Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Seventh sitting)

Tristan Osborne Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 16th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Johnson]

I am not clear about that either, but I am sure the Minister will elucidate what exceptions he sees and when someone or somewhere would be used for selling such products without a licence.

[Tristan Osborne (Chatham and Aylesford) (Lab)]

When it comes to alcohol licensing, exceptions for members’ clubs are, of course, already in statute, so we do have exceptions in other licensing regimes. Does the hon. Lady agree that the online sale of vapes, which constitutes a significant market, might also be an exception with regard to brick and mortar premises? The exceptions covered by the Bill might relate to the type of sale and the area of sale.

[Dr Johnson]

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. It is important, however, that those who are selling online and those who are selling in shops have to have a licence to do so. I hope that the Minister does not intend to exempt online retailers from the need to have a licence to sell such products—he is shaking his head, so I suggest that is not the case, which is good.

One reason for tabling new clause 10 was to highlight the importance of ensuring that online retailers are held to the same standards as those real-world retailers. We have talked previously about ensuring that online apps and online sales cannot be used as a get-around—similar to vending machines, for example. It is important to ensure that the online world is not used to get around the Government’s intention to prevent smoking and the purchase of smoking, vaping and nicotine products by under-age individuals.

To return to clause 19, subsection (5) requires Welsh Ministers to consult with relevant stakeholders before making regulations, which is sensible. Subsection (7) specifies that the regulations are subject to the affirmative resolution procedure, which for Wales means that the proposed regulations must be formally approved by the Senedd before becoming law, increasing democratic accountability and providing an extra layer of scrutiny. Respect for Welsh devolution, as we talked about in the last session, is therefore included within the Bill.

Schedule 3 provides for retail licensing schemes in Wales, making provision regarding the granting of a licence in Wales, including provisions meaning that a licensing authority cannot grant a licence to premises in a particular area, for example, in proximity to a school, and limiting the number of licences within a particular area. We heard previously that specifying that licensed premises should not be near a school could cause difficulties in some rural areas where there may be only one shop in that village and no shops for many miles around it. That is one of the reasons decisions are made locally, because the local individuals providing those licences know the local circumstances, and that would need to be done cautiously. The regulations will also specify the duration of the licence, how it is enforced and the appeals process.

Clause 20 relates to offences in connection with licences in Wales and sets out how offences are committed, along with the penalties that may be put in place. I will not go through that in any more detail.

Clause 21 talks about the financial penalties in Wales. We have talked previously about how it is a matter for the devolved nations to decide how high those penalties should be. Subsection (1) grants the local weights and measures authorities in Wales the powers to impose those financial penalties relating to a breach of conditions attached to a personal or premises licence.

Schedule 4 outlines the procedure for local authorities in Wales, such as trading standards, to impose financial penalties for breaching licence conditions. Again, before imposing a penalty, authorities must issue a notice of intent and allow time for it to be challenged. If a penalty is imposed, a final notice is issued, which can be withdrawn or reduced, and the person can appeal the decision or the penalty amount to the magistrates court. Unpaid penalties can be recovered as if they were payable under an order of the county court and proceeds, after enforcement costs, are returned to the Welsh Consolidated Fund.

Clause 22 is the repeal of register of retailers of tobacco and nicotine products in Wales. It proposes to repeal chapter 2 in part 3 of the Public Health (Wales) Act 2017, which established a regulatory framework for retailers of tobacco and nicotine products through a centralised registration system. Clearly, if this Bill passes, that provision will no longer be required because the clauses in the Bill provide for new provisions. Clause 22 repeals that chapter of the 2017 Act so that it can be replaced, which is sensible.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Eighth sitting)

Tristan Osborne Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 16th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Johnson]

The Minister says that it is similar in Scotland—I would be grateful if he could confirm whether that is related to individual cases or to a wider takeover of a failing Department. The Minister has talked a lot about the proportionality of the offences, fines, and punishments that can be chosen by trading standards, and he says that he trusts trading standards to ensure that that is proportional to the offence on each occasion. The concern is that the clauses would allow the Secretary of State to interfere with that by taking over the proceedings or the decision to enforce in a particular case, which would mean, for example, that if a Secretary of State was concerned that his best friend was running a shop and was about to get into trouble, he could intervene on the basis of this legislation and prevent that person from having proceedings. Likewise, if an Opposition politician was in the same situation, he could intervene to make proceedings much harder and harsher than they would normally have been.

[Tristan Osborne (Chatham and Aylesford) (Lab)]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Fifth sitting)

Tristan Osborne Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 14th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Johnson]

Indeed, it does seem contradictory, if not counterintuitive. It also leaves us with a bizarre situation where, were someone to be a bassoon player, for example, and they wished to buy these products to use for the alternative purpose of drying their keys, then they would have to get someone else to buy them because they would not be able to buy them themselves. For a child born after 1 January 2009 and learning to play such an instrument, either the market will need to provide another opportunity to buy such a product, or the child will need someone else to buy the product for them. That does not make sense. The rolling age of sale that we discussed in clause 1 means that, over time, the number of individuals wanting to buy the product for their instruments but not allowed to, compared to the number of people allowed to, would inevitably diminish. We would have a larger group of people trying to find an ever smaller group of people to buy their cigarette papers for them for that purpose. To some extent, it would be more sensible to remove subsection (3) all together because it creates a loophole that will be used almost entirely for illegal uses of these papers. There is a market already providing a reasonably priced alternative for people to use for their instruments—which in practice are better for instruments in any case.

