Oral Answers to Questions

Owen Paterson Excerpts

Wednesday 15th December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

1. What recent discussions he has had on steps to deal with the past in Northern Ireland.

[The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Owen Paterson)]

My hon. Friend the Minister of State and I have met with political parties, community organisations, academics and victims groups from across the community to discuss dealing with the past. We will continue to listen to the views of people in Northern Ireland to find a way forward on this sensitive and contentious issue.

[Mr Campbell]

The Secretary of State made a commitment, which he repeated several times, that there would be no more costly, open-ended inquiries. Any decision by him to hold a further, restricted inquiry—for example, into the Pat Finucane incident—would be opposed on the one hand by nationalists and republicans, but regarded by others as a prerequisite for long-standing grievances, against the Irish Republic’s Government, for example, to be inquired into. Is it not more sensible and consistent for the Secretary of State to say, “We’ve reached the end of the inquiry road”?

[Mr Paterson]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his question. He is quite right: our stated policy is that we do not want to see any more costly and open-ended inquiries. However, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said during the debate on the Saville statement that we would look at individual cases. Our position on the Finucane case—a contentious case, as the hon. Gentleman knows—was laid out clearly in my written ministerial statement on 11 November.

[Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)]

At the risk of broadening the question from the previous exchange, let me say to the Secretary of State that coming to terms with history is the responsibility of us all. Those who are British, those who are Irish and those who are both welcome the progress that has been made over the past few years and recognise that many have contributed to it.

[Mr Paterson]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We want to bring as broad a range of people as possible into the process of negotiation, so that when we arrive at a means of going forward, as many people as possible have bought into it.

[Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State will know that the Attorney-General for Northern Ireland is in the process of reopening a large number of historical inquests, which will place significant additional financial burdens on the Courts Service and the police service. Given the Government’s responsibilities in relation to the past, how does the Secretary of State intend to approach the sharing of those costs?

[Mr Paterson]

The right hon. Gentleman played a key role in seeing those powers devolved. He will know that the administration of inquests is a devolved matter that is entirely in the hands of the Attorney-General for Northern Ireland. It would not be for us to interfere in the mechanics and financing of his Department, which are entirely down to the local Executive.

[Mr Shaun Woodward (St Helens South and Whiston) (Lab)]

Given the commitments by the British and Irish Governments at Weston Park, and the commitment by those Governments to an inquiry into the death of Pat Finucane, does the Secretary of State recognise that it would be unwise for the British Government to act unilaterally?

[Mr Paterson]

The right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that this is not an easy case, as he had three years to resolve the matter, as the real Secretary of State. He effectively ended up with a Mexican stand-off, where the family wanted one thing and he wanted them to have an inquiry, as I understand it, under the Inquiries Act 2005. He knows that this is not an easy matter to resolve, and that is why I had a helpful meeting with Mrs Finucane and her son. I laid out the process that we intend to follow in my written ministerial statement of 11 November.

[Mr Woodward]

The right hon. Gentleman will know that I have also met with Geraldine Finucane. I pay tribute to the way in which she has conducted herself, as I know he has too. However, notwithstanding his remarks about future inquiries, now that he is the real Secretary of State—as he described it—is he beginning to understand the damage that could be done to community support for the devolved institutions and to the British Government if he were to renege on existing undertakings, made by a previous Government and supported by his party in opposition, to independently investigate the past?

[Mr Paterson]

I cannot fail to point out that the right hon. Gentleman did not meet Mrs Finucane when he was the Secretary of State. I wrote to her in June, and I had a meeting in November, which was the time that the family chose, and we had a very sensible discussion. He knows that this is not an easy issue to resolve, and I laid out very clearly in the written ministerial statement that a number of issues have to be considered. We are quite open-minded about this, and we are determined to try to find a resolution that is satisfactory to all sides.

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

2. What recent assessment he has made of the likely effect of proposed changes to public expenditure in Northern Ireland on policing the threat to security from dissident groups.

[Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (Lab)]

3. what discussions he has had with the Northern Ireland Executive on the likely effect of proposed changes to public expenditure in Northern Ireland on policing the threat to security from dissident groups.

[The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Owen Paterson)]

I meet the Justice Minister regularly to discuss the policing of the terrorist threat and related expenditure. I welcome the publication this morning of the Northern Ireland Executive’s draft budget, with its significant allocation to the Department of Justice. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that this Government will ensure that adequate resources are available to meet the threat.

