Support for Ukraine and Countering Threats from Russia

Roger Gale Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd March 2022 Commons Chamber

[Sir Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con)]

I thank my friend the right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) for both his collegiate tone and the content of his speech. I wish I had the time to touch on a lot of it. However, in the time available to me let me say that I share entirely his view of the stunning bravery of the Ukrainian people under incredible duress. Equally, I share his desire to see Putin and all his commanders in court in The Hague as soon as possible.

This is a European city, a European country, a member state of the Council of Europe that is under siege and under attack. While men are staying to fight, women and children are fleeing across the border. I want to pick up on two points made by the right hon. Gentleman. The first is that the receiving countries, particularly Poland at the moment, need our help with humanitarian aid and all the strength we can afford in support of them. I had a call today from a little town called Zamość, with 15,000 people, 100 km from the border with Ukraine. That town is receiving trainloads of refugees at 800 per train. It is becoming overwhelmed. The people there simply cannot handle the volume of refugees flowing through their villages. We have to get help to them fast.

Secondly, we have to get the refugees we are prepared to take into the United Kingdom. Again, the sooner and more efficiently we can do that, the better. In 1956, we took refugees from Hungary in this country. In 1968, we took refugees from Czechoslovakia. In 1972, West Malling airfield in Kent played host to 28,000 Ugandan Asians fleeing Idi Amin. We have done it before and we can do it again. I have spoken with the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, my hon. Friend the Member for Torbay (Kevin Foster), and with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities, both of whom are now on a fast footing to co-ordinate this relief effort. The British people want to help, and we can.

Manston airport in my constituency is mothballed, but the owners have told me that they are prepared to make it available. The runway can be swept and cleared within half a day. The military hardware that my hon. Friend the Minister for the Armed Forces wishes to see sent to Ukraine can be flown from Manston almost immediately. We have the warehouse capacity and the runway capacity to fly it out. With the back-up of Kent fire brigade, Manston can then be used to fly in refugees from Ukraine and from Poland.

Next door to Manston is a Home Office facility that is capable of processing 1,000 people a day. It also has food facilities and accommodation. I urge those on the Front Bench to take on board the fact that those facilities are available. We do not have the time to wait; the people we are trying to assist do not have the time to wait. We can do this now. We can cut the red tape, and we must do it.

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[Catherine McKinnell]

People want to do everything they can to help. Local communities are working incredibly hard to support those communities in Ukraine in every way possible here in the UK and in the neighbouring countries. I think everybody should do what they can to help through local organisations and advertised means. BBC Radio Newcastle, for example, has published a list of places in the north-east where people can offer support and donations. Everybody who wants to help can and should do so, because that is something we can all do today.

[Sir Roger Gale]

I discussed exactly that circumstance with the Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities yesterday. He will be issuing details about how we can go about that, because many communities clearly want to help. The hon. Lady will find that it is in the pipeline.

[Catherine McKinnell]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman. That is an important example of how important it is to work together on a cross-party basis in this House. We are all working in unity to stand up on the issue.

The debate is important because we know that President Putin is banking on cynicism and apathy to win the day. He has doubted the west’s outpouring of solidarity. He thinks that it will not last and that it will wane, and that in the longer term, we will not want to bear the economic costs of what it will take to continue to stand in solidarity with the Ukrainians. We need to show the world that we are better than that and that we will not wane. I say in all support that our Government need to ensure that any economic pain that we have to shoulder as a country is borne by those who can bear it. That is the responsibility of our Government.

Our country has done what is necessary to defend democracy on this continent before and we will do it again. I stand today to declare my support and that of the thousands of constituents who have contacted all hon. Members, and to ensure that it is known that we have that support.

Covid-19 Response: Defence Support

Roger Gale Excerpts

Tuesday 12th January 2021 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order. We have one hour put aside for this statement, which I can extend slightly, but not by too much, so I ask colleagues to ask brief, succinct questions and to provide fairly brief answers.

[Sir Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con) [V]]

Madam Deputy Speaker, you will know that I have not always been uncritical of the test and trace process, but I believe in giving credit where credit is due. Yesterday, a member of my team had occasion to take a covid-19 test at the Birchington-on-Sea village centre in North Thanet. That centre was staffed by soldiers of the Gurkha regiment. Those attending report that their conduct was exemplary, they were courteous, patient and efficient, and the test results were recorded in short order. Will my right hon. Friend convey my thanks on behalf of my constituents to Brigadier Phil Prosser for all the work that these and thousands of men and women in the armed forces like them are doing in the war against the pandemic?

Defence

Roger Gale Excerpts

Tuesday 24th July 2018 Ministerial Corrections

[Mr Ellwood]

Thirdly, we want to focus on building exports, where there is an opportunity, as the Type 31 will be the first frigate built with exports in mind. We know that more sales can cut costs in procurement over time and give us the potential to buy even more cutting-edge ships.

The following is an extract from the Opposition day debate on Defence Industry and Shipbuilding on 11 July 2018.

[Sir Roger Gale]

I may have misunderstood the Minister, and I know it is not the custom to ask a question to which one does not know the answer, but I think he said that Royal Naval ships were confined to aircraft carriers, frigates and destroyers. Would that not also apply to any replacement amphibious craft that we might need?