The final point is on the burden of proof. As a defence, someone purchasing the product on behalf of another has to prove they have no reason to suspect that the person was born on or after 1 January 2009. What does that really mean? Is that a reversal of the burden of proof? Is it saying a person has to prove their innocence rather than the state having to prove them guilty? In what circumstances would it apply? In what circumstances is it necessary for someone to buy cigarette papers, other than the oboe player or the saxophone player? I guess if someone in his or her 70s attends a corner shop but has forgotten their ID, they could ask somebody older to buy the papers for them; I guess that would be okay. They may find that they have come with a veterans card, thinking that they can use it because it is usable for voter ID, but that particular type of ID is not included; we have discussed widening the scope of those documents.

[Tristan Osborne (Chatham and Aylesford) (Lab)]

I understand that the term “cigarette paper” clearly indicates that the primary use for such an item is likely to be tobacco usage. However, it is not exclusive. As a model maker, I use cigarette papers in model making. I understand they are also used in art and in other activities. Although I am not suggesting that there are no alternative products to cigarette papers, it is not 100% exclusive. With respect, I think the clause refers to a person buying cigarette papers for another individual for a purpose other than smoking—if that can be proved. I accept what the hon. Lady is saying, but think she is stretching the point quite a lot.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Johnson]

I am going to disagree with my hon. Friend on that point. There will be licensing for tobacco products, and part of the due diligence of setting up to sell such products includes familiarising oneself with the legislation as it stands and thus with the regulations around signage, buying and putting up the appropriate signs, and providing the appropriate training. The challenge occurs if the Government seek to amend the notice, at which point they would need to ensure that they had given adequate notice and information to the company to ensure that it had the time, resources and information to put up the correct signs.

[Tristan Osborne]

On signs, if we accept the premise that the law is changed—as we have done in clause 1—to include a rolling scale with the date being 1 January 2009, signs will have to be updated in any event to reflect that. The current signs about being 18 would have to be removed. On the definition on the signs—tobacco products versus relevant products—is it not clearer to the public, who are going to be the purchasers of the products, if it is tobacco products? It does not preclude extra signage, which exists in many stores, of what can and cannot be purchased. While I accept the premise of the idea of relevant products versus tobacco products, for the public it would be clearer if it were tobacco products.

[Dr Johnson]

The hon. Gentleman is right, of course, that those selling tobacco products legally now will need to change their signs to have the date of 1 January 2009 on them, as opposed to the age of 18, because that will be the law: that clause has now passed, and I expect that it will continue its passage through the House and the other place, because it has broad support among the public and within Parliament.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixth sitting)

Tristan Osborne Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 14th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Johnson]

Amendment 96 and clause 12 relate to vaping and nicotine product vending machines. I support the clause; indeed, if one looks at proceedings on the previous, Conservative iteration of the Bill from earlier this year, one will see that new clause 4, which was signed by just under 40 Members proposed a ban on vaping product vending machines, and the lead name was mine. I was concerned that vending machines would be used by children to obtain vaping and nicotine products. That loophole in the law that would make it easy—as we have seen with cigarettes in the past—for youngsters to circumvent the age-restricted product legislation designed to protect them, by allowing them to buy things from a machine that was not checking how old they were. I am therefore clearly supportive of this legislation.

Clause 12 makes it an offence for a person who manages or controls a premises to have a vending machine that sells vaping or nicotine products—

“an automatic machine from which”

vaping or nicotine products “may be bought”. Again, I ask the Minister to look at the principle of machines “from which” these products “may be bought” and to reconsider the wording to ensure that the industry cannot sell products using an app or online platform that can then be collected from a dispensing machine, in the same way as someone might buy something off a retailer and collect it from another retailer or a lock box collection point.

Banning the sale of vaping products, nicotine products and cigarette papers from vending machines would, by virtue of the various clauses in the Bill, including clauses 12 and 17, be a UK-wide provision. That would be beneficial because it would have consistency across the UK in a positive direction. The clause introduces a new offence, as there are currently no restrictions on the use of vaping or nicotine product vending machines in the UK, in the way that there is with tobacco vending machines. This is a new offence, and in my view a welcome one.

Self-service vending machines provide an anonymous, unregulated environment where individuals under the legal age could otherwise purchase vaping or nicotine products without any face-to-face interaction with a retailer, clearly increasing the risk of under-age sales. The offence will come into force six months after Royal Assent, which means that premises that currently contain a vape or nicotine product vending machine will have time to remove it or to stock it with a product that can legitimately be sold to younger people.

The primary rationale behind the restriction on vape vending machines is to reduce vaping rates, particularly among minors and children. The Government’s aims, as I understand them, are to protect young people from the harmful effects of vaping by limiting their access to vaping and nicotine products. Vape or nicotine product vending machines, which may also be used for pouches, are seen as a mechanism to bypass the responsibility of retail staff in ensuring that restrictions are met, contributing to increased sales.

The fine is level 4 on the standard scale, which is similar to that for selling over the counter. That makes sense to me, but I want to ask the Minister who qualifies as a person who manages or controls a premises? If it is a tenanted property, does that mean the landlord or the tenant who has control of the premises? If it is a larger retailer, such as a large supermarket, who controls those premises? Who takes the blame there? Is it the person who was on shift as the supervisor? Is it the store manager? On a more general basis, is it the regional manager or the managing director of the company? Who is responsible for managing and controlling those premises? The Minister needs to provide guidance on that so that people understand their responsibilities and so that, in the event a crime is committed and a vending machine is put in place, fingers are not pointed in every direction, making it impossible to work out whose responsibility and fault it was, such that nobody is held to account for the breach.

The Department of Health and Social Care has produced an impact assessment for the Bill, and paragraph 477 says:

“Regulating vape flavours, packaging, and presentation, as well as point of sale displays, and banning vending machines which sell vapes and nicotine products is expected to reduce the number of people taking up vaping, and therefore it is expected that there will be environmental benefits from reduced litter from vaping products.”

