European Union (Referendum) Bill

Thomas Docherty Excerpts

Friday 17th October 2014 Commons Chamber

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

I will be suitably brief, because I know that many colleagues wish to speak in this important debate. I congratulate the hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill) on introducing the Bill. I got to know him quite well when he was a Minister in the Department for Communities and Local Government and always found him to be a thoughtful and considerate fellow. I thought that he set out his arguments extremely well this morning, but I am afraid that I disagree with him on three points. I will touch on them briefly.

First, on the need for the Bill and, more importantly, for the referendum, if we listen carefully to the party on the Government Benches, and it is now a party—I think that all the Lib Dems are in Rochester and Strood trying to hold on to their deposit in the by-election—we hear that it somehow takes no responsibility for the changing nature of the European Union over the past 40 years. Let us be clear that the two Prime Ministers who transferred more powers than any other from the United Kingdom to Brussels were Lady Thatcher and John Major. Government Members act as if they had no role at all in that, and that somehow there is a need today that was not there 20 years ago. I think that with the exception of the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, none of the Conservatives who were Members of Parliament in the early ’90s argued against the Maastricht changes. None of them thinks that Lady Thatcher was wrong to have ceded so much power to our European neighbours.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

My hon. Friend is reminding the Conservatives that they did indeed commit many sins in relation to our membership of the European Union, not least of which was joining the exchange rate mechanism, which proved to be an economic disaster. Many of them now regret that because it led to Labour’s victory in 1997.

[Thomas Docherty]

I am most grateful to my hon. Friend. He has reminded us of the key role that the current Prime Minister and Chancellor of the Exchequer were playing in the early ’90s in forming the economic policies of John Major and Lord Lamont which led us so disastrously to Black Wednesday. I am not sure that they have had a chance to apologise for the mistakes that they made.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

I have to remind my hon. Friend that the Labour leadership at that time also supported the ERM strategy, which I did not.

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[Thomas Docherty]

I am most grateful for my hon. Friend’s incredibly helpful intervention.

As far as I am aware, very few Conservative Members stood on a platform at the last general election calling for an in/out referendum. I suspect that the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) did, and I know that the hon. Member for Clacton (Douglas Carswell) did, but in the Conservative party manifesto the Prime Minister explicitly ruled out having a referendum. So what is the reason for doing this now?

[Conor Burns (Bournemouth West) (Con)]

Twenty-one years ago, I was elected national chairman of the Conservative students. That decision was overruled by central office, and the person who lost was appointed. The reason was that I was leading student opposition to the Maastricht treaty, along with my hon. Friend the Member for Clacton (Douglas Carswell) and Dan Hannan. Some of us have been absolutely consistent on this and predicted at the time that the European Community would change beyond recognition. That is why the British public need to have a say on this totally changed construct from what they were promised and offered in 1975.

[Thomas Docherty]

I am most grateful to Lady Thatcher’s metatron for joining us today. I was not aware that there were many mature students in the Conservative party 20-odd years ago, but it turns out that there were obviously some.

The reality is that the institution that Conservative Members rail against today was constructed by Conservative Foreign Secretaries and Prime Ministers, yet they take no responsibility and now pretend that it is somebody else’s fault.

There is no mandate from the country for a referendum, because the vast majority of Members of this House were elected in opposition to having a referendum at this time. Many hon. Members have referred to Scotland. The Scottish referendum came about because two parties, the Green party and the Scottish National party, stood on a clear and unambiguous platform in saying, “Vote for us and we will have a referendum.” They won a majority in the Scottish Parliament elections in 2011, and they had a democratic right to call for that referendum. Labour Members did not oppose that because we could see a clear mandate. Despite what some Conservative Members have said, I do not think that many of them came to Scotland, which, to be fair, is probably why we got quite a good result.

[Conor Burns]

I stayed in your spare room.

[Thomas Docherty]

I know that one or two of them did come up for a few days to help out.

Scotland went on “pause” for three years. Its economy suffered because we were having a referendum. The poison and the nastiness in that debate was something I had never previously encountered in my 20 years of political activism. Business and industry deferred investment decisions because of the uncertainty that having a referendum was going to create. It is a fantasy to think that if we decide now that we are going to have a referendum in three years’ time, we will not see companies such as Nissan and those cited by my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) putting off investment decisions. It will cause nothing but uncertainty, put the fragile recovery at risk and lead to a three-year obsession with the single issue of Europe.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

rose—

[Thomas Docherty]

I have already given way twice to my hon. Friend, who has spoken at some length. I want to make some progress because other Members want to get in.

