Commission on Devolution in Wales

Owen Smith Excerpts

Thursday 3rd November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Gillan]

That shows the advantage of this approach to constitutional change: all hon. Members, no matter where they come from, how they speak and from what direction they approach constitutional matters, will have an opportunity to express their views. I am grateful to my hon. Friend, and I am sure that he will speak later in the debate and let the House know what he feels the Silk commission should consider.

Before I took that series of interventions, I was saying that neither the Assembly nor the Welsh Government are accountable to the people of Wales for the money that they spend on the policies that they implement. The Welsh Government simply receive the Welsh block grant voted by Parliament, and spend it.

That cannot be right. With power comes responsibility, and it is surely better for the devolved institution to be accountable to the people of Wales not just for decisions on public spending in Wales, but by being responsible for raising some of the money needed to pay for those decisions. Even local authorities, despite receiving block grants, have responsibility for raising local council tax, and consequently they recognise the difficulty of raising tax moneys before they spend money. There is no reason why one institution—

[Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

Will the right hon. Lady give way?

[Mrs Gillan]

I have been very generous, and would now like to make some progress.

There is no reason why one institution should be immune from raising taxes, and instead simply spend money and continue to ask for more—but the Labour party seems to think that that should continue. Only last Friday the right hon. Member for Neath said in The Western Mail that seeking more accountability for the Assembly and the Welsh Government was a “curiously disturbing motive”, so I certainly look forward to hearing his further observations in a minute, because I should like him also to explain the contradiction between his position and that of the Labour First Minister, who welcomes the commission and its objectives.

The first part of the Silk commission’s remit is to look at financial accountability. It will consider the case for devolving fiscal powers and recommend a package of powers that could improve the Assembly’s financial accountability. Those powers would need to be consistent with the United Kingdom’s wider fiscal objectives.

The commission will consider the tax and borrowing powers that could be devolved to the Assembly and the Welsh Government. Those include powers in relation to landfill tax, air passenger duty and stamp duty, but they are not limited to those taxes. The commission’s remit, however, is to recommend the devolution only of taxation powers that are likely to have wide support, and it will need to consult broadly to secure that support not only in Wales but in other parts of the United Kingdom.

--- Later in debate ---

[David T. C. Davies]

There have been several motives for devolution. Nationalists saw it as a stepping stone towards independence—I imagine that they would be fairly honest about that—while others, some of whom are now on the Opposition Benches, were afraid of nationalism, and saw devolution as a way of preventing the nationalist genie from getting out of the bottle. I think that they were mistaken. I fear that some may have taken the narrow political view that Wales would always be dominated by Labour whereas Britain would not necessarily be, and that therefore it would not be a bad idea to carve out little corners of the United Kingdom where Labour could always have an inbuilt majority and a left-wing Government could rule. I dread to think that that is the case, but, being a bit cynical, I suspect that there may be some grounds for believing that it is.

[Owen Smith]

The hon. Gentleman is, as usual, being generous in giving way. Does he agree that a further crucial aspect of the rationale for devolution in Wales and Scotland was demand, and that that may have been a greater consideration than nationhood? Does he also recognise that, because of a feeling that—for reasons related to distance and divergence in economic performance—people are getting worse deals from the Government in some parts of England than in others, such as the south-east, there may well be a growing demand in some areas for a fresh look at the possibility of English regional devolution?

[David T. C. Davies]

The answer to the hon. Gentleman’s first question is that despite the enormous amount of money spent on the referendum in 1999, only one in four people went out and voted yes, so the demand could not have been that great. As for his second question about the issues that are bubbling away in the various regions of England, I do not profess to know the answer, and I certainly will not be trying to pose that question. As I said to the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain), the English will have to work out for themselves whether they wish to base a future settlement on England itself or on regions thereof. It is not for us to tell them what to do.

--- Later in debate ---

[Guto Bebb]

It is interesting to note that the Labour Government in Cardiff Bay were planning for 3% cuts per year for four years, yet, as we saw from the settlement granted by the coalition Government, the actual cut is in the region of 2% per year. That would be manageable in any small or medium-sized business in Wales, so I see no reason why it should not be manageable for the Welsh Assembly Government.

Some Members will have noticed that when the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain) was commenting on the boundary changes, indicating, once again, that Wales was being extremely harshly treated, he refused more than once to allow me to intervene. The reason I wanted to intervene was that I was of the opinion that the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) had been promoted to the Opposition Front Bench as a result of his superb understanding of financial matters, because it transpires that he has written in a pamphlet that there is a need to reduce the number of Welsh MPs. However, the shadow Secretary of State for Wales argues otherwise, so now we understand why there has been a change on the Opposition Front Bench. The reason is simply because of disagreements between the two spokespersons.

[Owen Smith]

I would merely ask the hon. Gentleman to clarify this reference, which he appears to have plucked out of thin air.

[Guto Bebb]

The reference is to a pamphlet to which the hon. Gentleman contributed that was quoted at length by Professor Wyn Jones in a recent article in Barn. If he has misquoted the hon. Gentleman, the hon. Gentleman can take it up with the professor, but that article has been printed in a taxpayer-supported publication in Wales, and I shall stick by my comments.

We need to ask ourselves a simple question: why are we here today? We are here because the Wales Office has delivered on the promise in the coalition agreement to establish a Calman-like commission to consider how the Welsh Assembly is accountable to the people of Wales. I accept entirely that the Assembly is accountable to the people of Wales because they elect its Members, as several hon. Members have said. However, every Member in the Chamber will also recognise that local authorities are accountable to the electorate because local councillors are elected; yet they are accountable through the council tax increases they impose as well. Therefore, it is certainly arguable that there is a need for some financial and fiscal accountability in how the Welsh Assembly operates. We should welcome the fact that the coalition Government have recognised the need to consider the issue. It is a strength of the coalition that we are willing to look at difficult questions and consider them at length.

--- Later in debate ---

[Guto Bebb]

I thank the Secretary of State, and I am delighted to hear that those discussions have already started. I take the view that the sooner they are concluded, the better.

[Owen Smith]

I do not intend to refer to the quotation in the pamphlet now—I shall do so later, if I may, and perhaps seek to get it withdrawn. I am intrigued to hear the hon. Gentleman say that he thinks the discussions should conclude as quickly as possible. Do I take it that he will urge his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to do just that—to conclude the negotiations as soon as possible and then to implement them? As my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) has said, we do not need to wait for Silk; we could have this now.

[Guto Bebb]

I am slightly surprised by that intervention, because I thought it was self-explanatory. The sooner the discussions between the Government in Cardiff and the Treasury are concluded, the better. [Interruption.] My understanding is that this is a matter for the Welsh Government and the Treasury. I am sure that the pressure is being brought to bear by my Front-Bench colleagues.

--- Later in debate ---

[Guto Bebb]

I am grateful for that intervention, but the Labour party has no hope of having me as a member.

[Owen Smith]

This is not a point of order, but just a request for clarification. Is there a reason why the hon. Gentleman did not approach me in the Tea Room before mentioning me and misquoting me in the Chamber?

