Tributes to Baroness Thatcher
Thomas Docherty Excerpts(11 years, 7 months ago)
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Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)
It is a privilege to close this debate on behalf of Her Majesty’s Opposition.
We have heard excellent contributions from right hon. and hon. Members on the Back Benches of both sides of the House, and from all parts of the UK. Because of time constraints, I cannot mention them all, but I want to single out just four. We heard thoughtful contributions from those who served under her, such as the right hon. and learned Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind) and the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood). We heard from Members who knew her personally. The hon. Member for Bournemouth West (Conor Burns) made a deeply felt contribution. He spoke with eloquence and emotion, particularly about his experiences of her in her later years.
However, while we recognise Baroness Thatcher as an extraordinary figure, we have heard many right hon. and hon. Members speak with great feeling and conviction about her influence on them and their constituencies, including my hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson). I represent a former mining community in Scotland, and I believe it is only right that the House has heard from Members who represent similar communities. The debate has shown the wide-ranging views in the House. I am sure that Baroness Thatcher, as a great parliamentarian, would appreciate how the debate has been conducted.
Today has been an opportunity for right hon. and hon. Members to express their condolences to Baroness Thatcher’s family and close personal friends. The Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition and many right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House have spoken of her political achievements. She was the first woman to lead a British political party, the first female British Prime Minister, the winner of three general elections, and a leader who certainly knew her mind.
The House has heard memories of Baroness Thatcher from the world stage to the domestic stage, and the debate has been a fitting tribute to her.
Oral Answers to Questions
Thomas Docherty Excerpts(11 years, 9 months ago)
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The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes an important point. Of course councils face difficult spending decisions, but in many cases the level of spending and grant they are still getting is equivalent to what they received under the last Government. Obviously, the economy has declined since then and we have to cut our cloth accordingly. Councils should be held accountable for the decisions that they make, and in some cases there can be little doubt that they are making high-profile cuts to try to make a point. They should not be damaging people’s livelihoods; they should be doing the best for their cities.
Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)
Will the Prime Minister confirm for the record that thanks to his cuts to the child care element of the working tax credit, families with children are losing up to £1,500 a year?
The Prime Minister
What has happened with child tax credit is that we increased it by £390 in this Government’s early Budgets. If we look at the benefits for a two parent, two child family, we see that that family will be getting more than £1,500 extra this year—that is £30 a week—compared with 2010. I am afraid the hon. Gentleman is wrong.
Commercial Lobbyists (Registration and Code of Conduct) Bill
Thomas Docherty Excerpts(11 years, 9 months ago)
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Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
I would like to begin by thanking the Clerks for their assistance in drafting the Bill. I know that you are a fan of our Clerks, Mr Speaker, and it is important to place on the record my thanks to Kate Emms and Simon Patrick for their help in drafting this Bill—and one or two others on today’s Order Paper. I am also grateful to the Minister for taking the time to meet me to discuss this issue. Without wishing to damage her career, I want to say it was a productive and useful conversation; I hope the Whips were not paying too much attention to that comment!
I shall address each clause in turn, and will be happy to hear any observations or questions from colleagues. I would observe, however, that a number of other Bills are on the Order Paper, so I hope that we can have a productive and focused discussion, bearing in mind the serious issues to be dealt with later.
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
The Bill became available in the Vote Office only a couple of days ago, as the hon. Gentleman will know, and when I asked about it, I was told that there were no explanatory notes. I hope that he will bear that in mind as he goes through the Bill.
Thomas Docherty
The Bill is simple enough, but I commend to the hon. Gentleman both the Public Administration Committee report and the Library note.
On the question of what a lobbyist is, I think we sometimes get things back to front. We have tended to try to define what a lobbyist is, rather than lobbying. For the purposes of the Bill, the groups of people and organisations we are trying to capture are those that are paid or receive financial recompense for carrying out this activity.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
Has the hon. Gentleman drawn any distinction between a small business that would naturally go to its local MP with any issue and a company, perhaps a multinational, with no links at all to that constituency?
Thomas Docherty
The hon. Gentleman is entirely right. If he will bear with me for a couple of moments, I will explain exactly how the Bill makes the distinction, and again I would commend to him the PASC report, which talks about that very issue.
A high-profile Bill on equal marriage is coming before the House next Tuesday. Like many Members on both sides of the House, I have received a number of letters from constituents and organisations about it. I will take one example. If my local parish priest were to write to me, either as a constituent or on behalf of his congregation, expressing a view either way, he would not be captured by this definition, because he would not be getting paid to undertake that activity. It would be in addition to his remunerated post. If, however, the Church of England, the Church of Scotland, the Roman Catholic Church or any other Church were to employ a public affairs officer to draft a letter or organise meetings, he or she would clearly be getting paid to organise, either directly or as an adviser, that lobbying activity.
Thomas Docherty
I have a delightful choice. I will give way to the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) first.
Mr Chope
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for trying to explain the distinction. I will give him another example. The noble Lord Mandelson is in receipt of a European Union pension and as a former commissioner is under an obligation to campaign for the EU. He has recently started a lobbying campaign against the UK leaving the EU. Is that commercial lobbying? It is certainly driven by the noble Lord’s financial interest as a former EU commissioner. Should that be registered as well?
Thomas Docherty
I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising that example. He will see that we talk about peers in later clauses. With his indulgence, I would like to return later to the issue of peers undertaking lobbying activities later. On the principle, however, if we were to leave the European Union, the pension of the Deputy Prime Minister, for example, as a former euro civil servant, would not be affected. In the same way, that consideration would probably not apply in the case that the hon. Gentleman raises.
Philip Davies
I hope that the hon. Gentleman will bear in mind the fact that EU pensions are forfeitable, unlike most other pensions. However, let me return to the point I raised initially. Where a managing director of a small business, perhaps in my constituency, took on a number of roles because of the nature of that business and one of them was explaining to the local Member of Parliament exactly what was necessary for the livelihood of his business, would that constitute lobbying for financial gain—it would clearly be in the financial interests of the company—and would it thereby be captured by the Bill?
Thomas Docherty
I am genuinely grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising that point. Perhaps I could present two separate examples and then he can tell me whether I have answered his question fully. If a local business person is the chairman or chairwoman of a local chamber of commerce that meets regularly on behalf of its members to lobby on issues of concern, they would not be covered by the Bill, nor should they be. However, if a Member of this House voluntarily or, as occasionally happens, involuntarily loses their seat and sets themselves up as a sole trader or limited company for the express purpose of being a lobbyist—like, I am sure, many Members, I have had the opportunity to meet former Members who are engaged in that profession—they would be covered by the Bill. The Association of Professional Political Consultants is the largest trade body for third-party lobbyists. A large number of its members are small businesses that are sole traders or perhaps employ only two or three people.
James Duddridge (Rochford and Southend East) (Con)
The hon. Gentleman has raised the issue of former Members having to comply with “any code”. Why did he exempt former Members from the passholder requirements? Clause 3(3) says: “Any code shall provide”, and so on—it basically constrains the number of people with passes to this place who can lobby—but exempts former Members of either House of Parliament. That seems unfair.
Thomas Docherty
The Commission is examining that matter, through the Administration Committee, and I did not wish to cut across the work of the Commission, for which I have the highest regard. My personal view—I think I am on record as having said this to the Administration Committee—is that former Members should not be allowed to have passes. I hope we can examine that in the Committee stage of this Bill. I would certainly be receptive to the idea of making alterations to remove the reference to former passholders, but I am mindful that this issue is on the Administration Committee’s agenda and I did not wish to prejudge anything. I hope that has provided some reassurance to the hon. Gentleman.
I thank the hon. Gentleman for raising that issue, because he has led me on nicely—perhaps he read my mind—to the registration of lobbyists, which is dealt with in clause 1. As set out in the Bill, those who undertake this activity—I hope we have had a good discussion and have now established what the definition is—
Jacob Rees-Mogg
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way, but I am not entirely sure that we have clarified the definition. I would like to return to his example of the priest who lobbies on behalf of his religion. For proselytising religions, surely lobbying is part of the function for which they receive remuneration, even if, in the case of a Catholic priest, it is only a modest income to allow them subsistence.
Thomas Docherty
I have an incredible amount of respect for the hon. Gentleman, with whom I have the privilege of serving on the Procedure Committee, but I do not share his analysis of the role of a Catholic priest or, indeed, any other person of the cloth. It is not in their job description to be lobbying on public policy issues. I am sure that on another day the hon. Gentleman might be tempted to start the debate about the Reformation and the limitations placed on the Church of England to prevent interference in the monarch’s role in legislating, but I know that he is saving that for another day.
James Duddridge
I thank the hon. Gentleman for amending his Bill in relation to former Members of Parliament, but I must agree with my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg). The definition of “lobbying” is totally inadequate. Not only that, but the word “commercial” has been bunged into the long title without any definition whatever. One can make assumptions about that, but where do trade unions or voluntary organisations with commercial arms fit into this? The hon. Gentleman might have an idea of what “commercial” means, but he does not define it in the Bill or leave it open to the Government to define, subsequent to the Bill becoming an Act.
Thomas Docherty
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his observations. I would say gently to him that this is not the definition that I drew up; it is the definition from the Public Affairs Council’s website and its evidence to the Public Administration Select Committee, and it was accepted by the Committee as a reasonable definition. However, he may wish to take the matter up with the Public Affairs Council, which represents all lobbyists.
Thomas Docherty
The term “commercial” has been used to distinguish those concerned from those working in a voluntary capacity. I return to the example raised by the hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg). This is not about an individual constituent, such as the chair of the local chamber of commerce or the chair of a residents’ association, who will understandably wish to lobby their Member of Parliament or local councillor about issues that affect them, but in respect of which they receive no remuneration.
It sounds as though the hon. Member for Rochford and Southend East (James Duddridge) is keen to serve on the Bill Committee. He could probably be accommodated, because he might bring an interesting perspective to some of our forthcoming discussions on the Bill. Indeed, some of the issues he raises could be dealt with in Committee.
James Duddridge
I am more than happy to serve on the Committee. However, I have listened to the hon. Gentleman and, from my initial parsing of the Bill, I think that despite its being drafted by a very excellent Clerk of the House, Kate Emms, it is fundamentally flawed.
Thomas Docherty
I am sure that as this day goes on, my arguments and those of other colleagues will persuade the hon. Gentleman to change his mind. In fact, we might even be lobbying him later.
Jacob Rees-Mogg
I am more sympathetic to the Bill than my hon. Friend the Member for Rochford and Southend East (James Duddridge) is, but there is a grey area that has not been satisfactorily defined. That involves people who, within their paid work, end up doing a bit of lobbying. It would be hard to explain that they were being paid to work 39 hours a week and that for one hour a week they were volunteers. I do not see how we could make a legal definition along those lines.
Thomas Docherty
The hon. Gentleman has made a significant point. I served as a lobbyist, both in-house and as a third-party consultant, for a number of years. He is right to suggest that someone could undertake what most people would define as lobbying activity on a part-time basis. For three years, I worked in the nuclear industry, for British Nuclear Fuels Ltd. My official title was press and public affairs officer, and, in effect ran BNFL’s operation in Scotland. I was responsible for working with the local community on a range of stakeholder issues, I drafted the press releases for the Chapelcross and Hunterston sites, and I looked after Sellafield’s inquiries in Scotland, which involved going to the Scottish Parliament. I also recall spending two or three wonderful days in the Western Isles making a presentation to the council on technetium discharges into the Irish sea.
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to say that someone can undertake lobbying activities without that being their sole purpose. Any relatively reasonable individual—I can think of no better description for the hon. Gentleman—who looked at a job description and saw lobbying activities among the core functions, or the outcome of lobbying as a measure related to pay, would draw a reasonable assumption from that.
I must remind the House that the definition I have used is the one used by the UK Public Affairs Council in its submission to the PASC inquiry on this subject. I have met representatives of a wide range of organisations, including the Association of Professional Political Consultants and Unlock Democracy, and they have been satisfied that the definition is suitably robust. The Bill tries to strike the right balance by using a definition that goes as widely as is reasonable without inadvertently drawing in the kind of individuals that Conservative Members have mentioned, such as members of the local chamber of commerce or people who come along to make representations to their Member of Parliament or local authority.