Another problem with the timetable is that it assumes that the Prime Minister will be able to renegotiate by the end of 2017. My right hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South (Mr Alexander) spoke eloquently about the Prime Minister’s track record of not being the strongest at winning friends and influencing people, not just in his own party, but in 27 countries. [Interruption.] I appreciate that it is difficult for the hon. Member for Elmet and Rothwell (Alec Shelbrooke) to stand up sometimes, but he should just get up and say it rather than sledge from a sedentary position. He just wants to chunter away and that is fine.

The Prime Minister has failed repeatedly to win in Europe. Do we really think that the other 27 nations are going to allow the United Kingdom unilaterally to have a series of opt-outs from Europe?

[Mrs Main]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I do not want to infer anything from what the hon. Gentleman has just said, but would he like to explain why my hon. Friend the Member for Elmet and Rothwell (Alec Shelbrooke) has trouble getting up occasionally? I think that was an unfortunate and ill-judged remark.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

The hon. Lady will appreciate that that is not a point of order. We will not take time in this debate discussing the hon. Gentleman’s athleticism or otherwise.

[Thomas Docherty]

I am moving towards my conclusion and am conscious that others want to speak.

Let me be absolutely clear: the idea that the Prime Minister can unilaterally secure significant renegotiation is unrealistic, to say the least. The only way we are going to have significant renegotiation is through an intergovernmental conference, which will require Chancellor Merkel, the French President and others to agree to the process. What will happen if we get to the end of 2017 and the Prime Minister of the day has failed to secure those renegotiations? Will we have a referendum or not?

[Kate Hoey]

Yes.

[Thomas Docherty]

My hon. Friend says yes, which is a reasonable position if she simply wants out of the European Union. I disagree with her, but it is a legitimate position. What we should not have is the duplicitous behaviour of some Conservative Members. They claim that they want to put this to the will of the people, but the reality is that they just want to leave the European Union. This has nothing to do with trusting the British people; it is all because the Conservative parliamentary party cannot trust its own Prime Minister.

Finally, there is no clear reason for having a referendum in 2017. It will simply cause economic instability and constitutional chaos, and distract us from the important work that needs to be done on rebuilding our economy. I do not support this Bill and do not wish it a good wind.

Ukraine, Syria and Iran

Thomas Docherty Excerpts

Monday 24th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

That analysis is correct. I said earlier that it is important not to present this as a binary choice for Ukraine. My hon. Friend’s argument is the reason for that: a binary choice would always make it difficult for a nation with that composition to give a 100% clear answer. It is important to leave open the wider possibilities of co-operation, both with Russia and with the European Union in future. It is for Ukraine to decide its constitutional structure. We can support the objectives of territorial integrity and the workings of a democratic state, but it is for it to decide the means of doing so.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

In 2011, I visited Kiev with the hon. Member for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale) as part of the efforts by the Westminster Foundation for Democracy to try to build a stronger Parliament. Those efforts failed. Has the Foreign Secretary given active consideration to finding fresh funding to restart that process as one of the things that we do to help the Rada move forward?

[Mr Hague]

That is a possibility, as I said in reply to the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman). It is for the Westminster Foundation for Democracy to decide its own dispositions. My job is to maintain the funding for that, which I have done, so that it can make those decisions. We will need a fresh look altogether at how we can support that democratic development under the right conditions.

Diplomatic Relations (Spain)

Thomas Docherty Excerpts

Wednesday 27th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lidington]

What would be in the interests of both this country and Spain, as fellow members of NATO and the European Union, would be to take forward talks on practical issues concerning co-operation on matters that affect Gibraltar and the campo, to park the admitted irreconcilable difference over sovereignty and to focus on the wider agenda, where the UK and Spain have a great deal on which they should be able to work together constructively.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

Just a few days ago Members on both sides of the House warned that every time the Foreign Office summoned the ambassador there was some sort of nonsense from the Spanish in response. Will the Minister answer the specific question from my right hon. Friend the Member for Warley (Mr Spellar), which he forgot to answer? Has either the Prime Minister or the Foreign Secretary personally spoken with their counterparts in Spain?

[Mr Lidington]

The contacts with the Spanish authorities have been at all appropriate senior levels. We remain ready, in the event of further serious incidents—we hope that they will not happen—to make representations to Spain at whatever level we consider appropriate given the circumstances.

