Education

Nick Gibb Excerpts

Wednesday 20th March 2019 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for School Standards (Nick Gibb)]

I beg to move,

That the draft Relationships Education, Relationships and Sex Education and Health Education (England) Regulations 2019, which were laid before this House on 25 February, be approved.

The regulations represent an historic step that will equip children and young people with the knowledge they need to lead safe, healthy and happy lives.

The world children are growing up in has changed considerably since the sex and relationship guidance for schools was last updated in 2000. Thanks to the internet, children are encountering a more interconnected and interdependent world. That presents opportunities and advantages, but also risks, as children have greater exposure to information, content and people that can and do cause harm. That is why, during the passage of the Children and Social Work Act 2017, thanks to the work of my right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Mrs Miller), my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) and other hon. Members, the Government introduced an amendment to that measure requiring the introduction of compulsory relationships education for all primary school pupils and compulsory relationships and sex education for all secondary school pupils.

Having listened to concerns about mental health, the impact of the online world and long-standing risks related to unhealthy lifestyles, we also decided to make health education compulsory in all state-funded schools.

[Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con)]

Although I accept that the proposal is necessary in this day and age, does the Minister accept that, in politics, we have to take people with us, otherwise it causes a great deal of resentment among our constituents? Many of my constituents do not go along with the proposal and there is a great deal of concern in the Muslim community and among those of Christian faith.

[Nick Gibb]

I do understand my hon. Friend’s concerns. We worked very hard during and after the consultation process to ensure that we could assemble the widest possible consensus on the new draft guidance. We accept that it contains some very sensitive issues and I understand that some parents have legitimate concerns about their involvement in their child’s education, particularly in primary schools. We have considered that very carefully.

[Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for giving way. I think he knows what I am going to ask him, because he has been very helpful prior to this debate. What can he say to reassure, for example, the Muslim community in relation to these proposals? Can he provide some reassurance to them?

[Nick Gibb]

I can give the hon. Gentleman, the Muslim community and other communities who share those concerns outside this House the assurance that schools will be required, for example, to consult with parents on their relationships education, and on relationships and sex education policies. One key purpose is to help to minimise any misconception about the subjects and what might be taught, and to enable parents to decide whether to request, for example, that their child is withdrawn from sex education. We encourage schools to engage proactively with parents to set out how and when they plan to cover topics included in relationships education and RSE, so that parents can understand what is going to be taught. This means ensuring that parents know what they can and cannot withdraw their children from, that they can have an input into policies, and have sufficient time and notice to make an informed decision about whether to withdraw their children from sex education.

[Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

Traditionally, Conservative Governments have held the line that parents have an unfettered right to withdraw their children from sex education. Under the proposals, it will for the first time be possible at certain ages for that parental veto to be overridden. What I want from the Minister, if I may ask for this, is a commitment that it will be used very rarely, that the headteacher will have to justify his actions, that it will only be used in certain circumstances where it is definitely in the interests of the child, perhaps because of some behavioural issue, and that it will not be taken as a matter of course that the veto of parents is being overridden.

[Nick Gibb]

I will come on to that specific point later in my opening remarks, but I can give my right hon. Friend the reassurance that only in exceptional circumstances will the school not respect parents’ request to withdraw their child from sex education in secondary school. There is an absolute right for parents to withdraw their child from sex education in primary school.

[Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)]

This is always a sensitive subject, but we are talking about giving information to children about the daily reality of some of their contemporaries. Does the Minister not agree that we are talking about doing this in an atmosphere where we have seen what happens when being LGBT is somehow hidden and ashamed? It leads to bullying, high levels of self-hatred and mental health issues, self-harm and sometimes even suicide. Will he not just listen to those who wish completely to separate their children from basic human knowledge about the reality for LGBT pupils in schools?

