Conversion Practices (Prohibition) Bill

Peter Gibson Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 1st March 2024 Commons Chamber

[Peter Gibson (Darlington) (Con)]

It is a genuine pleasure to speak in the debate. Along with many other Members, I have been seeking to secure the protections that the Bill affords for quite some time.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Lloyd Russell-Moyle) on his success in the ballot, and on choosing to present such an important Bill. As the back page shows, it is supported by nine other Members, all of them Conservative. The hon. Member is not normally known for his calm and measured manner, but I have to say that in his work on the Bill he has operated with good grace, and I commend him for his patience and his efforts.

It is a matter of regret that despite numerous promises of legislation from the Government for some years, it has fallen to a private Member’s Bill to introduce it. Nevertheless, we are at long last having a debate on the Floor of the House on drafted and published legislation. Both main parties in the House can point to positive measures taken over many decades to bring about equality, dignity and protection for LGBT people, including decriminalisation, equal age of consent, civil partnerships, equal marriage, and the lifting of the ban in the military. I am proud to be a Member of Parliament who, as an out gay man, stands up for all in our LGBT community, using my position in this place to stand up for people not because I am one of them, but because they deserve our voice, every single one of them: the L, the G, the B and the T.

Having taken the time to read the reports of debates from those important milestones on the march to where we are now, I am struck by the voices calling for change. There were those who opposed them, but time marched on and progress was made. I hope and trust that we can make real progress today, and whether Members agree wholeheartedly with every word of the Bill, or think that it goes too far or not far enough, let us get it to Committee.

I recently visited Ghana as part of a delegation from Parliament to the Commonwealth Parliamentary Conference, and had the opportunity to discuss the legislation that that country was planning to approve, which shockingly offered conversion therapy as a means of evading jail for homosexuality. The fact that that legislation has now been passed in Ghana, and embraces that which we are seeking to ban today, tells us all that we need to know.

In preparing for this debate, I was told of the story of a 13-year-old boy who knew he was gay but, because of the views of those around him, felt guilt and shame. He was subjected to shaking and incantations prayed over him for the demons of homosexuality to leave his body, and was encouraged to return regularly until he was cured of his homosexual desires. He was naturally shaken by that experience, and suffered the scars for many years. Thankfully, he did not go back. That young man now works as my parliamentary assistant, and is happy and content in who he is.

That small story is just one of many that have been shared in recent years as the debate about this ban has unfolded. There are some who do not believe that this abuse—it is abuse—exists. This House has enacted many pieces of legislation to offer protections from harms that we ourselves may not have experienced, but we in this place have a duty to provide protections for those who require them. Indeed, just this morning we prayed to God to lay aside our prejudices and seek to improve the condition of all mankind, as we do every day. If protecting people we do not know and will never meet from harms that we have never experienced is not living up to that noble ambition, I do not know what is.

I have spoken in debates on this issue multiple times and have asked questions many times, and I have been proud to do so. Many other Conservative Members have done so as well, consistently and passionately, and I am pleased that a number of them are here today to support the Bill.

[Hannah Bardell (Livingston) (SNP)]

Will my hon. Friend join me in congratulating the activist and musician Vicky Beeching on the book that she wrote about her experiences of conversion therapy, “Undivided”? I encourage him and everybody else in the House to read that book, because it is the experiences of people such as Vicky that are exactly why we are here today, to prevent further damage of the kind that has been done to those people. At the end of the day, government in its very nature is supposed to be behind the notion of first doing no harm, and harm is being done to our citizens. Does my hon. Friend agree that it is absolutely crucial that the Bill passes Second Reading today?

[Peter Gibson]

It is absolutely crucial, and I am grateful to the hon. Lady—dare I call her my hon. Friend—who accompanied me on that trip to Ghana and heard those harrowing stories from members of the LGBT community. We stand for some things in this place, and today is an opportunity for us to progress further.

The freedom and liberty to be whoever a person is, is at the core of my beliefs. No one, whether they wear a white coat or a religious cloak, should be able to attempt to change who that person is. It does not work, it never has and it never will, so let us ensure that we send a clear message from this Parliament. I am proud to support the Bill, and I give it my full support.

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[Maria Caulfield]

My right hon. Friend makes a valid point. Some of the fears are about the unintended consequences of this legislation, and I am sure that amendments to the Bill would allay some of those fears. As it stands, although the hon. Member for Brighton, Kemptown has made tremendous efforts to address some of the issues, the level of care and attention required to legislate responsibly means that we need to look at the subject from a wider perspective.