[Mr Ellwood]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right—that would be considered royal naval class, so not manned by the Royal Fleet Auxiliary.

It is important that, as we move forward, we look closely at value for taxpayers’ money.

[Official Report, 11 July 2018, Vol. 644, c. 1045-46.]

Letter of correction from Tobias Ellwood:

An error has been identified in my response to my hon. Friend the Member for North Thanet (Sir Roger Gale) during the debate on Defence Industry and Shipbuilding.

The correct response should have been:

Defence Industry and Shipbuilding

Roger Gale Excerpts

Wednesday 11th July 2018 Commons Chamber

[Mr Ellwood]

I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman reads the report by my hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow to understand the full picture. My hon. Friend is correct that EU regulations provide guidance on building those ships. The regulations do not apply to royal naval ships because, from a security perspective, every sovereign nation is allowed to bypass them, but the rules absolutely apply to non-royal naval ships—as in Royal Fleet Auxiliary ships—that employ civilians on board. I encourage hon. Members to read the report before judging what my hon. Friend has just said.

Moving back to what I was saying, we must have an honest debate about what is happening, which is why we need to develop a modern, efficient, productive and competitive marine sector that allows us to build on the work that has been done on the Clyde, in the north, in Belfast, in Barrow, in the north-east, in the north-west and in the south-west of England. We have incredible capability, and I am pleased to see so many hon. Members representing constituencies in those areas in the Chamber today.

Our new shipbuilding strategy sets out exactly how we can achieve such a marine sector. We will continue to build Royal Navy ships only in the UK while encouraging international collaboration in harnessing open competition for other naval ships. Our new framework will ensure that the impact of UK prosperity will be considered as part of our procurement decisions. The 2015 strategic defence and security review created a new security objective: promoting our prosperity. Competition and strategic choice remain at the heart of our approach, but we recognise that there are several different models for working successfully with the industry, and we need to take further steps to bolster that and make the right decisions to enable a strong partnership between the Government and industry.[Official Report, 23 July 2018, Vol. 645, c. 7MC.]

That is part of the whole Government approach, spearheaded by the national industrial strategy, with its mutually reinforcing focus on driving productivity and supporting innovation, which provides a strong and clear policy framework in which industry can invest and grow. Key to that is how defence procurement might build economic value by strengthening UK productivity and industrial capability, including at a local level, and boosting exports sustainably. We recognise that responsible exports are now widely accepted as having a part to play in our wider national defence and prosperity objective. They are considered to be an opportunity, not a burden.

Sir John Parker’s 2016 independent review made a series of recommendations about improvements we can make, and, as I said, I am pleased that we will be accepting all of them. He did place emphasis on the dysfunctional relationships between government and industry. Old ships were retained in service well beyond their service date, with all the attendant high costs, and it is important that that changes. So our new strategy is founded on three pillars. The first is better planning, giving industry greater certainty and predictability. We are providing a 30-year Royal Navy shipbuilding masterplan to guide all future naval shipbuilding decisions, and to document the number and types of ships in which we will invest over the next three decades.

The second pillar is a new approach to design and construction. We want to challenge naval standards and introduce new ones, forcing through advances in design, in new materials such as composites, and in manufacturing methods. Our new carriers are a prime example of that. They are built in blocks, with parts built in different parts of Britain, drawing on the expertise of 10,000 people, and being brought together from centres of excellence from across the country. Thirdly, we want to focus on building exports, where there is an opportunity, as the Type 31 will be the first frigate for export since the 1970s. We know that more sales can cut costs in procurement over time and give us the potential to buy even more cutting-edge ships.[Official Report, 24 July 2018, Vol. 645, c. 8MC.]

For now, for reasons of national security, the shipbuilding strategy sets out that warships will be built and integrated in the UK via competition between UK shipyards. However, for the purposes of shipbuilding only, the national shipbuilding strategy defines warships as destroyers, frigates and aircraft carriers. All other naval ships, including the Royal Fleet Auxiliary ships, as well as other Royal Navy manned ships, such as patrol, mine countermeasures, hydrographic and amphibious ships, will be subject to open competition—that means international competition. That remains where the difference lies between us and the Opposition, but it is the cornerstone of our defence procurement policy. I remind the hon. Member for Llanelli that she talked repeatedly about value for the taxpayer, and it is important we understand that. I hope that there is a compromise whereby where we want to and can, we will utilise British shipbuilding capability, but when it comes in at twice the cost of an overseas opportunity, we will have to be very careful about which decision we make.

[Sir Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con)]

I may have misunderstood—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. The Minister will have to sit down.

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

Order. I don’t care what the Minister thinks he is doing; I am just telling him what he has to do.

[Sir Roger Gale]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker.

I may have misunderstood the Minister, and I know it is not the custom to ask a question to which one does not know the answer, but I think he said that royal naval ships were confined to aircraft carriers, frigates and destroyers. Would that not also apply to any replacement amphibious craft that we might need?[Official Report, 24 July 2018, Vol. 645, c. 8MC.]

Oral Answers to Questions

Roger Gale Excerpts

Monday 23rd October 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I see the Minister of State is enjoying the benefits of family encouragement. This is something that we enthusiastically welcome.