[Nick Gibb]

That is, of course, one of the purposes of introducing the regulations today and the guidance is very clear about the importance of LGBT issues. However, we also want to make sure that we have a wide consensus on these issues. They are ultimately a matter for teachers in schools to decide. I will come on to that point in a little more detail.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Minister, like others in this Chamber I have a real concern over the rights of parents. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be able to help me on a specific point relating to the regulations that I know many others cannot understand. Given that RSE is to be taught in secondary school, how will it be possible to withdraw a child from sex education but not relationships education? Logically, a withdrawal from sex education must surely also be a withdrawal from relationship education unless the two subjects are taught separately. What is it to be: teaching RSE as an integrated subject with the right of withdrawal from RSE as a whole; or splitting the subjects in two, so that one can apply the right of withdrawal to just sex education? It is either one or the other.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order. Before the Minister replies, I remind the Chamber that a lot of hon. Members wish to speak, so interventions need to be brief.

[Nick Gibb]

The right is for parents to withdraw their child from the sex education element of relationships and sex education. When it passed the Children and Social Work Act 2017, the House made it very clear that there would be no right for parents to seek their children’s withdrawal from the relationships element of this new compulsory part of the curriculum, either at primary or secondary level.

[John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)]

The Minister will be aware—not only from comments made in this Chamber, but from his mailbag—of the very considerable concerns of many people in the community. He said that teachers will decide; does that not sum up one of the fundamental issues? There seems to be no external reference mechanism able to arbitrate if discussions break down between the parents and the heads and teachers. How will we resolve that? We need to resolve it before we impose the policy on schools, do we not?

[Nick Gibb]

The purpose of requiring consultation between the school and parental groups is to dispel the myths that build up about the content. If parents have concerns about the content that is being taught, schools should take them very seriously. We worked very carefully on the wording of the draft guidance, to bring as many people as possible on board, and we are giving schools discretion over when to teach some of the more sensitive subjects. The compulsion is to ensure that those issues are covered at some point during the children’s education, but when that happens will be a matter for the schools to decide. Schools also have to take into account the faith backgrounds of the pupils and their parents.

[Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab)]

rose—

[Nick Gibb]

I will give way to the right hon. Gentleman and then make some progress.

[Liam Byrne]

I am grateful. As the Minister knows, I have worked with his officials every day for the past month on one of the issues in one of my schools. The parents at that school believe that the Equality Act 2010 and every single protected characteristic in it should be taught, but as a result of the breakdown in consultation, the regional schools commissioner, an independent arbitrator appointed by the Department and I have had to come in and spend a month on the matter. Surely that situation cannot be replicated in thousands of primary schools if there is a breakdown of trust, so we need more prescriptive guidance to ensure that there is no retreat from the aims of this proposal.

[Nick Gibb]

The policy makes it very clear that there should be consultation between the schools and parents; that the schools should publish on their websites the details of what is to be taught; and that parents should be given plenty of notice, so that there is time for their input into the development of that policy. They need to know that if the school takes a different decision, they can, ultimately, withdraw their child from the sex element of RSE in secondary schools.

The new subjects will put in place the building blocks that children need to develop healthy, positive, respectful and safe relationships of all kinds, starting with lessons at primary school about family and friends. At secondary school, what is taught in relationships and sex education will expand to reflect the person as a potential partner and parent; for example, teaching will include the characteristics of healthy and unhealthy intimate relationships, the roles and responsibilities of parents with respect to raising children, and the positive effect that good relationships can have on mental wellbeing. These subjects give us the opportunity to help to protect children and promote personal development and positive character attributes such as honesty, integrity, kindness, resilience and courtesy.

All children will be taught about online relationships and about how behaviour should be the same online as in other contexts. At age-appropriate points, they will be taught about specific online issues, such as who and what to trust, or sharing information. In secondary schools, they will be taught about the dangers and the potential impact of sexually explicit content.

Health education will give us the opportunity to drive up the consistency and quality of pupils’ knowledge about physical and mental health. Physical health and mental wellbeing are interlinked. It is important that pupils understand that good physical health contributes to good mental wellbeing, and this starts with pupils being taught about the benefits of daily exercise, good nutrition and sufficient sleep, and about the positive impact that self-care techniques can have on their health and wellbeing.

