Armed Forces Bill
Sandra Osborne Excerpts(13 years, 3 months ago)
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Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab)
Does the hon. Gentleman feel from his personal experience that if people are constantly going to be asked to serve, it could act as a disincentive to joining the reserve forces?
Mark Lancaster
I am making the point that we must be careful how we use these powers. The point I was coming on to was that an employer might have to give the job back to an employee who has been away on mobilised service, but he does not necessarily have to promote him. Who is going to be promoted—the person permanently at work or the person who comes and goes every two or three years? I support the extension of these powers, but I add the caveat that we must be very careful how we use them. We should not use them in a manner that could act as a disincentive along the lines that the hon. Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock (Sandra Osborne) suggested.
Mr Llwyd
The hon. Gentleman misses my point. That Minister would look at every single Department in turn, including the MOD, and when there was some form of engagement with veterans in that Department he or she would report accordingly on whatever he or she found to be the case. The responsibility would ultimately still lie with the military. I say, with the greatest of respect to the hon. Gentleman and those from the military who might be listening, that hitherto the military has not been very good at looking after veterans and that is why I am on my feet at the moment.
Sandra Osborne
I, for one, would love to see a dedicated Department for veterans in this country, notwithstanding the expense. If we feel that they deserve recognition, we should be prepared to put our money where our mouth is, perhaps not right now but in the future. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the huge step forward we are witnessing today is that the military covenant will be in law, which the Government previously resisted? That is a huge step forward.
Gemma Doyle
I give the Minister a categorical assurance that I will mention it. My concern is whether the Secretary of State will even consider those issues. As the Bill stands, he does not have to; he need only look at education, health and housing, and that is not good enough.
I should have liked to explore further with the Minister why education, health care and housing had been chosen at the expense of the many other issues that have been of great concern over the past 12 months. However, he declined to give evidence on his Bill.
I am also concerned that there is nothing in clause 2 that applies to Scottish or Welsh veterans. At the very least, the Bill should be amended to send a clear signal about the UK-wide responsibilities of the Secretary of State. If the family of a Scottish service person live off-base in local authority housing, their housing requirements are devolved. We have been advised that the Secretary of State will update the House even when those matters are devolved. It seems odd that such a thing could happen, because the Secretary of State is not responsible for the delivery of devolved services; nor is he or she accountable, and thus could not answer questions on the matter.
Sandra Osborne
I am quite surprised to hear my hon. Friend say that. I understood in the Select Committee that the Government had undertaken to discuss that with the devolved Parliaments. I would have expected it to be resolved, including legislation, by now.
Gemma Doyle
I entirely agree, but the correspondence I have seen does not indicate that that is the case.
Oral Answers to Questions
Sandra Osborne Excerpts(13 years, 4 months ago)
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Mr Robathan
The hon. Gentleman is quite right. I have driven along that particular road and seen the situation. [Interruption.] I hear somebody shouting from a sedentary position, “It’s your Government!” Actually, the houses were built under the last Government, and the houses that have not been done up were not done up under the last Government. We are trying.
Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab)
What assessment have the Government made of the proposition put forward at the weekend by the Scottish National party, that in an independent Scotland, armed forces bases could be shared?
Dr Fox
It is tempting to make light of the nonsensical ideas that tend to come from the Scottish National party, but now that it is in such a strong political position in Scotland, we have to take these issues more seriously. It is extremely worrying that the SNP has previously had a posture that is anti-NATO and anti the nuclear defence of this country. It is time to engage in a serious debate on issues that ought to worry all those who believe in the United Kingdom, and in sound defence for the United Kingdom.
Armed Forces Covenant
Sandra Osborne Excerpts(13 years, 4 months ago)
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Dr Fox
As my hon. Friend knows, there is considerable debate about the numbers of the armed forces as a proportion of the prison population. I think we can say that for many of those who end up in prison, particularly those who have been homeless or who have been subject to drug and alcohol problems, it represents a failure of other systems to provide a suitable safety net. As a country, when we consider issues such as mental health, we need to ensure that we do not allow those who are potentially vulnerable to fail to be picked up by the services that might prevent them from ending up in an inappropriate institution such as prison.
Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab)
I am fortunate to have Combat Stress in my constituency. What funding mechanism will be used to distribute the £30 million and will it be open to charities such as Combat Stress to apply?
Military Covenant
Sandra Osborne Excerpts(13 years, 7 months ago)
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Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that various issues of concern to military families will be included in the report on the military covenant and that the content of that report should be determined by the external reference group and not by the Secretary of State?
Mr Murphy
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The military covenant should not be whatever the Government of the day determine it to be. It should not be at the whim of Ministers to decide in a report what is and is not in the covenant. My hon. Friend makes a very important point.
The Government say that it is not necessary to detail the military covenant, in principle, in law, because they are already taking action. They mention the covenant in the report and it was mentioned in the Armed Forces Bill Committee. All those involved in the debate today—except, perhaps, for you, Mr Deputy Speaker, because you are free from involvement in these debates—will have received an e-mail from the Royal British Legion, which stated:
“As the nation’s guardian of the Military Covenant, we would be very grateful if you could urge the Government to honour the Prime Minister’s welcome commitment last June to enshrine the Military Covenant in law. We do not understand why the Government is now claiming that the commitment to produce an ‘Armed Forces Covenant Report’ is somehow the same thing as enshrining the Military Covenant in law. It is not the same thing at all.”
I urge hon. Members from both Government parties to listen to the legion’s voice and vote for the motion today.
The military covenant cannot be whatever Government Ministers of the day deign it to be. It should be defined in law so that it is removed from the cut and thrust of party politics. If the Secretary of State is true to his word, which I believe him to be, he should meaningfully define the covenant in law. What is needed is specific legislation to put the definition of the covenant on a legal footing. In the words of Chris Simpkins, the director general of the Royal British Legion:
“To suggest an annual covenant report would be as effective as a piece of legislation is nonsense and would be evidence of the Government doing a U-turn on their explicit promises.”
Sandra Osborne
When the Secretary of State refers to communities, does that include local communities where there are currently armed forces bases? What about the contribution that they have made over the years, and what about the economic impact on those communities of the closure of bases?
Dr Fox
As the hon. Lady knows, we are spending a great deal of time and effort getting the balance of the bases correct, primarily for our national security needs, but we will also take into account the social and other impacts that the changes will have. The hon. Gentleman from the Scottish National party who is normally in his seat usually intervenes at this point. We are aware of the changes—
Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab)
It is an incredible pleasure to follow all the Back Benchers who have spoken this evening, as their speeches have shown the House of Commons at its best in terms of expertise and the passion with which Members have been speaking.
I start by paying tribute to our forces and the sacrifices they make for our country, and by referring to the grief of the families of those who have been lost. When I recently went to Afghanistan with the Select Committee on Defence, we visited a forward operating base—I believe this was the first time the Committee had done so—and the dangers faced by our soldiers on a daily basis were obvious and very humbling. Through the work taking place there and at Camp Bastion, together with the training of the Afghan army and police, we are seeing real progress, but for me it was the professionalism of our forces that shone through. The best part of the visit came when we spoke face to face with members of the forces. I was left in no doubt that they are extremely worried about their terms and conditions, and their future pension arrangements, and that many did not feel that they were being treated fairly. I had similar conversations when the previous Government were in office and I acknowledge that members of the armed forces were not happy then either. We have to acknowledge that much more can be done. The shadow Secretary of State outlined what had been done, but we need to make more progress.
In the House, we are rightly always hearing warm words of appreciation for our forces, but they can ring hollow if they are not put into practice in the military covenant and if promises are made and then not kept. In the Armed Forces Bill Committee, the Minister responsible for veterans said that the covenant is a “moral obligation” and a “philosophical statement” and therefore does not need to be spelled out in detail or enshrined in law. That is, of course, the exact opposite of the promise that the Prime Minister made on the Ark Royal—the “Ark of the covenant” perhaps.
