Protecting Older People from Fraud (Wales)

Roger Williams Excerpts

Tuesday 15th October 2013 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Stephen Crabb)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Weir. I pay tribute to and congratulate the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy), a distinguished former Secretary of State for Wales, on securing this debate on the importance of protecting older people in Wales from fraud and scams. I am aware of the specific companies and cases he raised, and I hope to provide some reassurance on how they are being investigated and what the UK Government are doing, working with the Welsh Assembly Government and Welsh local authorities, to make progress.

I confirm that officials in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills are in contact with trading standards colleagues in Cardiff and at the National Trading Standards Board about the three companies he mentioned. They are under active investigation. I understand that the Cardiff trading standards team and the Welsh scambusters team are investigating the issues raised by the right hon. Gentleman and they have been outlined in the BBC television programme he mentioned.

More broadly, I pay tribute to Age Cymru and its research on the matter. I met its representatives back in April to talk about the issue, and I know that many other Welsh Members of Parliament from all parties have also met people from the organisation. I pay tribute to it for its excellent work to help to protect and support vulnerable elderly people, to enable them to live their lives in comfort.

I hope that hon. Members will be interested to know that my noble friend Baroness Randerson, the other Under-Secretary at the Wales Office, will be holding a round table meeting at the Wales Office next month to support Age Cymru’s work. As part of that, we are bringing together organisations from across Wales, including enforcement and consumer protection agencies, Royal Mail, BT and Ofcom, to discuss how we can work together to reduce older people’s exposure to such scams.

I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman is aware that the cross-party group on older people and ageing at the National Assembly for Wales met only last week to discuss the issue and took evidence from a variety of stakeholders. We have invited the chair of the group to participate in our round table next month, which I hope will join up the discussions that are happening in Cardiff with the issues that we are focusing on at UK level.

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

The right hon. Gentleman has raised a particular type of scam affecting Wales. A constituent, Mr Davies—I call him that because it is his name—responded to persistent attempts to get money out of him for carbon credit and eventually sent £3,000, which he has not seen again. Local police say that they cannot investigate because it is too complicated, and the Serious Fraud Office says it is below its threshold. Will the Minister take that on board, and perhaps talk to me afterwards to look for a way forward to ensure that people receive justice?

[Stephen Crabb]

I thank my hon. Friend for raising that case. Without more detail, I cannot comment further, but I would be very disappointed if Dyfed-Powys police or the Serious Fraud Office were not able to investigate. Let us see the detail, and hopefully we can raise that issue and get some progress on it.

We know that more than 3.2 million people—nearly 7% of the entire UK population—fall victim to scams each year, and that fraud and scams generate more than £9 billion of individual losses each year. That figure is truly staggering. We can all say that we are in complete agreement in this room this afternoon about the need to protect all sections of society, and especially the elderly, against the harm caused by scams.

I take on board the point made by the right hon. Gentleman about the level of prosecutions concerning reported scams. It is important to recognise and put on record that it is notoriously difficult to investigate phone and e-mail scams and to pursue the culprits behind them, because so often the scams originate overseas. The solution, therefore, cannot just be one of enforcement, and that is where prevention comes in, as the right hon. Gentleman mentioned.

In Cardiff, for example, the trading standards team recognise that prevention is key to reducing such crimes. Last year, they set up monthly victim support meetings with South Wales police and other partners, such as Age UK, Age Cymru, Victim Support, and Care & Repair. They work to identify victims of scams and doorstep crime and provide further support, advice and education. As a result, they report that they are seeing the number of cases raised at meetings decline. Through making people aware of how to spot and avoid scams and by utilising telephone and mailing preference services, we can reduce exposure to scams and the likelihood that someone will be taken in.

The Government provide for advice on scams through various agencies—particularly through the citizens advice service, which provides clear and practical guidance to consumers over the phone and on websites. As a Government, we are also taking steps to ensure that people are aware of scams and know what to do if they suspect a scam.

Investing in Britain’s Future

Roger Williams Excerpts

Thursday 27th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Danny Alexander]

As we are the first Government to have committed to undertake that work, I thought that the hon. Lady would have welcomed it.

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

There will be a broad welcome for the certainty that is brought by the Chief Secretary’s announcement of a new prison in north Wales. However, any announcement on infrastructure spending by Departments whose responsibilities are devolved to Wales will have Barnett consequentials. Will he give a flavour of the consequentials that will accrue to the Welsh Government?

[Danny Alexander]

The Barnett consequentials of the 2015-16 public spending round were set out in the Chancellor’s statement yesterday. On the resource side, the Welsh Assembly Government will see a small reduction in their budget and, on the capital side, a small increase. I am sure that they will work with him to ensure that the money is used wisely for the benefit of the people of Wales.

Legal Aid (Rural Wales)

Roger Williams Excerpts

Wednesday 26th June 2013 Westminster Hall

[Mr Williams]

The hon. Lady pre-empts another of my later remarks. The relationship between solicitors and those repeat offenders is critical, and we risk losing that.

It is asserted that there would be four providers across the whole of Dyfed Powys. There would be real access issues, and are the proposed consortia feasible? As we have heard from hon. Members, the proposals plan to have four providers across the whole of Dyfed Powys, four across the whole of north Wales—sorry, I correct myself—and four in Gwent and nine across the whole of south Wales. By contrast, 37 contracts are planned for Greater Manchester, which has a similar population to south Wales. Again, will the Ministry of Justice, and the Whip speaking for the Ministry today, outline how that was calculated? How was rurality factored in? Although my hon. Friends from south Wales and the M4 corridor will have strong feelings about the provision of access there, for those of us who work, live and function in mid-Wales and north Wales, the picture is disastrous. We lose out yet again, and we are put at a real disadvantage compared with other people across the country.

My next concern is that competitive tendering at 17.5% less will drive solicitors out of business. The competitive tendering proposed for contracts remains a major cause for concern. It will simply drive solicitors out of business. Those remaining will be firms that are willing to cut costs, possibly to unworkable levels. That would lead to tenders being awarded to less able and potentially less experienced firms, which may find themselves unable to deliver on the prices promised to secure the tender. I am clear in my mind where I would like to go if I needed legal advice. However, there is the spectacle of Eddie Stobart or Tesco providing the service. The Co-op has been mentioned recently, and I am a great supporter of the Co-op. It is an admirable place to go to buy food and it has a fine record of burying people—the Co-op funeral service is very good—but we should not be using such examples to justify changes to the legal system.

I am greatly concerned about the capacity of companies such as Capita, GEOAmey, Serco and G4S—and whether they are best placed to represent my constituents. My colleague in another place, Lord Thomas of Gresford alerted us in a Queen’s Speech contribution to Stobart Barristers—an offshoot of Eddie Stobart trucks. Lord Thomas noted that the Stobart Barristers legal director, Trevor Howarth, had confirmed that the firm would bid for the new criminal defence contracts and had said:

“We can deliver the service at a cost that’s palatable for the taxpayer… Our business model was developed with this in mind. We at Stobart are well known for taking out the waste and the waste here is the duplication of solicitors going to the courtroom. At the moment there are 1,600 legal aid firms; in future there will be 400. At Stobart, we wouldn’t use 10 trucks to deliver one product”.

As my noble Friend concluded, the problem with that is that criminal law is not a unit and justice is not a product that can be delivered like a load of bricks. That is the contrast in terms of what we are facing. There is a real fear that many of our high street solicitors will be lost; many will go out of business. The firms with the most cut-throat prices and cut-throat tactics will be the most successful, but I believe that liberty should be in the hands of the best, not the cheapest.

I come now to the loss of specialisms.

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

My hon. Friend is making many very good points, but surely one of them is that the people who supply these legal services will be given a financial incentive to get their clients to plead guilty. Surely, that is a characteristic of a totalitarian state, not the liberal democracy to which we aspire.

[Mr Williams]

My hon. Friend and I agree. He uses a very emotive word to describe what I think will be the reality on the ground.

Under the proposals, a call centre will allocate a lawyer from any background—an impersonal experience in itself—who might provide a minimal service to meet the requirements of the contract. People will not be able to select a firm by reputation, by personal recommendation or, sadly, by past experience. That discourages good practice and good performance among professionals, as those who gain a contract will get clients regardless of performance. Therefore, clients will be unable to choose a firm according to the nature—sometimes, the specialised nature—of their case. I have said this before and it is worth repeating: let us not understate the importance of the relationship between solicitors and clients and the trust that has been built up.

Solicitors in my constituency are concerned that the consultation document encourages solicitors not to provide a good service—not to provide the best service. The aim is to be “above acceptable levels”. That is a worrying prospect.

There will be a lack of choice. Owing to the call centre allocation of solicitors, clients will be left with no choice of representation. They may have a lawyer who does not know them or the area in which they live and who certainly does not know the background to their case. As the hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) said, a different company could represent them at different stages. I think that that is bad.

The consultation document suggests that the same fee will be paid—this is the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams)—whether or not the matter is contested. Those firms that are awarded contracts will have a financial incentive to do minimal work to make their business sustainable, to the detriment of the client’s case. That could lead to a perverse incentive for legal advisers to recommend that clients plead guilty, as they would receive the same fee regardless of plea—a conclusion that certainly the solicitors whom I have spoken to are concerned about. They believe that suspicion may be created between client and lawyer.

I want to end where I started, with the effects on language. When we are talking about the consultation, there remain serious issues surrounding the provision of language services. I have anecdotal evidence that the large firm Capita is regularly unable to provide interpreting services to courts in a timely manner. In my constituency, as I said, Welsh is the first language of about half the population. In many parts of Ceredigion, it is overwhelmingly the language of everyday use, so the issue to which I refer is a worry and a barrier preventing many people from accessing the representation to which they are entitled.

