Finance (No. 3) Bill

Oliver Heald Excerpts

Monday 4th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Tracey Crouch]

The total cost of credit involves more than just the high-cost lending industry, but the hon. Lady spent most of her speech talking about individual high-cost credit lending companies such as Wonga. We must find a focus, and the fact is that wider issues of consumer credit are involved. I hope that the review will come up with a solution on which we can all agree.

The Government are considering specific product regulation as part of their draft Financial Services Reform Bill. Under the proposals to establish the financial conduct authority, a new model of conduct regulation will be established that will use early and proactive intervention to ensure that consumers are protected. That is a far more pragmatic solution than the blunt instrument of taxation, which, as I noted earlier, could have the adverse and opposite effect of creating a greater problem.

[Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend share my concern about the fact that it is often very convenient, and made very easy, for a person to take out a loan? A door-to-door salesman may appear and try to build a relationship with someone. Part of the battle is to provide responsible institutions such as credit unions, and to ensure that people know how to contact them. I think that there should be far more advertising and signposting so that people know how to get in touch with their local credit unions.

[Tracey Crouch]

I met the members of Kent savers credit union on Saturday, and look forward to meeting members of the Medway credit union in the autumn. I am a keen supporter of credit unions, and I think that all of us here are responsible for ensuring that our constituents are aware of alternatives such as lending and debt management advice. Citizens advice bureaux also offer a fantastic service. We should take it on ourselves to ensure that the message reaches our constituents.

The House should know that there is a cross-party consensus on this issue, and that the consumer credit market—particularly the high-cost credit industry—is an area of concern. In Committee, new clause 11 was billed by the hon. Member for Walthamstow as a measure in line with nudge economics. While there are some taxes that have arguably altered behaviour, such as those on cigarettes, it is highly unlikely that a tax that could be passed directly to the consumer will halt the growth or the unscrupulous practices of the industry. It would be far better to concentrate on regulation rather than taxation, and it is for that reason that I urge Members to vote against the new clause.

--- Later in debate ---

[Oliver Heald]

In the circumstances, I shall not trespass on the House’s good will for too long.

I want to start where the hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) did by making the point that if a child of people on low incomes or on benefits needs a pair of trainers or some piece of equipment is broken, it is often a disaster and the money is needed right away. That is the background to this issue. The social fund does a good deal. [Interruption.] I think the hon. Member for Makerfield would acknowledge that 400,000 people a year make more than three claims on the social fund, so they are obviously finding it useful. It is important that a credit facility is available, and it is excellent that in Northern Ireland mutuals and credit unions are so well established. We need to do more in this country to develop that idea; otherwise, we will be in the hands of the high-cost operators we have been hearing about.

[Yvonne Fovargue]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that many people do not realise that some credit unions offer loans to people who have not saved with them? The growth fund has been very useful in that regard, but many credit unions do not have access to the growth fund with which people have to save before they can get a loan. That makes the situation impossible for many people.

[Oliver Heald]

The hon. Lady makes an important point, which I imagine will be considered by the consumer credit review. I am a member of a credit union, and I think that all MPs should be because it is a good way of illustrating—

[Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)]

I’m in two.

[Oliver Heald]

I am a member of one, and membership is a good way of trying to convey knowledge about credit unions. I pay tribute to the all-party group on credit unions, chaired by my hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds). We need to do more to increase the amount of credit that is available on reasonable terms.

I am a member of the all-party group on financial education for young people, chaired by my hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson). The move to teach children the basics of budgeting from quite an early age is long overdue. In households that are chaotic and at the bottom of the economic pile there is very little understanding of basic budgeting, which we must resolve.

Finally, I want to support the point about advice. In the past, I have given free legal advice and dealt with welfare rights. I have experience of the people the hon. Member for Makerfield described, who come to see us carrying bags of documents from companies and unpaid invoices. The people who sit down with them, go through everything carefully and present their case to creditors do a marvellous job. The other day, I went to the Shelter facility in Hatfield, which offers debt advice in that part of Hertfordshire. Someone there had been working on debt advice for 29 years and she had lots of letters on the wall from people saying how grateful they were to her for trying to sort things out for them. We must certainly support debt advice, but we need to do other things in relation to education and credit unions. I would like more regulation in this field and, possibly, a cap.