Gibraltar

Thomas Docherty Excerpts

Wednesday 20th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mark Simmonds]

My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. I do not think the ambassador was given a copy of the treaty of Utrecht; I am sure he is very much aware of its contents. But he was told in no uncertain terms about the unacceptability of the oceanographic vessel entering British Gibraltar territorial waters and staying there for the length of time that it did. He was also made well aware of the strength of feeling that exists in both Gibraltar and the United Kingdom about the unacceptable delays at the border, which are potentially hindering the economy in Gibraltar, and hindering free access and movement for Gibraltarians and for Spanish people as well.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

By my count, this is the fourth time that the Foreign Office has summoned the ambassador and his representatives for a stern ticking-off. On each occasion the Spanish have escalated the dispute by trying to ruin Gibraltar economically with these absurd border checks. Does there not come a point where even the Minister would accept that this strategy is not working and that we need real action from this Government?

[Mark Simmonds]

The United Kingdom is standing shoulder to shoulder with the Government and the people of Gibraltar. The Spanish activity, both the incursion into territorial waters and the border delays, are unacceptable. The British Government have made this clear in the strongest possible terms. The Prime Minister wrote to the EU Commission President to ask the EU Commission to get involved, which it has now done. We continue to provide evidence to the EU Commission, we continue to press the EU Commission to make sure that its recommendations to the UK, Gibraltar and Spain are implemented in full, and we will continue to do everything we can through diplomatic and political means to resolve what is a political dispute to the satisfaction of Gibraltarians and everybody in the United Kingdom.

European Union (Referendum) Bill

Thomas Docherty Excerpts

Friday 8th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD)]

I rise to support new clause 1. The absurd proposal in this group is obviously amendment 43, which seems to suggest that everyone across Europe will vote on this issue, whatever their nationality.

As somebody who supports a referendum on our membership of the EU but would probably vote in favour, I think it very important that UK citizens who live abroad should be entitled to vote. Obviously that is allowed, but people who live in Gibraltar also need to vote. We will eventually need to consider the wider issue of what representation the Crown dependencies have, but that is for another day.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

I am most grateful to you, Mr Speaker, for calling me to speak in this debate.

As I am sure the hon. Member for Stockton South (James Wharton) will recall, I intervened on him to raise the issue of Gibraltar when we first gathered here on a Friday to discuss this Bill. I think I am accurate in saying that he was rather dismissive of my concerns about the people of Gibraltar and accused me of merely trying to wreck the Bill. I very much welcome the fact that he has had a conversion along the way from here to the Whips Office to get his instructions and back again, and now supports giving the people of Gibraltar the right to take part in this referendum.

We heard an excellent speech from the hon. Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell), who is one of the leading experts on the overseas territories. I was slightly disappointed, however, that he did not explain the precise reason why it is vital for Gibraltar to have its voice in the referendum. The reason is that under the treaty of Utrecht, which—he may correct me—took place in 1713, the United Kingdom has ownership of Gibraltar for as long as we and the people of Gibraltar should wish it, but should we ever renounce our ownership of the Rock, ownership automatically passes back to Madrid. Therefore, under the treaty, the people of Gibraltar have no ability to seek their own independence. If they were not given their chance to have a say in the referendum, if the United Kingdom chose to leave the EU, they would be placed in the ridiculous situation of having to choose whether they wished to remain part of the European Union or to become Spanish.

That is why I very much welcome the fact that eventually, after six months, the hon. Member for Stockton South and his colleagues have accepted the argument that I tried to make back in July. I look forward to his explaining why it has taken him so long to come to the conclusion that was obvious to us at such an early stage.

[Mr Thomas]

As regards new clause 1, does my hon. Friend agree that it would be helpful if the Bill’s promoter gave us a little more information about why the Colonial Laws Validity Act 1865 needs to be referenced in the Bill?

[Thomas Docherty]

I fully agree. You will recall, Mr Speaker, that on Wednesday evening we had a debate about the use of explanatory statements. As I think the House knows, I was a little sceptical about the mandatory nature of that proposal. However, I must confess—as I said, I am not as much of an expert as the hon. Member for Romford—that it would have been helpful in this case, because yesterday there was some genuine confusion about the amendments, with several hon. Members seeking guidance from the Clerks, the Library and elsewhere. I am disappointed that the hon. Gentleman did not explain why that particular line was included in the new clause. Does he wish to provide an explanation?

[Andrew Rosindell]

indicated dissent.

[Thomas Docherty]

No? I am sorry about that, because it has been puzzling me.

I am keen on giving the people of Gibraltar an opportunity to take part in a referendum that will directly affect them. I regret that it has taken us so long to persuade the hon. Member for Stockton South to accept that obvious point about a flaw that has been in his Bill from the very beginning.

