Health (CSR)

Frank Dobson Excerpts

Thursday 11th November 2010 Westminster Hall

[Mr Barron]

I had nothing to do with the interventions, Mr Gale, apart from giving way. There is no plan or plot. I thought I would seize the opportunity to talk about the commissioning report, because the current Health Committee is looking again at commissioning and the House has not had the opportunity to debate the report and the Government’s response, which came in July.

In relation to the latest intervention, at the last Health Question Time the Minister attempted to reply to what I said about major reorganisations in the health service. It is well known now that they take years to embed, are normally very expensive and usually have a negative effect on performance while they happen. That has happened under every major NHS reorganisation in the last 20 or 30 years. That is the truth of the matter. If the estimate of the increase in costs arising from the reorganisation is right, the CSR will have a significant impact on the NHS in the future.

[Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab)]

Beside the financial impact of reorganisation, even more important is the fact that large numbers of clinicians and others working in the NHS are distracted from their day job of looking after patients to go to innumerable meetings and discussions. In some cases, they even have to reapply for their current jobs. That is all to do with the reorganisation, so it wastes staff time, as well as wasting money.

[Mr Barron]

I think that there is some evidence in relation to that. Having said that, the evidence that we should be concerned about is the evidence that has come out in surveys recently about what GPs think about the proposed reorganisation.

I have in front of me a press release from what is probably the strongest trade union that we have in the United Kingdom, which is the BMA. The BMA does not like to be called a trade union, but, indeed, that is what it is. Along with the Minister’s favourite organisation, the King’s Fund, the BMA conducted a survey of doctors. I will quote from the results of that survey:

“Asked if the reforms would improve patient care, 38 per cent of doctors who responded either said they did not know, or said they neither agreed nor disagreed. Less than a quarter believed patient care would be improved.”

Obviously surveys are surveys—we do not know what question was asked. In addition, I think that the number of doctors who responded to that survey was quite low. I would not lay great store in it, and the Minister probably has the figures from the survey in front of him. However, I want to point out what Dr Hamish Meldrum of the BMA said about the White Paper. He said that it had “many positive aspects” but added:

“Giving more power to clinicians has the potential to improve the quality and cost-effectiveness of patient care, but as this survey reflects, doctors believe that many of the proposals in the white paper would make joint working much harder.”

He continued:

“GP-led commissioning will only be successful if there is effective integration between different parts of the NHS, but some of the proposals in the white paper will accelerate competition and fragmentation.”

That comment takes me back to the question that I posed to the Minister about whether those local GP consortiums can include other people who work in the NHS, such as consultants, other people from the local hospital or providers of primary care services. Can such people sit on those consortiums or is it exclusively GPs who will do the commissioning?

I will not go into much detail, but I want to refer briefly to the comment that the coalition said that these proposed changes are not “top down”. I appreciate that this debate might not be the right forum in which to debate that issue much further, Mr Gale, but what is the national commissioning board going to do if not act in a “top-down” manner?

There is good evidence—I do not think it has been denied by the Department of Health—that if a local GP consortium were to fail, the national commissioning board would intervene. I want to know what is the difference in concept between the national commissioning board and Richmond house. We have had about 40 years of battles between the NHS at local level and central Government, over central Government trying to give direction to the NHS at local level. How will that change?

Before I sit down I have a nice easy question for the Minister. I have here a press release that went out on 21 October, and the heading reads:

“New support for GPs will cut the costs of commissioning”.

The press release continues:

“A new series of resources to support GP Consortia to design and commission services for patients was announced today by Health Secretary Andrew Lansley”.

It says that those resources

“will provide… a set of tools and templates to use when designing and buying services for their patients. The first of these support packs published today is for cardiac rehabilitation services”.

We are apparently saving money with GP commissioning, so I want the Minister to tell us what evidence he has that this new system will save money and cut the costs of commissioning? I ask that question because such evidence—evidence of how commissioning had cut costs—was one of the holy grails that the Health Committee could never find. It has been said in the debate, and it is well evidenced, that the changes in commissioning that we have had during the past few decades have done anything but cut costs. In fact, they have increased them.

I will finish by saying that the Health Committee’s report on commissioning that was published in March said that we need to look wholesale at the past 20 years of payment by results, because payment by results is not working no matter what shape it comes in. We said that quite clearly in the report.