I will make some progress now, as I am conscious that other Members wish to speak in the debate. A registration process exists at the moment. The largest single organisation is the Association of Professional Political Consultants, which has been in existence for about 18 years. It is made up of most of the well-known lobbying and public affairs companies and many small companies, as well as political consultants—that is, third-party lobbyists. The association has a membership of about 50 companies and individuals who work as sole traders. They all sign up to the association’s register, and they have to abide by its code of conduct. They also have to publish on a quarterly basis a list of their clients, including those for whom they are doing paid work and those for whom they are working pro bono. It is interesting to note that a number of companies undertake pro bono work. They do so for various reasons, and I dare say that some of them do it to get some good PR for themselves.
In 2009, when the then Cabinet Office Ministers were considering their response to the previous PASC report on this issue, a number of the leading players in public relations got together. They included not only APPC members but representatives of the law firms that have public relations arms and of the Chartered Institute of Public Relations. They decided that they had a choice, and that a statutory body would be set up if they took no further steps and failed to recognise the significant problems that the PASC report had identified, which Ministers were considering. That was one of the clear outcomes of the PASC report. They therefore set up the body known as UKPAC—the United Kingdom Public Affairs Council.
I was the secretary of the Scottish branch of the APPC for a while, and I attended one of the meetings in the summer of 2009 at which the APPC board discussed UKPAC. I remember counselling the board that a voluntary system would not work, and in the two and a half years since it was set up, it has not worked. I will explain more about that later. It is interesting to note that there was agreement on this issue among those in the industry. It is important to remember that it is an important, multi-billion pound industry.
Lobbying is a healthy part of our democracy. We have already heard some examples of the roles that it can play, and no one has criticised them. We have heard about local businesses or religious organisations being involved, as well as companies being employed by individuals. In a parliamentary democracy such as ours, it is every citizen’s right to lobby their Member of Parliament, and I believe that it is their right either to lobby their MP themselves or, if they feel that they do not have the time or the skills to do that, to employ someone else either individually or collectively to do it for them. That is not to say that those who are so employed and who make a financial gain from lobbying should be allowed to do so unchecked, without any rules whatever. Registration is an important step in the right direction.
A journalist from a relatively august newspaper—not quite The Times; it was an almost august newspaper— phoned me yesterday to ask me how many people worked in lobbying and public affairs. I have taken a close interest in this issue, both before I entered the House and since, but I did not know how many people were working in that field. I think it was the Library briefing note that estimated that only 1% of those working in public affairs were third-party lobbyists—that is, consultants—and that 99% worked in-house. It is therefore vital that registration should cover not only third-party lobbyists but all those who undertake commercial, paid lobbying. Both PASC reports have acknowledged that, as have the industry players and Unlock Democracy—not, perhaps, a natural ally of the lobbying industry. Indeed, everyone—bar one important group of people—believes that any register or code of conduct should cover all those who undertake commercial lobbying.
To use a made-up example, it would be ridiculous if “Landmines R Us” were not required to register its multi-million pound public affairs operation because that operation was in-house, while those whom it employed as third-party consultants were required to be registered even though they accounted for only a tiny proportion of the time and money the company spent in that area.
A Member asked me a question this morning in the Tea Room. I am always loth to give away Tea Room secrets—[Interruption.] To be fair, as I recall it, he was heading out of the door, so I take that into account. He asked me why the Bill did not deal only with third-party lobbyists, and the answer is that they are such a small percentage. It would be strange if it dealt only with the third-party lobbyists and not those who work in-house. We need a level playing field. That was the conclusion of PASC and Unlock Democracy, and it was the conclusion reached by the industry itself. I am not sure that the Cabinet Office is there yet, but I know the Minister is considering the matter carefully. Perhaps she will be in a position to comment either today or in the near future.
Philip Davies
I am just wondering how great a revelation it will be for the general public to find out that the public affairs manager for Asda is registered as doing lobbying on behalf of Asda.
Thomas Docherty
The hon. Gentleman makes a valid point about the point of registration. The point is not simply to put people’s names on to a register, which is why the code of conduct is so important. The PASC report said that having a register that is not backed up by a code of conduct is, in itself, pointless. The hon. Gentleman is therefore entirely correct to suggest that a having a register for its own sake does not do anything. If no offences can be charged against the people on the register and there are no rules of behaviour, the register will be pointless. I do not know whether what I am going to say will be worse for his career or for mine—
Thomas Docherty
I am sure the hon. Gentleman has a bright future and is good stalking-horse material. Anyway, I entirely agree with him that a register by itself would be a waste of everyone’s time and money.
James Duddridge
Will the hon. Gentleman explain what exactly is being registered? Will it be a company or an individual? In the example mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies), the head of public relations or public affairs for Asda will clearly be involved in lobbying, but surely we would also expect the finance director to be involved in lobbying in some shape or form. Would they have to register separately, or would a kind of group registration apply? I am also concerned about the fact that individuals come and go in organisations, as there will be a heavy bureaucratic cost in registering every individual if it is not the group that is registered as a whole.
Thomas Docherty
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question, but I would like to put a question back to him. Can he explain why he thinks the finance director would have to be on the register of lobbyists?
James Duddridge
Because I think the finance director of any organisation should take a strong interest in the taxation arrangements and in the regulatory burdens imposed by the state on the individual company. All that is a broader aspect of being on a company board. On this basis, one would expect the full board to register individually. Quite frankly, if it is not trying to influence the Government, it is not doing its job.
Thomas Docherty
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his clarification. I see where he has gone with that point, and I apologise if I have not articulated the position clearly enough. Let me try to explain it again. The finance director, in and of himself, would not be—and is not at the moment—a lobbyist according to anyone’s definition. If a company secretary or executive officer has a job description that includes a reference to being a director of internal communications or to company relations, for example, that individual would need to be on the register. The hon. Gentleman is right about that. On the other hand, an individual who has an interest in those areas in the course of carrying out their normal duties, but whose job description does not refer to lobbying activity as part of their paid role, would not need to be on the register. He is entirely right to raise these questions, but I refer him to the two Select Committee reports produced in this Parliament and the previous one, as well as to the Cabinet Office discussions on this matter under this Government and the previous one. I also refer him to the discussions with the industry and with champions of more transparent behaviour, none of which said there was a problem. I hope that that provides some reassurance.
James Duddridge
I hope to make my own speech later, so perhaps I can drill down in more detail then. The hon. Gentleman has been clear about people more senior than a public affairs director, but what about more junior posts? A director of public affairs and a senior manager will, as the hon. Gentleman has explained, need to register, but what about other people within those teams? How low down in the organisation does it go? Could this prove to be a disincentive to be employed as a secretary in the public affairs team rather than the finance team?
Thomas Docherty
I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his question, and I would like to answer it before responding to the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies).
There are three different organisations at UK level that keep various registers, and there is an organisation in Scotland called ASPA—the Association for Scottish Public Affairs. Let me give a further example to explain the position. My wife, who is currently on maternity leave, works for Age Scotland. Age Scotland has a public affairs or public relations operation and is a member of ASPA. It declares to ASPA the people who in the public affairs or public relations team; indeed, its head of public relations is this year’s convener; for those who have not had the benefit of a Scottish education, a convener is a Scottish version of a chairman or chairwoman. Because my wife has no direct link to the comms operation, she is not registered. The fact that a relatively small charity such as Age Scotland is able to comply with those requirements shows that this is not an unreasonable burden.
As Conservative Members may know, I am something of a free marketeer and I do not always agree that regulation is the best way forward. What this Bill seeks to do is place a reasonable burden on those organisations for which there is a financial reward from the activity of lobbying. As I say, this goes no further than the Association of Professional Political Consultants already requires its members to do—members that are as large as Weber Shandwick and Bell Pottinger, and as small as some sole traders.
Philip Davies
I am getting more and more confused, which you might say is not difficult, Mr Speaker. I think my hon. Friend the Member for Rochford and Southend East (James Duddridge) could be on to something with his examples of the finance director and board members. The hon. Gentleman’s own definition of lobbying does not seem to match what he thinks should be covered. The Bill defines lobbying as
“any activity carried out in the course of a business or employment which are undertaken for financial gain and are designed to influence the Government of the United Kingdom.”
That seems absolutely to meet the criteria set out by my hon. Friend when he talked about the role of the finance director, for example.
Thomas Docherty
I am always happy to engage in a lively debate, and this has been quite an informative one. As I say, there is a danger of trying to second-guess two Select Committees, UKPAC, the APPC and Unlock Democracy, all of which have concurred on what is an acceptable definition of lobbying. Nevertheless, there was a genuine question—I apologise for not yet addressing it—about who within an organisation would be expected to be registered. That brings me back to the proposals of the last Minister for the Cabinet Office. We do not know yet what revised proposals may emerge.
The question posed by the APPC for the purpose of its register is “Do you have a public-facing role in which you articulate a policy on behalf of the client?” That applies to companies large and small. When I was an account director and wanted to lobby a Member of Parliament, it would not always be me who telephoned the Member’s office or drafted a letter to the Member, although it would be me who signed the letter. It might be an account manager or an account executive who did the chasing up or issued the request for a meeting, as is the case in many organisations, and because that person would be dealing directly with the Member’s office, according to the APPC’s own definition he or she ought to be registered. The person who came in to clean the office in the morning, or the security officer, would not be performing a public-facing role or trying to influence public policy. I see one or two puzzled faces—
Thomas Docherty
I am always happy to give way, but let me finish my point first.
As I was saying, I see one or two puzzled faces, but everyone who works in the industry, either in a third-party role or in-house, considers the definition that I have given to be reasonable. I would never suggest that Opposition Members know less than those who work in the industry, but I am myself slightly puzzled about why some of them, who I know are phenomenally intelligent, cannot get their heads around that fact.
Mr Nuttall
I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way; he is being very generous. I am not sure whether I heard him correctly. Was he suggesting that someone who rings up a Member of Parliament to make an appointment needs to be registered?
Thomas Docherty
That is the current requirement. The Minister may be able to say more when she responds to the debate, but I think that it is what the Government are proposing as well.
Philip Davies
Just because it is the Government’s proposal does not make it a good one.
Thomas Docherty
That’s the hon. Gentleman’s career over, then.
I am going no further than the Government in this regard. I am arguing—and I suspect that the Minister agrees, although I must wait to hear what she says—that introducing a statutory register that simply replicates the voluntary register that already exists will involve no cost to the taxpayer other than the initial costs of the Bill’s publication and a small amount of Cabinet Office time. Now that the House of Lords proposal has been defeated, the Cabinet Office has a lot more time on its hands. There will be no cost to the taxpayer, because all the fees associated with the running and maintaining of the register and the council will be met by those who work in the industry, as happens at present.
Jacob Rees-Mogg
I think that there is always a cost to the taxpayer in these cases, one way or another, but may I return the hon. Gentleman to the issue of the definition? He has talked about industry standards, the way in which lobbying is defined by existing lobbying groups and so forth, but we are talking about the definition in clause 4, which is the definition that will go into the black letter of the law. It seems to me that the black letter of the law is very wide in this context, and that it would include the finance director and the chief executive. I believe that the definition needs to be tightened up in legislative terms, although it may be more appropriate to deal with that in Committee.
Thomas Docherty
I know that the hon. Gentleman has always been a passionate supporter of debates on the clause 4s of this land. As he suggested, the issue that he has raised could be considered in Committee—and I think that I am seeing a volunteer for the Committee, if he can fit us in with his various other important roles in the House.
Even if we accept that there will be a marginal cost to the taxpayer in connection with the work of the Cabinet Office, surely the benefits of a transparent and cleaned-up lobbying industry will far outweigh it.
Let me now say a little about the composition of the lobbying registration council.
Thomas Docherty
I have started, so I will finish. I have always wanted to say that.