[Martin Horwood]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty), who is right to say that this omission—this flaw in the Bill—was pointed out at a very early stage and that the anomaly of the situation of the people of Gibraltar could have been rectified much earlier. That reflects the nature of the Bill, which in many respects—I am sure we will come on to them—is not very well thought out. It was, in effect, a public relations exercise to cover up the deep division in the Conservative party over the question of whether or not to remain in Europe.

That has been highlighted clearly in today’s edition of The Economist, the front cover of which has a road map that goes onwards and upwards to Great Britain, with a little cul-de-sac off to the right marked “Little England”, accompanied by an image of the European Union symbol with a cross through it. I think that the risk of the little Englander is the real issue behind much of the Bill.

The subject of new clause 1 is Gibraltar. It raises the obvious question of what would happen if Gibraltar exercised an expression of its destiny, as the hon. Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell) eloquently put it, and voted to remain in the European Union but the UK voted to leave, perhaps with the votes of people in Scotland, which may by then have voted, in theory, to leave the United Kingdom. I am not clear where that would leave Gibraltar. It is included in the European Union only by virtue of the UK’s membership of the EU. It is represented in the European Parliament, not in its own right, but only by virtue of being a British Crown dependency.

[Thomas Docherty]

If I may briefly correct the hon. Gentleman on two points, he just referred to Gibraltar as a Crown dependency, but I am sure he meant to say that it is an overseas territory. I am sure he also misspoke when he said that it is represented by the United Kingdom when, of course, it has votes in the South West and Gibraltar constituency of the European Parliament.

[Martin Horwood]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. I was talking about representation and was about to point out that Gibraltar is part of the South West England and Gibraltar constituency, which also includes my constituency of Cheltenham and is ably represented by Sir Graham Watson. The point is that Gibraltar does not have separate representation in its own right in the European Parliament. The hon. Gentleman is right to correct me on calling it a Crown dependency; it is, of course, an overseas territory. It has many of the same special arrangements as various other territories but, uniquely, it is part of the European Union while other overseas territories and Crown dependencies are not formally part of it.

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[Thomas Docherty]

I am listening attentively to the hon. Gentleman and, as a Scot, I do not quite follow his logic. Under the new clause, which seems to have cross-party support, the people of Gibraltar will get a say in the referendum. If Scotland chooses to stay part of the EU, it would still be bound by the collective result and the same is true of Gibraltar, unless it chooses to cease being part of the United Kingdom. I am struggling to understand why the hon. Gentleman does not see it in that way. Perhaps he could explain further.

[Martin Horwood]

I will explain. The situation is different from that in Scotland, because Scotland, for the time being at least, remains part of the territory of the United Kingdom, has representation in this Parliament and is represented in Europe by virtue of being part of the UK, not of being a territory of the UK. Gibraltar has self-government and that is a cardinal principle of our relationship with it. Should it at any point decide to join the kingdom of Spain, it could take that step without having to leave the United Kingdom. In effect, we are saying that we would expel Gibraltar from the EU even if it voted to remain in it.

[Thomas Docherty]

The hon. Gentleman must have misspoken. I think he just said—perhaps I heard him wrong—that Gibraltar could join the kingdom of Spain without leaving the United Kingdom.

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

Yes, he did.

[Thomas Docherty]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for endorsing me. I do not think the hon. Gentleman meant to say that. He said that Gibraltar is self-governing. It has self-government on many issues, but not all. We still provide its international relations, Home Office functions and defence functions. I think the hon. Gentleman is misspeaking.

[Martin Horwood]

No, on this occasion I do not think the hon. Gentleman is right. Gibraltar is a UK territory but, like other overseas territories and Crown dependencies, it is not actually part of the United Kingdom. The test is whether there is direct representation in this Chamber.

[Thomas Docherty]

I really am disappointed that the hon. Gentleman has not had an opportunity to talk to the many Members throughout the House who have a close interest in overseas territories. Overseas territories have a great deal of self-governance, but they still rely on the UK for many of their functions, including defence and foreign affairs. It is not mutually exclusive to say that they have self-governance but that the UK provides many of their functions.

Would the hon. Gentleman also like to take the opportunity to correct the record? It has been endorsed by my hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey) that he said that Gibraltar could choose to join the kingdom of Spain without leaving the United Kingdom.

[Martin Horwood]

The reason why Gibraltar could decide to join the kingdom of Spain should it ever want to—obviously, there is no prospect of that in the near future—without leaving the United Kingdom is that it is not formally part of the UK at the moment. We would respect the wishes of Gibraltarians if they ever expressed that desire. They would not have to leave, because they are not formally part of the territory of the United Kingdom itself. They are an overseas territory.

