Finance (No. 3) Bill

Sheila Gilmore Excerpts

Monday 4th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con)]

Having listened to the lengthy speech made by the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) in the Public Bill Committee, and having checked Hansard to find that it was almost identical to the speech that she just made, I congratulate her on raising, yet again, both her profile and the issue of unscrupulous and high-cost lending. As she knows, she has a great deal of cross-party support on the underlying problem, but I fear that her new clause has little to do with identifying a workable solution, and I found her speech today disappointingly partisan.

I have been rather bemused by the hon. Lady’s recent Twitter stream, which refers to the campaign to persuade Members to vote for her Consumer Credit (Regulation and Advice) Bill. Perhaps she does not realise that we are voting today not on her Bill—although many of us may agree with its principles—but on amendments to the Finance Bill. For reasons that I shall give later, her new clause is fundamentally flawed.

The problem of vulnerable consumers being preyed on by high-cost credit lenders is not new. It did not suddenly appear following last year’s general election. It is a problem about which Members in all parts of the House have felt strongly for some time. My constituency contains areas of severe deprivation, and I deal regularly with case work relating to debt. I am active locally in trying to ensure that those with debt understand that there are good people to turn to, such as local credit unions and citizens advice bureaux, and that they need not rely on high-cost credit lenders.

Through the local media I have highlighted my own earlier debt problems, incurred when I worked as a researcher here in the House of Commons in the mid-1990s. I have received messages from local people saying that it was brave and courageous of me to be so honest, but I do not think that it was anything of the sort. I saw it merely as a way of removing some of the stigma from debt, and demonstrating not only that anyone from any background can get into debt, but that there are good people out there who can help to put those in debt back on the right track.

Increasing debt is an issue that should concern Members in all parts of the House. It, too, is not a new issue. I remember talking about the nation’s personal debt topping £1 trillion before I entered the House. For some time my local citizens advice bureau has been advising clients with debts totalling £1 million per week, including priority and non-priority debts, but the figure is now nearing £3 million per week. Unfortunately, Medway has a high repossession rate: on average, about 70 repossession hearings take place each week. In these worrying times, what we do not need are unscrupulous credit lending and, indeed, debt management companies taking advantage of those who are in financial trouble and at their most vulnerable.

The new clause proposes taxation measures as a means of clamping down on, or even stamping out, the industry. I fear, however, that the Opposition have not thought it through in any great detail. For a start, they have not addressed its unintended consequences. It is likely that any additional tax on the companies in the industry, just six of which control about 90% of the market, would simply be passed on to the consumer in the form of even higher rates. What is being proposed as a solution to the problem could exacerbate it by increasing the cost to the consumer and creating an even larger debt.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

The new clause asks for a review and a report. It does not suggest that the proposed measures should be implemented immediately. I fail to see the detriment that the hon. Lady seems to have identified.

[Tracey Crouch]

The hon. Lady obviously did not listen to the Minister’s response to a point made earlier. As he said, a review is currently taking place. The new clause proposes

“a review of all taxation measures contained in this Act”.

I think that, on this occasion, the hon. Lady is wrong.

--- Later in debate ---

[Oliver Heald]

I am a member of one, and membership is a good way of trying to convey knowledge about credit unions. I pay tribute to the all-party group on credit unions, chaired by my hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds). We need to do more to increase the amount of credit that is available on reasonable terms.

I am a member of the all-party group on financial education for young people, chaired by my hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson). The move to teach children the basics of budgeting from quite an early age is long overdue. In households that are chaotic and at the bottom of the economic pile there is very little understanding of basic budgeting, which we must resolve.

Finally, I want to support the point about advice. In the past, I have given free legal advice and dealt with welfare rights. I have experience of the people the hon. Member for Makerfield described, who come to see us carrying bags of documents from companies and unpaid invoices. The people who sit down with them, go through everything carefully and present their case to creditors do a marvellous job. The other day, I went to the Shelter facility in Hatfield, which offers debt advice in that part of Hertfordshire. Someone there had been working on debt advice for 29 years and she had lots of letters on the wall from people saying how grateful they were to her for trying to sort things out for them. We must certainly support debt advice, but we need to do other things in relation to education and credit unions. I would like more regulation in this field and, possibly, a cap.

[Sheila Gilmore]

Unfortunately, it seems that debates on this subject are beginning to follow a pattern: we all agree that high-cost lending is terrible and a scourge of many of our communities and that we would like something to be done about it, but the problem arises in agreeing to act. In February’s Back-Bench debate, the teeth were drawn from the motion proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy). The amendment agreed by the majority of Members of the two Government parties removed any impetus for immediate action or any agreement that the regulator should consider doing something. I see exactly the same pattern beginning to emerge. We are told that we all agree that high-cost lending is bad, but when Opposition Members want something to be done about it we are accused of breaching the consensus. In the words of the hon. Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy), we are the ones who are being political.

[Andrew Percy]

That is not quite what I said. I said that if we were to be political, we could bandy about the suggestion that all Governments had done nothing. I argued that we should await the Government’s response to the consumer credit review. We can condemn them if they do not do what we want, but until then we should at least try to pretend to be on the same side.

