European Union (Referendum) Bill

Robert Neill Excerpts

Friday 17th October 2014 Commons Chamber

[Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con)]

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

This Bill is about choice. It is about giving the British people a choice on something that is fundamental to our constitutional arrangements and fundamental to our future. It is a straightforward and simple Bill, because the proposition of choice and democratic fairness for our people is a simple one that everyone here should be able to grasp. It is not a Bill about the future of our relationship with the European Union, and it is not a Bill about whether we should, in the long term, stay or leave the European Union. As I say, it is about giving the people of this country a choice, which is no laughing matter. That choice is important because the future of our arrangements with our neighbours require legitimacy and consent. It is some 40 years since that consent was last sought. Much has changed since, and it is fair and reasonable for people to be given that choice again.

[Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on bringing this important Bill to the House. Does he agree that for my Harlow constituents and people across the country, this referendum Bill is all about trust? If we get this Bill through, the country will know that we mean business on the European Union and on an in/out referendum, just as people knew we meant business when we cut the EU budget, got out of the EU bail-out mechanism and vetoed an EU treaty?

[Robert Neill]

It is about trust—trust in this House and trust in our democratic institutions. It is also, I suggest, a time to put up or shut up. If there are people here who do not believe that the British people should be given that choice, now is the time for them to say so and to vote against the Bill.

[James Wharton (Stockton South) (Con)]

I commend my hon. Friend’s excellent Bill and look forward to its smooth passage through the House. Does he agree that it is not just about the trust we should show in the British people by letting them decide, but about restoring trust in this place? For too long, politicians of whatever colour have come here and talked about Europe, and refused to let Britain decide. This party and my hon. Friend’s Bill will do that: it is the right thing. I wish him every success. I hope we can make progress and get it through this time, having not been able to do so last time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Robert Neill]

I am immensely grateful to my hon. Friend for those comments and for the kindness and generosity he has shown to me. It is no accident that my Bill exactly replicates the Bill he took through this House in the last Session, which was frustrated elsewhere. I am doing that deliberately so that we can return to the issue and make sure that others here and elsewhere put up or shut up, which is how trust comes about.

Trust is critical. My hon. Friend the Member for Stockton South (James Wharton) and I have a further link to the EU. Both our constituencies were, at different times, represented by Harold Macmillan, the late Earl of Stockton, the person who, of course, initiated our negotiation with the European Union’s predecessor body. He described that negotiation as a

“purely economic and trading negotiation and not a political and foreign policy negotiation”.

The change to that provides yet another important reason why the British people need a fresh say.

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

I am puzzled by the hon. Gentleman’s assertion that this debate is not about our future relationship with the European Union. It seems to me that it certainly is. Does he accept what John Cridland said recently—that it is the settled view of British businesses that the EU

“remains fundamental to our economic future. Our membership supports jobs, drives growth and boosts our international competitiveness.”

Does the hon. Gentleman recognise that that is the settled view of British businesses on this point?

[Robert Neill]

No, I do not accept that proposition. What the issue is about is giving people a choice, 40 years on.

[Mr Lee Scott (Ilford North) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that those who do not wish to give the British public the vote they rightly deserve do not deserve to be honoured by the British public?

[Robert Neill]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I have no doubt that if there were those—either present today, or not present today—who were tempted, having not put up or shut up at today’s Second Reading, to use various Westminster village procedural games and devices to frustrate the giving of a say to the British people—[Interruption]—they would incur the opprobrium of their voters, and would do great damage—[Interruption.]

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. I want to hear the hon. Gentleman, but I cannot hear him for those who are either shouting him down or cheering him on. Whichever it be, I want to hear the hon. Gentleman.

--- Later in debate ---

[Robert Neill]

I did, I must confess, find a leaflet that was issued by the leader of the Liberal Democrats before the last election. It is headed “It’s time for a real referendum on Europe”, and it begins:

“It's been over thirty years since the British people last had a vote on Britain's membership of the European Union.”

It is a bit out of date, but it is a Liberal Democrat leaflet, so we should make all due allowance for that. It ends:

“But whether you agree with Europe or not, it is vital that you and the British people have a say in a real EU referendum.”