[Sheila Gilmore]

Unfortunately, it seems that debates on this subject are beginning to follow a pattern: we all agree that high-cost lending is terrible and a scourge of many of our communities and that we would like something to be done about it, but the problem arises in agreeing to act. In February’s Back-Bench debate, the teeth were drawn from the motion proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy). The amendment agreed by the majority of Members of the two Government parties removed any impetus for immediate action or any agreement that the regulator should consider doing something. I see exactly the same pattern beginning to emerge. We are told that we all agree that high-cost lending is bad, but when Opposition Members want something to be done about it we are accused of breaching the consensus. In the words of the hon. Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy), we are the ones who are being political.

--- Later in debate ---

High-cost credit is exactly the sort of issue that I got involved in politics for in the first place. The issue is totemic, as it represents the sort of fight that I hear politicians talk about all the time in this House. The word “fairness” is bandied around the Chamber like confetti. Even the Prime Minister claims that coalition policies are about fairness. Although I point to the juxtaposition between the reality and the rhetoric, today is an opportunity for Government Members to put their money where their mouth is, because this really is about fairness.

[Oliver Heald]

There is of course wide acceptance across the House that some regulation is needed in this area, but why should it be about taxation? A Finance Bill obviously provides an opportunity to raise the issue, but does the hon. Gentleman not agree that there is a risk—[Interruption.] He should at least let me ask the question before learning the answer from the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy). Does he not agree that there is a risk, through the law of unintended consequences, of high-cost companies simply passing on the costs of higher taxation to the poor people in Liverpool he is worried about?

[Steve Rotheram]

I always listen to my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow, as she is much more of an expert on these matters than I am. I hope that the hon. Gentleman’s intervention is not indicative of the thinking of all Government Members.

I have a particular reason for wanting to see a cap on the cost of credit. I come from a family of eight kids, and unfortunately my beloved mum was often a victim of door-to-door credit. She took it not to pay for luxury goods, but so that she could afford to buy us things like school blazers and winter coats. She would get a Provident or Sterlers cheque and pay it back on the “never-never”, as it was known colloquially. This meant paying back hundreds of per cent. of the original loan in interest charges, but like millions of others she did not really understand the rudimentary economics and looked only at how much she could afford to pay back each and every week, rather than the interest rate or the cumulative payment total. Unfortunately, she was not unique in this respect and, even four decades on, far too many people are still caught in this poverty trap.

The high cost of credit has not improved much for families at the wrong end of the socio-economic ladder. Home credit lenders often charge astronomical annual percentage rates of up to 3,000% or 4,000%. I had to check those figures, because the current bank base rate is only 0.5%, but I found that interest charges of thousands of per cent. are not uncommon. In fact, the UK’s poorest pay the highest price for credit in Europe. This is an obscene state of affairs and the Government must act. Before we hear the same old mantra from Government Members, I admit that we in the Opposition did not do enough to tackle the issue head-on when we were in power. However, as my hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) rightly pointed out, this is an escalating problem that needs to be tackled immediately.

I urge Members on both sides of the House to support what my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow is trying to do to stop this most socially iniquitous of practices. Even Boris supposedly supports measures to protect the financially vulnerable, and if he can do it, there should be nothing stopping Government Members doing the same.

Members on both sides of the House have highlighted the problem and provided examples of the unfairness, but it is worth reiterating that credit lenders can charge, in real terms, £82 in interest and collection charges for every £100 lent. A gentleman came to my constituency advice surgery only last Friday and told me that his wife was suicidal because of the level of debt that they had got themselves into. I highlighted last week in a Westminster Hall debate the fact that the banks are failing to meet the Project Merlin targets for lending and the adverse effect that this is having on the construction sector. The banks are also failing ordinary families as they are refused credit from high street lenders, which often results in them taking the only option left: high-cost lending through payday and doorstep loans and hire purchase.

The rising cost of credit traps those least able to cope with the pressures of economic stagnation as they struggle to make ends meet, and believe me, the VAT increase has not helped those families. Some payday lenders are rubbing their hands at the expansion in their “target audience”, as one put it, 70% of whom have a household income below £25,000. I know that we will never completely stop this most lucrative of immoral trades, but we can certainly put a cap on lending to regulate the total amount that can be charged for supplying credit.

