Health (CSR)

Simon Burns Excerpts

Thursday 11th November 2010 Westminster Hall

[Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the first time, Mr Gale.

I thank the Backbench Business Committee for allocating this slot. I sought the debate to allow right hon. and hon. Members the opportunity to examine the real impact of the Chancellor’s comprehensive spending review on the Department of Health, the national health service and, indeed, public health.

The coalition Government have set out a 0.4% real-terms budget increase over the spending review period. Although the numbers suggest that the Government are providing the NHS with a modest increase in its budget, the decisions they are making will mean cuts to services, staffing, capital spend, medicines and care. In truth, it is the worst settlement for the NHS in its 62-year history.

During the course of the debate, I want to challenge the Government’s claim that they have met their coalition agreement pledge to guarantee that health spending increases in real terms in each year of the Parliament. Right hon. and hon. Members should note that £1 billion a year is being taken from the existing NHS budget to meet some of the growing costs of social care.

Not only is the coalition failing to rise to the task of dealing with the growing crisis in social care but, by transferring responsibility for social care to local government, it is trying to rob Peter to pay Paul, and then pretending that Peter still has money. Both the Nuffield Trust and the House of Commons Library have confirmed that due to the transfer of money from the health budget to social care, there will actually be a cut in the health budget. The latest House of Commons Library research report confirms:

“Including the (social care) funding is critical to the description of the settlement as a ‘real terms increase’; without it, funding for the NHS falls by £500 million—0.54% in real terms.”

For social care, there are storm clouds on the horizon. Even with the additional money taken from the health budget, there will be a shortfall of at least £2 billion—as set out by the Local Government Association—to maintain current standards by the end of the spending review period. It seems like another broken promise to say that the coalition will provide sufficient resources to maintain current levels of social care.

On top of that, the Government are removing the ring fence from the personal social services grant and merging the social care budget into the local government formula grant. The NHS Confederation has noted that with councils facing a 26% cut in their funding from central Government, money for social care might not get to those who need it. In short, this means that there is no guarantee that the money will be used as intended, thus creating a postcode lottery in care and a Government who are washing their hands of their responsibility to provide dignity to the most vulnerable in our society.

[The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon Burns)]

Just to put the hon. Gentleman out of his misery, as he has prayed in aid the King’s Fund, would he care to comment on—and does he agree with—its briefing for the debate? It says:

“In the context of significant cuts to other Whitehall budgets, the settlements for health and social care are generous. The government has met its pledge to protect the NHS budget and has prioritised additional funding for social care.”

[Grahame M. Morris]

We have crossed swords before over an interpretation of figures. Later in my speech—

[Mr Burns]

It is the King’s Fund.

[Grahame M. Morris]

I intend to come to the King’s Fund in a moment. I suspect that the Minister is quoting rather selectively from its brief.

[Mr Burns]

To help the hon. Gentleman, and because I would like an answer to the question, may I say that I am not quoting selectively? I suspect that he, too, has the briefing. The quotation is at the top of page 4. It is the first and only paragraph of the conclusions, so it cannot be out of context.

[Grahame M. Morris]

I intend to come to the King’s Fund in a moment.

[Mr Burns]

Answer that.

[Grahame M. Morris]

I will answer in a moment, if the hon. Gentleman gives me the opportunity.

I am also quoting figures from a recent House of Commons Library note—perhaps the Minister has a copy as well. It seems quite clear to me that, in terms of departmental expenditure limits and certainly in terms of capital, we are looking at a 17.9% reduction over the lifetime of the Parliament. Indeed, the Minister and I, and other colleagues from the north-east, have raised issues about NHS capital funding in the past—I want to mention those later in my speech. I am conscious that other hon. Members want to make contributions, so I shall press on for the moment and hopefully I can respond to the Minister in a little more detail in a moment or two.

To highlight some of the anecdotal evidence, at a recent meeting of the Community Practitioners and Health Visitors Association, which is part of the union Unite, front-line workers gave their feedback on the impact of cuts already in the pipeline. They expressed concern that a reduction in the number of practitioners was eroding the service to the public, that specialist staff were already being made redundant, that vacancies were being frozen, that case loads were getting bigger and that patients had to wait longer. They further pointed to a reduction in vital health promotion work, which has been highlighted before, and the fact that health visitors were now working significantly over their paid hours in chaotic circumstances.

--- Later in debate ---

[Grahame M. Morris]

My hon. Friend makes a valid point. The White Paper “Equity and Excellence: Liberating the NHS” certainly seems to be setting out in that direction.

Certain projects, and particularly one in my area, have suffered as a result of the departmental expenditure limits that I mentioned earlier, which will result in a decrease of 17.9% over the four-year life of the Parliament. A new hospital in the north-east of England at Wynyard was to have served the southern part of my constituency of Easington, as well as the constituents of Stockton North and Stockton South, and those in parts of Sedgefield and Hartlepool, but it was an early casualty of the cuts.

In the longer term, the coalition partners seem to want not a capital budget, but to pursue a roll-out of private finance initiative hospitals. They want to place every privately built hospital into competition in the private sector so that they can be commissioned by GPs controlling the entire health budget in the private sector. The direction of travel for the health policies of the present Government is clear, but it is my belief that the duty of the Government should be to protect essential public services such as the NHS from the distorting effects of the market.

We need to learn lessons from recent history. It is ironic that my party’s efforts in government to incorporate market conditions in health showed that that could drive costs up rather than bring about efficiencies. Such an example was recently cited in the media. The Coventry University hospital was built under a PFI scheme. As we all know, PFI allows private companies to build public sector infrastructure, but although it gives the benefit of delayed costs to the public purse, those companies are entitled to levy huge interest rates, fees and services charges in the longer term. Treasury figures show that when the contract for Coventry University hospital is paid off in 2041, the estimated cost to the taxpayer will be £3.3 billion. If the state had built the hospital, the cost would have been a fraction of that sum. Indeed, the hospital at Wynyard was costed at £464 million—that is an incredible difference. Market discipline and privatisation do not automatically produce value for the public purse.

[Mr Simon Burns]

Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that that PFI scheme took place under a Labour Government and was approved by a Labour Treasury?

[Grahame M. Morris]

The Minister is right, but I was making the point that important lessons from history need to be learned. We are reacting to evidence that PFI does not necessarily provide value for money. Each case has to be considered on its merits.

Given the real-terms cut to health spending, an agenda of wholesale management reorganisation and the effective privatisation of the NHS budget, the impact of the comprehensive spending review and the Department of Health White Paper will not only alter the principles on which the NHS was founded, but squeeze health provision, increase costs, allow hospitals to go bust if they are failed by the markets, and create a postcode lottery of health services. There is widespread opposition to elements in the White Paper among health care professionals, including from the British Medical Association, which is not noted as radical left-wing organisation. The BMA states that it has

“opposed the increased commercialisation and competition imposed on the NHS in recent years and there is little evidence of any benefits to patients. It brings with it additional costs as well as disincentives for collaboration and co-operation.”

