Welfare Reform and Work Bill (Fourth sitting)

Priti Patel Excerpts

Tuesday 15th September 2015 Public Bill Committees

[Kate Green]

Twenty, my right hon. Friend says; I am too young to remember.

We would be happy for an incoming Labour Government to be held to account for full employment. It is an ambition that goes to the heart of my party; indeed, it is embedded in our name. This is an interesting amendment. I want the Minister to explain to the Committee why the Government want to put a sunset clause in the Bill. I very much look forward to the debate we are going to have.

[The Minister for Employment (Priti Patel)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Streeter, as we begin line-by-line scrutiny.

The Bill introduces a statutory duty to report on the progress towards full employment. It is the right moment, as we start our scrutiny, to debate full employment. I am pleased that the statutory duty to report on progress has been welcomed by both Opposition parties in the Committee. The clause extends to England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. All right hon. and hon. Members in the Committee will have heard in the run-up to the general election and in subsequent debates that the Government want everyone, regardless of where they live, to fulfil their ambitions relating to work if they can do so.

As the Government set out in our manifesto, we aspire for the country to be the best place in the world to start a business and we want to achieve the highest level of employment. Therefore, producing an annual report illustrating progress towards full employment across the UK demonstrates the Government’s clear and transparent intention to continue to commit to those aspirations. We want the UK to be the best place in the world to create a job, get a job, keep a job, have long-term, sustained employment and be helped to look for another job if one’s circumstances change. Over the next five years, we want to move from a low-wage, high-tax, high-welfare economy to a higher-wage, lower-tax, lower-welfare economy.

It is worth pausing to put this in context. The hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston mentioned a raft of measures, including employment programmes, that have enabled more people to be in work than previously. The labour market has improved since 2010. Employment is up at 31 million, and there have been steady increases. The employment rate is now 73.4%. We recognise that there is more to do; hence the commitment to full employment.

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[Priti Patel]

We are in constant discussions, quite rightly, on how we approach the implementation of the Smith commission recommendations through the Bill and so on. That dialogue is important, as is establishing good and sustained ways of working. The statutory duty to report on progress towards full employment extends across the whole United Kingdom, so it is right that the responsibility to report sits with the UK Parliament. It would therefore be inappropriate to lay reports in each of the other Parliaments and for the Secretary of State to attend various Committees in each of the devolved Administrations.

The clause is not about requiring the devolved Administrations to create new policies or take actions. Previous Governments have talked of achieving full employment, but this Government are the first to set out in legislation a clear commitment to report on progress made to achieving that aim. As it is a commitment made by this Government, it is right that we hesitate before binding the hands of future Governments to report on progress made towards that goal.

[Hannah Bardell]

I welcome the fact that the Minister is coming to Scotland. That is good news, but does she not recognise that, as the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston illustrated, it is very much down to individual Ministers whether they attend or not? A statutory obligation is extremely important, so that we can ensure consistency. I am glad that the Minister is attending but, unfortunately, we have a history of Ministers not willing to attend or co-operate. We talk about a respect agenda, and we feel that it is important to have a statutory obligation in legislation. The decisions made in Westminster on issues such as this affect people in the devolved Administrations, so it is only right and proper that the Government of the day report to the devolved Administrations on those issues.

[Priti Patel]

I thank the hon. Lady for her remarks. There is a clear commitment from this Government to work with the devolved Administrations, particularly with regard to the implementation of the Smith commission. Therefore it is not appropriate to put into legislation the statutory need for a Minister to respond and to come to meetings.

It is fair to say—certainly in my role, and regarding the Scotland Bill and the devolution of welfare—that there has been a clear and transparent way of working between the Department and the Scottish Administration. In particular, there has been support where support has been required and requested. That is a clear illustration of the mutual respect agenda and of how we are working together and supporting each other on the delivery of the Smith commission.

Full employment cannot be created by an Act of Parliament or by the Government alone. Achieving that objective depends on a range of factors, predominantly a strong economy and a strong partnership and working relationship with business, employers, communities and those that invest in skills, people and innovation. On that point, it is worth my reiterating that there was a clear manifesto commitment to achieve the aspiration of full employment and, particularly, to report on that over the lifetime of this Parliament. The Government are committed to doing that, so I urge the hon. Member for Livingston to withdraw the amendment.

[Neil Coyle (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (Lab)]

Governments bind their successors in a lot of different ways. For example, when the Work programme is renewed, in whatever form it takes, it is assumed that the programmes will run over into the next Parliament. Why, if the Government are burdening a future Government with the programmes that they have put in place, do they not consider the reporting that we are discussing to be less onerous on a future Government? It would also be quite useful in indicating where the next Government were on securing full employment.