The clause will therefore benefit the health of not just our children but the environment in which they live and grow.

Paragraph 781 of the impact assessment highlights the following information about vending machines and under-age sales:

“A survey conducted by ASH”—

which gave evidence to our Committee last week—

“found that 6.6% of 11–17-year-olds who currently vape used machines as a source of vapes.”

Given that vaping vending machines are not currently that common, that seems quite a high figure. Without a ban and the implementation of the clause, that figure will surely increase.

[Tristan Osborne (Chatham and Aylesford) (Lab)]

I appreciate the point that the hon. Lady is making and those that other Members have made. As I understand it, we already have a law that bans people from purchasing vapes from a customer-managed vending machine. The only vending machines that should be selling vapes are managed by someone else. Can I just clarify that that is the case, because I think there is some confusion about how people are getting these vapes at hospitals and particularly in mental health settings? I have a concern about that because it puts vulnerable people, in a sense, with an addictive product. Can I just clarify that vending machines for vapes are currently not allowed in this country, except where they are not individually customer operated?

[Dr Johnson]

I thank the hon. Member for his intervention. I will come to amendment 96 and the mental health aspect shortly, but I will deal with the clause first, which makes sure that these vending machines are not available. At the moment, one can buy nicotine products in a vending machine where those exist. As I said, the ASH survey showed that 6.6% of 11 to 17-year-olds who currently vape have access to vapes through a vending machine, so this is happening in the UK already. The hon. Gentleman will have heard me say earlier that, until this Bill passes, it is not illegal to sell nicotine products to children. Some responsible retailers have a voluntary scheme for not selling to under-18s, but it is not a legal requirement. Some irresponsible sellers do sell vapes to children.

Paragraph 782 of the impact assessment says:

“There is limited evidence presented on the number and locations of vape vending machines, however it is suggested by online retailers that they are currently predominantly placed in locations such as nightclubs, bars and pubs. It is anticipated that”

without this legislation

“the market will develop further and vape vending machines will become more prevalent in other locations such as supermarkets, train/bus stations and other locations accessible to under-18s.”

In my mind’s eye, I remember recently seeing a vape in a vending machine alongside sweets; I just cannot quite remember where it was, but it was certainly somewhere that was easily accessible to people.

The aim of the clause is to protect children and to ensure that vending machines—commonly found dispensing food and drink in child-friendly establishments such as canteens and leisure centres, and easily used by young people—are not available. The machines protect anon—anonymity; I might have to put my teeth in, Sir Mark—

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Third sitting)

Tristan Osborne Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 9th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Johnson]

I think that comes back to the issue of choice. The chief medical officer said that the only choice we make is the choice to have that first hit of nicotine; after that, our choice is taken from us by the profound addiction that we experience. One of the challenges with stopping smoking is that people get powerful cravings. Despite their overwhelming desire to stop, the cravings drive people to have a cigarette that they do not really want or would rather not have because of their addiction.

[Tristan Osborne (Chatham and Aylesford) (Lab)]

May I de-aggregate the two separate, distinct points about the age that will be defined on a driving licence or passport versus the concept of having ID?

On the first point, most identity documents will contain a defined birth date, which makes it easier for a retailer or sales individual to check the date. They do not contain an age, per se, but they have the date of birth, which creates an easier means of assessment.

The second point about having ID is a separate, distinct issue. In some countries in Europe, they put identity cards on the back of credit or debit cards, for instance. The question of how we would define that identity is a separate element or, perhaps, a separate amendment to the clause that may expand the list of identity that would be bona fide, but we nevertheless use the concept of identity already in many cases to purchase products.

If we are against identity cards or any form of identity, how are we supposed to look at any product with regard to sales, including ones that we might be challenged on, such as when the shadow Minister was purchasing her orchid in a venue? We accept the premise of identity when we sell any licensed product at the present time, so we are merely extending the same premise.

[Dr Johnson]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his thoughtful contribution. I should be clear that I do not have an issue with carrying my driver’s licence or ID with me, although I am aware that some people genuinely do. If he wants to intervene again, I would be interested to hear whether that means that he is comfortable with voter ID, because his party, prior to the general election—I appreciate that he would not have voted on it, because he was not—

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Johnson]

It is certainly the case, as I am sure we will come to when we discuss clause 1 itself in more detail, that where tobacco control measures have been brought in—on place, price, display or age group—they have led to a fall in smoking, which is a welcome and intended outcome.

I have been lumbered with a lot of interventions and I did not get to answer one point in full, which was on the issue of adult consistency. Amendment 17 would create two groups of adults—those aged between 18 and 25, who would be unable to smoke or use tobacco products, and those over 25, who would. The previous Government sought to say, “This is when you become an adult—when you turn 18. Before that, you are a child, and we will use child protection and safeguarding measures, so you cannot get married or buy a lottery ticket.” We sought to create consistency across the board, because consistency helps people to understand what the law is, which makes it easier for them to follow it and give a greater level of consent to it.

Let me turn back to the amendments. I cannot speak directly for the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell, who tabled the amendments, but one of the reasons that has been given to me for increasing the age to 25 is that people normally begin smoking when they are young. Most people begin before they are 16, and many more before they are 21. That means that in principle, if we raised the age to 25, we would find that people did not start smoking in any great numbers, because their brain and their thinking process would be more mature, so they would be less likely to start. It is also the case that if someone starts smoking at a younger age, they are more vulnerable to the addictive properties of nicotine, as we heard in the impact assessment and in medical evidence.