[Sir Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con)]

In welcoming my hon. Friend’s assurance that the future of our amphibious capability is under active and positive consideration, may I say, as one who has been privileged to spend a little bit of time on HMS Bulwark, that she is a magnificent fighting ship? She punches well above her weight. She has served this nation very well, and to remove her from service would be an absolute tragedy.

[Mark Lancaster]

I recognise my hon. Friend’s support, and indeed the support of colleagues from across the House who feel strongly on this matter. We enjoy an amphibious capability; of course, it is not just Albion and Bulwark. Albion is about to step up into the high-readiness role for the next five years and Bulwark will be going into the low-readiness role, but there are also the three Bay class ships and we will be investing in amphibious capability for the Queen Elizabeth class as well.

Armed Forces

Roger Gale Excerpts

Wednesday 19th July 2017 Westminster Hall

[Sir Roger Gale (in the Chair)]

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. I have a couple of housekeeping announcements before we kick off the debate. First, you may have noticed that the clock that we are working to is running about 40 seconds behind the annunciator clock. That will become relevant later when I put a time limit on speeches, because a lot of Members want to take part this afternoon. Secondly, in view of the climate, I am prepared to allow gentlemen to remove their jackets if they wish—but not their ties under this Chairman, thank you very much.

[Leo Docherty (Aldershot) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the future shape of the armed forces.

As the new Member for Aldershot, the traditional home of the British Army, I am honoured to lead the debate. In the limited time I have, I will touch on the nature of current threats and dwell for a little longer on my central point, which is that our people—our servicemen and women—must be at the heart of our defence policy.

When we consider the future shape of the armed forces, we are seeking to assess current threats but also to predict what threats may arise in the future. That is very difficult, and the only certainty we have is that threats are and will continue to be manifold and deeply alarming. After 15 years or so of engaging in counter-insurgency operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, we still face a threat from global terrorism, which is more dangerous, more mobile and more transnational than ever before. It has recently struck in our cities, and, indeed, at the very gates of Parliament. The middle east is highly unstable, ISIS is diminished but not defeated, we have failed states, we have Hezbollah, we have a dominant Iran and we have North Korea in nuclear stand-off with the rest of the world. We also have a resurgent Russia and the rise of cyber-conflicts.

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[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Sir Roger Gale (in the Chair)]

Order. Nine Members have submitted their names in advance to speak. I intend to call the Front-Bench spokespeople at 3.30 pm, so I am imposing a four-minute time limit on speeches. It may assist Members to know the batting order, so that they know where they stand: it will be Rachael Maskell, Robert Courts, Chris Evans, Jack Lopresti, Jim Shannon, Andrew Bowie, Luke Pollard, Eddie Hughes and—last but by no means least—Colonel Stewart. Those whose names have not been called will understand that they are not on the list. This is not an open invitation to make lengthy interventions; it is an indication that if they wish to intervene, they should keep it brief.

Reserve Forces

Roger Gale Excerpts

Tuesday 17th November 2015 Westminster Hall

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Sir Roger Gale (in the Chair)]

Order. Before we proceed, I have two things to say. First, I should have placed it on the record that the hon. Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon) has indicated to me that she has to be elsewhere in the House, as is sadly so often the case when we try to do two things at once. That is a matter of record, as is her presence. Secondly, I was asked earlier whether I would have to impose a time limit. At that time, I said no, but the hon. Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone) has been very generous in giving way; I imply no criticism whatever, but that does mean that we now face the need for a time limit. If hon. Members confine their remarks to seven minutes, we shall be able to accommodate all those seeking to speak.

Sgt Alexander Blackman (Marine A)

Roger Gale Excerpts

Wednesday 16th September 2015 Westminster Hall

[James Heappey]

I thank my hon. Friend.

The reality is that when someone is in a junior command position in an isolated patrol base, there is a responsibility on them to be unbreakable. They do not stint; they do not even take half a step backwards. They walk forwards because that is the only thing their men will follow.

To give junior commanders confidence and strength, and to watch out for their welfare, it is incumbent on those in the chain of command to get around, to visit, to watch, to take people to one side to see how they are and, if they do need a few days out of the line, to invent a reason to get them back down to Camp Bastion so that they can recuperate and get back to the line rejuvenated and with the moral strength they need to lead.

In Sangin, in 2009, my battlegroup was on the very front line—we were taking the highest casualties that had been taken in Afghanistan up until that point. However, I remember only too well that, when there was an incident in an isolated patrol base, the commanding officer and the regimental sergeant-major would be on the first available helicopter up there; if they could not get a helicopter, they would be on the back of the first available patrol. They had a responsibility to get to those patrol bases, not because they wanted to be seen by the riflemen, but because they knew that if the platoon commander and the platoon sergeant were doing everything they had been trained to do, they would be looking out for their soldiers, but nobody in that patrol base would be looking out for them.

And it went on. When an event shook our entire battlegroup, the brigade commander appeared on the first available helicopter from Lashkar Gah. The reason we were able to come back knowing that we had done right and that we had not once crossed the line was that there were people all the way up the chain of the command watching out for us to make sure that we remained strong and resupplied, but also that we were being looked after.