[Peter Gibson]

We have had so many promises from the Government about bringing this legislation forward—it has appeared in two Queen’s Speeches. We were promised the legislation in January 2023, but it is now 1 March 2024. If the Government want the House to debate their legislation, will the Minister publish it so that we can discuss it?

[Maria Caulfield]

My hon. Friend is right. I have not spoken from the Dispatch Box before about this particular subject, but my colleagues the Minister for Equalities and the Minister for Women and Equalities have been focused on trying to overcome some of the concerns raised today that could stop any legislation, whether it is this Bill or the Government’s Bill, getting through both Houses. Time has been taken to address those concerns so that we can come together to legislate against conversion practices.

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[Suella Braverman]

The hon. Gentleman puts that incredibly well. It reminds me of Edmund Burke, who said:

“Bad laws are the worst sort of tyranny.”

Bad laws make bad customs, and in this place we want to avoid good people making bad laws. I am afraid that the coverage by the legislation of all sorts of horrendous behaviour that is being talked about means that there is no good reason for it. It is a bad law.

[Peter Gibson]

I hear what my right hon. and learned Friend says about existing legislation covering many of the things that this Bill is seeking to protect people from. Will she outline to the House what work she did, while at the Home Office, to ensure that sufficient provision, advice and guidance was given to the Crown Prosecution Service and to police forces to ensure that they had the requisite knowledge to deal with such issues under the existing law?

[Suella Braverman]

During my time as Home Secretary, we issued new guidance on non-hate crime incidents, and it supports many aspects of what we are talking about—not all, but some. We clarified the parameters for such non-hate crime incidents to protect minority groups, to protect the LGBT community, and to ensure that fairness and safety were applied by policing.

The next reason is that the scope of the Bill is incredibly wide, as the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath said. The Bill does not require the defendant to intend any harm to be caused in order for their action to be criminal, which I find incredibly concerning. That will capture so many types of behaviour where there is an innocent or well-intentioned objective and where legitimate practices, whether in the religious, therapeutic or teaching field—or just being a regular parent—will be caught. That might be inadvertent, as we have discussed today, but some things will necessarily be caught by interpretations of some of the clauses.

Conversion Practices

Peter Gibson Excerpts

Wednesday 6th December 2023 Westminster Hall

[Peter Gibson (Darlington) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under you chairmanship, Ms Fovargue. I congratulate the hon. Member for Bury South (Christian Wakeford) on leading today’s debate. I thank him particularly for sharing the deeply moving stories of Sienna and Ben. I also want to thank the 213 people from Darlington who signed the petition to ensure that trans people are protected under any ban, and the 325 residents of Darlington who signed the e-petition to ensure that LGBT conversion therapy is made illegal.

I cannot believe that we are still having a debate about this. It has been announced in two previous Queen’s Speeches. It has been relentlessly pursued by a team of dedicated Members on this side of the House, including, most notably, my hon. Friends the Members for Rutland and Melton (Alicia Kearns) and for Carshalton and Wallington (Elliot Colburn). It has been raised in dozens of written parliamentary questions, and it has been raised many, many times in the Chamber. Indeed, it has been promised by countless Ministers at the Dispatch Box.

I know that the Minister is a good man. Indeed, he was described as an angel in a debate just last week. I know his personal intentions on this matter, and I know a good number of other Ministers who also want to see this policy delivered. The role of any Government is to protect their citizens, and Conservative Governments have a great track record: the Children Act 1989, the Protection from Harassment Act 1997, the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, the Modern Slavery Act 2015, the Serious Crime Act 2015, the Stalking Protection Act 2019 and the Domestic Abuse Act 2021. To my mind, banning conversion practice abuse falls firmly within the remit of those Acts by protecting our citizens.

Our country has made significant progress in many respects on LGBT rights, but with rights come responsibilities, and we cannot be said to be in favour of equal rights if we are giving rights without balancing them with the responsibilities of protection. I have spoken on this issue many times in this place, yet despite the support right across the House for banning this dreadful practice, there has sadly been no progress. There is an argument that this abuse is already covered by the Offences Against the Person Act 1861, but there is no guidance for the police and the Crown Prosecution Service. Will the Minister please look into that?

There are jurisdictions around the world that have made progress on a ban, so I ask the Minister: what is so difficult? Why can we not make progress? Why is the UK so unique that we cannot do this? The Minister will say that it is difficult and complex, and that the Government are looking at it, but I encourage him to stop looking and, please, start doing.