[Bill Esterson]

Does the Secretary of State understand the very real public concern, not just in Northern Ireland but elsewhere in the United Kingdom, about any cuts in front-line policing in Northern Ireland and the impact that they would have on security and public safety?

[Mr Paterson]

I am fully aware of the concern that the small number of terrorists presents. That is why the Government have made a fair settlement on the Executive, and I am very pleased today that they have agreed a draft budget with a substantial allocation to the Police Service of Northern Ireland. We have made it absolutely clear that, should the security position deteriorate, we will be open to further discussions with the Executive, as was agreed by the previous Government.

[Gregg McClymont]

The Minister will be aware that the issue of fleet renewal is causing considerable concern. Will he support any request for additional funds from the PSNI to meet the case for fleet renewal?

[Mr Paterson]

I think that I alluded to that a second ago. We are quite clear that, should the security position deteriorate, and should a good case be made by the Justice Minister and the Chief Constable—one of whom I talked to this morning; I spoke to the other yesterday—we will be prepared to consider going to the contingency reserve for extra funds in order to bear down on the terrorist threat.

[Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con)]

Can the Secretary of State confirm that, if the situation were, regrettably, to get worse in Northern Ireland, either immediately or over the course of the next few years, those extra resources would come from the UK Government, rather than from the money already allocated to Northern Ireland?

[Mr Paterson]

We are absolutely clear about that. It was part of the settlement made by the previous Government that, should there be a deterioration in the security position in Northern Ireland, the Government of the United Kingdom would be prepared to accept a bid, on security grounds, for resources from the contingency reserve. I repeat that emphatically today. I said that to the Justice Minister when I spoke to him this morning.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

In view of the recent revelations on the WikiLeaks website—which were confirmed by the former Irish Prime Minister, Bertie Ahern—that Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams had prior knowledge of the Northern bank robbery in 2003, can the Secretary of State confirm that co-operation will take place between the Garda and the PSNI, that a full investigation will take place, that no stone will be left unturned, and that the Historical Enquiries Team will be allowed to pursue this matter in the way that it is pursuing other cases in Northern Ireland?

[Mr Paterson]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his question. I think that the answer was well put by the party leader at the British-Irish Council in the Isle of Man earlier this week. We are quite clear that those who have a past can explain for themselves. For the present, however, we are content for those who adhere to the Mitchell principles and pursue their legitimate political aims by peaceful democratic means to play a part in the process. The other issues that the right hon. Gentleman raised are matters of law and order; they are matters not for elected Members but for the police and the prosecuting authorities.

[Mr Dodds]

I am grateful for that answer, as far as it goes. Of course, no one in the Chamber today was at the BIC meeting in the Isle of Man, so I would be grateful if the Secretary of State could elaborate on that point. Will he also make it clear that any resources that the Historical Enquiries Team needs to pursue these particular allegations will be forthcoming, and that the community in Northern Ireland can be assured of an equality of pursuit of allegations in Northern Ireland against dissident republicans and mainstream republicans if they were involved in terrorist activities, such as have been alleged not just by WikiLeaks but by the former Irish Prime Minister?

[Mr Paterson]

We are strong supporters of the work of the Historical Enquiries Team, who are looking at every one of the 3,268 deaths over the course of the troubles, and we are satisfied that they are absolutely colour-blind in approaching every one of these dreadful incidents. They have also been accredited with neutrality by European institutions, and we are happy that they should pursue their work, which is in the hands of the devolved Administration and financed locally. The Prime Minister and I have been on the record on many occasions, supporting the neutral work of the HET, because we know it does bring significant satisfaction to the families who have so far received reports.

[David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP)]

The Secretary of State will be aware that it has been announced that individuals from my constituency will stand trial next year for the murder of the soldiers in Antrim. Does the Secretary of State agree with me that the full rigour of the law needs to be applied and that the sentencing needs to fit the crime?

[Mr Paterson]

I think that is a sub judice issue. We support the rule of law and it should be pursued by the legitimate people in authority in the legal sphere and the judicial sphere. It is not for us as elected politicians to interfere.

[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

I am grateful to the real Secretary of State for the comments he made earlier, but members of the PSNI tell me that two of their principal anxieties are the dissident threat and, obviously, financial uncertainty. On 10 November, the Secretary of State said that should the situation become worse, the PSNI would

“have the right to approach the Government”—[Official Report, 10 November 2010; Vol. 518, c. 276.]