Staff costs account for more than half of NHS expenditure. Future decisions on pay will have a great impact on the health budget. The Royal College of Nursing has already highlighted short-sighted cuts by NHS trusts to their work force and services. The RCN is aware that about 10,000 nursing posts have been earmarked for removal in anticipation of cuts to front-line services. What consideration has the Minister given to the pressure to increase staff pay in coming years? By 2013-14, GPs will have had their pay frozen for four years; consultants for three years; and NHS staff earning more than £21,000 for two years.

[Grahame M. Morris]

I do indeed. My hon. Friend makes an important point. Another is the impact on the NHS budget of the VAT increase that is to be implemented on 1 January 2011.

Kieran Walshe, professor of health policy and management at Manchester business school, has criticised the coalition Government’s approach of making change without evidence. The implementation of the massive reorganisation that is set out in the White Paper will need at least another £3 billion in addition to the sums already identified, such as for wage costs, inflation, and the increase in VAT. That is at least another £3 billion from the NHS coffers, and the plans were still being altered after the coalition agreement was published. The decision to abolish primary care trusts seems more like a last-minute whim of the Secretary of State than a well-thought, evidence-based approach to health service reorganisation.

Professor Walshe said:

“the transitional costs of large scale NHS reorganisations are huge…projected savings from abolishing or downsizing organisations are rarely realised.”

Those of us who have been involved with local government will appreciate how true that is. He continued:

“Closing down or merging organisations produces a round of expensive redundancies, early retirements, and redeployment, while new organisations find new premises and appoint lots of new staff.”

I echo the concerns of Mencap—I am grateful for its briefing—which states

“As the government have still been unclear about the transitional and ongoing costs for moving to the new commissioning arrangements, this settlement may not be sufficient to deliver against needs.”

In contrast, the Secretary of State still believes that he can save money by carrying out the biggest reorganisation in the history of the NHS. Indeed, on 2 November, he said:

“We are cutting management costs in the NHS by 45%. We will cut total administrative costs as well, and in total that will save £1.9 billion a year by 2015.”—[Official Report, 2 November 2010; Vol. 517, c. 759.]

Will the Minister tell us what account has been taken of the unknown costs of the reorganisation?

Professor Chris Ham is the chief executive of the King’s Fund—the Minister’s favourite organisation. He questions why the Government would

“embark upon such a fundamental reorganisation as the NHS faces up to the biggest financial challenge in its history.”

Is it not the case that Ministers should be honest with the public? The impact of the spending review will mean deep cuts to vital services in the NHS. When the Health Secretary delivered his White Paper to the House, he said:

“The dismantling of this bureaucracy will help the NHS realise up to £20 billion of efficiency savings by 2014, all of which will be reinvested in patient care.-—[Official Report, 12 July 2010; Vol. 513, c. 663.]

Coalition Minsters are trying to give the impression that health provision has somehow been protected by a real-terms increase in the health budget, but that myth is starting to unravel. The coalition Government have admitted that current levels of health care will not be maintained. They are undertaking a massive reorganisation and all the evidence suggests that the projected savings will not be realised.

Edward Macalister-Smith, the chief executive of NHS Buckinghamshire, said:

“the amount of money that is available from administrative savings, management savings and the financial back office, is a very small proportion. Most of the money is spent on clinical care. If you want to reduce your spending, make your spending more efficient, that is, I am afraid, where you have to concentrate.”

It is simply not possible to achieve the sort of savings that the Government have outlined. The settlement for the NHS will come no way near maintaining current health care levels. Some £1 billion is being taken to plug the hole in social care. Many more billions are being wasted on a wholesale reorganisation, and the coalition seems to have agreed to take a gamble with the £80 billion NHS commissioning budget.

According to research carried out by the King’s Fund, the VAT rise to 20% from January next year will cost the NHS an additional £250 million a year. Furthermore, additional pressures will be placed on the NHS, thanks to the massive cuts that are being levied on local government budgets. There are also serious concerns that cuts to local government will lead to a shortage of hospital beds as the elderly and vulnerable are left without local care, thus placing even greater pressures on the NHS. The 26% cut in central Government funding for local authorities will pile on the pressure for the NHS. Nigel Edwards, the head of the NHS Confederation, has warned that the pressure on beds could mean that hospitals will be unable to admit patients “who badly need care”.

It is wrong for Ministers to pretend that their reorganisation will improve service delivery or that it is possible to save £20 billion through efficiencies alone. They should be honest about what they are doing to our national health service. The Government are not keeping the promises that they made to patients and staff to protect NHS health care funding.

[Mr Simon Burns]

I would hate the hon. Gentleman to escape from his earlier promise. He said that he would comment on the quote I cited, which, I repeat, has not been taken out of context. Let me remind him what it:

“In the context of significant cuts to other Whitehall budgets, the settlements for health and social care are generous. The government has met its pledge to protect the NHS budget and has prioritised funding for social care.”

Does not the hon. Gentleman agree with that element of the King’s Fund briefing; he seems to agree with anything that suits his argument?

[Grahame M. Morris]

Yet again, the Minister is quoting one specific element of the evidence. The King’s Fund evidence is quite extensive. It is logged on the Health Committee’s website and is open for the public to see. Many commentators and respected organisations take a view that runs counter to that expressed by the Minister.

I shall conclude because I know that other hon. Members wish to speak. Political and NHS leaders need to be realistic about the implications of the financial situation for patients, the public and staff. There are no pain-free options for the NHS. It is time that Ministers were honest about the future of the NHS. There is no doubt that over the spending review period, the NHS will have its spending power reduced. It is time for the Government to be honest with the public about the decisions they have made.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab)]

Thank you for your indulgence, Mr Gale, in allowing me to speak this afternoon. I apologise; I was in the main Chamber earlier for the debate on policy for growth. I also thank my hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris) for securing the debate. To look at us, one would not believe that we are often mistaken for each other. I do not see how that comes about, but I understand that it does—it is something to do with the accent, I believe.

Despite pledges that the NHS would be ring-fenced from Government cuts, according to press reports, dozens of accident and emergency and maternity units have been earmarked for closure or merger. Let me highlight a few: Newark hospital in Nottinghamshire will have its A and E services downgraded, and emergency admissions will stop being taken from April 2011. At the Queen Elizabeth II hospital in Welwyn Garden City, A and E services will be downgraded and the consultant-led maternity unit could be closed. There will also be a downgrading of A and E services at Rochdale infirmary. The Conservative’s election manifesto promised a moratorium on the forced closure of A and E units and maternity wards, so what happened to that pledge?