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Gentleman was not in the Tea Room when I was there. I hope that he accepts my apology.

On part I, it is important that we consider the issue of fiscal responsibility. Some of the areas that the First Minister has said are appropriate for change are not acceptable, because they are not significant changes. For example, I do not think that the average person who votes in an Assembly election will be motivated to vote one way or the other because of a slight change in the aggregates tax. We need to look at proper fiscal changes.

--- Later in debate ---

[Owen Smith]

The hon. Gentleman and his colleagues call for accuracy in the context in which we set our remarks about the public spending cuts in Wales, but should they not set themselves the same standards when discussing the profundity of the long-term, systemic economic problems facing Wales, which are reflected in our once again qualifying for objective 1 funding? I profoundly regret that, as I am sure he does, but the fact that we qualify shows how deep seated the problems are.

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful for that point, but the hon. Gentleman misses the key issue: Labour’s failure over 13 years. Labour Members salivate in decrying the 1980s. Wales was not the poorest part of the United Kingdom at the time, but it was when they left office. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman says from a sedentary position, “It is not true”. Well, I will happily hear about the economic indicator that points out that Wales is not the poorest part of the United Kingdom.

[Owen Smith]

I did not say, “It is not true”, and the hon. Gentleman makes a semantic point, because we are talking about fractions. Many parts of the UK have not benefited in lots of respects; in fact, they all share the characteristics of being post-industrial parts of Britain with the same deep-seated economic problems as Wales. Those problems are not something to be solved quickly, but the Assembly has worked extremely hard and been extremely effective in all sorts of areas of public life in Wales.

[Alun Cairns]

I am stunned by the complacency of the hon. Gentleman, an Opposition Front-Bench Treasury spokesman who really should have a better handle on these issues. He talks about semantics and very small percentages, but when Labour left office after 13 years of government Wales was the poorest part of the United Kingdom, despite all the great announcements that we heard during the period, on the Barnett settlement, Barnett plus, European money, match funding, PES—public expenditure survey—cover and how lucky Wales was to have a Labour-run Westminster Government as well as a Labour-run Welsh Assembly Government. The data are quite clear that there has been blatant failure. They highlight the fact that Wales is the poorest part of the United Kingdom, and I am aghast at the hon. Gentleman’s complacency.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alun Cairns]

I could not agree more with my hon. Friend, who further underlines the point.

The key theme is accountability, which was covered extremely well in the excellent report of the Holtham commission, which set the backdrop to the Silk commission, highlighting key issues relating to accountability and some of the points that I tried to make earlier. The report states that the public sector, and I would say the Welsh Government specifically, is

“in some ways detached from the economic circumstances of the citizens it serves”—

that is the need for better accountability—and

“simply blaming Westminster for inadequate resources”

is not an option. That is effectively the position we are in.

The change of Government at Westminster has produced a chorus of an argument from the Welsh Government in Cardiff Bay, to the extent that the level of debate is stymied to mere rhetoric. The best description of the Welsh Government’s approach came from a former Labour Member of this House who said that the Welsh Government is in danger of becoming an

“institutional chip on the Welsh shoulder.”

That encapsulates the approach. The accountability argument must be underlined time and again.

It is too easy for the Welsh Government to play the blame game, and I hope that the Silk commission will consider accountability extremely seriously. The Holtham report offers useful pointers. It states that if it is decided that there is merit in devolving fiscal powers, the tax should be one that

“is paid by a high proportion of Welsh residents…raises substantial revenue”

and

“is ‘visible’ to most citizens”.

It is not surprising, therefore, that in seeking to avoid my accountability argument the Welsh Government and the First Minister call for air passenger duty, stamp duty, aggregates tax, landfill tax, and other obscure taxes. The more obscure they are, the less accountability there is, so they can continue the blame game. That is unacceptable, and I hope that the Silk commission will reject that.

[Owen Smith]

Again, I intervene on a point of accuracy. The hon. Gentleman quoted extensively from the Holtham report, which he purports to have read, so he will know that those are the very taxes that Gerry Holtham refers to as potentially being among the minor taxes that would be transferred to Wales.

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman mistakes my recognition of the quality of the Holtham report for an indication that I agree with all its conclusions, and I simply do not agree with all the conclusions. I said earlier that it is a useful backdrop to the Silk commission. That should be recognised.

To pursue the argument about accountability and the approach taken by the Welsh Government, in a similar vein it needs to be noted that over the past 12 years the Labour party in Wales used council taxes to raise additional funds and then put the responsibility on to local authorities, most of which, as a result of 13 years of Labour Government, were not Labour. The Conservative party ran the same number of councils in Wales as the Labour party, and that is a far cry from how it was at the time of devolution. Most of the funding for local authorities comes from the Welsh Government, so I would suggest that over the past 10 years or so there has been a deliberate strategy of squeezing funding from local government in Wales, forcing local authorities to raise more money in council tax. That is demonstrated by the fact that over the past five years the average council tax increase in England was 2.6%, compared with 3.8% in Wales. That amounts to a plan to make local authorities responsible for the additional revenue that they are raising instead of becoming accountable for themselves. I could go on to talk about the re-banding mistakes that were made in some areas, which squeezed even more council tax out of some of the people who were least able to pay.

I will close by sounding a note of caution about the volatility of many taxes. Whatever the Silk commission develops and comes up with, I hope that it will recognise the volatility between the level of income tax raised three years ago in Wales compared with the level raised now. There is a significant difference, and that will be another important factor for Silk to consider.

--- Later in debate ---

[Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

It is always a pleasure to follow the perfectly formed hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns). I had hoped to follow the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb), as that would have given me an immediate opportunity to respond to his curious remarks—

[Guto Bebb]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Owen Smith]

In a moment.

I could have responded to the hon. Gentleman’s curious remarks about some mysterious article that I have ostensibly written.

[Guto Bebb]

rose—

[Owen Smith]

I will give way in a moment.

The hon. Gentleman said that somewhere in an article I had advocated a reduction in the number of Welsh MPs. If I had been mistranslated, that would have been a different matter, but I have certainly never advocated that. However, the article in question is relevant, and I will talk about it in a moment. Over to the hon. Gentleman.

[Guto Bebb]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for allowing the facts to be stated clearly on the record. The article is called “Towards a New Union” and it was published by Compass. In talking about how to ensure that the West Lothian question is dealt with without moving to federalism, it states:

“Such a reformation of English local government, allied to the reduced number of Welsh and Scottish MPs at Westminster, would go a long way to answering the English Question.”

I think that the article was translated correctly and that my statement was also correct.

[Owen Smith]

I suggest that in future the hon. Gentleman needs to do more than take selected excerpts from things. He should read all 5,000 words of the article, in which he would clearly see that I am talking about the fact that we are going to have the number of Welsh MPs reduced—not that it is desirable, not that it is justified, but that it is a matter of fact as a result of the shameless gerrymandering of the electoral map in Wales that we have seen as a result of the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill. I suggest that the hon. Gentleman needs to read it all—or if he would like to withdraw his remarks, which are wholly inaccurate, he can do so now.

