Ceasefire in Gaza

Baroness Winterton of Doncaster Excerpts

Wednesday 21st February 2024 Commons Chamber

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order. I urge colleagues to try to stick to two minutes. I could get everybody in if they did that.

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[Helen Hayes (Dulwich and West Norwood) (Lab)]

On Sunday I returned from four days in Israel and Palestine as part of a cross-party delegation with Yachad. We met hostage families, displaced Palestinians, NGOs working in Gaza, peace activists on both sides of the conflict, and Israeli and Palestinian official spokespeople. It was a distressing, moving and humbling experience.

The conflict in Israel and Gaza has brought unimaginable horror on Israelis and Palestinians. It has intensified the violent displacement of Palestinians by Israelis in the west bank. In the very short time that I have, at the end of this debate, I want to bring to this House the words of an extraordinary young man, Yotam Kipnis. We met Yotam in the Be’eri kibbutz, which he returned to with us for the first time since 7 October, to visit the home from which his parents were abducted and subsequently murdered by Hamas. As we stood outside the rubble of Yotam’s home, he said “Vengeance is a valid feeling. It is not a valid policy.”

In Israel and Palestine, they talk about the day after this conflict: to get to the day after, we must first have a ceasefire. We must have a ceasefire now, before more atrocities are committed in Rafah. We need a ceasefire so that humanitarian aid can get into Gaza. We need a ceasefire for people like Yotam, who are working for peace. If they can set aside their differences and focus on what really matters—the future that Israelis and Palestinians can build of peace and security—we can put aside our differences in this House tonight and vote for a ceasefire.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

I call the SNP spokesperson.

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[The Leader of the House of Commons (Penny Mordaunt)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I know that Mr Speaker is a servant of this House and that he takes his responsibilities to us extremely seriously. It is that duty towards us and our rights as Members in this place that commands our respect of him.

We all have obligations in this place to ensure that all views can be expressed, and that individual Members and parties of all colours and sizes can have their say. As a Member on the Government Benches, sometimes that is difficult during Opposition day debates, as motions are always deliberately confected to try to engineer the greatest possible backlash against Members. But we on the Government Benches have never asked that the procedures of this House be upturned to militate against such pressures, even when we have faced extreme abuse. Mr Speaker has stated in the decision that he has taken today, and that he is entitled to take, that he wished for all propositions on the Order Paper to be put to the House.

However, that decision has raised temperatures in this House on an issue where feelings are already running high, and that has put right hon. and hon. Members in a more difficult position. It also appears, from the advice of his Clerk, that the decision was taken against the long-standing and established processes and procedures of this House, and that the consequence may be that the Government are not able to respond to Opposition day motions. As such, the Government do not have confidence that they will be able to vote on their own amendment. For that reason, the Government will play no further part in the decision this House takes on today’s proceedings.

I would like to stress that the Government’s position on Israel and Gaza remains unchanged, as my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister outlined today. We want to see the fighting in Gaza end as soon as possible, and we never again want to see Hamas carry out the appalling terrorist attacks that Israel was subject to. We know that just calling for an immediate ceasefire now, which collapses back into fighting within days or weeks, is not in anyone’s interests. We will be reiterating the Government’s position via a written ministerial statement. I fear that this most grave matter that we are discussing this afternoon has become a political row within the Labour party, and that regrettably—[Interruption.]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order. I want to hear the point of order.

[Penny Mordaunt]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

I fear that, regrettably, Mr Speaker has inserted himself into that row with today’s decision and undermined the confidence of this House in its ability to rely on its long-established Standing Orders to govern its debates—long-established conventions that should not be impaired by the current view of a weak Leader of the Opposition and a divided party. I ask that Mr Speaker take the opportunity to reassure all right hon. and hon. Members that their Speaker—our Speaker—will not seek to undermine those rights in order to protect the interests of particular Members, and that future Opposition day debates will not be hijacked in this way. I say that for the benefit of all Members. [Interruption.]

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. I thank the right hon. Lady for alerting me to her point of order. I will take further points of order, but I think it will be helpful if I explain that if the Government do not move their amendment, the Questions will be first on the current amendment, and secondly on the motion itself, either as amended or in its original form. I hope that is helpful. [Interruption.] It would be helpful if I could be heard, thank you. [Interruption.] Order. I will first take a point of order from the shadow Leader of the House.

[Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op)]

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Obviously, I did not have advance notice of the point of order from the Leader of the House, so I am responding in terms. Of course, we support what Mr Speaker was intending to do today—[Interruption.] Hang on a minute. [Interruption.] Hang on a minute. We support—[Interruption.]