[Priti Patel]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. This is a clear manifesto commitment that the Government outlined at the time of the general election, and we feel that we can work hard in this Parliament to achieve it. Of course, future Governments will address it and make their own commitments.

[Neil Coyle]

This is a bit of a cheeky intervention, but is the Minister saying either that she does not expect to be in the next Government or that the next Conservative manifesto will not include a commitment to full employment?

[Priti Patel]

I think the hon. Gentleman has missed the point of my remarks. This is about producing an annual report that outlines the progress made towards full employment, which we feel is appropriate in this Parliament. It is for future Governments to choose their approach to reporting. Our first annual report will set out how we will interpret full employment, which will be based on existing data sources for the UK and could include a variety of measures. We are looking to outline that.

[The Chair]

It now falls to the mover of the amendment to say a few words, if she wishes, in response to what the Minister has said, and then to inform the Committee whether she wishes to withdraw the amendment or put it to a Division.

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[Priti Patel]

I take the completely opposite view to the hon. Lady. Achieving full employment is a bold ambition, which I think all right hon. and hon. Members would support, and, quite frankly, it should be a great aspiration for our nation.

It is right that everyone who can work should work and it is worth touching on the fact that many of the welfare reforms not just in this Bill but in the previous Parliament have been put in place to support people to get closer to the labour market, into work and, in particular, to sustain long-term employment. It is right that everyone who can work should work and, through measures such as universal credit, we are ensuring that work always pays.

It is a mission of this one nation Government not just to help working people to achieve security and have a long and fulfilling career, but to support and assist them in getting closer to the labour market. That is exactly what the Department for Work and Pensions is doing through many of our employment programmes. If we look at the number of vacancies in the labour market, which stands at more than 700,000, and the fact that employment has been increasing—full-time employment is up since 2010—and youth unemployment has been going down, we see that more and more people are in work and sustained employment. That should be welcomed.

[Emily Thornberry]

Of course, to avoid the benefit cap, people have to work 16 hours a week. As I understand it, there is an incentive, therefore, for people to get into work for 16 hours a week. Might that give us an inkling about how the Government define full employment? To work less than that meant that someone was not fully employed, so there was a need for a benefit cap to give them the incentive to work 16 hours. Does that help with the definition of full employment?

[Priti Patel]

With regards to the benefit cap, I remind hon. Members about the fundamental principle behind why it was brought in: there was to be a maximum level to the amount of out-of-work benefit that the Government would pay to households. The cap is a simple matter of fairness to families who make difficult choices every day about going out to work, taking up employment, where they live and how they will support themselves.

It is exactly right that that principle applies to households in receipt of benefits so that there is a strong incentive to take up sustained work and reduce long-term welfare dependency. That is absolutely our focus through universal credit, and progress towards full employment means that the UK needs to be the best place in the world to create a job—[Interruption.]

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On resuming—

[Priti Patel]

We were about to discuss the progress towards full employment. As I said on the previous clause, the Government set out in our manifesto our aspirations for the UK to be the best place in the world to start a business and to achieve the highest level of employment in the G7. The right hon. Member for East Ham pointed out that landing on a single definition is difficult, as many definitions are used around the world. Our pursuit of full employment is important, because sustained economic growth depends on having a flexible work force. Some Opposition Members commented on changes to the labour market. The fact that our employment market has evolved benefits individuals and changes lives, which means that sustained employment gives people new opportunities. In addition to the overall benefit of driving down welfare spending, we are enabling people to aspire to live different lives and have sustained employment.

We now have one of the highest employment rates in the developed world and the second-lowest unemployment rate in the EU. We have already exceeded the full employment goal set out in the Europe 2020 strategy of securing a 75% employment rate for men and women aged 20 to 64 by 2020. As I said earlier, that was achieved by supporting people who require help and assistance in accessing the labour market.

[Stephen Timms]

To be clear, is the Minister saying that the aim for full employment is to achieve the highest employment rate in the G7? Is that what the aspiration means?

[Priti Patel]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that question. We set out in our manifesto our aspirations for the UK to be the best place in the world to start a business and, in particular, to achieve the highest level of employment in the G7. We are focusing on putting measures in place. It will not happen through one target or one measure; it is about having a combination of policies across Government.

[Stephen Timms]

The Minister has clarified the point. Just so it is absolutely clear, can she confirm that the report required in clause 1(1) will be about progress towards the highest rate of employment in the G7?

[Priti Patel]

The report, which, as clause 1 outlines, must be produced annually, is to illustrate progress towards full employment across the UK. It demonstrates the Government’s clear aspirations and ambition to achieve the highest level of employment in the G7.

[Emily Thornberry]

Will the Minister give way?

[Priti Patel]

I am going to carry on where I left off.

There are many ways to support full employment and sustain people in employment. I touched on our work across Government. The Department for Work and Pensions has a big network of 700 Jobcentre Plus offices and work coaches who work with claimants to prepare them to look for work.