[Guto Bebb]

I believe that the hon. Gentleman doth protest too much.

[Owen Smith]

I do not, at all. I am quoting accurately from my article. I suggest that the hon. Gentleman read it and that in future he does his homework a little better lest he be in danger of misleading the House about my opinions, if nothing else. [Interruption.] He can withdraw his remarks whenever he wants.

I thank the Secretary of State for scheduling today’s debate. Labour Members and, I am sure, Members right across the House are extremely grateful that after 18 months we have a debate about a Welsh matter on the Floor of the House. We did not have a substantive one, of course, about the Welsh aspects of the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill, we have not had one about growth, and we have not had one about the disproportionate effect of cuts in Wales, but we are having one today, for which I am very grateful.

I asked the Library staff to look into when we last had such a long interregnum between substantive Welsh debates on the Floor of the House, but once they got back to the 1940s I told them to stop bothering.

[Mrs Gillan]

The hon. Gentleman will no doubt make absolutely every effort to ensure that the Backbench Business Committee, which is now responsible for scheduling our St David’s day debate, allows us to have it. It did not do so last year, despite my letters to it and despite other Members appearing before it to ask for that debate. If we have that debate, we can cover all the matters that he mentions.

[Owen Smith]

With the greatest respect, I find it extraordinary that the Secretary of State should now view it as the job of the Backbench Business Committee to decide whether we have a debate on Wales. I am surprised that she should go to that Committee to request a debate, rather than go to her colleagues around the Cabinet table such as the Chief Whip and ask for a debate in Government time.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. We are having a debate on devolution in Wales, so I am not quite sure whether a future debate is relevant. We ought to stick to the agenda.

[Owen Smith]

Indeed, and thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker.

Today’s debate and the Silk commission are extremely important, and I welcome them for two reasons. First, they enable the discussion of issues of genuine magnitude. Part I of the commission’s role on fiscal powers, and part II on the boundaries between the competences of Westminster and Wales, both cover enormously important issues that will have an impact on people in Wales in particular and across the rest of the UK. Secondly, the debate is important because it provides an opportunity to discuss the wider issue of the Union, to which my article referred, and the wider context in which the Silk commission is set. A lot of Members, particularly my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) in his excellent contribution, have taken that opportunity. I wish to talk about that wider context.

Government Members, including the Secretary of State, have looked askance today at Opposition Members who have said that they are suspicious of the motivation that may lie behind some of the remarks that have been made, and perhaps even behind the Government’s whole direction of travel with regard to the Union. We are seeing diminishing support from the Conservative party for the concept of the Union.

Those concerns are not plucked out of thin air, and they are not illegitimate. They are born of our reading and listening to comments made by Conservative Members, and of hearing comments such as those of the former Prime Minister, Sir John Major, who said that Scottish ambition was “fraying English tolerance”. They come from reading the conclusions of the report commissioned by the Prime Minister, when he was in opposition, from the current Justice Secretary. It recommended that the only way to deal with the West Lothian question was to create an English Parliament with English votes on English issues, denying Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish Members a vote.

[Mrs Gillan]

indicated dissent.

[Owen Smith]

The Secretary of State shakes her head, but that was the conclusion drawn by a commission led by the Justice Secretary.

[Mrs Laing]

It hasn’t been done.

[Owen Smith]

No, it has not been done, as the hon. Lady says. It is very good to see her today—I am very pleased that we have an English Member taking part in the debate, which is extremely important. However, I say to her that what came out of that report was a commitment in the Conservative manifesto and the coalition agreement, which has now been enacted, to begin a debate on the West Lothian question. We are concerned about the direction of travel and the trajectory that many Members now feel has been set.

In recent debates in Westminster Hall and elsewhere, many Members have referred rather aggressively to resentment felt by English constituents about the supposed unfair stipend or subsidy afforded to, and enjoyed by, citizens in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. As Opposition Members have tried to point out today, that is not an unfair stipend, but a reflection of the accurate needs, born of the industrial heritage and present problems, of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Neither, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen mentioned, is it a reflection of the relative receipt of revenues in Wales versus parts of England where a needs-based formula already applies: for example, greater subsidy—if we want to use that word—and support is afforded to the north-east, the north-west and even the south-west than is afforded to Wales. It is legitimate, therefore, for us to voice our concerns about the Government’s attitude to the Union. That is not scaremongering; it is merely a question and a set of observations on our part.

The other reason we are worried, of course, is that, traditionally, Conservative and Labour Governments have not been partisan in how they have addressed the constitution, but for the first time, judging from how the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act 2011 was addressed in this place, a partisan attitude has been taken to the constitution. I hold that view absolutely fully. It is a view that I have heard expressed on many occasions by Conservative Members, not in the House, but outside. They view the Act as being underpinned by partisan motivations, and I fear that we might be seeing a similar set of motivations here. I sense that the Tory party has been seduced by the prospect of hegemony in England in the long term, even if it means a truncated, fragmented UK. I, for one, as a Welshman and proud British citizen, do not want that to come about.

[Alun Cairns]

Speaking as a Conservative Member, I do not accept that point. In my mind, the purpose of the Silk commission is to provide accountability and stability for the long term, but the motives about which the hon. Gentleman talks were behind devolution in 1997, when it suited the Labour party in Wales, rather than Wales as a nation.

[Owen Smith]

I wholly dispute that. Devolution in 1997 was born of need and demand in Wales. It had been developing for a long time. It perhaps had not come fully to fruition in 1979, but by 1997 there was a clear demand for it, and that demand has thickened over the past 13 years, right through to the referendum, when we saw it greatly increased.

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way; he is being extremely generous. If demand was so strong, why was there only a 50% turnout and 7,000 majority? That is how strong his demand was.

[Owen Smith]

Several Government Members have talked about what, to put it bluntly, is ancient history now and pointed to the size of the mandate and turnout, but we all know that politics is a precarious, parlous business. The Tory party clearly thought that it had a sufficient mandate at the last election. It did not get a majority, but nevertheless it is the ruling party. We have to bury that argument and move on. Right now, there is clear support for devolution in Wales, as was shown in the recent referendum. That is not in dispute. It ill behoves Government Members, who purport to support devolution, to keep dredging up these ancient concerns and this ancient history, because, frankly, it gives us the suspicion that they still have not quite bought into it.

I have a second concern, which, actually, I share with some Government Members—even, perhaps, the hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies)—about the constant, cyclical nature of the interaction between demands and desires, legitimate or otherwise, for additional, incremental powers in Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and even, perhaps, England. That is a problem. It leads to perpetual pressure for change and to very few instances in which we—legislators in this place and the devolved Administrations, which have their own particular locus—can put our foot on the ball and contemplate the broader picture, the country’s longer-term trajectory. That is hugely important. The Silk commission ought to consider that wider context.