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[Thomas Docherty]

That’s semantics.

[Martin Horwood]

It is a rather semantic point. I feel that we are leading the House down something of an angels-dancing-on-a-pinhead diversion, so we should probably move on to more substantial issues. The substantial point that I was trying to make before being entertainingly diverted by the hon. Gentleman was that we could end up in a situation in which the people of Gibraltar voted to remain in the European Union, but were effectively expelled from it by virtue of a United Kingdom referendum. We can leave the debate about the precise nature of Gibraltar’s detachment from the United Kingdom for another time.

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[Martin Horwood]

That was a much more constructive intervention and it was typically well made by the hon. Gentleman. He is absolutely right that there is a strong case for Gibraltar to remain within the European Union, as there is for the United Kingdom to remain within it, not only because of the issues that he mentioned, but because of the fight against cross-border crime and terrorism and a range of other issues.

[Thomas Docherty]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Martin Horwood]

All right—one last time.

[Thomas Docherty]

The hon. Gentleman has not mentioned the most important benefit of the European Union. We have a bully in Spain that has been trying to force its will upon the people of Gibraltar. One of the huge advantages of the European Union, as the people of Gibraltar know, is that it allows them, following the representations of the Minister for Europe and others, to stand up with the United Kingdom to that bully. That would not be happening if they were outside the European Union.

[Martin Horwood]

I will not rise to that point. It takes us away from the core subject matter of the new clause.

I want to make it clear to Members on both sides of the House that I support the new clause because it aims to correct the anomaly. There are some reassuring parts to it. It is great to know that subsection (2)

“is not to be regarded as restricting the operation in relation to law made by the Gibraltar legislature of the Colonial Laws Validity Act 1865 (under which colonial laws are void if repugnant to the provision made under an Act of Parliament).”

I am sure that that will be a massive reassurance to the people of Gibraltar. It is a serious point that it will reassure them that the overall constitutional framework is being respected and not changed by the fact that we are passing legislation in this Chamber that relates to the constitutional position of Gibraltar.

I am happy to support the new clause, although I would be interested to hear what the right hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr Lidington) thinks the position would be for Gibraltarians in the event of their voting yes and the United Kingdom voting no. Where would that leave them constitutionally? Would they be able to renegotiate their own separate membership of the European Union? If so, would their membership carry on automatically or would they be in the position that it has been suggested Scotland might be in if it voted for independence, whereby it would leave the European Union automatically and have to reapply as an independent country?

I will not go through the raft of amendments that we are considering in this group one by one. I am sure that that is to the relief of Members behind me. However, some of the amendments, although addressing issues that are critical to the future of the UK and its position within the European Union, run the risk of looking a wee bit frivolous. It is important for those of us who are in favour of a debate on Europe and in favour of European Union membership to retain some credibility.

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[Mike Gapes]

That is absolutely correct, and I will address that point as I talk in detail about each of my amendments.

[Thomas Docherty]

I do not fully follow my hon. Friend’s logic; I hope that he will explain it better. We do not allow the people of the Falkland Islands to vote in a Westminster general election even though, as he rightly says, it has a big implication for their future. Will he explain in a little more detail why he thinks they should have a vote in the referendum when they do not participate in a Westminster general election?

[Mike Gapes]

I will talk about overseas territories’ relationship with the European Union later. Along with the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood), I served on European Committee B when we discussed at great length a series of documents about the new relationship between the overseas territories and the EU—I have them with me and may well quote from them. Some overseas territories have become what is called in the jargon “outer areas” of the European Union. For example, the French have overseas territories that not only have the right to be represented in the French Senate, but are defined as territories of the EU. However, the British overseas territories, apart from Gibraltar, are not.

[Thomas Docherty]

I wrote to the overseas territories a few months ago to inquire about that point, and I know that the hon. Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell) and others have been making a case about it in the Foreign Affairs Committee for some time. There is no great appetite for the UK overseas territories to have representation in the UK Parliament. Will my hon. Friend give us his thoughts on why that is the case?

[Mike Gapes]

I am a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee. In the previous Parliament, we carried out a major inquiry on the overseas territories. They are all different. Some of them are completely depopulated, some have few people, such as the Pitcairn Islands, which I think have 56 or 57 people, and others, such as the Falkland Islands, have a long-standing British population. The people of the Falkland Islands have expressed their self-determination in a vote, but they still suffer serious threats from Argentina.