[Neil Coyle]

Will the Minister give way?

[Priti Patel]

I will not. I am going to continue.

The Department for Work and Pensions provides sustained support ranging from skills training, referrals to apprenticeships, which we will discuss in later parts of the Bill, work experience, referrals to sector-based work academies, the Work programme, help to work for those who are long-term unemployed and various other schemes. That is all about working across Government in a holistic way to support our ambition to achieve full employment. Through the delivery of universal credit, we have the opportunity to support and engage people who are on low incomes and live in low-income households. We will help them progress into work and increase their earnings so they become more independent and self-sufficient. That also happens through engaging with our work coaches at jobcentres.

Interestingly, outside the evidence sessions, the Department is constantly engaging with businesses and external stakeholders. We will be trialling the effectiveness of providing more support to universal credit claimants who are in work but would like to do more and have more hours to work and more employment opportunities. It is also about providing a safety net for those who need it and how we continue to support those who need it. At the same time, this is about the whole principle of work, achieving full employment and, for those who have been trapped on welfare for a variety of reasons, how we can move them into work and long-term sustained employment. That has to be done by encouraging businesses to invest in creating a modern and highly skilled workforce. We are committed to achieving 3 million apprenticeship starts over the next five years and we will continue to increase the relevance of apprenticeships through employer-led apprenticeships reforms.

[Neil Coyle]

Will the Minister give way?

[Priti Patel]

I will give way shortly.

[Emily Thornberry]

Will the Minister give way to me too?

[Priti Patel]

If the hon. Lady is patient and lets me make my remarks, I will give way to her. Producing an annual report illustrating progress towards full employment across the UK demonstrates the Government’s clear intention and commitment to building a strong economy, working with businesses and ensuring that the labour market has opportunities for all, regardless of geography and where in the United Kingdom someone lives.

We will use the first annual report to set out the conceptual framework for full employment and the measures that will be used to monitor progress against that aim. We believe that the best route to full employment is through extending the opportunity to work, supporting people so that they are able to work and supporting them in accessing the labour market. I will give way and then I will come back to some points I made earlier.

[Emily Thornberry]

I am most terribly grateful to the Minister. Might she be able to assist us with an important point? There is a phrase that she has used many times, and many other Ministers use it too, but I have never really quite understood it and I wonder what the Government mean by it. What do the Government mean by “work”? Do they mean 20 minutes a week? Does that mean that someone works? The Minister also talks about sustained employment. Again, I would be grateful if she could give us a definition of that. I do not mind if she does not answer immediately if she needs some further guidance but I would like an answer.

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[Priti Patel]

When it comes to the principle of work, it is about having long-term employment opportunities. It is not about being based on hours. We all know that work has great value for individual health and wellbeing. The hon. Lady made points about quality jobs. There is no universal definition of quality jobs.

[Hannah Bardell]

Does the Minister therefore agree that our proposals to have a commission to find a reasonable definition of “decent work” is sensible so that we have a benchmark that we can all be proud of? Without that, it is clear that the Government will hide behind the very basic figures of 20 minutes’ or an hour’s work a week and mask the real issue.

[Priti Patel]

No, I do not agree with the hon. Lady. In addition to having work, being in a job and being in employment, it is about the quality of life that that job gives. That means different things to different people. For some, it could be about salaries but it is also about self-confidence, self-worth and self-esteem. It may be the opportunity to work for the first time if they have not had the opportunity to do so and have now had skills training, or for a variety of reasons.

We will consider what further analysis can be included in the annual report including how the level, distribution and composition of employment have evolved over time. We feel that that is a more transparent approach, rather than trying to summarise a varied and complex picture into a simple measure of a definition of job, work or job quality.

Since 2010, two thirds of the increase in employment has been across a range of sectors, in particular managerial, professional and associate professional occupations, which command greater salaries. The growth in employment has been dominated by full-time employment, accounting for nearly all of the annual rise in the number of people in work. There are a variety of factors, which we will consider through further analysis in the annual report so that we have a better picture, rather than just one measure. The UK has one of the lowest proportions of temporary workers in the EU. The proportion is less than half the EU average and is lower than that of Germany, France and Denmark. We are talking about employment and how we work across Government to achieve full employment, but we are also working with employers, schools and colleges. Employers communicate with Members of Parliament on a regular basis, and they all tell us that it is about individuals having a range of soft skills and how we work to support individuals in enhancing their skills, be they soft skills, technical skills or vocational skills. That particularly applies in the case of younger workers. My Department, as I have highlighted many times, is working across Government, not just with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills on apprenticeships but with the Department for Education, to focus on training and engaging young people in particular so that we can all work collectively to achieve the objective of full employment.

I urge the right hon. Member for East Ham to withdraw his amendment.