There is a lack of understanding and empathy about what we ask our troops to do, and there are people in this room who have experienced that in the raw. The reality is that operations in Afghanistan over the last five, six or seven years have not been about conventional firefights between two uniformed enemies who stand and shoot at each until one side gives up. This is about a callous, cowardly enemy who uses the cover of night to lay improvised explosive devices with no metal content whatever so that our metal detectors cannot find them. We then ask young men—18-year-olds—and their junior commanders, such as Sergeant Blackman, to step out into the dark of the Helmand night and to walk until somebody has their legs blown off.

That situation is truly extraordinary, yet when this man’s will was broken, when he had taken too much and when his chain of command had let him down, leaving him in the line to continue leading patrols when he had clearly seen too much, we allow him to come home, and we judge those extraordinary circumstances—the extraordinary danger he faced in that extraordinary place—in an ordinary court, with ordinary law, where people are intent on viewing what happened in an entirely ordinary way.

Helmand was a murderous place—a place where the enemy never had the courage to be seen. It was down to the Apaches, with their thermal imaging, to take out those IED crews overnight, because infantry soldiers would never see them by day. They were happy to sit in their compounds and to wait for the explosion, taking satisfaction from another life ruined. They would lay IEDs about 3 feet from the one they thought would get the first casualty. Why would they do that? Because they would then get the front two people on the stretcher party taking the first casualty to the helicopter landing site to get him away to Bastion. This is an enemy who did not play by the rules. This is an enemy that tried your physical and mental strength every single day.

Sergeant Blackman snapped—I believe that is what happened—because he was not looked after by his chain of command. When we brought him home, we tried him in an ordinary court, and we failed to recognise that that extraordinary man deserved the benefit of having those extraordinary circumstances taken into account.

[Sir Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con)]

I have huge respect for my hon. Friend, who has experienced things I have never experienced. He has said twice that this was an ordinary court, where the case was tried in an ordinary way, but it was not. This man was tried by a military court. As I understand it, it did not even reach a unanimous verdict. If it had been an ordinary court, where the case was tried in an ordinary way by twelve good men and true, I do not believe this man would ever have been found guilty. It was not an ordinary court; it was a rigged court.

Unmanned Aerial Vehicles

Roger Gale Excerpts

Tuesday 6th November 2012 Westminster Hall

[Rehman Chishti]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that key point about drones being used well. I have seen drone strikes in Pakistan, where Baitullah Mehsud, a known terrorist, was taken out, and drones of course have their uses. The other key element, however, is the huge number of civilians who are losing their lives. That undermines the work being done in Afghanistan, because the hearts and minds that we want to win are lost when we lose so many civilians. Of course drones should be used—absolutely—but there is also the issue of proportionality and of ensuring that drones are used with proper intelligence. I thank my hon. Friend for his expertise. The point I was making—I have touched on it previously—is that the use of drones fosters anti-west sentiments, which could be a danger to our security in this country.

My fourth question is, can the Government make clear whether the UK has shared locational intelligence with the United States, leading to drone strikes in Pakistan? Question No. 5 is, what is the Government’s policy on the circumstances in which intelligence may be lawfully transferred? Question No. 6 is, do the Government believe that there is an armed conflict in Pakistan? If not—this is question No. 7—do they accept that a UK national who carried out a targeted killing in Pakistan could, in principle, be liable under domestic criminal law? My question No. 8 is whether, in that case, the Government accept that if UK officials were to share intelligence with the CIA that they knew or believed would be used to assist in drone strikes they could, in principle, be liable under UK law.

I recently asked the Secretary of State in the House a question about locational intelligence and his reply raised more questions than it answered. He said:

“The United States operates in Afghanistan under a different basis of law from the one under which we operate.”—[Official Report, 22 October 2012; Vol. 551, c. 696.]

As I understand matters, there is only one basis for international law, so my next and ninth question to the Minister is, under what legal basis do the Government believe the United States to operate, and why is that so different from international law?

Drone use by the United States raises several legal questions. It has been argued that drone strikes in Pakistan have been carried out in violation of international humanitarian law. The high number of civilians killed in such attacks who were not participants in armed conflict raises questions about whether their use is proportionate. Christof Heyns, the UN special rapporteur on extra-judicial killings, has even suggested that some of the drone attacks may constitute war crimes. A recent report by Stanford university and New York university called “Living Under Drones” describes the strikes’ effect on cultural, religious and community life in Pakistan, where some families even refuse to send their children to school, in case they are attacked. The authors also detail the use of double tap strikes where the same area is attacked multiple times, deterring humanitarian assistance.

At a time when Pakistan faces severe poverty and one in four live on £1 a day or less, drone strikes threaten to undermine the work achieved through international aid. By 2015, Pakistan will become the UK’s largest recipient of aid. Yet that good will is threatened by such military activity. We need to ensure that Afghanistan and Pakistan are safe, secure countries but drone strikes can undermine the important battle to win hearts and minds. My tenth question to the Minister is whether drones are being used proportionately and whether enough is being done to protect civilians.