The situation proves that the settlement provided for health by the comprehensive spending review is not sufficient to meet the pledges made by the coalition parties. As my hon. Friend said earlier, the Prime Minister’s promise in January, and the coalition agreement pledge to

“guarantee that health spending increases in real terms in each year of the Parliament”,

will not be met.

[Mr Simon Burns]

Rubbish.

[Ian Mearns]

The settlement agreed by the coalition will leave the NHS unable to meet growing cost pressures, and that will reduce its purchasing power each and every year. The Government seem to be in denial—that has just been shown by the Minister’s sedentary comment.

Kieran Walshe, professor of health policy and management at Manchester business school, who has already been cited in the debate, puts the figure for reorganisation at up to £3 billion, but there is nothing to say that it will not cost significantly more. We do not yet see where the money will come from.

One of the last reorganisations under the Labour Government involved reducing the number of primary care trusts from 303 to 150. In oral evidence to the Health Committee, Sir David Nicholson, the chief executive of the NHS, stated that it generated

“significant management cost savings and gains at that time. If you look at productivity in the NHS in 2006-07, by 2007-08 you see productivity improved.”

If streamlining and reducing commissioning bodies has saved significant amounts in the past and created efficiencies, why does it appear that the Government now want to create more commissioning bodies? Some say that up to 500 general practice consortiums would be required, but it could be more than that.

The GP involvement in the process is questionable. My local experience in Gateshead as deputy leader of the council with the adult social care portfolio was that it was often difficult to engage GPs in the process of partnership working—they are very busy people. In addition, it takes time for any organisation to become an effective negotiator in commissioning relationships with acute care providers, and to develop health provision plans and purchasing capacity. Why is the coalition placing those additional pressures on the NHS at a time when it is cutting its spending power?

Press reports—the Minister refers to these as rubbish—give fairly extensive lists of hospitals facing A and E closures, maternity closures and cutbacks. Let me quote an example:

“Despite pledges that the NHS would be ring-fenced from government cuts, dozens of A&E and maternity units have been earmarked for closure or mergers.”

Those are the words of not some revolutionary incitement periodical, but The Sunday Telegraph. I do not think that many of the people on yesterday’s demonstration about the proposed hikes to tuition fees were hawking The Sunday Telegraph as some kind of revolutionary organ with which they could incite the crowd to further action.

The Sunday Telegraph refers to:

“More than 30 maternity and casualty units facing the axe”,

and provides us with a significant list of examples from all over the country. It also tells us that, as a result of the spending review, the NHS faces a bed-blocking crisis. It states that the permanent closures and downgrading of services agreed since May affect many hospitals.

[Mr Burns]

Give us some.

[Ian Mearns]

There is a long list. However, according to The Sunday Telegraph:

“Maternity units in Tiverton, Okehampton and Honiton, Devon: plan to downgrade services so they will not offer any midwife care overnight. Solihull Hospital: maternity unit was shut as a temporary measure just before the election. It re-opened in July as a midwife-led unit. Proposals to make the closure permanent due to be published within weeks”—

I could go on. For Hartlepool, in my region, we are told that there is a “proposal to close A&E” and that that will be

“replaced with minor injuries unit, and direct admissions for emergency medical cases.”

Of course, that comes on the back of the announcement a couple of months ago of the cancellation of the replacement North Tees hospital.

[Mr Burns]

I would hate the hon. Gentleman to mislead the Chamber. He can quote examples, but given that he is the Member for Gateshead, I would assume that he is familiar with this. Surely he knows that Hartlepool has withdrawn the application to close the A and E.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Simon Burns]

Old Labour.

[Derek Twigg]

No, not all old Labour at all. There has been a mix of Labour: young, old, new—some a bit younger than others. My hon. Friend the Member for Easington made some very important points about this being the worst settlement since the 1950s, and he raised the point about rising to the challenge of the financial settlements and the impact on social care. We heard many important points from my right hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley (Mr Barron) who, along with my right hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson), is probably the most experienced person in the Chamber, given his knowledge of the health service and his involvement in it over the years. One of those points was what the Nuffield Trust said about this being a real-terms cut, once the £1 billion that is being transferred from the NHS is taken out—I shall come back to that later. My right hon. Friend also made an important point about how the Government have used a Health Committee report to support their policies. His point was very clear, and he also raised the important issue of commissioning for GPs.

My hon. Friend the Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) made a very important point about NICE and drugs companies with reference to funding and influence. My hon. Friend the Member for West Lancashire (Rosie Cooper) has great experience in the health service. She is a near neighbour, and our areas successfully share the excellent women’s hospital in Liverpool. She made a number of powerful and important points about the reorganisation and cost pressures, and their effects on patient care. She also talked about Ministers not listening—[Interruption.] I know that the Minister has listened to what has been said in the Chamber, but Ministers’ listening will also be an important aspect of the reorganisation.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) made a powerful speech. I think he said that because he had believed what was in the Conservative and Liberal Democrat manifestos, he was somewhat disappointed—[Interruption.] Perhaps I got that wrong, but he made the point that what was said before the election and in the manifestos is not now being delivered.

[Derek Twigg]

I always carry a copy of the coalition’s programme for government—it is a fascinating read and, I must say, comforting at times.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham made some important points about mortality, the different life expectancy rates in his constituency, and the impact of the 28% cut on local government services, to which I shall return later in my speech.

[Mr Simon Burns]

I advise the shadow Minister to take the analysis of the right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) of the impact of the so-called figures that he used with a pinch of salt, because he also said that when he was as a Health Minister in 2001, he remembered the PCTs beginning to bed down. That was rather confusing, because of course the PCTs were not established until 2002.

[Derek Twigg]

The hon. Gentleman should have listened much more carefully to what my right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham said. He made a lot of good points, including one about GPs being put under pressure by the reorganisation due to the fact that some of them do not have the skills that it will require. That was a very powerful point, because many GPs are either opposed to or very uncertain about the Government’s proposed reorganisation.

My hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead (Ian Mearns) made a very impassioned speech about his own experience, his local health service, of which he has great knowledge, and the consequences of the Government’s actions for A and E and maternity units. He also made an important point about the great uncertainty in the health service as a result of the reorganisation—not just financially, but in all aspects of the service.

It is worth reiterating that we have had some successes in the health service, although many of them were achieved in recent years by the Labour Government rather than during the Conservatives’ 18 years in government. Back in 1997, I was regularly contacted by constituents who had to wait between 18 months and two years to have an operation. We have now got that time down to 18 weeks or fewer, and two to three weeks for cataracts. I set out that information because the Government will be measured on such things, although I am not sure whether they will be “outcomes”, “horizons” or “milestones”. A million more operations have been carried out each year since 1997, and there is now rapid access to chest complaint clinics. A large part of the NHS estate dates from before 1948, but we now have more than 100 new hospital building schemes and more than 90 NHS walk-in centres.