[Tristan Osborne]

One of the challenges with introducing an age restriction of 25 is that a 19-year-old can smoke today, but that rule would suddenly take away a right that they previously had. However, the proposal on the table is for a sliding scale, whereby they will never have had the right to smoke. We are not taking away a right that someone might have had previously. Does the hon. Lady accept that there is a slight difference between having an age restriction of 25 and a sliding increase in age?

[Dr Johnson]

The hon. Gentleman is exactly right, in my personal view, to say that. As we heard before, the previous Government wanted to ensure that in bringing forward a Bill, they were not going to criminalise people with an addiction to a product that they could not quit, and therefore leave them in a situation where they could no longer buy the product they needed to feed that addiction. Obviously, we want them to stop, but we do not want to make them stop by making them criminals. So, yes, I would be concerned that sticking in a sudden increase to 25 would mean that any smokers legally accessing tobacco products between the ages of 18 and 25 would find themselves somewhat stuck. That is not something I would wish to see.

Oral Answers to Questions

Tristan Osborne Excerpts

Tuesday 7th January 2025 Commons Chamber

[Wes Streeting]

The £100 million capital investment we set out before Christmas is the biggest boost to hospice funding in a generation, and it comes on top of the £26 million that we announced for the children and young people’s hospice grant. The right hon. Gentleman cannot welcome the investment and keep opposing the means of raising it. Would he cut services or raise other taxes? He has got to answer.

[Tristan Osborne (Chatham and Aylesford) (Lab)]

T5. Pharmacy First is an incredibly popular service that has allowed many residents in Chatham and Aylesford to be referred for illnesses or urgent repeat medicine supplies. Can the Minister indicate whether there warrants a further review and expansion of this offering, to include further access to medicines, including those to treat common dental conditions with bacterial infections, so that patients with these very painful emergency needs can seek immediate over-the-counter appointments?

[Mr Speaker]

Can Members please remember that these are topical questions?

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (First sitting)

Tristan Osborne Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 7th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

Sir Michael, you were nodding. Did you have any comment to make?

Professor Sir Michael McBride: I simply echo Sir Frank’s comments on the flexibility that the Bill affords us, and again confirm my agreement with Sir Chris’s comments. Let us be clear: there is no other product that causes life-limiting addiction, that kills two thirds—kills two thirds—of the people who use it. It is staggering, and this Bill provides us with an opportunity to address a scourge on our society. There is no safe tobacco product —none.

[Tristan Osborne (Chatham and Aylesford) (Lab)]

Q This is a question specifically on vapes. You mentioned earlier that because it is a new product, there is a lack of scientific consensus on the medium to long-term effects. Are we going to see publications around this over the next five to 10 years—maybe sooner? Presumably there have been clinical trials on these products. Can you tell me perhaps the difference between the two? I accept fully the tobacco legislation; my concern is the evidence base for the vapes, and the potential for a cobra effect, where we might see people go back to tobacco-based products because they are cheaper to purchase. The second piece of evidence for this is that in the Regulatory Policy Committee report it says that it expects a 12% reduction in vaping, in a similar trend to tobacco-based products. Is that a reasonable assumption, given that there has been a long-standing public awareness of tobacco, versus perhaps a lack of awareness around the complexities of vaping products?

Professor Sir Chris Whitty: Would Sir Michael like to go first?

Professor Sir Michael McBride: Yes. Thank you for the important question. You are quite right that the evidence on the potentially harmful effects of vapes is still developing, and we are not at the stage that we are with our knowledge of tobacco. Certainly, as we have said already, the harmful effects of vapes are, and are likely to be, significantly less than those of tobacco, but are unlikely to be zero. This is an area in which there is ongoing research. The World Health Organisation has raised concerns about the potential impact, particularly in children, in terms of brain development. I know you will hear more about that later from other panellists. That is something that we will obviously need to continue to keep under review. The Bill provides us with the opportunity to introduce further measures, should that be required.

However, in all this there is a need for balance. Obviously, the Government—and certainly the Northern Ireland Assembly, when they will be debating this in the coming weeks—will wish to ensure that there is a balance between ensuring that vapes are accessible to individuals to assist cessation of smoking and help them to quit, but also that we are guided by the evidence to ensure that any legislation that is introduced is proportionate. That is incumbent on all of us at this time. Certainly, should further evidence of harmful effects become available, there is the opportunity and flexibility within the Bill to look at this again.

Professor Sir Chris Whitty: I would add only that it took us some decades to work out the extraordinary impact of smoking. Much of that tends to be cumulative over time, so you do not see the major effects of someone starting to smoke in their 20s till they are in their 50s, 60s and 70s. What we do not want is to be looking back in 20 years’ time and saying, “We knew these were addictive; we knew that people were smoking things.” Things that go into the lungs are much more dangerous than things you eat, for a variety of reasons. Just basing it on lab studies is not a safe way to proceed. I think all of us were therefore thinking that the sensible thing to do, while maintaining vapes as a smoking quit aid, is to avoid a situation where people who are currently not smokers take up vapes, because they will definitely get addicted—the nicotine is there, and there is a high chance in our view that they will have harms, although the size of those harms is currently difficult to put an exact number on over time. Some people come to extreme harms quite quickly, actually, but those numbers are fortunately relatively small.

[Mr Alex Barros-Curtis (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

Q Building on what my colleague and yourselves are talking about, specifically on vaping, I am trying to drill into your confidence levels on the flexibility in the legislation, which you have been talking about. As has been indicated—you have all talked very eloquently about it—there is not as much of an evidence base when it comes to vaping, for all the reasons you have outlined. If we think of a new car or a new product in the market, it will go through a lot of testing before it is put out there, in order to ensure it is safe. I recognise that in that regard, the genie is out of the bottle. However, the evidence underpinning vaping, as regards the integrity and safety of public health, is not as rigorous. Therefore, should the Bill not go further in terms of putting in more stringent requirements in that regard, until we have confidence in the impact on public health across all our four nations?