I do not necessarily want to make radical changes to commissioning, but I do want things to be better for patients and the public, and I am not convinced that the outcome of the White Paper will be better treatment for patients and the public, nor am I convinced about the evidence that the CSR’s effect on health will be a better outcome for patients and the public. As I said, organisations such as the Nuffield Trust, which have great experience of our national health care system, are talking about a reduction of 0.5% in NHS spending. I fear that that will happen, and it is not what was in people’s manifestos before the general election. I want the Minister to tell us what he thinks about that.

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

I am very grateful for the opportunity to speak in this debate and I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley (Mr Barron) and my hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris) on their very illuminating speeches.

I will not follow the lines that my right hon. and hon. Friends have taken. However, I note that the comprehensive spending review has been described as generous by some. If we want to see a generous settlement in next year’s spending, it is the settlement that has been given to the landowners and farmers of the country, especially when one recalls that the price of wheat has gone up by 47% and the price of lamb has gone up even more. Not only will the £3 billion that was given out in handouts to the farming industry be protected but it will probably be increased by 3%. Now, there is generosity from a Government.

When one considers what is behind this CSR, one is filled with a sense of despair; we have a new Government with new myths and new jargon, and we will have new errors too. An example of a piece of new jargon is that the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence is about to be emasculated and replaced by something called “value-based pricing”. It sounds attractive, but we know that it will not work because the pharmaceutical industry supports it and the pharmaceutical industry has a long record over the years of demonstrating that the only thing that it supports is increased prices and an increased share of the cake for itself. That is what has gone on.

At least with NICE, we had a modicum of control over the increases in the price of pharmaceutical products and the increasing share that the pharmaceutical industry had of the NHS; a share that the industry took away for itself, consequently depriving other parts of the NHS.

We know of examples of that practice by the pharmaceutical industry, mostly involving anti-cancer drugs. One drug was promoted as an answer to pancreatic cancer. One of my constituents was very much involved in this field, and I did some research myself to find out exactly what that drug offered. As far as The Sun, the Daily Mail and all the other tabloids were concerned, this was a miracle drug that had to be obtained for patients and it was only the “mean” Government who were not allowing patients to obtain it. Having gone into the details of what this drug achieved, I found that it cost £16,000 a year and that it increased life expectancy by 12 days, but it caused side effects in 10% of the patients who used it, including death. The other side effects were so dreadful and destroyed patients’ dignity to such an extent that their 12 days of extra life were of no value and would possibly even have been an increased burden to themselves and their loved ones. As is the case with many other drugs now, however, that drug was being pushed by the pharmaceutical company and its agents.

If we take away the power of NICE to make objective, scientific judgments, we will have the power of the tabloids and the lobbyists replacing it, and the patients associations will all join in behind them. We will have campaigns to persuade us; we will have patients on the television making appeals, patients who will be good-looking and who will arouse our sympathy. The pressure will then be on to alter the priorities of the health service to accord with the demands of the pharmaceutical industry. This is a surrender from a reliance on objective, science-based judgments to a reliance on the prejudice-rich decisions of the tabloid press and “big pharma”. Will the Minister guarantee that the price of drugs will go down?

[Frank Dobson]

Does my hon. Friend accept that the 150 drugs that are most commonly prescribed in this country are half the price that they are in the United States, where the pharmaceutical industry, roughly speaking, determines the price of drugs? We can guarantee that prices will start to go up under the new system.

[Mr Roger Gale (in the Chair)]

Order. There is a very interesting debate to be had on those issues, but the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) has been in the House a long time, and the right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson), who has just intervened, has been Secretary of State for Health and both are aware that, while the subject may be interesting, it is not to do with the comprehensive spending review, which is the title of the debate.

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[Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab)]

Thank you for allowing me to contribute to this debate under your chairmanship, Mr Gale. I am a passionate advocate for the national health service. For more than 30 years, I have been directly involved in it. Through the health authority, I was chair of Liverpool Women’s hospital for 10 years; just before I became an MP, we took the hospital to foundation status. I am also currently a member of the Select Committee on Health.

I explain my background because I want the Minister to understand that I have witnessed at first hand the roller coaster that the NHS has been on—reorganisations, crises, investment, disinvestment and improvements—as it has sought to deal with a dramatically changing world and shifting demands and expectations. However, today the NHS faces perhaps its most far-reaching and fundamental challenge since its inception. I will lay out some of the challenges for the future of the NHS that will be driven directly by the Department of Health settlement in the comprehensive spending review.

