Financial Assistance to Ukraine Bill

Stephen Gethins Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 20th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Gethins (Arbroath and Broughty Ferry) (SNP)]

I add my congratulations to the hon. Member for Amber Valley (Linsey Farnsworth) on her maiden speech. It was so lovely to hear about her family. I was encouraged to hear about her revolutionary constituents who were keen on parliamentary reform. They will certainly have plenty of support from Scottish National party Members in those ambitions.

I thank the Minister for bringing the Bill to the Chamber. We are now 1,000 days on from the full-scale invasion, but it has been well over 10 years since Russia’s initial invasion of Ukraine. I reassert First Minister John Swinney’s acknowledgment of that anniversary yesterday, and the continued commitment to Ukraine of my party and the Scottish Government. This issue cuts across the Chamber, and it is good to see so much unanimity on it.

Why is that important? Because the Ukrainians are fighting for each and every one of us who values democracy, liberty and independence across Europe. They are the frontline defending us and those we represent, as well as our friends and colleagues around Europe. Sometimes, it is easy to lose sight of that. The Bill is about aiding Ukraine, but it is also about investing in our own security. This is a national security issue, and it is a good investment for us.

Let us think for a moment about the consequences of not supplying, arming and providing finance to Ukraine. It would mean a collapse and one of the worst refugee crises that Europe has ever experienced. It would mean a hit to the rules-based system, which I suspect those of us who believe in that system would see as difficult to recover from. Bluntly, it would mean a broadening of the war. Vladimir Putin is not stopping in Ukraine in the same way that he did not stop in Georgia, Chechnya, Syria, Libya—you name it.

Although we are absolutely supportive of the Bill, which certainly has my party’s support, I will pick up on a couple of points that have been raised, on which clarification would be helpful. I agree with the Liberal Democrat spokesperson, the hon. Member for Lewes (James MacCleary), who said that this Bill does not go far enough. From an arms and security perspective, we often provide supplies to Ukraine that allow it to fight and not lose the war, but not to win it. That goes for the arms and the finances being supplied.

I will pick up on a point made quite rightly by the hon. Member for Honiton and Sidmouth (Richard Foord). There are $300 billion-worth of frozen assets. I know that the Minister will not be able to pick up on this today, and it is not part of the Bill, but I encourage her to come back to the Chamber at some point and provide us with an update. She will find that she has support across the Chamber. I know that this issue is not easy and is about building links with other partners, and there will be some resistance to that, but the amount of money in the Bill, which I acknowledge is an important contribution, is dwarfed in scale by the amount of finances that it could provide by unfreezing those assets.

The hon. Member for Honiton and Sidmouth also made a point about sovereign immunity. Russia gave up its sovereign immunity when it launched the full-scale invasion and therefore forced this war on the sovereignty of Ukraine. We also have the principle of the universality of certain crimes, and we have seen allegations about universal crimes committed in Ukraine, with very substantial evidence. That is obviously a matter for the International Criminal Court, but I encourage lawyers to look into the principle of universality on some of the issues in that area. I know that the Minister is sympathetic and that this is not entirely as simple as many of us would like it to be, but from the comments we have heard from across the Chamber, there appears to be a great deal of support for the unfreezing of those assets. It would be fantastic to see the UK Government provide leadership in that area.

I also point to the fact that we have seen fantastic leadership from the Czechs, Estonians and Finns. What makes their leadership so compelling is that they know what happens if we give in to Russian aggression. They know at first hand and have generational knowledge within living memory of what happens when we give in to this kind of aggression. I encourage the Minister to look into that and endorse the points made about the sale of the proceeds from Chelsea football club, which is also very significant. That $300 billion would be transformative in helping Ukraine to fight this war for all of us.

I also ask the Minister about the broader finance issue of the effectiveness of sanctions. We know that Russia has been able to get around sanctions, but we must redouble our efforts. I make reference to a report that I was involved in writing when I sat on the Foreign Affairs Committee, which was on Moscow’s gold and dirty money. There were allegations about some of that money was going through London. I refer the Minister’s Treasury colleagues to have a look at that; it was a very good bit of work undertaken on a cross-party basis. This issue is crucial.

My final point is that our time is limited. We have a new Administration coming in in the United States in January, and we know that the signs are not entirely promising in terms of the support that we have seen from the United States in recent years. This war should actually have been a wake-up call to all of us in Europe 10 years ago. Given the fact that we have had this election in the United States, we are very late to the party on this issue, but we have a huge responsibility to pull together as Europeans. The Ukrainians are on the frontline and deserve our support. This is an investment in our own security. I absolutely support the Bill, but we need to go that little bit further.