[Stephen Timms]

I am grateful to the Minister for her response, because at least we now have a definition. She is clearly saying that the Government’s definition of full employment is the highest rate of employment in the G7, and it is helpful to have that on the record. I do not think it is a very good definition of full employment. As I said in my earlier remarks, the highest rate of employment in the OECD, even if we miss out Iceland, which is perhaps an exceptional case, is that of Switzerland, at 80%. We ought to be aiming for better than 74%, which is currently the highest rate of employment in the G7—it is the rate of employment in Germany.

I will press amendment 1 to a vote, which I hope the Committee will support.

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[The Chair]

Thank you. That was the best speech in the debate so far.

[Priti Patel]

I welcome the debate and the points made by the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston, because this is an important area for discussion.

The amendment’s purpose is to require the annual report to Parliament to include progress on the measures that have been made towards halving the disability employment gap. To put that into context, as she touched on, the Government are absolutely committed to the ambition to halve the disability employment gap. It is a challenging one—there is no doubt about it, which is why I welcome her contribution—because it requires us all, in my view, to transform policy, practice and public attitudes, and the Government are committed to doing all that they can to ensure that disabled people who can and want to work are supported and able to move into work as well.

The hon. Lady will know—we have discussed this in previous debates—that there has been an increase of more than 200,000 in the number of disabled people in work in the last year. That is why it is important to bring together—again, I touched on this issue in the previous discussion—other aspects of Government to work together to achieve the objective in the right way, so that the right kind of support and provision can be made.

As progress against the disability employment gap commitment is, of course, a key factor in achieving the wider commitment of full employment, that is why we take the view that it is not necessary for progress on that commitment to be reported on in the annual report. We believe that that is consistent with the Government’s manifesto commitment, which we said was part of our objective to achieve full employment, in addition to the aim of halving the disability employment gap. We will be able to achieve full employment only by achieving progress towards halving the disability employment gap.

I will touch on some of the points that the hon. Lady mentioned, particularly with regard to support for groups and with regard to how we will do more to halve the disability employment gap. She will know there are a range of Government programmes and initiatives. She mentioned Access to Work. Indeed, we have extended Access to Work to provide more support to disabled people in pre-employment, through work experience and obviously through employment-based training, internships and traineeships.

The hon. Lady touched on the Work programme as well. With regard to both the Work programme and the Work Choice programme, we take the view that they are not directly comparable, but of course the contracts for both programmes will end in 2017 and we are already working with the providers to get a better understanding of how we can develop them, including the support that is required, and so we can invest in the right way. She mentioned payment models. We are having those discussions right now, and it is right and proper that we work with those providers. We have also launched a specialist employment support programme, which is an innovative new programme that again provides extensive specialist support to those disabled people who need help and support.

Those are just illustrative examples of the work that is taking place in this area. However, in relation to the amendment, I will just restate that we will be able to achieve full employment only by achieving progress towards halving the disability employment gap. The annual report will include an update on the Government’s progress in achieving that ambition. That is why in our view the amendment is unnecessary, and I therefore urge the hon. Members who tabled it to withdraw it.

[Kate Green]

I welcome what the Minister has said about recognising the importance of halving the disability employment gap, and what she has said about its being a prerequisite for achieving the ambition of full employment, which I think is right. However, it always drives purposeful and effective policy when the spotlight of reporting and monitoring is put into the public domain, and therefore I wish to divide the Committee on the amendment.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

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[Neil Coyle]

I rise to speak to amendment 102, which would require the Secretary of State to report on the number of people with special educational needs and disabilities and the number of people with education, health and care plans entering into apprenticeships.

Before I start, I want to make three quick points. First, I thank the Chair and Clerks for their help and advice so far. Secondly, I again commend, as I did in last week’s witness sessions, the very welcome target for narrowing the disability employment gap in this country. It really is brilliant that the Government have made that commitment. Thirdly, I am grateful, especially as a new Member of Parliament, for all the briefings and notes from organisations including the Federation of Small Businesses, Disability Rights UK, and especially Mencap and my own council, Southwark. I am still a councillor in Southwark, but I do not take an allowance as a councillor; I do not know whether I have in the past six months. If that needs declaring, there it is.

The disability employment statistics are shocking. Only about 48% of disabled people of working age, and fewer than 10% of people with learning disabilities, are in work. That figure falls to about 5% for people with mental health conditions, including schizophrenia. There is widespread acceptance that more needs to be done, which is why the Government target is so welcome. One route is, via this amendment and information on apprenticeships, to give disabled people the skills and experience that benefit longer-term employment.

We heard widespread concern from witnesses that the Work programme has not worked for disabled people—the success rate is only about 10%. Disabled people’s organisations suggested that that demonstrates a further need for the apprenticeship route to be better utilised, although they noted their concerns about income levels in evidence submitted to the Committee.