I want to ask the Minister and particularly those behind the scenes in the Ministry of Justice about their awareness of Wales and of the Welsh language. As the Welsh Government pointed out in their submission to the consultation, the Ministry of Justice’s own Welsh language scheme—a point that the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) mentioned—declares the Ministry’s commitment to the principle of treating the English and Welsh languages on the basis of equality. The current system of more local provision means that someone is more likely to satisfy Welsh language needs. These proposals mean that it is much more likely that a provider will be based outside the relevant area and even outside Wales, allowing no provision for Welsh language services at all.

The proposals are socially divisive, as only the wealthy will be able to afford to choose their own lawyer. Only those who can afford to will be able to determine how they are represented. Everyone else, if they are eligible for legal aid, will be allocated a lawyer via a call centre.

Some of the public narrative on the issue has characterised it as one of fat cat lawyers acting in their own interests, although if we talk to solicitors on the ground, the story is somewhat different. In reality, it is far more worrying. It is about universal access to justice, the credibility of our court and justice system and the responsibility of Parliament to ensure the continued efficacy of our justice system.

Overall, what has been billed as a simple money-saving measure will have far deeper ramifications for society. The proposals take the fundamental principle of access to justice away from anyone who cannot afford it, but it is a right, not a commodity to be bought and sold.

The Minister knows that this is a consultation, and the deliberations will go on about the various submissions. I sincerely hope that it is a real consultation and that the Government will look at the submissions, particularly those from us in Wales and the concerns that we have raised; and I hope that the Minister and the Ministry of Justice will therefore reflect favourably on the needs of rural Wales.

Rural Bank Closures

Roger Williams Excerpts

Tuesday 21st February 2012 Westminster Hall

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

It is a great pleasure to bring this important matter to the attention of the Chamber, and to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Brady. About a year ago, I secured a Westminster Hall debate on a similar matter. Another Treasury Minister responded to that debate, but it is a great pleasure that this Minister is present today to respond to my remarks.

I have secured the debate to reiterate my concerns about the closure of bank branches in rural areas. Although 20% of the population live in rural areas, it has never been more difficult for them to access money and financial services. As hon. Members may recall, I raised this issue nearly a year ago following the closure of Barclays bank in Rhayader in my constituency. That town of nearly 2,000 people was left with a single branch of HSBC bank that ran a reduced service just three days a week. Such a situation made it increasingly difficult for local people and businesses to access their money, and meant that they had either to change their account to HSBC, or travel 14 miles to Builth Wells and the nearest Barclays bank.

Sadly, Brecon and Radnorshire now has a new case study. On 9 March this year—unless the bank has a Damascene conversion as a result of this debate—the branch of HSBC in Presteigne will close. That will leave a community of nearly 2,500 people with just one branch of Lloyds TSB that is open only on Wednesday and Friday and between the limited hours of 9.30 am to 3 pm—a mere 11 hours per week. Furthermore, the branch has no cash machine, and I will return to that point. News of the branch closure met with a huge response from the people of Presteigne, who managed to collect more than 500 signatures in a petition against it. They see the closure as a desperate shame; one resident told me that she has seldom seen the bank empty, and that there is usually a queue.

Let me describe Presteigne in a few words. The editor of Country Life magazine, Clive Aslet, considers it to be one of Britain’s top 10 towns in which to live. It is an active, transition town that engages with environmental issues to an extent rarely seen in other places. It is heading towards a strategy of zero waste; a large allotment area has just opened and proved popular. The voluntary East Radnor day centre brings in elderly people from the countryside to share friendship and a meal together, as well as providing other services. Presteigne’s music festival is internationally renowned and premiers many musical compositions.

[Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)]

The hon. Gentleman is describing Presteigne, which sounds almost as beautiful and wonderful as north Harrow in my constituency. That area has also lost its last bank branch, which is impacting on businesses. Does he think that it is incumbent on the Government, perhaps through the Minister, to convene a summit of the big banks and demand that where a bank branch is the last in a community, banks must respect the need of that community for it to remain open? To help the Government achieve that objective, does the hon. Gentleman think that it is worth considering a British version of the Community Reinvestment Act, which forces banks to disclose where they lend and to demonstrate that they are performing well in order to maintain their banking licences?

[Roger Williams]

I believe that the Government have a role to play, and such a summit may be the way forward. We could also support trials of community banks in which a number of different banks come together to provide banking facilities, thereby cutting costs for individual banks but maintaining a facility for the community.

[Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

Should we not be a little careful about taking this issue out on the banks that are still in rural areas? We should be going after those banks that were first or second to leave an area, not those that have stuck it for as long as they have.

[Roger Williams]

My hon. Friend makes a good point, but the responsibility lies with all the banks. They have got to come together a find a way of addressing the problem.

[Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)]

Should the Government be looking at closures over the past 10 years, and at which banks have closed branches and which have not? They could then force banks to get together and create a common policy for bank closure programmes in rural areas. Each bank would take part of the burden so that it would not be left to just one bank.

[Roger Williams]

There is a theme running through the interventions that I have taken so far. The problem is a responsibility for all the major banks, rather than for a specific bank in a particular town or community, or even in Harrow. Banks should come together and solve the problem.

Presteigne is not only a sleepy country town; it contains a number of innovative businesses such as Mangar International, which manufactures, designs and supplies rehabilitation and assisted living equipment of a sort not found anywhere else in the world. Teledyne Labtech manufactures microwave circuits, and there are a number of other businesses. We were lucky to have attracted those businesses through the Development Board for Rural Wales, and a number of manufacturing facilities sprang up in Presteigne of which we are proud and wish to hold on to. I cannot, however, see us being able to attract that type of development if there is no bank in Presteigne—it is unlikely that businesses will be attracted to areas where banking is not available.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate; he has made some pertinent points. Last month I had a letter from my bank, HSBC in Y Tymbl. It is closing, so perhaps I should declare an interest. This issue affects valley communities, as well as rural areas. What thought has the hon. Gentleman given to alternative banking models such as credit unions? In Ireland and the USA, for example, those are mainstream institutions, rather than being banking for the poor as they are in Wales at the moment. They also perform an important economic function by lending to small businesses. Could that be part of the solution?

[Roger Williams]

The hon. Gentleman anticipates a theme that I intended to expand later in my remarks. I value the work done by credit unions, but in the area of Wales with which I am familiar, they do not seem to enlarge and extend their capacity to provide facilities for businesses, or even mortgages, but work only at microfinancial level. The hon. Gentleman makes a good point, and in these extreme circumstances it may be that the mutual model will once again establish itself and become more important in our communities, which I would welcome.

The Presteigne chamber of commerce has a very active chair, Rosamund Black. She fears that the closure of HSBC will cause extreme inconvenience and hardship and seriously damage the structure of the town. She said to me that people use the bank for more than simple financial transactions; the staff provide a vital service in offering advice and helping to solve the banking queries of many residents, particularly the elderly, whom they help with bill payments and other financial transactions.

However, despite the efforts of the community—I pay particular tribute to the mayor of Presteigne, John Kendall, to the Assembly Member for Brecon and Radnorshire, Kirsty Williams, and to the chair of the chamber of commerce—they appear to have been unsuccessful in persuading HSBC to maintain the bank. Indeed, that closure will follow other closures.

[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this timely debate. The HSBC branch in Kirton in Lindsey, in my constituency, announced recently that it was closing. The situation mirrors exactly what the hon. Gentleman is describing in terms of the role of the bank in the community. It is one of the key pillars of the community. Taking the bank away unsettles the whole community infrastructure in the way he describes, and that is not driven by customer preference. It is driven by the mission of the bank. In the case of the Kirton in Lindsey bank, it means that constituents will have to travel 9 miles to the nearest banking facility, so this is clearly an issue that needs addressing. I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on airing it today.

[Roger Williams]

The hon. Gentleman makes a very good point, because public transport in rural areas is difficult at the best of times. Requiring people to travel distances of 9 miles or, in an example from my constituency, 14 miles makes it very difficult for people to obtain the advice and support that they need in making financial decisions. There have also been a number of closures by HSBC in Wales. The closures in Llandysul, in Ceredigion, and in Llanrhaeadr-ym-Mochnant in Powys, in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies), have been among six closures in Wales since September. I think that there has been a total of 17 closures across Wales by HSBC since 2009, although I should add that not all of those have been in rural areas.

However, this debate has not been called to highlight cases in my constituency or to single out HSBC. A recent report from the Campaign for Community Banking Services produced a breakdown by region and country of the number of communities dependent on one or two banks, together with a report on the situation for individual banks. The latter revealed the halving of HSBC’s share of one-bank communities in England and Wales to 10% as it continues significantly to reduce its network coverage. Perhaps the case of Presteigne and other closures explain why there is no mention of HSBC’s popular slogan, “The world’s local bank”, in its January 2012 television advertising campaign.

Figures from last year show that since 1990, 44% of all banks, including converted building societies, have been closed. That equates to 7,555 fewer retail banking branches nationwide. That has left the UK with only 190 bank and building society branches per million inhabitants, which is very poor in comparison with the 940 branches per million inhabitants in Spain, 560 per million in Italy and 470 per million in Germany. There is a better geographical spread throughout those countries and they have retained far more locally owned branches. Granted, they generally make modest charges for operating personal as well as business accounts, but at least they have the face-to-face services that so many people still want.