--- Later in debate ---

[Richard Fuller]

I will respond briefly to the debate for the Opposition. First, I commend all the speakers, and particularly the hon. Member for Amber Valley (Linsey Farnsworth). It is rare for so many in this House to congratulate a Member on their maiden speech, but it was warranted because she spoke so nicely and kindly about her constituency, as well as with great generosity about her predecessor and very movingly about her father. She should take away the great support from all Members across the House, and we wish her the best of luck in her future here.

The Minister will be aware, having listened to the debate, of the comprehensive support for the Bill. She will have heard calls from some quarters to extend the provisions of the Bill to include seizing not only proceeds from the profits, but the assets. Such a move would be a very large step for the UK to take, and I do not think the official Opposition would support that without very strong convincing from the Government. But on all the other aspects, she will have seen the comprehensive support.

[Stephen Gethins]

On the seizure of assets and the $300 billion, we were trying to make the point that this needs to be explored very seriously. It would be transformative for the Ukrainian war effort and would therefore be transformative for our security. I take on board the hon. Gentleman’s point that this is not easy and about the impact that it might have. However, will he join me in encouraging the Treasury to look at this and come back to us with further details about the possible implications and how it might take this forward, so that we can all, as a House, examine it in greater detail?

[Richard Fuller]

I think I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the Treasury looks at these options on a continuing basis, but, consistently, the point of view held by the previous Government—and I would assume by the current Government—is that that is not the right step to take. But perhaps the Minister will update the House on her views on that in a moment.

Given the support, there was the opportunity for the Government to move forward with all stages of the Bill, so that it could proceed and be completed in this House today. Will the Minister say why that decision was not made and perhaps provide some sense of the timetable for when the Bill will be brought to the House for its concluding stages? But the Opposition’s general message is that we fully support the intentions of the Bill, and we will support it on Second Reading.

Financial Assistance to Ukraine Bill

Stephen Gethins Excerpts

Committee of the whole House
Wednesday 18th December 2024 Commons Chamber

[Darren Jones]

I thank the right hon. Member for his contribution. As we debated on Second Reading, this is a commitment across G7 partners and with the European Union to take action on the proceeds of the assets that are held. For other complicated legal reasons, there is no intention to seize those assets at this time.

[Stephen Gethins (Arbroath and Broughty Ferry) (SNP)]

I thank the Minister for his acknowledgement of the cross-party support for this measure, but to back up my colleague, the right hon. Member for New Forest East (Sir Julian Lewis), the $3 billion from the UK is generous and will make a difference, but the $300 billion in frozen assets would be utterly game changing. I accept the Minister’s argument at the moment about some of the more complicated legal issues. I know that he accepts the very serious situation that the Ukrainians are facing on the front, defending all of us. May I encourage him merely to continue to look at this issue and see whether he can work with G7 colleagues to find a way of unpicking the difficulties that he has highlighted?

[Darren Jones]

I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s encouragement, which I take in good faith. He will know that these matters are multilateral and subject to negotiation with other allies and G7 colleagues, but he will also know, as I am sure the whole House does, that we go into 2025 with a strength of resolve across those G7 countries to do all that we can to help Ukraine continue to mount its defence against the illegal invasion from Russia.

Any other payments beyond the extraordinary revenue acceleration loans to Ukraine or any other country that are unrelated to the ERA scheme are not covered by the provisions of the Bill; this money is in addition to other grants and payments that have been referred to in the House previously.

The clause contains provision for the UK to provide funding towards subsequent arrangements that are supplemental to, modify or replace the ERA. This provision allows for flexibility in the unlikely event that the scheme itself should significantly alter. It is not intended to be used without this change in circumstances.

Clause 2 simply sets out the short title of the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Joe Morris (Hexham) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to speak in support of this Bill, and to pay tribute to the Government for their support for Ukraine and to the consensus across the House that Ukraine must be supported against the barbaric and illegal invasion of a sovereign nation, as my hon. Friend the Member for Livingston (Gregor Poynton) said. The invasion of one European state by another in February 2022 was something I never thought I would see in my lifetime—we all thought that had been consigned to the history books, where it belongs. I am very pleased that we are backing the Ukrainian people in their struggle, and I hope that in time, the Russian people can vote in free, fair and democratic elections to choose their own path.

I also pay tribute to the community of Northumberland, who have come together to welcome families from Ukraine in Hexham, in Riding Mill, and in other towns and villages across my constituency. When I am out and about in my constituency, I am always struck by the Ukrainian flags that I see, sometimes in the most incongruous places—on country lanes, on the sides of churches and in private homes. It really gives me a renewed optimism to see those flags flying beneath the beautiful Northumbrian sky. One question that has been put to me by constituents, and on which I would like to gently probe the Minister, is the future of the Homes for Ukraine scheme. Many families who have taken in Ukrainian refugees have asked me to pursue clarity on that scheme, so I would be grateful if the Minister could give some assurance about it, or some timetable for it.