Last week we heard the British Chambers of Commerce raise concerns about simply applying the raw target. The headline 3 million must be broken down to ensure that it works for all and is effective. The Federation of Small Businesses provided me with a briefing—I hope that something went to other Committee members—which showed that 60% of small businesses took on an apprentice in the past two years. Its concern is that the new target will undermine the existing system. It estimates that about 400,000 new starts will be needed a year. That is a big jump, and I suggest that its concerns need assuaging. If the new target generates a revolving door of people re-entering different apprenticeships, it is less useful than an adequately prioritised target, which amendment 102 focuses on. I think that the witnesses accepted the need for a better focus on areas of work and groups of people who need more support and for geographical prioritisation. Amendment 102 goes some way to meet that concern.

The Minister mentioned, in voting down a previous amendment, that there would be some reporting on targets, which would be welcome. If there was a bit more detail on that, perhaps amendment 102 would be withdrawn. Accepting the suggestions of witnesses and prioritising the proposed target group would go down well with business, better meet needs and, I hope, avoid the fear and risk that a new target will undermine the quality of apprenticeships.

I want to touch on the existing scheme. The hon. Member for Cannock Chase mentioned the existing scheme and the target of 2 million. The Government have highlighted the fact that 2.3 million young people went into apprenticeships over the previous Parliament. They obviously plan to expand that number further, but the 2012 report “Creating an Inclusive Apprenticeship Offer”, commissioned by the Government and written by Peter Little OBE—no less—showed a worrying decline in the proportion of apprentices declaring a learning difficulty and/or disability overall.

Since 2007-08, the proportion of that group accessing apprenticeships fell from 11.5% to 9.1%, and the picture for people with moderate learning disabilities is even bleaker. In 2008-09, just 2.5% of apprentices declared a moderate learning difficulty. By 2012-13, that had fallen to 1%, which is of concern to Mencap, to which I am grateful for providing those statistics.

Although the total number of apprenticeships has risen in recent years, those with special educational needs and disabilities are being left behind and are already significantly disadvantaged in employment opportunities. Amendment 102 would help refocus attention and ensure, through the need to report, that opportunities are open to all in a way that helps the Government with that commendable broader target to reduce the rate of unemployment among disabled people.

We have had some discussion about context. There are significant concerns about what will happen to people in the employment support allowance work-related activity group. Some 248,000 people in that group have mental and behavioural disorders, as recorded by the Department for Work and Pensions. That figure includes many people with learning difficulties, who are the focus of Mencap’s concerns. Using an information system to ensure that apprenticeships are open to that group would be a bit more carrot if we are going to whack with a particularly nasty stick. There are many different reasons for the low level of reporting of disabled people on apprenticeships, including the demand for apprenticeship places, which, in turn, has led to higher entry requirements, excluding some disabled young people who, although perfectly capable of doing the job, do not have the academic qualifications needed. Amendment 102 would help to tackle that.

Disability organisations believe that better routes into apprenticeships for young people with special educational needs must be established. There is a need to increase the number of supported internships or traineeships that work well for people with learning disabilities. Reporting would also help, as the amendment suggests.

Disabled people face barriers in terms of the attitudes of employers and apprenticeship providers, and there is a lack of knowledge that support such as Access to Work is available for disabled apprenticeships. It has been disappointing to witness the decline in disability employment advisers over the past five years, which I mentioned and witnesses to the Committee, including Remploy’s spokesperson last week, referred to. Will the Minister provide clarification on the role of disability employment advisers and Access to Work when it comes to apprenticeships?

Does the Minister plan to reflect the concerns of the business community, demonstrated by the British Chambers of Commerce and other witnesses, about signposting and a one-stop shop for advice and support for businesses seeking to use the apprenticeship programme? The amendment could help to shape that approach as, without the information on reporting, it is difficult to deliver a system that gives businesses access to the information needed.

While many young disabled people with special educational needs can complete the on-the-job vocational part of the apprenticeship framework, they struggle with the English and maths assessment. Support and reasonable adjustments must be available for those apprentices and the level of qualification set at an appropriate level. I hope that the Government are able to demonstrate how the new plans will meet their Equality Act 2010 obligations to ensure that disabled people are not disadvantaged further. Reporting on the number of disabled people able to access the scheme would help towards that equity. It is incumbent on the Government to take the lead in ensuring that access to apprenticeships is as equitable as possible, as well as reporting on progress to boost the numbers of people with special educational needs and disabilities on the programme. Within that reporting target, it also seems prudent to report on the number of apprentices with the new education, health and care plans, which replaced statements in September last year.