The report of the Independent Commission on Banking, the recommendations of which the Government have pledged to implement in full, stresses the need for a challenger bank and increased competition in high street banking. The German model, for example, provides for excellent competition and a much more community-focused approach. Lowering the barriers to entry and facilitating greater competition could allow for banks specialising in lending to small and medium-sized enterprises, as the Federation of Small Businesses has suggested, for banks that have a more local or community focus or perhaps even for banks that specialise in providing facilities for groups that are normally hard to reach, such as rural communities.

2011 showed no sign of a slowdown in the number of closures. A Campaign for Community Banking Services report that came out earlier this month showed that the number of rural communities with only two banks remaining is 446.

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. He has been a consistent campaigner on this issue. He is setting out how, since he brought the issue to this Chamber in March 2011, the level of bank closures has continued apace. Is he aware of any improvements on the ground as a result of Government intervention—Government policies—since March 2011, or is the lack of any such improvements the reason for his bringing the issue to the Chamber again?

[Roger Williams]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention, but I think that I have made it clear that although I believe that the Government can take a degree of initiative in this field, it is really the responsibility of individual banks or banks as a whole to ensure that they are able to service these vulnerable communities, because they owe a debt of loyalty to them.

[Chris Ruane]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way to me again. I do not have the exact phrase with me, but does he recall the banker who said, 18 months into the recession, that the time for remorse is over? That banker misjudged the mood of the nation then and, indeed, now. Relying purely on the good will of bankers when that is the feeling from them—the time for remorse is over—is not likely to bring about the change that most of us in this Chamber want.

[Roger Williams]

In the long run, it is in the banks’ interest to ensure that they provide a comprehensive level of service to the communities that they wish to serve and services that are more accessible and more convenient. I think that it is probably the role of the Government to sit down with the bankers, as was suggested by the hon. Member for Harrow West (Mr Thomas), and set out what should be required of banks. Not all the banks were bailed out with public money as a result of the banking collapse, but all banks have benefited from Government action—quantitative easing, for instance—and just about all banks are dependent or have depended on measures that the Government have brought forward. It is time to sit down and see what can be achieved to help these communities.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on bringing this matter to Westminster Hall today. My constituency of Strangford has had two bank closures: the Ulster bank in Portaferry and the Northern bank in Balloo have closed. Two campaigns were fought, but not won. We did, however, win the campaign to save the Northern bank in Kircubbin, with community support. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the impact of closures on elderly people is horrendous? If there are not banks close at hand, they may carry cash around with them, and many of us will be aware of a large number of people who have been robbed as a result. Banks therefore have a responsibility to elderly people and to rural communities. Perhaps the Government could work together with the banks on that. Perhaps, somewhere along the way, banks need to carry a loss leader, covering their losses in such areas through profits in other areas.

[Roger Williams]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. Yes, I believe that there may be a role there. There is the American model of a shared bank, whereby one facility houses different banks. They share the costs and maintain a presence in the community. That may be a way forward; the Government could help with, or initiate, a pilot scheme of that type. I had intended to suggest that later.

[Mr Thomas]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for supporting the idea of holding a summit with the banks to discuss branch closures. Does he not think that having such a summit is all the more important given that the Government’s attitude to bank branch closures has arguably become more depressing since his previous debate last March? I ask that because the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, who has direct responsibility for this issue, has said:

“The Government do not intervene in…decisions as to whether, and where, banks maintain branches.”—[Official Report, 26 January 2012; Vol. 539, c. 329W.]

In a recent debate, he also suggested that if the Government intervened to stop bank branch closures, banks would continue to face high costs. Clearly, a more sophisticated Minister is answering this debate, and one hopes that she will have the courage to take a slightly different view. The answers to our questions surely underline the need for a summit so that banks do not think that the Government condone further bank branch closures.

[Roger Williams]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. One reason why I called for the debate is that I am not prepared to allow the closures to go unnoticed. By bringing the issue to the attention of the Government and right hon. and hon. Members, I intend to bring it to the attention of the big four banks, and a number of other banks. These large organisations have a social duty to which they should attend, but it would be useful if the Government could kick things off with an initiative and call for a summit, as the hon. Gentleman said.

When a bank has the last branch in town, it often makes a pledge of some sort to keep it open, but those pledges are often difficult to define; that creates a lot of uncertainty, which can be fuelled by such comments as those made last year by the British Bankers Association. It said:

“Branches will remain open if they are being used. But if the number of customers…coming into the branch falls, then the bank—like any other retail outlet—will need to look carefully at whether it is…viable to keep it open.”

Well, the bank in Presteigne was being used, but a different target was imposed on it, relating to the selling of financial products such as mortgages, pensions and loans. The population of Presteigne is rather stable; it may have made use of those products in the past, but it still expected services from the bank. However, the bank has decided to withdraw from the community.

[Nic Dakin]

Is it not true that banks are encouraging—indeed, almost forcing—customers to go down the route of internet and telephone banking, often against customers’ wishes? That is having an impact on the footfall in branches such as those that the hon. Gentleman describes. These changes are being driven by the determinations of producers, rather than customers, which is a great shame.

[Roger Williams]

I thank the hon. Gentleman, who raises an important point. Information provided to me indicates that two thirds of customers between the ages of 25 and 45 will use internet banking facilities, while only a third of people over 65 have the aptitude to take advantage of such opportunities.

[Simon Hart]

That is one issue, but does my hon. Friend agree that another is whether people have the broadband access in the first place to enable to make use of these things?

--- Later in debate ---

[Roger Williams]

That is another point, and my hon. Friend makes it very powerfully. Perhaps the Minister would like to address that problem, too.

I appreciate the coalition Government’s commitment to keeping open post offices, which provide important outlets for financial products, but banks are still the preferred option for many people, particularly when they need advice and support in difficult times.

I have gone on a bit longer than I anticipated, and I am grateful for hon. Members’ interventions. The Government have a role to play. In the American model of a shared banking outlet, many major banks come together to ensure that their facilities can be provided at one point. The Government could have a role in ensuring that pilots exploiting that approach are set up with their backing. The town of Presteigne would certainly be willing and anxious to take part in such a pilot.

--- Later in debate ---

[Miss Smith]

The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that I shall have to leave that to the consideration of my colleague at the Treasury, whose portfolio it more properly is. However, as I said, I am sure that during a slow moment in Committee upstairs, he will read today’s Hansard and take the hon. Gentleman’s views deeply into account.

The Government recognise that people in rural areas experience much the same financial challenges as people living in towns and cities, even Harrow. However, living in a rural area can bring additional challenges apart from the obvious examples of bank closures. Exclusion from financial services can be less visible in rural areas than in urban areas. My hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) and others have highlighted a range of rural challenges. I have some understanding of them myself, having grown up in the fens in rural Norfolk. My first bank account was in a branch in a market town.

With regard to access to bank accounts, the Government are committed to improving access to financial services, as I shall explain, and in particular to bank accounts. It has been amply demonstrated that having a bank account is an essential aspect of modern life and that being able to access counter services at a branch while interacting face to face with staff is a service valued not only by individuals but by businesses. I have also heard the points made today about its tourism value. However, I must point out that decisions whether and where to maintain specific branches are commercial decisions and, as such, for the financial institutions in question. The Government do not intervene in such decisions, as a matter of principle.

All banking service providers must balance customer interests, market competition and other commercial factors when considering their strategy. I note the call by the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) for banks to balance social responsibility with those factors, but I will say at the outset that the Government have been clear about the need for a change in bonus culture and for banks to contribute to the real economy, support small and medium-sized enterprises throughout the UK and lend to families. The bottom line of today’s debate is that banks have customers, and it is clear that they must treat them fairly in taking decisions about them.

With that in mind, I will set out briefly the regulations that apply. Banks’ and building societies’ treatment of their customers is currently governed by the Financial Services Authority in its “Banking Conduct of Business Sourcebook”, which includes a general requirement for firms to provide a prompt, efficient and fair service to all their customers. The guidance agreed by the industry and the FSA sets out expectations of how banks should live up to that code of conduct and specific guidelines for how banks should behave when considering closing a branch.

The guidance states that if a firm plans to close or move a branch, customers should be notified at least 12 weeks beforehand and told how the firm will continue to provide retail banking services. That includes providing micro-enterprise customers with information on any existing inter-bank agency agreements. A notice should be placed in the branch, and consideration should be given to other local advertising and notification of local councils and community groups. The bank should provide information on alternative facilities offered by the firm in the locality, including its nearest alternative branch and nearest free ATM, as well as other channels through which banking services are provided.

My hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) mentioned free ATMs. I believe that the LINK network, of which, I note, he is perhaps no great fan, runs a phone line that customers can use to propose sites for new free-of-charge cash machines. Perhaps he might encourage his constituents to take that up.

The guidance also requires that customers be notified at least 12 weeks in advance of significant alterations to counter services or opening hours. On the back of those points, first, such arrangements clearly help customers make alternative arrangements to meet their banking needs. Secondly, they enable options to be considered, such as the action plans for which the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) called. Thirdly, to use an example that we heard today, I am pleased that people in Suffolk, Coastal could respond in that way. When people see a notice in branch buildings, some are clearly able to respond. Fourthly, however, that does not change the end fact that a branch may still be withdrawn.

Let us move on and note what banks offer in addition to their face-to-face services. Several Members have made the point today that banks offer services by telephone and by internet. My hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire raised the significant issue of broadband, which I am sure is on everyone’s minds. The Government have laid out significant plans to improve and complete broadband for rural areas. I could go into that more, but I suspect that that is a different debate and that you, Mr Brady, will not allow me to speak on it. I reassure Members that the Government understand that point and are acting on it.