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. We are going to listen to the points of order. The Leader of the House was heard. The shadow Leader of the House will be heard, and then I will come to the SNP leader. I expect everybody to be heard with respect.

[Lucy Powell]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Last time I looked, those on the Government Benches had a majority in this House. If they do not like the amendments before them, they could vote this evening to defeat them. [Interruption.] But they have now decided, I understand, not to vote on them, so perhaps we have to ask whether they do still command a majority in this House and whether they are trying to hide behind some other reason. [Interruption.] Keep shouting, keep shouting. You’re just embarrassing yourselves, quite honestly.

[Lucy Powell]

Absolutely given up governing. Mr Speaker is trying, I think, Madam Deputy Speaker—[Interruption.]

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. It is so bad just to be shouting the shadow Leader of the House down. Right hon. and hon. Members should think about what they are doing in behaving like that. The shadow Leader of the House will be heard, and I am sure she is coming to the point of order that she wants me to rule on.

[Lucy Powell]

There are a large number of Opposition Members who want to express their view this evening by being able to vote for an amendment in their name. [Interruption.] Government Members are still shouting me down, Madam Deputy Speaker. They have an amendment in their name, which they clearly do not have the numbers to get through the House. It is astonishing that the Conservative party suddenly finds itself standing in defence of the Scottish National party—something I did not think I would see. If they have the numbers to command a majority in this House, they should vote for their amendment.

Mr Speaker had every right to let us have a say on our amendment this evening and to have the maximum number of options. The Leader of the House might want to consult the former Leader of the House, the right hon. Member for North East Somerset (Sir Jacob Rees-Mogg), who said that Mr Speaker had in fact taken the right decision in making sure that the maximum number of options were available to the House this evening.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Let me just confirm again that if the Government do not move their amendment, the other amendment and the main Question will be taken.

[Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP)]

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. May I begin by re-emphasising that we are all here tonight to vote on a motion on the civilian deaths in Gaza and the appalling situation that is being faced by nationals in Israel, too? We all must remember that.

First, if I have listened correctly to what has just been said, on an SNP Opposition day, should the Labour party’s amendment be carried, the SNP’s vote will not be held. Secondly, if I have correctly read the Clerk of the House’s letter to all Members, which was sent to the Speaker, this was a consequence that the Speaker was warned of. Madam Deputy Speaker, can you please advise me: where on earth is the Speaker of the House of Commons, and how do we bring him to the House to explain to the Scottish National party why our views and our votes in this House are irrelevant to him?

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[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his point of order. [Interruption.] Order. For as long as it takes, I will answer the point of order and then I will take other points of order, but I suggest that Members allow me to speak first.

Further to the hon. Gentleman’s point of order, I have explained that, as I understood it, there were going to be three votes tonight. The Government have withdrawn their amendment. The consequence is, as the hon. Gentleman says, that if the Labour party amendment is passed, it will be added to the SNP motion. He is right to say—[Interruption.] No, let me finish. He is right to say that if there is a Division, there will be just one vote, but if it goes through, we move on to the next business.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Let me first take the point of order from the Chair of the Procedure Committee.

[Dame Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con)]

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I seek your guidance. My understanding from the advice I have seen is that Standing Order 31, whereby the motion is put first, did not apply because there were two amendments. If there is now only one amendment, surely we should revert to Standing Order 31.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I thank the Chair of the Procedure Committee for her point of order, but if the Government amendment is not moved, we revert to the amendment from the Labour party and that amendment has been moved. If it is passed, the SNP motion is amended and then the Question is put on the SNP amendment.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I will come back to Stephen Flynn, and then I will come to Mr Wragg.

[Stephen Flynn]

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Further to my earlier remarks, and on the back of the remarks that have just been made, I am afraid that you did not provide me with clarity in relation to, first, where the Speaker of the House of Commons is and, secondly, what mechanisms are available to Members to bring him to this House to explain why the SNP Opposition day has turned into a Labour Opposition day. Thirdly, and most importantly, I must insist to you, Madam Deputy Speaker, that the SNP motion is voted on first, as the Chair of the Procedure Committee has just outlined.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

First I am going to take the other member of the Procedure Committee, then I will come back to the point raised by the hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Stephen Flynn).

[Mr William Wragg (Hazel Grove) (Con)]

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. On such a serious debate and topic and on a personal note from me, having given Mr Speaker a great deal of support in his election to the House on the basis that we were going to have a fresh start and that the conventions that govern our proceedings would not be meddled with to seek one particular political view at any one time, I am hugely disappointed by what has transpired. We as a House are not showing ourselves to the country as anywhere near our best or what we are capable of. I wonder if you can advise me on the nature of the early-day motion tabled in my name and those of a number of my colleagues, which will appear live at the close of proceedings today, and on whether those in receipt of Government payroll are by convention eligible to sign such an early-day motion?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his point of order. I imagine the SNP Chief Whip wants to add to what has already been said on this.