Gibraltar still has a problem with regard to Spain, which is why new clause 1 is important. The point made by the hon. Member for Cheltenham is valid, because if the United Kingdom were to leave the EU, what would happen to the efforts of the British Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary to get the European Commission President to intervene when Spain puts pressure on Gibraltar? If we were on an exit path or had already left the EU, presumably the Commission would not try to help the citizens of Gibraltar when they were suffering blockades, huge queues and all the other problems that have arisen in recent months. I have not yet mentioned the dispute that has arisen over territorial waters, concrete blocks and fishing access.

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[Mike Gapes]

We will discuss the Electoral Commission’s report on the wording of the question when we speak to another group of amendments. The commission clearly takes a different view from the Government on the question, but that issue is not for this group of amendments. I do not know about the commission’s detailed views on the issues I am discussing, so I will not comment on them.

[Thomas Docherty]

My hon. Friend misspoke very slightly earlier when he referred to the general election franchise, but that is not quite true, because Members of the other place would have a vote. On a more substantive point, in the referendum that we in Scotland have next year on whether we should leave the EU, European Union citizens will be granted the vote. I did not support that, but given that the Government supported EU citizens having the right to vote on that precedent on that occasion, should they not be given the right to vote on whether the whole of the UK leaves the EU?

[Mike Gapes]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend, and that is why I have tabled amendments that would apply either the local government franchise or the European Parliament franchise. That would meet his point about Scotland.

I was going to come to the question of prisoners later—not prisoners, Members of the House of Lords. [Interruption.] I said prisoners because, under our present law, Members of the House of Lords, lunatics and prisoners are excluded from voting in elections to the House of Commons. The Government propose to modify that to allow peers to vote in the referendum, but not lunatics or prisoners. I have tabled an amendment on prisoners—I was unable to get an amendment on lunatics on the amendment paper. My point is that the Government are making a constitutional change in the relationship between the Houses of Parliament and in the role of Members in the other place. Are the Government proposing that Members of the other place should vote in the referendum? I referred to the Government—I must apologise; I meant the part of the Government that is putting forward the proposal. They need to clarify why they think that it is appropriate to change that long-standing relationship.

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[Mike Gapes]

It is difficult enough for me to contemplate the implications of rulings from the Chair in this Chamber without tying myself in knots over how the Lord Speaker would deal with such issues should they be raised with her in the other place. It would be best to put that issue on the agenda for the other place if it comes to consider this Bill. It will have to deal with that issue at that point. I do not have a view on or any detailed knowledge of how it would be dealt with at that time.

I want to be clear about the important differences between the amendments I have tabled. Amendment 43 would allow people with the right of abode in the United Kingdom to vote in this referendum, because it would affect them. Would they be expelled from the European Union? Would they no longer have the right to travel freely to the 27 other member states?

As I have already said, amendment 45 concerns those who are entitled to vote as electors in a European Parliament election, such as all the residents of the UK who are citizens of Austria, Latvia, Estonia, Italy, Germany, France, Spain, Portugal, the Czech Republic or Slovakia—I will not list all the other 27 member states, but there are a lot of them. Some of those people gain the full benefit of our education system and contribute to our society in many ways, just as British people living in other European countries benefit from their systems. We have seen recent reports that say that more British people are on welfare benefits in other EU countries than people from other EU countries living in the UK on benefits. If we were to leave the European Union, what would happen to those British people’s right to reside in those other European countries and benefit from the facilities, social security systems and other amenities of those countries? These are issues of great importance, but British people living in other countries would not be allowed to vote in the referendum, and nor would European Union citizens living in this country. That would be wrong, because the decision would have profound, long-term implications for them. That is why we need proper parliamentary scrutiny of it, which we are beginning here today. I hope that we will be able to continue it over the coming weeks and months.

Amendment 46 relates to the local government franchise, which is the basis for the Scottish referendum. In my opinion, there are no strong arguments against that. I have already covered amendment 47, which addresses the issue of those British citizens resident in any of the member states of the European Union.

Amendment 48 refers to the rights of prisoners to vote. Interesting statements have been made recently by the Government’s senior law officers, but the position is confused on whether some—if not all—prisoners will be given the right to vote. The Bill is silent on that issue, but if the Government’s position changes in the next few months—despite the clear vote of this House against giving votes to prisoners—we would need to discuss it in some detail. There would be implications if the European Court maintains its judgment that some prisoners should be given the right to vote, not just for parliamentary elections but for the franchise for any referendum on leaving the European Union. That is why I have tabled the amendment.