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[Anneliese Dodds]

I am grateful to the hon. Member, but I will not take any more interventions—I am conscious that there are others who need to speak. The point about surgical and medical interventions is precisely what the Cass review has been working on. I will come to the issue of precisely how a Bill would be drafted, so the hon. Member will hear my comments on that in a moment.

However, I need to ask the Minister another question. Last summer, I wondered whether we would back here in another year asking exactly the same questions. Well, here we are, asking the same questions and, I suspect, getting exactly the same answers, going round in circles. I feel sorry for the Minister; I know that his hands are tied. The hon. Member for Darlington (Peter Gibson) was spot on in that regard, although perhaps even this Minister would not be able to live up to his celestial claims. Surely the Minister is getting fed up with making excuses for his colleagues, who do not have the courage to tell LGBT+ people that banning these abusive practices is not a priority for the Conservative Government.

We have a different approach; we acknowledge that there are complexities.

[Peter Gibson]

Will the shadow Minister give way?

[Anneliese Dodds]

I will push on to give others time. There are complexities but it is our job to protect the public from harm. Labour, like the BMA, the Royal College of Psychiatrists and countless other organisations, believes that conversion practices constitute abuse. We are clear that a Bill to ban those practices must, of course, be carefully and sensitively drafted, so that it does not cover psychological support and treatment, non-directive counselling or the pastoral relationship between teachers and pupils, or religious leaders and worshippers.

My hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall (Florence Eshalomi) set out clearly that those practices are not a part of religious worship. She provided a clear answer to the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), who always puts his points respectfully. These are matters that legislators can work through sensibly, and I am confident we will do so.

A ban would not cover quiet conversations and friendships, contrary to the claims of the right hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Sir John Hayes). A ban would not cover discussions within families, which are based on the need for love and support. A ban would not—and must not—have an impact on the provision of psychological, medical and supportive services for children and young people. As I said, much more support and psychological counselling is needed, not less, and that is very clear from the interim Cass review.

Labour also believes that any ban must be carefully, tightly and clearly worded, and appropriately implemented and assessed. That should surely be par for the course for any legislation, and it must apply to a ban on conversion practices, too. I remain confident that it is possible to deliver a ban without ending up in the quagmire in which the Government have found themselves.

I have the utmost respect for the Minister; I know he is in a difficult spot. I say, slightly cheekily, that someone cannot choose their boss. However, if he did rise to say again that this is all too difficult and complicated, I would gently ask him whether he considers the Conservative Government are still fit for purpose.

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[Peter Gibson]

Will the shadow Minister give way?

[Anneliese Dodds]

Sorry, but I have said I will not to give others time.

LGBT+ people need a Government that will not simply use complexity, which is common to all legislation, as an excuse for inaction. The Government should instead ensure that every LGBT+ person can live their lives in dignity and free from abuse, just like everyone else.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Stuart Andrew)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship this morning, Ms Fovargue. I congratulate the hon. Member for Bury South (Christian Wakeford) on securing the debate. I fully empathise with the strength of feeling shown today on this issue, appreciate the candour of the debate, and empathise with some of the emotional and harrowing stories that we heard, in particular those of Sienna and Ben.

So-called conversion therapy practices are dangerous and pseudo-scientific. They are based on two ill-founded beliefs: one is that being LGBT is a defect and that not being LGBT is somehow preferable, and the other is that it is possible to forcibly change somebody who identifies as LGBT to fit that preference.

I want to lay out my position clearly. Lesbian, gay, bisexual and trans people are invaluable, loved and integral members of the UK communities, and they deserve to be able to live authentically and openly, without fear of discrimination or of being targeted by perpetrators of conversion practices. To put it simply, conversion practices are wrong, and they do not work. The practices can take many different, sometimes overlapping, forms. They may involve the use of physical or sexual violence to hurt, scare and punish the victim. They may also involve abusive and hateful language—shouting at and continuously berating someone for being gay or trans.

Such harmful efforts may also be pitched as therapy, but far from being legitimate support, they are carried out by someone with a predetermined outcome in mind and a specific desire to change the individual accordingly. They may involve telling the LGBT person that their identity is wrong or an illness, and claiming that they can be fixed to be “normal.” To be clear, I absolutely condemn those acts. No individual should be forced or coerced into changing their identity.

I completely understand and empathise with the strong views expressed by hon. Members who want to see meaningful and timely action by the Government. I fully appreciate that the uncertainty around the Government’s next steps in this space, and how those have been reported and discussed, has sometimes been unsettling and frustrating, not least for the LGBT community, who are undoubtedly the group most affected by the issue. I express my sympathies with those sentiments and my apologies for the delay. I continue to be committed to tackling conversion practices—as I was long before I was a Minister—and delivering on our manifesto commitment to combat harassment and violence against LGBT people.