We have not achieved those gains for patients without sustained, deliberate and targeted investment. The combination of reform and investment that Labour undertook when in it was power has brought about tangible results for patients: heart disease deaths are down by more than a quarter; cancer mortality rates are down by more than a tenth; and breast cancer and male lung cancer death rates have been cut faster than anywhere else in the world. Under the cancer target, patients now see a cancer specialist within two weeks, which saves many lives. We made real investment and real change, and real people’s lives were made better. Let us see how the coalition intends to honour some of Labour’s guarantees. It has scrapped the right to cancer test results within one week of referral.

[Mr Burns]

Will the hon. Gentleman please explain in rational terms how something that was never in place can be scrapped?

[Derek Twigg]

As I said, that was one of our guarantees, and the Government have not taken forward those guarantees. They have gone against what we said, which was welcomed by many patients and organisations. Free prescriptions for vulnerable patients with long-term conditions have been scrapped and, in this Parliament, some 8,000 new psychological therapists have been scrapped.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Burns]

The shadow Minister is a reasonable and intelligent individual, so he knows that we did not scrap that target because it was never in place. All that happened was that the previous Prime Minister, at his party conference just over a year ago, made public an aspiration that was totally unfunded and totally untried against any clinical guarantee for quality.

[Derek Twigg]

The Minister should realise that he cannot meet what we proposed. I notice that he intervenes on that point, but not to congratulate us on the many improvements that we made in the NHS over the years. I look forward to hearing what he says about those improvements in his speech.

Returning to mental health, the Department of Health website says:

“Policy around mental health is developing…Mental health policy cannot be devised and implemented by any single government department or the NHS alone – it requires collaboration across central government, local government and the independent sector.”

We knew that already, did we not? However, the coalition has cut those 8,000 therapists. Of course the financial climate is difficult, and whomever was in government would have difficult choices and decisions to make, but the Prime Minister and the coalition have, again, broken their promises on health, which I want to explore, particularly with reference to the CSR.

For all the coalition’s boasts of ring-fencing the total NHS budget, the negligible 0.1% increase in NHS spending over the CSR period is low by historical standards, as we have heard. The King’s Fund has been cited, but let me give another quote from it:

“the NHS has averaged real terms increases of 4% a year since it was established and 7% since the turn of the century. The only similar period of near-zero real terms growth was in the early 1950s”—

I think that the Minister agrees. Spending in the NHS has increased from 6.6% of gross domestic product in 1996-97 to 8.7% in 2009-10.

The Minister might be interested to hear that the Royal College of Midwives has said:

“there are fears that a funding increase of 0.1% a year could be swallowed up by a rise in drugs, an ageing population, the cost of reorganisations and inflation.”

While we are on the subject of midwives, will the coalition deliver on the pre-election pledge to increase substantially the number of midwives, or will that be another broken promise?

Perhaps the Minister will want to respond to my next point. The CSR also announced that £1 billion will be transferred from the NHS budget to local councils for spending on social care. He will argue that that is designed to improve working relationships between the NHS and local social services departments, to improve health and to reduce costs on the NHS, such as by helping older people to stay healthy and independent in their homes. Of course, that is a good thing. However, the Government cannot have it both ways and double count. This is a real-terms change in NHS funding over the next four years. When we consider the net funding for social care support, there is a reduction of 0.5%, which is a real-terms cut.

[Mr Simon Burns]

indicated dissent.

[Derek Twigg]

The Nuffield Trust actually supports that point of view. This is a broken promise. Will the Minister confirm that not all the additional money for social services announced in the CSR is ring-fenced?

[Mr Burns]

I want to respond to the point that the shadow Minister made about the Nuffield Trust. He said that we were giving £1 billion to local authorities for social care, but we are not giving—[Interruption] I think that he did say that, but if he did not, we will wait for my speech.

[Derek Twigg]

Let me make it clear that £1 billion is being taken out of the NHS budget. Is that correct?

[Mr Burns]

Carry on.

[Derek Twigg]

Therefore that is a real-terms cut of 0.5%.

[Mr Burns]

indicated dissent.

[Derek Twigg]

I am asking the Minister to intervene. Has £1 billion been taken out of the NHS budget for social care?

[Mr Burns]

I will be careful because of the context in which the shadow Minister is trying to put the matter. We have made no secret of what we have done. Because of the lack of funding for social care and the demand for it, which we inherited, we have decided that we will use £1 billion out of the capital budget on social care and, at the same time, local authorities, through the revenue support grant, will provide another £1 billion. There will be £2 billion of extra money: £1 billion from the health service, which the health service will spend, and £1 billion through the RSG.

[Derek Twigg]

I am not sure about that, although I am always happy for the Minister to intervene. Will he confirm, just for the record, that £1 billion has been taken out of the NHS budget?

[Mr Burns]

indicated dissent.

[Derek Twigg]

I will carry on and we will take this up later during the Minister’s speech.

Will the Minister make clear whether the money has been ring-fenced? What what will be the impact on local services of the 28% cut in councils’ budgets over the next four years, which was announced as part of the CSR? We must not forget the increase in VAT to 20% from January, which several of my colleagues mentioned, which will do little to enhance the NHS’s spending power. It is little wonder that the King’s Fund feels it necessary to warn:

“slashing budgets and cutting services should not be the answer to the financial challenge facing the NHS.”

I cannot allow the Government to get away with another disastrous decision for the NHS and it will be interesting to see what the Minister has to say about this.

The NHS has accumulated £1.8 billion of capital and £3.7 billion of revenue underspend. It would normally be allowed to keep that money to reinvest in patient care or to help deal with future overspends, but the CSR has abolished end-of-year flexibility. Perhaps the Minister would like to deny that or tell me that we have got it wrong.

What estimate has the Minister made of the number of job losses and redundancies in the NHS that will occur as a result of the CSR? What will be the impact on waiting times in the spending review period? What is his estimate of the number of nurses who will be employed in the NHS at the end of the spending period? What measures has he implemented to deal with winter pressures? How many specialist nursing posts will be left vacant at the end of this financial year? I have many other questions. We do not have time to go into them now, but I shall be tabling a lot of written questions for the Minister to answer.

We now move on to another broken promise in the context of the CSR, which has been the subject of a fair bit of comment. An ideologically inspired, top-down reorganisation of the NHS has been proposed. It has been put forward in defiance of the coalition agreement. The approach is untested and threatens the viability of the NHS. I remind hon. and right hon. Members that the coalition agreement says:

“we will stop top-down reorganisations of the NHS”—

another broken promise. Here is a straight question for the Minister: why, as many believe, did his party hide their plans for such a massive reorganisation from the public? Why did it make no mention of the scale of the proposed changes in its manifesto or election campaign? This is the biggest reorganisation in NHS history. The King’s Fund estimates the actual cost at some £3 billion, and that is at a time when the NHS can ill afford it. The British Medical Association has stated:

“these proposals risk undermining the stability and long-term future of the NHS”.