Organisations such as Unlock Democracy have argued that the council’s membership should consist entirely of people who do not work in the industry. That is a reasonable argument, but others advance the counter-argument that the council needs people with a professional understanding of the industry, as is the case with ASPA. At the risk of sounding like a Liberal Democrat—or perhaps more like Tony Blair—I seek a middle way. I believe that there should be a mix, just as there is on the General Medical Council, whose membership includes both people with a background in medicine and people with no association with the profession. Before becoming Chairman of the Standards and Privileges Committee, my right hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley (Mr Barron) served for many years on the GMC’s disciplinary committee in the latter capacity. Getting that balance right is a long-established convention in the professions.
I do not wish to prescribe the precise composition of the council. I therefore propose that Parliament should have an absolute right to determine its composition, but that the Minister should introduce delegated legislation in the form of an order to establish it. I hope that the House will look favourably on that proposal.
Let me now reply to another question. Again, I apologise for not answering it earlier: so many lively questions have been thrown at me today. I was asked what interests companies and individuals would be required to declare. I consider it vital for not just companies but individuals to be registered, for a very simple reason. It is a relatively rare occurrence, but, at present, if an individual who is not registered breaks the code of conduct, that individual can simply move to another company, in which case—if I may use a colloquialism—there will be no comeback. That is why I think that not just companies but the individuals within them should be registered.
Mr Nuttall
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, although this is not the point that I was going to raise when I tried to intervene earlier. The Bill does not actually contain even a draft code of conduct. Could the hon. Gentleman give at least some flavour of the provisions that he would expect the code of conduct to contain?
Thomas Docherty
As ever, the hon. Gentleman has anticipated what I am about to say. The question of the code of conduct goes to the heart of the issue. At present there is, dare I say, some divergence between my starting point and that of the Minister, but she is an entirely reasonable Minister, and I know that she is reflecting on the matter.
The code of conduct is crucial, because without a code of conduct a council registration is entirely pointless. If we do not define an acceptable activity, what is the point of spending time on maintaining a register? Let me say a little about what the code of conduct should include and what it may include, and, perhaps, give the House an example of appalling behaviour on the part of someone who has repeatedly failed to sign up to such a code.
For the same reasons that I articulated about the composition of the council, I have tried today to avoid prescribing the full terms of the code of conduct. Some of it will be self-evident; we all know what is and is not acceptable behaviour. I have referred, however, to the specific example of parliamentary passes, which the hon. Member for Rochford and Southend East touched on earlier. I believe it is entirely legitimate for an individual to own shares in a company. I am glad we have a free market, as I believe in the capitalist system—I am probably doing my cause with my party no good at all by saying such things.
Jacob Rees-Mogg
But the hon. Gentleman is making himself much more popular with the voters of Somerset by doing so.
Thomas Docherty
Oh good; I have always thought that the residents of Somerset are sound people, and their cream is pretty good as well.
I have no problem at all with an individual making a comfortable living by any reasonable means, and the fact that someone holds public office should not prevent them from holding shares in companies. At present there are specific rules about how Ministers must conduct their financial affairs. I recall a meeting I had with a Conservative Minister—regrettably, he has now left the Government. I had not heard of him before, so before meeting him I looked up his register of interests. He was appointed by the current Prime Minister to the House of Lords, and he had a vast number of interests, some of which were fascinating. For example, he was director of “Wisden”, which is a very sound organisation. Although he had a long list of interests, however, we all had confidence that he had placed his shares into a trust. It is entirely appropriate that Members of either House should be able to own shares in any company, provided they have no direct influence on it.
However, I do not think it is acceptable—and I think the public agree on this—for serving Members of either House, in addition to their remuneration for their work at Parliament, to be paid by outside organisations to lobby. There were some very regrettable incidents in the last Parliament and in previous Parliaments. A very small number of Members—I will not say hon. Members, because they clearly were not that—undertook activities of which the House and the country greatly disapproved.
There is currently a significant loophole in the other place, as Members there can receive significant remuneration from outside organisations for lobbying—under the definition of that term as set out, and which is accepted by everyone. I will not name the individuals concerned, but I have given the Minister a couple of examples that have caused some controversy. Under the Bill, serving peers—indeed, any passholder—would not be able to receive remuneration from outside organisations for seeking, for financial gain and in addition to their parliamentary activities, to influence public policy.
Jacob Rees-Mogg
I completely agree with the hon. Gentleman, but I am concerned that there may be a pedantic loophole in clause 3. A Member of Parliament who is married to another Member of either House might be exempt from the requirement set down. Is that the case, or is there to be a hierarchy of passes?
Thomas Docherty
I think we all agree that the hon. Gentleman comes at the top of any hierarchy in this House, and I bow to no one in my admiration for his ability to find pedantic loopholes, but I do not think he has done so on this occasion. I am happy to talk again to the Clerks who drafted the Bill, however—and it is again clear that the hon. Gentleman wants to serve on the Committee. To answer his question, the other person will not have received their pass because they are a spouse; they will have their pass because they are a Member in their own right. I hope that satisfies the hon. Gentleman.
Jacob Rees-Mogg
It does. It is clear that there is a hierarchy of passes. Someone might be entitled to a pass as a spouse, but having a pass as a Member of Parliament trumps that. I am grateful for the clarification.
Thomas Docherty
I shall return to the broader point on the code of conduct. For the same reasons that I have not prescribed the membership of the council, I have tried today to avoid prescribing the full terms of the code of conduct. Other than stating some of the broad principles, I think it is for the Cabinet Office, following a full consultation, to draw up the contents of such a code. However, I would draw the House’s attention to the codes of conduct that do exist in various forms. Some of them are a bit motherhood and apple pie, but they give an indication of the type of behaviour to be covered.
James Duddridge
If this Bill does not complete its stages but the Government introduce a Bill on lobbying, will the hon. Gentleman encourage them to publish the code of conduct alongside the draft Bill and publish the details of the lobbying registration council, so at least we have some idea of the detail? This discussion feels more like a general debate on lobbying than a Second Reading debate, largely because we are not addressing the details, and the devil is in the detail. I therefore ask the hon. Gentleman to give us some further information.
Thomas Docherty
I am surprised that Ministers are reluctant to have a code of conduct, and I hope the Minister responding to this debate will set out why they are reluctant. The hon. Gentleman is right that it would be helpful to have a code of conduct. If it helps provide reassurance, perhaps I should give a guarantee that I would bring forward a draft code of conduct prior to any Committee stage of this Bill.
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on introducing this Bill. Does any other country have the kind of lobbying code of conduct that he wants to see implemented here?
Thomas Docherty
Is the hon. Gentleman asking about codes on a statutory, rather than a voluntary, footing?
Thomas Docherty
There is already a voluntary code for the Association of Professional Political Consultants and for the UK Public Affairs Council, and I understand that a number of countries around the world have codes of conduct. Perhaps it will be helpful if I write to the hon. Gentleman after this short debate, sending him a full list. He raises the valid point that this is not a ground-breaking revolutionary idea.
Thomas Docherty
That is a valid question. I am nervous about answering, however, because I fear we might end up in a cul-de-sac. Under the current European rules, the employees of companies who operate in the UK would be open to sanctions, even if the company is not based in the UK. I hope the hon. Gentleman will forgive me for not getting drawn further into that cul-de-sac today, however.
One of the reasons why I am so passionate about the need for statutory regulation is that voluntary regulation has not worked. Let me give an example of poor behaviour, which I hope will illustrate why it has not worked. One could see it coming a mile off. The vast majority of individuals and organisations involved in public policy lobbying, particularly of Parliament, are credible and honourable, have strongly held views and enjoy the political process. It would be better if there were more people who were interested in the political process.
Let me take as an example the Bill before the House next Tuesday—the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill. There has been a good and lively debate, with representations overwhelmingly made by individuals and organisations in sensible and moderate terms. I know that many colleagues would agree that the language in that debate has been much more appropriate than many of us feared it would be, and the people lobbying on both sides of the debate have conducted themselves in the way that I think we would all want to see. There are, however, some individuals who do not conduct themselves in an appropriate way. I want to talk about one individual and one company of whom I have some knowledge—a company called Invicta Public Affairs and an individual called Mr Mark Cummings.
I first knew Mr Cummings because he was head of the office of the public affairs company where I started working in 2007, so he was technically the chap who hired me to come and work at that company. Mr Cummings left the company about five weeks later under rather a large cloud, partly because it was discovered that he was trying to set up his own business, which is a perfectly legitimate thing for someone to do, and partly because it was becoming apparent that he believed that lobbying should be conducted in a way that perhaps was not appropriate for a company with a long-standing ethos, such as the company I worked for. Let me give the House a couple of examples.
James Duddridge
Out of curiosity, is the hon. Gentleman using his privilege here to say something in the House that he is not able to say outside, or are these comments that he would be equally happy to share outside? I genuinely do not know the case.
Thomas Docherty
Some of the comments are a matter of public record. On some I have kept my council until an appropriate opportunity. Of course, it is always a privilege to speak in the House.
Mr Cummings specialises in planning applications. Anyone who reads Private Eye—which I know many members of the Government are caught reading furtively on the tube on their iPads—will be familiar with the section “Rotten Boroughs”. I was talking to an hon. Friend of mine about the Bill a couple of weeks ago. He recounted that when he was a councillor, he once had a meeting with a developer about a planning application and at the end of the meeting the developer said, “Oh, by the way, here’s something for you to read,” and left an envelope on the desk. Some Members can see where this is going. When the developer had left the room, the councillor turned to his officials, packed the meeting up and opened the envelope to find a number of sheets of paper, each with a common theme of £20.
That would probably be covered by the Bribery Act, although the Minister may wish to clarify that when she responds. That was an isolated case involving a developer, but the problem is still too widespread. I know that many hon. Members have served in local authorities and know that a small number of developers and practitioners of lobbying think such behaviour is acceptable. I want to talk about one such type of behaviour.
Mr Cummings specialises largely but not exclusively in planning and has worked for a number of companies. It is interesting that on his website, invictapa, he does not list who his clients are. This goes back to the lively debate we had earlier on registration. It is important that people are able to see who public affairs lobbyists are working for, and I will come to that in more detail later.
There is a good debate to be had about what happens if someone phones and purports to represent, say, Taylor Wimpey, and you agree to meet them because you are, for example—because he happened to catch my eye—the hon. Member for Carlisle (John Stevenson). If someone phones and says, “My boss works for Taylor Wimpey. He would like to have a meeting with your boss regarding a possible development on the outskirts of Carlisle,” and the researcher says to the hon. Member for Carlisle, “I think it would be interesting to meet this person,” we would all expect that when the hon. Gentleman meets that individual, he is clear whether the person works for Taylor Wimpey directly and therefore can answer questions about Taylor Wimpey more widely, or whether the person is employed as a third-party lobbyist specifically on that project. That is not unreasonable.
John Stevenson
What, then, does one do with people who are, say, planning specialists? That is their profession and they are employed by a business to act on its behalf in connection with planning matters.
Thomas Docherty
The hon. Gentleman raises an interesting point. Let me segue slightly into that. For the benefit of hon. Members, “segway” is a type of transport that is currently fashionable with many younger people who work outside the House. More and more planning companies are setting up public affairs arms to lobby on planning applications. That is particularly true in Scotland under the new Scottish planning policy, where for a development over a certain size—say, 50 houses—a public consultation must be undertaken.
The hon. Gentleman is right to say that if a planning consultancy is directly undertaking the lobbying to influence and shape the policy of the councillors, it should be covered, but if a planner attends a meeting to provide technical answers, that is factual, in the same way as architects and transport consultants would provide technical answers. To return to my example of retailers, if Sainsbury’s brings its head of sourcing along to answer technical questions, nobody outside the House believes that they should be captured by the legislation. I hope that answers the hon. Gentleman’s question.
Let me return to the example of Mr Cummings. There is an assumption that a person who is going to meet someone should be transparent about their status and the purpose of the meeting. So the hon. Member for Carlisle has agreed to meet someone because they purport to be an employee of a company that he would trust. Trust is an important factor. I know that many hon. Members have a principled view that they will not meet third-party lobbyists. I respect that viewpoint; they are entitled to it. It is vital that both in-house and third-party lobbyists are registered, so that others can go on to the company’s website, type in such-and-such a name and see if they work for Taylor Wimpey, in this example, or if they work for a third party. The hon. Gentleman may not have agreed to the meeting if the person was a third-party lobbyist.