My constituency in the south-west of Scotland covers large parts of Ayrshire that are closely associated with the Covenanters, who stood for the preservation of Presbyterianism against all attempts to re-establish Catholic or Episcopalian Church government—that is perhaps not the happiest of illustrations for our Front-Bench team of Murphy and Doyle to take on board. My point is merely that covenants are scattered throughout history, nowhere more so than in biblical times. They often represented the most deeply held beliefs and were of life and death proportions. The adjectives most commonly associated with them were words such as “solemn” and “binding”. It was seldom enough for them to be written in the hearts and minds; it was far better for them to be written on tablets of stone or in blood.
The military covenant is no less a thing; it is not a mere service level agreement and it is more than a bundle of moral obligations or philosophical statements. Moral obligations and philosophical statements do not pay the bills for our service personnel or veterans, nor do they give guarantees in legislation, which is the promise that was made and the promise that should be kept.
Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)
My hon. Friend is making a tremendously impressive speech on this issue. The people of Barnsley, in my constituency, have great regard for the armed forces and they expect the Members they elect to this House to reflect that fact in not only everything they say, but everything they do. Does she agree with that?
Sandra Osborne
Yes, very much so.
We are fortunate that both the Armed Forces Bill Committee and the Defence Committee contain Members who have served with distinction in the armed forces, for example, the hon. Member for Milton Keynes North (Mark Lancaster), who spoke with such authority. I have not served in the forces, so I am grateful that I have had the chance to take part in the armed forces parliamentary scheme. As hon. Members will know, the scheme allows MPs to spend some 22 days a year with a particular service. Surprisingly enough, in my case it was with the Royal Marines and although it was in no way equivalent to the experience of actual service, it certainly opened my eyes to the reality of the job being done, as well as providing opportunities to speak frankly and off the record to the rank and file. I commend the scheme to hon. Members who might not be aware of it—it is very useful, especially given that relatively few Members of the House have served with the armed forces.
One issue that worries me about the Armed Forces Bill is the narrow way it is framed in terms of specifying the issues that should be included in the covenant. Education, health and housing are very important, but none of them comes under the remit of the MOD. That is not an adequate list of the many issues that exist and, as hon. Members have said, are by no means the only matters of concern. Pensions are of major concern and not just in relation to the retail prices index/consumer prices index debate: widows’ allowances are also of concern. The agreement on pensions is being changed retrospectively and members of the armed forces feel aggrieved about that because they joined the forces in the belief that they would be guaranteed a decent pension. Now they feel let down. I mentioned the external reference group earlier because I think it is important that we have a level of independence. I do not make a party political point: I believe that Governments of any persuasion have a vested interest in highlighting the areas that suit them and ignoring those that do not. For example, why have pensions not been included even though they are obviously a hot issue?
Health care is extremely important and I was delighted to hear that the Secretary of State is prioritising mental health services. Combat Stress in my constituency does a tremendous job for people who suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder, including through cognitive behavioural therapy. I strongly welcome the prioritisation of mental health services and I look forward to the development of further services, but I repeat that a promise made should be a promise kept.
Bob Russell
I am not a lawyer; all I know is that the Bill, which I hope will become an Act, refers to the armed forces covenant. Should there be more than that, or should there be less? I do not know, but I do know that as the years unfold, that concept will be developed and built upon. Not only the Royal British Legion but other charities are involved. We have heard about the external reference group, but in fact a breakdown of that group has shown that the majority of its membership is within Government. It is more of an internal reference group, with a few very important external people added on.
Sandra Osborne
The hon. Gentleman will recall from the activities of the Bill Committee that the devolved Administrations are involved in the external reference group. So far, that is the only way in which they have been consulted on the Bill. Does he agree that such consultation is important?