What is the Minister’s latest estimate of the financial cost of the reorganisation, and will he publish the rationale underpinning the assumption for those costs?

The coalition talks about reducing waste, but the 45% cuts in strategic health authorities and primary care trust management will save just £850 million of the £15 billion to £20 billion of efficiencies that are required. I could not agree more with the words of my right hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey):

“This reorganisation is untested and unnecessary. It is high cost and high risk. At this time when finances are tight, all efforts should be bent to making sound efficiencies and improve patient care. We are in favour of giving clinicians greater responsibility and patients a greater say in their healthcare. NHS experts, professional bodies and patient groups say ‘slow down’, because this big reorganisation is a big risk for the NHS.”

Trade unions such as Unison, the RCN and Unite, who represent many who work in the NHS, have raised genuine concerns, but we do not believe that the Secretary of State is listening to what is being said.

As part of these changes, there is danger of fragmentation, of more of a postcode lottery and of doctors’ time being diverted from their main role of looking after their patients. We need to know the extent and nature of future private sector involvement in running the health service. How and to whom will organisations be accountable? How can we deal with current overspends in organisations, which my right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham mentioned?

Will the Secretary of State and the Chancellor listen to the appeal of patient groups, Royal Colleges practitioners and other health staff, or is he bent on setting his face against the view from the coal face—from the same professionals whom his party’s manifesto says we should trust to deliver services?

I want to mention another important issue: the proposed stealth cuts to the funding of specialist children’s hospitals, which will affect the hospitals that treat some of the most severely ill children in the country. The Prime Minister promised that the health budget would be “protected”. In an interview with Andrew Marr on 2 May 2010, he said that he

“would not accept cuts to the NHS”.

It is unarguable that specialist children’s services are the front line, so even that is not being protected. This is another promise broken by the Prime Minister.

The Secretary of State is not being straight on this matter. During oral questions on 2 November, he told my right hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St Pancras that the hospital that my right hon. Friend asked about would face a 2% cut under the proposed tariff changes. That is bad enough, but it is contradicted by the trust’s own assessment of those changes, which suggests that they will bring about much larger cuts. Will the Minister set out—I ask him this carefully—what the situation is and how much funding the hospitals will lose?

I will give a couple of examples of the figures that we have received from the hospitals involved. Great Ormond Street hospital, which is in the constituency of my right hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St Pancras, will face a cut of £16.3 million. In Birmingham, the cut will be £12.8 million, and at Alder Hey hospital, on the doorstep of my constituency, it will be £12.9 million. Will the Minister confirm what the funding cuts will be and how much those hospitals will lose? What figures have the hospitals provided to the Department in their assessments of the cuts? Will he make public any assessment that has been sent to his officials about the impact of the tariff changes?

I do not feel that Liberal Democrat or Conservative Members have realised the true extent of what the coalition Government are doing to the health service and the impact that it will have on their constituencies. Perhaps they are not in the Chamber because they find the measures difficult to support. As the impact of the health cuts becomes clearer, I believe that hon. Members will become more worried and will seek answers to the broken promises of the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State.

There have been broken promises on NHS funding to protect front-line services, and broken promises about structural change. Hon. Members might ask why the Secretary of State is forcing the NHS into a major reorganisation that costs valuable time and resources at a time that the King’s Fund and the NHS Confederation have called the biggest financial challenge of its life. I assure the Minister and the Secretary of State that we will hold the coalition Government to account for what they have said and what they will do.

[The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon Burns)]

I begin by thanking the Backbench Business Committee for and congratulating the hon. Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris) on this interesting debate. In passing, let me say what a difference six months makes. Six and a half months ago, all the Labour Members who are sitting on the opposite side of the Chamber were in government. Some of the examples of reconfigurations and decisions taken on the health service happened under the last Labour Government, although some hon. Members seemed oblivious to that as they criticised what is happening.

[Grahame M. Morris]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Burns]

One moment; let me make a start. We have taken difficult decisions and, as I will explain, we have honoured our election pledge on a real-terms increase, albeit a modest one, as a number of hon. Members, including the hon. Member for West Lancashire (Rosie Cooper), pointed out. However, no hon. Member tried to explain why that increase had to be so modest, which amazed me. The reason was, quite simply, our inheritance of the most horrendous debt and deficit problems, left to us by the previous Government. That would have tied the hands of any party, including those of the Labour party had it won the election. Rest assured, if the previous Government had been re-elected, they would have been making serious cuts.

Having listened to a number of speeches, it is slightly ironic that some hon. Members present seem to be oblivious to the fact that one of the Labour leadership candidates during the recent campaign, the former Secretary of State for Health, the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham), criticised us for honouring our pledge of a real-terms increase in NHS funding. He said that it was a disgrace that we were keeping to that pledge and that, in the overall spending programme, we should not be honouring our pledge of a real-terms increase in health spending. I find that a bizarre proposition from a former Labour Secretary of State for Health, but that was his view and his decision. Judging by the faces of some Labour Members, they seem oblivious to the fact that the right hon. Gentleman criticised us about that. That somewhat undercuts the arguments that I have heard today from those who say that we have broken our promise and not kept to a real-terms increase. They will have to make their mind up one way or another.

[Grahame M. Morris]

rose—

[Mr Burns]

Because I have such affection for the hon. Gentleman, I shall give way to him.

[Grahame M. Morris]

The Minister has just destroyed my reputation. My point is about the cost of the reorganisation at what is a difficult time for the economy. Why embark on an expensive major restructuring of the health service? It does not make any sense. Previous reorganisations were expensive and time consuming. Surely, if we learn anything from evidence, it is that now is not the time to do this. Another top-down reorganisation is the last thing we need.

[Mr Burns]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention, and I am sure that his reputation will survive my praise of him. I shall, in my own way, come to the point that he raises.

Before I begin to explain why we have not broken our election pledge, let me congratulate the hon. Member for Halton (Derek Twigg). He is a dedicated and decent man who was always an exemplary Minister when he was in government. I am delighted to see him back on his party’s Front Bench, albeit in a shadow ministerial post, and I wish him well in his endeavours. I trust that he will be doing the job for many years to come and that the same fate will not befall him as sadly befell him when he left the previous Government: ironically—I grieve as much as he does about this—his place was taken by someone who was ostensibly a Tory, who was, for some bizarre reason, embraced with both arms by previous Prime Minister. It is great to see the hon. Gentleman back, and I look forward to many debates over the coming years as our careers continue.