The Chancellor’s announcement in the CSR that health would receive a real-terms increase of 0.1% revealed the tension and struggle that will define the future of the health service. It is not exaggerating to say that decisions in the CSR and subsequently in the Department of Health are life-and-death decisions. We cannot afford to play Russian roulette with the future of the people’s health services.

We must disregard the rhetoric and myth-making of the Conservatives as they seek to demonstrate that they have changed when it comes to the NHS. Sadly for the health service, I am not convinced that they have changed at all. Before the general election, the now Prime Minister pledged clearly to end the merry-go-round of organisational change and to protect NHS funding. Those two clear and definitive statements would have suggested to voters a period of stability and continuity for the NHS, even in these difficult and challenging economic times.

There was certainly no indication at that point of what the Secretary of State was about to unleash. We are only now starting to get to grips with the implications of the proposed changes. As a member of the Select Committee who has addressed Department of Health officials and the Secretary of State, I am not sure that the Department of Health is really in control of what is happening. As far as I can see, the current policy in the Department of Health is “Don’t ask for the detail; we haven’t made it up yet.” All the changes are being led by the Secretary of State.

Statements change from one minute to the next. We are told that primary care trusts and strategic health authorities will remain until 2013 to underpin the changes; then, today, Sir David Nicholson, chief executive of the national health service, warned the Secretary of State that his proposal to abolish all PCTs by 2013 could affect quality and safety. The whole thing is becoming a circus. The plans were described by one journalist as an accident waiting to happen, and by a doctor as a politically motivated reorganisation of the NHS. That is hardly critical acclaim.

The Secretary of State for Health said to the Conservative party conference that the Government had made

“An historic commitment to increase NHS resources in real terms each year”.

That is over-egging the pudding somewhat, given the 0.1% increase. The Government could not have done any less without failing to keep their commitment. It is the lowest settlement since the 1950s. That promise must be seen in context: in-year efficiency savings of £20 billion; £1 billion taken out of the NHS to make up half the £2 billion allocated to local authorities for social care, which is not ring-fenced; an increase of £200 million to £300 million in VAT costs after the coalition increases the VAT rate; a possible £800 million to £900 million in redundancy payments over the next two years; an anticipated budget shortfall of about £6 billion by 2015; a 17% cut in capital expenditure; a two-year freeze for those earning £21,000 or more, with the expectation of a catch-up in salaries post-2013. Hospitals face financial pressures because the Department of Health has frozen the tariff. Those are the downward pressures on the financial strength of the NHS, without even taking into account the long-term strategic pressures that will shape the nature of health services and increase the strain on the NHS. They will inevitably require a more substantial budgetary provision than 0.1% year on year.

The Minister knows that the NHS faces increasing demand for services, an ageing population, an increasing number of people with complex long-term illnesses, rising treatment costs and more and more expensive medical technology. On top of that comes the far-reaching organisational restructuring of the entire health service. Sir David Nicholson told the Health Committee that the productivity challenge was huge and had never been done on the same scale in the NHS or anywhere in the world, and it is expected to happen during the transition into the new world of NHS commissioning.

With your permission, Mr Gale, I will quote Nigel Edwards, chief executive of the NHS Confederation. I asked him:

“I just wonder whether you could address this in a few sentences: do you think that we can release these productivity gains, face the furore of the populace, who will not be happy with the comments you have made about hospitals closing, and GPs in consortia trying to manage this system and, in the interim of trying to get there, a lot of the PCTs and strategic health authorities––the good people––are jumping ship? So you are now facing a huge, dangerous area where you may not have the personnel to keep what we have got going. How are we going to get the consortia—the GPs who are commissioning services—facing the wrath of their people, when some of the services they are well used to are closing down? At the same time we are busy saving all this money, do you actually think we can do it?”

He responded:

“I was going to say I think you have encapsulated the problem extremely well…my personal view is there is a very, very significant risk associated with the project that you have just described.”

On top of that, we have heard warm words from the Secretary of State. In various speeches, he has said that the guiding principle will be:

“‘No decision about me, without me’”,

yet when we examine the detail—very little of which is available—the truth appears different.

[Frank Dobson]

My hon. Friend is right to deal with such global matters. Does she think that it is possible for the Secretary of State or the Minister to reconcile all that benign guff about the money being there with the Government’s proposal to take £16 million away from Great Ormond Street hospital for sick children in my constituency? It is the most famous of its kind in Britain, with world-renowned staff, and it now faces major cuts.

