of Gibraltar and the United Kingdom.

Let us not forget that there are 1,650 registered voters in the Falklands. They were registered for the 2013 referendum in which they almost unanimously—barring three voters—decided that they wanted to remain part of the United Kingdom, to all intents and purposes. I am sure that the people of Falkland Islands would consider that—morally at least, if not in terms of the technical specifics—they should be able to cast their votes. I am sure that they would point out that, in an equivalent French process, people in an overseas department, such as La Réunion or Guadeloupe, would be able to cast a vote, because those people were able to do so in the 2005 French referendum on the so-called constitutional treaty. Those overseas departments are, to all intents and purposes, very similar to our overseas territories. I will be intrigued to hear the Minister’s response to those points because there is a case for treating everyone in the same way.

My final question is about the count and declaration, although I might be straying a little beyond the regulations. It was announced in December that the final declaration of the result would take place in Manchester, but why there? Why not London, Cardiff or wherever? I understand that there will be collation centres for the 12 regions, but have the Government made a decision about the venues for those centres? The natural place for the venue in Wales would be Cardiff, but it would be nice to know precisely which cities have been chosen, if that has been stipulated, and whether arrangements are in hand to ensure that there will be a smooth count. I also understand that there will be 382 counting officers who will operate locally and feed information to the regional centres before a national announcement is made. I know that regional declarations will be made—I am sure that many will watch with interest what happens in Wales and Scotland—but will the local results be announced to the public?

What will happen at a local count if an individual who is accredited to be there calls for a recount? Regulation 47(1) states:

“A person within paragraph (2) who is present at the completion of the counting (or any re-count) of the votes in a voting area may require the counting officer to have the votes for that area re-counted…but the counting officer may refuse to do so if in the officer’s opinion the requirement is unreasonable.”

To ask the obvious question, what is the meaning of “unreasonable”? Surely there should be criteria to determine whether a vote is very close so that an officer is not in the invidious position of having to make a subjective decision about whether a recount is required. Will the Minister clarify the situation and explain why the imprecise word “unreasonable” has been used?

Labour Members will support the regulations, but I will be interested to hear the Minister’s response to my comments.

[Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr McCabe. I am grateful to the Minister for his comments about the regulations.

I would not suggest that hon. Members should do anything other than approve the regulations, although it would create an interesting precedent if we had a referendum without any rules on its conduct. However, I wish to raise a few points, and I hope that the Minister will respond to them today or assure me that they will be taken into account as we get closer to the date of the referendum.

The hon. Member for Caerphilly asked why the declaration would take place in Manchester, but it has to happen somewhere. If it was in London, a lot of us, including many people in Wales, I suspect, would be asking, “Why always London?” The real reason for the decision is that when we see the size of the bill for repairing this place, we will all want to move to Manchester, because it will be the only place where we can afford to build a Parliament, and I suspect that a lot of people in the north of England would support that.

The hon. Gentleman also asked a question about the reasonableness, or otherwise, of a request for a recount, but it is impossible to predict every scenario for a referendum in which every vote in every ballot box is equally likely to be the decisive one that swings the entire result. In a parliamentary election, the returning officer and everyone else can see how close a result will be, and sometimes at an early stage in the process, so if someone who has clearly lost by 8,000 or 10,000 votes asks for a recount, that is unreasonable. However, although it might appear that there is a large majority on one side after the first few areas have declared, there is always the possibility of that position changing as more results come in. An area that declares with a majority of 10,000 might have a miscounted or misclassified bundle of 100 votes, but those 100 votes could be decisive in the event of a close overall result. In such circumstances, we must leave things to the professionalism of the counting officers and expect the chief counting officer to be prepared to say, “Do you know what? This is now so close that we need to look at every contested declaration, just to make sure.” We all agree that we cannot afford to have a result that people think is unfair or somehow fiddled, whether due to error or another aspect of the process.

Let me ask the Minister about various aspects of the regulations. On timetabling, I fully understand why bank holidays are not counted as working days when calculating the period of notice, but I ask the Minister to respect the fact that while we have things in Scotland called “bank holidays”, which are sometimes the same as those in England and sometimes not, no one in Scotland, apart from the banks, pays a blind bit of attention to them. Many places have traditions of local public holidays during which schools, and often public services and businesses, close. The dates of such holidays vary from place to place, are often based on long-standing traditions and are jealously guarded by local people. It would be unreasonable to ask that the Government try to avoid a clash with any local public holiday in Scotland, but I ask them to be aware of those holidays. It might be better for them to avoid the process affecting any time of the year when such public holidays tend to congregate, which is May and June, so perhaps the Minister will heed what I am saying about that.