This debate goes to the heart of two of the coalition Government’s main priorities: bringing the public finances back on to a sustainable footing and ensuring the future health of the nation. Our manifesto commitment, reiterated in the coalition agreement, was to increase spending on the NHS in real terms for every year of this Parliament. Notwithstanding the comments of some hon. Members, I am tremendously proud of the fact that we have kept the faith and honoured that pledge. Before anybody jumps up to try to intervene, let me remind them that I am proud of keeping that pledge.

The right hon. Member for Leigh, the former Secretary of State in the outgoing Labour Government, has criticised my party for keeping that pledge because he thought it was wrong. It would be difficult for any Labour Member to claim that we have broken the pledge, because, by definition, if we have broken the pledge, the right hon. Gentleman is factually incorrect in his criticism of us. It is a bit of a dilemma for Labour Members.

[Mr Barron]

rose—

[Mr Burns]

I give way to the former Chair of the Health Committee.

[Mr Barron]

What does the Minister say when the Nuffield Trust states that the Government have broken the pledge by reducing spending by 0.5%?

[Mr Burns]

We will come to that point. Whenever there is a parliamentary briefing or statement for a debate that fits the prejudices that Labour Members want to project—their straitjacket—that is fine, but anything that does not conform to their prejudices or prejudged views, or to the facts, such as the comments from the King’s Fund on which I kept pressing the hon. Member for Easington, which confirmed its view that we had honoured our pledge and made a real-terms increase, they dismiss as fiction. I am afraid that I do not share the support offered by the right hon. Member for Rother Valley (Mr Barron) for the views in the Nuffield Trust document.

I will come on to social care spending, because I know that the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Halton, made quite a lot of that. I will try, in a longer period than I would have in an intervention, to show that he is wrong and the Government are right.

[Frank Dobson]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Burns]

I will, but then I must make progress.

[Frank Dobson]

What is the Government’s estimate of the money that will be consumed by the process of reorganisation during the process of reorganisation?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Burns]

I will briefly answer that now; I was going to come to it later. The figure that has been bandied around by shadow Ministers, Labour Back Benchers and so on is £3 billion. The Department does not recognise that figure. We recognise the figure that the previous Secretary of State for Health, the right hon. Member for Leigh, put in this year’s Budget, which is 1.7%. He put that in specifically for reorganisational purposes under a Labour Government. That is the only figure—[Interruption.] That is the only figure that we recognise.

[Derek Twigg]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Burns]

Once, then I will make progress.

[Derek Twigg]

The Minister is using a figure that was in the Budget for reorganisation. I assume that that reorganisation is not the reorganisation that his Government are proposing, so have he, the Department and his officials made any assessment of the cost of their reorganisation? That cannot in any way be linked to a figure that was laid down by the previous Government; it is bizarre if it is. If they have made such an assessment, what is the rationale for it and will he publish it?

[Mr Burns]

I am saying that the previous Secretary of State had built in to this year’s Budget a £1.7 billion figure for reorganisational purposes and we recognise that amount of money as money that can or could be used for reorganisational purposes. On the question of the full figures, we will publish in due course our response to the consultation process on the White Paper and the documents that flowed from that White Paper. Also, we will respond on any decisions that we have taken emanating from that consultation process. We will also publish the Bill, which will flesh out more of the details where details need fleshing out.

As a number of hon. Members mentioned, there are parts of the Bill where we are not prescriptive and we are not dictating, down to the last dotting of an i and crossing of a t, what has to happen. That will be down to local decisions. That will then put us in a position—

[Derek Twigg]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Burns]

No. That will then put us in a position to move forward on the implementation and funding the costs of those changes. I shall now move on to deal with the rest of the issue. This year, before we spend a single—

[Frank Dobson]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Burns]

No. I gave way to the right hon. Gentleman once and I said that I would then make progress, because the purpose of my speech is twofold: to outline our view on the subject—

[Mr Lammy]

What are you scared of?

[Mr Burns]

I am not scared of anything. The purpose of my speech is to outline the Government’s view on the subject, rather than simply, as in an Adjournment debate, answering every single point from hon. Members who have contributed. I will not fall into the trap of being sidetracked into answering, as in an Adjournment debate, all the points that have been raised. I will certainly deal with those that I can deal with in the time available, but I shall primarily give the Government’s view on the topic before us, so I beg some indulgence from hon. Members as they listen and learn why we have kept our pledge.

I shall start again. This year, before we spend a single penny on health, education, defence or anything else, we shall have to pay £43 billion simply to service the interest on our debts. That is £120 million a day and more than £83,000 a minute. Those who are mathematicians will realise that during this three-hour debate that will have cost us £15 million. The colossal debt racked up by the previous Government is crippling the country. That is why, through my right hon. Friend the Chancellor, we have had to act decisively to lay the foundations for setting the economy back on track. The country simply could not continue to sustain such debt and payment of debt interest.

When the Chancellor stood at the Dispatch Box last month to deliver the spending review, he set a course for sustainable finances. He set out our plans to turn the country round, so that by the end of this Parliament our national debt will be falling, instead of rising, as a proportion of national income. To achieve that, over the next four years we need to reduce public spending by £81 billion. Difficult decisions have had to be taken, and more lie ahead, but the result will be a strong economy, more jobs and sustainable public services. As I have said, just as important as reducing the deficit is protecting and improving the nation’s health.

[Paul Flynn]

On a point of order, Mr Gale. There is a tradition in this place that Ministers making the winding-up speech reply to the debate. This Minister has been speaking for 14 minutes and has not mentioned a single point made in the debate.

[Mr Roger Gale (in the Chair)]

The hon. Gentleman has been in the House long enough to know that the Minister is responsible for his own speech and his own remarks.

[Mr Burns]

The hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) probably is not aware, because this is a new form of debate following the setting up of the Backbench Business Committee, that I am not winding up the debate, even if I am speaking last. I am making a speech on the Government’s position on the subject that we are debating, and I will certainly—on occasions, where appropriate—refer to and answer hon. Members’ questions, although I have to say to the hon. Gentleman that I probably will not answer any of his questions because he was not taking part in the same debate that is on shown on the annunciator. He was having a general roam-about on NICE and pharmaceuticals, rather than speaking on the spending review and health.

[Derek Twigg]

That is very unkind.

[Mr Burns]

No, it is not. It is a fact, and the hon. Gentleman knows it.

As I said before the intervention and the point of order, just as important as reducing the deficit is protecting and improving the nation’s health. That is why I am proud that we have kept our pledge to protect the NHS budget. More than that, it will receive an increase of 0.4% over the next four years. In this difficult financial climate, that demonstrates the Government’s determination to provide the best care and the best outcomes for patients.

This year, the NHS budget is £103.8 billion. That will rise to £114.4 billion by 2014-15. No matter how anyone looks at that, it is obvious that it is a real-terms increase. A number of people who have sent in briefings for this debate and who have commented on the spending review have echoed the view that I have just outlined. It is a self-evident fact that it is a real-terms increase, however much Opposition Members prefer to say that it is not. The facts do not bear out that criticism.