The issues that I have raised deserve serious consideration. If drones are to be more widely used, we must ensure that they are deployed so as not to create a risk of civilian deaths and collateral damage, or pose a risk to international relations or a danger to our national security. I urge the Minister to ensure that the United Kingdom’s policy on drones and sharing intelligence that may be used in drone strikes is fully compliant with the relevant national and international law. In answer to the interventions of the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and my hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney), I would say that if drones are used in accordance with our national law, and international law, I do not have a problem with that. However, there are concerns at the moment, linked to the issue of sharing intelligence with the United States, which may lead to attacks in Pakistan, about whether they are being used properly under national and international law.

Those are serious questions that need to be answered, and they damage the excellent work that this country does around the world, in rightly giving international aid and winning hearts and minds. The tragic London bombings of 2005 were linked to the border region of Afghanistan and Pakistan. We need a secure and prosperous Afghanistan and Pakistan, which may be linked to international security.

[Sir Roger Gale (in the Chair)]

Order. In half-hour Adjournment debates only the sponsoring Member may speak, unless others have the consent of that Member and the Minister. My understanding is that both Yasmin Qureshi and Nick Harvey have sought consent to do that, but the Chair deprecates the fact that a Minister is sometimes left without sufficient time to respond; so I should be grateful if hon. Members kept their contributions very brief.

Armed Forces Bill

Roger Gale Excerpts

Tuesday 14th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan)]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

[The Temporary Chair (Mr Roger Gale)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss Government amendments 14 and 15.

[Mr Robathan]

The new clause reflects the importance that the Government place on their reserve forces, and amendments 14 and 15 are concomitant with it. The new clause is designed to align more closely the circumstances in which reservists may be called out in the United Kingdom with those in which regular personnel may be used. It would enable reservists to be deployed in the UK more widely than at present so that their skills can be used in a wider range of circumstances.

Legislation has been in place for some time allowing our reserves to be called out to serve on warlike or humanitarian operations worldwide. Indeed, it is worth stressing that there have been more than 24,000 reservist mobilisations in support of operations both at home and overseas, including Iraq and Afghanistan, since 2003. I am sure that the Committee would wish to pay tribute to those reservists who have deployed on operations—with some losses, I fear. During those operations, 27 reservists have made the ultimate sacrifice.

In the UK, local reserve troops were mobilised under existing legislation to provide assistance during the Cumbrian flooding in November 2009, and helped to build Barker bridge—so-called after the tragic death of Police Constable Barker during some of the worst UK flooding in living memory. This assistance could not have been provided so quickly and efficiently without the excellent support of reserves from the local Territorial Army unit. However, we do not have legislation in place to allow us to use the numbers of reserves available or their specialist skills in all appropriate circumstances. The Secretary of State’s power to call out reservists in the UK is currently limited by the Reserve Forces Act 1996 to the defence of the realm or

“the alleviation of distress or the preservation of life and property in time of disaster or apprehended disaster.”

There are many circumstances falling short of “disaster or apprehended disaster” in which reserves could make a valuable contribution, but under the existing legislation, they cannot be mobilised. I have in mind a number of examples. The first is the foot and mouth outbreak of 2001, when we could not call out reservists because the work that needed to be done was not to alleviate distress or preserve life or property. The second is a major disruption to the road and rail network, such as we saw at the beginning of this year, when reservists could not be mobilised to deliver vital food and blood supplies to a large number of people over a wide area, and when we had to resort at the last minute to volunteers. The final example is a requirement for unarmed, low-level support to the security operation for the London 2012 Olympic games. Currently in such circumstances, it would be possible to use regular forces because there is a power to use regulars for urgent work of national importance. This power has been used for a wide range of activities, such as dealing with the consequences of flooding, heath fires, severe snow, hurricanes and the foot and mouth outbreak of 2001.

I propose to amend the 1996 Act so that reserve forces, like regular forces, can be called out for urgent work of national importance. The amendment represents an improvement to the existing position, where there is one test governing whether regulars can be used, and another slightly different test governing whether reserves can be mobilised. Being able to mobilise reserve forces would offer a number of important practical advantages. First, there are more than 30,000 committed individuals in the volunteer reserves. Secondly, reservists are based in every part of the UK and can bring to bear important local knowledge in relation to local problems. Thirdly, this would enable us to draw on a range of specialist skills held in the reserves that do not exist in the regular forces—for example, medical skills, meteorological expertise, and rail and maritime expertise. Over the last decade, we have seen the ever greater integration of the reserves into our force capability. The new clause is proposed in that developing context. The Future Reserves 2020 study, which will report to the Prime Minister this month, is taking a wider look at the role of the reserves and making better use of their specialist skills. I expect the study to recommend that we should make more of the strengths and skills that reservists offer. The new clause represents a first step towards that.

Mobilisation is an essential tool for two reasons. First, it gives the Department the guarantee of the reservists’ service; secondly, it activates statutory employment and financial assistance safeguards for reservists and their employers. These help to minimise any disruption that mobilisation may cause. Under the new clause, as now, no reservist will be out of pocket as a result of mobilisation, and every employer will have the right to apply for financial assistance that will allow him temporarily to replace any member of staff who is mobilised. In addition, existing restrictions on both the length of mobilised service that an individual can be required to undertake and the frequency of mobilisation will apply. Furthermore, reservists and their employers will be able to appeal against mobilisation under the proposed new power, just as they can under existing powers. There is also a further appeal to a tribunal that will be independent from the Ministry of Defence. In reality, the MOD works with employers to identify potential concerns at the earliest stage and support the employer throughout.

