Oral Answers to Questions

Wayne David Excerpts

Thursday 9th March 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Walker]

Of course, we have formally involved the devolved Administrations in our preparations through the JMC process, and we continue to engage in that process. With regard to the great repeal Bill, a White Paper will be published and the devolved Administrations will have their opportunities to respond to that, as will hon. Members across the House.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

When the Government devolve powers that have been repatriated, will they consider allocating extra resources to ensure that those policies are implemented properly?

[Mr Walker]

As we have said, we have not made the final decisions about repatriation. That is something we will want to discuss with the devolved Administrations, as I think the Welsh Government have suggested. The Treasury has already made important guarantees that cover devolved Administrations as well as Government Departments.

European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill

Wayne David Excerpts

Committee: 2nd sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 7th February 2017 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

This gets me back to the heart of my argument, which is that if one believes that the only authoritative evidence, the only view that matters, is that produced by the Government, one is turning one’s back on 400 years of Enlightenment thinking. There is not one single canonical view that is right in every respect. As was made clear earlier, there is a proliferation of views about what the impact of leaving the EU might be in different areas.

Further, if we were to have published the Government’s policy advice in every area, which is the inference behind the hon. Gentleman’s question, it would make the business of Government impossible. He might remember, as I certainly do, reading the words of the former Prime Minister, Tony Blair, in his autobiography, “A Journey”, in which he said that the Freedom of Information Act was his biggest mistake—I think there were some bigger. [Laughter.] That is one view that commands a consensus around the House. He thought he had handed a weapon to his enemies and made impossible the business of Government, which requires confidential advice to be prepared by civil servants and accepted by Ministers.

When I was a Minister, I received excellent advice—my mistakes were all my own, all the good ideas were civil servants’. Nevertheless, however good the civil service advice that a Minister receives, it is only one source of wisdom, and every Minister worth his or her salt will want to consult widely. Any Minister who sought to steer only by civil service advice would rightly be held by the House to be a timid mouse constrained by their brief, incapable of ranging more widely and of making a judgment in the national interest.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

On finance, does the right hon. Gentleman agree with the Secretary of State for Brexit, who is prepared to consider our paying the EU for access to the single market?

[Michael Gove]

To be fair to both the hon. Gentleman and my right hon. Friend, I think that that is a mischaracterisation of what he said. [Interruption.] It is. It is a mischaracterisation that was sedulously reported in some sections of the media. I make no criticism of the hon. Gentleman, but my interpretation was different, and in a way the fact that two such fair-minded—I hope—figures as he and I can, from the plain words in Hansard, reach two different conclusions rather proves my point, which is that we can ask for evidence but we cannot have a single definitive view. The argument, as made in the new clauses, that we cannot proceed until we have that so-called single, definitive, canonical view represents a profound misunderstanding.

European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill

Wayne David Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting: House of Commons
Monday 6th February 2017 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Edwards]

I agree exactly with the hon. Gentleman, but I would go further. My great fear is that Brexit will be used by the UK Government and by the Conservative party to derail and undermine devolution in its entirety.

In a similar manner to new clause 162, amendment 90 seeks clarity on laws repatriated from the EU.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

I hear what the hon. Gentleman is saying, but does he agree that what we need more than anything else at this moment is mutual respect of the devolution settlements and that we should do our best to achieve consensus wherever possible?

[Jonathan Edwards]

I fully agree with the hon. Gentleman. The amendments tabled by the SNP, Plaid Cymru and Labour endeavour to achieve that, and it is a source of great regret tonight that they have been taken so badly by Government Members.

I do not usually make a habit of quoting the leader of the Conservatives in Wales, but in this instance he has made another fitting statement, and I will hold his party to account on it. He said in an LBC interview last month:

“No, this won’t be the last Wales Bill…. Brexit will require devolution changes to realign those responsibilities.”

There we have it. A devolution settlement meant to last a generation, and which received Royal Assent only last week, is already redundant.

I finish by reiterating that on 23 June nobody voted to lose their job or to become poorer. My colleagues and I will be doing everything possible to avoid that and to ensure that the interests of the people of Wales are protected.

