Scottish Referendum Legislation: Supreme Court Decision

Baroness Winterton of Doncaster Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd November 2022 Commons Chamber

[Mr Jack]

This idea that a mandate was delivered in 2021 in the Holyrood elections is completely misleading. As the First Minister herself said very clearly in an interview in The Herald—this is when she thought that the former First Minister, the previous SNP leader Alex Salmond, was gaming the system with his party Alba—that parties should stand on both the list and first-past-the-post constituency systems. The Greens did not fulfil that and neither did Alba. Let us be clear: in the 2021 Holyrood elections—the so-called mandate—less than one third of the Scottish electorate voted for the SNP.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

I call the shadow Secretary of State for Scotland.

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[Gavin Newlands]

Answer the question!

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order. The hon. Gentleman cannot just sit there yelling. It is a really bad look. I call Amy Callaghan.

[Amy Callaghan (East Dunbartonshire) (SNP)]

I will ask the Secretary of State the same question that I asked the Prime Minister just a short while ago, to which I am still waiting for an answer. What is the route for a nation to leave this so-called voluntary Union? He has answered three times now referring to a majority of votes, so would the Government respect the result of a general election as a de facto referendum?

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[Mr Jack]

The hon. Lady speaks for many people in Scotland who fear the same thing—[Interruption.]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order. The more people yell out, the further down the order they will go. I call Alan Brown.

[Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)]

We are supposed to be living in a parliamentary democracy. As such, last year the SNP won 62 out of 73 constituency seats—85% of the seats. That is equivalent to a party here winning 552 seats. There is a pro-independence majority in Holyrood, and in the last four elections, a majority of voters voted for parties that support independence and having a referendum. If the Secretary of State is going to ignore a parliamentary democracy and parliamentary votes of the people, what is the route for the people of Scotland to have a referendum and have their say?

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[Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow North East) (SNP)]

The Supreme Court today did not rule that Scotland should not be independent or that Scotland should not be able to have a referendum; it ruled that the existing legislation written by Unionist politicians does not allow the Scottish Government to make that decision, unless the UK Government are willing to amend it, as they did in 2014. That is the legal argument.

I want to know what the democratic argument is against Scotland being able to do that. In the Scottish Parliament elections—one of the eight elections we have won since 2014—not only did the SNP leaflets say, “Vote SNP for a referendum on independence”, but the Tory leaflets, the Labour leaflets and the Liberal Democrat leaflets all said it. What is the democratic argument against Scotland and the people of Scotland being able to simply answer that question?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order. It is important, if we are to get everybody in, that the questions are short.

[Mr Jack]

It is important we get everyone in and they have their say. I refer the hon. Lady to the answer I gave earlier: less than a third of the Scottish electorate voted for the Scottish National party. It is entirely a matter of consensus, and at the moment we believe that the priorities should be elsewhere. The cost of living, supporting people through inflation, the energy price cap, getting on and delivering freeports, delivering on the growth deals—those are the things that we think the people of Scotland expect us to do.

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[Mr Jack]

The claim of right? We had a Union of the Crowns in 1603 and a Union of the Parliaments in 1707, but they were all a terribly long time ago. We firmly believe that we have a strong partnership that has endured for more than 300 years and has delivered for all parts of the United Kingdom, and that we are better together.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

I thank the Secretary of State.