This is one of the occasions on which I do not understand how a proposal could not receive unequivocal support from both sides of the House. I have listened to some of arguments against taking action, such as the suggestion that it might make things worse or restrict credit to those who need it, but that is an absolute cop-out with no basis in evidence. Therefore, I ask Government Members to support the new clause to ensure that consumers are protected and simply pay a fair price for credit.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hoban]

The hon. Gentleman needs to look carefully at the impact of tax in different sectors. Just because one rule applies to one sector does not mean that it applies to others. We know that there is real concern, for example, that if we forced excise duty up too high, people would resort to smuggling to evade it. The impact varies from tax to tax and from area to area, and we need to consider which measures will be effective.

There are broader concerns about how the Opposition want to use tax. As I said, tax is used to change behaviour from time to time, but it is a blunt instrument, and if it is not properly thought through it can lead to perverse outcomes. An increased rate of tax on lenders would not have any obviously positive impact on how consumers are treated. Studies from other areas show that lenders will find ways to circumnavigate regulations and pass costs on to borrowers. A different tax rate for those businesses would be detrimental to consumers and would raise the cost of providing credit to those who may be unable to access mainstream credit.

Members have a responsibility to take seriously the potential for such measures to drive lending underground. I am sure that no one in the House would like to see a rise in illegal loan sharking, which can so devastate lives. The risks to individuals’ financial and personal well-being would be increased by loan sharks, who do not follow regulations or take legal action when debts remain unpaid. They use whatever means they can to recover their money, often forcing borrowers into more debt, or much worse. The provision of short-term credit can prevent financial exclusion, and it has allowed more consumers to access credit in a regulated market.

A number of comments have been made about an interest rate cap. There were three separate reviews under the previous Administration that considered, among other things, price controls in the high-cost credit market in the UK. They all came to a similar conclusion—that introducing price controls may lead to unintended consequences that would not be beneficial to consumers. The OFT review found that

“introducing price controls would not be an appropriate solution to the particular concerns we have identified in this market”,

and that

“developing a system to enforce and monitor price controls or interest rate caps in the UK would be complex, expensive and difficult to administer”.

In Committee, the hon. Member for Walthamstow mentioned a recent European Commission study published at the start of this year, but it found that restrictions on interest rates could deny people access to small amounts of credit, do not reduce overall average interest rates and lead to increased fees and charges being imposed by lenders. The idea of a cap on the total cost of credit sounds appealing at first, but it would have its consequences.

[Oliver Heald]

Does my hon. Friend agree that two initiatives that were described earlier are valuable? One is credit unions—my hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) chairs the all-party group that is promoting their work—and the other is financial education for young people, which my hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) and his all-party group are pursuing vigorously. Are those not two positive things that the House can get behind?

[Mr Hoban]

Yes, my hon. Friend is absolutely right. The provision of better education, information and guidance to help people manage their money is extremely valuable. That is why we have been very supportive of the Money Advice Service in its work to help improve financial capability and capacity.

Sustainable solutions to the issues raised by the Opposition are not simple or obvious. As my hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) said, an individual making the minimum repayment on their credit card could be subject to a higher total cost of credit than someone using payday lenders. The vast majority of people who borrow from payday lenders and then re-borrow pay off the amount that they borrowed by the third time. That shows that careful and considered thought needs to be given to the impact on consumers of a cap on the total cost of credit, and how it would be implemented in practice. The majority of available research focuses on interest rate restrictions rather than such a cap, but some of the same challenges apply.

We need to gather evidence before we introduce new rules, or else risk unintended consequences. That was why we launched the consumer credit and personal insolvency review, and we are considering carefully the evidence that has been provided. The Government will announce the next stage shortly, and are committed to taking action when we can be sure that it will be effective. The Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr Davey), and I will continue to engage in the matter, along with the hon. Member for Walthamstow. However, I am afraid the new clause is not the right way to take things forward. It is flawed in both detail and effect. We need sensible, well-thought-through interventions to improve the functioning of high-cost credit markets and get better outcomes for consumers. The new clause would not achieve that, and I ask the Opposition to withdraw it.

I know that it cannot be easy for the Opposition to work with the Government on this issue and appear to concede on the new clause. It could seem like a climbdown for them to accept that more work is needed before action is taken, but that is the sensible, responsible approach.