Amendment 8 would clarify the basis on which people would be able to vote. At present, overseas voters can register under the 15-year rule using the address of the local authority area in which they had lived previously. The amendment would allow people to register to vote at a British embassy or high commission. It is deplorable that only 20,000 people living elsewhere in the European Union have the entitlement to vote under the 15-year rule. Some 1.4 million British people live in other European Union countries and we should be trying to find ways to encourage them to register. To reduce the bureaucratic hurdles, the easiest way to do that would be to allow people in Spain, say, to contact the British embassy in Madrid; people in Portugal to go to Lisbon; people in France to go to Paris; and so on. Similarly, if we were to change the franchise to allow British citizens living anywhere in the world to take part in the referendum, we should allow them to go to the British high commissions in Delhi or other countries of the Commonwealth.

I have touched on amendment 44 and I know that other hon. Members will wish to speak on it. My hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) mentioned the age at which people can vote in the Scottish separatist referendum, and the UK referendum should be held on the same basis. Young people have a great interest in the future of the European Union. I would hope, therefore, that they would be able to take part.

[Thomas Docherty]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Mike Gapes]

No, I am afraid I want to conclude my remarks, because other Members wish to speak.

The Crown dependencies, including their very important financial institutions, would also be affected, so should be allowed to vote. We have discussed British overseas territories, so I will not spend any longer on that point, and we have also talked about Gibraltar at length. The important point is this: my amendments expose the Bill’s inadequacy and need for proper consideration and scrutiny. I hope the House will provide that and support at least some of my amendments.

European Union (Referendum) Bill

Thomas Docherty Excerpts

Friday 5th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[James Wharton]

The hon. Gentleman read his intervention very well, but the British people deserve a say and they deserve to be given a real choice. They should be given a choice between the best possible relationship with the European Union that we can offer, and leaving.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

The hon. Gentleman has done a great job in coming up with this idea for a Bill, but has he had an opportunity to talk to representatives from our territory of Gibraltar about the impact on them and whether he plans to give them a say in the referendum?

[James Wharton]

The hon. Gentleman raises an interesting point. Despite being a young and new MP, as I am, he knows very well that parliamentary procedure is one of the greatest challenges that the Bill will face. Were it a large and complex Bill, it would be easier for him and his colleagues to slow its progress and wreck the chances of it getting through and delivering what the British people want. So although I hear what he says and I know he is deeply concerned about anything that will allow him at a later stage, should the Bill go forward today, to slow it down and bog it down in parliamentary procedure, I hope he will resist the temptation and allow us to get it through so that his constituents and mine can vote whichever way they want and have their choice and their say on such a fundamental issue.

We have already discussed the fact that the European Community is not the same as the European Union. What we joined has changed. Those who voted yes in 1975 believed that they had bought a ticket to a clear and certain destination—to a free trade area that would benefit Britain’s economy without undermining our sovereignty. They did not buy a ticket for a never-ending journey to ever-closer union, destination unknown.

--- Later in debate ---

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. As you know, a large number of colleagues on both sides of the House were unable to make a speech on Second Reading. I understand that the Bill is going to be considered in a Public Bill Committee, where it will have full scrutiny. Can you advise me on how we can draw attention to the fact that many Members were unable to contribute to today’s debate?

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

First, I congratulate all right hon. and hon. Members who did speak, because 29 managed to get in, but unfortunately 18 did not, and I feel disappointed for them. In fairness, that is pretty unique for a Friday. Perhaps that has set the tone for future Fridays.

Oral Answers to Questions

Thomas Docherty Excerpts

Tuesday 18th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mark Simmonds]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that question. Significant credit should be paid to him for the assiduous way in which he represents the Chagossian community living primarily in his constituency. I confirm that we will be consulting his constituents and Chagossians who live in Manchester, as well as those who live in Mauritius and the Seychelles.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

21. As I understand it, the current arrangement with the US Administration expires at the end of 2014. Will the Minister assure the House that, notwithstanding the vital role of the base, the Government will make it clear to the US Administration that we will not simply roll over that deal?

Oral Answers to Questions

Thomas Docherty Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd April 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mark Simmonds]

My hon. Friend makes exactly the right point: the oil now flowing between and through South Sudan and Sudan creates the opportunity for economic stability, development and growth in the southern part of Sudan, so the Government of South Sudan will have to have additional capacity to deal with the income that will, I hope, flow into the South Sudanese exchequer. Support is provided by the Foreign Office and by the work of our colleagues at the Department for International Development. We are assisting the South Sudanese Government in building that relevant capacity.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

10. What assessment he has made of the progress made by the Government of Colombia in tackling impunity and implementing the victims and land restitution law.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr Hugo Swire)]

As noted in our 2012 human rights report, the Colombian Government have made some progress on both issues: 170,000 victims have been provided with reparations under the victims and land restitution law. We continue to press the Colombian Government to speed up the processing of cases and reduce impunity, and support them in their steps to reform the judicial system.