Professor Sir Gregor Ian Smith: It is very difficult to disentangle the evidence about vaping, because so many of the people who are currently vaping are either current or ex-smokers as well. To do some form of longitudinal study that actually gets to develop the evidence base for any potential harm that is caused by vaping is difficult—although there are attempts to try to do that, such as through the Our Future Health study. At this moment, I think the provisions within the Bill represent a proportionate and reasonable approach with the flexibility that exists within it to be able to respond as new evidence develops, either towards or against the harms that are associated with vaping. I think it is proportionate in that it maintains vaping as a potential tool in the armoury to help people to stop smoking, but similarly it is proportionate in stopping the abhorrent marketing of vapes to children, which Sir Chris has already mentioned, and in allowing the position, which I think is correct, that if you have never started vaping or smoking, you should not. The proportionality of the provisions just now is heading in the right direction, but with the ability to flex as future evidence emerges.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

Thank you. I am afraid this will probably be the last question before the next panel of witnesses. Tristan Osborne, we have about two and a half minutes left.

[Tristan Osborne]

Q To go back to my earlier question on product displacement, which you have alluded to, you said there is concurrent evidence that people who are smoking are also vaping. Is there any evidence that there might be a cobra effect whereby, because we are banning disposable vapes, we are increasing the price of vaping, so you might then see people return to the product you were originally trying to get them off? Has there been any conversation in this space around what the evidence would be to show that the legislation is a success, beyond the overall reduction of smoking?

Hazel Cheeseman: Currently, vapes are much less expensive than smoking, and that is the kind of gap that we need to maintain. As the excise tax comes into force in October 2026—that is its planned enforcement date—the intention is to raise the tax on tobacco at the same time to maintain the price differential. That is crucial. We do want to find a sweet spot for the price of these products that makes the entry level for young people and non-smokers higher. It is a dissuasive technique so that people who do not need to be using these products do not use them. We obviously want them always to be cheaper than smoked or combusted tobacco, so that there is always that incentive for people to switch from the more harmful to the less harmful.

As has been repeatedly said, there is flexibility in the legislation: it allows us to calibrate. In particular, unlike the previous Bill, it allows us to regulate around product design and the size of products, so you could, for example, look to make them more expensive by changing the minimum size of the amount of liquid that could be sold. All this needs to be looked at once the Bill has passed. There is an awful lot of work to be done to calibrate around things like price, branding and so on, as the Bill passes and we move on to the secondary regulations.

Sheila Duffy: Absolutely—

[The Chair]

I do apologise, but I have to bring the session to a close as the time has been used up. I am sorry for interrupting. I thank our witnesses Hazel Cheeseman, Sheila Duffy, Suzanne Cass and Naomi Thompson for their evidence, and I am grateful for the questions that have been asked.

Examination of Witnesses

Dr Ian Walker and Sarah Sleet gave evidence.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Second sitting)

Tristan Osborne Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 7th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Andrew Gwynne]

Q The measures in the Bill include the introduction of a licensing scheme for England, for Wales and for Northern Ireland. Scotland already has its own arrangements, which the Bill will seek to extend. What would you like to see from a licensing scheme?

David Fothergill: We would like to see a licensing scheme that is very aligned with the alcohol licensing scheme, although there clearly cannot be a single scheme. The four provisions within the alcohol licensing scheme brought in by the Licensing Act 2003 were preventing crime and disorder, ensuring public safety, preventing public nuisance and protecting children from harm. If we can build those provisions into this legislation for the licensing of the sale of tobacco and vapes, that will give us enough to work on. I would also say that the flexibility we need at a local level remains critical.

[Tristan Osborne (Chatham and Aylesford) (Lab)]

Q My first question is on the enforcement element. We have had some correspondence and feedback that the £200 level is too low. I wonder whether councils or the Local Government Association have a view on the appropriate level. Conversely, if the level were too high, it would potentially damage high streets by loss of trade and shops closing because of fear. Is there a worry in the local government community that we could see high street shops closing as a result of enforcement? Again, those are some of the comments coming out of the correspondence we have received.

David Fothergill: I will take the fines element first and then talk about the cost of licensing for those retailers. A fine of £200 is quite a low figure. I think it was £100 previously, so it has been increased. If you pay within 10 days, it goes from £200 to £100. If you sell 40 vapes in one day, you have paid your fine. Some retailers—very few, because the vast majority are scrupulous—will take the view that they could sell more vapes to under-age people and those they should not be selling to, and pay that £100 fine within 10 days. So yes, we view it as too low. We would like to see a review brought in within a year to see whether it should be increased.

If we can align the cost of licensing fees with alcohol licensing, that would enable us to find a way to reduce the burden, because the vast majority of people who are selling alcohol are also selling tobacco. We need to work with our businesses to reduce the cost of applying for those licences, which is why we need the consultation period over the next few months, before we bring in legislation, to ensure that we have worked with our retailers, the public and our communities in order to deliver a scheme that actually works.

[Euan Stainbank (Falkirk) (Lab)]

Q Do you believe that the generational smoking ban might cause an increase in the use of other nicotine products such as vapes, smoke-free tobacco or even illicit products?

Alison Challenger: We are ultimately trying to reduce the harm caused by smoking—that is the big killer, and we really would not want to lose sight of that. The Bill also brings in elements around the second-hand smoke agenda. It is important to recognise that there are many vulnerable people who would potentially be harmed by breathing in second-hand smoke, so we welcome the fact that the Bill includes that element. As for whether it will increase vaping, it is really hard to know at the moment how that will work out. Potentially more people might switch to vaping, but ultimately, the Bill brings in a progressive approach to taking out smoking tobacco, which is to be welcomed.