[Sheila Gilmore]

I am afraid I do not share the hon. Gentleman’s confidence that the review will indeed cover the issues, although something might be pending. The hon. Member for Solihull (Lorely Burt) is no longer in the Chamber, but I was interested to hear her say that “we” would all be happy to see the regulations “we” would be bringing forward. I do not know who “we” were, but it suggests that the Government’s plans are quite well advanced and that the hon. Lady is privy to their thinking, as we are not. At the end of the debate, I hope we shall hear what the regulations are and what will happen.

Warm words are not enough. Some of the organisations involved have tremendous resources behind them, yet there is so little control of their operations. Their services can seem attractive because they “solve” people’s immediate problems. Regrettably, at this stage credit unions cannot compete. Castle credit union in my constituency had to give up its shop-front premises in the main street because it did not have the resources to continue to pay the rent. It has moved into an office in a community building and is still functioning, but it has much less presence than it would have if it were still on the high street, where people would be able see it from the bus and pop in when they were doing their shopping. Now that it is tucked away in the community office, people might not know where it is. The situation is not helped by the fact that the local community newspaper, which used to advertise such facilities, has had to shut up shop owing to cuts in its funding. That will make it even harder for people to find the credit union.

[Stephen Williams]

I agree that sometimes it might be hard to find a credit union, although the one in my constituency is based on Cheltenham road, a main road. Perhaps credit unions need to go out and find customers; for instance, Bristol credit union had a stall at St Paul’s carnival this weekend.

[Sheila Gilmore]

Indeed. On Saturday, I was at just such a festival in my constituency. It was a beautiful day—the first sunny Saturday for some time. Volunteers from Castle credit union, who help to keep it going, were there for exactly the reasons the hon. Gentleman suggests. However, if, unlike credit unions, high-cost lenders have a high street presence—extremely attractive, brightly lit and hardly missable—it is much easier for people to find them.

Regrettably, only 2 % of people in the UK are members of a credit union. We can all work harder to increase that number, but one thing that would clearly help would be real resources to build the movement. Experience in my city is that real resources, far from being put in, are declining, and there are even fewer members. Despite the efforts of the volunteers who man stalls at local fairs and festivals, credit unions are not providing the competition we want with high-cost lenders. I should dearly like people to use credit unions instead of those institutions.

I understand that this is politics, but when Opposition Members make proposals we meet the accusation that Labour should have done things over the past 13 years, and it is suggested that the fact we did not debars our making proposals and expecting them to be listened to. I am sure that if my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow had been a Member during our period in government, she would have been harrying Ministers in exactly the same way as she has harried the Government over the past year. She would not have been afraid to speak.

We should not accept too lightly the suggestion that the previous Government did not look seriously at financial inclusion. The present Government say that they are interested in it too, but they do not put in the means to make it happen. It is not good enough to say they are interested. In my Westminster Hall debate, I referred to our manifesto proposal to oblige banks to provide basic bank accounts. The Minister’s response was, “Oh, we don’t really want that sort of regulation. We want it to be voluntary and we want to work with banks.” That is all too often the Government’s response. They say they want the ends, but they are not prepared to put in the means.

The previous Government did a lot of work on financial inclusion, but no one thing is enough: credit unions will not do it; basic bank accounts will not do it; and taking action against high-cost lenders alone will not do it. We need a range of measures.

Some of the steps that would help have been positively stopped by the Government. The growth fund, which helped to boost credit unions and other community-based financial institutions, has not been renewed or extended.

[Damian Hinds]

Is the hon. Lady aware of the modernisation fund of up to £73 million?

[Sheila Gilmore]

I might be wrong, but I understand that the fund is not a substitute for the money that was available through the growth fund. When it was introduced, it was hoped that banks would lend to community-based lending organisations; they have not done so, yet high-cost lenders can get finance to expand their businesses to make them attractive.

[Stella Creasy]

Does my hon. Friend agree that it is a cause of concern that the Wellcome Trust, which is supposed to advance charitable endeavours, has lent £73 million to Wonga so that it can expand its operations in the UK? Such companies can easily access credit; indeed, that sum is the entire amount left from the growth fund for credit unions across the UK.

[Sheila Gilmore]

I thank my hon. Friend for that helpful intervention. If we are to put the money where our mouth is, it is extremely important that we do not just sit in the House constantly agreeing about how bad something is; we need to take action. On that basis, I urge Members, and perhaps even the Government, to accept the new clause.

[Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)]

I thank the House for its indulgence. I was at a meeting of the Select Committee on Communities and Local Government so I missed the beginning of the debate. I shall try to be as brief as possible, because I am sure that Government Members will have heard the compelling case made by my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) and my colleagues and will have been won over by the powerful arguments they articulated.

Those outside the Westminster bubble sometimes question what we as Members of Parliament do in this place. I am sure that there are moments when even we wonder what it is all about and why we parliamentarians put ourselves through the rigorous demands of elected office. I realise just how privileged I am to be here and to represent not only the people of my community, for whom I have the highest regard, but a great city such as Liverpool, and then I have the opportunity, such as the one put forward tonight, to change the lives of ordinary people and realise that my time here is anything but wasted.