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Robert Neill]

I will give way in a moment, but let me make this point first. I actually agree with that last proposition. It is time that the British people had a say, and—I say this in response to the point made by the right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms)—my Bill is about giving the British people the mechanism that will enable them to have that say. It is not about the detail of what should or should not be in a negotiation; it is about providing a mechanism whereby the British people are guaranteed, in primary legislation, an opportunity to have their say.

[John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD)]

Will my hon. Friend give way, on that point?

[Robert Neill]

Out of courtesy, I will give way to the hon. Gentleman.

[John Hemming]

Although, as my hon. Friend will recognise, I did back the earlier Bill—[Interruption]—I must admit that I have not been present on every single occasion, and my hon. Friend should not necessarily read into my colleagues’ absence the nature of their views.

Does my hon. Friend agree that, given that the 1688 Bill of Rights, our fundamental constitutional law, was established by popular consent and not by being imposed on people, a substantial change to that, which is implied by the use of regulation rather than directive, is something that also requires popular consent?

[Robert Neill]

I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman. I would be the first to recognise his consistency on his point, and I am delighted to see him here.

At the end of the day—

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Robert Neill]

I will give way shortly, but I want to develop my point a little first, at least to the extent of being able to finish a sentence.

At the end of the day, government requires the consent of the people. That is the fundamental point that the hon. Gentleman has made. When there has been a step change in our relationship with the European Union, as there has been since those days of Harold Macmillan, it is right and proper to give the British people the chance to reflect and think again.

[Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on his Bill, and am proud to be a sponsor of it. He has mentioned Harold Macmillan. Harold Macmillan, of course, negotiated our membership of something called the European Economic Community, and that is what people voted on at the time. They thought that it was a trading arrangement, but it has morphed into the European Union, which has become a vehicle to create a United States of Europe, and that is what the people of Britain do not want.

[Robert Neill]

I agree with my hon. Friend. I voted in that 1975 referendum. I would like to say that I lied about my age in order to vote, but I did not. I had just started out as a young lawyer, and had just been elected a young councillor in Havering. I was at the beginning of my working life. Virtually the whole of some people’s working lives—virtually a whole generation—has gone by without anyone’s having had a say. The nature of the EU has indeed changed from that economic community—that

“purely economic and trading negotiation and not a political and foreign policy negotiation”,

as the late Lord Stockton described it—into an entirely different animal, altogether more complex and demanding in its relations with both this country and the rest of the world. That is why it is right for us to have the chance to engage in a sensible renegotiation and put the new offer that is available to the British people, so that they can decide.

[Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) (Lab)]

I appreciate that the hon. Gentleman does not accept the point made earlier by my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms), but does he not accept that the last thing business needs at this time is a prolonged period of uncertainty? Will he explain how his proposal will help to support and create jobs in the areas such as the north-east, and, indeed, throughout the United Kingdom?

[Robert Neill]

The greatest threat to British business would be the return to government of the hon. Lady’s party. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”] My constituency contains many business people and many people who work in the City. I would not always take the voices of the big battalions as being representative of the people who are running the firms out there in the country and the people who are on the trading floors of the City of London—the people who are bringing the wealth into this country. That is what really matters.

[Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on his Bill. His entire argument is predicated on putting trust in the great British people, and this party is willing to do that. Is it not telling that the Labour party could probably have turned up in a taxi this morning, given that so few of its members are present? Is it not obvious that they do not trust the British people to decide?

[Robert Neill]

It has been observed by wiser people than I that it is sometimes best not to try to fathom the unfathomable workings of providence, and the same applies to the mind of the Labour party.

It is precisely because of that step change that has taken place in our relationship with the European Union, which affects all aspects of our economic and social life, that the renewal of consent is required. My Bill has exactly the same format as that of my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton South: it proposes that the British people should be given a simple and straightforward choice in the form of an entirely comprehensible question. The one exception, which was accepted by my hon. Friend, is that my Bill includes the people of Gibraltar, because of Gibraltar’s particular status as an overseas territory which, effectively, is physically within the current European Union.

[Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con)]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Robert Neill]

I will give way to my fellow West Ham supporter first, in a spirit of fraternal generosity.