It is fair to say that the channels I have talked about are not always appropriate for every customer and every service. As hon. Members have noted, having access to a branch with face-to-face services is particularly important for older people and for small businesses that may require cash facilities to trade. However, the fact is that phone and online channels are increasingly popular, and the provision of such services is expanding and diversifying rapidly, giving customers a range of choices as to how they manage their affairs.

It is important to note that many bank account providers have an arrangement for customers to access their accounts via post office counters, which I am glad that hon. Members have noted throughout today’s debate. I know that Members will welcome the Government’s stance on post offices, notably making clear commitments regarding the future of the network—that there will be no further closure programmes and that we will maintain a network of at least 11,500 branches and ensure that specific access provisions for rural areas are included. I understand that 80% of customers now have the possibility of withdrawing or depositing funds or checking their balance at a post office branch.

Hon. Members raised shared branching, which is where several banking providers pool their services in some way. That is an interesting idea that clearly requires a high degree of commercial collaboration. I return to my point that the best people to judge that are the banks themselves, and I would certainly encourage them to consider that idea and also mobile banking, which was also raised in today’s debate.

[Roger Williams]

I can understand why the Minister points out that the Government should not micro-manage banks, but surely, the piloting of an innovative proposal such as shared banking is something that the Government could actively introduce?

[Miss Smith]

I am afraid that that would not be something that the Government could introduce, as the Government do not run banks. Regarding the banks in which the Government are the majority shareholder, they are run at arm’s length, as all hon. Members know, but I hope that my words will serve as a small measure of encouragement. It is a positive idea that could and should be looked at by banks themselves.

Regarding what the Government are doing to promote access to financial services, we are taking a number of important actions to help consumers access the services that they need. We are strongly committed to promoting a diverse financial services sector that serves the needs of the wider economy, which is the one of themes of today’s debate.

To start with, we need to encourage access to savings products. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury announced last week that the Government have launched a steering group to design a range of simple financial products, which will help new participants enter financial markets to provide straightforward and easy-to-understand products. I am sure that all hon. Members present today will welcome that.

I reiterate that we want the industry to take a lead in designing simple products, because we want the products to be viable commercial propositions for customers that will stand the test of time. There is an opportunity for industry to innovate properly, which may include mobile or shared services, and to develop a range of simple products that—again we return to the key point—meet their customers’ needs.

Fuel Prices

Roger Williams Excerpts

Tuesday 15th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) on securing the debate. I was pleased to sign the motion, and to support his application to the Backbench Business Committee.

I have seldom witnessed so much unanimity across the Chamber, and I think that that is a sign of the seriousness with which people out there view the fuel situation. For a long time, my party—along with our friends in the Scottish National party—has argued in favour of some form of stabiliser. We tabled amendments to Budget motions in 2005 and 2008, and received support from outside organisations including the Freight Transport Association, the Road Haulage Association, the Federation of Small Businesses, and farming unions such as the National Farmers Union and the Farmers’ Union of Wales. Along with our colleagues in the SNP, we held an Opposition day debate on this matter in February this year, before the 2011 Budget in March.

According to the FairFuelUK campaign, fuel accounts for over 40% of all business transport costs. It is clear that continuing rises in fuel costs as a direct result of fuel duty rises will increase the pressure on companies that are already struggling to stay afloat, or perhaps already going under.

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

I agree with the right hon. Gentleman about the effect of high fuel prices on businesses. One way in which businesses can deal with it is by upgrading their fleets so that their lorries become more fuel-efficient, but that will not be possible if the current proposal to phase out 100% capital allowances is implemented.

Global Economy

Roger Williams Excerpts

Thursday 11th August 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Osborne]

Unfortunately, I cannot make the UK invulnerable to events elsewhere in the world. Of course there is a global connection. I would draw this distinction between what I am saying and what the previous Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), says. I am not saying that Britain has been blameless in the way it has handled its economy in the past decade or so. I am saying that we were the most enthusiastic participant in a global debt boom, and as a result we have one of the more difficult adjustments. That is, I am afraid, a statement of fact.

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

Recent reports have shown that the rural economy has the capacity to grow quickly if it has the right conditions. Will the Chancellor confirm in his autumn update on the plan for growth that those conditions will be met so that the rural economy can play its part in improving the national finances?

[Mr Osborne]

We recognise the specific needs of the rural economy. Meeting them is one of the specific work strands in the second phase of the growth review. I know something of the hon. Gentleman’s constituency. One of the absolute keys to rural economic development is getting the infrastructure right, especially rural broadband, which will open up all sorts of business opportunities in what would previously have been regarded as quite remote places. That is why we are right to be investing in rural broadband in Wales and across the UK.

Finance Bill

Roger Williams Excerpts

Tuesday 28th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hanson]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It is not just charities and the voluntary sector that are affected, but Welsh and other universities. In Wales alone, there will be £3.5 million extra VAT for universities to pay this year. Housing associations are affected, and the chief executives of the National Housing Federation and of the Homes and Communities Agency have said that the rise will cost an additional half a million a year in VAT.

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the problem for charities, which the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) mentioned, would exist whether VAT was 17.5% or 20%? The Labour party did not attend to the problem when it was in government.

[Mr Hanson]

Not just Labour MPs are concerned about this increase. The hon. Member for Colchester (Bob Russell), a Lib Dem MP, said in a debate last year that he wants to help charities that have been hit by this move.

We all accept that VAT is a difficult issue for charities, but it has been made more difficult by an extra 2.5% increase at a time of squeezed budgets, and when the Government are asking more of the charitable sector by cutting public sector spending generally. That issue of great concern was highlighted by my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas).

--- Later in debate ---

[Roger Williams]

The hon. Lady makes an important point about the construction industry, but does she agree that some of the problems in that industry were due to the previous Government’s abolition of the industrial buildings tax allowance, and indeed the agricultural buildings tax allowance, which led to a contraction in the construction industry?

[Roberta Blackman-Woods]

The previous Government’s investment in the economy led in my constituency to a huge growth in construction jobs for those working on not only fine public-sector projects such as our new hospital and our new school, but new housing. That has just disappeared. The really serious point that I am making is that there is no growth strategy from the Government parties to ensure growth in construction jobs in my constituency—in fact, quite the opposite. We know from national figures that there is an effect on the construction sector right across the country.

Financial Services (Rural Communities)

Roger Williams Excerpts

Tuesday 29th March 2011 Westminster Hall

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

I am very pleased to have the opportunity to bring this matter to Westminster Hall today. I can understand why the Minister might be a little reluctant to interfere in it, because presumably he would not want to micro-manage the affairs of many of our financial institutions. However, I may be able to suggest one or two ways in which the Government could have influence in the matter and ensure, by working with communities, that financial services and advice on financial matters are available to our communities.

Looking around Westminster Hall at the Members present, I wonder if the fact that my name is associated with this debate means that people think that it is a Welsh issue, but of course it is not. It is very much a reserved matter and one for the Westminster Parliament and the UK Government.

I was very lucky to secure this debate almost immediately after applying for it. Sometimes hon. Members apply for debates over a long period without securing them, but as soon as I applied for this debate I was very fortunate to receive the opportunity to have it.

The reason that I put in for the debate is the worrying trend of high street bank branch closures in rural areas. According to the Campaign for Community Banking Services, in the past 20 years 7,388 bank branches have closed and most of those closures have been in rural or suburban areas. The CCBS estimates that, in Wales alone, 56 communities are left with just one bank each.

I will use an example from my own constituency—hon. Members will understand that often these debates are initiated or spurred on by Members’ experience in their own constituencies. For the past six months in my constituency, the local Welsh Assembly Member, Kirsty Williams, and I have been trying to save a branch of Barclays bank in the small market town of Rhayader. Rhayader has a population of approximately 2,000 people, with many more people living in its rural hinterland and catchment area. Members present will understand that Rhayader is a marvellous market town in the Cambrian mountains, very close to the Elan valley. More than 100 years ago, the Birmingham Corporation built dams in that valley to provide water for the wonderful city of Birmingham. The Elan valley has now become a tourist area, along with other attractions in the Cambrian mountains.

Unfortunately, Barclays refused to keep its branch in Rhayader open and the people of the town are now served by a solitary HSBC branch, which is open for a total of 18 hours each week, between 9.30 am and 3.30 pm on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. The Barclays branch in Rhayader closed last Friday and already the building is being gutted, the “For Sale” sign is up and the cash point, which was a very valued facility for the town, has a sheet of plyboard across it. There is no more money to be had from the ATM in Barclays in Rhayader.

There is some strength in Barclays’ argument and I understand its argument. Barclays argues that the people who used the branch in Rhayader were not buying enough of its financial services and financial products to make the operation of the branch profitable. However, there is another argument that many of those people who used the branch actually bought services from Barclays in the past. They had their mortgages, pensions, saving products and general insurance from the bank and the fact that many of them have paid off their mortgage or are now receiving their pension means that there was not a good enough case for Barclays to say, “I’m afraid that from now on you won’t be able to have that face-to-face service that you have enjoyed in the past.” I believe that banks have a duty of care to the people for whom they provide products.

Another argument used for the closure of the Rhayader branch is that local people can use other branches nearby. However, let me give an example of the geography of this area. The nearest Barclays bank branch to Rhayader is in Llandrindod Wells, which is a 24-mile round trip from Rhayader. In mid-Wales, there is very little public transport, so that journey is very difficult for some people.