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[John Whitby (Derbyshire Dales) (Lab)]

Q There are obviously going to be future health benefits and financial benefits but, realistically, based on what happened in New Zealand, how quickly are we going to feel the benefits, public health-wise and financially? It is going to take years for us to realise the benefits of the Bill.

Professor Linda Bauld: This is quite a comprehensive piece of legislation, with lots of different pieces, so I will give a couple of examples. One area we looked at was protecting more places from second-hand smoke, and the health benefits of that to people who are vulnerable—people with asthma, respiratory conditions and cardiovascular disease—are very immediate. When the smoking ban came in in England in 2007, I did a study looking at admissions to hospital from myocardial infarction after the legislation was introduced, and in the first year we saw substantial reductions in admissions to hospital for heart attacks. So I think some things will be quite quick.

In terms of the pregnancy question, if a woman is not smoking during pregnancy—some of the measures encourage that—the health benefits to the mum and the baby are immediate and long lasting. I also mentioned the modelling statistics on driving down prevalence, which is obviously going to take more time. There are then the regulations to protect young people from vaping, some of which will, I think, have quite a big effect if they prevent somebody from taking up vaping at all, and some will take a bit longer in terms of driving down the rates. It is a balance.

The final thing I would say is—this is my opportunity to make this point, as you would expect—please, let us make sure that we do the research. We must support the academic community to do the research to monitor how the Bill is implemented, so that we can provide evidence that what colleagues have put forward and decided to do actually makes a difference. Other countries will then be able to look at that evidence and make up their own minds.

[Tristan Osborne]

Q I have read some of your research from Edinburgh and have two questions relating to it. First, you said that in the research you undertook two years ago 40% of smokers thought that vaping was more harmful than cigarettes. What is the evidence base for that? Based on my understanding of the industry, and from elsewhere, that seems to be quite a high proportion.

Secondly, linking to the economic argument you made earlier, you are right that deprivation is key. There is more smoking in deprived communities. I have asked all the witnesses this question. Is there a concern that because of the concurrency of people vaping and smoking, the people who are doing both will move to an economically cheaper option—that is, pick up smoking again because vapes might become more expensive because of other measures that are introduced? Has that concern been raised in academia?

Professor Linda Bauld: Let me start with the first part of your question. Those data come from the Action on Smoking and Health survey covering Great Britain, which was funded by Cancer Research UK and conducted by YouGov for ASH. Those harm perceptions are really concerning to me because we do not want people who have never smoked or young people to be vaping but, from the evidence I have seen, if more of those 6 million smokers could switch to vaping, we would see health benefits. I think those misconceptions are largely driven by the media and some of the myths—the really harmful stories that get the front page. We need to deal with that and make sure that health professionals and others are empowered to give accurate advice about vaping. We have got a distance to run on that, and anything that the Bill can do to assist that would be welcome.

On whether people who are dual using, which is a significant proportion of smokers, are more likely to switch to smoking if we take action on, for example, removing point-of-sale displays or take other measures on vaping, I am actually not sure about that. The key point is that we need to continue to make smoking more expensive than vaping and to make sure that we address the availability of tobacco in our environment and in different settings. If we can keep that balance to show that vaping is a good option for cessation and is more affordable than cessation, while we keep doing the research on it, I would be optimistic that we are not going to see masses of smokers who are currently vaping to cut down just switch back to smoking in its entirety—hopefully.

[Mr Alex Barros-Curtis (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

Q Thank you, Professor Bauld, for your evidence today. Reflecting on your wealth of experience in this area and your analysis of the Bill—with comparisons to our international partners and counterparts—are there any aspects of the Bill that you think could be further improved, noting, obviously, the difference between the previous Government’s version and this version? We heard one example from the previous panel, who talked about the fixed penalty notices. Is £200 too low a number? You may want to comment on that. But, generally, on the wider parts of the Bill, is there anything you think could be improved on to deliver the public health and other benefits that we have espoused in this session?

--- Later in debate ---

[Sadik Al-Hassan]

Q Thinking specifically about vapes, do you feel that this Bill goes far enough in providing tougher regulations and more resources for enforcement, while balancing the burden on businesses that probably have not had this level of regulation?

Lord Michael Bichard: We think it does. You have to look at the package, because you do not just have age regulation or display and promotion regulation; you also have the proposal for licensing—which, by the way, we do not see trading standards being equipped to do; that is a local authority business and, as a former local authority man, I would have to say “with the resources”, because there is always a danger that you give local authorities more power but you do not give them the money.

You have regulation, you have licensing and you have registration of products. If you put all that together, I think it is quite a powerful package, but it does need to be backed up with the resources, because it is delivering it that really matters. We are all used to legislation that sounds great and never gets delivered.

Wendy Martin: I agree; we think the balance is there, hopefully with good communication to businesses. Again, in a similar way, this is not going to be entirely new territory—certainly for those businesses that are already involved in the sale of alcohol and tobacco in particular—in understanding where to go for support and the kind of controls that are in place. Certainly, if the changes are made to the product registration scheme, which should then make it more effective for businesses to be able to check that a product they are stocking is legal and compliant—if the package is right, as Michael said—it should not be too complex for businesses to comply with it.

[Tristan Osborne]

Q I have two questions. First, on digital taxation, I understand that under the previous Government, in March, vapes were to become digitally registered—with a digital tax—which should make it easier to identify fraud and misaligned products effectively. Is there any commentary around the implementation of that? Have you seen that come forward? Are you working with HMRC on the sort of digital tax regime around that? Do you think that that is important, in your job, to reduce fraudulent products?