[Mike Gapes]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, and I look forward to both of us celebrating victory over Burnley tomorrow.

The hon. Gentleman referred to the question that would be put to the people. Will he explain why both this and last year’s Bill rejected the wording that was originally proposed by the Conservative party, and the wording that was agreed to and supported by the Electoral Commission, in favour of a different wording?

[Robert Neill]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right on all matters concerning football, and—with respect—absolutely wrong about pretty much everything else. [Laughter.]

This is a straightforward and comprehensible question: should Britain be a member of the European Union? I noted what was said by the Electoral Commission. I had great respect for the commission when I was the local government Minister—it was kind enough then to give me some very useful advice, which I do not think I took, on the exact working of the council tax referendum—and it has a legitimate point of view, but the House passed the wording of my hon. Friend’s Bill overwhelmingly during the last Session. The wording is very clear, and, indeed, is remarkably similar to the wording of the Scottish referendum, which was very successful in terms of being clear and comprehensible and attracting a record turnout. I would suggest that the argument for that type of wording, and for a straight yes/no decision, has been strengthened rather than weakened by the events that have taken place since the last Session.

[Sir Oliver Heald]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Robert Neill]

I would not forget my hon. and learned Friend.

[Sir Oliver Heald]

I strongly support my hon. Friend’s Bill. It is a straightforward, simple measure which involves a simple question. Is it not the demand of the people that there should be a referendum on this issue? If this place denies people their say, we shall be seen as remote and isolated. We shall be a class apart, and that is not what this place should be. We must listen to the people.

[Robert Neill]

Like my hon. and learned Friend, I was first elected to Parliament after a career at the bar—the legal bar—and a career in local government, at the coalface of dealing with people’s everyday problems, and one of the things that struck me was that the risk we all have to avoid is precisely becoming part of that village mentality. It is never something we seek to do when we arrive, but, almost institutionally, that can happen. If we believe in representative democracy—as I trust everybody in this Chamber does—then one of the great challenges is to make sure there is a reality in the discussions we have here and the way we approach our decisions and a trust in the people who send us here. We do not sit here possessed of some greater wisdom—to use the French, some trahison des clercs—that enables us to ignore the views of our voters, who make the wealth that pays for us and for all Government spending. My hon. and learned Friend is entirely right in that. Legitimacy requires connection, and sometimes a bit of humility on the part of elected representatives to say, “This is an issue so fundamental that it is a matter for the British people.”

We have given referendums in a number of cases, and they are now an established fact of our constitutional scene. My constituents have had a vote on whether they should have a Mayor of London and whether there should be a different form of voting system for electing this House—I am glad to say they came to the right decision on that—and it would be pretty bizarre if they were not able to have a vote on what powers should reside in this House as opposed to residing elsewhere. I suggest this is the most obvious case for a referendum one could imagine.

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the majority of Labour voters in the country want a referendum?

[Robert Neill]

The hon. Lady, whom I have known for many years as a fellow London MP, is infinitely better in touch with her voters than the leadership of her party. I have to say—and I do not mean any discourtesy here—that I am rather glad she is not part of the leadership of her party, because she would be a much greater threat to us than the current leadership is. She is absolutely right. What I find, representing a London constituency, is that people often forget that Londoners, who are part of a cosmopolitan, diverse and open city, none the less believe it is time for us to look again at our relationship with our European neighbours. The hon. Lady is absolutely right; her analysis is spot-on.

[Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree—he said this earlier—that many people say, “I might have voted for the EC, but I would not vote for this”? I think that people are entitled to say that they would like to have a vote again, because they may well have changed their opinions. They may not, but we should at least offer them the choice because what is now on the table is a very different animal.

[Robert Neill]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. When I voted previously, I had campaigned to stay in what was then the European Community. I think that many people who voted for membership then would say that the world is very different now, the consequences are very different, and the pressures that have been placed on British business and a raft of our institutions are entirely different, and it is fair and legitimate to ask again. The greatest danger to our long-term relationship with the EU and to long-term business investment would be if we were in a construct that did not preserve our fundamental interests—the fundamental interests of our businesses and, for example, of London as the great world financial pole—and that did not preserve our right to develop our trade links with developing markets in China, India and Brazil, areas where, interestingly, the EU has singularly failed, as yet, to establish proper free-trading agreements. If we did not have a situation recognising the particular circumstances of the UK—rather than pretending all is happy and well in the garden—that would damage long-term legitimacy and would damage business investment and confidence over the long term.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Robert Neill]

I will take a couple more interventions, but I will not be able to accommodate everybody wishing to intervene. I give way to the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex).

[Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)]

The hon. Gentleman spoke about the way he voted in the previous referendum. Judging from what he has just said to the hon. Member for St Albans (Mrs Main), is he now saying he would vote against the UK being a member of the EU were this referendum to happen?

[Robert Neill]

The hon. Gentleman was not listening to what I said. This is not about the outcome of the negotiations. The point I am making has been well echoed on the Conservative Benches: because the nature of the organisation and our relationship with it has changed, it is right that we look afresh and the British people have the opportunity to vote on that. That is why the Prime Minister is absolutely right to say—

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Robert Neill]

I am not going to take a vast number of further interventions, because if I do we will have a long, disjointed conversation, and other Members may wish to get in and make their own speeches.

I just wanted to make this point. If we do not recognise the reality of change on the ground, we lose credibility and we do not do any good. I am prepared to trust the Prime Minister to do his level best for the United Kingdom in the renegotiation. That is the place at which we address the details of what may have changed and what we need to take our relationship forward, but ultimately it is not, and should not be, the Prime Minister’s decision, my decision, or the House’s decision; it should ultimately be the decision of the British people.

[Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)]

My hon. Friend has spoken about how people may have changed their minds since the last referendum, but does he agree that there are literally tens of millions of Britons like myself who were too young to vote in 1975 and who have never been able to cast their vote on this issue?

[Robert Neill]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for reminding me of my advanced age; he has worn much better than I have in any event. He is entirely right: there is a whole raft of people out there, who may have raised families and who have to live with the consequences of where we currently are, and who have never had a say. That is ludicrous. I was talking to some of my step-nieces and nephews. They have got kids of their own now. They never had a chance to have a say. That is not sustainable. There are businesses and firms that are up and running now and are major components of the UK economy, yet their founders and the people who lead those companies never had a say. It is time to look afresh.

[Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)]

My hon. Friend is correctly reminding everyone that only the Conservatives are willing and able to deliver a referendum. May I bring him back to the central issue of choice? What does it say about the leadership of the Labour and Liberal parties that they are unwilling to trust the British electorate on this point of seminal importance?

[Robert Neill]

A lesson I have learned, not just from my time in this House but also from my professional and earlier political life, is that if we treat people with contempt, they will treat us with contempt, and that is the risk that the Opposition run with their attitude. That is why the playing of Westminster games brings this House into disrepute.

As this is a straightforward Bill which has been rehearsed before and debated by this House before, let me just say that I believe we need to restate that we do have faith in the British people and that we should give them, entrenched in law, a piece of primary legislation that says, “In 2017 there will be a referendum.”

[Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Robert Neill]

I am sorry, but I am not going to take any more interventions.

That is also why we should say to those who do not have the courage to stand up and say no today, “Don’t seek to frustrate this by devious procedural means, and instead see if you have the courage to go to the British electorate and say, ‘If by mishap or some fluke of mathematical calculation we come into government, we will take away from you this choice that this House has given you,’” because that is the logical position the Labour party has put itself in.

That is why it is important that this House passes this Bill today and sets in law the opportunity for the British people to have that choice, and that is why I commend the Bill to the House.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Timms]

Well, I want to defend the view set out by the leader of the hon. Lady’s party. On 5 January 2010 in Hammersmith, shortly before he became Prime Minister and when he was leading the efforts of her and her hon. and right hon. Friends to be elected in the general election. He said:

“Do I want an in/out referendum? No, I don’t, because I don’t think we should leave”.

I think he was absolutely right.

[Robert Neill]

I have not intervened before because I have made my speech and I do not want to take up time, but may I say gently to the right hon. Gentleman that the reason why everything has changed is that his Government welched upon signing up to the Lisbon treaty without having a referendum, and from that point on the bets were off and trust was destroyed? That is why we need the referendum now.

