Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Eleventh sitting)

Rebecca Paul Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 12th February 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Danny Kruger]

If my right hon. Friend just wants a free and easy, free-flowing discussion that has no specific questions that need to be asked or answered, there should not be any requirement for them to be testing for coercion. There is already a requirement to ensure that there has been no coercion and that the person is making the decision voluntarily. That imposes an expectation that they would be asking a specific question to the applicant. Personally, I think it is appropriate to ask the applicant, “Have you been encouraged? Has influence been put upon you?” If the answer is, “No, it’s all fine; my wife agrees with me, but I have not been encouraged to it,” then the test is passed.

[Rebecca Paul (Reigate) (Con)]

rose—

[Jake Richards (Rother Valley) (Lab)]

rose—

[Danny Kruger]

I will give way first to my hon. Friend and then to the hon. Gentleman.

[Rebecca Paul]

I completely recognise what my hon. Friend says, but there is another way to deal with the issue. Encouragement is already illegal. The other option is that we decriminalise it through in clause 24, but right now the Bill does not do that. That is why we are saying that we need to have the word “encouraged” in clause 1. There are other ways to do it, but until someone tables an amendment to clause 24 to decriminalise encouragement —I do not think that anyone has—then amendment 82 is very logical, and brings together all the legislation in a coherent way.

[Danny Kruger]

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend.

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[Kim Leadbeater]

I will speak briefly because we have had a thorough discussion about these issues. I completely understand the sincere intention behind these amendments. It is clear from the fulsome discussion we have had that colleagues across the Committee agree that undue influence and manipulation should be covered by the Bill—as should all types of coercive behaviour. The question is, “How?” I feel reassured by comments from legal colleagues and the Minister that the language currently used in the Bill—“coercion” and “pressure”—covers these additional concepts, as those terms appear in existing criminal offences, and the statutory guidance from the Home Office in 2023 along with the Crown Prosecution Service legal guidance cover the broad range of coercive behaviours. It is up to hon. Members to decide whether to push these amendments to a vote. I am understanding of the intention and appreciative of the comprehensive debate that we have had.

[Rebecca Paul]

I thank all Members for their contributions. I echo the hon. Member for Spen Valley when I say that this is one particular case where we all agree on what should be happening functionally and practically. We have had some quite technical arguments today about the meanings and definitions of certain words and how they would apply. It has been a constructive and interesting debate. As a first-timer to a Bill Committee, it has been a great experience.

It is clear from the evidence received and the contributions from Members that subtle coercion is something we are all concerned about and recognise needs to be dealt with. We have heard powerful stories today and from witnesses in recent weeks, so it is incumbent on us to listen and take action. One of the points that resonated with me yesterday was that made by the hon. Member for Bradford West. I am now paraphrasing a little bit: essentially, she said that we are not legislating for a perfect world where everyone is treated equally; that our society is filled with inequality, and we must legislate for the reality, not for the rose-tinted version that we would all prefer. Coercion and undue influence does happen more commonly than we might think, and it is hard to detect. It is therefore vital that when we go through this Bill, we always have the most vulnerable at front of mind. It is not about when everything works perfectly, as intended, for the very small group of people who would benefit from the Bill, but what happens when it does not work, and the impact on a potentially bigger, more vulnerable group. That is the crux of our roles here today.

I thank the Minister for her very informative and helpful speech setting out the Government’s position on legalities of the various definitions. There will, however, be different legal opinions on this. I sought advice from former Attorney General Victoria Prentis KC, who takes a different view. I am very aware that when it comes to going through the courts, there will be different interpretations and views. I am not a lawyer, so I do not know which is right, but I do know that if I put this amendment on the face of the Bill, it is there and it is safer. That is where I am coming from on this. I reiterate that we do see these terms “coerced”, “pressured” and “unduly influenced” in various bits of legislation. Those words are chosen for specific reasons. It is important to note that.

On encouragement, I am going to talk again about the purpose of the amendment. Right now, under the Suicide Act, assisting someone to commit suicide is a crime, but encouraging someone to commit suicide is also a crime. Clause 24 of the Bill decriminalises the assistance piece to allow legalisation of assisted dying, but it does not decriminalise the encouragement piece. I have tabled amendment 82, because we need to address that. The clause is limited to the provision of assistance and does not include the encouragement of a person to end their own life.

I understand the concerns of my right hon. Friend the Member for North West Hampshire about how “encouragement” could be interpreted, which is a really good point. I also take the point that although it is referred to in the Suicide Act, there is no clear definition, so we are relying on case law. If we all came to this with a blank bit of paper, we might come up with different laws. However, we have laws that are already in place, and that is why I have tabled this amendment. The reality is that encouragement of suicide is a criminal activity right now, which is why we need to address it here.

On undue influence, the Minister set out that the amendment is not legally necessary. The hon. Members for Rother Valley and for Penistone and Stocksbridge gave interpretations of this point, but I gently point out that they contradicted each other, which shows how complicated the situation is. Different people will have different views. The hon. Member for Penistone and Stockbridge said that “undue influence” is a term in equity, and that it is not proper to have it as part of the criminal offence of coercion in clause 26, but the hon. Member for Rother Valley said that coercion in that provision does not include undue influence. Does that not show that the legal meaning of the Bill is unclear and would benefit from some clarification?



Amendment 23 on undue influence first appeared on the amendment paper on 21 January, almost three weeks ago. My understanding from those who were previously in government, including at the Ministry of Justice, is that when an MP tables an amendment that is legally unnecessary, the Government would seek to meet them, together with Government lawyers, to explain why the Government believe the amendment is legally unnecessary and to give them time to reflect. It is my understanding that, with respect to the amendment in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire (Sarah Bool), that was not done. She met the Bill’s promoter, the hon. Member for Spen Valley, on Monday, but they did not discuss the amendment on undue influence.