In particular, however, this House needs to consider that wider context and be the place in our country where we contemplate the aggregate impact of the changes to the particular discrete functions and powers of different parts of the UK and where we think long term about what the benefits and disbenefits might be. That is not to take an anti-devolutionist perspective, however. I am thoroughly committed to devolution and the principle of subsidiarity—pushing down power and democratic accountability as low as we can—which is why I talk in my excellent and recommended article for Compass about reinvigorating local government democracy in England, which would be a jolly good thing. However, I am also British—indeed, proudly so—and I feel that my values and those of the Labour party transcend national boundaries and the identity politics that stem from an obsession with national boundaries. My concern is that the wider picture—the longer-term perspective—is too infrequently considered in this place or, in particular, the devolved Assembly. I do not want Wales to be as politically peripheral in Britain as it is de facto geographically peripheral. I worry that at some point that will be the net consequence—the aggregate impact—of these things.

Let me turn briefly to some of the specificities of what Silk will consider. I will take only one—corporation tax—but for me, they all highlight the risk that we might face. Anyone picking up the Financial Times this morning could have read an article about Peter Robinson, the First Minister of the Northern Ireland Assembly, who has advocated adopting a 10% corporation tax rate to compete with the 12.5% rate in the south. My view is that this would be hugely difficult and dangerous. Although it might be advantageous for Northern Ireland in the short term, we should also consider the risk that it would necessarily lead to arbitrage between the two areas and to different pricing arrangements. If we had variable taxation bands between different parts of the mainland, we would certainly see arbitrage across the borders and we would need internal transfer pricing policy and legislation in this place and the other jurisdictions. Given the difficulties with legislative vehicles to deal with transfer pricing between European countries—the disaster, even—what on earth would they be like within the UK?

Westminster needs to hold the ring. Westminster needs to consider the risks. Westminster needs to be the place where this debate is thought about, in conjunction with the discrete and—from the perspective of the local jurisdictions—eminently reasonably changes that may be wished for. This place also needs to be where the broader economic context is considered, because, bluntly, some of the peripheral changes to taxation that we are talking about and that Holtham talks about—indeed, perhaps even the larger changes too—will not lead to the growth, jobs, wealth and opportunity that would be created by measures that the Government could be implementing right now, such as those in Labour’s five-point plan.

[Nick Smith]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on his support for subsidiarity and decisions being made at the right level. The success of the Welsh Assembly, particularly in the last few months, has been based on its good ideas, such as the Welsh job fund and introducing local police support officers, all because people in Wales are fed up with the horrible attacks that we have seen from the Government.

[Owen Smith]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The Welsh Assembly has understood that in order to stimulate our economy we need a stimulus. We cannot sit on our hands and assume, as the Government do, that laissez-faire economics will drive economic progress in our country.

[Mrs Laing]

rose—

[Owen Smith]

I will not give way; I am going to finish in a moment.

We need a stimulus, which is why the five-point plan that Labour has produced is absolutely what we should consider implementing. It is also why we should be celebrating what Carwyn Jones and the Welsh Assembly Government have done along the same, as it were, Keynesian lines.

I will conclude with the broader economic picture. It is for this place to bring the global and European context to bear in this debate. However, it is ironic that at a time when Members in all parts of the House are advocating greater collaboration and greater cohesion and integration of states’ fiscal powers on the continent—it is particularly ironic that Conservative Members should be doing that at all—we in the UK are contemplating disaggregating those fiscal powers. That is a profound irony—one perhaps born out of the peculiarity of how our constitutional thinking has developed. It is for us—and, in particular, the Secretary of State for Wales and her Northern Ireland and Scotland colleagues—to ensure that those thoughts are brought to bear round the Cabinet table and to subjugate any party political interest beneath the national interest, for all our citizens right across the UK.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con)]

I thank the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) for his kind words in welcoming me to the debate as the only Back Bencher not representing a Welsh constituency. I am here quite deliberately because I agree with the hon. Gentleman, as well as the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) and, of course, all my hon. Friends on this side of the House, that it is this Parliament, the Parliament of the United Kingdom, that ought to debate matters concerning the Union. I am very much a Unionist, and I will never be anything else. If we start to draw lines and say that people who are elected to seats in Essex should not speak on Welsh matters, or that those who represent Cornwall should not speak on Scottish matters, we are negating the very concept of the Union, which most of us wish to defend.

I am sorry to see that the shadow Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain), is no longer here, because I have saved up all my political arguments to put to him across the Floor. He made some appalling remarks in his speech, but it is his right to do so. I can tell the House that, just as he has Scottish roots, my maiden name is Pritchard, and you cannot get much more Welsh than that. I do not think that my father ever set foot in Wales in his life, however, and I do not think that his father, or his father before him, did either. I must have some Welsh blood somewhere, but that is not the point.

The point is that we are the Parliament of the United Kingdom, and the devolution settlement that we have put together for certain parts of the United Kingdom affects all of the United Kingdom. It is like a tube of toothpaste; you cannot press one part of it without making an impression on the other parts. Anything to do with devolution, and anything that affects our constitution in any way, affects the whole of our country. There ought to be more Members from other parts of the United Kingdom here today, so that they might understand that we, as a whole, have responsibility for what happens in any part of the United Kingdom.

I also agree with the hon. Member for Pontypridd—this is getting disturbing—that the distribution of taxpayers’ money to Wales, Scotland and other parts of the United Kingdom is fair because it is based on deciding which part needs the most input from taxpayers’ investment in our country as a whole.

[Owen Smith]

On a point of fact, the distribution to Wales is not based on need—that is why we have long argued for a needs-based formula—but it is reflective of need.

[Mrs Laing]

I appreciate what the hon. Gentleman is saying. I do not believe that we should have a needs-based formula. I would always argue that the Barnett formula distributes taxpayers’ money in a reasonable manner, even though it obviously needs to be reformed and brought up to date. Just as Newcastle does not require the same sort of taxpayer subsidy as Surrey, and just as the centre of Birmingham does not require the same amount as the leafy lanes of Kent, so it is important that we get the balance right in Scotland and Wales.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Laing]

Of course, Mr Deputy Speaker. I was merely illustrating the balance of fairness, and saying that if we are to distribute funds fairly, we should distribute democracy fairly, too. Many Opposition Members have made that point this afternoon, and it was time for it to be corrected. I am glad you allowed me to do so, Mr Deputy Speaker. I appreciate that we have had a long debate and that Opposition Members still wish to speak, so I shall be brief.

The constitutional development of our country is ongoing and continuous. Like other Members, I was not in favour of devolution to begin with, but I have come to realise the benefits from having devolved government, so I warmly welcome the Secretary of State’s setting up the Silk commission. This is a genuine commission. The Secretary of State has made it clear that she has no “pre-conclusions” about what the Silk commission should do or where it should go. Just as the Calman commission did an excellent job for Scotland, resulting in the Scotland Bill, I am sure that the Silk commission will do the same for Wales.

It is important for the commission to look seriously, as I am sure it will, at the issue of accountability as its first duty. Democratic accountability obviously comes through accountability for spending money and therefore for raising money. At present, the settlement in Wales gives the power to spend without the responsibility to raise taxpayers’ money. I argue that accountability is possible only if there is a link between the casting of the vote, the paying of the taxes and the outcome of the election.