Exiting the EU: New Partnership

Wayne David Excerpts

Thursday 2nd February 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Davis]

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for International Trade has already been in touch with the most important countries to us—South Korea and others like it—and they all seem very keen both to maintain grandfather rights and to improve on the deals and make them much more tailored and specific to both our interests.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

The White Paper says that the great repeal Bill

“will preserve EU law where it stands at the moment before we leave the EU.”

The White Paper goes on to say that it foresees two pieces of primary legislation, but that:

“There will also be a programme of secondary legislation under the Great Repeal Bill to address deficiencies in the preserved law”.

What deficiencies does the Secretary of State have in mind?

[Mr Davis]

As the great repeal Bill will pass through European law—the acquis communautaire—in its original wording, it might refer to European institutions when it should refer to British institutions. For example, it might say that local government has to publish its procurement contracts in the Official Journal of the European Union, which would no longer be appropriate—it would be more appropriate to publish them on the Government website. Secondary legislation will be principally aimed at such technical concerns. Major areas of policy change will primarily be addressed in primary legislation, which is why we cited those two examples.

European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill

Wayne David Excerpts

Tuesday 31st January 2017 Commons Chamber

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

I campaigned hard for Britain to remain a part of the European Union. For 10 years I was a Member of the European Parliament and I learned at first hand the worth of European co-operation to the United Kingdom. For some 12 months I was the Labour party’s Front-Bench spokesman on the European Union. It is therefore true to say that I am a passionate European, but I respect and accept the result of the referendum, because we live in a democracy. Labour Members supported the referendum legislation. From a constitutional point of view, it could be argued that a referendum result is not binding, but morally it is binding on us. During the campaign, all parties clearly accepted that the result was the result and that certain actions would follow, so we are morally bound by that.

For me, the question is now not whether or not we leave the European Union, but the form of our departure and the nature of our future relationship with the EU. Article 50 is only the start of the process and, in some ways, it is far from the most important part. I wish to discuss two issues of extreme importance, which will become more important as time goes on. The first relates to my belief that it is almost inevitable that there will have to be a transitional agreement between the UK and the EU; few people seriously believe that the negotiations will be completed within two years. The nature of that agreement needs to be fully discussed. Whether Britain is part of the European economic area or there is some other arrangement, we will have to discuss the pros and cons of that agreement.

Secondly, it is important for us to focus on the so-called great repeal Bill, which will be coming to this House. In effect, it will be an act of entrenchment, taking the European acquis communautaire and putting it into British law. It is important that we make sure that in our devolved country those powers are not kept in Westminster where it is not appropriate to do so, but devolved out to Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. We must watch that carefully.

[Albert Owen]

My hon. Friend is right about that, which was why I made the point that the continuation of consultation with the devolved Governments is essential and should be put on a statutory basis.

[Wayne David]

Indeed it is important, and ideally it should be on a statutory basis, but in any case negotiation and co-operation have to take place. It is also important that we focus on ensuring that all European law that is supposed to be in that great repeal Bill is actually there. In that regard, we are particularly concerned about employment rights and environmental protection. We need to make the point that this is an ongoing process; once that piece of legislation is in place, that is not the end of the story. It will still be up to this Parliament, if it so wishes—I hope it does not—to unpick that legislation and erode this country’s hard-won rights on employment protection and environmental protection in the EU.

What cannot be underestimated is that the next few years will be incredibly difficult and complicated. Nobody can seriously suggest that from now on it will be plain sailing—that is not the real world. Therefore, it is imperative that for every step of this journey there is parliamentary scrutiny and parliamentary accountability. Like other Members, I am extremely concerned that the Government have not got off to a good start. They have been dragged screaming to this Chamber, protesting that they do not want to be accountable and developing spurious arguments about having a free hand in negotiation. Who on earth can, having listened to this debate, doubt that it has been good and worthwhile for democracy? This must be only the start, not the end, of that parliamentary discussion that we need to have in our democracy.

In conclusion, we are facing difficult times ahead and it is important for our country to pull together. Nobody can doubt, irrespective of which side they were on during the referendum, that it was a difficult, acrimonious and, in some cases, bitter campaign. It is incumbent on all of us, from all political sides, to make sure that as far as possible we can create a new consensus in this country about how it can go forward together and develop a new relationship with the EU. I believe there is a will to do that among Labour Members, and I very much hope that, despite the rhetoric being employed by the Prime Minister, there is the will for that to happen among Government Members, too.