Returning to the issue of businesses and to concerns expressed in writing and in the evidence sessions, reporting is crucial in ensuring the efficacy of the extended apprenticeships scheme. To include a requirement to report on the number of disabled people who receive support in the form of apprenticeships among the other reporting requirements might reassure businesses and disability organisations that the plans will not just result in low-quality, revolving door schemes that meet the number but not the longer-term goals of the Government, employers and disabled people. I look forward to the Minister’s response, and I thank the Committee for its consideration of the amendment.

[Priti Patel]

I commend and thank all hon. Members for their contributions. There is a lot to cover, but all the points are highly relevant. I will cut to the chase and go straight into the amendments.

First, I reassure the Committee that the first part of amendment 75 is unnecessary in view of the level of reporting that already takes place. My Government reports on almost half of the criteria as part of the Government’s quarterly first statistical release and will continue to do so as part of the annual reporting requirement set out in the Bill. Those statistics include a variety of figures broken down by region, age, gender, ethnicity, disability, level and sector. On breaking the figures down by qualification, we also publish information on the courses that apprentices are enrolled on in each academic year as part of the national aims report. The reporting process is there, and it is detailed.

The first part of amendment 102 is also not required, as the Secretary of State already reports on the number of people with learning difficulties and disabilities entering into apprenticeships. As for the amendment’s second requirement, the Government do not publish data on the number of people entering into apprenticeships with education, health and care plans. We are already helping to make apprenticeships more accessible for people with such plans by providing the full funding for apprenticeship training under existing frameworks to entitled 19 to 23-year-old care leavers. We will work with Barnardo’s to continue to ensure that apprenticeships are accessible for care leavers.

The second part of amendment 75 would require the Secretary of State to provide a report by the UK Commission for Employment and Skills on the quality of apprenticeships. That is unnecessary, as we are already committed to a range of measures to ensure the quality of apprenticeships. That has been subject to much discussion, not just in this Committee but in government, particularly with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, which is taking the lead. We have already ensured that all apprenticeships are real paid jobs, with a minimum duration of a year and minimum hours of employment. They have to include off-the-job training, which must include English and maths when those have not already been achieved. We are already working to ensure that the quality of apprenticeships is high and, importantly, continues to improve.

The best indicator of quality is that apprenticeships help people to progress into employment. Government data already show clearly that that is the case across the programme. On average, level 2 and level 3 apprenticeships increase earnings by 11% and 16% respectively. We have seen the significant returns that they bring to the economy. Latest research indicates that adult apprenticeships at level 2 and level 3 deliver £26 and £28 of economic benefit respectively for each pound that the Government invest.

I reassure the Committee that we can never stand still on this issue, and we are certainly not complacent. The Government have introduced a number of additional measures to ensure that apprenticeships offer the best opportunities to apprentices and the businesses that employ them. That includes giving employers the responsibility to develop new apprenticeship standards.

The right hon. Member for East Ham referred to some of the points that came out in the evidence sessions. Having a dialogue with employers is crucial, but they have to be responsible in helping us to develop the standards and the quality that ensure that their business and sector needs are met, while we focus on introducing rigorous assessment of end-point competence to ensure that apprentices can do the jobs that employers want. Ofsted and Ofqual will of course continue to play an essential role in the quality of apprenticeships. Ofqual will help to ensure that regulated qualifications meet the standard. Ofsted will inspect and report on the quality of apprenticeships, including observations in the workplace as part of the wider provider regime. We judge that the measures will give confidence that apprenticeships are high- quality jobs with training.

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I am conscious of time, and I know that some brilliant examples have already been given, but the Minister does not strike me as naturally timid. I hope that there is no timidity in approaching a target, because there is good practice among businesses that have demonstrated a commitment to delivering apprenticeship and employment opportunities to disabled people. I have examples. These are not DWP examples; they are real people and real names. Jane Forster, a disabled person, was taken on by Barclays, which a national programme that the Government could use and learn from.

[Priti Patel]

I have been there.

[Neil Coyle]

Brilliant. Well, there we are. It is nothing to be timid about. Jaguar Land Rover also has a scheme, which took on Daryl Jones. I am sure the Minister has heard of that scheme. IBM also has a fantastic scheme. I will not go through the specific examples, but those businesses are out there and have shown the way. I hope the Government learn from those business examples and deliver the measures in the amendment. Both the Federation of Small Businesses and the British Chambers of Commerce have indicated that they are willing to help in that regard. The amendment would drive that focus and help meet that target.

My final point is this. Crisis has provided an excellent briefing for members of the Committee. The youth obligation announced in the recent Budget requires young people aged 18 to 21 to apply for apprenticeships or traineeships, gain workplace skills or go on mandated work placements after six months. It is even more essential that apprenticeships are open to disabled people. Amendment 102 would support the Government in delivering the new requirement they are placing on young people.

[Priti Patel]

I apologise for my seated intervention, Mr Streeter.