[Rosie Cooper]

I share my right hon. Friend’s view. Alder Hey, which is adjacent to my constituency and serves my constituents, will be similarly affected. We are taking a worrying direction.

On “No decision about me, without me”, the Secretary of State said to the Select Committee that

“the conclusion that we reached was that we could achieve democratic accountability more effectively by creating a stronger strategic relationship between the general practice-led consortia and the local authority.”

Many people might imagine that that would mean patients being at the heart of decision making and that consortia would operate with councillors, the public and non-executives on the board with a vote. However, that will not be the case. The scrutiny will come from well-being boards. The fact that they will not be at the table and will not have a vote means—as with the current local authority overview and scrutiny arrangements—they might as well not be there. In the Health Committee, I said that such a situation was like throwing snowballs at a moving truck—in other words, the decisions and views of the well-being boards would make little or no difference.

In reality, the Government are giving the NHS budget to GPs, many of whom just want to practise medicine, rather than get involved in this giant policy experiment. There will be no testing; it will just be a big bang. The Government will use the consortiums as a shield to deflect criticism, rather like the way they are currently using the Liberal Democrats. There are rumours that the Prime Minister is getting worried about all of this. I can only hope that that is true.

The warning signs of what this means for the national health service are already apparent. There was an 80% increase in bed blocking in hospitals between May and September. I expect that that situation will only get worse, especially when the cuts to local government budgets really start to bite. Hospitals are once again increasingly becoming the safety net when the funding for social care has been used up. If a local authority cannot afford to provide the necessary care, people will end up in hospital.

Questions were asked at the Health Committee about reserves held by NHS organisations and how they would be treated. Primary care trusts are beginning to refuse to provide certain treatments. We have also had announcements on the future role of the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence, which will no longer advise on drug treatment and is moving towards value-based pricing. Will the Secretary of State control the drug companies pricing policies or, as most people think, will the drug companies shortly be back in control? We will soon be back to postcode prescribing and, more worryingly, we are making the availability of drugs a political rather than a clinical decision.

When I hear Government statements about their commitment to the quality of health care and delivering outcomes, my thoughts return to the fight between myth and reality. The idea that front-line services will not be affected seems somewhat delusional. During questions at the meeting of the Health Committee on 26 October, it became apparent from a witness giving evidence that hospital closures would be necessary to release moneys back into the wider health service. We were told that that was part of “managing demand” and “redesigning care pathways.” I have heard those two phrases throughout my health service attachment and they are very much back in vogue at present.

The failure adequately to address the true budget requirements of the NHS will not deliver and continue the quality of care that patients expect and need. These are short-term measures that have long-term consequences. They are ill thought out and will have major ramifications for the people who rely on access to vital health services. For those people, such services are a lifeline. Nobody is pretending that nothing can be improved in the health service. However, does it have to be subject to untested reorganisation while we are trying to manage increasing demand in the current financial climate?

The Labour Government were rightly proud that they reduced waiting lists from 18 months to 18 weeks. It took 13 years of proper investment to turn the NHS around, and it is a service that we should rightly be proud of. My fear is that Conservative policies could destroy all that hard work within a matter of 13 months. I agree with the comments of my right hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) about the “broken promises” of the coalition. My fear is that those broken promises will lead us headlong into a broken NHS—or is that the intention?

[Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris) on securing this Back-Bench debate today. I shall take the opportunity to talk about the effects of the spending review on health care locally. In concentrating on my constituency of Tottenham and on the London borough of Haringey, I hope to illustrate some of the real concerns of what would traditionally be classed as deprived and disadvantaged areas.

When one looks across the canvas of political issues, it must be the sincere hope of all hon. Members that health care should not be treated like a political football. People’s lives literally depend on health services. In the run-up to the general election, I was therefore pleased by the Conservative party’s undertakings on health care spend. Frankly, I was pleased at the absence of detailed policy on health in the Conservative manifesto. It felt to me as if we had perhaps arrived at a place in which health care could be a quiet zone for a few years. That is absolutely and clearly not the case. The coalition Government and the rapid plans they have brought forward will bring about the biggest change to health care in this country that we have seen since the war.