[Derek Twigg]

What about social care?

[Mr Burns]

The shadow Minister must be patient; I will come to social care.

The Department’s capital budget will be sufficient to ensure that key schemes that have already been agreed are continued and that the NHS estate is properly maintained. The NHS capital budget will pay for, among other things, publicly funded projects at North Cumbria University Hospitals NHS Trust, Pennine Acute Hospitals NHS Trust, and Epsom and St Helier University Hospitals NHS Trust.

Notwithstanding the real-terms increase in funding, we always knew that the NHS was facing challenging times. That is self-evident and we have never sought to hide behind it; everyone recognises it. As a number of hon. Members said, that challenge is due to an ageing population, expensive treatments, and health care and social care costs rising substantially every year. That is why the NHS and social care need to do more with their resources and make every penny count. In health, we are asking the NHS to secure, as a number of hon. Members said, up to £20 billion of efficiency savings over the next four years through the QIPP—quality, innovation, productivity and prevention—programme.

In addition, every penny of those savings will be reinvested in front-line services, enabling us to meet the costs of increased demand for care. The savings will come from cutting administration costs across the system by a third, as well as from other efficiencies throughout the NHS. Frequently, better care can save money. It is cheaper, as well as better for people, to get the right care first time, rather than the inappropriate or insufficiently relevant care that is involved when people have to go back to be provided with extra care—an expensive way to provide care and not an experience that patients should have.

[Rosie Cooper]

I appreciate what the Minister is saying, but does he not agree that radical change to or redesign of a system often requires investment to get those costs out at the end? We are hearing about lots of cost cutting, but there are no obvious signs of a process or pathway where investment is taking place to get those gains out.

[Mr Burns]

In the overall run of things, the hon. Lady makes a genuine point, but most of the cost cutting that I heard about during the speeches involved accusations of services being cut without the reasons for the status of what are, in many cases, reconfigurations being gone into. Also, until conclusions have been reached, there is no guarantee that those reconfigurations will happen. They might do so, but there is no automatic guarantee that, just because there is to be a reconfiguration, the end product will be what was first proposed.

Furthermore, I heard very little comment—indeed, I do not think that anyone passed comment, although I apologise if someone did—on the QIPP programme, which is so important and vital for raising standards, using innovation to improve quality of care and delivery. In that, we have examples across the country of the NHS finding changes that can make a big difference.

For example, Southend Hospital NHS Trust is saving £160,000 a year by mapping postcodes—patients who live near each other can be picked up together for their dialysis appointments. Oxford Radcliffe Hospitals NHS Trust is saving £1 million a year by implementing an electronic blood transfusion system, which cuts the staff time taken to deliver blood and reduces transfusion errors, thereby improving services for patients. Ten NHS trusts have been piloting a new pathway to improve care for patients, mainly elderly people who have suffered a fractured neck of femur. If that were rolled out across the country, it could save £75 million a year.

Those are just small examples of things that can be done where savings are made, the quality and appropriateness of care improve, and money can be ploughed back into front-line services, which is so important.

While we are talking about resources, I shall answer the important question asked by the right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson). He specifically mentioned Great Ormond Street hospital, but this applies across all the specialist children’s hospitals. The Department is having ongoing discussions with Great Ormond Street and the other relevant hospitals in England about potential—I emphasise “potential”—changes to the tariff for specialist children’s hospitals for 2011-12.

I can tell the right hon. Gentleman that no decisions have yet been taken and the discussions are continuing. On his specific question about how much less money is going to be given, there is no answer at the moment, because no decisions have been taken. The discussions will continue. I hope, for the time being, that he is reassured by that answer.

[Frank Dobson]

Can the Minister confirm that Great Ormond Street hospital was asked to do without £16 million during the course of those wondrous negotiations he is talking about?

[Mr Burns]

No, but I will confirm that discussions with the hospital are ongoing and, flowing from that, decisions will be reached in due course. At this point it would be inappropriate for me to interfere by giving any confirmation or denials of anything, because the situation does not arise in that context. Discussions are going on, and no decisions have been made. We will have to see once the discussions are concluded.

[Frank Dobson]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Burns]

I cannot see how much more I can say, because my answer seemed fairly conclusive.

[Derek Twigg]

rose—

[Mr Burns]

Does the hon. Gentleman want to intervene about social care, which I want to move on to?

[Derek Twigg]

No, it is on the specific point that has just been made.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Burns]

I can say nothing further than what I said to the right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras, so I shall make progress. There is nothing further to say—I have answered the question. [Interruption.]

[Mr Roger Gale (in the Chair)]

Order. We cannot have such discussions going on across the Chamber. Either the Minister will give way or he will not.

[Mr Burns]

I will not give way because there is little more that I can add to what I have already said on the subject.

[Frank Dobson]

rose—

[Mr Burns]

I shall make progress, because I have made the situation plain.

[Frank Dobson]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Roger Gale (in the Chair)]

That is not a point of order for the Chair, Mr Dobson.

[Mr Burns]

All I can tell the right hon. Gentleman is the situation as it is known to me: no decisions have been made and discussions are continuing. In due course, decisions will be reached, but as of now none has been made and the discussions continue.

[Frank Dobson]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Burns]

I honestly do not see what more I can say—my answer seems fairly conclusive, so I will make progress. If the right hon. Gentleman wants to have a quick word with me afterwards, I am more than happy to do so.

Moving on to social care, which a number of hon. Members and the shadow Minister have mentioned—

[Frank Dobson]

On a point of order, Mr Gale—as I understand it, the Department of Health has been briefing that it wants to take away only £4 million from Great Ormond Street.

[Mr Roger Gale (in the Chair)]

Order. That is not a point of order for the Chair. The right hon. Gentleman has been in the House long enough to know that.

[Mr Burns]

On the issue of social care, it is accepted by all parties that we need to be more efficient. There have been historic problems in the funding of social care and we found that, given the mounting pressures and the economic situation when we came to power, there was a serious problem that needed to be addressed so as to provide support in the forthcoming year and thereafter for some of the most frail and vulnerable members of society.

We believe, as I am sure the hon. Member for Halton does, that re-ablement services can restore someone’s independence. They have a crucial role to play, where appropriate. Around half of those who go through re-ablement require no immediate care package afterwards. The NHS is investing £70 million this year, £150 million in 2011-12 and £300 million a year for the rest of this Parliament in better re-ablement services. That will have a significant impact on improving the lives of many people.

Telecare, too, can help keep people safe and feeling more confident in their own homes, reducing their reliance on formal home care services. These are not isolated cases. There are similar remarkable stories across the country.

Re-ablement can make a real difference, provided that the authorities act seamlessly and quickly to ensure the equipment and anything else needed to assist someone to return home, avoiding a stay in a hospital, care home or any other non-domestic environment.