I am working closely with the Minister for Women and Equalities in the hopes of setting out further details in Parliament on the Government’s plans in this space in the near future. Last week in this hall, a debate was held on the 20th anniversary of the repeal of section 28. There was a consensus that this country has come a long way on LGBT rights. I am proud that the UK has built one of the most comprehensive and robust legislative protection frameworks for LGBT people in the world, but of course there is more to do. Many harmful, physically violent acts done in the name of conversion practice are, rightly, already illegal in this country, but there remains a gap, albeit narrow, in the existing legislative framework, particularly surrounding non-physical and speech-based acts, such as specific instances of verbal degradation or abuse that are not covered by existing legislation.

[Peter Gibson]

The Minister will be aware of my recent written parliamentary question and the question that I raised in my speech about whether the provisions in existing legislation, such as the Offences against the Person Act 1861, are sufficient to tackle some abusive practices that are used in conversion therapy. Are the Government actively looking at providing guidance for the Crown Prosecution Service and the police, based on what may already be on the statute book, to provide them with the tools to tackle those practices?

[Stuart Andrew]

My hon. Friend raises an important point. There are elements that could bring about prosecutions, but we are aware that more work needs to be done on providing the guidance that the police, the CPS and so on need. There have been accusations that nothing has been happening in the past couple of months, but that is part of the work that we have been looking at. What could we do to provide encouragement and confidence to those who are implementing the protections of the law and give them the guidance that they will need? I hope that we will be able to provide more of an update on that in the time to come.

Section 28 Repeal: 20th Anniversary

Peter Gibson Excerpts

Wednesday 29th November 2023 Westminster Hall

[Peter Gibson (Darlington) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Sharma, and I congratulate the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) on securing this important debate. It is with great sadness that I heard the story of his election and the homophobia he experienced. I am pleased to say that I experienced no homophobia when I was selected as an out gay man, which I take as a sign of the progress we have experienced as a society.

I was a child who grew up in the 1980s. Although I was not aware of the political backdrop to the section 28 debate, being out and gay at school was unimaginable at the time. We are here today to mark and celebrate the removal of section 28. While it was never used to prosecute anyone, it sent a signal to the gay community that we were “others”, excluded and not part of normal society. Thankfully, the world has moved on and my party has many out MPs, out parliamentary candidates and out Government Ministers. Being gay in our party is now, thankfully, no longer a barrier to progression.

However, despite the legislation being consigned to the dustbin over two decades ago, there is not a gay Conservative who does not feel disappointment and anger at how we were excluded, and I am thankful that it is gone. Both main political parties have moved our society on through, among other things, the equal age of consent, civil partnerships—I celebrated my own some 15 years ago—equal marriage, progress on tackling HIV, availability of PrEP, the Prime Minister’s recent apology at the Dispatch Box to our LGBT veterans and his acceptance of the recommendations of the Etherton report.

Although I am full of praise for how much my party has achieved, and for parliamentarians who have helped in these struggles, we should be mindful of the challenges we still face: the need for a full ban on conversion practices, the rising tide of homophobic and transphobic attacks, wider access to PrEP and safer sex messaging for young people, and a continued push for greater opt-out HIV testing. The increasing celebration of LGBT people in our society is positive, but we must not forget that dark forces are still present and oppose further progress—dark forces that, shockingly, still wrap themselves in religion.

Having recently travelled to Ghana, where the dreadful anti-LGBT legislation under consideration is driving the LGBT community underground and offers conversion abuse as a get-out-of-jail option, I know there remains much to do around the world. Given that there are over 70 countries in the world where it is illegal to be gay—in some places, it can result in a death sentence—there remains much still to do. This Parliament, with its out and proud gay, lesbian, bi and trans MPs, can and should continue to be a light to others.

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[Stuart Andrew]

The hon. Gentleman is right. We have to make sure that what we are talking about are facts, not descriptions of things that are not happening just to try to advance a fear.

Older students in their final years of secondary education are also taught the importance of healthy relationships and of consent and safe sex, ensuring that all our young people, regardless of their sexual orientation, are given the knowledge they need to keep themselves safe and healthy. As colleagues will be aware, a review of the statutory guidance on relationships, sex and health education is under way. The review is looking at whether the coverage of the statutory guidance is right, in terms of ensuring that teaching is safe and age-appropriate, making sure it is based on the facts and seeing whether it can be strengthened on certain topics such as suicide prevention and the dangers of vaping.