Once the hon. Gentleman has agreed to a meeting about a particular planning application—he might serve on a Select Committee and be approached in that role, or he might be a Front Bencher with a particular policy responsibility and a company might approach him and say, “That is within our bivouac. I am keen to meet to make our points to you,”—it is crucial that the hon. Gentleman is comfortable that he knows who that individual actually works for. What should not happen is for the first 45 minutes of the meeting to be spent on the subject matter on which he has agreed to meet, but then he is ambushed for the last 15 minutes because the person says, “By the way, I also happen to represent another completely different company—“Landmines R Us” in my made-up example—and while I’ve got you here, I just want to say a few words about it.”
That is inappropriate behaviour. Under the APPC code, which to an extent is motherhood and apple pie, but none the less is a step in the right direction, that is not allowed. When a meeting is requested, it must be clear whether a consultant works for the company that they purport to represent or is employed as a third party on its behalf, and the meeting should be on the agreed subject matter only. If an hon. Member wishes to raise a further matter, that is for them, but Members should not be ambushed.
When Mr. Cummings is pitching to clients or has a client, he will often play off his contacts. To use a legal analogy, we would expect that in advocating a case the success of those who are fortunate enough to be lawyers—I use my brief loosely—would be based on the strength of the argument, not on whether they know the judge. If a lawyer told a constituent that he should hire him because he knows the judge and has another case in front of the same judge and so can have a bit of a word with him, I think the Minister would probably agree that that would not be acceptable. It is unethical and immoral to both clients falsely to purport to have a level of influence or access to a Member of Parliament or councillor on one case and to use it for another case. Having spoken to colleagues on both sides of the House, it is probably fair to say that if they were aware that people such as Mr Cummings were using their access to raise other issues, they would be horrified.
Some colleagues will recall that the Cabinet Office introduced a Bill earlier in this Session to reform the House of Lords. For a reason that I never fully understood the Government dropped that, regrettably. I spoke in the debate and said that I thought that the Lords Temporal should be removed in a reformed House of Lords.
Thomas Docherty
I am grateful, as ever. Lords Spiritual. The following day, on the chair in my office was a brochure from the National Secular Society. I thought it had come in the post and did not think much about it. It went into the round filing cabinet shortly afterwards. Later my researcher asked if I had seen it and told me that it had been on the desk when he came into work. I should probably confess to the Serjeant at Arms that I had not locked my door overnight. A lobbyist employed by the NSS had been given a pass to the House of Lords by a peer, whom I shall not name. It turns out that he was using his pass to walk up and down the corridors of the House of Commons, dropping off materials to Members. He knocked on my office door two or three times, just dropped by, without any invitation at all, looking to have a word with me because I had spoken in the debate. I think you would probably agree, Mr Speaker, that that is unacceptable. Here was somebody with privileged access to the House in a way that other individuals did not have, and used it to obtain undue influence. I hope that you will look carefully at this issue of peers providing passes to lobbyists outside. I know that you have established a commission of inquiry under my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw), and you will be aware that APPG passes are being considered by the Administration Committee.
There is a broader issue here about Members of the House of Lords handing out passes, ostensibly for research purposes, to outside organisations who then use that access to come down to the House of Commons to hand out materials and try to catch Members of Parliament without appointments.
Jacob Rees-Mogg
I felt slightly guilty when the hon. Gentleman used that example, because it occurred to me that many of us may have done something similar when canvassing, trying to get into blocks of flats that were locked. Perhaps people in glass houses should not throw too many stones.
Thomas Docherty
My house is made of bricks and mortar. Perhaps it is not as fancy as those of other hon. Members. I am not sure how many tenements there are in North East Somerset; probably slightly fewer than there are in central Fife, where the hon. Gentleman was not quite so successful when he stood for election. However, there is an important difference in that any member of the public can buzz on the tenement trade services door—I suspect that the hon. Gentleman does not often do so, although he might for canvassing purposes—but any member of the public cannot simply have access to the corridors of Portcullis House, Star Chamber Court or the Upper Committee Corridor.
Thomas Docherty
I think the hon. Gentleman agrees. The House authorities should discuss that matter with the House of Lords. I hope that satisfies the hon. Member for Rochford and Southend East on why passholders should not undertake paid lobbying.
To return to the example I was describing, it is not just a matter of the unethical behaviour of purporting to represent one client and seeking a meeting with another. We would frown on that and it needs to be stamped out, but in itself it is not Mr Cummings’s worst offence. The House will be aware that particularly in local government there are rules about what councillors can say publicly and privately during a planning application. That is true throughout the United Kingdom and there are good reasons for it, but there are also reasons why a Member on a Select Committee or considering a matter before the House may wish to keep their counsel on a particular matter. From time to time, we receive phone calls from journalists seeking our views—some more than others, I suspect. It is not unnatural to be happy to provide some background briefing to journalists on a non-attributable basis in order to be helpful, and I know that all hon. Members are always helpful to the media.
Mr Cummings employs someone to phone up politicians or councillors, including Members of the Scottish Parliament, because he operates largely in Scotland, and that person claims to be a freelance journalist interested in retail development in Fife. The caller asks for 10 minutes, off the record, to get people’s thoughts on the provision available and whether there are too many Tescos in the area. The politicians do not know that that is a complete pile of cobblers. This is an employee of a lobbying firm who is trying to establish the views of politicians, either during or before the lodging of planning applications for a major supermarket, for some housing developers. The problem is that it is not a crime to impersonate a journalist. I am not sure why someone would want to impersonate a journalist in particular, but that is the kind of behaviour that the House would regard as completely unacceptable. Many developers are not aware that Mr Cummings is using that tactic, but it needs to be brought to the public’s attention. I hope that the Minister will accept that that is why a code of conduct is so important.
Mr Cummings also seems to revel in bullying. He likes to intimidate people who disagree with his clients’ views. He believes that it is perfectly acceptable to plant employees in public meetings, to support his projects. He does the same if there is a rival project. If two supermarkets or house builders are going for the same development in a town, for example, and the council has only a limited allocation to grant, he will put plants into meetings to heckle those who oppose his clients’ schemes or to whip up opposition to other people’s schemes, often on unfounded grounds.
Mr Cummings also has the interesting habit of putting up candidates for community council elections. For the benefit of those who do not have the privilege of living in Scotland, I should say that a community council is a body of statutory consultation that, unlike town and parish councils, has no levying powers, although it will often get small amounts of money from local authorities to spend on flower beds and clean-up-the-village campaigns. It is a statutory consultee on any planning application. Mr Cummings will find supporters early in the planning process and at the next community council election, which is often uncontested, will stand four or five people to get them the jobs of chair, secretary and planning secretary, to make sure that his clients receive favour.
Such behaviour is utterly unacceptable; no one in the House would regard it as appropriate. It needs to be stamped out, which is why a code of conduct to underpin the register is so important. Without that, Mr Cummings would simply register and then carry on with his utterly reprehensible behaviour.
James Duddridge
I hope not to cause the hon. Gentleman too much trouble, but I advise him gently to take a look at the Invicta website and circulate his speech more widely to some of his colleagues, so that they can consider their relationships with the organisation.
Thomas Docherty
That is helpful. I might well take that opportunity and I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for suggesting it. One or two members of the Press Gallery might look at the Official Report as well. I keep my website updated with copies of speeches, and after today I hope to place at least a couple of Second Reading speeches on it. The hon. Gentleman has been helpful, and I will take up his suggestion.
I have detained the House for quite a while.
Thomas Docherty
The hon. Gentleman is, as ever, courteous and kind, although perhaps mischievous on this occasion.
There has been a genuine discussion about the principles of lobbying—what we think is acceptable and unacceptable. Let me close with an anecdote about something that affected me personally. As a parliamentary candidate, I opposed one of Mr Cummings’s planning applications for 2,000 new houses in my constituency, in the north of Dunfermline. I supported the local residents near that wonderful greenfield site, which was open for recreation and well used. I should say that Mr Cummings’s client had every right to bring forward an application, and I will not mention their name; I think they were innocent in this matter.
Two things happened that the Minister might want to reflect on. Mr Cummings was organising workshops for the local residents. He portrayed them as an opportunity for an independent mediator to listen to the residents’ concerns. He said that that would allow him and his client to listen constructively to those concerns and to go away and adjust the plans. He did not tell the residents who turned up for the meeting that the so-called independent facilitator was his live-in girlfriend, who was being paid by Invicta to conduct the so-called independent facilitating meetings that were supposed to allow proper feedback.
Any reasonable person would think that a live-in lover who was being paid to hold the meeting would be unlikely to be entirely independent. That is why a register of every employee involved in lobbying is important.
Mr Nuttall
There is a difference between someone who is paid as a one-off and someone who has a contract of employment. Would someone have to register if they were holding a one-off event?
Thomas Docherty
That goes back to the quarterly register. For the quarter during which the person had been employed, they would be on the register. That is why the register must be updated regularly. It is reasonable for a member of the public who goes to a policy or planning workshop to want to see the employees of the company in question and to expect the relevant website to be updated regularly.
Mr Nuttall
If the register were updated retrospectively, how would that benefit the member of the public? Two months later would be too late.
Thomas Docherty
The issue is about reasonable balance. Most planning and public policy processes take several months. If the register were updated every quarter, people could see the information in retrospect and say to the developer, non-governmental organisation or commercial company, “Hang on a second—you told me this person was an independent facilitator. It turns out they are an employee of the company.”
Let me be clear. What I have described was not a one-off event, but what Mr Cummings was doing with all his controversial proposals; he would bring in the so-called independent facilitator who supposedly had no links to him or his business. He portrayed her as an academic who specialised in bringing together opposing parties. However, the hon. Gentleman has raised a valid point.
Let me give the final part of my example, because I have detained the House for far longer than I had envisaged. With the local community council, I was mounting a campaign against the size of the development. I have worked in property and believe we need more houses, but the sheer size of this development was the issue. My campaign, in July, about nine months before the general election, was quite effective; the local council was coming under pressure to mitigate, at least, the size of the development. One Saturday evening at about half-past 6, I received a text message. I had known Mr Cummings so I had his name in my phone. I am aware that I am not allowed under “Erskine May” to use unparliamentary language even in quotations, so I will not push my luck on this. Those who are vaguely familiar with sectarianism will know of a thing called the “Famine Song”, which is sung by the more illiterate of those who claim to support Rangers football club and says some fairly nasty things about Catholics, suggesting in particular that they may wish to “go home”. I cannot go into the content of the lyrics of the song without breaching “Erskine May”, but it is hugely offensive.
Mr Speaker
Order. May I say to the hon. Gentleman that I think that a charitable person would say that this anecdote is tangentially related to the Bill and an uncharitable person would say that its relationship to the Bill is non-existent? In his presenting this anecdote, I am inclined to err on the side of charity, and I feel sure that he will do so most pithily.
Thomas Docherty
I am most grateful, Mr Speaker. You are, of course, one of the most charitable people one has the privilege of serving with. My apologies for having forgotten to wish you a very happy 50th birthday a couple of weeks ago. Last time I was here on a Friday with a private Member’s Bill, it was your birthday, and it was remiss of me not to take the opportunity to place that on the record—I apologise.
Jacob Rees-Mogg
I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman thinks that Mr Speaker, like Her Majesty, should have two birthdays so that it can be doubly celebrated.
Thomas Docherty
I think that every day is a birthday for us when we are in the company of Mr Speaker, but perhaps I will leave it there before I get sidetracked from what is a genuinely serious point.
When I received the text message I was pretty shocked, because it was incredibly offensive. I texted Mr Cummings back and said, “Why have you sent this to me?”, and he said, “Because you are one.” It was clear to me and to others in the community that the only reason I had received this offensive and, frankly, intimidatory text message was that I was opposing a planning application that he was pressing for. I am not alone in receiving intimidatory behaviour from Mr Cummings, who is well known for bullying and becoming aggressive, particularly towards women opponents of schemes. He sends people into meetings to heckle those who oppose him. The police took the text very seriously, and Mr Cummings was questioned. He denied that he had sent the text, claiming that it must have been sent by somebody else, and the police ultimately did not press charges. However, I am certain, as were local residents and the police, that it was the result of my opposing a planning application that he was promoting and being paid to promote.