[The Chair]

You are forgiven.

[Priti Patel]

It is fair to say that during this debate we have covered a wide range of points. However, I will bring our debate back to the amendments, which seek to impose targets on the Government for the number of apprenticeships taken up by people leaving care and by people with special education needs or disabilities.

On amendments 99 and 103, apprenticeships are real jobs with training. As is the case for all other jobs, employers make the final decision as to who they hire for any apprenticeships they have advertised. As apprenticeships are employer-led we are not able to ring-fence apprenticeships for particular groups, as that would mean we would require employers to hire particular people for vacancies. The 3 million target will provide more opportunities for everyone, including those leaving care and those with special educational needs or disabilities. In an earlier discussion I touched on some of the existing schemes, which we are of course extending. A lot of investment is going on in this area already. When we have more time I will be happy to elaborate on that and talk about the programmes, so as to share more information with the Committee. Much work is ongoing in the Department.

To respond to amendments 99 and 100, we already provide full funding for apprenticeship training under the existing frameworks for entitled 19 to 23-year-old care leavers. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley spoke with great passion. To answer her point, this is not about excluding people but about supporting them, especially those with challenging backgrounds. The circumstances she highlighted are poignant—she spoke about a real individual who, as she pointed out, is the same age as her and her peer, and who wants to work and to have the opportunity to progress. It is incumbent on the Government to support that individual to find the right routes and access so that she can get the support she is looking for.

The hon. Lady mentioned Barnardo’s, which I know has called for an additional target of 20,000 apprenticeships taken up by children or young people leaving care. We will work with Barnardo’s to continue to make apprenticeships accessible for care leavers. The hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark mentioned that responsibility for this area is not solely DWP’s but goes across Government. There is an apprenticeship advisory group that helps the Government to understand and address any apprenticeship issues connected to diversity and equality, so as to address barriers and make apprenticeships as inclusive as possible.

As for reporting, in a previous discussion I touched on the fact that a lot of the data are published as part of our quarterly statistical first release. We will continue to publish those data as part of the annual reporting requirement set out in the Bill. The Government want all apprenticeships to be as inclusive as possible. Thousands of disabled people have already benefited from apprenticeships. There are many schemes, such as the Disability Confident campaign, and Barclays, Marks and Spencer, Sainsbury’s and many other employers are doing great work in this space. As a Department, along with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, we are encouraging businesses to do more—that is part of our ongoing work and dialogue with them.

For a start, we want in this Parliament to build on the success of the work that has taken place with employers on apprenticeships. We judge that the measures in the Bill will give confidence that the Government are ensuring that apprenticeships are accessible to people of all backgrounds, including care leavers and those with special educational needs and disabilities. I urge the right hon. Member to withdraw the amendment.

[The Chair]

It is Ms Phillips’ amendment; she is not yet a right hon., but it will not be long.

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I know that the Minister will grasp the significance of these amendments, and I hope that she will also accept them.

[Priti Patel]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his contribution and for the focus on the troubled families programme, because it has been designed to turn around the lives of families with challenges. In fact, the first troubled families programme turned around the lives of more than 116,000 families. That is not to say that those hardest-to-help families’ complex needs and multiple problems can be resolved overnight.

Amendment 5 would require information to be included in the Secretary of State’s report on the number of households receiving support where a member of that household progresses into employment following a period of 12 months out of work prior to engagement with the troubled families programme. Getting parents and young people into work is at the heart of the troubled families programme. To reflect that, there are specific progress measures on continuous employment, as set out in the programme’s operating framework.

As with the original programme, we expect the majority of families in the new troubled families programme to be claiming out-of-work benefits. Due to the complexity of the problems they face, they will also be a long way from the labour market. We know that getting a parent into work can have a transformative effect on the whole family. Any Committee member who has any engagement with constituents who have been involved in the programme will recognise the impact on families of the measures and interventions, which can really be transformative. That is what such programmes are about.

In recognition of that, the programme aims to support families with a multitude of problems where adult family members are currently out of work, irrespective of the length of time they have been unemployed. Information on how the programme has supported adults into employment is therefore already an important part of the troubled families programme’s independent national evaluation, which will be the basis of the Secretary of State’s annual report to Parliament.

On amendment 4, clause 3 provides that, at the start of each financial year, the Secretary of State shall issue a notice “specifying the matters” by reference to which progress will be measured and reported on in the following financial year. The amendment would place employment as a progress measure into statute. We have purposely not set out a progress measure for the programme within the clause, so as to ensure that the programme remains flexible enough to respond to families’ emerging needs and to reflect future Government priorities. The right hon. Member for East Ham mentioned that the programmes are varied geographically, and in respect of the local authorities involved and the multi-agency work that is taking place. Ensuring that the programme can remain flexible to respond to the needs of those families is therefore vital.