It is crucial that we do not kid ourselves that, in the modern world, Britain can somehow exist in splendid isolation. The nature of our global community means that we need co-operation, partnership and engagement with other countries. Yes, let us work around the world as well, but let us not forget that we need a new relationship with the European Union. It would be in nobody’s best interests if we were to pretend that our future was somehow distinct and separate from that of the rest of the European continent.

--- Later in debate ---

[Wayne David]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Suella Fernandes]

No, I won’t. The British people voted —[Interruption.]

[Wayne David]

I thank the hon. Lady for eventually giving way. Would she ascribe any part of the defeat of the remain campaign to the incompetency of her former Prime Minister?

[Suella Fernandes]

That is very childish and immature. I salute the former Prime Minister for having the courage to put the vote to the British people and respect the outcome with honour. The hon. Gentleman should, too.

In voting to leave, the British people were asserting their self-confidence and their fearlessness. They wanted Britain to forge a different path, one of a global-minded, pluralist, competitive and liberal Britain. That is why it is important that this House and the other place ensure that that happens. The procedure for withdrawal, set out in article 50, is the right to way to proceed for two reasons. First, it provides a time limit. The two-year deadline prevents the talks being strung out indefinitely, and provides clarity and reassurance. Secondly, article 50 enshrines the ratification of withdrawal through qualified majority voting, rather than by unanimity. This ensures a greater chance of ratification for the terms of our departure.

Members proposing to vote against the Bill should be mindful of the fact that the House has already voted on and agreed to the Government’s timetable for triggering article 50 by 31 March by a significant margin of 372. We must respect the decision not just of this House but of the British people. Opposition Members who in their intransigence wish to defy the previous vote seek only to prolong and frustrate this process in an illogical and irresponsible way.

More than simply triggering article 50 and leaving the EU in the technical sense of resuming our sovereignty, we should use the Brexit process to address the concerns that pushed people into voting leave in the first place. We need to stand up for the needs of those on lower incomes by reducing the cost of living, we need more democratisation and decentralisation and we need to embrace the unprecedented opportunity of free trade. As Richard Cobden, the 19th century MP said:

“Free Trade is God’s diplomacy and there is no other certain way of uniting people in the bonds of peace.”

He was right. There is no greater barometer of peace than the opening up of an economy.

This is an opportunity that Britain must grasp. We need to think like a global and maritime nation, rather than a continental nation, and as the Prime Minister has stated so clearly, we can only do this by leaving the customs union and the common external tariff and by liberating ourselves from the common commercial policy. We need skilled workers, yes, but we need them from the world outside the EU, not just from within. Crucially, however, we want to determine for ourselves who comes in and in what numbers. We stand on the brink of prosperity, freedom and opportunity as we vote to trigger article 50. That is the prize for our courage as we write the next chapter of our country’s great future.

Oral Answers to Questions

Wayne David Excerpts

Thursday 1st December 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Davis]

I understand entirely where my hon. Friend is coming from. Indeed, as he well knows, I have a great deal of sympathy with that viewpoint. Of course we intend to respect the decision of the British people and what underpins it. As he rightly says, it would be irresponsible to set out red lines or to make unilateral decisions at this stage, but it must be made clear that we want decisions over how taxpayers’ money is spent to be made in this House.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

This is a general question, so it provides the Minister with plenty of scope to give some sort of response. Will the Government consider making any contribution in any shape or form for access to the single market?

[Mr Davis]

I note that the first half of the hon. Gentleman’s question was probably aimed more at you, Mr Speaker, than at me. The simple answer we have given previously—it is very important, because there is a distinction between picking off an individual policy and setting out a major criterion—is that the major criterion here—[Interruption.] I will answer him if he lets me do so. The major criterion is that we get the best possible access for goods and services to the European market. If that is included in what he is talking about, then of course we would consider it.

Oral Answers to Questions

Wayne David Excerpts

Thursday 20th October 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Davis]

One reason—although only one—why we are seeking to maintain the most open and barrier-free access possible to the European market is to encourage foreign direct investment. We have had discussions with a number of countries, including the US; indeed I met a US congressional delegation that came here whose members were very enthusiastic about Brexit. There are many views about this.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

4. What discussions he has had with his Cabinet colleagues on EU regional funding as part of his preparations for negotiations on the UK leaving the EU.