If for no other reason that is why we need a code of conduct that says, “You cannot intimidate those in public life as you conduct your affairs.” Lobbying is a legitimate and respectable activity that is an acceptable part of our democratic process, but there must be standards of behaviour. I commend the Bill to the House.
James Duddridge (Rochford and Southend East) (Con)
Thank you, Mr Speaker, for calling me so early in the debate. I was chatting to the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) earlier and he asked me to be brief in my comments. I had intended to be so, but I am now not quite sure what “brief” really means following a speech of an hour and half; however, it had very good content.
I support the concept of a register but oppose this Bill. This is a very complicated issue, and, in all candour, the Bill sidesteps all the important aspects and all the controversy by kicking that into the long grass and leaving the Government to do the hard work on the nature of the lobbying registration council and what should go into a code of conduct, if there is one, as that could form part of a broader piece of legislation. The hon. Gentleman gave examples from elsewhere around the world which, laser-like, address some of the issues that this Bill fails to go into. The devil is truly in the detail, and the Government are right to go slowly. It is better to do the right thing very slowly than do the wrong thing, or the flawed thing, in haste. We have seen that far too often here in the Chamber.
Transparency and open data alongside lobbying are at the heart of the Government’s reform agenda. They are committed to introducing a statutory register of lobbyists. I welcome that commitment, despite there being opposing ideas from other individuals in the House and in Select Committees. I am pleased that the Government have stated that they will regulate lobbying by introducing a statutory register and ensuring greater transparency. Transparency in lobbying is important for building the public’s trust. Where lobbying is not transparent, it can erode public confidence in the political process—a problem we have seen time and again across a range of issues. Politics works better when legislators listen to the opinions not just of constituents but of interested parties such as businesses, charities, and a wide range of other organisations. That is why I intervened on the hon. Gentleman to probe him on the use of the word “commercial”. The world is more complex than a simple division between “commercial” and “non-commercial”, because several organisations fit within neither category.
Thomas Docherty
Perhaps it is my fault for not being clearer. I take the hon. Gentleman’s point, but the reason for using the word “commercial” rather than “financial” is that there is a very specific group of people who lobby on financial matters around the Treasury. Perhaps “professional” is a word that we could consider in more detail in Committee.
James Duddridge
I am happy to serve on the Bill Committee if we get to that stage. I will follow this process whether it be through this Bill or a Government Bill.
I think Members in all parts of the House feel that there is a need to have legislation on this subject, but also to get it right, because putting the wrong legislation in place that does not do the job could be more damaging than not acting at all. I am not sure that either “commercial” or “financial” is right. Probably, looking at international examples, we need to go into specific detail and potentially exempt organisations rather than define them in relation to the Bill. Sometimes when we go backwards and forwards in debating these issues in the Commons, we intuitively think, “No, those people shouldn’t be included”, but struggle to find a definition that excludes them. Instead of struggling with that problem, perhaps a better way forward is to exempt people, in the way the hon. Gentleman suggests lobbying MPs should be exempted.
Lobbying has a clear function. It allows the concerns of businesses, charities and voluntary organisations to be expressed, and it is perfectly acceptable in a modern democracy. It is not fair to say, as some do, that lobbying benefits only the advantaged. The hon. Gentleman referred to a fictional company, “Landmines R Us”, that we could all rally against. Equally, though, there are powerful lobby groups that represent the disadvantaged, Shelter being an obvious example. There are also charities that represent the third world and developing countries, not only helping them directly but lobbying Government for financial gain—not for themselves but for people in those countries. That is perfectly legitimate, and we would not want to exclude them or to put additional costs on to them as a result of this Bill.
There is much debate about the definition. The hon. Gentleman has prayed in aid the consensus among lobbyists on the definition, but I gently say to him that if we took the consensus of lobbyists on all issues we would not need this Bill. Lobbyists historically have got this issue wrong. They have not behaved well, as the hon. Gentleman’s example has ably demonstrated.
Thomas Docherty
The hon. Gentleman would be right if it was purely the lobbyists who want this, but, having met earlier this week representatives from Unlock Democracy—which has been one of the harshest critics, and rightly so, of lobbyists—I know that they are also satisfied with the definition of lobbying.
James Duddridge
I am not desperately familiar with Unlock Democracy, but I remember the name and having a disagreement with it over policy substance, so I suspect that the organisation does not share my views in totality. I am not sure that it is effective to pray in aid that organisation, among others.
James Duddridge
I know that Labour Members have a deep background in socialist as well as Labour history, and I appreciate that some of them also have a deep background in and understanding of communist history, which certainly brings something to the House.
This debate has been well received. I was going to point out, slightly more aggressively, to the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife that Labour did not undertake anything to deal with this problem in 13 years of government, but that is unnecessary because we are building a broad consensus. However, those 13 years, as opposed to the timely debate on this Bill and the proposed Government legislation, put in context the time it has taken this Government to come up with some details, particularly considering that we are mindful of wanting to do the right thing slowly, rather than the wrong thing quickly.
I want to outline the background to the situation. I am sure there are many other examples like Invicta, but I do not want to go into them. Members of Parliament need to be very careful when dealing with such organisations. I was particularly interested to hear about Invicta’s manipulation, for want of a better word, of the political process by putting up candidates. I would encourage the hon. Gentleman to look at whether Government or Opposition Members contribute to the Invicta magazine and consider whether it is appropriate to share that information.
The hon. Gentleman mentioned the Public Administration Committee, which produced an interesting report. It was kicked off in 2007 and published in January 2009, and the fact that it took so long is itself an indication that this is a complex subject. That is an exceptional amount of time to take over a report. I am not suggesting that the Committee was in any way tardy, but that this is a complicated subject and that the Committee took appropriate time to consider it.
The Committee identified five principles for the register of lobbying activity. The first is that it should be mandatory, and the report goes on to describe what that would mean. The report also says that
“it should cover all those outside the public sector”,
and defines exempt organisations, but even there we have to be careful. Under the previous Labour Government, commercial lobbyists were employed by quangos to lobby central Government. This Government feel that that is inappropriate for a financial reason. It may well also be inappropriate for reasons of transparency. If future Governments were to do as the previous Government did and used lobbyists to lobby other parts of the Government, surely they should be defined as being within rather than outside the public sector, so I disagree with the Committee in that respect, although the principle of defining people outside the public sector is a good one.
The Committee’s idea that the register
“should be managed and enforced by a body independent of both Government and lobbyists”
is also a good one. I reel with discomfort at the idea that the body should involve only lobbyists. It is important for corporate structure and governance to involve a wide range of people. I would encourage the body to include people not only from outside, but from within government, by which I mean from the civil service or, perhaps, the House of Commons, to give their perspective. One of the anecdotes used by the hon. Gentleman was that of someone roaming the corridors with a pass for one thing but lobbying on another. I do not think that anyone outside this place would envisage that type of problem, even if it is not too dissimilar from gaining entry to a tenement block. I think that a Member of Parliament, alongside a policy-related civil servant, would add an awful lot of value. When we set up these rules, we need to think about how a lobbyist or organisation would try to get round them. We have examples of organisations that have tried to get round the current best practices and rules and regulations.
The Committee also suggested that the register should include
“information of genuine potential value to the general public”.
Who should define that? I believe in open government and in the production of as much information as possible. Often, from the open-source viewpoint, the most valuable information produced is that whose value the Government have no idea about. It is for people outside this place and outside lobbying bodies to decide. I would be inclined to make the production of information as large as possible.
Earlier we debated who should be registered—whether it should be the body corporate or individuals. I was not convinced by the argument deployed by the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife that things have been sufficiently thought through. The examples of the finance director or board lobbying at a more senior level and a secretary or someone who had non-contact time but who worked in public affairs were not considered adequately. The hon. Gentleman spoke of some Members of Parliament accepting meetings with organisations directly, rather than lobbyists. I must admit, however, that when I go through my invites I am much more inclined to meet someone with a solid business title, such as a chief executive, a finance director or a regional head of a business, than someone whose title relates to public affairs or corporate affairs. Inadvertently, I suppose I am pulling those individuals into the lobbying sphere. I would worry if this Bill progressed and the code of conduct remained as defined by the hon. Gentleman. That would make it less likely for those chief executives and business leaders to be prepared to lobby me, because they would need the protection of having to go on the register, which would be very costly. They could not be fleet of foot. I had a meeting arranged with a chief executive earlier this week to discuss an issue. They wanted to lobby me and I wanted to hear about their industry, but their plane was delayed. They are based overseas and, according to the method that has been described, could not have sent someone else if they had not been on the register.
I am also unsure about individual registration—giving a “get out of jail free” card to some of the senior management. If someone lower down the organisation who is not registered inadvertently or purposefully lobbies, who is responsible? Is it the most senior person in the company who is on the register? Is it the company’s chief executive? These are not insurmountable problems; they can be overcome, but there are a few issues with the Bill.
The Public Administration Committee also proposed that certain information would need to be provided by lobbyists and by the target of their lobbying, in order to abide by the principles. The information includes
“the names of the individuals carrying out lobbying activity and of any organisation employing or hiring them”.
When I looked at the job titles at a couple of lobbying organisations, I found them a little confusing. I understand the titles “account director” and “senior manager”, but a lot of organisations are proud to hire “consultants”. I am not sure whether that is because they do not have the critical mass required or because they bring in additional people for certain clients. However, it is essential that we look at the consultants who work through such organisations. That is particularly relevant to the planning example.
I am not convinced that publication every three months is sufficient, because a lot can happen in three months. From my experience of lobbying, although an issue may be long standing for those in the relevant industry, it can crop up quite quickly. For example, the House of Commons can have an Opposition day debate that is announced only 48 hours in advance. We will receive a plethora of publications, some of which are produced not by full-time employees, but by a so-called consultant—somebody on the lobby firm’s books—whom they phone up. Such consultants are often people who are well connected to this place and who could lever that relationship for the most nefarious of purposes.
Thomas Docherty
I am listening to the hon. Gentleman attentively and he is making a lot of valid points. Does he agree that when Members of this House receive e-mails, for example from Mr Joe Bloggs, it would be appropriate for the person who sends them to be absolutely clear about who he is, whom he is representing and which company he works for? I am sure that the hon. Gentleman and you, Mr Speaker, have noticed that such details are often misleading at the moment.
James Duddridge
The hon. Gentleman’s suggestion is tempting. However, the detail might make it problematic. I would not want to do anything that put barriers between me and my constituents. Most of my constituents are good and proper people who are not trying to lobby me for commercial gain. I would not want to put barriers in their way by setting a higher test in order to guard against the activities of commercial organisations.
James Duddridge
I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, particularly if he has a good way of overcoming that. Is there a way of giving greater protection, without making it harder for constituents to come to me? They might not want to declare who their employer is.
Thomas Docherty
Let me explain briefly what I mean. If a member of the APPC sends an e-mail on behalf of one of their clients, they have to put on the e-mail not only the client’s name, but their name, job title and company. Although most of us do not take the time to read the bottom of the e-mail, at least the information is there. It will say something like, “Timothy Bell, Weber Shandwick, Account Director” and give the address. In that way, Members are not confused or misled about whom the correspondence comes from.
James Duddridge
I accept that absolutely in relation to pure lobbying firms. However, I have been lobbied by individual constituents, but have been a little suspicious about whether their letters were written by an individual or an organisation because of the level of complexity and technical detail. On some occasions, the same individual has written with a level of detail and complexity on a number of issues. When I have sat down with those constituents, it has turned out that they have been encouraged to write by their employer or their employer’s organisation. We must differentiate between professional lobbyists and such people who represent an organisation and want to lobby us. I would accept the hon. Gentleman’s suggestion if we could do it in a way that did not disadvantage our constituents.