Regulation 58, which deals with the public inspection of papers, has a link with the Data Protection Act and the question of who is allowed to see marked registers. I know personally of examples of when the availability of such registers to agents or political parties allowed a party to satisfy itself and its supporters that there had not been large-scale personation. On one occasion of an unexpectedly high turnout in an election, it transpired that the marked register for that election showed a significant number of people as having voted, despite the fact that previous registers showed that they had not voted for 10 or 15 years. As an agent was allowed to get the new information—he already had the historical information—he could make his own inquiries, and it turned out that those people had, for whatever reason, decided to vote. It could therefore be demonstrated that what appeared to be a highly suspicious pattern of voting was completely legitimate. Importantly, that allowed the candidate who lost the election to say to his supporters, who were claiming foul, to say, “We lost fair and square—live with it.” Such a statement by a candidate has a lot more power than one from the authorities. I therefore ask the Government to bear in mind that it is sometimes vital for the integrity of the entire process that such information is made as available as possible within the confines of data protection legislation.

As this is not clear from regulation 45(1), will the Minister confirm that the expectation is that, when possible, the count will begin at the close of poll so that results will start to be declared as quickly as possible? I know that there are some places where, because of their remoteness, the count is traditionally done the following day, but if the intention is that the count be carried out overnight on the Thursday, it will be useful for everyone to know that as soon as possible.

Anyone with experience of either working in a polling station or attending a count will have been greatly impressed by the dedication and professionalism of everyone who works in those places. Just look at the hours that the count staff have to put in before and after the count. They are a huge group of people to whom democracy itself owes a great deal of gratitude. The Minister should be aware that it might be more difficult to recruit that army of people to spend all Thursday night carrying out an important part of the democratic process if they are expecting to take the kids who have finished school on their summer holiday on the Friday afternoon—the Minister will understand what I am saying. In my experience, a significant number of those who work at polling stations and at counts have children, and in some parts of these islands towards the end of June, a lot of families with children will be about to go on their summer holidays, so I ask the Minister to bear that in mind.

Although I can understand why we want to go through a process in which the regional draft declarations have to be agreed by the chief counting officer before being announced, that needs to be done in a way that does not lead to the pile-up of results that we have seen in other referendums. At the time of the devolution referendum in Scotland, there was a requirement for each local authority to get authorisation from the chief returning offer before announcing the result. Inevitably, two or three councils declared very quickly, and then about 15 were all ready to go within an hour. I was at the count in Fife—the third biggest count in Scotland.

[Wayne David]

I remember the devolution referendum in Wales, when the result was on a knife edge, with a mere 6,000 votes in it. It was suggested that the final information, which came through from Carmarthen, was held back deliberately to increase the drama and suspense before the final declaration. It really was on a knife edge: many people thought that there had been a small no vote, but because of Carmarthen, the result was a small yes vote. I was wondering whether this time there is a possibility—I do not say it is good or bad—of a similar control of results coming from different parts of the country, as happened in Wales in 1997.

[Peter Grant]

The hon. Gentleman makes a valid point. I remember watching the results coming in from Wales and seeing the face of the Labour leader in Wales when the decisive result came in. I have to say, he did not look delighted, but I am sure that things have moved on since then.

At the Fife count, we waited between an hour and an hour and a half after everybody knew the result there. At that time, Scotland’s vote on the first question—about having a Scottish Parliament—was 75% yes, so everybody knew the result on the straight yes/no decision, but the returning officer had to keep the staff there for more than an hour after they knew they had done their job and there was nothing more for them to do. That was not fair to them or to the returning officer.

The hon. Gentleman talked about the suggestion that results had deliberately been held back. In another, more recent, referendum, in which the vote did not quite go the way that I intended, I would have been quite happy if the result from Fife had been lost and no one had bothered to add it to final tally. However, we waited in the count hall for between an hour and an hour and a half, with nothing visibly happening, and that started a rumour that Gordon Brown was going to be paraded as the man who saved the Union. We were assured that that rumour was completed unfounded and that the sudden appearance of an intense police presence was pure coincidence.

I ask the Minister to ensure that a clear instruction is issued that no declaration is to be delayed unnecessarily, for any reason whatsoever, so that there can be no suggestion that any particular place has been chosen to make the decisive announcement—the one that guarantees victory for one side or the other. I understand why the chief counting officer will want to have oversight of the whole process, but we cannot allow that to delay the public’s knowing the result of an important referendum.

Having stood outside local polling stations in every election since 1987 and been at every count as well, it is interesting to be part of the process of making the rules that those hard-working returning officers and their staff will have to work by. Despite the primary legislation’s limitations, the regulations should give us a referendum after which the public will be as certain as they can be that, whether they like the result or not, it will have been the choice of the people.