[Owen Smith]

Is not the logic of that argument that all spending should be devolved to Wales in order for it to be fully accountable, or is it enough for just a tiny fraction of spending to be devolved? Does that take the trick?

[Mrs Laing]

No, that is not the logic at all. If the hon. Gentleman argues in that way, he is arguing against himself. He agrees with me and with many of his hon. Friends that it is this Parliament that represents the whole of the United Kingdom, so this Parliament must have the responsibility not only for raising most taxes but for spending them. He has argued, as have others, that devolved Assemblies and Parliaments must bear responsibility as well as wielding power. As I say, if that is his argument, he is arguing against himself.

Oral Answers to Questions

Owen Smith Excerpts

Wednesday 29th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

Talking of trains, the Minister will be aware that the Secretary of State has offered to resign over high-speed rail going through her constituency. The people of Wales are grateful for the offer, but we wonder whether the Minister might ask her when the precise date will be to trigger it. As we are a generous people, we would very much like to give her a good send-off—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The hon. Gentleman’s question must relate to the subject matter on the Order Paper, not to a question that we have not reached—though we might—so I am sure that he will want to refer to the electrification of Great Western main line to Swansea and the Secretary of State’s stance on that matter.

[Owen Smith]

Will the Minister ask the Secretary of State whether she would be happy to resign over the failure to deliver the electrification of the railway to Swansea and the valleys, as she is happy to resign over matters in her constituency?

[Mr Jones]

Given that the hon. Gentleman is so geographically challenged, it is perhaps no surprise that, during the 13 years of the last Labour Government, not one centimetre of electrified line was created in Wales.

Constitutional Reform (Wales)

Owen Smith Excerpts

Thursday 19th May 2011 Westminster Hall

[Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

Thank you, Mr Davies, for calling me. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the first time.

I will start by saying that it is slightly unusual for me to speak on the Front Bench today, as I am following the precedent of the Minister when he was in my shoes, as it were, in Opposition. Like me, he was a member of the Welsh Affairs Committee in Opposition. It is the Committee’s report that we are debating today and therefore I can say to the hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies), who is the Chairman of the Welsh Affairs Committee, that I add my support for the way that he chairs the Committee generally and particularly for the way that he chaired it while this report was being produced. He brought us to a point of considerable agreement across all parties and today he elucidated very well the arguments that we had during the weeks that we debated the Bill. I was less certain about the transformation that he underwent during his speech into a shop steward for MPs from all parties. I certainly will not go so far as the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) in putting the hon. Gentleman’s commendations on my election literature. Nevertheless, the way in which he spoke up for MPs today is very welcome.

The Bill represents what the Committee referred to as a “profound change” to the constitution of the UK Parliament and particularly in respect of Wales, and we have heard that spelled out in different ways by different Members today. Reasonable Members of Parliament cannot argue with that conclusion, because any change that diminishes by fully 25% at a stroke the political representation of a country is a profound change. Any change that breaks a parliamentary protocol in respect of the representation of one country in a Parliament that has been established for almost 200 years—as we heard from my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy), that protocol was established in the Great Reform Act of 1832—is a profound change. That protocol established an over-representation, if you like, for Wales, but it is an over-representation that is designed to reflect the asymmetrical nature of the Union that we have between Wales, Scotland and England, and to offer some protection and insurance that the junior partner in that Union—that is, Wales—does not have its voice drowned out by the leviathan—that is, England —on its border. I believe that the changes that we are discussing potentially threaten the Union, and any such change is absolutely a profound change.

One of the great disappointments for the Opposition during the all-too-hasty passage of the Bill was the seeming inability of the Government to acknowledge the arguments that many people from across the House—on the Tory side as well as on the Opposition side—were making. For the Opposition’s part, I feel that we acknowledged that there is an important argument to be made about equality and fairness in representation being observed and implemented, to the extent that that is possible in representation between different constituencies. We acknowledged that that is an important and long-standing priority.

However, that is not the only consideration or priority that ought to have been considered by the House. It was profoundly disappointing that the Government singularly refused to acknowledge that there might be other considerations, and I suspect that we will hear something similar in a moment from the Minister. The principal one among those other considerations is the importance of giving insulation and protection to the junior partner in this asymmetrical union that we have, and the corresponding danger of changing that balance and the voice of Wales being singularly diminished in Westminster.

The Committee’s report was quite prescient in giving warnings about those dangers. We have heard today from my hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) that it was prescient in its warning that the changes being proposed could lead to a diminution of trust in politics. The Government told us that the rationale for pursuing the Bill was, in many respects, to try to rebuild trust in politics, which we all accept has been damaged in recent years. However, the Opposition fail to see how removing politicians further from the electorate and increasing the gap between electors and elected will help to rebuild trust. If anything, a rational observation is that it is likely to do the reverse and increase people’s mistrust in politics, especially when people look at these changes and understand—as we in the Opposition understand—that they are motivated by a partisan rationale.

The hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr and my right hon. Friends the Members for Cardiff South and Penarth (Alun Michael) and for Torfaen, who are both former Secretaries of State for Wales, and indeed other Members have already discussed the next point that I want to make; in particular, my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen spoke with great power about it. It is that we are deeply concerned about the impact that this change will have on the Union.

Nationalist politicians, with their variable success at the recent election, are undoubtedly emboldened in some respects by the change that is being proposed. For all that we hear the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr talk about the importance of representation in this place, I think that nationalist politicians are emboldened by the extent to which the Bill and some of the other things that we have discussed today are putting the debate about the Union at the top of the agenda. The Bill and the other issues that we have debated are throwing into question the constitutional settlement that we have understood for the last 200 years—indeed 300 years—and challenging us to think about what we mean by the future of devolution, how Wales is to be represented and what balance is to be struck in the light of devolution.

I agreed with the Minister when he said in an intervention that perhaps we had not fully thought through the implications of devolution. We now need to do that and to think holistically about all these issues instead of doing what I fear is precisely the Government’s intention, which is to look at them piecemeal and for party advantage.

I share the concerns of my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen that, for all the Prime Minister’s avowed intention to fight with every fibre of his being for the Union, we are hearing far too much from Conservative Back Benchers who are resentful of Wales. They are resentful of the different decisions that are being made in Wales and of what they perceive to be the parts of the UK, including Wales, that are both politically hostile—they do not elect Conservative candidates—and economically dependent, which is the bit that really worries me. There is an ugly spirit at the back of those concerns that Wales is getting more than it is due and that Welsh needs are being over-accommodated, both in terms of political representation and the economy.

[Geraint Davies]

Does my hon. Friend agree that there is a worrying and increasing number of Conservative MPs who take the view that having separation of both Wales and Scotland from England would be a price worth paying to have a perpetual Conservative Government running England?