James Duddridge
My hon. Friend makes a good point. However, the promoter of the Bill was referring to systematic abuse. He was not talking about somebody saying, “While I’m here, can we discuss X or Y, rather than arrange a second meeting?” He was talking about the sole purpose of the original meeting being to gain entry into the MP’s office to raise an issue that they had not agreed to discuss.
I prepare quite heavily for meetings with constituents or lobbying organisations, because I do not want to be bamboozled by special interests, but want to be sure that I have an independent view on the subject. If the meeting is hijacked, there is no time for such preparation or to give a good view. When I have meetings, I want to be able to summarise the matter and take a view, rather than saying, “Let me go away and think about it.”
Thomas Docherty
I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s courtesy. He and the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) are both courteous individuals, but such courtesy is part of the problem and many Members of the House might feel uncomfortable in being as robust as they have suggested that they would be. Some might feel trapped into the last 10 or 15 minutes of a meeting because they would not want to say—to use a colloquialism—“sling your hook!” That is the point; people should not feel trapped or ambushed.
James Duddridge
With the House’s permission, I will accept that comment and move on. This is a broad Bill, and having criticised the House for moving to a general debate, I want to focus specifically on the Bill.
The proposed register does not intend to capture or deter any range of activities essential to a vibrant democracy. I fear, however, that too much bureaucracy will lead people not to come forward to discuss issues with Members of Parliament. In fact, some of the most useful lobbying is very informal. For example, if an issue is raised in the House about the health service, I might be more likely to have a chat to my local GP or those at the local primary health trust, because I know their capabilities and biases and can filter those as appropriate, than to go to a lobby organisation directly. Some of the most effective lobbying will be totally off the register and therefore outside the remit under discussion.
The costs of the consultation have been mentioned and I am deeply concerned about those costs and their impacts. Just because something is of moderate cost to the Cabinet Office, it should not be brushed aside as insignificant. There is a direct cost to the Government that must be funded by the taxpayer, and even more importantly I am concerned about the cost to business. That is not because I am particularly pro-business for the sake of it, but businesses employ people and have consumers. At the end of the day, business cost must be transferred in some way, shape or form, either to shareholders—that is our pension fund and nation’s prosperity—or to consumers. The price of a packet of bourbon biscuits will go up at Asda, however marginally.
We must remember that lobbyists are business people as well. We have said that lobbying is a legitimate activity, but the provisions represent a big barrier to entry. A small business owner who, for argument’s sake, acts in a consultancy in a particular sector, might find that they are increasingly asked for public relations advice by the press. That might not be their core competence, although they might do a bit of it. Where does the barrier between public relations and public affairs end and start? I want people who run small businesses to be able to evolve their business over time. We need some type of de minimis threshold for a business to be allowed to operate within a public affairs arena.
James Duddridge
I will not be tempted down that line, because I suspect I take a different view in relation to MEPs. It would be an interesting but fruitless tangent to this debate.
It is shocking that people can get passes as staff of all-party groups. If I was a chair or senior officer of an all-party group and had a spare pass—we are allocated three or four passes—and, in my name and on my authority, granted it to an individual working for an all-party group, that would be fine. I would be taking personal responsibility for their behaviour on the estate; such people would be representatives of parliamentarians. It is wrong, however, that paid lobbyists have passes not signed off by an MP. Our passes are rationed, as we can issue only three or four, so I have to decide, for instance, whether to issue one to my caseworker who occasionally comes up from Southend. As well as rationing, there must be a proper analysis of what passholders are doing here.
On 2 January, The Times published an interesting investigation into the funding of all-party groups that again raised the issue of defining lobbying. In some cases, organisations have good reasons for funding all-party groups; for instance, they might want a genuine debate on their broad subject area. I am sure, however, that we have all felt uncomfortable about the dominance of funding in certain all-party groups or about what the secretariat was doing—who is it representing, is it genuinely representing the Lords and MPs or the people who pay the secretariat?
Having said that, it would be inappropriate to throw out all the secretariats and financial relationships. For instance, I spend a lot of time on African issues, many of which cannot easily be funded by commercial organisations or the countries themselves, and in those cases it is entirely appropriate to have academic institutions funding secretariats. I am less comfortable, however, with big businesses funding such arrangements. The Times thought that at least a dozen all-party groups had received funding or benefits from outside organisations in the past 12 months, with the amounts involved totalling more than £1 million a year.
I think that Members might be sleepwalking towards potential problems. A couple of times, I have been asked to sign up to an all-party group of perhaps tangential interest to me or my constituency. On those occasions, I have lent my name to the group with the intention of attending perhaps only one or two meetings a year, but these groups meet regularly and churn out reports that are perceived to carry the authority of the House of Commons. Quite often in the morning, Radio 4 will mention a report from the House of Commons. Sometimes, it refers to a Select Committee report, but sometimes I think, “That’s a little odd; the Committee wouldn’t have said that,” and it turns out to be an all-party group funded by outside support. Given our limited resources for members of staff, it is often only with outside support that we can produce an extensive paper.
I would therefore like the Bill to take account of all-party groups. I have raised the issue of blue passes and have tabled a few probing written questions about the number of people involved.
Thomas Docherty
I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s comments. May I propose, because he is making some valid observations, that he write to the PAC, which, as I said, will shortly be examining the issue of passes and resources provided by the House to all-party groups?
James Duddridge
I will certainly discuss it with the PAC, but I think it odd when MPs give evidence to other MPs; there are more eloquent ways to do it than through formal evidence. If a written submission would be helpful, however, I would be more than happy to make one.
James Duddridge
I now understand the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) was making. My hon. Friends are absolutely right: under this Bill, there is nothing to compel an organisation from the United Kingdom—or, indeed, anywhere else—that lobbies the European Parliament. I wonder whether, because of the nature of the European Parliament’s rules, there are any EU regulations about that. Logically, I expect that we would be forced by some directive to push it through by the back door; otherwise, if each country did not have to abide by it, such a register would be pretty meaningless.
Thomas Docherty
I think we are all fascinated by the hon. Gentleman’s contribution, but I suspect that we are in danger of losing track of time. Has he had a chance to look at the Order Paper? If so, has he seen that we might, quite inadvertently, accidentally talk out a subsequent Bill for which there is a great deal of public support?
James Duddridge
I fully understand the hon. Gentleman’s point. I can assure him unequivocally that I will not speak for anywhere near as long as he did. It is quite common in this place to have certain individuals—I shall not name them—shamelessly talking Bills out, but never before have I seen an hon. Member trying to talk out his own Bill. I ask him to intervene on me again if I get anywhere close to the length of his speech.
I will try to be brief, but there are a number of countries with really interesting examples. Just before I leave the subject of European Union, I want to point out that it has gone for a wide scope, yet it leaves out certain organisations, one category of which is described as “social partners”. I was not quite sure what social partners were, particularly in the light of the debate that we will have next Tuesday, but it turns out that they include trade unions and trade associations, both of which I would like to see included in the register. So if four or five companies in, say, the concrete industry had their own lobbying organisations, those organisations would have to be on the register, but if they spent the same money employing a trade association to do the same job, that trade association would not have to be on the register. That is absolutely bonkers, but it illustrates how the European Parliament has done what I fear the Bill might do, and what the Government might be tempted to do. I fear that, in the interest of trying to do the right thing, they might actually cause a lot more confusion and complexity. I could go on about the specific information requirements. An annual information update is required, yet I get the feeling that hon. Members think that a quarterly update is insufficient.
Turning to the regulations in the United States, I am amazed by their detail and complexity. They make the EU look almost lightweight in comparison.
Mr Nuttall
I start from the position that we jumped into this debate this morning and overlooked whether we needed a register in the first place. It seemed to be accepted from the moment that the debate started nearly three hours ago that it was all about how one defines a lobbyist and lobbying, whereas I want to start with what is the problem. The Bill’s promoter cited one or two specific instances that he was concerned about, but as always I would argue that one or two cases make bad law. We should not pick on one or two instances, which seemed to border on criminal behaviour, to claim that the solution is to introduce a register for lobbyists. Just as we cannot rid society of theft or burglary by making them criminal offences, if there is a problem with lobbying and lobbyists the answer is not to provide yet more regulation. It is almost as though legislators look around society to find a group that is not legislated for and then come up with a scheme to bring them under the control of the legislature.
On Friday mornings, Back-Bench Government Members will often try to pilot through a Government handout Bill; it is somewhat more surprising to see an Opposition Member promoting a Bill that is broadly in line with the coalition programme for government, although I accept that there are differences.
Mr Nuttall
As ever, the hon. Gentleman is trying to be helpful to the Government.
Mr Nuttall
My hon. Friend makes a good point. It is probably common ground among Members on both sides of the House and from all parties that when one arrives in this place one soon begins to realise that the real power lies with the civil service. In fact, it is often the civil servants the lobbyists want to see, because they know that influencing the thinking of the civil service can be far more effective than, for example, influencing what a Back-Bench Member of this House may think.
I cannot see what would be the benefit to society of having a register of lobbyists. I can see lots of downsides, but I cannot see its purpose. Would it really be the case that every time somebody rang up to make an appointment with a Member, they, or their staff, would bother to consult it? It just would not happen, and even if it did, I cannot see what the purpose would be. Members of the lobbying profession are often, by definition, in the business of promoting themselves. Their websites often contain huge lists of their clients; it is not as though they are trying to hide on whose behalf they are acting. When somebody rings up, one knows straight away, or can quickly find out by asking one or two questions, on whose behalf they are calling. I am not confident that there would be any real use in having such a register.
That brings me on to the question of how the register would be arranged and organised and, more importantly, who would keep it. The Bill suggests that a new organisation, the lobbying registration council—not a new quango but a new industry-funded body—would be responsible for maintaining and supervising the register and keeping it up to date. However, we have no idea of what particulars would be entered on it. It is a blank canvas. Obviously, there would be the name and address of the company or individual and details of their clients, but how long would it be before someone said, “Well, frankly, that’s not much use”? It would be the thin end of the wedge. I suspect that those who thought that it was a good idea to have a register would soon be saying, “What we really want is to know who these lobbyists have met, and we want that recorded on the register. We want to know for how long they met a given individual, where they met, what was the purpose of the meeting, and what was its outcome.” Before long, what started off as a simple register of names, addresses and lists of clients would develop into an enormous database of facts and figures and lists of meetings. It would become a bureaucratic nightmare for those involved in the lobbying industry.
How will my constituents benefit from all that regulation and registration? When I look at things, I always ask, “How will my constituents benefit from this?” I can see that those who may want to engage in the lobbying industry will suffer as a result of the Bill, but I fail to see how my constituents would benefit in any meaningful way from a register of lobbyists.
We do not know what all this will cost. Again, it has been glossed over. We have heard about and debated lots of other things, but we have no idea about that crucial question. One of the first things that a lobbyist would ask is, “How much will this cost?” We have no idea.
Thomas Docherty
I know that the hon. Gentleman does not plan to detain the House, so it might be helpful if I point out to him that the current cost of the APPC register is only £200 to £300 per individual. I hope that that gives him an idea of the cost.
Mr Nuttall
That is a useful contribution, but the cost of £200 to £300 is for an entirely different register from that which the Bill proposes, which is statutorily based. The lobbying registration council will be funded by those who will pay to be on the register, so in order to determine the cost of registration we have to look at the LRC itself, which, as I have said, is a blank canvas.
Mr Nuttall
My hon. Friend makes a very good point. It probably will have to register on its own register, because I am sure that before long it will want greater powers and to extend its reach into new areas. We have already come across a possible new area this morning. As has been pointed out, one of the gaps in the Bill is that it does not provide for the registration of those who want to lobby the European Parliament. The council may well lobby the Government to amend the legislation to cover that area. My hon. Friend is right that, on that basis, it would have to be on its own register.
We do not know how many members will be on the council. Will it be two or three, or thirty or forty? How representative will it be? Will it have to have members from every region of the country? Will it have to have members from different lobbying organisations?
Thomas Docherty
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way again, because I know that he is trying to move towards a conclusion. I remind him that all those matters will rightly be subject to parliamentary scrutiny. I am sure that he has even more confidence in his Ministers than I do.