I want to give a few local examples to provide a little local colour. Daisy Powell runs the local newsagent in Rhayader, in the shop right next door to the branch of Barclays. She has banked at Barclays for a modest 52 years, during the time that she has run her business. She used to bank cash three times a week, but now she either has to drive for miles to bank cash or faces the anxiety of keeping cash on her premises. Another example is that of Jo and Chris Walton, who run a very good electrical appliance shop that was set up by their father. They have also had a business account with Barclays for more than 50 years and they too now face having to make long journeys to do their banking.

Now there are no banking facilities in Rhayader on a Tuesday, which is the livestock market day. Rob Lewis farms 150 beef cattle and 2,500 sheep at Pistyll farm, which is just outside Rhayader at Cwmdauddwr. As many local farmers did, he used to pick up his cheque from the auctioneers and bank his money at Barclays on the Tuesday after the livestock market.

There are also disabled and infirm residents, for whom the type of journey that I have mentioned would cause major problems. Ed Narborough is almost totally blind and uses a wheelchair. He has had to choose between changing banks to HSBC, which would mean not having a five-day banking service, or trying to make the journey to Llandrindod Wells.

One effect of the closure of the Barclays branch in Rhayader is that the town is now left with only one cash point. We all know how temperamental cash points can be. Just when someone wants that £10 to buy the last round of drinks that will bring an evening to a wonderful conclusion, they find that the cash point has run out of money or is failing to pay out for some technical reason. Rhayader relies on tourism for much of its income, but it is faced with having only one cash point machine and if that machine goes out of action at the beginning of a weekend or, even more worryingly, at the beginning of a bank holiday weekend, people will be unable to get cash within the town and are likely to move on to another town where there are better cash point facilities.

Barclays has argued that many of its customers are moving to online banking as an alternative to using a branch.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate. Lest we concentrate too much on Barclays, I am sure that it is right to say that other banks have taken similar steps to those that Barclays has taken. Does he share my concern about the potential closures arising from the announcement by Lloyds TSB bank that it will be divesting itself of perhaps 600 branches in the very near future and does he believe that such closures might have as bad an effect on local services in rural Wales and elsewhere as the closures of Barclays branches?

[Roger Williams]

I thank my hon. Friend for that point. When a company such as Lloyds TSB indicates that it will make branch closures, we can readily anticipate where those closures will be made. Indeed, I have some statistics about other companies and I do not wish to concentrate on Barclays. It is just that Barclays is in the forefront of my mind at the moment. It is not only Barclays that has been closing branches. In 2010, HSBC closed 52, Barclays 40, NatWest 18 and Lloyds TSB 11. As my hon. Friend pointed out, more closures are in the pipeline.

Online banking is, to an extent, a generational problem. To draw a parallel, in a debate on fuel poverty in this Chamber, it was pointed out that many people now have the opportunity to take advantage of competition in the fuel sector. A number of hon. Members were in the debate, but only two of us had never switched suppliers—me and my right hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Vince Cable). We were, I think, of a different generation. Many people who bank at small rural branches are not willing or readily able to switch to online banking. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) will be making a point about access to broadband and the internet, and such points were made very well in the rural broadband debate that the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) secured in Westminster Hall last week. Many of these people do not have access to fast, safe internet, so even if the will is there it might not be possible for them to bank online. I commend the Government for the excellent steps that they have already taken on rural broadband, but more must be done so that rural businesses, people and communities are not left behind.

I shall finish, as far as Barclays is concerned, by saying that during the process I have been speaking about it was announced that Barclays had made a profit of £6.1 billion, and that its chief executive, Bob Diamond, was receiving a £6.5 million bonus. Bob Diamond’s fan club in Rhayader is not full, and if anyone wants to make an application to join I am sure that there is plenty of capacity. Having said that, Barclays did not take any public money during the banking crisis, for which it should be applauded. It certainly benefited, however, from the liquidity measures and the quantitative easing that the Government implemented to help the banks through the credit crunch, so it should show more thought for its customers, whose taxes assisted in keeping it afloat during that difficult time. I should, of course, point out that it is not only Barclays that has been making closures, as my hon. Friend the Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) has pointed out.

I understand the commercial pressures that the banks are under, but they must understand the effects that closures have on tourism, economic development and customers in rural areas. What is the solution? The Campaign for Community Banking Services suggests that we set up a community bank—one centrally run facility in the community with face-to-face services operating on behalf of all banks and building societies. There would be only one set of overheads, and the massively reduced costs would be covered by all the participating banks. I understand that it would use the same technology as that which links ATMs, so the set-up costs would be not too large. A similar system in the United States has proved very successful. It seems an ideal solution, with our constituents continuing to receive the service that they so desperately need. Will the Minister outline any discussions that he has had on a similar community banking facility for the UK?

I want to say a few words about mutuals and credit unions. I am a member of the Brecon credit union, am well aware of the part that such organisations can play, and have recently met with representatives of the building societies that have remained in the mutual sector. They do a very good job of providing services in local areas, and are able to lend not just on an arithmetic income multiple but on their better understanding of the local economy and of the quality of employment in which many people who wish to get a mortgage are involved. The smaller mutual building societies complain that the reporting and regulatory requirements are more fitted to larger financial organisations. They would like the Government’s approach to be more risk related, and some of the very onerous regulations to be moderated in some way.

It is not just the closure of bank branches that is of concern. I am very pleased that the Government have announced that they intend to maintain, as far as possible, the post offices, which are the financial and social hub of rural areas but which have too frequently been closed. The Communication Workers Union says that 1,000 post offices—one in 10—closed in 2010, and about 2,500, many in rural areas, have been closed in recent years.

Although I am aware that mail volumes are falling, and that other services that branches offer, such as benefit payments, are moving online, I ask that the Minister, in conjunction with his colleagues in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, seriously take on board the value and worth of rural post offices. According to Age Concern, 44% of pensioners use post offices to collect their pensions, 43% use them for access to cash and 56% use them to pay their bills. At both a local level and a Government level, we must do what we can to prevent widespread closures and long-term temporary closures. There has been an announcement that the long hoped for post bank will not be proceeded with, but does the Minister have any thoughts on whether a similar facility could be set up to address many of the issues that we are debating today?

The next issue that I want to talk about could be a huge problem for all our constituents. The cheque has been an integral part of our lives for more than 350 years, but there are plans to phase it out by November 2018. We currently write more than 4 million cheques per day, and despite the decline in usage we will still be writing 650 million a year in 2018. Cheques are essential and irreplaceable in many situations, and they are particularly important in rural areas. There is currently no easier, safer or more efficient way to pass money from one person or organisation to another.

Cheques are easy to use, virtually fraud proof, can be posted or handed over anywhere, and are cheap, safe, popular and understood by all. The use of credit and payment cards has, of course, hugely altered payment methods by virtually replacing cash in most everyday transactions, but only larger businesses can afford the technology to install card machines and we are light years away from the day when every individual will be able to receive payments by card.

There is only one reason to get rid of cheque books— profit. Cheque books are more expensive for banks than credit or debit cards. Handling paper is not efficient according to the bean counters, and as all British taxpayers know to their cost, banks are driven by many things other than providing a convenient service for their customers. The abolition of the cheque will lead to an increase in the black economy, as people will start paying cash when a cheque would have previously been used. It could also lead to an increase in crime, as older and more vulnerable people who are unable or unwilling to use other methods start storing significant amounts of cash at home. We do not currently have a viable alternative to the cheque, and until we find one not even the thought of it being abolished should be entertained. Will the Minister ensure that no decisions are made on the abolition of cheques before a viable alternative is found?

In conclusion, these are difficult times for rural constituents, with rising oil prices and the necessary cuts to public services. People need good and proper access to financial services so that they can grow their small business, obtain a mortgage for their first home, or cash and pay in their cheques so the local economy can grow and flourish. Thank you, Mr Caton. I open the floor to my colleagues.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) on securing this important debate. I am sad that so few of us are in the Chamber, as the issue is vital to communities in general, and specifically to rural communities such as those in my constituency and, even more so, in my previous constituency of Caernarfon, which has a large rural hinterland, now part of Dwyfor Meirionnydd. I also congratulate him on his early-day motions, which I have signed. I checked; I have signed at least one of them. He has a track record on the issue.

A great deal of attention has been given recently to the bonus culture and high salaries in banks, but the changes in banking that have the most intimate and direct impact on our constituents happen on the high street: particularly, for the purposes of this debate, in the towns and rural villages of Wales. That impact has had less attention, as has the effect on jobs in the banking sector. A job in the banking sector is always seen as a safe and effective career. Several of my contemporaries at school went into banking. I come across them occasionally, and they are now on extended gardening or golfing leave. That is the effect when banks close, as many have done in the past few years.

We have been given briefing material for this debate. I will refer particularly to the Countryside Alliance’s briefing, which I found useful. According to my briefings, 7,000 branches have closed in the past 20 years, leaving about 10,000. That is a 40% change—ish; my arithmetic is not very good this morning—in provision, which is substantial. Rural banks face a threat. It is not only Barclays, which the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire mentioned, but HSBC and the other members of the big four. In my constituency, the Campaign for Community Banking Services has identified Llanberis as an area of potential difficulty, with only one remaining bank serving a large tourist area visited by many thousands of people during the summer. A couple of other communities in my constituency are in the same situation. Elsewhere, in Bangor, Betws-y-Coed, Wrexham and throughout rural north Wales, the provision of banking services is fragile and under threat.