[Owen Smith]

I share some of the concern about that issue. I do not think that my hon. Friend is overstating the case, because we have heard far too many noises off from Conservative MPs that lead us to fear that many of them think that breaking up the Union would be a price worth paying. I certainly do not share that view and I do not think that any Opposition Members do either.

Another area that we have touched on today and that the Committee’s report was again prescient about is the impact on the National Assembly of the changes that are being proposed. During the passage of the Bill, we were repeatedly told that breaking the link between elections in constituencies in Wales for the National Assembly and elections for Westminster effectively meant that the National Assembly would be unaffected by the Bill. However, it is only a couple of short weeks since the Bill’s passage and already we have heard the Secretary of State for Wales, in response to a question put by the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr in Welsh questions last week, entertain the notion that a Calman-style commission in Wales might look beyond financial matters and indeed might look at the nature of the elections to the National Assembly and the make-up of the electoral districts for the National Assembly. That is worrying. It is looking like another broken promise from the Government if we are now going to see the National Assembly being so directly impacted by the Bill.

I ask the Minister to try to clarify today what was implied by the Secretary of State’s response to the hon. Gentleman’s question last week. If the Minister is unable to tell us exactly what that commission is going to look at, can he at least tell us whether it will look at alternatives to the current voting system? The hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr slightly misrepresented me when he said that in our discussions last week I said that we had to stick pretty much with what we have got. I did not say that. What I said was that we certainly should not shift instantly if we are to consider these matters through 30 list members and 30 first-past-the-post members. The rejection of the alternative vote last week raises the question of whether we ought to look more seriously at first past the post and I think that there is an opportunity for us to put other alternatives on the table, such as having 60 members, two per constituency, in a first-past-the-post system. There might be a significant amount of agreement across the House for that as an alternative system.

[Paul Murphy]

My hon. Friend knows that I entirely agree with him on that issue. I hope, however, that he, and the House, understand that any substantial constitutional changes to what the people voted for in 1997 would require not just huge consensus but a referendum. I hope that the Minister will indicate that understanding in his response.

[Owen Smith]

That point is very well made, and I look to the Minister to clarify it. We would certainly hope to see it clarified under any possible Calman-style commission.

My final point is a reflection of some of the remarks made earlier. The contrast between the 2011 Act and the constitutional changes that it portends and the House of Lords draft Bill that we saw only this week could not be starker: pre-legislative scrutiny, the establishment of an independent commission, a Joint Committee, a draft Bill—a serious look at what will be a dramatic, radical and historic change to the governance of our country.

No less historic a change for Wales was the announcement, dealt with in eight scant days on the Floor of the House, of a quarter reduction in the number of MPs from Wales. That measure was railroaded through for what I fear were squalid, partisan and political reasons, and I am sure that the people outside this place will be concerned that the Government could apply a similarly high-handed gerrymandering approach to the potential changes to the National Assembly electoral boundaries.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jones]

It is, I am afraid. I think that most of us in this Chamber—with the honourable, or possibly dishonourable, exception of the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards)— are Unionists, and we do not want the Union of this country damaged. Therefore, the West Lothian question must be addressed, and the Government are committed to doing so during this Parliament.

As the hon. Member for Pontypridd said when agreeing with something that I said earlier, perhaps we are doing things the wrong way round—perhaps the exercise should have taken place before devolution was instituted in this country—but the issue must be addressed. I can think of nothing that would do more to endanger the Union than to perpetuate a sense of grievance on the part of certain Members of this Parliament and certain large sections of this community about a perceived lack of fairness in how they are treated.

[Owen Smith]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Jones]

I shall not, as I have little time. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will understand. Over-representation is a problem, and introducing fairness is a good way to start to address it.

To conclude, this debate has been an interesting exercise—but essentially a historical one, as I said earlier. The Select Committee has published its report, but since then, the caravan has moved on. As I said earlier, the AV referendum was held with little difficulty, as far as we can establish, and we must now look to the future. The Boundary Commission’s exercise is continuing, and it will result in provisional proposals in September this year and a final report to the Secretary of State by October 2013.

The new parliamentary constituencies will be in place by the time of the next general election, and appropriate arrangements will be made for the next Assembly election in 2016. All proposals will be taken into consideration— the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr made an interesting suggestion, as did the hon. Member for Pontypridd—before Assembly constituencies are determined.

I reiterate that the fundamental issue addressed by the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act 2011 is fairness.

Oral Answers to Questions

Owen Smith Excerpts

Wednesday 11th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Jones]

I think that that would be premature at this stage, but I am pleased about the decision to refresh the existing cross-border health services protocol for a further year, until 31 March 2012.

[Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

The Minister will be aware that one of the other destabilising effects of the Health and Social Care Bill is the abolition of the National Patient Safety Agency, whose job was to monitor patient safety in England and Wales. In England its job will be taken over by the national commissioning board, but what provision has been made for transferring its responsibilities in Wales to ensure patient safety? If the job is given to the National Assembly, will extra funds be made available for the purpose?

[Mr Jones]

As the hon. Gentleman will know, the existing cross-border protocol is supported by an annual transfer of funds—currently £5.9 million—to the Assembly Government, and an additional payment of some £12 million was made in the last two financial years. These matters will have to be discussed with Welsh Ministers once the new Assembly Government has been established.

Oral Answers to Questions

Owen Smith Excerpts

Wednesday 16th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Jones]

There is no doubt that we are going through difficult economic times, as the hon. Gentleman knows. Unfortunately, third sector organisations are affected by that. I believe that the £200 million that will be available through the big society bank will be of immense benefit to third sector organisations in Wales.

[Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

The Welsh people are a shrewd lot, and they have quickly seen through the big society scam. Since £1.8 billion was cut from the Welsh Assembly budget, leaving councils with a shortfall of many millions of pounds, charities such as People First, which works with people with learning disabilities in the Rhondda Cynon Taff area, have been on the verge of closure. That is throwing more people on to the record unemployment numbers in Wales. As Dawn Price of People First put it to me:

“How can we take part in a Big Society when our funding is being so cruelly cut?”

[Mr Jones]

I realise that some Opposition Members have huge difficulty with the proposition that people should be allowed to organise their own lives in the way that best suits them, rather than such matters being delivered top-down by big Government. However, there are signs that it is slowly dawning on the Leader of the Opposition at least that the big society may be rather a good idea. When he launched Labour’s policy review recently, in which I think the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain) played a part, he said:

“We have got to take that term ‘big society’ back off David Cameron”.

Oral Answers to Questions

Owen Smith Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Jones]

Yes, that is disappointing. China presents enormous opportunities for inward investment to Wales and to the UK as a whole, and these are matters on which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is liaising closely with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills.

[Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

As we have already heard and as the Secretary of State will know, hundreds of public sector jobs in Wales have already been lost on her watch. Is she aware that there will be further job losses at the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency when it closes its offices in Bangor and Cardiff? Will she tell us what she is doing to keep those precious jobs in Wales?

[Mr Jones]

The hon. Gentleman is clearly privy to information to which I am not privy, but in view of the leaked information that appears to fall into his hands so regularly, perhaps that is not surprising.