[Owen Thompson (Midlothian) (SNP)]

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker, I have to say I am slightly confused. I do not want to break any confidences, but I was assured that I would have a vote on the SNP motion today. As I understand the advice from the Clerks, if the Labour amendment were to be put first and passed, that would amend the text of our motion. Given that that amendment would remove all of the text of our motion, we would not have a vote on the text of our motion, on our Opposition day. How can that possibly be allowed to happen?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Let me first address the point from the hon. Member for Aberdeen South, the leader of the SNP. The Speaker set out very clearly this morning the reasons for his decision to give the widest possible scope for different views to be heard and voted on. The hon. Member for Midlothian (Owen Thompson), the SNP Chief Whip, knows that we would have been able to vote on all three propositions. However, because the Government motion has been withdrawn, that is not possible—[Interruption.] That is the correct position. We finished the wind-ups at 6.15, and there would have been the opportunity for three votes. Because the Government are no longer participating, I will put the Question on the Labour amendment—

[Stephen Flynn]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I am responding to the hon. Member for Aberdeen South—[Interruption.] I am responding to him, so he needs to sit down. I will put the Labour amendment—[Interruption.] No, I am answering his point of order. Sit down. He asked me whether that would amend the SNP motion. Yes, it would. If it is passed but SNP Members do not agree with the wording, they can vote against it. Let us be clear—[Interruption.] That is the situation.

[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. It seems that Mr Speaker was put under intolerable pressure. Nicholas Watt, the political editor of BBC “Newsnight”, tweeted:

“Senior Labour figures tell me @CommonsSpeaker was left in no doubt that Labour would bring him down after the general election unless he called Labour’s Gaza amendment.”

Can the—[Interruption.] A Labour figure told him that, so do not say it is rubbish.

Madam Deputy Speaker, can you assure the House that everything will be done to identify who put that intolerable pressure on Mr Speaker?

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[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his point of order. That tweet is wrong. The statement is incorrect, and I know he would want that reassurance.

[Stephen Flynn]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am afraid that I will have to try for a third time. Can you please advise me on where Mr Speaker is? What mechanisms are available to bring him to the House? As we wait for the deliberation on that question, I move that you use the power that I trust you have to suspend this House until Mr Speaker is brought here. [Interruption.] You can do that.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

The hon. Gentleman raises a point of order, which he then interrupted. I will not be suspending the House. We need to put these questions. Mr Speaker will be in his place tomorrow.

[Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con)]

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Where is Mr Speaker?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman will have to make do with me, which I know is a great disappointment. Mr Speaker will be here in his place tomorrow.

[Dame Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Can you confirm that, many years ago, Opposition day debates were taken seriously by Governments, and if a Government lost a vote, as happened on the Gurkha motion when Labour was in government, they would put the motion into effect? Successive Conservative Administrations have largely ignored Opposition day debates. They have refused to take part in many votes, and they have widely ignored the result of votes in which they did not take part.

Madam Deputy Speaker, do you agree that it is a bit rich for that lot opposite to give lectures about the importance of Opposition day debates when they routinely ignore them?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I thank the hon. Lady for her point of order. First, unless there are very exceptional circumstances, Opposition day votes are not binding. She knows parliamentary procedure, so I think she knows that.

Secondly, the hon. Lady is correct to say that the previous but one Leader of the House said that if an Opposition day motion were passed, even if the Government had not participated, she would come back with a response within 20 days. That is my recollection. I do not believe that is currently followed, but the hon. Lady is right that it is what used to happen.

It is absolutely up to the Government, as it is for any Member of the House, as to whether they do or do not vote. It is their decision.

[Brendan O’Hara]

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. The House and its procedures have descended into absolute chaos, simply because of a decision taken by the Speaker earlier today. Is it too much to ask that the Speaker is asked to come to this House to explain exactly why he took those decisions, the consequences of those decisions and how he intends to get this House out of the mess it finds itself in? For what reason would you not suspend the House in order for the Speaker to come here to sort this mess out?

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[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I have said twice already that Mr Speaker set out this morning in detail why he had made his decision, and he will be in his place tomorrow.

[Sir Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. [Interruption.]

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

No, you will listen to the points of order and listen politely. It looks so bad, on such an important issue—[Interruption.] There is no point in shouting me down now. It looks so bad to our constituents if they see Members who are raising perfectly reasonable points of order just being shouted down. It is not good. I call Sir Chris Bryant.