Similarly, my amendment 82 on encouragement appeared on the amendment paper on 4 February, over a week ago, and I have had no communication from either the Government or the Bill’s promoter about it. The first time I or my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire have heard that our amendments might be legally unnecessary or problematic is today. When formulating my amendment, I had the benefit of advice from former Attorney General Victoria Prentis KC, who has written a letter to The Times endorsing it; the Minister will appreciate that I would not want to withdraw my amendment without the benefit of further advice from her, so I will press it to a vote.

However, if there are any points of technical drafting relating to the amendment that the Government would like to deal with through tidying-up amendments, I would very much welcome that. What has come out of this conversation is that it is not straightforward or clear; there are some things that need to be thought through, including the interactions between clause 24 and clause 26 and the various definitions, so that we are being really clear. I am open to doing that in the most suitable and appropriate way.

[Danny Kruger]

I am interested in what my hon. Friend said about not having had conversations with the Government or the promoter about the details of these amendments. I could understand that if this was purely a private Member’s Bill, but the fact is that the Government clearly are involved; we have heard it said today very clearly that the Minister supports the text of the Bill as it stands. Is my hon. Friend aware whether the Government have directly fed into the drafting of the Bill or discussed with the Bill’s promoter the appropriate response to these amendments? Does she agree that, if so, it would have been appropriate, as she suggests, to have had conversations with her or the other hon. Members who are moving these amendments, in order to do what normally happens in the course of a Bill’s process and convey the Government’s position ahead of the debate so that, if it is appropriate for amendments to be withdrawn or for concessions to be made by the Government or the promoter to amend the Bill in due course, that could have happened—rather than hearing today for the first time that the Government object to these amendments? Does she agree that that would have been an appropriate process?

[Rebecca Paul]

I agree that that would have been helpful. We have spent many, many hours today debating these amendments, and having had advance notice would have allowed some reflection and appropriate advice to be taken. If, indeed, the Minister’s position is right, I could have looked at withdrawing the amendment or tabling a new one. However, I have not had time to do that, so I am in a situation where I have to follow the advice that I have had. I think, if the Minister is right, having this on the face of the Bill is potentially a little messy because we would be duplicating, but that is not a massive downside from my perspective, whereas the upside is that, if she is wrong and I and the advice that I have had are right, we would be ensuring a higher level of safeguarding in this Bill.

[Jake Richards]

The hon. Member said that my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge and I contradicted each other. I did not quite understand the logic of her argument; I do not deem that we contradicted ourselves one bit. I also want to push back on the point about process. Let us just step back: we have been debating for a number of hours some very sensible amendments, and that is exactly what this Committee is meant to do. I am new here, the hon. Member is new here, but it seems to me that it is exactly right. She has tabled an amendment, we have had good debates on all sides, and the Government Minister stood up and gave the Government’s view of the workability of the Bill and whether the amendment is necessary. Is that not what this process is meant to be doing?

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[Rebecca Paul]

I thank the hon. Member for that point. I mean no disrespect in identifying a contradiction. A lot of us have talked quite differently about different things today and I have found it a fascinating debate.

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[Kim Leadbeater]

I am not sure whether the hon. Member contacted me to meet—if she did, I am very sorry; I must have missed that message—but other members of the Committee and Members of the House have asked me to meet with them, and I have met with them and had discussions. If she contacted me asking to discuss her amendment, I apologise.

[Rebecca Paul]

I can confirm that I did not contact the promoter on this. My understanding is that if something is not legally coherent, it would normally be the Government who would contact the relevant MP to have that discussion and allow that reflection. That was the point I was trying to make; my apologies if I focused on the promoter more than I should have. I always enjoy meeting the promoter of this Bill.

[Dr Marie Tidball (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)]

I thank the hon. Lady for the work she has done today. As a fellow new Member who sat on the Employment Rights Bill Committee, I can tell her that we debated many amendments from both sides. Sometimes, they arrived from both sides on the day and we had to absorb them on the day.

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[Rebecca Paul]

I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention and very much agree that we have had a rich conversation. We have taken much away from it.

In closing, the amendments that I am pressing to the vote are about whether we think that someone who has been unduly influenced or illegally encouraged should be eligible to be assisted to die. I hope all Committee members can agree that that should not be the case and will support my amendments.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

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[Kim Leadbeater]

I, again, refer the hon. Gentleman to my previous points; we are oversimplifying a really complex conversation, which would take into account lots of different factors for each individual. That is all I will say on that point.

[Rebecca Paul]

It is really important that we are honest about what the Bill does. We are looking for a simple answer—yes or no. My hon. Friend the Member for East Wiltshire has very clearly set out the situation, and I know that the hon. Member for Spen Valley understands her Bill inside and out, so if she could give us a yes or no that would be really helpful.

[Kim Leadbeater]

Sorry, what was your question?

[Rebecca Paul]

It is the same question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for East Wiltshire: would someone be allowed to access assisted dying if it was clear that they had capacity and their reason for it was simply not to cost their relatives financial expense or be a burden. It is important to be honest about what the Bill does. Is the answer to that yes?

[Kim Leadbeater]

I am certainly not being dishonest, which is the hon. Lady’s implication. I refer back to the complexity of those conversations, and the fact that safeguards will need to be in place to check for coercion, dishonesty and pressure. Ultimately, it comes down to a question of autonomy, dignity and choice for patients, but they are not simple conversations. I think it would be very unusual if the conversation looked how she is describing.