I am absolutely certain that such changes will have a detrimental effect on my constituents in Tottenham. It is important to remember that Tottenham is a constituency with the highest level of unemployment in London. It is a constituency that we like to say is the most diverse in not just London but the UK and possibly Europe. Mortality rates among many of the members and subsections—different groups—of the community are high. If someone caught, for example, the W3 bus at Northumberland park—just up by the Spurs stadium—and travelled across the constituency to the other side of Haringey, they would experience a life expectancy rise of about 10 years. That is the reality in this part of north London.

We have heard about the conclusions reached by the King’s Fund and by the Nuffield Trust. Those organisations have been in the business for many years; they are independent and they are clear that there will be a cut in funding to the NHS over this next period. However, the truth is that the Minister knows that when we talk about health care, it is absolutely the one policy area that does not sit on its own in some kind of silo; it is dependent on what is going on around it.

Much has been said about multidisciplinary working and agencies working together, but what is happening at the coal face in an area such as mine is that the local authority is calculating how to afford 28% cuts in local community services. What is actually happening is that the borough commander is calculating cuts to his front-line services and that, in an area that has experienced high levels of knife crime, youth services will be cut over this next period. Right across the board, the things that people rely on will be cut. Where will those challenges end up? They will end up in the local hospitals and in the GP surgeries at a time when the Government are proposing a fundamental restructuring of how we afford health care locally and are handing power down to GPs.

Not all the country is like a leafy part of Surrey. There are GPs—sometimes single-handed GPs—in communities such as mine who are struggling. We have GPs, as has been said, who simply do not have the practical skills needed to engage in GP commissioning on the scale proposed and over the time frame proposed. What will that mean for health care? I would like the Minister to say something on what will happen in communities such as mine, and in London more generally. We still do not know the size of the areas proposed, so I would like to hear something on that today.

I remind the Minister of a recent debate on housing benefit that focused on the health implications of the proposed changes. In the London borough of Haringey, we have already seen other local authorities begin to place people in our borough in reaction to those proposals. I have been advised by the lead member for children on the council that 27 additional children who are on the child protection register have been placed in the borough in the past two months. In remind the Minister that it is in my constituency that baby P lost his life. Those were profound challenges that found the health care system wanting in that borough and involved one of our greatest hospitals, Great Ormond Street, which, as we have heard, now faces a £16 million budget cut. This is a serious debate and we need some serious answers.

The biggest problem facing health care in my constituency is that Haringey PCT is forecasting a year-end deficit of £35 million, largely because of some of the problems I have outlined. If one includes the deficits faced by Enfield and Barnet, that amounts to a £110 million deficit in that part of north London. Which GPs does the Minister think will take on a £110 million deficit, and what does his Department propose to do about PCTs that have deficits of that level? Is he asking them to make in-year cuts to deal with it, or is he saying that the Department will pick up the deficit? It does not take a rocket scientist to work out that few GP commissioners will rush to take on a deficit on that scale in a constituency with the needs that I have outlined. I ask him to read his notes quickly, because we want an answer. What are his proposals for PCTs with such deficits?

What are the Minister’s plans for mental health? We have heard very little about mental health services and the relationships that they will be expected to have in the new arrangements, in the context of cuts beyond the borders of mental health in the local authority and in relation to social care.

The Minister might recall that my first ministerial job was in the Department of Health. I remember working with my colleague, John Hutton, the former Member for Barrow and Furness, as he negotiated the GP contract. Many Members will have their views on our former colleague, who has most recently been employed by the Minister’s party. They will also have their views on the contract and the success of those negotiations, which I was not privy to, because they were being led by the Minister at the time, who has now taken his seat in another place.

Historically, the arrangement we have in this country is that GPs are the for-profit element of the NHS; they run small businesses and have done since the war. We are obviously grateful for the oath they take and the undertaking to serve people in their local communities, but does it not seem bizarre to hand power to the element within the NHS that has historically always been its for-profit element? How will that save costs in practice? Will it not make things even harder than they are?

I started my time in the Department in 2001, just as PCTs were beginning to bed down and find their feet. For a community such as mine, the great benefit of having the chair, the non-executive directors and sometimes councillors come forward to be on the boards was that local people were in the driving seat. I do not claim that that ever got to where we would have liked it to be, but for the first time in London we began to see the leadership of PCTs reflecting the communities they served.

I also remember the situation we inherited at the Whittington hospital, the other hospital that serves the local community, with beds lined up in the corridors—a problem that we successfully dealt with over time. The Minister has previously made a commitment that the Whittington is safe under the new arrangements, but will he reiterate that for the record? Will he state for the record that North Middlesex University hospital, which has just seen a huge rebuild, is also safe and commit to the health strategy for Barnet, Enfield and Haringey, which sees that hospital really servicing the needs of that poor part of London?