Effective teaching will give children the knowledge to recognise and seek help for poor mental and physical health and support them to promote positive mental and physical wellbeing and to thrive both at and beyond school.

[Norman Lamb (North Norfolk) (LD)]

I welcome the inclusion of mental health and wellbeing in the compulsory curriculum, but how it is taught—ensuring that teachers are properly trained and that the training is sufficiently resourced—will be critical. Does the Minister have an expectation of how many staff will be trained to teach mental health and wellbeing in schools?

[Nick Gibb]

The right hon. Gentleman, a former Health Minister, raises an important point. We want to make sure that the training material is available—we are allocating £6 million in the relevant financial year to prepare and produce essential resources—and that training, both online and face to face, is available so that our teachers are well equipped to teach this subject properly.

[Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab)]

The Minister may be aware that on Monday the all-party group on social media and young people’s mental health and wellbeing, which I co-chair, published its report, “#NewFilters: to manage the impact of social media on young people’s mental health and wellbeing”. The report makes recommendations on improving digital education. Will he consider looking at the report and meeting me and the hon. Member for Hazel Grove (Mr Wragg), the co-chair, to discuss the recommendations and see if they could be implemented across the English education system? I will be doing the same with Welsh and Scottish Education Ministers.

[Nick Gibb]

Yes, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has just told me that he and I would be keen to meet the hon. Gentleman and the other members of the all-party group to discuss these really important issues. The guidance refers to the importance of teaching children about the importance of rationing time spent online, given that it detracts from other aspects of life, such as sleeping, friends, talking to parents and doing homework.

I acknowledge the significant input we had from external organisations and educational professionals, from the tens of thousands of individuals who contributed to the call for evidence and public consultation, and indeed from right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House who contributed constructively.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

One reason I support the Government’s move is that all the evidence shows that good sex and relationships education enables youngsters to delay their first experience of sex, make healthier decisions about their sexual relationships and to enter into healthier sexual relationships throughout their whole lives. Does the Minister not find it utterly depressing that the one bit that people seem to object to is that pupils might be “exposed”—not my word, but other people’s—to the fact that there are homosexuals in society, and is that not deeply painful to gay parents, to children who might be gay or have gay uncles, aunts or other family members and to gay teachers?

[Nick Gibb]

One of the key elements of relationships education is ensuring that children are aware, including in primary schools, that loving families can be made up of two mothers, two fathers or one mother and one father. Children are being taught that other family structures are just as loving and caring as their own. There is a consensus on that among all right hon. and hon. Members.

The responses and submissions have helped to finalise the statutory guidance and regulations. It is clear, as was reflected in the Government consultation response, that there are understandable and legitimate areas of contention, but it is also clear that for many people the subjects and their content are important to help equip children and young people to manage the challenges they face. It is important to provide clear and concise guidance for schools. In reviewing responses and determining the final content, we have retained a focus on the core principles for the new subjects that Parliament endorsed through the Children and Social Work Act 2017.



Those principles are that the subjects should help to keep children safe, help to prepare them for the world in which they are growing up, including its laws, and help to foster respect for others and for difference. The content included must be developmentally and age-appropriate, and it must be taught in a sensitive and inclusive way that respects the backgrounds and beliefs of pupils. We believe that in developing the accompanying statutory guidance and required content for these subjects, we have struck the right balance between prescribing the core knowledge that all pupils should be taught and allowing flexibility for schools to design a curriculum that is relevant to their pupils.

Parents and carers are the prime teachers for children, and schools complement and reinforce that role by building on what pupils learn at home. That is why we decided to strengthen the requirement for schools to consult parents on their relationships and relationships and sex education policy by enshrining it in the regulations as well as the guidance.

[Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)]

Will the Minister give way?

[Nick Gibb]

I will not, if the hon. Lady will forgive me.