Ultimately, this short Bill is needed to promote and protect one of our sovereign democratic allies, to protect our institutions, and—as my hon. Friend the Member for Livingston said—to avoid the need for further conflict in the years to come. Putin’s war machine could quite easily continue to impinge on our lives and on people’s lives across the rest of Europe.

[Stephen Gethins]

I would endorse the comments that have been made by colleagues. I think we sometimes need a little bit of perspective. In my constituency and in Tayside and Fife—the hon. Member for Cowdenbeath and Kirkcaldy (Melanie Ward) will be well aware of this—we have defensive barriers that were built during the second world war. The barriers in Tayside and Fife were built by Polish and, as they now are, Ukrainian soldiers who were standing up to tyranny. They built those defences to defend Scotland, and to defend the rest of the United Kingdom as well. They knew that there is no point in standing up to tyranny just in one corner of Europe; we have to do it throughout Europe. Those defences stand as a testament to the time when the Poles and the Ukrainians stood by us. Now is the time for us to once again stand by them.

I echo the remarks made by the hon. Member for Livingston (Gregor Poynton) about the way that Ukrainians have come to our homes and have enriched our society and our communities. I know they are keen to go home, but we can just give them that little bit of certainty. I also pay tribute to the hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells (Mike Martin) for his work and that of others on frozen assets. That speaks to the enormous challenge that Ukraine is facing, and that the rest of us are therefore facing at exactly the same time.

I acknowledge the work of the Minister in seeking to untangle those assets. I welcome his remarks—I really do—but some of the administrative burdens are as nothing compared with the burdens that have been carried by Ukrainian troops on the frontline in Kursk, Donbas and elsewhere, and compared with the challenge we will see from conflict and a refugee crisis should that front collapse at any point. I know he gets that, and there is agreement across the Chamber on it, but I think it is worth underlining.

I also welcome the remarks made by the Conservative shadow Minister, the hon. Member for North Bedfordshire (Richard Fuller), about engaging with our European partners on this, because that is pivotal. I fully endorse his remark about where a number of these funds are being kept, and about how if one moves, we all need to move. There is unanimity in this Committee, and I have been struck by the outstanding work done by a number of colleagues, That unanimity and resolve reflect the magnitude of the challenge that each and every one of us faces if we do not stand up to tyranny and secure the future of Europe right now.

[Phil Brickell (Bolton West) (Lab)]

I wholeheartedly welcome this Bill, which allows us, alongside our G7 partners, to provide £38.6 billion of loans to Ukraine to be repaid using profits from sanctioned Russian assets, and I wholly support this Government’s commitment to stand unequivocally with Ukraine. I believe that Putin and his cronies should be the ones who pay for the damage they have caused across Ukraine. To that end, while this is a very welcome first step, does the Minister agree that we should be doing all we can within the rule of law to seize frozen Russian assets, both private and state, and use them to finance the reconstruction of Ukraine?

Moreover, may I gently suggest to the Minister that we must secure a swift resolution on the proceeds of the sale of Chelsea football club? In March 2022, Roman Abramovich pledged to sell Chelsea football club and donate the £2.5 billion—nearly seven times the value of the humanitarian assistance that the UK has pledged since the invasion in 2022—to support victims of the war in Ukraine. However, as I think all Members know, two years on from the sale, this has hit a stalemate, and regrettably no money has been delivered to the victims of the conflict.

With that in mind, the Government should commit to a number of recommendations that the campaign group Redress has worked on, and all of which I support. The first recommendation is taking steps to ensure that the proceeds of the sale of Chelsea football club are swiftly transferred to a charitable foundation in the UK, or adopting other existing mechanisms set up to deliver reparations to victims of the conflict. The second is ensuring that a substantial percentage of the funds is used for reparations for victims of the conflict, particularly victims of gross violations of international human rights and humanitarian, such as survivors of conflict-related sexual violence. The third recommendation is to engage Ukrainian civil society, victims and survivors in guiding the repurposing of those funds. The fourth and final recommendation is to establish a working group between the Government, civil society and survivors to ensure that funds are distributed in an effective and timely manner.

I very much welcome the substantial progress that the Government have made in the past few months in standing shoulder to shoulder with the Ukrainian people, including the recent announcement of a new anti-corruption champion, the further designation of vessels in the Russian shadow fleet and increasing collaboration across Government to tackle Putin’s war economy, bearing down on both the Kremlin and the wider network of cronies who enable his unlawful and persistent invasion of Ukraine. As my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central and Headingley (Alex Sobel) said, the Bill is an important step, and I welcome further initiatives to support the Ukrainian people as they continue their struggle to protect their sovereignty and territorial integrity in the face of Putin’s unlawful invasion.