This is a hugely important time for health care in London. It is a time when I want to be able to talk to people. I want to be able to find people to discuss the deficit and the existing health needs, but guess what? I cannot find them. I cannot find them because they are beginning to leave and because there are now proposals to amalgamate so that there is a pan-London relationship on all those issues. That is not local at all. It is disastrous, frankly, for people in my constituency, which has seen profound health care challenges over the last period that have got on to the national agenda as a result. I am looking forward to what the Minister has to say.

[Frank Dobson]

Before my right hon. Friend leaves the subject of the Whittington hospital, in which he was born, does he remember attending one of the rallies to save the A and E department? The current Secretary of State, then the shadow Secretary of State, promised at the time that the unit would not be closed. Is he confident that that still applies, because there are all sorts of rumours that its closure is once again being contemplated?

[Mr Lammy]

My right hon. Friend is right. I am grateful to him for that question and for his great expertise in health care matters. We are lucky that he is one of the MPs representing north London. I was at that rally, as was he, along with all the MPs from the wider north London area, because it was a cross-party issue. It was absolutely clear that the then shadow Secretary of State had promised a future for the Whittington hospital and had said that the A and E would remain.I hope that that is still the case because, if it were to go, the effect on health care outcomes for the people of north London and certainly my constituents would be profound. The Royal Free hospital in Hampstead is too far away to expect them to drive there in the event of an emergency.

I conclude on that basis. I am grateful to have been able to put on the record some of the health care issues in Tottenham and Haringey.

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[Derek Twigg]

No, not all old Labour at all. There has been a mix of Labour: young, old, new—some a bit younger than others. My hon. Friend the Member for Easington made some very important points about this being the worst settlement since the 1950s, and he raised the point about rising to the challenge of the financial settlements and the impact on social care. We heard many important points from my right hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley (Mr Barron) who, along with my right hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson), is probably the most experienced person in the Chamber, given his knowledge of the health service and his involvement in it over the years. One of those points was what the Nuffield Trust said about this being a real-terms cut, once the £1 billion that is being transferred from the NHS is taken out—I shall come back to that later. My right hon. Friend also made an important point about how the Government have used a Health Committee report to support their policies. His point was very clear, and he also raised the important issue of commissioning for GPs.

My hon. Friend the Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) made a very important point about NICE and drugs companies with reference to funding and influence. My hon. Friend the Member for West Lancashire (Rosie Cooper) has great experience in the health service. She is a near neighbour, and our areas successfully share the excellent women’s hospital in Liverpool. She made a number of powerful and important points about the reorganisation and cost pressures, and their effects on patient care. She also talked about Ministers not listening—[Interruption.] I know that the Minister has listened to what has been said in the Chamber, but Ministers’ listening will also be an important aspect of the reorganisation.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) made a powerful speech. I think he said that because he had believed what was in the Conservative and Liberal Democrat manifestos, he was somewhat disappointed—[Interruption.] Perhaps I got that wrong, but he made the point that what was said before the election and in the manifestos is not now being delivered.

[Frank Dobson]

Does my hon. Friend agree that if my right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) were a coalition Member and he believed everything that was in the Tory and Liberal Democrat manifestos, he would be unique?

[Derek Twigg]

I always carry a copy of the coalition’s programme for government—it is a fascinating read and, I must say, comforting at times.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham made some important points about mortality, the different life expectancy rates in his constituency, and the impact of the 28% cut on local government services, to which I shall return later in my speech.

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[Mr Burns]

We will come to that point. Whenever there is a parliamentary briefing or statement for a debate that fits the prejudices that Labour Members want to project—their straitjacket—that is fine, but anything that does not conform to their prejudices or prejudged views, or to the facts, such as the comments from the King’s Fund on which I kept pressing the hon. Member for Easington, which confirmed its view that we had honoured our pledge and made a real-terms increase, they dismiss as fiction. I am afraid that I do not share the support offered by the right hon. Member for Rother Valley (Mr Barron) for the views in the Nuffield Trust document.

I will come on to social care spending, because I know that the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Halton, made quite a lot of that. I will try, in a longer period than I would have in an intervention, to show that he is wrong and the Government are right.