Unfortunately, the banks have been less than candid over the years about what they are doing. The Select Committee on Welsh Affairs, of which I used to be a member, took evidence from banks some years ago about closures in rural communities. Interestingly, one bank provided us with a map showing that there was a bank within five miles of a community where another bank was closing. Unfortunately, a large mountain was in the way. One would have had to travel all the way down the valley and back up it to get to the bank that was allegedly five miles away, and the return journey would have taken most of the day on public transport. Banks have been less than candid.

I referred in an intervention to the potential danger that some Lloyds branches might close. I understand that Lloyds is in a difficult position—it must divest itself of parts of its operation due to European Community state aid rules—but about 600 branches are threatened, and I fear that they might be sold off. I understand from the press that the new chief officer of Lloyds, Mr Antonio Horta-Osorio, has announced that the plans to sell off the banks are to be accelerated, so the change will happen quickly. That is not only a threat to the Lloyds network; Lloyds also controls Cheltenham and Gloucester and TSB. People do not realise that it has several brand names. I am not sure whether the Government can do anything about that, but I will be interested to hear whatever the Minister has to say.

Local bank branches are vital to commercial activity. The hon. Gentleman mentioned shops in his constituency; the same is true in rural parts of my constituency. Equally importantly, local banks are also a good way to address financial exclusion, which I know concerns this Government greatly, as it did the previous Government. A bank in a community allows for a measure of inclusion; the converse is also true.

Assisting older people, people with a disability and vulnerable people with their banking needs is also an issue. Not everybody can do their banking over the phone or broadband. The Government have at last announced an initiative to bring superfast broadband to parts of Wales, including my hometown of Pwllheli, but that will not extend to all communities. I must mention Rhiwlas, as I always do when I refer to this issue. It is within sight of the university city of Bangor but has appalling broadband service, and there seems little prospect of its being improved. That is not a way out for many people and, as the hon. Gentleman mentioned, we might see the end of cheques, which would also be a tragedy.

On the current trend towards automated banking, my branch, HSBC in Caernarfon, is an excellent branch in the middle of town, but it has recently been largely automated. There are banks of machines for printing statements, depositing money and withdrawing money and a telephone that one can use to talk to somebody far away. The counter space has been reduced to two positions. I was there the other day. A member of staff was hovering around the machines to seduce customers into using them, but there was an enormous queue for the two positions, one of which was closed. People are voting with their feet. They would rather queue for 10 or 15 minutes than use the machines. That says that people appreciate the face-to-face nature of banking transactions. Banks divest themselves of that way of promoting their business at their cost.

HSBC has also introduced its own radio station. I do not know whether hon. Members have heard it. When one queues for a position, one must listen to pop music, news and advertisements for the bank’s own products. I almost think that HSBC is doing it deliberately to drive customers away; it certainly drove me to use the automated facilities. As I said, banks will have to learn—as have Departments, such as Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and the Department for Work and Pensions—that people like to discuss their business face to face. I would also say that face-to-face business is of itself good business.

My party’s policy for many years has been to set up local community-based banks. In fact, it was one of the central planks of our 2007 manifesto. If local community-based banks cannot be set up wholesale, we would like pilot schemes. I know that this Government and the previous Government thought carefully about setting up post banks, but if a scheme cannot be introduced wholesale, can pilot schemes be tried, just to see what would happen? Post offices offer themselves as ideal locations for providing access to personal and small business banking. I will not pursue the question of post office closures, Mr Caton—I am sure that you would stop me in my tracks if I did—but I note that there were 200 closures in Wales during the last wave of closures, 11 in my constituency. However much local people complained—I organised a series of public meetings in my constituency that were very well attended—the net effect was that 11 closures were proposed, and 11 closures went ahead. I was not sure from the hon. Gentleman’s remarks whether it is still Liberal Democrat policy to have post banks or community banks. It would be sad if that has changed.

Finally, in Cardiff we have a One Wales Government made up of Plaid Cymru and the Labour party, and we have invested recently in credit unions, which are an excellent way of providing small amounts of money—small loans—for people, and of saving small sums of money. The One Wales Government have invested a further £3.4 million in credit unions.

[Roger Williams]

One of the points on which I could have expanded is that there does not seem to be a root from which a credit union can progress to become a larger, more responsive financial service, such as the mutual building societies, which, of course, originated in small communities such as ours.

[Hywel Williams]

Indeed. There is a gap in the market. Credit unions are very good for people who need small amounts of money and need to save, but it is not so easy for businesses to access small amounts of investment. There have been huge complaints about the way in which the large banks have been acting in that regard recently. I am loth to mention cases, but a holiday business in my constituency closed down because trade was terrible and the bank withdrew its banking facilities. Without going into details, all I need to say is that it was winter—trade is always terrible in winter—and the bank would not wait until summer. I would say, therefore, that there certainly is a gap in the market. Our proposal as a party is for a postal bank—a people’s bank, as it were.

I will end by saying that I would like the Welsh Assembly Government to have the legal power to intervene in the market in that way if this place does not do so itself. I think that everybody understands that there has to be change. Banks are commercial organisations, but there has to be much greater social responsibility in their business.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hoban]

We were keen to ensure that the ICB has a focused remit to enable it to deliver its work on time, so that we could take forward some of the lessons that should be learned from the financial crisis, when large banks posed a greater risk to the economy. UK banking was consolidated, partly as a consequence of the Lloyds and HBOS merger, and the building society sector became more concentrated. That is different from imposing additional social obligations on banks, which the hon. Gentleman seems to favour.

The hon. Gentleman also touched on independent financial advisers. He should be aware that their advice is not free; it is paid for through commission, and it is not always entirely transparent how much is being paid. A move to a fee-based system will help improve transparency. It is important that consumers receive good quality advice. We live in a complex world of financial services, and as a Minister I deal with too many cases of consumers being given bad advice and paying a high price for that. There is a strong consumer-friendly element in the reforms.

The hon. Gentleman also talked about the financial services compensation scheme levy. It pays for the cost of failure among IFAs. It is an important part of the mechanism to give consumers confidence that if something goes wrong, the bill is picked up so that they are not left out of pocket. If the hon. Gentleman believes that the Financial Services Compensation Scheme should be reformed, and that someone else should pick up the levy, he should be clear which sectors should do so. My experience is that people are keen to offload the responsibility to someone else, but never clear who that should be. The scheme ensures that the sector swallows its own smoke.

Turning to the main issues raised by my hon. Friend the. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire, I recognise his concerns about the significant impact of branch closures in his constituency, and the fact that the HSBC branch in Rhayader has only limited opening hours. I also recognise that although people in rural areas experience the same financial challenges as people in towns and cities, living in a rural area may bring additional challenges. Exclusion from financial services may be less visible in many ways in rural areas compared with urban areas.

My hon. Friend referred to micro-managing banks’ activities. I am not interested micro-managing them, and that is as true for the banks in which the state has a significant stake as for those in which we have no shareholding. However, banks and building societies should serve the economy, and we are committed to improving access to banking, and transparency of financial products for consumers. Decisions on opening and closing branches are taken by the management team of each bank and building society on a commercial basis, and the Government do not intervene in such decisions.

My hon. Friend should recognise that the role of banks is not just about branches. They play a much a wider role in helping the UK economy, and we reached agreement with them earlier this year to encourage them to work in partnership to support the recovery, to increase the amount of money they lend to small and medium-sized enterprises, and to pay out lower bonuses than last year. They are more transparent about their pay, and are making an additional contribution to support business growth and the big society bank of £1.2 billion. However, there is more work to do to improve access to financial services, certainly among the most vulnerable groups, by supporting financial mutuals, and improving competition in the banking sector.

We are committed to improving access to basic financial services, especially for those who are vulnerable to exclusion, and we are working actively to ensure that all consumers can access an appropriate mix of financial services. Bank and building society branches are not the only channels for accessing financial services, nor are they necessarily favoured by consumers on low incomes. For many people, the barriers are significantly greater than simply having no local bank or building society branch to visit.

It is important that financial services adapt so that they fit the grain of how people run their lives. For example, many consumers without bank accounts express a preference for managing their finances in cash. They want direct control over their spending, and often believe that a bank account takes that away from them. For many, the financial services with which they engage most often are not in bank branches.

That brings me to the post office network, which has more branches than all the retail banks put together. An important part of the Post Office’s future sustainability will be the continued growth of revenue from financial services. The Government have promised that there will be no programme of post office closures, and in last year’s spending review we promised to provide £1.34 billion for the Post Office to modernise the network and to safeguard its future, making it a stronger partner for the Royal Mail. We have also said that expansion of accessible and affordable personal financial services available through the Post Office should be a priority. Our ambition is that all UK current accounts should be accessible through the post office network, making post offices the convenient place for people to access their cash.

[Roger Williams]

I thank the Minister for his comments on the debate. On a practical issue, people tell me that the one thing they value about banks is that they can talk in private about their financial concerns. That facility is not available in post offices. If the Post Office is to deliver more financial services, it must address that issue, as well as availability, with the public.

[Mr Hoban]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. As it expands the financial services that it offers, the Post Office will have to think about how to encourage take-up, and how to provide support and advice, if that is the route that it wants to take. I was about to acknowledge that the range of services that the Post Office will offer will not be the same as a community bank, which is an idea that he outlined.

There is a real challenge in putting in place the right model of financial services in rural communities. It is not right to mandate a particular model as being right. The impetus for new ways of developing services should come from the financial services sector. The hon. Member for Arfon complained about the HSBC branch that has become highly automated. The challenge there is whether that meant that the branch could stay open, and whether new technology is being used to keep more branches open by changing the way in which services are offered. There are some interesting challenges, and banks must work their way through them.