[Sir Chris Bryant]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. There are perfectly legitimate views, on different sides, as to the propriety of today’s proceedings. However, I just say gently to some Conservative Members who have said that we cannot possibly have an Opposition day motion being amended by another Opposition party that some of the Members who are shouting the loudest—[Interruption.] I just remind some of those who have been shouting the loudest on the Conservative Benches that they personally voted on 13 May 1999 for a Conservative Opposition motion amending a Liberal Democrat motion on an Opposition day.

Far more importantly, surely, is the fact that the behaviour of many hon. Members in the Chamber today will have made a lot of people in this country very nervous about the way we conduct our business when dealing with some of the most important matters of state. Most significantly, it has been the tradition of British parliamentary democracy that if a Government lose control of their foreign policy, they have lost the confidence of the House, by definition, and consequently there is an immediate general election.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his point of order.

[Sir Charles Walker]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I will take the point of order from Sir Charles Walker, but I do want to move on and put the Question shortly.

[Sir Charles Walker]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I do not know how we got to this point today, but it does not reflect well on Parliament. His Majesty’s Opposition have clearly behaved—and I do not mean this in any way as an offence—[Interruption.] Please, I do not. They have behaved—[Interruption.] People are frightened. People have weaponised this debate in this Chamber. Whips are frightened for their flocks, because Members of Parliament now feel that they have to vote in a certain way in order to safeguard their safety and that of their family. That is a far bigger issue than the debate we are having tonight, because if people are changing their votes or their behaviour in this place because they are frightened of what may happen to them or their family out there, we have a real problem. So this point scoring off each other is not going to resolve many issues.

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[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his point of order. He speaks with his usual passion. He is absolutely right to say that what we now need to do is to move on. I want to put the Question and then we will move on to a further debate.

[Neil O’Brien (Harborough) (Con)]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I do hope that Mr O’Brien is following in that spirit.

[Neil O’Brien]

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I believe that today the SNP has been treated unfairly. But it is not just the SNP that has been treated unfairly. Those of us who would like to vote for the SNP motion must now, if we want to do so, vote against the Labour party’s amended motion—a motion that the hon. Member for Rhondda (Sir Chris Bryant) has just said would, if we voted for it, lead to an immediate general election, so we are being placed in an unfair position if we wish to support the SNP motion. We have now seen the exit of SNP Members and many Conservative Members from the Chamber. We are clearly in an intolerable situation. It is a sad situation, Madam Deputy Speaker.

I believe that the current Speaker is a man of honour who has done a great deal over recent years to restore the reputation of the Chair after a dark period for this House. However, even if he believes that the constitutional innovation that he has introduced today is a good one, this was not the time to change the rules. We have heard from the Chair of the Procedure Committee that there is a serious question about the order here and the constitutional propriety of the order in which these questions are being taken—a question being put by the SNP too. May I suggest, Madam Deputy Speaker, that if you are not prepared to suspend the House, we at least defer the Divisions that are supposed to be happening this evening until we can resolve these issues?

Finally, because in this House it is courteous and traditional that the person about whom one is talking is always in the Chamber when they are discussed, we should defer those Divisions so that we can hear from Mr Speaker himself before we come to vote on these issues, because otherwise a great injustice is being done to the SNP and to other Members of the House.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his point of order. I just want to be clear again that there was the ability to have a vote on all three motions that were before the House. The situation has changed, but that does not mean that I would then withdraw the questions and not put them, because they are still before the House, and I intend to proceed with them in the way that I have suggested.

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I was going to suggest that the Speaker displayed immense flexibility this morning, and that that flexibility was exerted again to enable us to have a separate vote. However, now that the SNP Members have gone, there is no other way that I can do this to ensure that my constituents know that I will be voting for the Labour amendment, but I would also have voted for the SNP motion. I want that on the record.

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[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

I am going to take a point of order from the Chair of the Procedure Committee. I gently suggest that right hon. and hon. Members restrain themselves. I think the Chair of the Procedure Committee may have something to share with us about what she is looking at, at Mr Speaker’s request, I believe.

[Dame Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con)]

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. The hon. Member for Rhondda (Sir Chris Bryant) is correct that in the precedent there was a Conservative amendment to a Liberal Democrat Opposition day motion, but there was no Government amendment, and that is the difference. As there is no longer a Government amendment, I am confused about why we are not returning to the order of precedence set down in Standing Order No. 31.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Because of Standing Order No. 31, I am bound to take the Labour party amendment first and then move on to the SNP motion. That is all the advice that I have received, and I am sure when the hon. Lady—

[Mr Wragg]

I beg to move, That the House sit in private.

Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 163).

The House proceeded to a Division.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Will the Serjeant at Arms investigate the delay in the Lobbies?