[Derek Twigg]

We will pursue the issue about specialist children’s hospitals, but I will now concentrate on the issue of the £1 billion that the NHS has set aside for, or put into, social care. No one argues that putting more money into social care is not a good thing, but we want to ensure that there is no double counting. The Minister confirms that £1 billion has been set aside, but will some of that money, or all of it, be used to fund the social care side of those services provided by local authorities?

[Mr Burns]

If I may, I shall start on that point in my own way, as I want to give the setting for the whole social care thing. I know that the hon. Gentleman and the right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) have shown considerable interest in the matter.

The shadow Minister accepts that the NHS does not stand alone. It is only one part of this country’s care system; another essential service is social care, which helps hundreds of thousands of people to live as independently as possible. As I said earlier, when the Government were elected, we found a huge hole in funding for social care. That affects some of the most frail and vulnerable, and we believe that it is imperative to do something immediately to make up some of the shortfall. As the shadow Minister will know, the Department of Health has always funded social care—not all of it, but part of it—and local authorities have funded the other part. In some areas, there is a means test under the National Assistance Act 1948, so there are possibly three funding streams. I hope that I carry the shadow Minister with me.

To redress the funding gap in social care, the NHS will transfer up to £1 billion from the health capital budget to the health revenue budget by 2014-15. That will be spent by the health service on measures that support social care as well as health. That will include a specific allocation for re-ablement services to help people regain confidence and independence following discharge from hospital. We believe that this will help hundreds of thousands of people to live as independently as possible. To the person who uses both services, it makes no sense that health and care should be separate. I hope that I have given the shadow Minister sufficient explanation.

[Derek Twigg]

rose—

[Mr Burns]

If I carry on for another minute, the hon. Gentleman may not need to intervene.

As well as the extra £1 billion that the Department of Health is making available for NHS social care, additional grant funding—again, rising to £1 billion by 2014-15—will be made available for social care through the revenue support grant. By 2014-15, the total additional funding for social care will amount to £2 billion, half from the NHS and half in grant funding. That will be allocated in addition to the Department’s existing social care grants, which will rise in line with inflation. In total, therefore, grant funding from the Department of Health for social care will reach £2.4 billion by 2014-15. I hope that that explains the situation for the shadow Minister.

[Derek Twigg]

I want to be clear about it, so I put the question again. How much of the £1 billion that is being taken from the NHS budget will be spent on services that council and local authority social services provide?

[Mr Burns]

The £1 billion will come from the NHS capital fund and be transferred to the NHS resources fund. It will then be spent by the NHS on re-ablement and other sorts of help and care for which the NHS is responsible. The NHS is responsible for the social care element of the assistance required by those in need. [Interruption.] So that the shadow Minister understands, on top of that, £1 billion will be coming from local government through the RSG.

[Derek Twigg]

It is in here.

[Mr Burns]

The shadow Minister says that it is in the document, as if it has suddenly occurred to him, but I am going through it slowly so that he gets it. Some of the letters that we have received are not quite right.

[Grahame M. Morris]

It is an important point, and an issue that the Select Committee has considered. Evidence presented to the Committee shows that, over the lifetime of this Parliament and beyond, the gap between funding and demand will grow. There will be an ongoing problem of underfunding in social care. I would not like the Minister to give the impression that this demographic time bomb can be resolved by this single measure.

[Mr Burns]

The hon. Gentleman is right. I do not claim that the demographic time bomb will be resolved by this measure. The trouble with personal social care is an historic one; Governments have always been playing catch-up. That is beyond dispute. I am saying that we recognised the growing pressures, and we believed that we had to act. That is why we have done so. It will reduce the problem, but the hon. Gentleman is right that it will not solve it, as more work has to be done. No doubt, it will be done, as we catch up with the past. I hope that I have reassured the hon. Gentleman. I now wish to make progress.

We believe that funding social care is important not only in its own right but for the sake of the hundreds of thousands of people who rely on it—and because the NHS cannot function without social care. Without it, people have to stay in hospital beds for longer, inappropriately blocking beds that other patients could use. It is important that we invest the money to ensure that there are no delayed discharges, and that we can provide an appropriate setting for those who are discharged.

[Rosie Cooper]

I thank the Minister for giving way. I am trying to be helpful. My hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris) is right. The Select Committee suggested that there was a £3 billion or £3.5 billion gap. Evidence to the Committee clearly showed that local authorities believed that if they invested a pound, the saving and the benefit was likely to be seen in the health service through exactly what the Minister mentioned—beds not being blocked and so on. This might help my hon. Friend the Member for Halton (Derek Twigg), the shadow Minister; I suggested in Committee that the element of funding that lies currently with local authorities should be transferred to the NHS. We would not then have such a gap. The local authorities resisted, but the core of the problem that both Front Benches are outlining is that the £1 billion that the councils have is not ring-fenced and will be spent on whatever provisions are desperately needed. The money that the Minister says is for the NHS will be spent only on NHS re-ablement and other stuff that is absolutely within the NHS, but the local authorities do not believe that. They think that it will be dropped on their toes at any minute, and that they can spend it.

[Mr Burns]

I fully understand the issue that the hon. Lady raised about whether we merge the NHS part of social care in local government into the NHS, or vice versa. That has been an ongoing debate for many years. The hon. Lady may find it difficult to believe, but 13 years ago I was the Minister with responsibility for social care. The argument was raging then. I have no doubt that it will continue to rage for some time to come. I, too, have heard the worries that the money that comes through the RSG will not be spent on social care. From the discussions that the NHS has had with local authorities, I have been led to believe that that will not be such a problem. Given that there is a problem with social care and a need to provide support, there will be a determination and a positive attitude to ensure that the money is appropriately spent on what it is designed for and that it will, with the money from the NHS, make a significant difference to a very serious and sensitive problem that we, as a society, have to address.

In conclusion, the spending review is the necessary consequence of this Government’s facing up to the financial responsibilities and problems that we inherited when we came to power. If we are to secure a future of growth, prosperity and jobs and if we are to fulfil our commitment to increase funding for the NHS in real terms for every year of this Parliament, then we must place our public finances on a stable, sustainable footing.

We will not ask the sick, the disabled or the elderly to pay the price of the previous Government’s economic mismanagement. We are increasing the health budget in real terms and reforming the service, not only to make the most of every penny but to put power in the hands of those who know best how to improve services. I am talking not about the Ministers and civil servants in Whitehall but about the NHS staff and patients on the ground.

[Mr Roger Gale (in the Chair)]

Mr Morris has indicated that he wishes to make a few closing remarks with the consent of the Members present. I am perfectly prepared to facilitate that, but the hon. Gentleman must understand that these are closing remarks, and that he is not actually responding to the entire debate all over again.