Oral Answers to Questions

Owen Smith Excerpts

Wednesday 8th December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Jones]

I am sure that that will be a matter of particular concern to my hon. Friend. The Home Office is considering the matter, which will be the subject of an announcement shortly.

[Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

The Minister and the Secretary of State say that individual police forces will be responsible for the cuts that they have to make. However, they will know that North Wales police—overall crime in the area reduced by 40% under the Labour Government—now faces cuts of perhaps 230 officers from 1,600, and 160 police community support officers. If crime increases from the current record lows in north Wales, will the Minister and Secretary of State blame the chief constable?

[Mr Jones]

Before I answer that question, may I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on being awarded the accolade of “one to watch” in the ITV Wales political awards? I can assure him that I am indeed watching him.

The hon. Gentleman’s point has been well rehearsed, but I would rather rely on the chief constable of North Wales, who has given an assurance that the force will continue to protect the public and provide a service in which the public can be confident.

Constitutional Law

Owen Smith Excerpts

Tuesday 30th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to follow the Minister. As he said, the order is largely uncontroversial. The principal amendments are to article 39 of the National Assembly for Wales (Representation of the People) Order 2007, which stipulates that the office for an election agent for a regional election should be within that region; articles 114 and 133, which relate to the Legal Services Act 2007; and schedule 10, which relates to the format of the ballot papers for the constituency and regional lists. We are content that the amendments in articles 6 and 7 of the draft order, which expand the description of bodies regulating the legal profession that must be considered by election courts and describe the duties of the Director of Public Prosecutions therein, are entirely reasonable and appropriate, and we will be supporting them. We are also satisfied that the changes to schedule 10 described in article 10 of the amending order, which relate to the nature of the ballot papers, are also rational and evidence-based changes, based on consultation with all parties and the Electoral Commission. We will be supporting those, too.

We welcome, too, the change proposed in article 5 of the draft order, which amends article 39(2)(b) of the 2007 order and which, in keeping with suggestions made by the parties, the National Assembly and the Electoral Commission, allows election agents for the regional elections to have their offices anywhere in Wales, not solely within that region. That, too, is a sensible and practical change that reflects the realities of how political parties organise themselves for elections, with both regional and constituency bases. In fact, the changes to the constitutional law described in the draft order are all reasonable and sensible amendments. They have all been drafted after respectful consultation with the devolved Administration and are free of party political taint. As such, they stand in sharp contrast to all the other constitutional legislation that we have been debating in this House in recent weeks.

[Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend talks about consultation. Does he know whether any research has been undertaken on the propensity of voters to go for the top name on the list? If so, does he know whether any thought been given to the fact that, with party names rather than individuals’ names appearing on the list, there will perhaps always be a tendency for a certain party to be at the top?

[Owen Smith]

I do not know whether there has been any research on that. I confess that I suspect that there has been none, and I doubt whether many of the provisions in either this order or, more importantly, the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill have been adequately tested, as it has been rammed through with such unseemly haste.

As the Minister said, several of the reasonable amendments in the draft order are predicated on recommendations made by the Electoral Commission for Wales in its report on the conduct of the elections to the National Assembly in 2007—an election that was described in the commission’s document as having been

“alright on the night, but…by the skin of our teeth”.

The commission continued:

“The management of elections in Wales, with significant levels of postal voting, is a substantial exercise requiring strategic investment…project planning and risk management”.

There are lessons that we need to learn, and we need to ensure that the authorities in Wales—the Welsh Assembly Government and, I would suggest, Ministers—have learned those lessons.

[Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend referred to how costly things could be. The funding given to local authorities for electoral registration officers is not ring-fenced, so what guarantee can he give—or, indeed, the Government of the day give—that this money will not only be ring-fenced, but be spent by local authorities on what it is supposed to be spent on?

[Owen Smith]

I am afraid that I cannot give those guarantees, but I hope that when the Minister responds, he will be able to give us further reassurances about that; I shall cover that point further in a moment. We are deeply worried that, with the combination poll and all the complications that will attend on that, this election has the prospect of being a very difficult one. I fear that we have probably not tested the possibilities or made provision for all the complications that could ensue.

[Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the Minister would be wise to listen to the professional election administrators in Wales, who have warned of the potential for huge voter confusion next year when we hold different types of elections on different franchises using different voting systems?

[Owen Smith]

Absolutely. That is an extremely important point, very well made. We have a significant problem ahead of us next May, with the combined poll. It is going to be complicated, and I fear that due consideration has not been given to our concerns.

I would therefore like to ask the Minister what dialogue he or the Secretary of State have had with the First Minister and other Welsh Assembly Ministers to satisfy themselves that the necessary planning and resources are now in place. The omission of any measures to address these concerns in the order, or in any related legislation, suggests that the Minister is wholly confident that, once again, it will be all right on the night. That is despite the fact that, as many Labour Members have pointed out, this time around, thanks to the disrespectful placing of the complicating referendum on AV on the same day, along with the cuts to the Assembly budget and consequently to local government budgets in Wales, there will be far more to handle at this poll and far fewer resources with which to do that.

We remember the chaos in many polling stations earlier this year, with people being ignominiously turned away from the polls. We also remember the chaos in Scotland in 2007, when more than 100,000 ballots were spoiled. Thankfully, Wales was exempt from both those instances, but is the Minister certain that there is no possibility of this happening in 2011 in Wales? He will know that it is much easier to destroy trust in the democratic process than it is to build it up. These ballots must go through without a hint of the problems that we have seen elsewhere. I can only assume that, in his response, he will be able to give us an absolute assurance that he is confident that the ballots will go off without a hitch

Notwithstanding the fact that we will not oppose the order tonight as its passage was not assumed in the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill, as was the case with the associated orders for Scotland and Northern Ireland, is it not instructive that we are debating it after that Bill, which will fundamentally undermine the Welsh elections, has already been hustled through this House? Is this not also illustrative of the high-handed party political approach that this Government have taken to dealing with all constitutional issues in recent weeks, given that such things are usually treated with far greater respect and given far more even-handed deliberation?

Oral Answers to Questions

Owen Smith Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Gillan]

The hon. Gentleman knows that to change the prospects of all children through the new fairness premium of £7.2 billion over the spending review period is exactly what this Government want to do. It includes a £2.5 billion premium to support the educational development of the poorest pupils.

[Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

It is not simply in respect of child poverty that people in Wales are worried; whole towns in Wales are now worried that the Government have them in their sights. We are used to it, of course, in places such as Merthyr—in the 1930s, the Tories proposed to close it down completely and move people to the colonies—but I wonder whether Wales Office Ministers share the view of the Work and Pensions Secretary that people there, in Merthyr and in the valleys, are workshy and should simply get on a bus and find a job.

[Mrs Gillan]

The hon. Gentleman knows that, with our packages of welfare reform, we are trying to lift people out of lives of dependency. The right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) asked about child poverty, which had been increasing under his Government since 2005. Is the hon. Gentleman not ashamed of the previous Labour Government’s record on the matter?