We expect to release the draft statutory guidance as soon as possible. It will then be open to a public consultation. Following the consultation, a decision will be made about any new or revised contents to be included in the guidance, including the use of resources and whether any further action would be appropriate, with revised guidance to be published in 2024. It is important that all material is factual and age appropriate.

The UK is concerned by the introduction of any legislation that restricts the teaching of the aforementioned age-appropriate relationship and sexual education. The UK deeply regrets introducing similar discriminatory legislation in the form of section 28 in 1988. It was wrong then, and it is wrong now. It is clear that such legislation had a profoundly negative effect on the physical and mental wellbeing of LGBT people, and it was rightly repealed across the UK in 2003. We encourage other countries not to repeat the mistakes of history.

In addition to ensuring that future generations are well equipped with knowledge, we must ensure that they are also safe to be themselves. We believe that no one in this country should be harmed or harassed for who they are. Attempts at so-called conversion therapy or conversion practices to change someone else due to a wrongful belief that a certain identity is preferable are, frankly, abhorrent.

[Peter Gibson]

The Minister is a huge advocate for our community represented in this debate today. May I put on the record my frustration, anger and disappointment that we have had repeated promises for almost 11 months now? We have heard “nearly”, or “just soon” or “coming around the corner”. We need to see this ban. Many Conservative Members have campaigned vigorously on this issue since we were elected in 2019, and I hope the Minister can say something positive to leave us all with some hope today.

[Stuart Andrew]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I am just scribbling out the word “soon” and putting—

Oral Answers to Questions

Peter Gibson Excerpts

Thursday 20th July 2023 Commons Chamber

The hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire, representing the Church Commissioners was asked—

[Peter Gibson (Darlington) (Con)]

6. What discussions the Church of England has had with churches in Uganda following the passage of the Anti-Homosexuality Act 2023 in that country.

[The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Andrew Selous)]

The Archbishop of Canterbury has written directly to Archbishop Kaziimba of Uganda reminding him of the commitment made by the Anglican communion to treat every person with the care and respect they deserve as children of God and that the communion opposes the criminalisation of LGBT+ people. The Archbishop of Canterbury has said that the Act was a fundamental departure from the commitment to uphold the freedom and dignity of all people; it was not in our resolutions, not in our teachings and not in the Gospel of Jesus we share together.

[Peter Gibson]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his response and for the concern shared by the Archbishop of Canterbury. What more can the Church say to Anglicans across the UK who do not in any way, shape or form believe the death penalty for any crime is compatible with Christian teaching, and to those members of the LGBT community who are rightly horrified by events in Uganda?

[Andrew Selous]

I very much understand my hon. Friend’s concern on this issue, which is shared by many others. As I am sure he knows, each province of the Anglican communion is autonomous. In 2016, however, the primates in the Anglican communion reaffirmed the rejection of criminal sanctions against same sex-attracted people and committed to respecting the dignity and value of every person. It is hard to see how the position taken by the Church of Uganda aligns with the 2016 agreement.

Pride Month

Peter Gibson Excerpts

Thursday 15th June 2023 Commons Chamber

[Peter Gibson (Darlington) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair for this particular debate, Mr Deputy Speaker.

It is a joy and privilege to take part in this debate to mark Pride Month and to have the opportunity to discuss what Pride means to me. It is very fitting that we have this annual event here and I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Elliot Colburn) on moving the motion here in the gayest Parliament in the world.

Our LGBT community has come a long way—a very long way. As a gay man in a long-term relationship now recognised in law, it seems hard to believe just how much the landscape has changed here. This year, Gareth and I celebrate 15 years since our civil partnership. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”] That is a milestone we would never have envisioned the ability to celebrate some 25 years ago when we moved in together. We have seen legal recognition of our relationships, equalisation of the age of consent and adoption rights. Legal reforms have been hard won and should be cherished, but cultural changes, too, have been brought about.

When I was growing up, LGBT people in politics were incredibly rare and certainly not openly so, leading many people to believe that we were simply not there. We now have a Parliament with many gay and lesbian MPs from all political parties and our first trans MP has come out, too. Everyone has a personal story of their journey. I know that their coming out will have helped someone else to know that there are other people just like them, and helped them to find the courage to live their lives openly and freely. More people are coming out in professional sports and the world of entertainment. Each one helps others, but also helps the rest of society understand that our community is represented throughout society.