Mr Nuttall
I have every confidence in our Ministers. I hope that, as a result of this debate, the Government will continue to worry about the path that they have sent themselves down with the consultation. It is clear from the consultation that it is easy to say, “Let’s have a register of lobbyists,” but that when one looks at the detail, the problems arise. The devil is in the detail.
As I have said, I fail to see how a register of lobbyists would help anybody. That is what we should be thinking about. How will a register help? How will it solve any of the so-called problems? I fail to see that there are problems. I am not bothered about them, but perhaps other people are. In a healthy democracy, everybody lobbies their MP. I am sure that every MP has the same experience at the weekend. I will be going down the street and somebody will tap me on the shoulder and say, “I know it’s the weekend, but I would like to have a quick word with you about blah-de-blah-de-blah.” They want to explain their point of view and to influence me. That is the nature of representative democracy in this country; it happens every day of the week. Some people do it because they are interested, and others do it for reward. I fail to see, however, how having a register will help to solve those problems in any way, shape or form.
Not only do we not know how many members will be on this lobbying registration council, it is not clear who will appoint them. How will they be appointed? Will they be appointed by the Government? Indeed, will they be appointed at all? Will they be elected? Will all members of the lobbying organisation, who have to pay for it, get to elect its members? Who will be eligible to serve on that august body? Will they need a qualification to be a member of the lobbying registration council?
This is the thin end of the wedge and I have seen no evidence this morning to convince me that a register is a good or sensible idea that will benefit my constituents in any way. A likely consequence of the Bill is that, just as we saw last week with the Offshore Gambling Bill, something that ostensibly starts out as a good idea will rapidly turn into the opposite of that. Given that the Act would apply only to England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, we may find that lobbying organisations faced with enormous regulation and fees will move offshore. They will say, “I’m not staying here and paying vast fees of thousands and thousands of pounds each year; I will move.” They will move offshore, either to Gibraltar or indeed outside the European Union altogether.
The promoter of the Bill mentioned that the fees might be £200 or £300, but it is not clear whether that will be standardised. Will the fee be the same for an individual as for a huge conglomerate or large multinational company with a huge client base? I suspect that the one-man band will pay one fee, and that the huge multinational will pay another—many thousands of pounds. For that reason, those multinationals might be inclined to think, “If we are faced with these fees and all that bureaucracy, we will move offshore.”
Thomas Docherty
I am conscious that the hon. Gentleman is trying to conclude his remarks. The point he raises is a matter for delegated legislation. The principle is that the fee will be based on the number of people who are signed up, but I urge the hon. Gentleman to look at the clauses that state that it will be a matter for delegated legislation.
Mr Nuttall
I am grateful for that clarification, but the fee is something else that we simply do not know about. We are being asked to take it on trust. We do not know about it; it is a blank canvas and will be dealt with in the future. I am not satisfied by the principle behind the Bill, and even if I were I think it is a Trojan horse. Even if one accepts that it is sensible to have such a register—which I do not—this Bill would be the thin end of the wedge. Before long, what started off as a fairly simple exercise would soon grow like Topsy into expensive, unnecessary bureaucracy that would put British jobs at risk. For that reason, and many others, I oppose the Bill and urge Members of all parties to reject its Second Reading.
Philip Davies
As ever, Mr Deputy Speaker, you are quite right. I was getting carried away with myself—the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife did not help when he invited me to consider the prospect of a Lib Dem Government, which does not even bear thinking about. I will move on, for the sake of my own sanity more than anything else.
The idea that there will be a great deal of parliamentary scrutiny of the terms of the register and the code of conduct is not one that I recognise from my reading of the Bill. Also, I asked earlier who would enforce the criminal offences that the Bill creates. There will no doubt be all sorts of vexatious complaints from people who do not like a particular industry, from people who have been lobbying someone about something, and counter-organisations that do not like a particular industry will put in vexatious complaints here and there. People will be contacting their local police and crime commissioner, their local chief superintendent and their chief constable, and putting pressure on them to investigate this or that case. The police’s resources are stretched enough as it is. I have been opposed to the reductions to the police budget that have taken place over the past few years. Surely at a time when the police budget is going down, the last thing they need is more of these kinds of offences to investigate, when there is much more bread-and-butter crime to be dealt with.
Then we have to consider the Crown Prosecution Service. What will be the chances of getting a conviction for such offences? We all know what the CPS is like. It is very reluctant to take a case to court unless there is a cast-iron guaranteed certainty of a conviction. There will be all sorts of complaints relating to whether the code of conduct has been breached, for example, and it is hard to imagine the CPS taking anyone to court, no matter how much time the police have spent investigating a case.
The whole thing is a complete dog’s breakfast, and that is before we even come to the definition of lobbying in clause 4. Clauses 1 to 3 were bad enough, but clause 4 is the worst clause of all. We have had an interesting debate on the definition of lobbying. There is so much to say on that, and so little time in which to say it. I do not intend to speak at length. As you will know better than anyone, Mr Deputy Speaker, I am always anxious to proceed at a pace on a Friday so that we can get on to the next piece of legislation, and I do not intend to do anything different today. I will make a few remarks about the definition of lobbying, but I just want to say to the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife that I hope his second Bill, which I trust we will get on to in the not-too-distant future, is better than his first one. The first one has not been a good start.
Clause 4 gives the definition of lobbying as
“any activity carried out in the course of a business or employment which are undertaken for financial gain and are designed to influence the Government of the United Kingdom, Parliament, any local authority in England or any member or employee of any of those bodies in formulating its official policy.”
We could spend hours talking about clause 4, because it contains all sorts of loopholes, flaws and omissions. The whole point of anybody approaching a Member of Parliament, on any basis, is to lobby them. It might be to lobby them because the person believes strongly in something, perhaps in their local community, or to lobby them for financial gain. It tends to be one or the other. Someone might come to see me because they want to reduce the amount that they owe to the Child Support Agency, for example. That is a perfectly legitimate thing to come and see an MP about. I cannot always sort such things out, but I will always do my best for my constituents. They are lobbying me for financial gain, of course they are—it is a perfectly legitimate, respectable thing to do.
The hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife seems to be trying to distinguish between different types of financial gain. From his definition in the Bill, he seems to be saying that some kinds of lobbying for financial gain are fine, while other kinds are not so fine and need to have something done about them.
Thomas Docherty
I am nervous about intervening on the hon. Gentleman and prolonging what has been a genuinely good discussion. Briefly, I am drawing a distinction between someone who is remunerated for carrying out the activity of trying to influence, and someone who receives a financial reward if they are successful. The former is lobbying; the latter is not.
Philip Davies
The hon. Gentleman tries to concoct some distinction through his Bill’s definition, but I do not accept the distinction he is trying to draw. For me, lobbying is what people do to Members of Parliament for whatever particular reason they have. It is perfectly legitimate, and I see no point in drawing a distinction between different types of lobbying—as if commercial lobbying is bad and any other kind of lobbying is good. All lobbying is good, and Members of Parliament should be open to all sorts of lobbying. They can take anybody’s self-interest into account when they are listening to the lobbying. I am sure we will all have said at some time, “Well, of course, you would say that, wouldn’t you, given the situation you are in.” We are all capable of doing that.
When I read the Bill, I presumed that it was all about protecting the public and giving them more confidence in the system. I do not think that that would be a consequence, but I can at least see the motivation. From what the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife said in his opening speech, however, the Bill seemed to be much more about protecting us from commercial lobbyists so that we do not get hijacked at a constituency surgery or something like that. I do not need protecting. I can protect myself and look after myself. If I do not want to listen to somebody’s argument, I will tell them I am not interested in what they are saying. I am perfectly capable of doing that without the help of the hon. Gentleman and his Bill. Frankly, if any Member is not capable of doing that, they should perhaps consider whether they are in the right profession. We certainly do need legislation to protect Members from people coming to see them and trying to force an issue down their throat. I would hope that we are all perfectly capable of dealing with that.
In conclusion, the Bill is unnecessary. I disagree with it in principle; I think it is going completely down the wrong lines. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North, even if I thought this was a good thing in principle, I would remain of the view that the Bill was a very bad attempt to act on it.
Miss Smith
That takes me to exactly the points to which I want to return. As I have said, the Government are committed to the establishment of a statutory register of lobbyists, which we think would be an important step towards making politics more transparent. I certainly think it important to open up politics and make it more accessible to everyone. I agree with my hon. Friend that lobbying has an important function in politics, namely the putting forward of legitimate views when they are held. That helps in the development of better legislation. However, we need to address the question that he raises: what is the gap that needs to be filled in this case?
In our consultation on introducing a statutory register of lobbyists, various parties, organisations, individuals and businesses told us what the register should look like and what the gap is. That information is helping the Government reach conclusions on some very tricky questions, such as how we should define “lobbyist” and “lobbying”, what sort of information should be held on the register, and what penalties should be imposed on those who do not register. The hon. Gentleman has made various suggestions, which I want to take into account alongside those received from the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee.
Although the Government have made strides in increasing the transparency of what we do, thus making it easier for the public to hold politicians and public bodies to account, there is one important gap. Our consultation document states that
“under the current system, when Ministers meet lobbying firms it is not transparent on whose behalf they are lobbying”,
and that is the gap we should address through this sort of legislation.
The Government consultation received a large response, showing just how important the issue is to the public and why we are working so hard to get our proposals right. Following the consultation, we are currently taking stock. The evidence from the consultation and the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee report will allow us to develop the statutory register in a way that increases transparency while ensuring equal treatment of all parties, and without placing disproportionate burdens on those affected.
The Government are committed to introducing a statutory register of lobbyists.
Thomas Docherty
Does the Minister intend to publish the revised proposals before the House rises at the end of the Session or, failing that, before the summer recess?
Miss Smith
As I have said, we are currently taking stock. It is important to take time to get these proposals right. This remains a coalition commitment, and I look forward to working with the hon. Gentleman to move it forward.
Thomas Docherty
I thank all Members on both sides of the House for contributing to what has been a constructive and useful debate. The hon. Members for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) and for Shipley (Philip Davies) raised the issue of meetings. I find myself in full agreement with the Minister. We already have a ministerial quarterly statement—although I tried to check when it was last updated, and she might like to press her civil servants, to ensure that happens as frequently as intended. This Bill would not increase bureaucracy for Members of either House.
Questions were raised about the wider bureaucracy that might be involved. Earlier, I did not dwell on the General Medical Council system. As the hon. Member for Bury North knows, it was established under the Medical Act 1858. The current fee is the princely sum of £390, and the system has all the functions to which we have alluded. I hope that that reassures him and the hon. Member for Shipley as to the sums involved.
This debate has not gone on for as long as the Turks and Caicos election count, for which we are all grateful. As I am not a Liberal Democrat politician, I always believe in sticking to my promises, and I made a promise about withdrawing the Bill if the Minister was sufficiently eloquent. She has been eloquent about her intention to bring forward proposals in the very near future and about her promise to work with me and others on that. I am therefore satisfied that we are making progress on this issue, and I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
Bill withdrawn.
Algeria
Thomas Docherty Excerpts(11 years, 10 months ago)
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The Prime Minister
Obviously BP has a huge responsibility because many of these people are its employees, and I know that it takes that very seriously. On the Government side, the main point of access is the police liaison teams, who do a fantastic job in very difficult circumstances. As others have said, one of the key concerns and considerations is how to keep them up to date with the news as it is coming in while not getting ahead of what they are being told. That is never easy to get right, and I will make sure that we always try to learn the lessons if we have not done so.
Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)
I am sure that the whole House welcomes the Prime Minister’s new focus on cyber-security and other defence interests, but will he confirm whether these investments will be met from existing budgets or he is proposing new money for the Ministry of Defence?
The Prime Minister
I am afraid that there is not new money available to the MOD. However, the decision we made in the strategic defence and security review was for hundreds of millions of pounds to be spent on cyber-security, and that was new money—investment that was not taking place previously. Also, the priority given to things such as special forces and some key intelligence assets was, in effect, new investment to make sure that our forces and our national security are correctly aligned with the threats that we face.