I hope that I have covered the major implications and benefits of the new clause. Let me stress that this change to the legislation strengthens the role of reservists in our armed forces and society more widely.

Government amendment 14 provides that the provisions in the Bill relating to the call-out of reserve forces will come into effect two months after it receives Royal Assent. That is the standard period of time for bringing provisions into force, and we see no need to deviate from the norm in this case. Government amendment 15 changes the long title of the Bill. The amendment is necessary because the new provision about the call-out of reserve forces is a subject that would not be covered by the long title as it stands.

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[Mr Llwyd]

I beg to move amendment 2, page 2, line 5, leave out ‘Secretary of State’ and insert

‘Minister for Former Armed Services Personnel’.

[The Temporary Chairman (Mr Roger Gale)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 16, page 2, leave out lines 8 to 12 and insert—

(a) education;

(b) accommodation;

(c) healthcare;

(d) mental healthcare;

(e) pensions and benefits;

(f) employment and training;

(g) support for reservists and their employers;

(h) the running of the Armed Forces Compensation Scheme;

(i) progress on Armed Forces rehabilitation services; and

(j) such other fields as the External Reference Group may determine.’.

Amendment 3, page 2, leave out line 11 and insert ‘including—

(a) the operation of section 359C (Former Armed Services Personnel Rights Charter),

(aa) the operation of section 359D (Former Armed Services Personnel Support Officers),

(ab) the operation of section 359E (Financial Support for Former Armed Services Personnel Welfare Groups),

(ac) the operation of section 359F (Former Armed Services Personnel Policy Forum),

(ad) the effect of the following issues upon service people—

(i) welfare benefits;

(ii) housing;

(iii) healthcare;

(iv) education, including educational courses and training;

(v) employment advice;

(vi) budgetary and life skills;

(vii) debt management;

(viii) alcohol and drug treatment;

(ix) relationship skills/domestic violence courses for perpetrators and victims; and’.

Amendment 17, page 2, line 11, after ‘housing’, insert—

‘(aa) in the operation of inquests’.

Government amendments 11, 12 and 13

Amendment 4, page 2, line 12, at end insert—

‘(2A) The report shall include expert recommendations on improving the welfare of former armed services personnel.

(2B) Expert recommendations shall include a timeframe in which these recommendations should be implemented.

(2C) If the Secretary of State will not implement any of the expert recommendations as directed then he shall lay a report before Parliament explaining why they have not been implemented, within 40 days of the laying of the armed forces covenant report.’.

New clause 2—Minister for Former Armed Services Personnel

‘After section 359A of Armed Forces Act 2006, insert—

“359B Minister for Former Armed Services Personnel

(1) A Minister shall be appointed within the Cabinet Office who shall be known as the Minister for Former Armed Services Personnel.

(2) The roles and responsibility of the Minister shall be set out by the Secretary of State for the Cabinet Office by order and shall include—

(a) Laying the Annual Armed Forces Covenant Report, in conjunction with the Secretary of State for Defence.

(b) Conducting such activities as shall be seen to be positive for the well-being of former armed services personnel.

(c) Conducting detailed and independently verifiable research to establish a baseline on which future progress can be measured.

(3) The Minister for Former Armed Services Personnel shall be appointed within three months of Royal Assent to the Armed Forces Act 2011.”.’.

New clause 3—Former Armed Services Personnel Rights Charter

‘After section 359B of Armed Forces Act 2006, insert—

“359C Former Armed Services Personnel Rights Charter

(1) A Former Armed Services Personnel Rights Charter shall be published, indicating the rights to assistance that former armed services personnel shall expect.

(2) The Former Armed Services Personnel Rights Charter shall be made by a Minister of the Crown by order made by statutory instrument and include—

(a) the requirement to undergo a psychological assessment immediately prior to leaving the armed forces,

(b) the requirement of a resettlement assessment, conducted approximately six months prior to the expected date of discharge,

(c) the requirement of access to advice from relevant voluntary organisations, approximately three to four months prior to the expected date of discharge, regarding the following possible needs—

(i) welfare;

(ii) housing;

(iii) educational course and training;

(iv) employment advice;

(v) budgetary and life skills;

(vi) debt management;

(vii) alcohol and drug treatment; and

(viii) relationship skills/domestic violence courses.

(d) the requirement of back up support and advice, provided in person, by telephone and other reasonable means, to all former armed services personnel at any point within the first six months following discharge,

(e) the requirement of tailored support for former armed services personnel in the criminal justice system,

(f) any other relevant assistance considered necessary by the Minister in pursuit of the improvements in former armed services personnel welfare.

(3) The Former Armed Services Personnel Rights Charter shall be published following consultation with relevant stakeholders.

(4) “Relevant stakeholders” includes members of veterans’ support agencies.

(5) The Former Armed Services Personnel Rights Charter shall be introduced within one year of Royal Assent to the Armed Forces Act 2011.

(6) The operation of the Former Armed Services Personnel Rights Charter shall be reported upon in the Armed Forces Covenant Report.”.’.