Secondly, in the United States, you can have products with up to 60 mg-worth of nicotine; that is a standard product in the United States. In the UK, it is 20 mg, or significantly less. Is there an awareness within trading standards of just how much we are potentially out of kilter with some of the key markets that we are aligned to? Our limit is significantly lower than those of other major economies, so do you think that we might therefore have a problem with products perhaps coming in from other sources that are not the same as tobacco? Is that a concern for your Department?

Lord Michael Bichard: I will pass that one to Wendy, if it is not unfair. On the first point, you are right that we think that that is going to make regulation enforcement easier but I will have to leave the second question to Wendy, I am afraid.

Wendy Martin: Just to reinforce Michael’s point around the digital stamps, I am not close to this myself, but I know that trading standards colleagues who are operational experts in this field are working in response to the various HMRC consultations about the implementation of excise and tax stamps, and those sorts of things. I know those conversations are happening, and I think the view is that that kind of simple identification is really important for trading standards.

In terms of the 60 mg versus 20 mg, I am afraid I do not have any detailed knowledge of that personally, but I would certainly anticipate that those kinds of challenges and issues would be built into the guidance and information being put to officers and any planned training programmes once we know the final form of the Bill, the excise duty and all the other changes coming over the next few years as the Bill and other legislation progress. I am sorry that I do not have a detailed answer.

Lord Michael Bichard: But we can get it for you.

[Euan Stainbank]

Q Do you see any challenges in the enforcement of the advertising and display of vapes, in shops especially—in what we would class as more generic stores, rather than bespoke venues?

Lord Michael Bichard: I do not want to sound complacent, because I am not. But this is something we are used to doing, so we do not see that as a major issue or a major problem. That is what we do.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sadik Al-Hassan]

Q You have listed a couple of bits, but do you think there are any further measures that would help to limit the appeal of vapes to children and young people?

Matthew Shanks: I think the appearance and location of vape shops are important, so there could be better regulation around that. We have talked already about sponsorship bans. We have talked about raising the age of sale for vapes. I think vape packages should have the same kind of warnings that cigarette packages have on them. I really think so, because at the moment, they do not—and why would they not, if it is a cessation? “You are going to stop that, but you could still get this, so actually, we want to stop that.” Ultimately, that is what we should be aiming for.

I think the young people parenting support provisions are engaged in that, because as I have said, parents see this as a way of enticing children back into school or helping them or taking away an argument. You have to appreciate that I am not criticising parents, because they have a tricky job to get them back in. They see this as something safe and think they are caring for their child, so if we make it clear that actually it is not, that will be really important.

I have talked about vape detectors being useful in schools, but would it not be good if actually these things were banned? Then they could not be there. From that point of view, I think it is important.

[Tristan Osborne]

Q My question is about price. In this Bill, we are looking to ban disposable vapes, which, as a former teacher myself, I used to see in toilet bowls and other exciting locations in secondary schools, sadly. Do you think that that is going to have a major impact in the form of kids perhaps not being able to afford these products, and so we will see a reduction? Do you think that the price differential is going to be an important factor?

Matthew Shanks: Yes, but not on its own. It would help, but people will find a way to get something if they want it—we know that. The price hike without the education might increase other instances of unpleasantness between people, such as bullying, bribing, theft and so on. It has to come alongside education. The whole message needs to be that vaping is not something for children to engage in. It is something to help people to stop smoking. That is my view and the view of educators.

[Euan Stainbank]

Q I have a quick question about flavours and colourings. I am trying to understand the predominant issue with reusable vapes. I am quite surprised to hear that refillable vapes are not an issue in schools. Could you expand on that?

Matthew Shanks: It is not that they are not an issue—

Tobacco and Vapes Bill

Tristan Osborne Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 26th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[Tristan Osborne (Chatham and Aylesford) (Lab)]

Like previous speakers, I have not been challenged on my age, even though I use moisturiser; perhaps it is my receding hairline. I thank the hon. Member for North Dorset (Simon Hoare) for his eloquent speech about the Conservative party’s one nation tradition and his support for the Bill. It is absolutely the case that this legislation comes on the back of decades of other Bills and Acts that have acknowledged the challenges around smoking in our society. He eloquently articulates that evolution in our body politic.

I celebrate the fact that the Bill follows other landmark Acts of Parliament under the previous Labour Government, one of which had an impact on me when I worked in the retail industry. The ban on smoking in workplaces made a fundamental change to many people’s lives and overnight improved the life chances of many millions of our citizens. As has been said by Members across the Chamber, there is a consensus that smoking remains one of the leading causes of death, claiming 80,000 lives annually and costing the NHS billions of pounds, with some estimates putting it at between £3 billion and £5 billion.

[Andrew Rosindell]

On that basis, would the hon. Gentleman also ban alcohol? Would he ban all types of unhealthy foods, or chocolate—where does it end?

[Tristan Osborne]

We have age restrictions on alcohol sales and the Bill proposes doing the same. Similarly, for other substances in society, we look in a proportionate way at their health consequences; for instance, we class particular categories of drugs as A, B and C. All those things need to be taken as individual elements. Certainly, we will look at other proposals, but on this particular element, smoking and tobacco have been widely acknowledged as a public concern over many decades.

The vaping industry has seen some positive outcomes, with people transferring from cigarettes to vaping, as my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne East and Wallsend (Mary Glindon) pointed out. Indeed, that use for those products has been acknowledged by the NHS. As a former teacher, however, I have also seen the consequences for young people and that has been acknowledged by many parents in the Chamber. I have unfortunately seen in the classroom, through confiscation and the illicit behaviours of some young people, that blue razz lemonade, watermelon bubble gum and strawberry raspberry cherry ice are all flavours of vapes. They are being marketed at young people, whether directly or indirectly, because we know, as does the tobacco industry, that young people are where the use of tobacco-based products starts.