When thinking about how financial services best support families and businesses, particularly in rural areas, we must think more carefully about their changing nature. There is a risk of getting stuck in a particular view of how banking should work. People are turning increasingly to prepayment cards or e-money. For example, Tesco is making payment to short-term employees with an e-money card, instead of paying money into a bank account. We can learn from other countries how they have tried to get around lack of bank branches. We should think about developing new safe and convenient financial services using different channels.

Mutuals were mentioned a couple of times, and I am conscious of the excellent work done by credit unions, particularly in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire. Mutuals can be more accessible for those who cannot or do not want to access banks. The coalition is committed to a strong mutual sector that should have the capability to enrich British society. It is in everybody’s interest to do whatever we can to help the mutual sector prosper and grow, and for that to be achieved sustainably. Over the past few months, I have had the opportunity to start a meaningful dialogue with the mutual sector about its ambitions, looking at what services it can offer and how it can overcome the hurdles that have been holding it back.

Although mutuals benefit from not having to pay dividends to their shareholders, they have an obligation to their members. They have to strike a balance between meeting their wider obligations and providing returns to their members through higher returns on savings or lower borrowing costs, ensuring that they remain viable and competitive. Such considerations are at the heart of every decision made by a building society.

As a consequence of the financial crisis, there is clearly an appetite for change in the way financial services operate, and mutuals stand well placed to respond to that challenge. To help achieve it, the Government are implementing several legislative reforms to help create a more equal playing field in financial services, thus promoting diversity and providing a challenge to banks.

The legislative reform order on industrial and provident societies and credit unions has been a long time coming. It will be re-laid before Parliament shortly, and will introduce basic yet far-reaching reforms that will enable credit unions to modernise and grow. We will also take forward the implementation of the Co-operative and Community Benefit Societies and Credit Unions Act 2010 after the legislative reform order comes into force. That will bring the industrial and provident society name into the 21st century, and modernise the powers available to update legislation in the future.

My hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire asked about reducing the burdens on building societies. We will shortly lay an order that gives mutual societies—including building societies—the option to use electronic communications to engage with members and distribute certain statutory information, as opposed to sending it by hard copy. That will reduce costs to businesses and enable them to invest more in services.

In recent years, credit unions have made great progress in providing affordable financial services to people who could not otherwise access them. They provide an alternative to payday lending, loan sharks and home credit, and I want them to continue to develop and strengthen. We are providing additional support to those institutions outside the regulatory legislative process. Building on the financial inclusion growth fund, the Department for Work and Pensions will continue to support credit unions for four years through a new expansion and modernisation fund worth up to £73 million. The fund will seek to extend access to basic, appropriate financial services to many people on lower incomes, through modernising delivery and customer support systems.

[Roger Williams]

One concern relayed to me by mutual societies, particularly building societies, is about the burden of reporting that has to be done on a regular basis, presumably to the Financial Services Authority. That seems to be out of proportion to the risk that building societies present, and certainly to that presented by large commercial organisations.

[Mr Hoban]

My hon. Friend makes an important point to which I should have responded earlier. He lays down a challenge about the burden imposed on building societies and other financial services organisations. The FSA has looked carefully at the regulation of building societies. He will be aware that building societies were affected during the financial crisis, and there were several rescues as they had to consolidate. The concern is that a number of them moved into areas in which they were not entirely comfortable or well resourced to deal with, and that put the building society and depositors at risk. We need to ensure a proportionate regime for regulating building societies that recognises the risks posed to members and financial stability.

One area in which the Government are taking forward further work to support building societies, and an issue building societies have raised as a consequence of the financial crisis, is the need to find new sources of capital. We are working closely with building societies to identify an instrument that enables them to raise capital markets, will help absorb losses if they occur in the future, and is consistent with enhancing the stability and security of the building society sector. We are taking active measures to strengthen the mutual sector because we believe that its diversity can act as a spur to further challenges to the banking sector. It is an important part of the architecture of financial services, not just in terms of providing mainstream products, but in trying to provide greater access to groups that are harder to reach.

I have been fortunate to have enough time to expand on the subject at some length. I hope that my hon. Friend will recognise that although the Government cannot intervene in the individual decisions taken by banks and building societies to close branches, we are committed to taking further steps to improve access to financial services throughout the country, in rural and urban areas alike. We recognise that particular challenges face financial services in rural areas, and we will continue to look carefully at those issues and listen to concerns raised by hon. Members.

Fuel Prices

Roger Williams Excerpts

Tuesday 15th February 2011 Westminster Hall

[Miss McIntosh]

I am mindful of the point made by the hon. Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) about the land border between Northern Ireland and southern Ireland. In the European Union, the dream place to live as far as fuel duty is concerned is Luxembourg. I am reminded of the queues that I saw on a road in Luxembourg, which existed because the fuel duty is less in that country. So I am very mindful of what the hon. Member for Upper Bann has said and, as I said earlier, I hope that that is an issue that the Minister will respond to, because rural communities seem to be bearing the brunt.

RAC analysis of the survey “Family Spending 2010” shows that spending on transport for the average household was £58.40 out of a total weekly expenditure of £455. Transport is the biggest single item of expenditure, bigger even than food, rent, mortgage or entertainment. Obviously, ancillary services will suffer if transport costs continue to rise incrementally.

There are four options to discuss today. The first is not very realistic—it is the option to do nothing and maintain the status quo. Personally I do not believe that that is a sustainable or realistic option. Obviously, my preferred option is for the Government to pause on 1 April and not to impose the 1p rise in duty. Of course, that increase will be the eighth duty increase to have been proposed by the previous Labour Government since November 2008. I am mindful of the fact that if it is imposed, it would add at least 4p more to petrol and diesel pump prices, on top of the 1p increase in duty in January and the VAT increase as well.

The perhaps more controversial proposal to introduce a fuel duty stabiliser was first put forward by the present Chancellor when in opposition. As shadow Chancellor, he launched a fairly full consultation in July 2008 on a fair fuel stabiliser, a mechanism to ensure that when fuel prices go up fuel duty falls:

“So as the price of fuel rises, the amount of VAT charged also rises. This means that when the price of fuel goes up, the amount of tax charged on it also rises…The current system also makes the public finances more unstable. This is because, when oil prices rise, the Government receives an unexpected windfall from taxes on North Sea Oil production. And when oil prices fall, the Government suffers an unexpected shortfall in revenues.”

I take some comfort from the fact that the Chancellor, in his June Budget, said:

“We are examining the impact of sharp fluctuations in the price of oil on the public finances to see if pump prices can be stabilised, and we will also look at whether a rebate for remote rural areas could work.”—[Official Report, 22 June 2010; Vol. 512, c. 178.]

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

The hon. Lady has set out the virtues of a fuel tax stabiliser, but does she agree that that still does not address the differential between prices in rural and urban areas, which makes it so difficult for the small businesses that I represent?

--- Later in debate ---

[Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh) on securing this important debate. I apologise to her, the Minister and yourself, Mr Turner, for possibly having to leave before the Minister has completed her wind-ups.

I shall try to bring together some of the comments made this morning by mentioning two examples from my constituency that illustrate the problem we have. The first issue is something we have not referred to this morning: the cost of domestic fuel for purposes other than simply driving. I thank my constituent Colin Keen for raising that matter. I shall give a quick example. Between Christmas eve and about the middle of January, people who were tied into domestic fuel contracts with a company called Flogas had a 46% increase in their fuel prices. That is an unsustainable and unjustifiable increase, which has a considerable indirect and direct effect on the rural community and the rural business network. It would be helpful for the Minister to address the problem experienced—at least in my part of the world—by a number of householders who are on large estates. They are tied into lengthy fuel contracts that they cannot reasonably or, in some cases, legally get out of. Their domestic fuel prices are apparently being adjusted without any reference being made to them and without them being able to do anything about it at all.

The second example I shall refer to is that of another constituent, Mr Barry Jones. He has studied local supermarkets and has pointed out that we are not necessarily getting a fair crack of the whip from them. He highlighted that Tesco in the rural town of Carmarthen is charging different prices from Tesco in the more urban setting of Llanelli down the road. There is up to 4p a litre difference. Tesco in Carmarthen argues that it is setting its prices in line with local suppliers. That is fundamentally untrue; it is not. It is setting its price at a rather different rate. I cannot help but think that such a situation is slightly ironic when I see a Tesco tanker with a slogan on it that reads: “Why pay more?” The answer is: because we have no choice. Perhaps we can address the grip that the five big supermarkets seem to have over every aspect of our lives, particularly in rural communities.

My hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton made a further point in her introductory comments about the overall inflationary effect of the issue on rural communities. What we are seeing—and what was being reported on the BBC this morning—is that there has been a much more profound increase in the price of things we need over and above the price of things we want. Fuel hikes have a very different downstream impact on the things we need compared with the things we occasionally want.

That brings me neatly to a further comment about the definition of rurality, which has been touched on in different ways by a number of hon. Members this morning. Several years ago, I tried to get a proper definition of rurality and, perhaps rashly, I asked the pollsters Ipsos MORI for one. It did not have a definition of rural and the people I asked simply said to me, “Well, it’s anything that isn’t urban.” If I may respectfully say so, that is a particularly unhelpful suggestion. Rurality comes in very different forms: isolated, very isolated, fairly isolated and, simply, rural. We need a clearer indication from the Minister and perhaps other interested bodies of what rurality and isolation really mean. I can foresee that some difficult choices and decisions will have to be taken and that they will be based on a line on a map that might mean everything to a bureaucrat, but that will mean absolutely nothing to those of us who live and breathe rurality every day. We might have constituents who fall the wrong side of a line and are prejudiced against—I accept that that might be unintentionally—as a consequence. That definition is important.