New clause 4—Former armed services personnel support officers

‘After section 359C of Armed Forces Act 2006, insert—

“359D Former Armed Services Personnel Support Officers

(1) A former armed services personnel support officer post shall be appointed in each prison and probation service in England and Wales.

(2) The role of the former armed services personnel support officer shall be to ensure continuation of support in the criminal justice system.

(3) Former armed services personnel support officers shall be appointed within one year of Royal Assent to the Armed Forces Act 2011.

(4) The operation of the former armed services personnel support officers shall be reported upon in the Armed Forces Covenant Report.”.’.

New clause 5—Financial support for former armed services personnel welfare groups

‘After section 359D of Armed Forces Act 2006, insert—

“359E Financial Support for Former Armed Services Personnel Welfare Groups

(1) Financial support shall be provided for former armed services personnel welfare groups in each financial year to provided assistance to former armed services personnel.

(2) Former armed services personnel welfare groups eligible for such financial support shall be those approved by the Minister.

(3) The criterion for such eligibility shall be published by the Minister following an independent scoping study into the needs of former armed services personnel and the services currently available which will provide a baseline for future progress.

(4) The independent scoping study shall be published not later than one year after the Royal Assent to the Armed Forces Act 2011.

(5) The operation of the Financial Support for Armed Services Personnel Welfare Groups shall be reported upon in the Armed Forces Covenant Report.”.’.

New clause 6—Former Armed Services Personnel Policy Forum

‘After section 359E of Armed Forces Act 2006, insert—

“359F Former Armed Services Personnel Policy Forum

(1) A Former Armed Services Personnel Policy Forum shall be created to ensure best practice in the treatment and discussion of veterans’ welfare issues.

(2) The Former Armed Services Personnel Policy Forum shall have membership comprising representatives of the statutory, private and voluntary sector.

(3) The chair and members of the Former Armed Services Personnel Policy forum shall be appointed by the Secretary of State following consultation with relevant stakeholders and shall include a government representative.

(4) The criterion for membership and responsibilities of the veterans’ policy forum shall be determined by the Secretary of State following consultation with relevant stakeholders.

(5) “Relevant stakeholders” shall include Ministers in devolved legislatures and veterans’ support agencies.

(6) The Former Armed Services Personnel Policy Forum shall report from time to time to the relevant authority.

(7) “Relevant authority” means Ministers responsible for the implementation of policies relating to veterans’ welfare, including Ministers in devolved administrations.

(8) The Former Armed Services Personnel Rights’ Policy Forum shall be introduced within one year of Royal Assent to the Armed Forces Act 2011.

(9) The operation of the Former Armed Services Personnel Policy Forum shall be reported upon in the Armed Forces Covenant Report.”.’.

New clause 13—Armed Forces Advocates

‘After section 359 of AFA 2006 insert—

“359B Armed Forces Advocates

(1) The existing network of Armed Forces Advocates will be extended through the nomination of supporting advocates at regional and local level to ensure that local authorities work together to identify and resolve issues in local policy or the delivery of services that may affect service people.

(2) In this section “Armed Forces Advocate” means public servant nominated to monitor and resolve policy or legislative issues that arise for service people.”.’.

New clause 14—Duties of ombudsmen and Covenant commitments

‘After section 359 of AFA 2006 insert—

“359C Duties of Ombudsmen and Covenant commitments

‘The Parliamentary and Local Government Ombudsmen shall have the duty to investigate complaints from service personnel that a public body or local authority has failed to meet the commitments outlined in the ‘The Armed Forces Covenant’ and ‘The Armed Forces Covenant: Today and Tomorrow’.”.’.

New clause 17—Duties of public bodies and Ministers

‘(1) In preparing policy, public bodies and Ministers must have regard to those matters to which the Secretary of State is to have regard in preparing an armed forces covenant report, under subsection (2A) of section 359A of AFA 2006.

(2) In preparing policy, public bodies and Ministers must consider whether the making of special provision for service people or particular descriptions of service people would be justified.’.

[Mr Llwyd]

I am pleased to be able to speak to the amendments, but also rather baffled by the fact that I was unable to raise my points earlier. Although I spoke on Second Reading and expressed a strong interest in being involved in the earlier Committee stage, I was unfortunately denied that opportunity. For the first time in the current Parliament, the number of Members dealing with a Bill in a Select Committee was reduced so that a representative of a minority party would not be present. I am sure that my disappointment is shared by my colleagues the hon. Members for South Antrim (Dr McCrea) and for Upper Bann (David Simpson). Be that as it may, however, I am very glad to have been given the opportunity to speak.

My amendments and new clauses focus on the need to strengthen the provision of welfare for veterans of the armed forces, an issue on which I have been campaigning in the House and outside for a number of years. They would establish a more robust structure of support for personnel leaving the forces, and would ensure that veterans were not disadvantaged in any way when trying to gain access to public services as a result of the service that they had given. They were heavily influenced by the recommendations made by the justice unions parliamentary group on veterans in the criminal justice system, of which I am chair. They also deal with the need to enshrine the military covenant in law, a move that I am glad to hear that the Government will be making in the coming months via the Bill. I hoped to see a little more detail about the covenant in the Government amendments, given that the devil is always in the detail, but the Government have at least acknowledged the need to uphold, maintain and develop further that all-important relationship between our armed forces and the public.