[The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Mr David Jones)]

The Chancellor has already announced that the Government will guarantee EU structural and investment funding signed before we leave the EU. In addition, when UK organisations bid directly and competitively for EU funding for projects, that funding will be guaranteed by the Treasury if the bids are won before our departure. Those guarantees will extend to 2020, effectively the end of this Parliament.

[Wayne David]

The Minister has quoted part of what the Chancellor said, but he also said that finance will be guaranteed to bidders

“whose projects meet UK priorities”.

Does that imply that the UK Government will try to change agreed priorities for EU expenditure?

[Mr Jones]

No. Over the coming months the Government will consult all interested parties—including the devolved Administrations, who clearly have an interest in this policy—to ensure that future funding commitments represent value for money and are in line with our strategic priorities.

Parliamentary Scrutiny of Leaving the EU

Wayne David Excerpts

Wednesday 12th October 2016 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Gethins]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on referring to my hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar correctly. The hon. Gentleman is right about 2020, but universities, businesses, regions and local authorities will negotiate and collaborate with one another well beyond that. They are currently not certain of membership of the European Union, the single market and the continued benefits of those programmes. I therefore do not agree with him on that point. That is a significant amount of uncertainty.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Stephen Gethins]

I will not give way yet.

Over the coming little while, much of the debate should be about scrutiny—we should be able to talk about our constituents who are affected—but it should also be about vision and the kind of country we want to see if the rest of the United Kingdom leaves. I was proud, as I am sure every member of my party was, that 62% of people in Scotland voted to remain.

--- Later in debate ---

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

Like many other Members, I am profoundly worried about the lack of clarity from the Government. Even though we all accept that we are talking only about the principles that will govern negotiations in future, this is a momentous decision and really the House needs to understand and debate the principles that lie behind the actions before us.

I wish to make two specific points. First, it seems pretty clear that the negotiations will not have been concluded within the two years stipulated under article 50, and therefore we will have the great repeal Act. The Brexit Minister told me on Monday that

“the great repeal Bill will put the acquis communautaire straight into British law”—[Official Report, 10 October 2016; Vol. 615, c. 66.]

The implications are considerable, because Britain will not have concluded its negotiations and, even though we will have left the European Union, European law will still apply to us. The implications are huge. For example, if we are no longer under the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice, will British courts adjudicate on British courts? How on earth would that work in practice?

My second question is about how long that situation will apply for—how long will European law continue to apply even though we have left the European Union? Is there an open time scale?

I also want to address the effect on Wales. Like other parts of the United Kingdom, Wales has a devolved Administration and we receive significant amounts of European funds: £1.8 billion from structural funds, mainly focused on west Wales and the valleys, covering the funding period 2014 to 2020. The Government have said that they will ensure that the moneys allocated will still be forthcoming until 2020, but my question is about the fact that the Government have also said they intend to change the priorities for spending that money even though there is a partnership agreement between the European Union and the Welsh Government about how the money is to be spent. [Interruption.] The Under-Secretary of State looks quizzical, but the Secretary of State for Wales gave that explicit commitment only the other day.

Given the large sums involved, is it not right and morally justified, as well as being a legal certainty, that the devolved Administrations must have a direct say on the negotiations and final conclusions to be reached? Those sums of money are important to the peripheral parts of the United Kingdom. Also important is the fact that when the negotiations have concluded and significant powers have been repatriated from Brussels, many of those powers will then be devolved to Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland as part of the devolution package. It is only reasonable that the full implications of that change are understood, debated and agreed by the devolved institutions themselves. I would like a commitment from the Government that that will be the case.

I come to my final point. I do not think anybody in the House seriously doubts that a clear decision has been taken by the British people. But we want to be absolutely certain that what follows that decision is not harmful to the best interests of the British people. That is what we are concerned about and why it is so important that Parliament should exercise full scrutiny.

Next Steps in Leaving the European Union

Wayne David Excerpts

Monday 10th October 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Davis]

I cannot see the great repeal Bill interfering with Welsh legislation, but as I have said, we will talk at length to each of the devolved Administrations about issues that will affect them as a result of the Bill. We will do that before we draft it, let alone before we publish it.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

In their open letter to the Government at the weekend, the CBI and other business leaders said that it was extremely unlikely that the complex negotiations on Brexit would be completed within the two-year period stipulated in article 50. If negotiations have not been completed, what will happen then?