I was recently photographed by Fiona Freund from CorporateQueer. Last year, here in Parliament, Fiona put on an exhibition on LGBT professionals. It was a fantastic exhibition of a diverse group of people with the most diverse range of stories. Fiona’s exhibition is going on display at Guildhall Yard in London from 24 June and I encourage people to go and take a look. Fiona asked me to write a short piece to accompany my photograph. With your permission, Mr Deputy Speaker, I will recite what I wrote:

“British Politics has come a long way since the very first MP came out in 1984. We now have the largest number of out gay MPs in any Parliament in the World”.

[Dame Angela Eagle]

rose—

[Peter Gibson]

I would love to complete my recital if I may, but I will happily give way at the end. It continues:

“it is not that the actual number of us in Parliament that matters but that our sexuality doesn’t matter. As a teenager growing up in a small town in the North East, the prospect of ever fulfilling an ambition to one day serve in the Houses of Parliament seemed a long off fantasy, to do that as an out gay man seemed an impossibility. In just a few short years, albeit long fought for by the giants of the past on whose shoulders we now stand, age of consent, civil partnership, and equal marriage are milestones that have benefited our community but it is the societal attitudes that have made the most difference to people’s lives. I gloriously celebrated my civil partnership to Gareth in 2008, a life affirming, love affirming public display of commitment and celebration, which I could never have envisaged as a teenager. I know that those legal changes happened because of voices in the House of Commons, a privilege which I now have. As a community we cannot rest on our laurels about the progress we have made, as there will always be some who seek to tear us down or turn the clock back or worse still stigmatise and ostracise others in our queer community. In the short time I have been in Parliament I have used my voice to support our trans brothers and sisters, push for a ban on the abuse of conversion therapy and extend the successful opt out testing regime to ensure we meet our target on no new HIV infections by 2030. No one wants to be known for one thing alone and that’s why I am proud to be, amongst many others, an MP who happens to be gay and not a Gay MP.”

[Dame Angela Eagle]

I add my congratulations to the hon. Gentleman and his, let’s just call him Gareth; his significant other. Would he recognise that the first out gay MP was actually Maureen Colquhoun in 1974? She was outed in 1975, the first out lesbian in the House of Commons, she lost her seat in the subsequent election, but she is a real pioneer and I just wanted to make sure that we remembered her on this occasion.

[Peter Gibson]

I am grateful for the hon. Lady’s intervention. I stand corrected and I thank her for clarifying and correcting that. I will pass on her congratulations to my partner Gareth, although to many of our friends, particularly in the Conservative party, he is known merely as the butcher.

I have been privileged to attend Pride events all over this country and abroad, and I look forward to Darlington’s Pride event this August. Every single event has been full of people smiling, walking hand in hand with the people they love and celebrating the freedoms they either have or have been campaigning for. It is the perfect opportunity to utter the immortal words of Gloria Gaynor:

“I am what I am”.

However, sadly, not everywhere is as enlightened as us. Although there has been a lot to celebrate this year, with a significant number of countries having decriminalised it, in 66 countries around the world, it remains illegal to be gay. In some countries it still carries the death penalty, simply because of who someone loves. Although in our country Pride is a celebration of how far we have come, it remains essential to show others around the world that we can embrace difference, celebrate diversity and live happily side by side with people of all sexualities and genders. There is more to do in our country, too, such as tackling homophobic bullying in schools and ensuring that access to healthcare and testing in our community reaches the right people in the right places. We still need to eliminate the horrors of abusive conversion practices for all in our community, whether they are L, G, B or T.

This year marks 20 years since section 28 was repealed in England and Wales. There is not a gay Conservative who has not had the shame of section 28 thrown at them in debate. While we cannot forget this party’s past, I am still proud of how far we have come. Section 28 and its impact on our community might be in the past in this country, but we should be mindful of the steps being taken in Hungary that, sadly, reflect very similar provisions. I was at secondary school in the late 1980s and suffered elements of homophobic bullying. Although the spectre of section 28 might have hung over them, I have nothing but praise for the supportive pastoral care given to me by fantastic, amazing teachers such as Dorothy Granville.

I mentioned that this year I will celebrate 15 years since my own civil partnership—an important milestone in my life and a day upon which my partner and I fondly reflect. For many, including my hon. Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Dr Johnson) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Sir Robert Goodwill), just a short time after the law had changed it was their first time attending such an event. Since that time, many thousands of couples have celebrated civil partnerships and marriages, with the latest census showing that across England and Wales about 400,000 people are in legally formalised same-sex relationships, compared with only 105,000 at the time of the last census in 2011.