[Frank Dobson]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Burns]

I will, but then I must make progress.

[Frank Dobson]

What is the Government’s estimate of the money that will be consumed by the process of reorganisation during the process of reorganisation?

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[Mr Burns]

No. That will then put us in a position to move forward on the implementation and funding the costs of those changes. I shall now move on to deal with the rest of the issue. This year, before we spend a single—

[Frank Dobson]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Burns]

No. I gave way to the right hon. Gentleman once and I said that I would then make progress, because the purpose of my speech is twofold: to outline our view on the subject—

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[Mr Burns]

In the overall run of things, the hon. Lady makes a genuine point, but most of the cost cutting that I heard about during the speeches involved accusations of services being cut without the reasons for the status of what are, in many cases, reconfigurations being gone into. Also, until conclusions have been reached, there is no guarantee that those reconfigurations will happen. They might do so, but there is no automatic guarantee that, just because there is to be a reconfiguration, the end product will be what was first proposed.

Furthermore, I heard very little comment—indeed, I do not think that anyone passed comment, although I apologise if someone did—on the QIPP programme, which is so important and vital for raising standards, using innovation to improve quality of care and delivery. In that, we have examples across the country of the NHS finding changes that can make a big difference.

For example, Southend Hospital NHS Trust is saving £160,000 a year by mapping postcodes—patients who live near each other can be picked up together for their dialysis appointments. Oxford Radcliffe Hospitals NHS Trust is saving £1 million a year by implementing an electronic blood transfusion system, which cuts the staff time taken to deliver blood and reduces transfusion errors, thereby improving services for patients. Ten NHS trusts have been piloting a new pathway to improve care for patients, mainly elderly people who have suffered a fractured neck of femur. If that were rolled out across the country, it could save £75 million a year.

Those are just small examples of things that can be done where savings are made, the quality and appropriateness of care improve, and money can be ploughed back into front-line services, which is so important.

While we are talking about resources, I shall answer the important question asked by the right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson). He specifically mentioned Great Ormond Street hospital, but this applies across all the specialist children’s hospitals. The Department is having ongoing discussions with Great Ormond Street and the other relevant hospitals in England about potential—I emphasise “potential”—changes to the tariff for specialist children’s hospitals for 2011-12.

I can tell the right hon. Gentleman that no decisions have yet been taken and the discussions are continuing. On his specific question about how much less money is going to be given, there is no answer at the moment, because no decisions have been taken. The discussions will continue. I hope, for the time being, that he is reassured by that answer.

[Frank Dobson]

Can the Minister confirm that Great Ormond Street hospital was asked to do without £16 million during the course of those wondrous negotiations he is talking about?

[Mr Burns]

No, but I will confirm that discussions with the hospital are ongoing and, flowing from that, decisions will be reached in due course. At this point it would be inappropriate for me to interfere by giving any confirmation or denials of anything, because the situation does not arise in that context. Discussions are going on, and no decisions have been made. We will have to see once the discussions are concluded.

[Frank Dobson]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Burns]

I cannot see how much more I can say, because my answer seemed fairly conclusive.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Burns]

I will not give way because there is little more that I can add to what I have already said on the subject.

[Frank Dobson]

rose—

[Mr Burns]

I shall make progress, because I have made the situation plain.

[Frank Dobson]

rose—

[Mr Roger Gale (in the Chair)]

Order. The Minister has made it plain that he is not giving way.

[Frank Dobson]

On a point of order, Mr Gale, the Minister might be inadvertently misleading those present here today, on the basis of information available to me.

[Mr Roger Gale (in the Chair)]

That is not a point of order for the Chair, Mr Dobson.

[Mr Burns]

All I can tell the right hon. Gentleman is the situation as it is known to me: no decisions have been made and discussions are continuing. In due course, decisions will be reached, but as of now none has been made and the discussions continue.

[Frank Dobson]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Burns]

I honestly do not see what more I can say—my answer seems fairly conclusive, so I will make progress. If the right hon. Gentleman wants to have a quick word with me afterwards, I am more than happy to do so.

Moving on to social care, which a number of hon. Members and the shadow Minister have mentioned—

[Frank Dobson]

On a point of order, Mr Gale—as I understand it, the Department of Health has been briefing that it wants to take away only £4 million from Great Ormond Street.

[Mr Roger Gale (in the Chair)]

Order. That is not a point of order for the Chair. The right hon. Gentleman has been in the House long enough to know that.