Schools must consult parents on their proposed policy and any subsequent reviews; giving them the time and the opportunity to influence the curriculum and discuss their views on age-appropriate content. We have also retained the long-standing ability for parents to request that their children be withdrawn from sex education. When a primary school chooses to teach sex education, parents will have the right to request that their children be withdrawn, and that must be granted by the headteacher. At secondary schools, in the case of sex education within RSE, the school should respect the parents’ request to withdraw the child, unless there are very exceptional circumstances, up to and until three terms before the child turns 16. At that point, if the child wishes to take part in sex education, the headteacher should ensure that they receive it in one of those terms.

[George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con)]

I welcome the intention behind this move. As a parent, I see the pressure to which our children are subjected today and the extraordinary anxiety that is caused by many of the influences that they are under. It must be right to help them, particularly in relation to health. However, may I ask my right hon. Friend a question about parental opt-out? It has always been our party’s view, and the view of the House, that we should tread very gently when we step, as a state, between parent and child. Will he reassure me that there is some protection when it comes to the basis on which the state will decide that there are exceptional circumstances in which a parent can be overruled?

[Nick Gibb]

My hon. Friend should be reassured that they will be very exceptional circumstances. For example, if a child has experienced a sexual incident, perhaps with another child, or inappropriate touching, a headteacher may decide not to grant the request. The key point is, however, that it will be the circumstances of the child and not the views of the headteacher that will lead to that decision.

We could not have retained the right to withdraw as it currently stands, because an absolute parental right up to the point when the child is 18 years old is no longer compatible with English case law and the European convention on human rights. However, we have delivered on our commitment to maintain a right for parents to withdraw their children from sex education that is also compatible with the law.

We are committed to ensuring that every school will have the support that it needs to deliver these subjects to a high and consistent quality. We will therefore be investing in tools that will improve schools’ practice, such as a supplementary guide to support the delivery of the content set out in the guidance, targeted support on materials and training. As I said to the right hon. Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb), we have up to £6 million to invest in the development of those tools this year. We are also encouraging as many schools as possible to start teaching the subjects from September 2019, so that we can learn lessons and share good practice ahead of compulsory teaching.

[Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) (Lab)]

Will the Minister give way?

[Nick Gibb]

I will not, because I am about to finish my speech.

We believe that our proposals are a landmark step. They will bring existing guidance into the 21st century, and will introduce new content that will help to equip children and young people with the knowledge that they need to form healthy relationships, lead healthy lives and be happy and safe in the world. I commend them to the House.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

--- Later in debate ---

[Nick Gibb]

With the leave of the House, I will conclude this debate.

We have listened to some superb and heartfelt speeches right across the House, from my right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Mrs Miller), the hon. Members for Ilford North (Wes Streeting) and for Rotherham (Sarah Champion), my hon. Friends the Members for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) and for Bexhill and Battle (Huw Merriman), the right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms)—yes to his invitation; officials would be pleased to attend the roundtable he is holding in his role as the chair of the all-party group—the hon. Members for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood), for Bury North (James Frith), for Great Grimsby (Melanie Onn), for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard) and for Birmingham, Yardley (Jess Phillips) and the right hon. Members for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Liam Byrne) and for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb). I am grateful for the support that hon. Members right across the House have given to the regulations.

The regulations have also had support from beyond the House, from the Catholic Education Service, the Church of England, the PSHE Association, the National Children’s Bureau, Mencap, the End Violence Against Women Coalition and the Board of Deputies. The director of the Catholic Education Service has said:

“We welcome this commitment by the Government to improve relationships and sex education”.

I apologise that in the two minutes left I cannot respond to the many important issues raised by right hon. and hon. Members, but I will write to them with my comments.

I believe that we all share the ambition to ensure that children and young people have the knowledge to help keep themselves safe, to be prepared for the world in which they are growing up and to respect others and to respect difference. The regulations give us the opportunity to build a consistent foundation across all schools, and I commend them to the House.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Lindsay Hoyle)]

The question is that motion 3 as on the Order Paper be agreed to. As many of that opinion say Aye.