My amendments set out what we in the justice unions parliamentary group believe is a firm course of action to tackle the problems faced by vulnerable veterans, and it is my earnest hope that the Committee will give them due consideration. New clause 2 and amendment 2 seek to introduce a Minister for Former Armed Services Personnel, who would sit in the Cabinet Office and among whose responsibilities would be the laying of the armed forces report before Parliament each year. Most important, the Minister’s remit would extend across Departments, and he or she would therefore be ideally placed to tackle veterans’ issues, needs and priorities in an holistic way.

The Bill provides for the armed forces report to be laid by the Secretary of State for Defence. I mean to cause no offence whatsoever to the present Secretary of State in arguing that a Minister with such a wide remit cannot possibly hope to dedicate as much attention to that document as I believe it deserves, and that the report should therefore be written by someone whose sole ministerial responsibility lies with veterans’ welfare and who will not be unduly compromised—in the strict sense—by other vested interests.

Amendment 3 seeks to broaden the remit of the armed forces report, and is relevant to a number of new clauses to which I will return briefly later. Amendment 16, tabled by the hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire (Gemma Doyle), makes many of the same points. My recommendations were made before the earlier Committee stage, from which I was excluded, but I am glad that they can be raised in the Chamber now.

As Members will know, the Bill specifies that an armed forces covenant report shall be laid before Parliament each year, and shall cover the effects had by membership, or former membership, of the armed forces seen in the fields of health care, education, and housing. Let me make the genuine observation that that is a welcome step, given that the regulation of the services available to veterans is a prerequisite for improvement of those services. I believe that the proposed report’s remits do not go far enough, however. My amendments demand that they inquire in greater depth into how having a military service background affects personnel in obtaining public services. The report should not simply discuss education, housing and health care; I have specified that it should also cover other subjects, including welfare benefits, employment advice, budgetary and life skills, debt management, alcohol and drug treatment and relationship skills.

--- Later in debate ---

[Gemma Doyle]

I wish to move amendments 16 and 17—is that in order, Mr Gale?

[The Temporary Chair (Mr Roger Gale)]

Order. The hon. Lady may speak to any of the amendments that have been grouped. They will be moved, if they are moved, when they are reached at the appropriate point in the Bill, so it is simply a question of speaking to them now.

[Gemma Doyle]

Thank you for that clarification, Mr Gale. I will speak to amendments 16 and 17 and to new clauses 13, 14 and 17. As the Committee knows, the vast majority of debate and discussion on the Bill has been about clause 2 and specifically about the military covenant and how best to ensure that it is honoured. Our concern all along has been to ensure that the Government achieve what they have said they want to achieve by enshrining the covenant in law. At the heart of this debate is the overriding principle that no one should be disadvantaged because of their military service. Indeed, many service families have told me that they do not want special treatment—just fair treatment. I welcome the Government’s amendments as a step in the right direction on the military covenant, but the path to get them to this point has been far from graceful. It has been both tortuous and frustrating to watch Ministers deny what was in black and white on paper in front of them, but however they got here I am certainly glad that they have progressed.

We spent many hours debating the covenant in the Select Committee, with the Government arguing both that the unamended Bill enshrined the covenant in law and that it was not necessary to do so. I am not sure whether they have changed their minds on either or both of those points, but I welcome the change of heart none the less and I am pleased to confirm that we support the amendments in the name of the Minister for the Armed Forces although they are not as strong as we had hoped. They enshrine in law the principles of reporting to Parliament, but they are still a step away from fully enshrining the covenant in law. I suspect that Ministers have once again been thwarted by lawyers and civil servants.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Robathan]

Indeed there will be if I may intervene. Has the hon. Lady visited the headquarters of the MOD police in Suffolk?

[The Temporary Chair (Mr Roger Gale)]

Order. The Minister cannot question the hon. Lady because she does not have the Floor.

[Bob Russell]

This is a serious issue. To the best of my knowledge, the MOD police are an integral part of the wider military family. However, over the past 10 years the previous Government were determined, as I regret the coalition Government now appear to be, to reduce MOD police numbers to the point where I suspect at some future stage we will be told that they no longer have a purpose and can be done away with. All I can say is that where there were once 30 MOD police officers serving an exclusive Army estate in excess of 2,000 dwellings, there are now just three such officers. The expectation that Essex constabulary can suddenly conjure 27 police officers to fill that breach will not be met.

We now have a situation in which we have Army families and civilian families and the demarcation between policing is not clear. The lifestyle of civilians is not always compatible with the military ethos of the service families. I am trying to choose my words carefully. All I am saying is that the presence of MOD police officers brought a security and comfort to military families which has been lost at the same time as the ethos of a 100% Army estate has been dramatically reduced. I put it to the Minister that the Government need to look carefully at their proposals to reduce dramatically the number of MOD police officers. It will have little effect in Colchester because 27 police officers have already been got rid of and, with only three left, we do not have much further to go.

I welcome the armed forces covenant, previously known as the military covenant, and congratulate the Royal British Legion on all it has done. We should all be grateful to the legion. My only regret is that some people appear to be trying to turn it into a party political football.