Welsh Grand Committee (Scrutiny)

Owen Smith Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd November 2010 Westminster Hall

[Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

It is a delight to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Caton. We are particularly lucky that a Welsh Member and a Welshman is in the Chair. That is particularly appropriate.

I offer my warmest congratulations to my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Alun Michael) on securing the debate and on highlighting the twin critical issues at its heart. The debate is about balancing the rights of the minority in the House, or the Opposition party, against those of the majority, or the Government party, in scrutinising legislation as it relates to Wales. There is also the larger, far more important issue of balancing the rights of the minority country, Wales, against those of its dominant partner, England, in their peculiar and, for the moment, stable union within the UK.

Too many Members to list have spoken with enormous passion about both those critical issues. Their eloquence and passion bears great testimony to just how deep the feeling is among Opposition Members that Wales—our country—is being ill served by the coalition Government. We feel that we are being disrespected, disregarded and, today, disfranchised.

[Alun Cairns]

Would the hon. Gentleman not acknowledge that, among the many crocodile tears that have been shed today, there is just a hint of self-interest?

[Owen Smith]

No, I would not. Throughout the debate, one of the most disconcerting things about the Government’s Front Benchers, and particularly the silence of their Welsh Front Benchers, has been the absolute failure to acknowledge that there are any legitimate questions to be asked about balancing the interests of Wales against those of England. The continued refrain has been that we are talking about balancing one seat and the votes in it against another seat and the votes in it. There is a legitimate issue there, and we have acknowledged throughout that the issue of equalisation is legitimate, but it is just as legitimate to address the issue of balancing the aggregate weight of Wales and Welsh seats against that of English seats—our Dai of 40 seats against the English Goliath of 533 seats. That is a legitimate question, and the Welsh Grand Committee should have met to consider it. The Secretary of State’s decision repeatedly to deny Welsh Members our right to discuss these critical issues is yet another example of the disrespect agenda that is the hallmark of this Government’s approach to Wales.

[Dr Hywel Francis (Aberavon) (Lab)]

Under the previous Government, the then Secretary of State for Wales, my right hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr Hain), was anxious to hold an early meeting of the Welsh Grand Committee to discuss the Welsh Affairs Committee report on the National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order 2009. However, as a result of the Select Committee’s intervention while I was its Chair, the Secretary of State graciously acceded to delaying the meeting. Is that not the way the present Secretary of State should behave? She should listen, as another former Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy), said.

[Owen Smith]

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. One thing that is clear from the debate and from the history of the Welsh Grand Committee is that Labour Secretaries of State and, indeed, previous Conservative Secretaries of State have a starkly different attitude from the present Government to listening to those who represent Welsh constituencies and to calling the Welsh Grand Committee when we need to discuss matters of importance for Wales. The Committee met 21 times at the discretion of my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy), but it has met once in the past six months. We still do not know whether it will meet to consider the CSR, but it must.

I want to start my substantive remarks with a challenge to the Minister. I want him to defy my assertion that the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill is having a far greater impact on Wales than on any other area of the United Kingdom. Wales is losing 25% of its constituencies versus just 6 or 7% in the rest of the UK. That impact is out of proportion. The Minister will argue that that is happening because Wales has historically smaller constituencies, but can he, unlike his hon. Friends on the Front Bench, not accept that a specific case can be made for Wales? We are not the west midlands, but a separate, distinct nation with a different set of priorities. That is what needs to be considered alongside the legitimate questions about equalisation.

[Albert Owen]

Had the hon. Member for Cardiff North (Jonathan Evans), who claimed to be a democrat, given way, I would have asked him whether it was not more democratic that there was a referendum in Wales as part of the devolution settlement. That settlement said that we would retain the same number of Welsh representatives in Parliament. We are now having another referendum. Would it not have been sensible to wait until after the people of Wales had spoken in that referendum and we had seen the outcome before gerrymandering seats in Wales?

[Owen Smith]

Again, I completely agree. It is an absolutely telling indictment of the Government that they did not even think about the implications of the referendum because they are hellbent on railroading the proposed changes through in an attempt to rig not only the next election, but successive elections. This is about trying to secure Tory power in perpetuity, and we need to defend against that.

As various Members have said, the Welsh Affairs Committee is a Tory-chaired Committee with a Tory majority. It concluded unanimously that the proposed changes would have an impact on not only Wales, but the UK—on our constitution and the union between Wales and England.

[Alun Cairns]

This is the second or third time that I have heard the point about the make-up of the Welsh Affairs Committee, but it is made up in just the same way as every other Select Committee. Will the hon. Gentleman tell me when this Administration introduced the process and structure that led to the imbalance that he talks about?

[Owen Smith]

I will respond with a counter-question, I am afraid. As someone who sat with me on that Committee, does the hon. Gentleman deny supporting its conclusion that the Bill would gerrymander the map of Wales and should not be passed?

[Kevin Brennan]

Although the Select Committee will reflect the Government’s majority, it was the Government who decided to have a Conservative Chair. Can my hon. Friend imagine their doing the same to the Scottish Affairs Committee?

[Owen Smith]

To be honest, given the way they have been behaving recently, yes, I can imagine that. That is precisely the sort of thing they might consider doing, no matter how outrageous it is. [Interruption.] No, I will not give way any more. I want to ask the Minister a further question. If he cannot deny that Wales will be affected more than other parts of the UK, is he telling his constituents that? Is he explaining to them that he is sitting idly by watching Wales burn and his constituents’ representation in Parliament be diminished? I would be intrigued to know what his constituents in Clwyd West think about that.

I would also be intrigued to know whether the Minister has told his constituents, as we have heard so often from Conservative Front Benchers, that people’s local identities and local communities, as reflected in their political representation, no longer matter. Apparently, none of that matters, and the only thing that counts is a crazy arithmetical formula for determining in a Bill how our constituencies should be organised henceforth. Is the Minister telling his constituents that that is all that matters these days and that their identities do not?

[Roger Williams]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way, but I just leave him with this thought. MPs have to deal with important issues, such as education and health, and we in Wales have democratic representation in the Assembly for that. There is nothing equivalent for the regions of England, so the democratic deficit will lie more in England than in Wales.

[Owen Smith]

I do not accept that at all. The critical point is that in 1997 Wales voted for devolution—[Interruption.] Perhaps hon. Members will listen. It voted for devolution and not marginalisation within the affairs of the United Kingdom. Marginalisation by the back door is happening under the Bill. I am pro-devolution and in favour of further devolution for Wales, as I know many Opposition Members are; but I am not in favour of having as a corollary a reduction without reference to the Welsh people of their voice in Westminster. We did not vote for a lessening of our say here, and we still want a proper say as part of the UK. We are not getting that under the present Government.

It is a disgrace that we have not had a Welsh Grand Committee. We face a crisis of constitutional issues, but also, as The Western Mail noted this morning, a crisis because of the unfair cuts’ impact on Wales. I challenge the Minister to tell us today whether, if we cannot have a Welsh Grand Committee on the constitution, we will get one to discuss the economy and its impact on Wales.