[Stephen Timms]

The Minister emphasised that getting people into employment is at the heart—I think those were her words—of the troubled families programme. I welcome her assurance, but that should surely then always be in the criteria against which the programme is assessed.

[Priti Patel]

The full employment measure, which we have discussed, is outlined in an annual report. This is about the troubled families programme, which already has an independent national evaluation. That will be the basis of the Secretary of State’s annual report to Parliament. We take the view that we are already reporting on those measures. Different information that can be used to measure progress may, of course, become available during the lifetime of the programme. The annual notice issued by the Secretary of State will accommodate that information and will be based on the operating framework for the programme.

The current financial framework includes progress measures for employment, and therefore the first report to Parliament will include information on the number of adults in families supported by the programme who have moved into continuous employment. We believe that that is covered and that the amendments are therefore not necessary, so I urge the right hon. Gentleman to withdraw them.

[Stephen Timms]

I am glad that the point will be covered in the first report, but I am rather puzzled as to why the Minister is not willing to say that it should be covered in all reports, given the centrality of employment to the goals of the programme. Nevertheless, I am grateful for her response and will not press the amendment to a vote. I hope that, in practice, we will find employment featuring prominently in each of those reports in each of the years they appear.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

[Stephen Timms]

I beg to move amendment 6, in clause 3, page 3, line 6, at end insert—

‘(4A) A report prepared under this section must include information about the total value of expenditure directed at supporting relevant households by—

(a) local government,

(b) central government, and

(c) government agencies.”

To require the report on support for troubled households to specify how much has been spent to support targeted households by different parts of government.

I will not take up much of the Committee’s time on amendment 6, but there is one other set of data that we need to make a full evaluation of this programme: how much is being spent on it? As I understand it, the central Government allocation is £4,000 per participating family but, of course, other resources are also being allocated to those families. In particular, many local authorities, because it makes such a big difference to them if the families can be set on a new and positive path, are supplementing the resources provided by central Government, and other agencies are also contributing. We need to know the total value of spending on those households by the relevant agencies, and amendment 6 simply requires the report produced under clause 3 to include that vital piece of information.

The Government say that the 120,000 or so troubled families in the current programme cost the state £9 billion a year. Ideally, we would like to have a set of figures that add up at the beginning to £9 billion being spent on those families but that then fall as the programme starts to take effect. The announcement last March, on which the Full Fact website was rather sceptical, claimed that £1.2 billion had been saved as a result of the programme but, to secure a robust evaluation of the programme and to grasp the impact of those families on the Exchequer and the effect of the programme, there is no alternative to compiling the figures required by amendment 6, which would hopefully decline year on year if the programme is having the impact that we all want.

This is my final point, Mr Streeter, because I have a shrewd suspicion that you may not call a stand part debate on the clause today. The Local Government Association has made the point to us that, to minimise additional work in producing the report required by clause 3, data contained in the report must, so far as is practicable, be derived from any relevant official statistics, the national impact study and family progress data. What is the Minister’s response to that specific proposal?

[Priti Patel]

Again, I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his comments. Obviously, the troubled families programme is focused on better outcomes through the more efficient use of resources. It is therefore right that the primary focus of the report to Parliament is on the outcomes for those families.

Local authorities have been given the freedom to shape their own local programmes with their own local public service partners. In exchange, the Government have asked local authorities to provide information that will enable us to assess the impact of those programmes, which of course includes an understanding of what is being spent on families and the savings being achieved across local public services. That information on costs is part of the troubled families programme’s independent national evaluation, which I have touched on and which will also be published as the basis of the Secretary of State’s report. Information on Government spend on the programme is published annually in the Department for Communities and Local Government accounts. On that basis, it is not necessary to expand the scope of the duty.

There are a couple of points on the £9 billion estimate, which was based on the best information available at the time for the purpose of designing the original troubled families programme. The figure was the result of an analysis of a range of spending on troubled families by central Government Departments. The right hon. Gentleman also mentioned the £1.2 billion figure and the Full Fact website. That figure comes from a report published during the previous Parliament, and it is simply an indicative figure that suggests what potential savings could be made if average savings were replicated across local authorities.

It is fair to say that, because the information on costs identified in the independent national evaluation of the troubled families programme is already published, and will continue to be published—there is a line in the DCLG accounts, too—we do not believe we need to expand the scope of the duty. I therefore urge the right hon. Gentleman to withdraw his amendment.

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[Stephen Timms]

In my earlier remarks I raised a question for the Minister about the request from the Local Government Association that information should be taken from existing sources where possible to minimise the amount of work. Is she in a position to comment on that, or perhaps will she drop me a line?

[Priti Patel]

I cannot comment at this stage, but I will be very happy to take that offline and drop the right hon. Gentleman a line.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 3 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(Guy Opperman.)