[Thomas Docherty]

I am sure the House will agree that, despite the law’s success, many human rights activists are still in grave danger from death threats, and the Catholic Fund for Overseas Development and others have campaigned to highlight the issue. Has the Minister met CAFOD and, if not, will he do so?

[Mr Swire]

The UK’s statement on the UN’s 2013 universal periodic review on Colombia, which we are launching today in Geneva, will call for improved access to justice for victims. I have not to date met representatives from CAFOD, but I would be delighted to do so, particularly if they were accompanied by the hon. Gentleman.

Afghanistan

Thomas Docherty Excerpts

Thursday 21st March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

I do not think it would be very helpful to the Afghan electoral process for Foreign Ministers in other countries to give a running commentary on each of the candidates as they emerge. My hon. Friend has made his point, but I do not think I will take it any further. In view of your injunction that I should be less informative in my answers, Mr. Speaker, I shall take this opportunity to set an example.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

I am sure the whole House agrees there should be no drop in the quality of medical care available to personnel after 2014, given that some will be staying behind. Can the Foreign Secretary update the House on the progress of talks with the United States about the need to ensure that the air bridge and the medical support continue to be of the present high standard?

[Mr Hague]

That is an important issue, which the Ministry of Defence continues to pursue. Our facility will be located next to a major United States facility. That will mean that we have access to the best possible medical care, which is the MOD’s intention.

Commonwealth Day

Thomas Docherty Excerpts

Thursday 14th March 2013 Westminster Hall

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon, Mr Hollobone. I have the privilege of serving under the chairmanship of the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst) on the Administration Committee and the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association executive. The right hon. Gentleman spoke of leadership, and I think that the whole House would agree that he has provided leadership to the CPA at a worldwide level, in the 18 months since he took chairmanship of the executive committee.

I am conscious of the time and will restrict myself to brief observations on five areas. As has been mentioned, the CPA has a vital parliamentary strengthening role, as do the Commonwealth institutions themselves. The right hon. Gentleman was right to speak of a two-way learning process. The process at the general election was not all it could have been. There were queues in many cities, because of poor administration. In the light of the way many other Commonwealth countries run their elections, we may need to learn from them. There was also noteworthy turnout on a couple of recent occasions. I am wearing my Falkland Islands cufflinks for this debate: I received a letter today from the Minister about the 92% turnout in the referendum. If only we could have that in Northamptonshire or Dunfermline, I am sure that we would get similar acclamation. Turnout was similar in recent elections in overseas territories such as the British Virgin Islands and the Turks and Caicos Islands, at 80-plus per cent, which shows that we have things to learn. I hope that the Government will make a commitment to invite the CPA to send an election observer mission to the UK, as it did in 2010, for the next general election.

I am sure that the Minister will join me in welcoming the new Government of Malta, which were elected a couple of weeks ago. He will notice that that was a Labour landslide, ending 15 years of conservative rule. I hope that the UK will move a bit faster towards a change of Government.

An issue on which there is cross-party agreement is defence and security co-operation. My right hon. Friend the Member for East Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy), the shadow Defence Secretary, made an excellent speech at the end of last year, building on the comments of the Chief of the Defence Staff about what more the UK can do towards capacity building in defence and security, particularly in north and central Africa. The Chief of the Defence Staff was right to point out that there is a role that we can play; I hope that the Minister will outline the role that the Foreign Office and the Ministry of Defence think we should play in the Commonwealth countries of Africa, to build their capabilities and capacities at an early stage.

As someone who takes a keen interest in the overseas territories, Mr Hollobone, you will be aware that 90% of the biodiversity in the United Kingdom is contained in those territories. There has been something of a debate recently about turtle farming in the Cayman Islands, but there is a much broader issue about how the UK Government assist and support our overseas territories. Will the Minister briefly outline the support being provided to the overseas territories on various challenges not only by the FCO and the Department for International Development, but by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the Department for Transport and the Department of Energy and Climate Change? Those challenges include—for DECC, for example—hydrocarbons in the Falkland Islands and the management of fishing stocks in the Caribbean.

The right hon. Member for Saffron Walden mentioned that sport is an important part of the Commonwealth, and I am sure that the Minister looks forward to the next Commonwealth games, which Scotland will host next year. I hope that he will take time out from his summer schedule to come and watch Scotland claim many well-deserved gold medals.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

I commend the hon. Gentleman’s excellent time keeping, which I hope will serve as an example to all.