There remains much still to be done. I welcome this Conservative Government’s commitment to tackling the scourge and abuse that is conversion therapy. I very much look forward to the promised legislation being published. It is an issue upon which I have been proud to campaign, alongside my hon. Friends the Members for Rutland and Melton (Alicia Kearns), for Crewe and Nantwich (Dr Mullan), for Carshalton and Wallington (Elliot Colburn), for Redcar (Jacob Young) and for Cities of London and Westminster (Nickie Aiken). That such practices still exist in our free and modern society should be a warning to all that dark forces are never far away. There can be no more dither and delay; the Government must crack on with it now.

People’s solidarity with the trans community is important, as Monday’s Westminster Hall debate clearly showed. The T in LGBT is just as important to our family, and to my family, as the L, the G and the B. As I learned of my nephew Luke’s transition and his coming out as trans, I was reminded of the same journey of fear, acceptance, love and celebration that gay men and women go through. We may live in enlightened times, but there is always more to do.

Pride is a celebration of our diversity and a symbol of how far we have come, but it should also be a challenge to us here to continue to fight against all forms of abuse towards members of the LGBT community in the UK, and a challenge to those countries around the world that do not share our love, tolerance and respect for the entire LGBT community. We can and should always do more, be it on conversion therapy, trans persecution, dismissed gay veterans or homophobic hate crime. We have a fantastic champion in the Minister who is responding to the debate. Happy Pride.

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[Stuart Andrew]

Who knows? Maybe that is where I am going next.

Tens of thousands of LGBT couples have taken the opportunity to stand in front of friends and family to declare their love and commitment to one another, safe in the knowledge that their relationship and their family are no less recognised or valid than any other.

However, as great as our accomplishments have been, challenges clearly remain. Harassment, discrimination and violence against LGBT people continue to exist within our society. As I have mentioned before, I have experienced that at first hand as a survivor of a violent homophobic attack when I was younger, which knocked me unconscious and hospitalised me. It was terrifying, and it still affects me today, but do you know what? I am still here, and I am the lucky one, because the hon. Member for Warrington North (Charlotte Nichols) spoke very movingly about someone who is not. The Government are clear that everyone should be free to be themselves without fear of harm. No one should face violence for who they are, ever. Globally, many countries and territories still criminalise same-sex acts: in 11 countries, they carry the potential for the death penalty, particularly among men who have sex with men, and we have all seen the appalling legislation that has just passed in Uganda, which many Members have mentioned today. It is important that we all demand better for LGBT people around the globe.

Turning to some of the specific points, every Member has mentioned conversion practices. I have spoken before about the need to take action in this area, and I agree with many of the points made today. It is key that we end any practice that falsely claims to cure or change LGBT people. Let me make it perfectly clear: such practices are harmful, and they do not work. I know that many Members have frustrations about the delay. I am personally very committed to this issue, and have campaigned on it for many years. That is why we intend to publish the draft legislation very shortly to ban this targeted threat to our LGBT citizens.

[Peter Gibson]

I am sorry to interrupt my right hon. Friend’s speech, but in this House on 17 January, the then Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chippenham (Michelle Donelan), published a written statement acknowledging and recognising the strength of feeling on conversion practices across the House. It went on to state:

“The Government will publish the draft Bill shortly”.—[Official Report, 17 January 2023; Vol. 726, c. 4WS.]

That was on 17 January. Just how much longer do we have to wait?

Legislative Definition of Sex

Peter Gibson Excerpts

Monday 12th June 2023 Westminster Hall

[Peter Gibson (Darlington) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir George. I congratulate the hon. Member for Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi) on ably leading the debate. Some 263 of my Darlington constituents have signed the petitions we are debating, but these issues are important to us all.

At the outset, I want to say this: trans people matter to me—trans people matter to me as a member of the LGBT community myself, trans people matter to me as members of my family and, most importantly, trans people matter to me as members of the community I represent.

This whole debate prompts strong feelings on all sides, and it is important that we in this place are careful to avoid fanning the flames of an already inflammatory backdrop. By and large, the Equality Act 2010 is clearly drafted and effective legislation, and I speak in favour of the status quo petition. In her recent response to the Government, Baroness Falkner said of changing the definition of sex that it

“could bring clarity in a number of areas”

but also “ambiguity in others.” This place should always be willing to consider clarifications to our legislation where ambiguity exists, but doing that as a knee-jerk reaction does not strike me as good law making.

My overriding fear is that the change suggested in respect of further definitions of sex would run the risk of excluding trans people from effective protection by the Equality Act. By restricting the definition of sex to sex assigned at birth, we could have a situation whereby protection from discrimination created a two-tier system. Trans people who are perceived to be cisgender would have more protection under the law than trans people who are not perceived to be cisgender. Changing the definition of sex in the Equality Act runs the risk of creating an environment of unintended consequences for people who do not conform to gender stereotypes, but nevertheless are cisgender. We must not make it easier to exclude, and safer to discriminate against, people who are part of one of the most vulnerable communities in society.