I have seen at first hand the consequences of the proliferation of vaping in schools and its ubiquitous presence across my area in Chatham and Aylesford. I agree that the Bill’s removal of disposable, single-use vapes, which are currently so easily accessible and cynically marketed, is a sensible move and should reverse the recent trend of young people who have never smoked turning to vapes as an initial access point. It should also stop vapes being seen as a gateway to other types of drugs. Sadly, I have to report that cannabis-based products and other illicit products are gaining ground among disposable vape products.

At the same time, millions of single-use electrical devices blight our local landscapes. Many disposable vapes are deposited on roadsides and in parks, and while it is not specifically part of the content of the Bill, the reality is that vapes have environmental consequences.

The branding of some flavours has been a key driver of youth take-up. To prevent under-age appeal, flavours should be adult-focused and restricted to such flavours as tobacco, menthol and a handful of responsibly branded fruit flavours. I note that some in the industry are already promoting that agenda.

The age restrictions are sensible, and I think that the rising age escalator will be enforceable. Indeed, many supermarkets already have an age limit well above that which is legally required and challenge at the point of disposal.

[Vikki Slade (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD)]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the upper-age escalator could prove difficult later on, particularly in respect of the ability of those who sell tobacco? At the moment, if a young person sells alcohol, they have to get a supervisor who is older to allow it. When the people selling alcohol are in their thirties, but were born after 2009, and everyone else in the shop is in their thirties, who will be allowed to sell the tobacco? Does he have any thoughts on that?

[Tristan Osborne]

The licensing regime will be looked at in detail, but the reality is that, when I am buying alcohol in a supermarket, I might be challenged on my age by someone at the counter who is over the age of 16. I think I am correct in saying that I would then have to prove my age at point of sale. I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong on that.

Enforcement is very welcome. As a former council portfolio holder for licensing, it was always very difficult to respond to emails from residents seeking redress around the sale of vaping products. Some products were being sold over the counter in unlicensed premises, so enforcement was very difficult. Other products were being marketed using very aggressive advertising. I welcome the licensing element of the Bill and look forward to hearing more details. Councils, I believe, are ready to take on the mantle of licensing. They license many other types of premises, and I suspect that this latest measure will just be an addition to the existing regime. The measure will challenge bad faith actors and illicit products. I have been asking questions about a digital tax on vaping products to see whether we can treat this sector in a similar way to other tobacco-based products.

I welcome the Bill because it will put us back on the front foot as a world leader in tobacco harm reduction, and help us lead the way in improving standards in cigarette alternatives. If we get this right, which I believe we will with this Bill, we can maintain a healthy balance, with vape usage targeted at the adult market and used as a means to reduce addiction to other nicotine-based products. The Bill balances the liberty of individuals to make choices with the responsibility of the state to uphold the public health of the most vulnerable and our young people, and I urge colleagues to support it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Gwynne]

We have already doubled the fine proposed in the previous Government’s Bill, which is a step. I listened very carefully to the hon. Gentleman’s argument, and he might wish to pursue it in Committee, should he be fortunate enough to be a Committee member. I look forward to the debates we might have.

A number of questions about the licensing regime were posed by the shadow Secretary of State, as well as by the hon. Member for North Shropshire (Helen Morgan), the hon. Member for North Dorset (Simon Hoare) and others. I reassure the House that across the sector, there is broad consensus among retailers about a licensing scheme; more than four fifths of them have expressed their support. Unlike alcohol, there is no licensing requirement for tobacco. A lot of people outside this House would find that hard to understand. They assume that convenience stores, supermarkets and other places that sell alcohol are licensed in a similar way to sell tobacco products, but that is not the case. We will bring in a licensing scheme, because we know that will have a huge public health impact, as other licensing regimes do.

[Tristan Osborne]

When I was on a council, I had a portfolio managing licensing. Councils already manage significant licensing functions, so it would be very convenient to simply add this function to those. That would not necessarily be a significant bureaucratic hurdle, as has been said.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Local government will take the lead on this matter, and we will consult widely on how we bring forward the licensing regime, and on how we implement it through secondary legislation, following that consultation. An impact assessment will be prepared before the secondary legislation is introduced, but I want to work with local government across England—I am sure that ministerial counterparts in other parts of the United Kingdom seeking to bring in a licensing regime will do the same—to ensure that we get this right for local government. That includes ensuring that the cost of running a licensing regime is met by the regime itself.

Oral Answers to Questions

Tristan Osborne Excerpts

Tuesday 19th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Kinnock]

Absolutely. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has said, we have already met with the British Dental Association, and no issues are off the table. We absolutely need to look at orthodontists in the round as part of the contract negotiations, and we will certainly report back on that in due course.

[Tristan Osborne (Chatham and Aylesford) (Lab)]

9. What plans he has to reform NHS health and social care services.

[Kevin Bonavia (Stevenage) (Lab)]

22. What plans he has to reform NHS health and social care services.

[Mr Speaker]

I think you already have, but there we are.

[Tristan Osborne]

I wish my right hon. Friend would go on. Irresponsible promises were made by the Opposition about capital investment in hospitals and elective surgeries across the country, including in the three Medway constituencies. Will my right hon. Friend meet me and my hon. Friends the Members for Rochester and Strood (Lauren Edwards) and for Gillingham and Rainham (Naushabah Khan) to discuss the much-needed NHS investment in our area?