—something which I think we all have. Today, he has gone a little bit further. Will he today stand four-square with the PSNI and say that, should the situation become more grave—which we hope it will not—he will support the PSNI in an application to the contingency reserve?

[Mr Paterson]

I welcome the hon. Gentleman to his new role. I will say emphatically, for the third time during this Question Time—and I said it to the Chief Constable yesterday and to the Justice Minister this morning—that should the security position in Northern Ireland deteriorate, we will adhere to the arrangements, which we have conceded were fixed by the previous Government, that given a deteriorating security position, the Justice Minister and the Chief Constable can come to the UK Government with a security case for funds from the contingency reserve.

[Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)]

4. What discussions he has had with the Irish Government on arrangements for the proposed visit by Her Majesty the Queen to the Irish Republic.

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[Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)]

8. What recent discussions he has had on the threat to security in Northern Ireland from residual terrorist groups.

[The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Owen Paterson)]

I meet regularly with my security advisers and David Ford to discuss the terrorist threat in Northern Ireland. The threat level in Northern Ireland stands at severe, meaning an attack is highly likely. So far this year there have been 206 arrests, both in Northern Ireland and the Republic, for acts of terrorism and serious criminal incidents related to terrorism.

[Robert Halfon]

I thank my right hon. Friend for his reply. How is he working with the Republic of Ireland to facilitate the cross-border strategy for dealing with dissident violence?

[Mr Paterson]

I am very grateful for that question. Co-operation with the Republic of Ireland on this issue is at an unprecedented level. I pay tribute to the outgoing commissioner, Fachtna Murphy, who has done a tremendous job, and I am delighted that Martin Callinan has been appointed as his successor. [Interruption.] A symbol of that was the cross-border strategy announced this week, showing the unprecedented collaboration between the PSNI and the Garda. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. There are far too many noisy private conversations taking place in the Chamber. I call the Rev. William McCrea.

[Mr Paterson]

I am delighted to see the hon. Gentleman back in his place following his illness, as always asking pertinent questions. He will know that police levels in Northern Ireland are the highest in the United Kingdom at 4.2 per 1,000. The numbers of police are for the Chief Constable to decide—it is an operational matter—but as I have said on several occasions already in this Session, we will stand by Northern Ireland and if the Chief Constable and the Justice Minister make a good security case, we will consider access to the contingency fund.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

9. What recent assessment he has made of the effects on the Northern Ireland economy of recent financial developments in the Republic of Ireland.

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[Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)]

10. What recent discussions he has had with the Northern Ireland Executive on the provision of resources to the Police Service of Northern Ireland to address security threats from dissident activity.

[The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Owen Paterson)]

PSNI resources are primarily a matter for the devolved Administration. I am delighted that the Executive have agreed a draft budget. This Government will work to support the PSNI where exceptional security pressures exist.

[Steve Rotheram]

Can the Secretary of State tell the House whether he has given the Chief Constable of the PSNI a specific assurance that he will continue to have access to additional funds from the reserve, so that vital community-based policing does not suffer from a lack of resource?

[Mr Paterson]

I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his question. Of course, in Northern Ireland, community policing is an absolutely vital part of moving the process forward. The Chief Constable has been allocated significant resources in the draft budget today, and it is up to him how to apportion those significant sums of money.

[Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Con)]

11. What plans he has to make Northern Ireland an enterprise zone.

[The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Owen Paterson)]

My hon. Friend the Exchequer Secretary is writing to the Northern Ireland Executive this week with a draft consultation paper on rebalancing the Northern Ireland economy. He and I will be meeting Executive Ministers in the new year to discuss the paper before publishing it for consultation.

[Jack Lopresti]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that Northern Ireland’s high dependence on the public sector is simply untenable, and that it is more important than ever that private sector innovation be promoted in the Province, in order to rebalance the Northern Ireland economy?

[Mr Paterson]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right on this, and I am very pleased to see his continued interest in Northern Ireland matters. We have been saying for three years now that an economy that depends for 77.6% of its GDP on state spending is wholly unsustainable. It will need rebalancing. That will take time. To do nothing is irresponsible; to move too fast is irresponsible, and I estimate that it will take, probably, 25 years. This week, we will be sending a paper to the Executive for discussion, looking at ways of turning the whole of Northern Ireland into an enterprise zone.

The Prime Minister was asked—