We have been told that up to 600 filling stations are closing every year, which means that people have to travel that much further to get their essential fuel. We are told that local authorities in certain parts of the country are cutting back on their rural bus services because of the increase in fuel prices and the downstream effect of that. However, we cannot lose sight of the direct and indirect effects of the issues discussed in this morning’s debate. The matter is affecting directly and indirectly pensioners, care workers, volunteers and hauliers. I can think of two hauliers in my constituency that are based in isolated rural areas so that they can be close to the ports of Pembroke dock and Fishguard. They are in an ideal location, but they can pretty well do nothing about fuel prices. They cannot even go over to Ireland—the Republic—and get a better price. Such price increases are playing havoc with their cash flow.

[Roger Williams]

The hon. Gentleman’s hauliers, like my hauliers, suffer competition from people who come over the channel with a full tank of fuel and carry out transport business. That is a great disadvantage to our hauliers, who have to pay the full amount applicable in this country.

[Simon Hart]

That is a good point. I think I recently read a coalition announcement that a surcharge might be applied to those foreign hauliers. It is worth remembering that hauliers cannot function without three things: vehicles, drivers and fuel. We cannot simply turn around and say that they have to address their overheads in the way we might do so with other businesses. They cannot function without those three vital ingredients.

I shall finish by touching on the big society—I think I have read about that in the news in the past 24 hours—and the social mobility that will come as a result of that. Every hon. Member who has spoken this morning has mentioned the effect of fuel prices, whether domestic or for vehicles, on their daily lives and on how they conduct their businesses. Every one of those observations could have been a direct reference to the big society. We cannot deliver the big society in rural Wales or rural Britain under the current conditions. There are people out there for whom the big society has been a part of their daily life for years, but it is becoming increasingly difficult to be champions of the big society because of fuel duty.

I am not high enough up the political food chain—nor, indeed, are other hon. Members here—to make these decisions, but they need to be made and, as an hon. Member said, they need to be made urgently. Whether it is a rebate, whether it is a stabiliser, whether it is a freeze on duty, or whether it is a combination of those things, the most pressing need for rural Britain if it is to be able to remain in business and deliver the big society is clarity and urgency. I hope that the Minister can address them both this morning.

--- Later in debate ---

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

Thank you, Mr Turner, for calling me to speak in this debate, which is of huge importance. I, too, congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh) on securing this debate. This issue is probably more important and relevant to the problems facing my constituency at present than any other that I can think of, and it dominates a lot of conversations.

I intend to make a fairly short speech because hon. Members have raised most of the points I wanted to raise; I do not want just to repeat them. However, fuel duty is particularly important where I live for two main reasons. One is the absolute cost. As with a lot of rural areas, fuel is essential to us. We cannot just pick up a newspaper in a local shop; we have to drive to the shop. We cannot access any services without having to drive to them. That point is more relevant in a sparsely populated area than anywhere else.

The second issue is competitiveness, about which my constituency neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams), made—twice, I think—an important point. Competitiveness is important because it affects not just transport hauliers from overseas but those in Britain. The position of small businesses and individuals where we live is incredibly difficult because of competition. The price of fuel is acting as an anti-regional policy that is persuading people to move out, simply because of cost. This is not about individual, large purchasing decisions; it is the accumulation of all the little things that everyone has to buy that makes living so much more expensive.

I do not live on an island, but Montgomeryshire, and Brecon and Radnorshire, are very sparsely populated. Most of the sparsely populated parts of Britain are probably represented here by hon. Members who have made interventions. We want something to be done, but I know perfectly well that that is much easier said than done. There are two issues that must be dealt with: we have to face up to the world market that has caused fuel prices to rise, and which we do not have any great control over; and there is the state of our public finances, which the Treasury has to deal with. We are in huge debt and massive interest payments must be repaid—that cannot be denied. To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to reduce taxation anywhere in the Budget is a difficult request, and a balance must be struck. However, we also know from what he has said previously that he is sympathetic on this issue. He has spoken about a fair fuel stabiliser in the past, and that is certainly one way to address it. I can see the question of the use of a fair fuel stabiliser giving rise to great difficulties, and I am certain that the advisers working for the Chancellor are looking at how those difficulties could be ironed out. I can see that there are problems.

The second issue, which interests me more because it is getting a lot of coverage, is one that many Members have spoken about today and which I would favour: giving some form of concession to the parts of the country that are deemed to be sparsely populated or rural, where the impact of the price of fuel is greatest. It is said that we are talking about a figure of only 5p per litre, and that the concession would apply only to the remotest parts of Britain. In that regard, I, like others who are present today, want to make a pitch for where I live. Rural Wales is sparsely populated, and if we are to start this initiative in the remotest parts of Britain—that is what is being discussed—and if the Chancellor has to negotiate with the European Union on how a pilot scheme might be introduced, I hope there will be an early roll-out to constituencies such as mine, where it might make a difference.

[Roger Williams]

My hon. Friend does not need my help—he speaks with great experience and passion on this matter—but some people consider Cumbria the most sparsely populated area in England, although, as he and I know, Powys is four times more sparsely populated. That may add some strength to his bid.

[Glyn Davies]

I am hugely grateful to my honourable neighbour, if that is a proper parliamentary term to use. No, I did not know that it was four times more sparsely populated. As he started to speak, I was intending to go straight to Google to find out the relative levels, but I accept the figure he gives. We know that Powys is sparsely populated. In the past, there would have been Government initiatives to address the problem, but I cannot think of any current great initiative. We need one, and we need to be added to the list of places where fuel price alleviation might be provided.

I wanted to make this contribution, first, because the issue is hugely important to my constituents, and, secondly, to encourage the Chancellor to recognise in his Budget that it is one of the greatest problems facing the remotest parts of rural Britain. The insidious impact is, as I described earlier, an anti-regional policy that makes it far more difficult to bring development to the remotest parts of our country.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hanson]

The issues are real. Again, in response, can the Minister tell me why the pilot areas were chosen? What is the assessment of rolling out a rural derogation throughout the United Kingdom? What are the cost assessments for the pilot areas and, indeed, for the other areas bidding today? How do we change the current scheme of taxing oil when it leaves the refinery, rather than at point of sale?

[Roger Williams]

On people travelling to get cheaper fuel, the idea of a derogation is to equalise the price between areas, not that it is cheaper in rural areas than in urban areas.

[Mr Hanson]

As the hon. Gentleman knows, that still involves a cost. We have already seen great bids from a number of parts of the United Kingdom for the derogation to be applied.

Currently, tax on oil is levied on leaving the refinery, rather than at point of sale. The complex issues of a derogation involve not just fairness but also applicability and how to achieve the aims wanted on the ground. The Government must reconsider the real issues.

Finally, one of the big issues in the Chamber that has not been explored was touched on briefly by the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire: the role of the oil companies in the price of petrol. Shell will have made £1.6 million in profit during the hour and 10 minutes of today’s debate. Even after the cost of the Mexican gulf oil spill—£7.7 billion—British Petroleum made £1.8 billion in profit in the third quarter of 2010.

The Government have their responsibility for the price of petrol, but I am also interested to know what steps they are taking internationally about oil company profits—made, quite rightly, in part, from the cost of petrol. Are steps being taken to look at such levels of profit and at whether we can take action among Governments to make a difference? The issue has no easy solutions. We took action as a Government to reduce the price of fuel when it was under pressure. In the Budget, the Government have the opportunity to do the same with the proposed rise. I am interested in what the Minister has to say. The solutions proposed today are not all simple, applicable or desirable. We need to have cross-party consensus, and I appreciate that the Minister has a difficult job. She must now know what we knew in government: none of the issues are easy, without real pain to communities at large. I welcome hearing what she has to say.

Oral Answers to Questions

Roger Williams Excerpts

Tuesday 21st December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hoban]

I am not going to be lectured by the hon. Lady about attitudes towards banks. Labour is the party that gave Fred Goodwin his knighthood, so I will not take any lessons from Labour politicians. They talk tough, but they did nothing when they were in government. This Government are taking real concrete measures to tackle bankers’ pay and to introduce the bank levy, which they refused to introduce. In Europe there will be a most stringent application of the Financial Stability Board principles on bankers’ remuneration.

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

8. What recent discussions he has had on the introduction of a Government-backed sovereign sukuk.

[The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark Hoban)]

As chairman of the all-party group on Islamic finance and diversity in financial markets, my hon. Friend is well known for his close interest in Islamic finance. The Government believe that sovereign sukuk issuance would not offer value for money at the present time, but the situation remains under review.

[Roger Williams]

I thank the Minister for that reply. A sovereign sukuk issued by the Government might lead to two benefits: first, providing funding for the Government’s borrowing requirement, and secondly, giving readier access to liquidity for the growing number of Islamic banks that operate in this country. Will he agree to meet a small group from the all-party group on Islamic finance and diversity in financial markets to discuss this matter in more detail?

[Mr Hoban]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. We recognise the benefits that a sovereign sukuk could bring to improving liquidity in the sector, but significant costs would arise from sovereign sukuk issuance. However, I am sure that my noble Friend Lord Sassoon, who leads on this matter, will happily meet him and his colleagues.