When looking at what these petitions call for, it is important that we note that changing the statutory definition of a protected characteristic is not “modifying” or “clarifying” the Equality Act; it is in fact changing it, and changing it in a way that alters its original intention and that could throw into question over 10 years of case law. The Gender Recognition Act 2004 establishes that a trans person with a gender recognition certificate is recognised in their legal sex for all purposes. It is already possible to exclude trans people from single-sex settings and services, where that exclusion is proportionate and has a legitimate aim. Many services already operate on that basis. What purpose would changing the definition of sex in the Equality Act serve, aside from allowing it to become even easier for people to discriminate against trans people?

As we have already heard, the population of trans people in the UK is small, with only a few hundred gender recognition certificates issued each year. Reducing trans people’s protections in law, and increasing the level of risk and uncertainty that they have in managing their day-today lives, should not be the goal of any Government or Parliament committed to LGBT equality.

I am determined that everyone in the UK should be free to live their life and fulfil their potential, regardless of their sex, gender identity, race or disability. I am clear that transgender people should be free to prosper in Britain. Our country has come a long, long way on LGBT issues—further than I could have ever imagined as a young man. We must not turn that progress back.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister for Women (Maria Caulfield)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir George.

I am especially grateful to the hon. Member for Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi) for introducing this debate in such a sensitive way, and I am also grateful to all right hon. and hon. Members for their contributions. I feel that we should be able to debate these issues openly and honestly, without being labelled or attacked for having particular opinions or views, and that we should be able to disagree respectfully. I also feel that on all sides of the debate, despite the reservations of some, we have been able to do that this afternoon in a civilised way and I pay tribute to everyone involved.

[Peter Gibson]

Members will have noticed that my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgend (Dr Wallis) has not returned to the Chamber. As he is this House’s only openly trans Member, I think it is really important that we send a message to him that this important debate is not about him and that it should be conducted with love, respect and care for every single person who is in the trans community, whether they be in this House, in the Public Gallery or watching from outside.

[Maria Caulfield]

I thank my hon. Friend for making that point. I spoke to my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgend (Dr Wallis) before this debate, because he had some genuine concerns that he wanted to raise, and I am very happy to follow up after the debate to make sure that we can talk through any concerns that he did not get a chance to raise.

The Equality Act 2010 is at the heart of today’s debate. As with any other piece of legislation, over time we need to reflect on its effectiveness and purpose. It is only right—indeed, it is our duty as parliamentarians—to ensure that we constantly review legislation, to keep assessing whether the statute book is still able to provide a framework that is relevant and responsive to the issues that we face today. Put bluntly, our law has to be functional and able to take into account everyday experiences and respond to modern challenges. Failing to guarantee that would be to do a disservice to our constituents and those who rely on the law to carry out their functions and safeguard their basic rights. With legislation, it is important to note that work on the ground and in practice means recognising that there are instances where protections interact with—and are at times in tension with—the rights of others, giving rise to discussion and debate about how to ensure that the rights of all involved are best protected.

Currently, references to sex in the Equality Act relate to a person being either a man or a woman. A woman is defined as

“a female of any age”,

and a man is defined as

“a male of any age”.

Reference to sex has generally been considered under the Equality Act to refer to whether a person is a man or woman in law, rather than to their biological sex or sex at birth.

Oral Answers to Questions

Peter Gibson Excerpts

Tuesday 7th March 2023 Commons Chamber

[Neil O’Brien]

That is exactly why we will continue to reform the contract as the hon. Lady suggests, and it is why we have started allowing dentists to do 110% of their UDAs, but she is right and we will go further.

[Peter Gibson (Darlington) (Con)]

I refer the House to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests, including my co-chairing of the all-party parliamentary group for hospice and end of life care. Now that integrated care boards have a duty to commission palliative care, what steps is my right hon. Friend taking to assess delivery? Will he join me in calling for the North East and North Cumbria ICB to listen to the hospices in the Tees Valley, which would save our hospices and save the NHS money?

[Steve Barclay]

My hon. Friend is right to draw the House’s attention to the extremely important work of hospices and to the fact that commissioning decisions are devolved to the integrated care boards so that they can target funding in the way that best serves local communities. He is quite right to lobby on their behalf and I am sure that his relevant ICB will take note of that.