[Stephen Timms]

The hon. Gentleman may have missed the date of the comment I have just read out. It was 5 January 2010, when he and his hon. and right hon. Friends were campaigning for election. The leader of the Conservative party, at an event that was called “Cameron Direct”, which was an opportunity for voters to find out exactly what sort of person was seeking to be elected Prime Minister and to understand what made him tick, said:

“Do I want an in/out referendum? No, I don’t, because I don’t think we should leave.”

That was in January 2010, long after the debate about the Lisbon treaty, and I happen to agree with the view set out then by the current leader of the Conservative party, and one of the things we should be discussing in this debate is why the leader of the Conservative party has changed his position so dramatically.

The Scottish referendum has been referred to several times in this debate, and that is appropriate because there are some telling lessons for us to learn from it. That also illustrates how dramatically the Conservative party has changed in recent years. It was called the Conservative and Unionist party; I do not know if it is still called that, but that certainly was its name in the past, and it was a defender of the Union. It was absolutely clear in the Scottish referendum debate, however, that the only influence of the Conservative party was on the side of the yes campaign. I spent some time canvassing in Glasgow and a voter said to me, “Who wants to be part of a country where the next Prime Minister might be Boris Johnson?” One can understand that view. The Conservative party is no longer, in effect, a defender of the Union. Only my party is a national party; it is the only party that is able to stand successfully for election in every part of the United Kingdom. The Conservative party is no longer the defender of the Union.

Equally, the Conservative party is no longer the defender of the views of British business, and I personally regret that that is the case. The views of British businesses are extremely important in this debate, and we ignore them at our peril. When the Government were elected they said they would eradicate the deficit in this Parliament, but the Prime Minister acknowledged in the Chamber this week that the deficit has only been reduced by one third. We have seen the fall in markets around the world this week. The Chancellor himself has warned about the prospects for the recovery over the coming months. The chief economist of the Bank of England this morning has been pointing out that people in the UK on moderate incomes are continuing to see their incomes fall in real terms. The average wage is down over £1,600 per year in real terms since 2010. Surely that should be the central preoccupation for the Government elected next year. We should not have two years of paralysis, which is what would happen if we were to go down the road envisaged in the Bill. Surely the economic interest of the country should be the focus of our attention, and we need businesses to be successful in order for the deficit to be eradicated. This Government have fallen so far short of the goal they set out for doing that.

The views of British businesses are clear. In response to an intervention from me the hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill) was unwilling to accept that the view set out by the director-general of the CBI was the view of British businesses. If I heard him correctly, he said that we should be cautious about listening to the big battalions.

[Robert Neill]

Correct.

[Stephen Timms]

The hon. Gentleman has confirmed that that is his view and I imagine it is the view of most Government Members in the Chamber today. They feel that we should not be listening to the views of the CBI, but I believe we should. Its director general has said that the EU

“remains fundamental to our economic future”.

He continued:

“Our membership supports jobs, drives growth and boosts our international competitiveness.”

That should be a central concern for this House and for the Government elected next May.

I pay tribute to the right hon. Member for Ashford for a number of the points he made, and he drew attention also to the views of the Engineering Employers Federation. Its chief executive said just last month that

“manufacturers remain overwhelmingly of the view that our economic wellbeing is inextricably linked to the EU and we must stay in membership.”

In a poll of its members, it found that 85% of member companies indicated that they would like to stay in, rising to 90% of those with more than 250 employees.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con)]

If every single Opposition Member who spoke about the awfulness of this Bill does not reinforce that with their vote today, the public can conclude that they are prepared to let the unelected House at the other end of this Building do their dirty work for them. I have heard from them today nothing good about this small Bill, which simply reinforces the public’s ability to make up their own mind when they have heard all the arguments, whether from business or politicians. Therefore, if those Opposition Members who desperately oppose this Bill do not vote today, they will show the hypocrisy of the Opposition, who prefer to let the other end do their dirty work for them.

[Robert Neill]

claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36).

Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put.

Question agreed to.

Question put accordingly: That the Bill be now read a Second time.

The House divided: Ayes 283, Noes 0.