Algeria
Thomas Docherty Excerpts(11 years, 10 months ago)
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The Prime Minister
I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for her comments. Our thoughts should be with the families. They will have had a truly dreadful few days as they think about their loved ones. I reiterate what I said: all of them have police liaison teams attached to them and they should be able to receive the latest information. I completely understand that the Government always have to strike a balance between making any comment about these events as they continue, and the dangers of doing so. There is so much other information around from other countries and other Governments that it is important to try to give a consistent and clear message about what is happening, the Government’s priorities and what we are doing to help in this very difficult situation.
Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)
Shortly before Christmas, the Chief of the Defence Staff proposed that one of the new infantry brigades be formally assigned to do partnership work with the Gulf and Jordanian armies. Will the Prime Minister consider extending that formalised arrangement under Force 2020 to north Africa?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman makes an excellent suggestion. The Chief of the Defence Staff has been looking at whether there is more we can do in terms of military exercises, operations and co-operation with the countries of west Africa. Clearly, with the Mali situation it is key that Ghanaians, Nigeriens, Nigerians and others bring forward troops to help in that country. We should be thinking about what we can do to assist in that process. The strength of having regular strategic defence and security reviews is that we can ask where the threats are coming from and where we can make the greatest difference with the talented and professional armed forces we have. Those are exactly the sort of questions we should be asking.
Leveson Inquiry
Thomas Docherty Excerpts(11 years, 12 months ago)
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The Prime Minister
I hope everyone will have an open mind as they read this report and the conclusions about some of the terrible things that have happened in the press, but above all what I want editors to do is engage properly with what Leveson has said needs to happen to the regulatory system. As I say, there is no need to wait for long conversations about that. He sets out what is wrong with Hunt-Black and what needs to be put in place. That work should start straight away.
Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)
The Opposition have called for genuine cross-party discussions. I note that the Secretary of State for Education does not appear to be in his seat, so will the Prime Minister confirm that there will be no smearing of Lord Leveson while those talks are taking place?
Leveson Inquiry
Thomas Docherty Excerpts(11 years, 12 months ago)
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The Deputy Prime Minister
My eye was caught by a quote from John Major, who said in his evidence to Lord Justice Leveson’s inquiry:
“I think on this occasion it’s the politicians who are in the last-chance saloon.”
This is a test not just for the press, but this place. It is a test for us all to try to find a cross-party approach. That is best done on a cross-party basis, rather than becoming the subject of party political point scoring. On the central assertion, I think that Lord Justice Leveson’s report makes the case well for why legislation is necessary to administer his system, although as I keep stressing I do not know exactly what the legislation would look like. It is very important to get the details, as well as the principle, right.
Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)
I commend the Deputy Prime Minister for his measured and thoughtful statement and how he has dealt with questions this afternoon. Given the two statements, will he clarify whether he intends to adopt the same principle on this issue as on the boundary proposals—that when he disagrees with his Conservative colleagues, Liberal Democrat Ministers will, on a point of principle, go through the Lobby with us when they agree with us?
The Deputy Prime Minister
To be fair, this is not driven by being in agreement with the Opposition.
I am not going to repeat what I have said in the House about boundaries, but I accept, of course, that in coalition government there will be cases—this is one instance—where it is perfectly fair, normal and transparent to the public and the House to say, in a level-headed way, “Look, these are the differences of view.” Coalition does not mean homogenised government where the differences that naturally exist between parties are somehow eliminated.
House of Lords Reform Bill
Thomas Docherty Excerpts(12 years, 4 months ago)
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The Deputy Prime Minister
Following that logic, the commitment to a referendum on House of Lords reform should have been included in the party manifestos.
The Deputy Prime Minister
I know, but it was not in the manifestos of two of the three main parties.
The second point that I make to the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing), who was a distinguished member of the Joint Committee, is that although she and I do not agree on this matter, I hope she does agree that the Government listened meticulously to the conclusions of the Joint Committee, which supported the main tenets of the Bill on a cross-party basis and was chaired by a Member of the other place who was not from either of the coalition parties. That shows how consensual we have been in working up our ideas.
I will move on from the myths that have abounded to some of the fears about the Bill, many of which, I accept, have been expressed in good faith. Broadly, there is a worry that we risk upsetting a delicate constitutional balance, creating a second Chamber that is too assertive and therefore a threat to this place, as was alluded to earlier. I am not surprised by that. It is part of a—
Oral Answers to Questions
Thomas Docherty Excerpts(12 years, 11 months ago)
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The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes a good point, which is perhaps why the leader of the Labour party is struggling so much to tell us what his view is on the proposed treaty. On one hand he wants to join the euro, if he is Prime Minister for long enough, and on the other hand he wants to sign a treaty—[Interruption.] That is rubbish? He does not want to be Prime Minister for long enough! He wants to join the euro, he wants a deal with very tough budget deficit limits, and he wants to increase spending, borrowing and debt. He tells us that he has a five-point plan, and I can sum it up in five words: “Let us bankrupt Britain again.”
Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)
Q10. Perhaps the Prime Minister could tell us why the Deputy Prime Minister did not support his position on Europe on Monday, and why not one single Liberal Democrat MP voted with the Prime Minister last night.
The Prime Minister
Last night there was something of a parliamentary rarity: a motion tabled by an opposition party praising the Prime Minister. I am very grateful to colleagues in the Democratic Unionist party. I suspect that many people concluded that Labour simply would not get its act together and did not think that it was worth voting, and as a result we won very easily.
Parliamentary Lobbying
Thomas Docherty Excerpts(13 years ago)
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Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
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John Mann
The hon. Gentleman will want to listen to my speech. He may have a “career” in this House, but I have a vocation here, attempting to represent the interests of my constituents. That seems to me what being a Member of Parliament should be about.
Let me give an illustration of this interchangeability, or “incestuous relationship”, as my hon. Friend the Member for Newport West has described it. We will go to the top and start with the Prime Minister, because of course the founder of Shandwick lobbyists was Lord Chadlington. Lord Chadlington was the Prime Minister’s patron to get his parliamentary seat in Witney and, as was reported in The Sunday Times in 2007, he offered the Prime Minister his little farm and pool, in which the Prime Minister’s family were invited to swim. Actually, he did a lot more than that, because the little farm is the same building that he gave the Prime Minister and that the Prime Minister used for the first six months that he was a Member of Parliament. And Lord Chadlington is a man who formed a lobbying company, which was eventually sold on to Huntsman—sorry, Huntsworth lobbyists. People can see that Huntsworth does not lobby me that often. [Laughter.]
Huntsworth has its tentacles across the world. One of its subsidiaries is called Quiller. The Minister will be smiling, because Quiller employs lots of people from lots of different political parties, including advisers. I have never heard of it myself, but apparently two of them were advisers to the Labour party; they were a Mr Smith and a Mr Slinger. I never came across them myself. There were also a Mr Alistair Murray, who advised the Liberal Democrat party, and a Mr Parkinson, a Ms Roycroft and a Mr Malcolm Morton, who were all aides to Conservative MPs. Indeed, the Minister will know Mr Malcolm Morton, because he was an adviser to the Minister. Saying that is not to criticise either the Minister or Mr Morton, but it demonstrates the interchangeability between the political world and the lobbying world. That preferential access is gained by personal contacts, which is what is fundamentally wrong with the current situation.
Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)
Would my hon. Friend also include those people who have worked for trade unions in this sphere, for example people who have been the head of education and research for their union or people who were trade union liaison officers?
Chris Bryant
My hon. Friend misunderstands me, I suspect. I do not seek to muddy reform; I want reform. I want a register, and I will suggest a couple of other things as well, but I think that we must be absolutely honest, and part of that involves honesty about the important role that good lobbying can play in the political process, particularly for Opposition Members. Ministers have a host of civil servants who can produce briefings and so on; Opposition Members simply do not have access to that much support. Often it is provided by organisations. If at any point a Member succumbs so completely to the blandishments of some organisation that they effectively become its subsidiary, they stop being a good parliamentary Member and constituency representative. That is the line that I want to draw.
We should also bear in mind that lobbying is a British tradition. It is because there was a lobby outside St Stephen’s chapel that the whole system arose. I remember clearly that when Paris lost its bid for the 2012 Olympics, Delanoë complained that the British had engaged in lobbying. I saw all too often in Brussels that although Britain was good at advocating its case, other countries were not, because they simply did not understand how to go about it properly.
Some industries are particularly lobbyacious—and, Hansard reporters, that is a word, because I have created it. Broadcasting is particularly lobbyacious, because so many elements of its work are determined by legislation. We must take special care to ensure a level playing field for everybody.
There are enormous problems, many of which have been referred to, including corrupt lobbying: offers of financial inducements, nice holidays, easy trips and so on. Some methods are directly corrupt and illegal, and the House should deal ferociously with Members who abuse in that direction. Sometimes Members would be best advised not to go to the meal or engage. The rules applying to this House are much stronger than those that apply to the other House. If one wanted to engage in dodgy lobbying, one would be far better advised to do so through the House of Lords—the House of patronage—rather than through the House of Commons. That is another reason why I support reforming the House of Lords to make it an elected second Chamber.
Another way in which it is probably much easier to do a dodgy deal is with civil servants rather than elected Members. There is far less openness; often even the names of people who make important decisions on tenders are not known to the public. Some countries have purposely selected individual Members of both Houses as being more pliable and biddable than others, and have enabled long-term relationships with them. Those relationships need close scrutiny.
What counts as a lobbyist is also a problem. I do not mean to say that we should not have a register; it is one reason why we should. The Prime Minister was a lobbyist before he came into Parliament, and most journalists advocate most of the time in one way or another, especially those with opinion columns. When my constituents set up an organisation to oppose the closure of the Treherbert baths or protect the minor injuries unit at Llwynypia, they are lobbyists. My hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw is absolutely right. If their space to lobby me were crowded out, I would be failing utterly in my job. Every single diplomat who works for the Foreign Office is also, in essence, a lobbyist. I often feel that they are sent abroad to eat for their country. It is important to recognise the advocacy role of what we do.
The first key thing is that there should be no paid advocacy. That is a rule of this House, but it is more honoured in the breach than in the observance. We need absolute transparency about funding and who is engaged in lobbying, and particularly about who meets any Minister or civil servant engaged in making key decisions.
Thomas Docherty
On the point about influence, does my hon. Friend think that that should apply to Select Committee Chairmen, who have a lot of influence over policy?
Chris Bryant
That is a good point. Members of Select Committees that publish influential reports are often targeted by lobbying organisations. It would be no bad thing if each Select Committee had an open register of lobbying meetings held.
Passes to this place are a problem. When I worked in Brussels, getting a pass to enter the European Parliament on legitimate business was a simple, straightforward and open process. Here, it is clandestine. Lots of people end up finding an hon. Member who is prepared to give them one of their three passes. We should have a complete review of the system. Of course we must ensure security in this building, but everybody should have equal access. I would prefer to open the doors than keep them closed so that only some people have enhanced access. Nobody should have enhanced access due to big bucks or cronyism. That last element is difficult to control. I look forward to legislation introducing a register soon. I am not naive about the difficulties of determining what a lobbyist is, but it is essential that we clean up the industry.
Mr Harper
I listened very carefully to what my hon. Friend said about the inquiry that the Public Administration Committee is undertaking at the moment and the evidence it has heard. Clearly, when it publishes its report, the Government will look very carefully at its recommendations and respond in due course. I look forward to the Committee’s report.
Thomas Docherty
The Minister referred to the website data.gov.uk. I have just had a chance to go on that website and can see that the Cabinet Office information has not been updated since December 2010. Does he think that that is transparent?
Mr Harper
My understanding is that all the meetings up to the end of April this year have been published. However, I will check up on the matter. It was my understanding because that information has been provided.
On the point the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) made, even some of his colleagues—I will not embarrass them by pointing them out—thought that his line about trade unions not being encompassed by the transparency rules is unsustainable. Given the fact that the party he represents gets 85% of its donations from trade unions and a quarter of its donations from a single trade union, I am afraid that his argument is simply not defensible.